Aurora Madaula i Carme Forcadell - PSC, unitat i catalanisme

Jo me n'havia fet un fart d'escoltar referèndum legal i acordat.

I had gotten fed up with hearing about a legal and agreed referendum.

No, serveix per escarmentar, és a dir, per dir, clar, si ho torneu a fer, mireu el que us passarà.

No, it serves to serve as a warning, that is to say, to say, clearly, if you do it again, look at what will happen to you.

Ara no hi ha les condicions per fer el referèndum, ara no hi són, s'han de tornar a crear.

Now there are no conditions to hold the referendum, now they don't exist, they have to be recreated.

Però hi haurà qui et dirà que el referèndum de l'1 d'octubre ja l'ha ben fet.

But there will be those who will tell you that the referendum on October 1 has already been well done.

Hem de tornar...

We have to go back...

Ens hem deixat la nació pel camí.

We have left the nation behind along the way.

Exacte, hem de tornar a refer el catalanisme.

Exactly, we have to redefine Catalanism.

Com ho veus tu?

How do you see it?

Com veig el què?

How do I see it?

Tot el panorama.

The whole panorama.

Ho veig molt complicat.

I see it as very complicated.

Veig una situació molt complicada per tot el tema de la investidura,

I see a very complicated situation regarding the whole issue of the investiture.

per tot el tema de la situació del país,

for the whole issue of the country's situation,

per les últimes enquestes del Centre d'Estudis d'Opinió.

for the latest surveys from the Centre d'Estudis d'Opinió.

És a dir, jo crec que fa falta trobar un objectiu,

That is to say, I believe that it is necessary to find a goal,

un objectiu comú, i fa falta tornar a il·lusionar la gent.

a common goal, and it is necessary to rekindle people's enthusiasm.

Perquè jo el que no estic d'acord és que és veritat que l'independentisme ha baixat.

Because what I don't agree with is that it is true that independence support has declined.

No és que hagi baixat, sinó que la gent està enfadada i diu

It's not that it has gone down, but rather that people are angry and saying.

doncs ara no seré independentista, o ara no aniré a votar,

so now I won't be an independence supporter, or now I won't go to vote,

o ara no votaré un partit independentista.

or now I will not vote for an independentist party.

Però tots els independentistes hi són.

But all the independence supporters are there.

És a dir, la gent...

That is to say, people...

És a dir, jo no conec ningú que fa tres anys era independentista i ara ja no ho és.

That is to say, I don't know anyone who three years ago was an independentist and is no longer one.

El que sí que conec és...

What I do know is...

Que fa tres anys votava independentista i ara està enfadat i per tant no vota.

Three years ago he voted for independence and now he is angry and therefore does not vote.

Això sí, no?

That's right, isn't it?

Sí.

Yes.

Jo també crec que potser voten altres coses que no siguin independentistes.

I also think that maybe they vote for things that are not independence-related.

És a dir...

That is to say...

Però perquè estan enfadats.

But why are they angry?

Clar, perquè estan enfadats.

Of course, because they are angry.

No perquè hagin deixat...

Not because they have left...

No perquè hagin deixat de creure-hi, sinó...

Not because they have stopped believing in it, but...

Jo sempre havia pensat que hi havia una part del vot que el teníem prestat.

I had always thought that there was a part of the vote that we had borrowed.

És a dir, que quan tu muntes, ets capaç d'aconseguir un moviment,

That is to say, when you mount, you are able to achieve a movement,

en el nostre cas un moviment de lliberament, no?

In our case, a movement of liberation, right?

Un moviment engrescador, això, transversal,

An inspiring movement, this, transversal,

que socialment és viable, que políticament és viable,

that is socially viable, that is politically viable,

optimista, positiu, que jo crec que ara ens critiquen molt, no?

optimistic, positive, which I think is why they criticize us a lot now, right?

En relació als somriures, no?

In relation to smiles, right?

Doncs sí, jo prefereixo fer-ho amb somriures que no amb bombes, clar, evidentment.

Well, yes, I prefer to do it with smiles rather than with bombs, of course, obviously.

Però quan tu aconsegueixes aquest moviment,

But when you achieve this movement,

hi ha molta gent que s'hi puja al carro, no?

There are a lot of people who jump on the bandwagon, right?

Bé, perquè a la gent li agrada formar part de moviments,

Well, because people like to be part of movements,

vencedors.

winners.

Clar, clar, clar.

Clear, clear, clear.

De moviments positius i vencedors.

Of positive and victorious movements.

Clar, per això...

Of course, that's why...

Doncs quan ets vencedor, tens molta gent, no?

Well, when you're the winner, you have a lot of people, right?

Però el que passa és que a mi el concepte de vot prestat no m'agrada,

But what happens is that I don't like the concept of borrowed vote,

perquè el vot te'l donen, és a dir, no te'l deixen, te'l donen.

Because they give you the vote, that is to say, they do not leave it to you, they give it to you.

El que passa és que si tu no respons a les seves expectatives,

What happens is that if you do not meet their expectations,

no te'l tornen a donar.

they won't give it back to you.

Ja.

Yes.

Saps el que et vull dir? No te'l tornen a donar.

Do you know what I mean? They won't give it back to you.

Però és perquè tu no has cobert les seves expectatives, no?

But it's because you haven't met their expectations, right?

Sí, però jo crec que podem parlar de...

Yes, but I think we can talk about...

de vot prestat perquè potser aquell vot...

of a vote cast because perhaps that vote...

Jo et parlo d'un percentatge de vot

I am talking to you about a percentage of votes.

que potser mai abans havia votat un partit independentista,

who perhaps had never before voted for an independentist party,

però en aquests 10-15 anys que fas aquest moviment engrescador i positiu,

but in these 10-15 years that you have been making this encouraging and positive movement,

la gent sí que va sumant, no?

People are indeed adding up, right?

I per això dic jo de prestat.

And that's why I say so in advance.

Ja, però si tu...

Yes, but if you...

Que no és prestat, que evidentment te'l donen i és un contracte, no?

It's not a loan, because they obviously give it to you and it's a contract, right?

Al final, si tu no ho compleixes o ells creuen que no ho has complert...

In the end, if you do not fulfill it or they believe that you have not fulfilled it...

Ells te l'han donat i si tu haguessis comprat les seves expectatives,

They gave it to you, and if you had bought their expectations,

te l'haurien continuat donant.

they would have continued giving it to you.

Si tu no les has complert, o bé voten a una altra opció,

If you haven't met them, or they vote for another option,

jo crec que la majoria no és que hagin votat a una altra opció,

I believe that the majority is not that they have voted for another option,

sinó que s'han abstingut.

but they have abstained.

La prova és que a les últimes eleccions l'abstenció ha estat molt alta, no?

The proof is that in the last elections the abstention rate has been very high, hasn't it?

Llavors, per això jo dic que cal tornar a engrescar la gent.

So, that's why I say we need to get people excited again.

Llavors, cal tornar a trobar, no sé, potser la idea del referèndum,

Then, we must find again, I don't know, maybe the idea of the referendum,

una altra vegada, reprendre aquesta idea, no?

Another time, take up this idea, right?

Reprendre un marc estratègic,

Resume a strategic framework,

independentista, amb la idea d'aquest referèndum,

independentist, with the idea of this referendum,

que, a més a més, és un consens molt important del país.

which, moreover, is a very important consensus of the country.

És a dir, nosaltres, en aquest país, malgrat que la gent voti

That is to say, we, in this country, despite the fact that people vote

dretes, esquerres, centre o partits unionistes,

right-wing, left-wing, center, or unionist parties,

hi ha un consens molt gran a totes les últimes enquestes

There is a very large consensus in all the latest surveys.

que entre un 75 i un 80% de la gent d'aquest país

that between 75 and 80% of the people in this country

està d'acord que el conflicte s'ha de resoldre votant en un referèndum.

Do you agree that the conflict should be resolved by voting in a referendum?

I això és molt important.

And this is very important.

Sí, jo no sé, bueno, jo per primer, o sigui, en principi crec,

Yes, I don't know, well, for the first, I mean, in principle I think,

jo crec que hi ha d'haver un objectiu, no sé si ha de ser el referèndum,

I believe there should be a goal, I don't know if it has to be the referendum.

però sí que crec que el fet que quan es va dibuixar el referèndum

but I do believe that the fact that when the referendum was drawn up

es va aconseguir un objectiu que era molt palpable,

an objective that was very palpable was achieved,

que la gent veia, no?, que deia, hòstia, com ho farem, doncs, amb un referèndum?

What people were seeing, right? They said, wow, how are we going to do this, then, with a referendum?

No sé si ara, perquè, no ho sé, no he arribat encara a la conclusió

I don't know if now, because, I don't know, I haven't arrived at the conclusion yet.

de saber si què és el que necessitem,

to know what it is that we need,

però és evident que necessitem un objectiu comú

but it is evident that we need a common goal

per poder aconseguir no només una estratègia,

to achieve not only a strategy,

o sigui, no només el com, sinó el què, no?, què és el que farem.

So, not just the how, but the what, right? What is it that we will do?

No sé si el referèndum.

I don't know if the referendum.

El que sí que m'agrada fer una mica de reflexió sobre el tema del percentatge,

What I do like is to reflect a bit on the topic of the percentage.

perquè el 2015, el 14-15, era un 80%.

because in 2015, the 14-15, it was 80%.

Era un 80% que estava en contra de la monarquia

It was an 80% that was against the monarchy.

i, per tant, per una república, a favor d'un referèndum

and therefore, for a republic, in favor of a referendum

i a favor de la inversió, si te'n recordes,

and in favor of the investment, if you remember.

i a favor de la inversió.

in favor of the investment.

Aquella república del 80% que dèiem, no?,

That republic of the 80% that we were talking about, right?

com ens imaginem el país, doncs, una república

how we imagine the country, then, a republic

amb la inversió per descomptat i amb un referèndum.

with the investment of course and with a referendum.

I això aquí inclou el PSC.

And this here includes the PSC.

I jo me'n recordava, jo no militava cap partit

And I remembered, I was not a member of any party.

ni formava part de cap moviment polític,

nor was he part of any political movement,

però sí que, com a historiadora, participava a diferents tertúlies

but yes, as a historian, she participated in different discussions

i, a vegades, coincidia amb regidors o amb diputats,

and sometimes, I would meet with councilors or with deputies,

i jo me n'havia fet un fart d'escoltar referèndum legal i acordat.

And I had grown tired of hearing about a legal and agreed referendum.

Legal i acordat, referèndum legal i acordat,

Legal and agreed, legal and agreed referendum,

perquè què passava? Que aleshores governava el PP.

Because what was happening? At that time, the PP was in power.

I, clar, el PSC l'estratègia era referèndum legal i acordat

I, of course, the PSC's strategy was a legal and agreed-upon referendum.

i, aleshores, sí que era una estratègia del 80%.

And, therefore, it was indeed an 80% strategy.

Però el PSC no està aquí.

But the PSC is not here.

No està ni per la república, ni pel referèndum, ni per la immersió.

He is neither for the republic, nor for the referendum, nor for immersion.

El PSC no, però la gent sí.

The PSC not, but the people yes.

Ja, ja.

Ha, ha.

És a dir, el PSC no, però la gent sí.

That is to say, not the PSC, but the people yes.

Però això ja saps tu que, a vegades, no sempre,

But you already know that, sometimes, not always,

però, de vegades, quan els partits polítics marquen una línia,

but, sometimes, when political parties draw a line,

tenen molt de poder per influenciar.

they have a lot of power to influence.

Sí, però, en canvi, si tu ves les enquestes del CEO,

Yes, but on the other hand, if you look at the CEO's polls,

estan entre el 75% i el 80%.

They are between 75% and 80%.

La gent, no els partits polítics.

The people, not the political parties.

Malauradament, jo crec que els partits polítics,

Unfortunately, I believe that the political parties,

moltes vegades, van a re molt de la gent.

Many times, they go to care very much about people.

Per descomptat.

Of course.

La societat civil va per endavant.

Civil society moves forward.

I la societat civil marca aquesta línia.

And civil society draws this line.

Llavors, jo crec que, al final, s'haurà d'acabar.

Then, I think that, in the end, it will have to come to an end.

És a dir, estic...

That is to say, I am...

Estic d'acord amb tu que el PSC estava, fa molt temps,

I agree with you that the PSC was, a long time ago,

estava per l'autodeterminació.

I was for self-determination.

I ara...

And now...

Escolta'm, el president Montilla estava per l'autodeterminació.

Listen to me, President Montilla was in favor of self-determination.

I per la immersió.

And for the immersion.

Sí, sí, està bé, està bé.

Yes, yes, it's fine, it's fine.

I, en canvi, ara no hi estan.

I, on the other hand, are not there now.

Per què?

Why?

Doncs perquè hi ha hagut un retrocés, malauradament,

Well, because there has been a setback, unfortunately,

en drets i llibertats democràtiques,

in democratic rights and freedoms,

hi ha hagut un retrocés

there has been a setback

i hi ha hagut un auge de l'extrema dreta, etcètera, etcètera.

and there has been a rise of the far right, etcetera, etcetera.

I això fa que...

And this means that...

Que el PSC o que els socialistes

That the PSC or that the socialists

s'hagin ancorat més cap a la dreta, malauradament.

they have anchored more to the right, unfortunately.

Però jo crec que el consens, a nivell de Catalunya,

But I believe that the consensus, at the level of Catalonia,

hi és, amb la gent.

there it is, with the people.

I jo crec que és això el que hem de defensar.

And I believe that this is what we must defend.

Bueno...

Well...

I jo crec que el referèndum, ja et deia que, per mi,

And I think that the referendum, as I was telling you, for me,

és una cosa que pot engrescar la gent,

it's something that can excite people,

perquè, clar, és que no hi ha altra manera

because, of course, there is no other way

de resoldre, per mi, el conflicte polític, no?

to resolve, for me, the political conflict, right?

Perquè, clar, el referèndum, que és una persona amb vot,

Because, of course, the referendum, which is a person with a vote,

és una manera molt clara de resoldre el conflicte.

It is a very clear way to resolve the conflict.

No, jo sí.

No, I do.

Si no, no sé com.

If not, I don't know how.

Soc absolutament defensora dels referèndums

I am absolutely in favor of referendums.

i, per descomptat, de les solucions democràtiques, pacífiques

and, of course, of the democratic, peaceful solutions

i per les vies institucionals, per descomptat, no?

And through institutional channels, of course, right?

Perquè, a més, el catalanisme polític

Because, in addition, political Catalanism

sempre ha sigut majoritàriament en aquesta línia

it has always been mostly along this line

i nosaltres, afortunadament, no hem tingut altres aventures

And we, fortunately, have not had any other adventures.

més de violència política o d'altres tipus de solucions.

more political violence or other types of solutions.

I jo crec que hem de mantenir aquesta línia,

And I believe we must maintain this line,

que també és la línia que ens dona el reconeixement internacional,

which is also the line that gives us international recognition,

tot i que és veritat que la violència també dona reconeixement

although it is true that violence also brings recognition

i això també ho hem de ser conscients d'això.

And we also have to be aware of that.

És a dir, quan hem sigut més reconeguts o coneguts al món,

That is to say, when we have been more recognized or known in the world,

desgraciadament, va ser per les hòsties de l'1 d'octubre

Unfortunately, it was because of the blows on October 1st.

i per la repressió que hi va haver.

and for the repression that occurred.

En el nostre cas, nosaltres no marcàvem.

In our case, we did not score.

Sí, però també ens vam començar a conèixer

Yes, but we also started to get to know each other.

per les mobilitzacions de l'11 de setembre, molt abans.

for the mobilizations of September 11, long before.

És a dir, jo crec que la primera...

That is to say, I think that the first...

Però quan la gent coneix què és el que és real,

But when people know what is real,

el que realment està passant a Catalunya,

what is really happening in Catalonia,

és, evidentment, les imatges de la via catalana,

it is, of course, the images of the Catalan way,

que t'haig de dir, no?,

What should I tell you, right?

però de la via catalana, de la via baixa, de tota la història,

but of the Catalan way, of the low way, of all history,

evidentment, és un exemple i, de fet, no és casualitat,

obviously, it is an example and, in fact, it is not a coincidence,

jo quan he sigut diputada,

I when I have been a deputy,

han vingut molts estudiants de doctorat,

many doctoral students have come.

de sociologia, de moviments d'agència política,

of sociology, of political agency movements,

que estan estudiant el nostre moviment.

that are studying our movement.

Sí, sí, ho sé, ho sé.

Yes, yes, I know, I know.

Per descomptat, hem marcat un exemple.

Of course, we have set an example.

Però sembla com que...

But it seems like...

Ho vam tenir molt a tocar.

We had it very close.

Jo no sé si ho vam tenir molt a tocar.

I don't know if we were very close to it.

Tu hi eres més a primera línia.

You are more in the front line.

Jo no sé si ho vam tenir tant a tocar o no,

I don't know if we were that close to it or not,

però no ho vam acabar per descomptat,

but we certainly didn't finish it,

perquè hi va haver una hòstia molt forta,

because there was a very strong blow,

que és la violència i la marca de la violència.

What is violence and the mark of violence.

Quan nosaltres no en el moviment violent i la repressió...

When we are not in violent movement and repression...

I la repressió funciona, és així.

And the repression works, that's how it is.

Funciona perquè serveix per això,

It works because it serves for that,

per atemorir, per empresonar, per represaliar, per exiliar,

to intimidate, to imprison, to retaliate, to exile,

però també per atemorir la població.

but also to intimidate the population.

Serveix per escarmentar, és a dir, per dir, clar,

It serves as a warning, that is to say, to say clearly,

si ho torneu a fer, mireu el que us passarà.

If you do it again, look at what will happen to you.

I això, vulguis que no, afecta la gent.

And this, whether you like it or not, affects people.

I tant que afecta, estic totalment d'acord.

As far as it affects, I totally agree.

És a dir, la repressió que nosaltres hem tingut és molt important,

That is to say, the repression that we have experienced is very significant,

però jo intento ser positiva,

but I try to be positive,

perquè malgrat la repressió, nosaltres hem avançat.

because despite the repression, we have made progress.

Tu creus que si ho féssim...

Do you think that if we did it...

És a dir, si nosaltres tornem, posa't...

That is to say, if we return, get ready...

Fem, aconseguim que el moviment independentista

Let us achieve that the independence movement

tornem a...

let's go back to...

10 anys, no?, a tenir una estratègia unitària

10 years, right?, to have a unified strategy.

i que aquesta estratègia inclou el referèndum.

and that this strategy includes the referendum.

Si no l'aconseguim acordat, què fem?

If we don't achieve the agreement, what do we do?

No podem pensar en 10 anys, és a dir, has de pensar en futur.

We cannot think in terms of 10 years, that is to say, you have to think about the future.

No, no, ja ho sé, ja ho sé, però vull dir...

No, no, I know, I know, but I mean...

No és 10 anys, ara és el futur, a veure què passarà.

It's not 10 years, now it's the future, let's see what will happen.

No, no, no, però jo dic, tornar a aconseguir...

No, no, no, but I say, to achieve again...

Ara mateix no tenim una estratègia unitària.

Right now, we do not have a unified strategy.

No, ara mateix no hi ha les condicions, malauradament.

No, right now the conditions are not there, unfortunately.

És a dir, que ara no en podem parlar.

That is to say, we can't talk about it now.

És a dir, jo precisament deia que...

That is to say, I was just saying that...

El que s'ha de començar és tenint aquest marc estratègic comú.

What needs to be started is having this common strategic framework.

Un marc estratègic comú de totes les forces independentistes,

A common strategic framework for all independence forces,

governi ella o governi qui governi,

whether she governs or whoever governs,

cal tenir un marc estratègic independentista comú,

we need to have a common independentist strategic framework,

de Junts, Esquerra, la CUP,

from Junts, Esquerra, the CUP,

per fer front a la situació.

to cope with the situation.

Ara no hi ha les condicions per fer el referèndum,

Now the conditions are not in place to hold the referendum.

ara no hi són, s'han de tornar a crear.

They are not here now, they need to be created again.

I no sé si previ el referèndum,

I don't know if the referendum is planned,

hem de començar a refer aquesta unitat,

we need to start rebuilding this unit,

aquesta unitat estratègica.

this strategic unit.

Home, evidentment, jo crec que és absolutament previ.

Home, obviously, I believe it is absolutely essential.

I per tant, no podem parlar de referèndum

And therefore, we cannot talk about a referendum.

si no hi ha aquest marc estratègic.

if there is no strategic framework.

No, perquè jo crec que, ja t'ho dic jo, que no soc ningú,

No, because I believe that, I tell you, I am nobody,

però crec que jo no tinc clar

but I think that I am not clear

que l'estratègia hagi de ser repetir un referèndum.

that the strategy has to be to repeat a referendum.

No ho sé, no ho tinc clar.

I don't know, I don't have it clear.

Però sí que crec que l'estratègia ha de començar

But I do think that the strategy must begin.

per fer formar o reformar una unitat.

to form or reform a unit.

El tema del referèndum és perquè és el sistema més clar.

The issue of the referendum is that it is the clearest system.

És a dir,

That is to say,

el sistema més clar,

the clearest system,

per exemple, és igual, Montenegro,

for example, it doesn't matter, Montenegro,

el Quebec, Escòcia,

Quebec, Scotland,

tots els llocs que s'ha volgut fer

all the places that he/she has wanted to make

de manera democràtica,

in a democratic way,

s'ha acabat un referèndum.

A referendum has concluded.

Perquè un referèndum és la manera més clara d'una persona a un vot.

Because a referendum is the clearest way for a person to vote.

És a dir,

That is to say,

una cosa és per ratificar el referèndum.

one thing is to ratify the referendum.

Clar, però hi haurà qui dirà que el referèndum de l'1 d'octubre

Of course, but there will be those who say that the referendum of October 1st

ja l'ha ben fet.

he has done it well.

Sí, però no va tenir reconeixement internacional.

Yes, but it did not receive international recognition.

És a dir, tu saps tan bé com jo

That is to say, you know as well as I do.

que si tu no et reconeix ningú

that if nobody recognizes you

com m'està dient,

as you are telling me,

no ets estat independent.

you are not an independent state.

Però jo crec que no ho vam demanar tampoc.

But I think we didn't ask for it either.

No es va arribar a demanar reconeixement internacional.

International recognition was not requested.

Potser no es va arribar a demanar, però...

Maybe it wasn't asked for, but...

No es va arribar a fer la passa.

The step was never taken.

Exacte, però el tema és que no et va reconeixer ningú.

Exactly, but the thing is that no one recognized you.

Ens al contrari.

To the contrary.

És a dir, jo crec que si alguna cosa

That is to say, I believe that if anything

ens ha servit o ens ha de servir

it has helped us or it must help us

l'experiència de l'1 d'octubre

the experience of October 1st

és que hem après moltes coses.

it's that we have learned many things.

Moltes coses, i per tant...

Many things, and therefore...

Però ells també, no ho oblidis.

But they too, don’t forget it.

Sí, ells també.

Yes, they do too.

Però jo crec que nosaltres n'hem après més.

But I think we have learned more from it.

Nosaltres n'hem après més perquè jo,

We have learned more because I,

per exemple, i jo crec que molta gent com jo

for example, and I believe that many people like me

mai no ens imaginàvem

we never imagined

que l'estat espanyol

that the Spanish state

seria capaç d'utilitzar la violència

I would be capable of using violence.

contra gent que anava pacíficament a votar.

against people who were peacefully going to vote.

Jo no m'ho pensava.

I didn't think so.

D'aquella manera, no.

Not that way.

És a dir, jo el que em pensava és que deixarien votar,

That is to say, what I thought is that they would allow voting,

que després agafarien les urnes,

that they would then take the ballot boxes,

que invalidarien el referèndum,

that would invalidate the referendum,

però que pegarien a la gent,

but they would hit people,

no m'ho pensava.

I didn't think so.

I segona cosa, que també molt innocent,

And second thing, also very innocent,

d'acord?

Okay?

Ho accepto.

I accept it.

Jo pensava que Europa faria alguna cosa més

I thought Europe would do something more.

quan veia que uns ciutadans

when I saw that some citizens

de la Unió Europea

from the European Union

els estaven utilitzant la violència.

they were using violence.

I jo pensava

And I thought

que hauria fet alguna cosa més.

that I would have done something more.

Sí, això és una de les grans decepcions.

Yes, this is one of the great disappointments.

Exacte, per exemple,

Exact, for example,

jo, i després una altra cosa,

me, and then another thing,

vam sobrevalorar

we overvalued

la nostra pròpia força.

our own strength.

La vam sobrevalorar.

We overestimated it.

Perquè, clar, aquell dia

Because, of course, that day

tampoc ningú no va sortir al carrer.

nor did anyone go out into the street.

Saps el que et vull dir?

Do you know what I mean?

Sí. Llavors, crec que hem après.

Yes. Then, I think we have learned.

Hem après de l'experiència.

We have learned from the experience.

Llavors, és veritat que vam fer un referèndum.

So, it is true that we held a referendum.

És veritat que el vam fer.

It is true that we did it.

Però, clar, aquest referèndum

But, of course, this referendum

no l'ha reconegut ningú a nivell internacional.

No one has recognized him internationally.

Llavors, no és vàlid.

Then, it is not valid.

Els estaments internacionals et diuen que no és vàlid.

International bodies tell you that it is not valid.

I, per tant,

And therefore,

què hem de fer?

What should we do?

No sé què diu, si et diuen que no és vàlid.

I don't know what it says, if they tell you that it is not valid.

Sí, sí.

Yes, yes.

Clar, els informes que van fer

Of course, the reports they made.

els verificadors,

the verifiers,

els que venien a...

those who came to...

al referèndum a verificar el referèndum,

at the referendum to verify the referendum,

sí que van dir que hi havia greus errors

they did say that there were serious errors

o greus manques, però era per culpa...

or serious shortcomings, but it was because of...

Mancances.

Shortcomings.

Per culpa que s'havien segrestat urnes,

Because ballot boxes had been kidnapped,

de la violència, evidentment.

of violence, obviously.

No era culpa de l'organització nostra,

It wasn't our organization's fault,

sinó de l'atac extern.

but of the external attack.

Sí, sí, estic d'acord.

Yes, yes, I agree.

Però a conseqüència d'això,

But as a consequence of this,

però clar, no va quedar clar.

but of course, it wasn't clear.

No, no.

No, no.

Jo el que penso és...

What I think is...

Sí, podria ser...

Yes, it could be...

Els observadors internacionals que van venir...

The international observers who came...

Per exemple, van dir que no...

For example, they said no...

Clar, que no es podia certificar...

Of course, it could not be certified...

No, no, sí, sí.

No, no, yes, yes.

I per tant, és aquest el problema.

And therefore, this is the problem.

Després he tingut l'oportunitat

Afterward I had the opportunity

de fer d'observadora internacional

to act as an international observer

a les eleccions a Colòmbia

in the elections in Colombia

i realment entenc l'informe

And I really understand the report.

perquè, clar, tu intentes fer un informe

because, of course, you are trying to make a report

de manera totalment objectiva.

totally objectively.

Objectiva, evidentment.

Objective, obviously.

Intentes no posar-te de part de ningú.

You try not to take sides.

No veiem...

We don't see...

És a dir, no pots dir

That is to say, you can't say.

qui ho ha fet malament o qui no,

who has done it wrong or who hasn’t,

però hi ha unes mancances.

but there are some shortcomings.

I per tant, no hi havia aquesta possibilitat

And therefore, there was no such possibility.

o el que sigui, en aquest cas.

or whatever, in this case.

Ells deien, em sembla, molts, que no hi havia les condicions.

They said, it seems to me, many, that the conditions were not there.

És a dir, que no s'havien donat

That is to say, that they had not been given.

les condicions objectives

the objective conditions

perquè aquest referèndum tingués

so that this referendum had

el reconeixement internacional, una cosa així.

international recognition, something like that.

Bé, també deien que

Well, they also said that

no s'havia garantit

it had not been guaranteed

el secret del vot fins al final.

the secret of the vote until the end.

És a dir, clar, quan tu segrestes urnes

That is to say, of course, when you kidnap ballot boxes.

ja tens, encara que sigui

you already have it, even if it’s just

només un vot...

just one vote...

Ja no és secret.

It is no longer a secret.

Ja no és secret, perquè aquells vots

It is no longer a secret, because those votes

han desaparegut, no?

They have disappeared, right?

No, no, no, s'han alterat.

No, no, no, they have been altered.

Però a mi el que em preocupa

But what worries me

d'aquesta estratègia és...

this strategy is...

Jo no crec,

I don't believe,

sincerament no crec que poguéssim fer

Honestly, I don't think we could do it.

un referèndum ara mateix, igual que el que vam fer

a referendum right now, just like the one we held

l'1 d'octubre. És a dir, un referèndum

October 1st. That is to say, a referendum.

no acordat.

not agreed.

De la mateixa manera que ens van

Just as they are taking us

deixar-lo fer, perquè hi va haver...

let him do it, because there was...

Hi va haver

Hi there

el matí que més o menys

the morning that more or less

el vam poder anar fent,

we were able to keep doing it,

tot i les caigudes, els boicots que hi havia

despite the setbacks, the boycotts that existed

en el sistema informàtic i tota la història,

in the computer system and the whole history,

fins que van començar

until they started

a fotre'ns hòsties,

to hit us,

tota l'organització del referèndum

the entire organization of the referendum

es va poder fer. I es va poder

it was possible to do. And it was possible

organitzar la gent. I la gent va sortir

organize the people. And the people went out.

a defensar les escoles. Jo crec que ara...

to defend the schools. I believe that now...

Però es va poder organitzar

But it was able to be organized.

perquè no van trobar les urnes

because they did not find the ballot boxes

ni van trobar res. Aquesta és l'altra, eh?

they found nothing. This is the other one, huh?

Perquè si haguéssim trobat les urnes no s'hauria pogut fer.

Because if we had found the ballot boxes, it couldn't have been done.

És a dir, ja ho van intentar, eh?

That is to say, they already tried it, right?

Ja ho van intentar. I no van poder.

They tried it. And they couldn't.

Jo recordo quan van anar a events, van anar a diferents

I remember when they went to events, they went to different ones.

empreses, no? No, no, però, per exemple,

companies, right? No, no, but, for example,

quan nosaltres vam ocupar les escoles,

when we occupied the schools,

jo crec que ara seria impossible.

I think it would be impossible now.

Perquè ara tindríem

Because now we would have

no només la policia, sinó

not only the police, but

ciutadans,

citizens,

persones

people

que s'enfrontarien a les persones

that would confront people

que estan intentant

that they are trying

protegir.

protect.

No, és a dir, jo estic d'acord.

No, I mean, I agree.

Tal com es va fer, no es pot fer.

As it was done, it cannot be done.

Això estic d'acord. A mi em sembla que seria

I agree with that. It seems to me that it would be

molt complicat fer-ho. I crec que

very complicated to do it. And I think that

tampoc tenim ara... No, ara no hi ha

we also don't have now... No, there isn't now

les condicions i no es pot fer.

the conditions and it cannot be done.

No tenim les condicions ni estem organitzades.

We do not have the conditions nor are we organized.

No es pot fer.

It cannot be done.

Però crec que fins i tot ells

But I think that even they

van dir, hòstia, això...

they said, damn, this...

O sigui, que no vaix... Te'n recordes

So, you're not going down... Do you remember?

quan després hi havia tots aquests

when then there were all these

els cegadors del Maresme,

the blinding lights of Maresme,

tots aquests grups organitzats que van començar

all these organized groups that began

a arrencar allà sus i afells, violència,

to start there sus and afells, violence,

actes de violència política?

acts of political violence?

Clar, totes aquestes persones es van organitzar

Of course, all these people got organized.

a posteriori del referèndum.

after the referendum.

I ara ja estan organitzades. Ja estan organitzats.

And now they are already organized. They are already organized.

I són els que ens ataquen de tant en tant,

And they are the ones who attack us from time to time,

els que ceguen les estelades...

those who blind the star flags...

Sí, Aurora, però mira,

Yes, Aurora, but look,

pensa que primer es va fer la consulta,

"Think that first the consultation was held,"

per exemple, del 9-N.

for example, from 9-N.

I vam dir,

And we told,

una altra consulta com aquesta no ens la deixaran fer

They won’t let us hold another consultation like this.

perquè al principi el president Rajoy

because at the beginning President Rajoy

va dir, sí, sí, feu-la, no sé el que passa.

He said, yes, yes, do it, I don't know what's happening.

Primer havia de ser un referèndum,

First it was supposed to be a referendum,

després va ser una consulta, feu-la,

then it was a consultation, do it,

no passa res, però sí que va passar

nothing happens, but something did happen

perquè es van multar, inhabilitar, etcètera.

because they were fined, disqualified, etcetera.

Després vam dir, una com aquesta

Then we said, one like this.

no es podrà fer. Bueno, se'n va fer

It cannot be done. Well, it was done.

una altra, la de l'octubre,

another one, the one from October,

que va ser un referèndum

that was a referendum

de veritat, l'altra va ser una consulta

Really, the other one was a consultation.

i ara diem, no, una com una d'octubre,

And now we say, no, one like an October,

no es pot fer. No, però potser

It can't be done. No, but maybe.

es pot fer una altra, és a dir,

another one can be made, that is,

si tenim un marc estratègic,

if we have a strategic framework,

si estem organitzats, tenim molta imaginació.

if we are organized, we have a lot of imagination.

Però abans d'arribar aquí...

But before getting here...

Tenim gent molt preparada, no?

We have very well-prepared people, don't we?

Però abans d'arribar aquí hem d'organitzar-nos...

But before we get here, we need to organize ourselves...

S'ha de fer un marc estratègic comú,

A common strategic framework needs to be established,

una convenció republicana,

a Republican convention,

seure, parlar, analitzar,

sit, speak, analyze

que tothom posi les seves idees damunt de la taula

let everyone put their ideas on the table

i que hi hagi una entesa,

and that there be an understanding,

un diàleg, perquè si no és impossible.

a dialogue, because otherwise it is impossible.

De la manera que estem,

The way we are,

em sembla absolutament impossible,

it seems absolutely impossible to me,

no és possible.

it is not possible.

No, ja hi ha, jo també estic d'acord,

No, there is already, I also agree.

però continuo dient

but I keep saying

que la millor manera,

that the best way,

perquè tots els que han arribat

because all those who have arrived

a la independència de manera pacífica,

to independence peacefully,

més tard o més d'hora

sooner or later

han acabat fent un referèndum,

they ended up holding a referendum,

per tant, hem d'anar en aquesta línia.

Therefore, we must go in this direction.

Ara, com serà? No ho sé, ja ho veurem.

Now, how will it be? I don't know, we'll see.

Que l'ideal seria acordar-s'hi,

That the ideal would be to agree on it,

que això serà difícil, molt.

that this will be difficult, very.

Bé, també ens diuen que era impossible l'amnistia.

Well, they also tell us that amnesty was impossible.

Sí, sí, sí.

Yes, yes, yes.

També ens diuen que era impossible l'amnistia.

They also tell us that the amnesty was impossible.

I s'ha aconseguit, no? Llavors,

It has been achieved, right? Then,

ja veurem, depèn de la força que tinguem,

we'll see, it depends on the strength we have,

depèn de la força que nosaltres tinguem,

depends on the strength we have,

de l'organitzats que estem,

of the organized we are,

del que es necessitin,

of what is needed,

perquè realment l'amnistia,

because really the amnesty,

a veure, no ens enganyem,

let's see, let's not deceive ourselves,

si no que és necessitat els vots,

if not, it is necessary the votes,

possiblement hauria estat,

it might have been,

però bé, doncs aprofitem,

but well, let's take advantage of it,

no? Aquesta conjuntura,

no? This situation,

doncs s'han d'aprofitar

then they must be taken advantage of

totes les oportunitats.

all the opportunities.

S'han d'ajugar amb les conjuntures

They must be played with the joints.

i intentar fer política, que és això,

and try to do politics, that is what this is,

al final, aprofitar,

in the end, take advantage,

les desavantatges de l'altre

the disadvantages of the other

en benefici propi.

in one's own interest.

Evidentment, evidentment, no?

Obviously, obviously, right?

I en això estem. Però ara,

And this is where we are. But now,

estic d'acord amb tu,

I agree with you,

que s'ha de refer, i és més,

that must be referred to, and moreover,

Aurora, jo diria que s'ha de refer

Aurora, I would say it needs to be redone.

al catalanisme.

to Catalanism.

És a dir, no només al marc estratègic

That is to say, not only in the strategic framework.

de l'independentisme, sinó que s'ha de

of independence, but it must be

refer al catalanisme, perquè tot el tema

refers to Catalanism, because the whole issue

de la identitat, de la llengua,

of identity, of language,

de la cultura, estem en un moment

of culture, we are at a moment

d'emergència lingüística

linguistic emergency

i de situació molt,

and of very much situation,

complicada. Bueno, perquè jo crec que aquí

complicated. Well, because I think that here

sí que ens hem deixat...

yes, we have let ourselves...

Hem de tornar... Ens hem deixat la nació

We have to return... We have left the nation behind.

pel camí. Exacte, hem de tornar

on the way. Exactly, we have to go back.

a refer el catalanisme, les bases

to refer to Catalanism, the foundations

de la nació catalana

of the Catalan nation

començant... Hem pensat,

starting... We have thought,

bueno, jo crec que hem de fer

Well, I think we have to do.

deixadesa de funcions en molts aspectes,

neglect of functions in many aspects,

mentre

while

estàvem assistint

we were attending

a un canvi important a Catalunya

to an important change in Catalonia

a nivell demogràfic o a nivell

at a demographic level or at a level

social, perquè no és només

social, because it is not only

un factor extern,

an external factor,

és un factor intern, és un factor

it is an internal factor, it is a factor

de que les escoles, els nens

about the schools, the children

catalanoparlants no parlen català

Catalan speakers do not speak Catalan.

amb els amics, perquè no està de moda

with friends, because it's not fashionable

i perquè hi ha tota una sèrie

and because there is a whole series

de factors externs, en aquest

of external factors, in this

cas sí que

in that case

del món social, no?, de

from the social world, right?, of

les xarxes, que tot és en

the networks, that everything is in

castellà o en anglès... Bueno, hi ha

Spanish or in English... Well, there is

una globalització, i la

a globalization, and the

globalització a les llengües minoritzades

globalization in minority languages

els afecta molt,

it affects them a lot,

han sortit molt perjudicades. I si nosaltres

they have been very harmed. And if we

defensem... És veritat que...

we defend... It's true that...

És veritat que tot...

It is true that everything...

Sempre tot és...

Always everything is...

Tot, com dir-ho, no passa.

Everything, how to put it, doesn't happen.

Les coses no passen aïlladament...

Things don't happen in isolation...

No passen perquè sí, totes tenen uns

They don't happen for no reason, all of them have a

motius i unes coses...

reasons and some things...

I estan correlacionades, és a dir,

And they are correlated, that is,

la globalització,

globalization,

el creixement demogràfic a Catalunya,

the demographic growth in Catalonia,

la globalització,

globalization,

també l'ascens a l'extrema dreta

also the rise of the far right

a nivell global, també

globally, also

afecta a tot aquest...

affects all this...

al nostre nacionalisme cívic,

to our civic nationalism,

no?, a la nació catalana

no?, to the Catalan nation

cívica, que es basa, que el nostre pal

civic, which is based, that our pole

de paller és la llengua, la llengua i la

the language is the straw, the language and the

cultura catalanes. I, aleshores,

Catalan cultures. And then,

quan això ho hem deixat, hem

When we have left this, we have

pensat, hosti, bueno, ja ho tenim,

thought, damn, well, we've got it.

no?, si nosaltres tenim el govern, perquè és veritat,

No? If we have the government, because it's true,

tenim el govern, tenim unes majories de governs

We have the government, we have a majority of governments.

nacionalistes, catalanistes,

nationalists, Catalanists,

que, per tant, teníem més o menys

that, therefore, we had more or less

el poder de poder

the power of power

protegir d'alguna manera la llengua, la

protect the language in some way, the

cultura catalana i el nostre fet

Catalan culture and our fact

identitari,

identity

quan ho hem deixat,

when we have left it,

en aquest

in this

món tan global,

global world,

això és molt

this is very

perillós, sobretot perquè no tenim

dangerous, especially because we don't have

un estat, però sí que el tenim,

a state, but we do have it,

però el tenim en contra. Tenim

but we have him against us. We have

un estat en contra, que juga en contra

a state against, that plays against

i que juga, i sempre ha jugat, a

and plays, and has always played, to

emocionalitzar tota la cultura nacional

to emotionalize the entire national culture

castellana, espanyola,

Castilian, Spanish

contra les petites, contra les

against the small ones, against the

minories que són Catalunya,

minorities that are Catalonia,

el País Basc o Galícia, i

the Basque Country or Galicia, and

hem deixat que passin

we have let them pass

i que avancin i que destrossin

and let them advance and destroy

la nostra identitat. Però jo,

our identity. But I,

també abans els ho deia, jo crec que

I also said it to them before, I believe that

part de responsabilitat també

part of the responsibility also

és nostra com a ciutadans, és a dir,

it is ours as citizens, that is,

com a societat civil, perquè és veritat

as civil society, because it is true

que això és una lluita que s'ha de fer

that this is a fight that must be fought

institucions, però també societat

institutions, but also society

civil, perquè clar,

civil, because of course,

en sociolingüística

in sociolinguistics

s'ha demostrat que una llengua no es perd

It has been proven that a language does not get lost.

perquè els de fora la deixen de

because the outsiders stop it from

parlar, sinó perquè els del país

speak, but because of the people of the country

l'abandonen. Quan els

they abandon him. When the

ciutadans abandonen una llengua, aquestes llengües

citizens abandon a language, these languages

es perd. I nosaltres

It gets lost. And us.

hem abandonat la llengua. Clar.

We have abandoned the language. Clearly.

Això et deia jo. Nosaltres hem abandonat

That's what I was telling you. We have abandoned.

la llengua. Quan tu veus pares o

the language. When you see parents or

alumnes catalanoparlants

Catalan-speaking students

que no es relacionen amb català,

that are not related to Catalan,

dius, hòstia, quan els dos

you say, damn, when the two

són catalanoparlants i quan fa 20 anys

They are Catalan speakers and it has been 20 years.

sí que ho haguessin fet...

yes, they would have done it...

Perquè fa 20 anys

Because it was 20 years ago

la llengua era,

the language was,

parlar català, el català

speak Catalan, the Catalan language

era una llengua de prestigi i era

it was a language of prestige and it was

una llengua que servia per ascendir

a language that served to ascend

socialment. Era allò que en dèiem

socially. It was what we called

l'ascensor social. I ara no.

the social elevator. And now not.

Ara no és. Això s'ha perdut.

Now it is not. This has been lost.

Per què? Doncs per la

Why? Well, because of the

globalització, per l'accés de l'extrema

globalization, for the access of the extreme

dreta, etc. I perquè també

right, etc. And because also

nosaltres hem abandonat una mica

we have somewhat abandoned

la llengua. Perquè hem pensat, ja tenim un govern

the language. Because we have thought, we already have a government.

que la defensa ja no es necessita.

that the defense is no longer needed.

I això no és així. No és així.

And this is not the case. It is not the case.

Jo crec que també els governs

I believe that also the governments

s'han relaxat molt.

They have relaxed a lot.

Sí, evidentment.

Yes, obviously.

El factor lingüístic era...

The linguistic factor was...

Perdona.

Sorry.

El tema de TV3, per exemple.

The TV3 theme, for example.

Sort que ara

Get out now

s'ha recuperat la plataforma 3cat,

the 3cat platform has been recovered,

que és l'única que està fent front

that is the only one standing up to it

als nets i a totes aquestes grans

to the grandchildren and to all these great ones

plataformes. I s'ha recuperat el

platforms. And it has been recovered the

canal infantil. Però és que va haver molts anys

children's channel. But it was many years ago.

que no va haver canal infantil de TV3.

that there was no children's channel from TV3.

La desaparició de TV3 és un drama.

The disappearance of TV3 is a tragedy.

I per exemple els nens catalans

And for example, the Catalan children.

no tenien

they did not have

no tenien oci en català.

they had no leisure in Catalan.

Per això...

That's why...

Aquest era el drama.

This was the drama.

O sigui, per la gent normal

So, for normal people.

era com, perquè no hi ha

it was like, because there isn't

Super3, això és una barbaritat.

Super3, this is outrageous.

I en canvi, tu parlaves amb

And instead, you were talking to

la gent de la Corp i deien

the people of the Corp said

no, però no passa res. O sigui, han trigat

No, but it’s fine. I mean, they took a while.

molt a pensar

a lot to think about

bueno, és que la gent no mira la tele. Ja, ja,

Well, it's just that people don't watch TV. Ha, ha,

no mira la tele, però els nens no miren la tele.

She doesn't watch TV, but the kids don't watch TV.

Però miraran el que puguin, no?

But they will look at what they can, right?

O sigui, ja sigui

That is to say, either way.

amb una tele en internet, o sigui, m'entén,

with an internet TV, I mean, you understand me,

però miraran alguna cosa, o en els mòbils.

but they will look at something, or on their phones.

Fins que s'ha arribat

Until it has been reached.

a la passa de crear

in the process of creating

aquesta plataforma i la...

this platform and the...

No, jo crec que és molt important. Això ha estat

No, I think it's very important. This has been

un pas de gegant, perquè és l'únic

a giant leap, because it is the only one

clar, això està a internet i està per tot el món

Of course, it's on the internet and it's all over the world.

i per tant això sí que és important

And therefore this is indeed important.

perquè qualsevol català de tot el món

because any Catalan from all over the world

pot veure, per exemple, el

you can see, for example, the

Trescat, no? Però que era

Trescat, right? But what was it?

un exemple importantíssim

a very important example

per moltes llengües minoritàries.

for many minority languages.

Jo recordo quan fa uns anys van venir

I remember when a few years ago they came.

d'una

of one

associació del Hawaii, de Hawaii

Hawaii Association, of Hawaii

que van venir a parlar

that came to talk

del... Bueno, ells evidentment

Well, they obviously...

al seu Parlament de Hawaii

to its Parliament of Hawaii

la seva llengua indigena no està

their indigenous language is not

reconeguda. No, no, ells parlen anglès.

recognized. No, no, they speak English.

Clar, parlen anglès perquè formen part

Of course, they speak English because they are part

dels Estats Units i els indigenes no ho tenen.

from the United States and the indigenous people do not have it.

Però és que a les escoles ni parlar-ne,

But it's that in schools not even to talk about it,

o sigui, no en tenen ni idea.

That is to say, they have no idea.

Llavors, clar, quan tu els ensenyaves, els explicaves

So, of course, when you taught them, you explained to them.

no només al Parlament

not only in Parliament

de Catalunya parlem en català, majoritàriament

In Catalonia, we mostly speak Catalan.

fins que va arribar Ciudadanos,

until Ciudadanos arrived,

que era la que... Una altra cosa que...

that was the one that... Another thing that...

Això també és un motiu, precisament,

This is also a reason, precisely,

del desprestigi de la llengua, és a dir, fins a

of the discredit of the language, that is to say, up to

que va arribar

that arrived

Ciutadans, fins que van arribar ells

Citizens, until they arrived.

al Parlament de Catalunya absolutament tothom

in the Parliament of Catalonia absolutely everyone

parlava en català.

he spoke in Catalan.

I en canvi, malauradament, ara

And instead, unfortunately, now

no només els de Ciutadans,

not only those from Citizens,

bueno, per sort,

well, luckily,

l'únic bo de les eleccions o l'únic

the only good thing about the elections or the only

cosa bona de les últimes eleccions és que han desaparegut

The good thing about the last elections is that they have disappeared.

Ciutadans. Exacte, no?

Citizens. Exactly, right?

Però en canvi s'ha quedat

But instead, he/she has stayed.

el que parla en castellà i ara ho fan els

the one who speaks in Spanish and now they do it

de Vox, ara ho fan els del PP

from Vox, now it's the PP who do it.

i fins i tot ho fan els socialistes.

And even the socialists do it.

I per tant, i per tant...

And therefore, and therefore...

Els comuns també quan contesten...

The commons also when they respond...

Això és una altra cosa, no?

This is another thing, isn't it?

Bueno, perquè és el que tu has dit abans,

Well, because it’s what you said before,

que és un factor important,

that is an important factor,

que és que el PSC o el PSOE

What is the PSC or the PSOE?

s'ha dretenitzat i s'ha espanyolitzat.

it has been westernized and has been Spanishized.

Sí, sí, clar, sí, sí. O sigui, en lloc

Yes, yes, of course, yes, yes. I mean, instead.

de fer, davant de l'amenaça

to do, in the face of the threat

a l'extrema dreta, i en aquest cas l'extrema dreta

to the far right, and in this case the far right

evidentment a Espanya és molt

obviously in Spain it is very

espanyolitzant, tot i que l'esquerra també ho és,

hispanicizing, although the left is also.

en lloc de fer

instead of doing

polítiques progressistes i de front

progressive and front policies

d'esquerres, s'han dretenitzat. Exacte, és el que s'ha de fer

From the left, they have shifted to the right. Exactly, that is what needs to be done.

per fer front a l'extrema dreta.

to confront the far-right.

L'extrema dreta ha de fer polítiques molt

The far right must implement very policies.

d'esquerres per fer front al populisme.

from the left to confront populism.

En canvi no ho han fet. El que han fet és

On the contrary, they haven't done it. What they have done is

ancorar-se més cap a la dreta.

anchor more to the right.

Això es veu molt clar en les polítiques migratòries,

This is very clearly seen in migration policies,

però també en les polítiques de llengua i nacionals,

but also in language and national policies,

perquè ells no es poden permetre

because they cannot afford

en aquest discurs o aquest

in this speech or this

confrontament amb la dreta

confrontation with the right

i l'extrema dreta que formen per al PP

and the far-right they form for the PP

i Vox, perquè jo crec que el PP també

And Vox, because I believe that the PP as well.

és l'extrema dreta, però

it's the far right, but

no es poden permetre segons

seconds cannot be allowed

quines

which ones

deixades o

careless or

quins favors

what favors

els nacionalismes perifèrics

the peripheral nationalisms

i per tant

and therefore

han exaltat el seu nacionalisme

they have exalted their nationalism

espanyol.

Spanish.

Jo crec que

I believe that

l'extrema dreta

the far right

és a dir,

that is to say,

l'extrema dreta a Espanya sempre ha existit.

The far right has always existed in Spain.

Per què?

Why?

Perquè hi ha un franquisme sociològic. Majoritàriament.

Because there is a sociological Francoism. Mainly.

Perquè hauríem de fer la història.

Why should we make history?

Perquè no hi va haver una ruptura, una transició.

Because there was no break, no transition.

Llavors hi ha un franquisme sociològic.

Then there is a sociological Francoism.

I llavors què passa?

And then what happens?

Aquest franquisme sociològic

This sociological Francoism

continua existint. Què passa?

It continues to exist. What happens?

Que estava dins del PP. I què passa?

That I was in the PP. And what happens?

Que s'avergonyia.

That he/she was ashamed.

Llavors, i ara s'ha d'avergonyir.

Then, and now she should be ashamed.

I això va ser el moment

And that was the moment.

que, per exemple,

that, for example,

que el PP va començar a governar

that the PP started to govern

amb l'extrema dreta andalusia.

with the extreme right in Andalusia.

És a dir, des d'aquest moment que li van

That is to say, from this moment they go to him.

reconèixer, va ser el mateix PP

to recognize, it was the same PP

que li va donar valor.

that gave him courage.

I a partir d'aquest moment que van començar

And from that moment, they began.

a formar part de governs, s'han envalentonat.

as they have become part of governments, they have gained confidence.

I per tant, no és que ara

And therefore, it is not that now

jo crec, no és que ara n'hi hagi més.

I believe, it's not that there are now more of them.

És que ara s'han envalentonat.

It's just that now they've gotten bold.

I el problema és que

And the problem is that

han convençut, amb aquest populisme,

they have convinced, with this populism,

hi ha molts joves. I per mi el problema no és tant

There are many young people. And for me, the problem isn't so much.

el problema de l'extrema dreta, sinó

the problem of the far right, but

la influència de l'extrema dreta

the influence of the extreme right

en molta gent jove.

in many young people.

Aquest és per mi el problema.

This is the problem for me.

Perquè si tu entres a les xarxes socials

Because if you enter social networks

i vas al TikTok, i vas a moltes

And you go to TikTok, and you go to many.

xarxes, hi ha molts,

networks, there are many,

molts joves

many young people

amb postulats d'extrema dreta,

with far-right postulates,

i tenen molts i molts seguidors.

and they have many, many followers.

Fa molts anys que ho estan treballant, això.

They have been working on this for many years.

Aquest és el problema.

This is the problem.

Mira, això fa com a mínim

Look, this is at least

15 o 20 anys que estan treballant

15 or 20 years that they have been working.

amb aquests temes, l'extrema dreta,

with these topics, the far right,

de xarxes socials.

of social networks.

I quan...

And when...

Jo, les vegades que he estat

I, the times I have been

com a diputada en fòrums internacionals,

as a deputy in international forums,

desgraciadament és així.

Unfortunately, that's how it is.

Jo sempre poso el mateix exemple perquè és així.

I always give the same example because that's how it is.

Què passa? Que jo portava

What's happening? That I was carrying.

temes de dones. Temes de dones.

women's issues. women's issues.

Només som la meitat de la

We are only half of the

població, no és res més.

population, it's nothing more.

Una mica més que la meitat de la població.

A little more than half of the population.

Però són temes de dones,

But these are women's issues,

que sembla que siguin... Són temes de dones,

that it seems they are... They are women's issues,

com si fóssim un bitxo raro que no formem

as if we were a strange bug that doesn't belong

part de la humanitat. Això,

part of humanity. This,

aquest creixement de l'extrema dreta

this growth of the far right

va començar a atacar

started to attack

i a organitzar-se contra els drets sexuals

and to organize against sexual rights

i reproductius. I ho feien

and reproductive. And they did it.

a través de les xarxes socials.

through social networks.

I a través d'això, d'estreamers,

And through this, of streamers,

de youtubers,

of YouTubers,

de dones, noies,

of women, girls,

d'influències d'aquestes...

of influences from these...

Hi ha moltes influències

There are many influences.

de morts que estan transmetent

of the dead that are transmitting

unes idees d'extrema dreta

some far-right ideas

horroroses. Amb uns discursos de tornar

horrible. With some speeches of return

al casament, al salivat...

at the wedding, at the drool...

Perdona, i les cançons...

Sorry, and the songs...

Clar, però quan jo

Of course, but when I

advertia d'això,

warned of this,

semblava com que, bueno, sí,

it seemed like, well, yes,

hòstia, que greu, no?

Wow, that's serious, isn't it?

Però no va amb nosaltres,

But he/she is not coming with us,

no va amb la resta del planeta.

it does not go with the rest of the planet.

Sí que va amb la resta del planeta.

Yes, it goes with the rest of the planet.

Perquè el que ens afecta a les dones,

Because what affects women,

a tothom. I això, els drets

to everyone. And this, the rights

de les dones són drets humans. No són

of women are human rights. They are not

drets només de les dones, són drets humans.

Rights only for women are human rights.

I aquest creixement,

And this growth,

que jo l'advertia, està passant,

that I warned him, it's happening,

això existeix, semblava com que,

this exists, it seemed like,

bueno, ja, però només al final són coses vostres.

Well, yes, but in the end, they are just your things.

Que no t'ho diuen així, però al final,

They're not telling you this, but in the end,

quan no fan res,

when they do nothing,

quan no hi ha reacció, quan tu aproves

when there is no reaction, when you approve

una modificació...

a modification...

És que ara no hi ha tampoc de reacció.

It's just that there is no reaction now either.

Clar, però quan tu aproves coses al Parlament tan importants

Of course, but when you approve such important things in Parliament

com l'educació sexoafectiva

with sex-affective education

i no surt

and it doesn’t come out

de tot arreu, com un gran

from everywhere, like a great

guany, perquè això no és només

win, because this is not just

per les nenes, és per les nenes

for the girls, it's for the girls

i els nens, per tota la humanitat que hi hagi

and the children, for all the humanity that there is

educació sexoafectiva, és que

Sexual and affective education, what is it?

no ens estem adonant del que està passant.

we are not realizing what is happening.

Llavors, clar, quan ara veus

Then, of course, when you now see

que entres a una classe de tercer

that you enter a third-grade class

de l'ESO i et diu, a mi va Franco,

from high school and he tells you, Franco goes to me,

dius, ah, hòstia,

you say, oh, damn,

és que la xarxa està plena

It's just that the network is full.

d'extrema dreta. No, no, és que la xarxa ja estava plena

far-right. No, no, it's just that the network was already full.

d'extrema dreta fa 20 anys

far-right 20 years ago

i us ho estaven dient. I quan anaven davant

and they were telling you. And when they were going ahead

de les...

of the...

de les clíniques

of the clinics

on es practiquen avortaments,

where abortions are practiced,

que són clíniques de fertilitat,

that are fertility clinics,

a manifestar-se fa 20 anys

to manifest itself 20 years ago

i us ho dèiem, però no aquí, eh,

And we told you, but not here, okay?

als Estats Units us ho dèiem, passava de tot

In the United States, we used to tell you, everything happened.

perquè només afecta a més

because it only affects more

de la meitat de la població mundial.

half of the world's population.

Per tant, això que ara veiem,

Therefore, what we are seeing now,

perquè és simplement...

because it is simply...

Sí, però aquí...

Yes, but here...

Però jo crec que aquí...

But I believe that here...

Han actualitzat el seu discurs,

They have updated their speech.

però van començar per allà, eh?

But they started over there, right?

Sí, van començar per allà, però jo crec que aquí

Yes, they started there, but I think here.

no ha fet només

he has not only done

el tema de les dones, és a dir,

the issue of women, that is,

no només el tema de les dones, sinó...

not only the issue of women, but...

és a dir, a molts altres temes.

that is to say, many other topics.

Jo crec que aquí està molt més centrat

I believe that here it is much more focused.

en tot el tema de la immigració.

in the whole issue of immigration.

Aquí. Aquí no és el tema de les dones,

Here. Here, it is not the issue of women,

aquí és el tema de la immigració.

here is the issue of immigration.

I quan ara fa l'altre dia que va jugar

And when just the other day he played

a la selecció espanyola,

to the Spanish national team,

clar, tu senties anar aquí,

of course, you felt going here,

passaves pel centre de Sabadell

you were passing through the center of Sabadell

i senties Viva Espanya. I tant.

I heard "Long live Spain." I certainly did.

I senties Viva Espanya i jo vaig sentir

I heard "Long Live Spain" and I felt.

cantar cara al sol.

sing facing the sun.

I em vaig agarrifar. Amb nens joves.

I got scared. With young kids.

Amb nens molt joves.

With very young children.

Perquè el nacionalisme banal

Because of banal nationalism

és nacionalisme. Aquí tens el problema.

It's nationalism. Here lies the problem.

No, perquè allò són exemples i això és...

No, because those are examples and this is...

Això és el que hem de treballar.

This is what we need to work on.

Per mi, això és el més... El més greu

For me, this is the most... the most serious.

per mi no és que hi hagi gent d'extrema

For me, it's not that there are extreme people.

dreta molt gran, perquè aquesta gent

very large right, because these people

d'extrema dreta molt gran ho ha estat sempre.

The far-right has always been very significant.

Sí. No? I segurament són els fills

Yes. No? And they are probably the children.

i els nets... Això són com

And the grandchildren... These are like

els jutges que hi ha ara, no?

The judges that are there now, right?

Com els fills i els nets dels jutges

Like the children and grandchildren of the judges.

que hi havia al Tribunal d'Order Públic,

what there was at the Public Order Court,

no? O com els...

No? Or like the...

O com els militars que hi ha ara, que són els fills i els nets

Or like the soldiers that are there now, who are the sons and grandsons.

dels que hi havia. Això no m'afecta

of those that were there. This does not affect me.

tant a mi. Sí. A mi el que m'afecta és

as for me. Yes. What affects me is

aquests nois joves, no?

these young boys, right?

Que quin exemple tenen, que t'estan

What example do they have, that they are?

cantant, altera el son, i ho troben guai.

Singing, it alters the sound, and they find it cool.

Va començar... I quan els hi plantes cara,

It started... And when you stand up to them,

perquè jo els hi planto cara, i els dic

because I stand up to them, and I tell them

no sé el què, et miren com si tu fossis

I don't know what, they look at you as if you were

una extraterrestre. Clar. Però jo

an alien. Sure. But I

deia, va començar retallant

said, he/she started cutting

drets a les dones i a ningú els importava,

women's rights, and no one cared,

perquè qui comença a retallar drets a les dones?

because who begins to cut rights for women?

Una entitat que es diu Aztehuir,

An entity called Aztehuir,

que és la Ignacio Arzuaga.

What is Ignacio Arzuaga?

Igual. I Manos Limpias, i totes aquestes.

Same. And Manos Limpias, and all of these.

Però l'Ignacio Arzuaga aquest

But Ignacio Arzuaga this one

és el que ha posat ara una

it is what he/she has just put one

denúncia contra la llei d'amnistia,

complaint against the amnesty law,

perquè no era un tema només contra

because it wasn't just a topic against

les dones. Era contra tot. Clar, és

the women. It was against everything. Of course, it is

contra tot. És un tema d'una agenda

against everything. It's a matter of an agenda

totalment

totally

reaccionària contra els drets

reactionary against rights

de tothom, i una agenda a l'extrema

of everyone, and an agenda at the extreme

dreta, que a cada país

right, which in each country

adopta l'accent que creuen

adopt the accent they believe

que li beneficiarà. Beneficiarà

that will benefit him/her. It will benefit

més, i en el nostre cas, evidentment,

more, and in our case, obviously,

Espanya és la immigració.

Spain is immigration.

Per exemple, jo crec que Catalunya

For example, I believe that Catalonia

és el problema. L'Argentina

is the problem. Argentina

de Miley no és extrema dreta i no

Miley is not far-right and no.

té aquest discurs anti-immigració, perquè

has this anti-immigration discourse, because

no tenen la mateixa

they don't have the same

situació socioeconòmica.

socioeconomic situation.

Per això jo crec que aquí el problema

That's why I believe the problem lies here.

nostre és la immigració.

Ours is immigration.

I hem de combatre

And we must fight.

aquesta

this

extrema dreta s'ha de combatre

the far right must be fought

sobretot amb nois joves, i això és un problema.

especially with young boys, and this is a problem.

Això és un problema.

This is a problem.

I per tant, a mi això és el que

And therefore, this is what to me

em preocupa més,

it worries me more,

és una de les coses que em preocupa més en aquest moment,

it is one of the things that worries me the most right now,

és a dir, l'extensió de les idees

that is to say, the extension of the ideas

d'extrema dreta en la població

far-right in the population

jove. I això

young. And this

a les escoles, no només a les

in schools, not only in the

escoles, als instituts,

schools, to the high schools,

a les universitats, vagis on

to the universities, wherever you go

vagis, i aquests nois això

go, and these guys this

ho consideren normal.

they consider it normal.

Per mi el problema és que ho consideren normal.

For me, the problem is that they consider it normal.

També pot ser perquè no se'ls ha

It may also be because they have not been.

explicat la història. La nostra història

explained the story. Our story

tampoc se'ls ha explicat, no? Molts

they haven't explained it to them either, have they? Many

no saben qui és Franco, però

they don't know who Franco is, but

estan cridant viva Franco. No saben

They are shouting long live Franco. They don't know.

què és el feixisme, però estan

what is fascism, but they are

cantant cara al sol. És a dir, entens?

Singing facing the sun. That is to say, do you understand?

Aquest és el problema. Però per això la deixadesa

This is the problem. But that’s why the neglect.

és a dir, el problema que vam

that is to say, the problem that we

tenir i que tenim amb les

having and that we have with the

escoles, o amb les escoles que

schools, or with the schools that

els han posat la sentència perquè

they have given them the sentence because

facin classes en castellà. També, també.

They give classes in Spanish. Also, also.

El problema que hi ha dels, no

The problem that exists is, no.

problema, sí, dels professors

problem, yes, of the teachers

que no volen desobeir, perquè jo vaig

that do not want to disobey, because I go

formar part de, amb el Consell de la República

to be part of, with the Council of the Republic

vam reunir-nos per donar-los suport

we gathered to support them

jurídic i econòmic

legal and economic

i polític per si volien desobeir. Clar,

and politicians in case they wanted to disobey. Of course,

no volen desobeir. Per què no volen desobeir?

They do not want to disobey. Why do they not want to disobey?

No ho sé, ho sé, perquè el Departament d'Educació

I don't know, I know, because the Department of Education

també els ho va oferir i no volen, sí. Clar, però

he also offered it to them and they don't want it, yes. Of course, but.

per què no volen desobeir? Perquè veuen que està tot

Why don't they want to disobey? Because they see that everything is...

desdibuixat. Això

faded. This

passa el 2 d'octubre del 17, doncs

so it happens on October 2nd, 2017 then

haguessin desobeït, no? Perquè estàvem tots

they would have disobeyed, right? Because we were all there.

amatents, estàvem tots organitzats.

Lovers, we were all organized.

Bé, és que tampoc hauria passat això.

Well, this wouldn't have happened either.

Bueno, clar. A l'octubre del 2017

Well, of course. In October 2017.

tampoc hauria passat perquè la situació era

it wouldn't have happened either because the situation was

una altra. Però això és una estratègia que ells

another one. But this is a strategy that they

van fent, van fer un forat i van fent

they are doing, they made a hole and they are doing

en diferents fronts, i aquest és un front molt

on different fronts, and this is a very front

important, perquè és evident que

important, because it is evident that

hem començat parlant, la llengua és

we started talking, the language is

la nostra pal de palleix. I ells saben

our straw pole. And they know

molt millor que nosaltres on anar

much better than us where to go

a atacar, i ataquen

to attack, and they attack

allà. Ho tinc clar, que en la

there. I am clear that in the

llengua ell té més econòmic. Clar.

Language he has more economical. Clearly.