Els 7 pecats culturals - #7 Luxúria

Luxúria, gola, avarícia, paresa, ira, enveja i superbia.

Lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride.

El món de la cultura està carregat de pecats, i de pecadors.

The world of culture is filled with sins and sinners.

Amb aquesta sèrie de 7 podcasts hem volgut fer un repàs d'algunes situacions

With this series of 7 podcasts, we wanted to review some situations.

on els pecats capitals han pres protagonisme a l'univers cultural.

where the capital sins have taken center stage in the cultural universe.

Benvinguts als 7 pecats culturals.

Welcome to the 7 cultural sins.

Benvinguts a Culturalia Ràdio.

Welcome to Culturalia Radio.

És ben curiós que el sexe, que és l'origen de qualsevol vida,

It is quite curious that sex, which is the origin of any life,

sigui alhora un dels motius més grans de censura de la història.

be at the same time one of the greatest reasons for censorship in history.

Llibres, pel·lícules i teatre han patit prohibicions des de fa centenars d'anys

Books, movies, and theater have faced bans for hundreds of years.

al considerar que hi ha certs temes que no han de tractar-se.

considering that there are certain topics that should not be addressed.

La Inquisició ja va prohibir centenars d'obres de teatre al segle XIII,

The Inquisition already banned hundreds of plays in the 13th century,

tant seculars com religioses, parlant d'una paraula, la luxúria,

both secular and religious, speaking of a word, lust,

que encara avui dia segueix sent un dels motius més grans per prohibir la llibertat d'expressió.

that even today remains one of the biggest reasons to prohibit freedom of expression.

A l'estat veí del sud, la dictadura franquista va ser

In the neighboring southern state, the Francoist dictatorship was

un moment d'especial intolerància cap al teatre.

A moment of special intolerance towards the theater.

La censura es capçava totes les representacions eliminant frases,

Censorship was cutting off all representations by eliminating phrases.

escenes completes o, fins i tot, obres en la seva totalitat.

complete scenes or, even, works in their entirety.

Sovint, no era tant el text el que els preocupava,

Often, it was not so much the text that concerned them,

sinó la llargada de les faldilles o la profunditat dels escots,

but the length of the skirts or the depth of the necklines,

i, a vegades, fins i tot, peces musicals que podien fer pensar coses

and, sometimes, even musical pieces that could make one think about things

que es veu que no era de sent de pensar.

it is clear that it was not sensible to think.

Un dels molts exemples és el de l'obra La camisa, de Laura Olmo.

One of the many examples is the work La camisa, by Laura Olmo.

Aquesta obra va ser censurada el 1960

This work was censored in 1960.

i, després de moltes modificacions, va ser aprovada l'any 1962.

and, after many modifications, it was approved in 1962.

Però, a la nit de l'asset general, l'autor va rebre una visita de dos funcionaris

But, on the night of the general raid, the author received a visit from two officials.

de l'estat que li van notificar que no se li autoritzava l'estrena

from the state that notified him that his premiere was not authorized

si no modificava una sèrie de passatges que, segons la censura franquista,

if I did not modify a series of passages that, according to Francoist censorship,

eren de mal gust moral.

they were of bad moral taste.

L'obra es veu que tenia un llenguatge molt col·loquial pel que fa al sexe

The work evidently had a very colloquial language regarding sex.

i, a més, el tractava d'una manera molt desenfadada.

And moreover, he treated him in a very casual manner.

Res de l'altre món, i si avui ho veiessin els responsables d'una televisió pública,

Nothing from the other world, and if today the people responsible for a public television saw it,

com a molt posarien un número 13 abans de passar l'obra per televisió.

At most, they would put a number 13 before broadcasting the work on television.

Aquest és un exemple del que ha fet la censura per salvar-nos de la luxúria.

This is an example of what censorship has done to save us from lust.

I n'hi ha centenars com aquests que encara avui dia perduren en el món del teatre.

There are hundreds like these that still endure in the world of theater today.

Potser la intensitat és diferent, però un mugró o un cul

Perhaps the intensity is different, but a nipple or a butt.

segueix sent motiu de censura, encara ple segle XXI.

it remains a reason for censorship, even in the 21st century.

No fa massa mesos, el teatre Tantarantana veia que li tancaven la seva pàgina a les xarxes socials,

Not many months ago, the Tantarantana theatre saw its social media page shut down.

Facebook, elegant que la foto del cul d'un home era contingut pornogràfic.

Facebook deemed that a photo of a man's butt was pornographic content.

Luxúria, teatre i llibertat d'expressió, avui als 7 pecats culturals, amb l'actriu Irina Roble.

Lust, theater, and freedom of expression, today on the 7 cultural sins, with actress Irina Roble.

Hola Irina, què tal?

Hello Irina, how are you?

Hola, bon dia.

Hello, good morning.

Què creus que hi ha hagut d'aquest component de censura per part, no sé, ja no del Vaticà,

What do you think about this component of censorship on the part of, I don't know, not just the Vatican,

sinó de qualsevol que volgués controlar una miqueta la societat,

but of anyone who wanted to control society a little bit,

és a dir, quan es va a la dictadura, qualsevol persona que volgués controlar una miqueta més el pensament,

that is to say, when one goes to dictatorship, anyone who wanted to control thought a little more,

per què el teatre ha sigut de les primeres coses en què s'ha posat cullerada a l'hora de prohibir?

Why has theatre been one of the first things to be meddled with when it comes to prohibition?

El teatre té una llibertat i d'una manera molt clara arriba al missatge, no?

The theater has a freedom and very clearly conveys the message, right?

Sí que evidentment, no només se'ns explica una història, sinó que l'hem d'interpretar,

Yes, obviously, we are not only told a story, but we also have to interpret it.

però és molt directa, és un art totalment viu i que es crea de just el moment efímer

but it is very direct, it is a totally living art that is created from the very ephemeral moment

on s'és explicat i en el moment on es crea es desfà, no?

Where it is explained and at the moment it is created, it disappears, right?

I aquest moment compartit entre públic...

And this shared moment between the audience...

i actors és tan heavy, és tan impactant, que d'alguna manera cala moltíssim el missatge, no?

And the actors are so heavy, it's so impactful, that in a way it really sinks the message, right?

I arriba, doncs això, d'una manera molt directa.

And so, this comes in a very direct way.

Té pocs filtres, no?, també, el teatre, o sigui, sou capaços de...

It has few filters, doesn't it? Also, the theater, I mean, you are capable of...

quan comença una obra de teatre, doncs sí, és veritat que hi ha un guió,

when a play begins, yes, it is true that there is a script,

però us poseu tant en el personatge que a partir d'aquell moment és com si el mateix personatge fóssiu vosaltres.

but you get so into the character that from that moment on it feels as if you are the character yourself.

Sí, d'alguna manera el teatre crea uns codis...

Yes, in some way theater creates certain codes...

crea, doncs, unes convencions per crear el llenguatge amb el que tu estàs explicant la història.

So create some conventions to create the language with which you are telling the story.

I una vegada el públic entra en aquests codis, després, doncs és...

And once the audience enters into these codes, then, well, it's...

pots volar, no?, pots fer ciència-ficció, pots crear realitats alternatives,

you can fly, right?, you can do science fiction, you can create alternative realities,

altres possibles mons, i aquest poder creador, que de sobte el veus fet realitatal d'un escenari,

other possible worlds, and this creative power, which suddenly you see made real in a scenario,

té tanta força que tu com a espectador et sents interpel·lat d'una manera molt...

has so much power that you, as a spectator, feel addressed in a very...

molt clara i directa, no?

very clear and direct, isn't it?

I per tant, aquesta... o sigui, com a espectador, tu quan estàs mirant un espectacle,

And therefore, this... I mean, as a spectator, when you are watching a performance,

tens una perspectiva sobre el que t'estan explicant

you have a perspective on what they are explaining to you

que et permet agafar una mirada superobjectiva

that allows you to take a superobjective look

i veure molt clarament les coses que potser estàs visquent tu, no?

And see very clearly the things that you might be experiencing, right?

I fa aquest reflex d'una forma tan directa que...

And it makes this reflection in such a direct way that...

que et dona a tu una força com a espectador de, ostres, puc canviar coses,

that gives you as a viewer a strength of, wow, I can change things,

puc... realment, això també m'està passant a mi, jo em podria passar.

I can... really, this is also happening to me, I could go through it.

I aquesta t'interpel·la l'acció, no?

And this challenges your action, right?

És... no només els personatges actuen, sinó que tu com a espectador has d'estar

It is... not only do the characters act, but you as a spectator must be.

des d'una escolta activa total, i potser és de les arts on com a espectador has d'estar més viu,

from a total active listening, and perhaps it is in the arts where as a spectator you have to be more alive,

et demana més implicació, no només a nivells...

it demands more involvement from you, not just at levels...

a nivell sentimental, que evidentment, doncs, et toca, et transforma o et remou coses,

on a sentimental level, which obviously touches you, transforms you, or stirs things up.

sinó que també t'implica una reflexió i t'implica un acte social

but it also involves reflection and entails a social act

en què després et genera opinió, no?

in which then it generates an opinion for you, doesn't it?

Et genera esperit crític.

It generates critical thinking.

I això segurament és el que fa por en el poder,

And this is surely what frightens in power,

que com a espectador siguem crítics i puguem tenir opinió.

that as spectators we should be critical and able to have an opinion.

I potser per això, doncs, el teatre s'ha utilitzat,

And maybe for that reason, then, theater has been used,

en molts casos, per transmetre missatges, per ser reivindicatius,

in many cases, to convey messages, to be assertive,

bueno, per generar consciència,

well, to raise awareness,

i és un art molt fàcil en aquest aspecte.

And it is a very easy art in this aspect.

I, per altra banda, doncs, també és molt fàcil de prohibir,

And, on the other hand, it is also very easy to prohibit.

perquè, clar, un llibre potser pot passar més de demà, en març,

because, of course, a book might be able to last beyond tomorrow, in March,

sense que es pugui veure, però una obra de teatre,

without it being seen, but a play,

si és una obra amb un mínim de gran d'àrea, doncs és molt més complicat, no, això?

If it is a work with a minimum large area, then it is much more complicated, right?

Per tant, els que censuraven,

Therefore, those who censored,

doncs era molt més fàcil censurar-ho, m'imagino.

well, it was much easier to censor it, I suppose.

Sí, segurament, jo penso, bueno, a l'època era molt...

Yes, surely, I think, well, at the time it was very...

es presentava l'inspector, no?, a l'època franquista, per exemple,

The inspector was introduced, right?, in the Franco era, for example,

podies estar fent un Lorca, de sobte entrava a mig espectacle

You could be doing a Lorca, suddenly entering in the middle of the performance.

un inspector d'aquests de... del règim, no?

An inspector like those from... the regime, right?

Un home molt gris, segur.

A very grey man, for sure.

Sí, i que deia, queda... queda sospesa des d'aquest moment aquesta funció,

Yes, and it said, this function is suspended from this moment on.

i els actors i el públic, doncs, tothom cap a casa, no?

And the actors and the audience, then, everyone goes home, right?

Ara, evidentment, ens costaria molt més fer això.

Now, obviously, it would be much harder for us to do this.

Però sí que fa poc va haver-hi molt rebombori,

But there was a lot of commotion not long ago,

perquè a Madrid, no sé si era el Centro Dramàtico Nacional,

because in Madrid, I don't know if it was the National Dramatic Center,

no recordo, un d'aquests teatres públics,

I don't remember, one of these public theaters,

una de les obres programades es va desprogramar a últim moment, no?

One of the scheduled performances was cancelled at the last minute, wasn't it?

I la dona, que és la directora artística del teatre,

And the woman, who is the artistic director of the theater,

va alegar, doncs, que políticament l'estaven apretant,

he argued, therefore, that they were politically pressuring him,

li estaven fent pressió perquè aquesta obra saltés de la cartelleria, no?

They were pressuring him to remove this work from the poster, weren't they?

I de sobte...

And suddenly...

Clar, es va generar molt rebombori, perquè es deien,

Of course, there was a lot of commotion because they said,

vale, doncs, si tu com a director artístic no tens el poder

Okay, then, if you as the artistic director don't have the power.

de decidir què vols en els teus escenaris,

to decide what you want in your scenarios,

i realment continuem influenciats per una línia

And we really continue to be influenced by a line.

que ve donada de més a dalt,

that comes from further up,

apagar i vamonos, no?

Let's turn it off and go, right?

O sigui, que penso que, bueno, d'alguna manera,

So, I think that, well, in some way,

la censura, evidentment, doncs, vivim en un país molt més lliure,

censorship, obviously, because we live in a much freer country,

afortunadament, que fa uns anys,

fortunately, a few years ago,

però, d'alguna manera, molt subtil, segueix dins de les escletxes,

but, in some way, very subtly, it continues within the cracks,

eh...

eh...

doncs, allà infiltrant-se, no?

so, there infiltrating, right?

I dient-nos, doncs, de què es pot parlar i de què no es pot parlar.

And telling us, then, what can be talked about and what cannot be talked about.

És que mentre hi hagi algú que mana i algú que és manat, diguéssim,

It's just that as long as there is someone who commands and someone who is commanded, let's say,

jo crec que les coses seran així sempre, no?

I believe that things will always be this way, right?

El que mana, amb més o menys autoritat i amb més o menys criteri,

The one who commands, with more or less authority and with more or less judgment,

voldrà imposar allò que, bueno, per allò que l'han triat

he will want to impose what, well, for what he has been chosen

i l'han posat a certs llocs.

And they have placed him in certain places.

I qui manava abans era l'Església Catòlica,

And who ruled before was the Catholic Church,

i l'Església Catòlica també ha sigut gran responsable, en gran part,

and the Catholic Church has also been largely responsible, to a great extent,

doncs, de fer-nos veure l'església,

so, to show us the church,

l'auxúria i el teatre, en molts casos, com una cosa dolenta, eh?

The auxiliary and the theater, in many cases, as a bad thing, right?

Parlàvem abans d'això, no?, la profunditat d'un escot

We were talking about this before, right? The depth of a neckline.

o la llargada d'una faldilla,

or the length of a skirt,

que era suficient com per tallar una escena

that it was enough to cut a scene

o per fer fora aquella actriu i posar-ne una altra.

or to get rid of that actress and put in another one.

Sí, és supercuriós, no?, es fa com molt impactant,

Yes, it's super curious, isn't it? It becomes very impactful.

però veiem que avui en dia també l'Església té poder

but we see that nowadays the Church also has power

sobre nosaltres en altres aspectes, no?,

about us in other aspects, right?

i sobretot en el nostre país,

and above all in our country,

que encara hi ha temes, doncs, que són...

that there are still issues, then, that are...

tabús, no?, com pot ser l'avortament

taboos, right?, how can abortion be

o coses que, fins i tot com a artista,

or things that, even as an artist,

quan ho poses dalt d'un escenari o dius,

when you put it on a stage or say,

vale, volem parlar d'això, penses,

okay, we want to talk about this, do you think,

ostres, potser això després no m'ho compraran,

wow, maybe they won't buy this for me later,

potser això on estem posant tants esforços i...

maybe this is where we are putting so much effort and...

no?, i estem apostant en una producció que és crítica

Right? And we are betting on a production that is critical.

a quin d'orra, a quin encaix tindrà,

to which socket, to which fit will it have,

perquè no deixem de ser, bueno, una societat encara

because we are still, well, a society

que estem creixent, no?, i ens estem fent grans.

that we are growing, right?, and we are getting older.

Per tant, creus que hi ha autocensura, fins i tot,

Therefore, do you think there is self-censorship, even,

dels mateixos creadors de teatre a l'hora de fer

from the same creators of theater when it comes to making

segons quines coses o procurar no fer-ne segons quines altres

depending on certain things or trying not to do according to certain others

perquè no saps ben bé...

because you don't really know...

Ja no tant si no agradarà, sinó el que deies, eh?,

It's no longer so much about whether it will be liked, but what you were saying, right?

que al final estàs fent també un producte comercial,

that in the end you are also creating a commercial product,

poc o molt, i per tant, si no te'l compren,

little or much, and therefore, if they don't buy it from you,

ostres, hauràs de viure d'una altra cosa.

Wow, you'll have to live off something else.

Penso que són coses que es tenen en compte.

I think these are things that are taken into account.

Evidentment, com a creadors,

Obviously, as creators,

hem d'intentar ser lliures,

we must try to be free,

perquè si no, som nosaltres,

because if not, it is us,

qui ho serà, no?, i treballem des del joc,

who will it be, right?, and we work from play,

sempre des de jugar al teatre.

always from playing in the theater.

És purament un joc amb unes regles,

It is purely a game with some rules,

però es tracta d'això,

but it's about this,

i d'investigar, de buscar recursos,

and to investigate, to search for resources,

d'anar sempre més enllà de les coses

of going always further beyond things

i poder donar punts de vista diferents.

and to be able to provide different points of view.

Llavors, sí que, evidentment,

Then, yes, of course,

quan et planteges una producció,

when you plan a production,

clar, tu el que vols és que això

Of course, what you want is that this

tingui molts bolos,

have many gigs,

tingui, doncs, molt recorregut.

So, it has a lot of distance to cover.

I és cert que hi ha coses

And it is true that there are things

que pot ser que diguis, ostres,

"That you might say, wow,"

això ens serà més difícil de comprar.

this will be harder for us to buy.

Però, no ho sé, jo tinc fe en aquest aspecte

But, I don't know, I have faith in this aspect.

i penso que els creadors anem una miqueta més enllà

I think that creators go a little further.

i que, justament, si estem en aquest ofici,

and that, precisely, if we are in this profession,

no és per fer-nos rics,

it's not to make us rich,

sinó per poder explicar les històries

but to be able to tell the stories

que ens venen de gust explicar.

that we feel like telling.

I això, a vegades, va en detrinent, doncs,

And this, at times, goes in detriment, therefore,

de tenir una tranquil·litat econòmica

of having economic tranquility

o d'altres coses, no?

or other things, right?

Però penso que el poder creador, a vegades,

But I think that the creative power, sometimes,

ens estira més que

it stretches us more than

que, a vegades, ens estira més que

that, at times, stretches us more than

el que és políticament correcte

what is politically correct

o el que ens pot.

or what can us.

Bueno, doncs, això, no?

Well, then, that's it, right?

Que potser no hi traurem tants diners,

That we might not make as much money from it,

però sí que és el que tenim ganes d'explicar

but it is indeed what we are eager to explain

i com ho volem explicar.

and how we want to explain it.

Ara, quan m'ho explicaves, precisament,

Now, when you were explaining it to me, precisely,

feies servir una paraula que m'ha agradat molt,

you used a word that I really liked,

que és la paraula joc, no?

What is the word game, right?

Definies el teatre com un joc.

You define theatre as a game.

Ostres, ha de ser molt guai

Wow, it must be really cool.

tenir una feina en la que

to have a job in which

et dediques a jugar, no?, d'alguna manera.

You spend your time playing, don't you? In a way.

I suposo que quan perds aquesta il·lusió pel joc

I suppose that when you lose this enthusiasm for the game

i ho converteixes en una altra cosa

and you turn it into something else

és quan la feina costa, potser, una mica més, no?

It's when the work costs, perhaps, a little more, right?

Totalment.

Totally.

Sempre, quan ho traslladem a altres idiomes,

Always, when we translate it into other languages,

que diem play theater,

we say play theater,

jouer, le théâtre,

play, the theater

sempre s'utilitza aquesta paraula.

This word is always used.

En català i castellà ha quedat una miqueta més sosa.

In Catalan and Spanish, it has become a bit more bland.

Però sí que jugar a teatre

But yes, playing theatre.

és preciós, no?

It's beautiful, isn't it?

Justament perquè et dóna aquesta llibertat

Precisely because it gives you this freedom.

de permetre't

to allow you

anar més enllà de les coses,

go beyond things,

de fer ciència-ficció.

to do science fiction.

És que a mi m'encanta aquest concepte.

I really love this concept.

Perquè a vegades pensem

Because sometimes we think

que el teatre és convencional

that the theater is conventional

i que hem d'explicar històries lineals

and that we have to explain linear stories

i que hem d'explicar coses més clàssiques.

And we have to explain more classic things.

Però, ostres,

But, wow,

les eines que et dóna el teatre

the tools that theater gives you

et donen unes ales

they give you wings

que penso que fins i tot més que el cinema.

that I think is even more than cinema.

Perquè al cinema, al final,

Because in the cinema, in the end,

la càmera et diu on has de mirar.

the camera tells you where to look.

Et dóna el lloc

It gives you the place.

on has de posar,

where you have to put

el punt de vista, no?

The point of view, right?

I, en canvi, el teatre t'ofereix una escena

I, on the other hand, the theatre offers you a scene.

potser més a prop de la pintura, no?

maybe closer to the painting, right?

Que tu mires el quadre

That you look at the painting.

i decideixes on vols posar

and you decide if you want to put

la teva atenció.

your attention.

I amb el teatre també ens passa això, no?

And the same happens with theater, right?

I...

I...

Tornant una mica

Turning back a bit

al tema de la luxúria,

to the topic of lust,

pensava en que important va ser

I was thinking about how important it was.

per exemple, després de grans èpoques de repressió,

for example, after long periods of repression,

doncs,

so,

el tema de la revista, no?

the topic of the magazine, right?

El teatre de revista,

The revue theatre,

de cabaret,

of cabaret,

de... tots aquests...

of... all these...

teatres que es permetien

theatres that were allowed

justament, doncs, sortien,

just, then, they were leaving,

i a la postguerra, doncs, es permeten

and in the post-war period, therefore, they are allowed

justament ensenyar els escots,

just showing the cleavage,

dir coses picants,

say spicy things,

utilitzar cançons

use songs

disfressades per poder expressar

dressed up to be able to express

tot aquest desig...

all this desire...

Jugar més que mai, no?

Play more than ever, right?

Sí, sí, no? I com a vegades, com més

Yes, yes, right? And as sometimes, the more.

reprimits estem, més busquem, doncs,

we are repressed, yet we seek, therefore,

després la...

after the...

necessitem, al final,

we need, in the end,

suposo que aquest desig necessita

I suppose this wish needs

aflorar per algun lloc, no?

to surface somewhere, right?

I des de la part artística

And from the artistic side

busquem com

we search how

això que ens prohibeixen,

this that they forbid us,

de quin camí li donem perquè pugui sortir

Which way do we give him so he can go out?

a la llum i poder-ho

to the light and be able to

compartir. Home, ara que parles de

share. Man, now that you mention

luxúria i teatre en aquest

lust and theatre in this

aspecte, no?, en aquest sentit que li donaves,

aspect, right?, in this sense that you gave it,

és molt maca

it's very pretty

la història del

the history of

Moulin Rouge, no?, per exemple, un català

Moulin Rouge, right?, for example, a Catalan.

que se'n va a París, un català que

who is going to Paris, a Catalan who

se'n va a sales

he's going to sales

de festes de l'època, i que

of festivities of the time, and that

diu, escolta'm, fem un pas més enllà i

says, listen to me, let's take a step further and

fem alguna cosa més arriscada, no?

Let's do something more daring, shall we?

I, a més a més, té els nassos, o els pebrots, digue-li

And, furthermore, he/she has the guts, or the balls, call it what you want.

com vulguis, d'obrir-ho

As you wish, to open it.

just al dia de la inauguració de la

just on the day of the inauguration of the

Fira Mundial, no?, amb la qual cosa,

World Fair, right?, with which,

bueno, hi ha un

well, there is a

rebombori a París al·lucinant sobre

amazing uproar in Paris about

el Moulin Rouge i sobre,

the Moulin Rouge and above,

bueno, que sembla

well, what does it seem?

que tothom que entri allà

that everyone who enters there

vagi a la gola del pecat,

go to the throat of sin,

però tothom hi vol anar, precisament, no?, i

but everyone wants to go there, precisely, right?, and

és el que el fa famós, i que encara avui dia

it is what makes him famous, and that even today

perdura més de cent anys després, no?

It endures for more than a hundred years afterwards, right?

Doncs sí, mira, vull dir,

Well, yes, look, I mean,

el paral·lel mateix, no?, el paral·lel de Barcelona

the parallel itself, right? the parallel of Barcelona

era on s'hi coia

it was where it was cooked

aquest esperit

this spirit

d'això, també, de plomes,

of this, too, of feathers,

de parlar de sexe lliurement,

to speak freely about sex,

i també era

and also was

considerat com el carrer del

considered as the street of the

pecat, no?, perquè s'hi reunia allà,

sin, right?, because he was meeting there,

doncs, puà,

well, ugh,

a més, sempre, també,

besides, always, also,

des de la

from the

paraula,

word,

des d'un lloc molt intel·ligent, no?,

from a very smart place, right?

per què no parlar de sexe

Why not talk about sex?

des d'un lloc

from a place

molt més encisador, segurament,

much more enchanting, surely,

que no el pecat en si,

that not the sin itself,

sinó més des d'aquesta sutileza, no?

but rather from this subtlety, right?

Hi ha molta elegància, també, no?,

There is a lot of elegance, too, isn’t there?

a nivell de vestuari, per exemple, molta elegància,

in terms of clothing, for example, a lot of elegance,

la gent que hi anava no eren

the people who went there were not

replegats, sinó que era l'altra societat,

gathered, but it was the other society,

fins i tot, no?, que després

even, right?, that later

l'endemà feien veure que no hi havien anat

The next day they pretended that they hadn't gone.

i potser s'anaven a missa i es trobaven allà,

and perhaps they went to mass and met there,

també, no?, però

also, right?, but

que no era la imatge que podem

that it wasn't the image that we can

tenir del pecat, no?

to have from sin, right?

I suposo que fugia molt de,

I suppose I was running away a lot from,

tot i que si volia equiparar l'època,

although he wanted to equate the time,

fugia molt de la prostitució

it fled a lot from prostitution

que s'exercia al carrer i que no tenia res a veure.

that took place in the street and that had nothing to do with it.

Totalment. Mira, parlava amb la meva

Totally. Look, I was talking to my...

àvia l'altre, bueno, fa uns dies,

grandma the other, well, a few days ago,

m'explicava que havien anat al

he was explaining to me that they had gone to the

Moulin Rouge, però

Moulin Rouge, but

que es van espantar molt, perquè van anar

they were very scared because they went

amb el meu avi i uns amics, i cap al carrer,

with my grandfather and some friends, and towards the street,

just davant del Moulin Rouge, doncs,

just in front of the Moulin Rouge, then,

unes dones, a l'època, eh?, unes dones

some women, at the time, huh?, some women

es van obrir una

they opened one

jaqueta de pell i anaven nues.

leather jacket and were naked.

I clar, va ser la primera vegada,

And of course, it was the first time,

que van veure

that they saw

una persona nua,

a naked person,

així que ensenyés la seva nuesa

so she showed her nakedness

d'aquesta manera. I que els va impactar tant

in this way. And that it impacted them so much.

que el meu avi va dir, ui, no, no, no,

that my grandfather said, oh no, no, no,

no hi entrem. Llavors van anar

we don’t get into it. Then they went

al Berger, al

to the Berger, to the

Folies Berger,

Folies Bergère,

que era, doncs, similar. I clar,

what was, then, similar. And of course,

la meva àvia em deia, és que era preciós,

my grandmother used to tell me, it was beautiful,

és que eren quadres plàstics on

it's that they were plastic frames where

totes despullades, només portaven

all naked, they were only wearing

potser els mugrons tapats

perhaps the covered nipples

amb una cosa, i era

with one thing, and it was

preciós, i era una

precious, and it was a

cosa que a Espanya no vèiem en aquell moment,

which we did not see in Spain at that time,

no?, i que era

no?, and what was it?

elegància pura, però

pure elegance, but

que també hi havia, llavors, molts desits,

that there were also many desires then,

molta luxúria, però

a lot of lust, but

d'una manera molt elegant.

in a very elegant way.

Que no és incompatible, eh?

It's not incompatible, right?

Evidentment, sí, sí, sí. És la demostració

Obviously, yes, yes, yes. It is the demonstration.

que no és incompatible. Vols dir que funcionaria

that is not incompatible. Do you mean it would work?

aquí un cabaret d'aquest estil a Andorra o no?

Is there a cabaret of this style in Andorra or not?

Home, per què no? Per què no?

Man, why not? Why not?

Seria una proposta

It would be a proposal.

arriscada i penso que

risky and I think that

és una gran manera

it's a great way

d'explicar coses des d'una manera

of explaining things in a way

divertida i rient-nos una mica de nosaltres

fun and laughing a little at ourselves

mateixos, també, no? De fet, la

same, too, right? In fact, the

pel·lícula Moulin Rouge, que

Moulin Rouge movie, which

explica

explain

amb l'ull de Hollywood, lògicament,

with the eye of Hollywood, logically,

i molt desviada de la realitat,

and very detached from reality,

però sí que intenta fer una fotografia

but he does try to take a photograph

d'aquella època,

from that time,

es veu clarament això, l'elegància,

this is clearly seen, the elegance,

els calés,

the money,

també, perquè

also, because

transpoava una miqueta de luxe

it transported a little bit of luxury

i de benestar, eh?, tot això.

And well-being, huh?, all of that.

O sigui, aquella luxúria sortint

So, that lust coming out.

d'una repressió molt forta i

of a very strong repression and

és curiós com no hi ha un pas entremig, no?,

It's curious how there's no step in between, is there?

sinó que es passa del zero al cent

but rather it goes from zero to a hundred

amb molt poc, eh?, a la que ens deixen els humans

with very little, huh?, as soon as humans let us

ens esverdem.

we get anxious.

Clar, els pecats... Sí, sí, sí.

Sure, the sins... Yes, yes, yes.

Bueno, suposo que és el que comentàvem, no?,

Well, I suppose it’s what we were talking about, right?

que necessitem expressar-nos

that we need to express ourselves

i la humanitat estem feta,

and humanity is made,

doncs, de vicis,

well, of vices,

de passions

of passions

i tot això necessitem

And all of this we need.

expressar-nos d'alguna manera

express ourselves in some way

i, per sort, doncs, la cultura hi posa

And, fortunately, culture plays a role there.

paraules, hi posa sentiments,

words, they contain feelings,

ens dona les eines

gives us the tools

per poder-ho viure-ho,

to be able to live it,

per poder-ho veure-ho i viure-ho.

to be able to see it and live it.

I això, doncs,

And this, then,

no sé si hi ha alguna altra cosa

I don't know if there is anything else.

que ens ho permeti més que

that allows us more than

la cultura i les arts

culture and the arts

en aquest aspecte.

in this aspect.

Ostres, aquesta reflexió, per acabar

Wow, this reflection, to conclude.

el programa, l'he trobat supermaca

I found the program super beautiful.

i superinteressant. Irina,

It's super interesting. Irina,

t'agraïm moltíssim, doncs,

we thank you very much, then,

ser nosaltres els pecats

be us the sins

capitals.

capitals.

De ben segur que trobarem alguna altra excusa

I'm sure we will find some other excuse.

per retrobar-nos en algun altre moment

to meet again at another time

i seguir parlant, potser no de luxúria, però sí

And continue talking, perhaps not about lust, but yes

segur de teatre i de cultura

theater and culture insurance

en algun altre entorn. Moltes gràcies.

in some other environment. Thank you very much.

Encantadíssima. Gràcies a vosaltres.

Delighted. Thank you all.