Per un nou model de turisme al servei del país

El podcast de les revistes.

The podcast of the magazines.

Un viatge auditiu per la diversitat i la riquesa de les publicacions de l'APEC,

An auditory journey through the diversity and richness of APEC publications,

editors de revistes i digitals.

editors of magazines and digital content.

Sóc l'Estel Soler i et convido a conèixer les revistes més influents

I am Estel Soler and I invite you to discover the most influential magazines.

i les veus que donen vida a la nostra cultura.

and the voices that give life to our culture.

Art de la revista.

Art of the magazine.

Art, literatura, música i molt més.

Art, literature, music, and much more.

Tot en un sol lloc.

All in one place.

No et quedis enrere, va, escolta'ns i connecta amb la cultura.

Don't fall behind, come on, listen to us and connect with culture.

Recordeu, teniu al vostre abast totes les publicacions a iKiosk en format digital,

Remember, you have all the publications available to you on iKiosk in digital format.

on podreu llegir i també descarregar més de 150 publicacions per a qualsevol dispositiu.

You can read and also download more than 150 publications for any device.

Descobrir Catalunya és una revista mensual de geografia

Discovering Catalonia is a monthly geography magazine.

i de viatges en llengua catalana.

and travel in the Catalan language.

Fundada l'any 1997, és una publicació centrada en el turisme interior

Founded in 1997, it is a publication focused on domestic tourism.

pels territoris de parla catalana.

for the Catalan-speaking territories.

De fet, la seva aparició va iniciar un nou concepte editorial a casa nostra,

In fact, its appearance started a new editorial concept in our country,

justament adreçat a un lector que valora el turisme de proximitat,

specifically aimed at a reader who values local tourism,

el descobriment del propi país i el plaer de viatjar.

the discovery of one's own country and the pleasure of traveling.

Es caracteritza per fotografies de gran qualitat

It is characterized by high-quality photographs.

i articles escrits per periodistes i escriptors de prestigi

and articles written by prestigious journalists and writers

sobre un ampli ventall de temàtiques com, per exemple, el patrimoni,

about a wide range of topics such as, for example, heritage,

la natura...

nature...

les rutes, les festes, les tradicions i la gastronomia.

the routes, the festivals, the traditions, and the gastronomy.

El nostre país té la necessitat de fer un canvi en el model turístic

Our country needs to make a change in the tourist model.

per potenciar justament el turisme que neix del nostre territori.

to enhance precisely the tourism that stems from our territory.

D'aquesta manera es podrà posar en valor els actius paisatgístics,

In this way, it will be possible to enhance the landscape assets.

gastronòmics, naturals i culturals que defineixen el nostre país.

gastronomic, natural, and cultural that define our country.

Avui explicarem què és el projecte Manifest Descobrir

Today we will explain what the Manifest Discover project is.

amb més de 3.500 signants i per parlar-ne tenim amb nosaltres

with more than 3,500 signatories and to talk about it we have with us

el Joan Morales, editor de la revista Descobrir.

Joan Morales, editor of the magazine Descobrir.

Molt benvingut, Joan, al nostre podcast de les revistes.

Very welcome, Joan, to our magazine podcast.

Gràcies.

Thank you.

Començo preguntant-te, aquest manifest el llanceu el 2020

I start by asking you, you launched this manifesto in 2020.

en aquest context pandèmic

in this pandemic context

i el subtext és

and the subtext is

per un model turístic al servei del país.

For a tourism model at the service of the country.

Què us empeny a donar a conèixer i a buscar suport

What drives you to make known and seek support?

per aquest manifest i, per tant,

for this manifesto and, therefore,

per aquest model de turisme?

for this model of tourism?

Sí, bé, nosaltres, el Descobrir té 27 anys ja.

Yes, well, we have been Discovering for 27 years now.

Durant tot aquest període de temps, evidentment,

During all this period of time, obviously,

el país ha canviat moltíssim i, diguéssim,

the country has changed a lot and, let's say,

l'activitat turística també ha anat a més, a molt més,

tourist activity has also increased, by a lot more,

de manera gairebé exponencial.

in an almost exponential manner.

Jo crec que la pandèmia és un abans i un després

I believe that the pandemic is a before and an after.

en el sentit que allà prenem consciència

in the sense that there we become aware

que no podem continuar funcionant com havíem funcionat fins llavors.

that we cannot continue to function as we had functioned until then.

I és quan nosaltres d'alguna manera recuperem aquests valors

And it is when we somehow regain these values.

amb els quals hem treballat tots aquests anys per dir,

with whom we have worked all these years to say,

escolteu, necessitem que el model turístic que tenim com a país

listen, we need the tourist model we have as a country

sigui un model que no depengui exclusivament

be a model that does not depend exclusively

del turisme de masses, del turisme internacional en molt bona part,

of mass tourism, of international tourism to a large extent,

que, a més a més, posi en valor tot allò que té el país,

that, moreover, values all that the country has,

que és infinit, pràcticament,

that is practically infinite,

que sigui molt més equilibrat

may it be much more balanced

i, vaja, i molts altres elements, diguéssim, que són els que fan

and, well, many other elements, let's say, that are the ones that make

d'alguna manera que el turisme de masses, que són els que fan

in such a way that mass tourism, which are the ones who do

d'alguna manera que una part d'aquest sector,

in a way that part of this sector,

segurament no la part més gran, amb més grans quantitats,

certainly not the largest part, with larger quantities,

però sí que potser és la més qualitativa,

but perhaps it is the most qualitative,

doncs decideixi amb nosaltres llançar aquest manifest

so decide with us to launch this manifesto

i començar a treballar de manera activa i visible

and start to work actively and visibly

a favor d'un cert redireccionament d'aquest transatlàntic turístic

in favor of a certain redirecting of this tourist transatlantic ship

que tenim al país.

that we have in the country.

Clar, és evident que durant l'època postpandèmica

Of course, it is evident that during the post-pandemic period.

la impossibilitat de viatge fora va potenciar, com dèiem,

the impossibility of travel outside enhanced, as we said,

aquest trànsit turístic que tenim al país.

this tourist traffic that we have in the country.

El trànsit turístic, en el sentit de país que volem,

Tourist traffic, in the sense of the country we want,

no sé si encara prou ha relat el territori amb prou consciència,

I don't know if it has still adequately described the territory with enough awareness.

però què n'ha quedat d'allò?

But what remains of that?

Suposo que no prou per que es decideixi justament llançar aquest manifest.

I suppose it's not enough for the decision to launch this manifesto to be made just like that.

Ara mateix estem tornant a batre tots els rècords,

Right now we are breaking all the records again,

no ha de ser que any a any anem batent

it should not be that year after year we keep breaking

quan sembla que ja no podrem, diguéssim, créixer més,

when it seems that we can no longer, let's say, grow any more,

doncs encara continuem creixent.

so we are still growing.

I és veritat, doncs, que bé,

And it is true, then, that well,

que el gran gruix,

that the great bulk,

del sector turístic al nostre país

from the tourism sector in our country

és un sector, diguéssim,

it's a sector, let's say,

que ha viscut precisament d'aquesta quantitat

that has lived precisely on this amount

i que, evidentment, doncs,

and that, obviously, then,

de grat no farà probablement un replantejament

He probably won't reconsider it willingly.

perquè li va molt bé amb el model actual.

because it suits him very well with the current model.

Altra qüestió és que, com a país i com a planeta, diguéssim,

Another question is that, as a country and as a planet, let's say,

és evident que hem de posar un fre, no?

It is clear that we need to put a stop to it, right?

Socialment, també, jo crec que això és un debat

Socially, also, I believe that this is a debate.

que cada cop està més a l'hora del dia

that is becoming more and more timely

i ho serà més,

and it will be more,

a mesura, diguéssim, que aquesta compatibilitat

as we say, this compatibility

entre aquest turisme de masses i el viure en un lloc

between this mass tourism and living in a place

doncs sigui també més difícil.

then it will also be more difficult.

I estem veient en alguns llocs del país,

And we are seeing in some places in the country,

singularment a Barcelona, però en altres llocs també del país,

particularly in Barcelona, but in other parts of the country as well,

com, diguéssim, progressivament, doncs,

as, we would say, progressively, then,

hi ha molta gent que està percebent

there are many people who are perceiving

aquesta invasió turística ja no com un...

this tourist invasion is no longer like a...

com una aportació de recursos i de...

with a contribution of resources and...

i de divises, no?, que se'n diu,

And of currencies, right?, as it's called,

sinó, precisament, com un atac

but, precisely, like an attack

més o menys directe a la seva manera de viure

more or less direct in their way of living

i a les condicions, diguéssim, que el permeten viure en un lloc,

and the conditions, let's say, that allow him to live in a place,

parlant, evidentment, doncs, de l'habitatge,

speaking, obviously, then, about housing,

que és un dels elements més, diguéssim, visibles,

that is one of the most, let's say, visible elements,

doncs, d'aquesta afectació del turisme de masses

thus, from this impact of mass tourism

i del turisme en general a la vida d'un país,

and of tourism in general to the life of a country,

però hi ha molts altres resíduos,

but there are many other residues,

consum d'aigua, mobilitat, etcètera, etcètera.

water consumption, mobility, etcetera, etcetera.

Per tant, diguéssim, nosaltres continuem pensant

Therefore, let's say, we continue thinking.

que és necessari que fem aquest replantejament,

that it is necessary for us to reconsider this,

i no tenim cap mena de por de dir, doncs, que sí,

and we are not afraid to say, therefore, that yes,

que, efectivament, hi ha una part d'aquest turisme, doncs,

that, indeed, there is a part of this tourism, then,

que haurà de posar-hi...

what you will have to put in it...

s'hi haurà de posar límits, no?,

There will have to be limits, right?

i, en canvi, doncs, hi haurà altres...

and, on the other hand, there will be others...

hi ha altres camins a percorrer en aquest àmbit,

there are other paths to follow in this area,

sobretot a nivell territorial,

especially at the territorial level,

i especialment pel que fa al perfil,

and especially regarding the profile,

al tipus de turisme que es fa, no?

to the type of tourism that is done, right?

Clar, podríem entendre que hi ha dues branques d'acció, de demanda,

Of course, we could understand that there are two branches of action, of demand,

és a dir, per una banda,

that is to say, on the one hand,

fer entendre la ciutadania,

make the citizenship understand,

el potenciar justament un turisme d'interior,

the promotion of inland tourism,

en sentit de país, en sentit de sostenibilitat,

in terms of country, in terms of sustainability,

i que, per tant, es pugui optar per viatjar dins de Catalunya,

and that, therefore, it is possible to choose to travel within Catalonia,

en lloc d'agafar avions i anar a buscar meravelles fora,

instead of taking planes and going to look for wonders outside,

trobar les que no hem descobert encara de casa nostra,

find the ones we have not yet discovered from our home,

però, per altra banda,

but, on the other hand,

també un missatge pels consistoris i a nivell governamental,

also a message for the councils and at the governmental level,

perquè, tot i que la ciutadania faci el que pot,

because, although the citizens do what they can,

que també sempre els victimit...

that they also always victimize them...

els convertim en culpables, no?,

we make them guilty, don't we?

quan en realitat som les víctimes alhora,

when we are actually the victims at the same time,

però ho estem veient en Barcelona.

but we are seeing it in Barcelona.

El consistori de Barcelona ens està dient

The Barcelona council is telling us

que té una previsió d'aturar o de regular el turisme,

that has a forecast to stop or regulate tourism,

té uns plans que no sé si hem acabat d'entendre,

he has some plans that I don’t know if we have fully understood,

però, en tot cas, ens trobem després

but, in any case, we'll meet afterwards

amb accions totalment contradictòries,

with totally contradictory actions,

el relleu del nostre paisatge durant anys,

the relief of our landscape for years,

els booms dels 80, 70, 80,

the booms of the 80s, 70s, 80s

s'ha destruït molt l'ecosistema per construir,

the ecosystem has been heavily destroyed for construction,

bueno, doncs, moltes coses.

Well, then, many things.

Un model d'arquitectura a favor d'aquest turisme.

A model of architecture in favor of this tourism.

Aleshores, són dues línies d'acció, en aquest sentit,

Then, there are two lines of action in this regard,

o d'interpel·lar a dues bandes diferents?

or to interpellate in two different ways?

Estic d'acord amb tot això que dius.

I agree with everything you say.

De fet, el primer punt del manifest

In fact, the first point of the manifesto

parla dels objectius de desenvolupament sostenible.

talks about the sustainable development goals.

L'agenda 2030, som a 2034, falten 6 anys, no?

The 2030 agenda, we are in 2034, there are 6 years left, right?

Se suposa que hauríem d'estar molt a prop d'assolir-los,

We are supposed to be very close to achieving them.

aquests objectius.

these objectives.

Bé, el primer punt, precisament,

Well, the first point, precisely,

i els ODS és perquè crec que parlem moltíssim,

and the SDGs is because I think we talk a lot,

no d'ara ja, de fa un munt d'anys de sostenibilitat,

not just now, but for many years of sustainability,

però la practiquem molt poc, no?

but we practice it very little, don't we?

I, efectivament, hi ha aquestes paradoxes

Yes, indeed, there are these paradoxes.

que avui en dia ningú és capaç de desviar-se

that nowadays no one is capable of deviating

del discurs oficial, especialment si ets una administració pública,

from the official discourse, especially if you are a public administration,

d'aquests objectius i d'aquesta necessitat, diguéssim,

of these objectives and of this necessity, let's say,

d'harmonitzar l'activitat, les activitats,

to harmonize the activity, the activities,

i especialment l'activitat econòmica,

and especially the economic activity,

doncs, amb aquest respecte pel planeta,

well, with this respect for the planet,

però alhora, com bé dius, doncs,

but at the same time, as you rightly say, then,

ens posem medalles organitzant esdeveniments que,

we award ourselves medals by organizing events that,

si tu mires bé i penses un moment,

if you look closely and think for a moment,

van absolutament en contra del que aquests objectius

they go absolutely against what these objectives

de desenvolupament sostenible marquen, no?

sustainable development marks, doesn't it?

Per tant, sí que és veritat que hi ha, diguéssim,

Therefore, it is indeed true that there is, let's say,

aquesta contradicció, aquesta paradoxa,

this contradiction, this paradox,

i aleshores nosaltres sí que al final pensem que

and then we do think that in the end

la nostra aposta ferma en bona part sí que és

our strong bet is indeed largely so

a favor del turisme interior, del turisme de proximitat,

in favor of domestic tourism, of local tourism,

que no vol dir que necessàriament ara hàgim de deixar de viatjar,

that doesn't mean we necessarily have to stop traveling now,

no podem sortir fora, no es tracta d'això.

we cannot go outside, it's not about that.

Tenim una gran sort, jo sempre ho dic,

We are very lucky, I always say.

que és que vivim en un país realment privilegiat

that we live in a truly privileged country

en molts aspectes, jo què sé, a mi m'agrada dir,

In many ways, I don't know, I like to say,

per exemple, doncs, que el 24% de totes les espècies naturals,

for example, that 24% of all natural species,

de fauna, flora, d'Europa, es troben a Catalunya,

of fauna, flora, of Europe, are found in Catalonia,

que és només el 0,7% del territori de l'Unió Europea, no?

which is only 0.7% of the territory of the European Union, right?

O sigui, tenim una quarta part de tota la biodiversitat natural d'Europa

That is, we have a quarter of all the natural biodiversity of Europe.

en només el 0,7% del territori.

in only 0.7% of the territory.

Som un dels territoris, diguéssim, amb una biodiversitat més rica del món, no?

We are one of the territories, let's say, with one of the richest biodiversities in the world, right?

I podríem parlar de diversitat, patrimoni, de gastronomia,

We could talk about diversity, heritage, cuisine,

podríem parlar de tot, no és pas casualitat, diguéssim,

we could talk about everything, it is not a coincidence, let's say,

però, diguem, també una de les destinacions mundialment, diguéssim, més visitades, no?

but, let's say, also one of the most visited destinations worldwide, shall we?

Per tant, jo el que vull dir és que nosaltres, diguéssim,

Therefore, what I want to say is that we, let's say,

com a habitants d'aquest territori, doncs, tenim aquesta gran sort.

As inhabitants of this territory, then, we have this great fortune.

Jo diria que tenim el deure, doncs, de trobar un model, diguéssim,

I would say that we have a duty, therefore, to find a model, let's say,

que no vagi contra, precisament, contra tot això,

that does not go against, precisely, against all this,

contra aquest patrimoni que tenim,

against this heritage that we have,

i que alhora ens permeti gaudir, òbviament, del país,

and that at the same time allows us to enjoy, obviously, the country,

més del que segurament ho fem, no?

more than we probably do, right?

Perquè moltes vegades, nosaltres som els primers

Because many times, we are the first.

que hem bandejat o que hem valorat d'una manera poca,

that we have sidelined or that we have valued in a minimal way,

amb poc valor, que li hem donat poc valor, diguéssim,

with little value, that we have given it little value, let's say.

al fet de poder viatjar pel propi país.

to the ability to travel through one's own country.

Fins a quin punt som conscients, com a ciutadania,

To what extent are we aware, as citizens,

del que està suposant aquest model de turisme desenfrenat

of what this model of rampant tourism is implying

pel país pel que fa a destrucció?

for the country regarding destruction?

En som conscients? Perquè així com hem pogut veure com socialment

Are we aware of it? Because just as we have been able to see how socially

el concepte de ciutadania, el concepte de turisme,

the concept of citizenship, the concept of tourism,

el concepte que era, ha anat costant d'entendre,

the concept that it was, has gradually become difficult to understand,

i per més que arribem a mesures, també amb les seves contradiccions

and however much we come to measures, also with their contradictions

per part dels equips de govern, a la gent li costava entendre.

From the government teams' part, people found it hard to understand.

Aleshores, està passant una mica el mateix amb aquest model de turisme?

So, is something similar happening with this model of tourism?

Que encara no hi ha prou consciència de tot el que estem

That there is still not enough awareness of everything we are.

devastant en aquest sentit?

devastating in this sense?

S'ha creu dir, doncs, que al final, la consciència augmenta

It is believed to be said, then, that in the end, consciousness increases.

a mesura que tens afectacions directes en la teva vida,

as you have direct impacts on your life,

personals, sobretot això, no?

personal, especially that, right?

Personals, sí.

Personal, yes.

Certament no hem estat, com a país, dic, gaire amatents, diguéssim,

Certainly, we have not been very attentive as a country, I would say.

en els senyals que indicaven, de fa també, insisteixo, prou de temps,

in the signs that indicated, for some time now, I insist, enough time,

que no anem especialment bé en alguns aspectes, és a dir,

that we are not particularly doing well in some aspects, that is to say,

que tenim un sector, sí, que efectivament, doncs, de manera directa

that we have a sector, yes, that effectively, well, directly

és un 12-13% del PIB, diguéssim, en xifres, doncs,

it's about 12-13% of GDP, let's say, in figures, then,

realment el sector turístic és un sector que, a més a més,

really the tourism sector is a sector that, moreover,

puntualment, també, diguéssim, en moments històrics, doncs,

punctually, also, let's say, at historical moments, therefore,

ha estat, d'alguna manera, un sector que ha estirat

it has been, in some way, a sector that has stretched

del carro econòmic del país, això és veritat.

from the country's economic vehicle, this is true.

També és veritat que, al final, és un sector que crema

It is also true that, in the end, it is a sector that burns out.

i que dilapida molt, diguéssim, tot allò que promou, no?

And it squanders a lot, let's say, everything it promotes, right?

I, per tant, doncs, d'alguna manera, necessitem,

And, therefore, in some way, we need,

i hauríem de poder fer un canvi sense necessitat d'arribar al límit,

we should be able to make a change without needing to reach the limit,

com estem arribant en molts aspectes.

how we are arriving in many aspects.

Sap greu, ja et dic que sí, que efectivament, doncs,

I'm sorry, I already told you that yes, that indeed, then,

hàgim d'arribar, segurament, en aquests límits

we must reach, surely, these limits

per prendre aquesta consciència.

to gain this awareness.

En qualsevol cas, també penso que tenim una oportunitat,

In any case, I also think we have an opportunity,

perquè en aquests moments, doncs, sí que hi ha una certa

because at this moment, then, there is indeed a certain

conscienciació important, una massa crítica important,

important awareness, an important critical mass,

i també hi ha un sector que fa unes quantes dècades no existia,

and there is also a sector that did not exist a few decades ago,

que treballa amb uns paràmetres absolutament encaixats, jo diria,

that works with absolutely fitted parameters, I would say,

en el que és el que demana el sector turístic.

in what is being requested by the tourism sector.

El sector del segle XXI.

The sector of the 21st century.

I, aleshores, tenim molts reptes pendents, evidentment.

And so, we have many challenges ahead, obviously.

Un sector que, en general, a grans xifres, doncs, paga sous baixos.

A sector that, in general, in large figures, therefore pays low wages.

Un sector que, diguéssim, que té una qualitat

A sector that, let's say, has a quality.

que podria ser molt millor de la que és en alguns aspectes.

that could be much better than it is in some aspects.

Poc repartida, diguéssim, no?

Not very distributed, let's say, right?

En el sentit, doncs, que hi ha gent que es lucra molt en aquest sector,

In this sense, therefore, there are people who profit greatly in this sector,

perquè després és un sector que també poca gent, diguéssim,

because after that it's a sector that also few people, let's say,

se'n veu beneficiar de manera directa.

it benefits directly from it.

Doncs, aquí tenim un camí immens per córrer

Well, here we have an immense path to run.

i jo crec que aquesta presa de consciència el que permet, precisament,

And I believe that this awareness allows, precisely,

és que mica en mica puguem anar, doncs, també treballant

it is that little by little we can also go on working

a favor d'aquest canvi de model, no?

in favor of this model change, right?

Clar, diries que aquest model, a part d'aquesta manca de sostenibilitat,

Sure, you would say that this model, apart from this lack of sustainability,

d'aquest creixement infinit perillosíssim,

of this infinitely dangerous growth,

també és un model deshumanitzador o deshumanitzant,

it is also a dehumanizing model

perquè no podem deslligar aquest model de turisme, doncs,

because we cannot detach this model of tourism, then,

amb el concepte tan real i tan violent de gentrificació,

with the concept so real and so violent of gentrification,

de l'augment dels preus de lloguer,

of the increase in rental prices,

que ho veiem en el cas de la restauració,

which we see in the case of restoration,

sobretot en aquelles zones més tensionades,

especially in those more tense areas,

on estem veient que, per una banda,

we are seeing that, on the one hand,

la gent ha de marxar de viure dels seus pobles

people have to leave their towns to live

perquè ja no pot pagar l'habitatge,

because they can no longer afford the housing,

però és que, de rebot, al propi sector turístic això li està jugant a la contra,

but, as a result, this is backfiring on the tourism sector itself,

perquè tenim cambrers havent de dormir de temporada,

because we have waiters having to sleep for the season,

havent de dormir en furgonetes,

we have to sleep in vans,

que ja no poden ni pagar els preus de l'habitatge

that they can no longer afford housing prices

d'aquells llocs extremadament turístics que han expulsat la gent.

from those extremely touristy places that have displaced the locals.

Aleshores, és deshumanitzador.

Then, it is dehumanizing.

Mira, ara parlem d'oportunitats,

Look, now we talk about opportunities,

i això crec que també és una oportunitat,

and I think this is also an opportunity,

és a dir, certament el propi sector és el primer damnificat

that is to say, certainly the sector itself is the first affected

d'algunes de les polítiques, diguéssim,

of some of the policies, let's say,

que ha aplicat durant molt de temps, no?

that has been applied for a long time, hasn't it?

Hi ha una manca endèmica, diguéssim,

There is an endemic lack, let's say,

que tothom reconeix de personal qualificat

that everyone recognizes qualified personnel

per poder treballar en moltes de les baules d'aquest sector turístic,

to be able to work in many of the links of this tourist sector,

especialment, parlem del sector majoritari,

especially, we talk about the majority sector,

però jo diria que això és bastant generalitzat,

but I would say that this is quite widespread,

i per tant, d'alguna manera,

and therefore, in some way,

al sector li interessa també, diguéssim,

the sector is also interested, let's say,

que de mica en mica aquest model vagi redireccionant-se.

that little by little this model is redirected.

També haig de dir

I also have to say

que arreu del país hi ha un altre model turístic,

that throughout the country there is another tourist model,

és a dir, que nosaltres defensem un nou model turístic,

that is to say, we advocate for a new tourism model,

el que voldríem dir, al final,

what we would like to say, in the end,

és que volem que aquest model turístic s'escampi

It's that we want this tourism model to spread.

i sigui el majoritari,

and be the majority,

però un altre model turístic ja n'hi ha, ja existeix,

but another tourist model already exists,

és a dir, que hi ha moltíssima gent arreu del país

That is to say, there are a lot of people all over the country.

que té models d'empreses, de guiatge,

that has business models, guidance,

de senderisme vinculades al senderisme,

of hiking related to hiking,

o vinculades al turisme no gastronòmic,

or linked to non-gastronomic tourism,

o vinculades al turisme cultural,

or linked to cultural tourism,

que són interessantíssimes,

that are very interesting,

que fan una gran aportació també al territori

that also make a great contribution to the territory

en el qual s'endinsen,

in which they delve into,

i que per tant, diguéssim, jo diria que vaja,

and therefore, I would say that, well,

vull dir que el model més o menys està fixat.

I mean that the model is more or less fixed.

I val a dir també que fa un any, una miqueta més d'un any,

And it's worth saying that a year ago, a little more than a year ago,

es va signar el compromís nacional per un turisme responsable,

the national commitment for responsible tourism was signed,

que d'alguna manera va néixer precisament

that somehow was born precisely

a partir d'aquest manifest,

from this manifesto,

però que ha estat signat pel gruix del sector

but it has been signed by the bulk of the sector

i també, evidentment, per la Generalitat de Catalunya

and also, obviously, for the Government of Catalonia

i diputacions,

and provincial councils,

i al final, diguéssim, aquest compromís

and in the end, let's say, this commitment

d'alguna manera ens obliga a tots

in some way it forces us all

a anar entomant aquestes externalitats negatives

to address these negative externalities

que si no féssim absolutament res

that if we did absolutely nothing

anirien en augment.

they would increase.

Jo penso que tothom ha pres consciència

I think everyone has become aware.

que aquest límit, si no hi hem arribat,

that this limit, if we have not reached it,

el tenim a tocar com a sector, ho dic,

we have it within reach as a sector, I say,

i aleshores, bé, doncs ara és el moment

And then, well, now is the moment.

precisament de posar sobre la taula la necessitat

precisely to bring to the table the need

i el com fem aquesta transició.

And how do we make this transition.

És el mateix parlar de turisme d'interior

It is the same to talk about inland tourism.

que turisme de proximitat, o hi ha matisos?

Is it proximity tourism, or are there nuances?

Hi ha matisos.

There are nuances.

Turisme d'interior seria el turisme per dins del país,

Interior tourism would be tourism within the country.

del teu propi país, catalans fent turisme pels països catalans.

from your own country, Catalans doing tourism in the Catalan countries.

Això seria turisme d'interior.

This would be rural tourism.

Turisme de proximitat és un turisme que es produeix en un radi,

Proximity tourism is a tourism that occurs within a radius,

que això sí que pot ser,

that this can indeed be,

hi ha gent que l'entén mil quilòmetres,

there are people who understand it a thousand kilometers,

però podríem considerar que el turisme francès

but we could consider that French tourism

quan ve a Catalunya fa turisme de proximitat.

When he/she comes to Catalonia, he/she does local tourism.

Aleshores hi ha una mica aquest matís.

So there is a bit of this nuance.

També, a vegades, com a ciutadans,

Also, sometimes, as citizens,

diguéssim que som tants els gegants

let's say that there are so many of us giants

i a vegades tan invisibles

and sometimes so invisible

i amb tants caps contra els que lluitem

And with so many heads against which we fight.

que acabem no fent res per aquella cosa

that we end up doing nothing for that thing

de què puc fer jo, no?

What can I do, right?

Però sí que hi ha petites tries també

But there are also small selections.

a l'hora de fer turisme

when it comes to tourism

que podem marcar aquest model.

that we can mark this model.

Igual que decidim comprar en una gran superfície

Just as we decide to shop at a large supermarket.

o al comerç de proximitat,

or to local commerce,

també a l'hora de fer turisme a nivell individual

also when it comes to individual tourism

podem generar canvis?

Can we make changes?

Evidentment que sí, sempre.

Of course, always.

Això sempre és possible.

This is always possible.

En aquesta societat capitalista en què vivim,

In this capitalist society in which we live,

al final, el dret a consumidors

In the end, the right to consumers.

el tenim sempre a priori.

we always have it a priori.

I per tant, doncs,

And therefore, then,

diguéssim, en aquest catàleg

let's say, in this catalog

de possibilitats turístiques que tenim,

of tourist possibilities that we have,

doncs cadascú fa la seva tria.

Well, everyone makes their own choice.

Jo crec que,

I believe that,

ho hem parlat moltes vegades a la revista,

we have talked about it many times in the magazine,

però també amb molta altra gent,

but also with many other people,

estem en un punt en què hauríem d'aprendre,

we are at a point where we should learn,

dit amb una frase,

said in one sentence,

a viatjar menys però a viatjar millor.

to travel less but to travel better.

És a dir, també moltes vegades

That is to say, often many times as well.

hem arribat a un punt en què

we have reached a point where

pràcticament només importa

practically only matters

posar un mapa mundi

put a world map

i unes xinxetes de colors al damunt, no?

And some colored push pins on top, right?

Però quina és la qualitat,

But what is the quality,

què t'entreus, diguéssim, d'aquests viatges,

what do you think about these trips,

moltes vegades, no?

many times, right?

Jo penso que al final

I think that in the end

el planeta ens obliga a fer un canvi en aquest sentit

the planet forces us to make a change in this regard

i es pot,

and it is possible,

i s'ha de continuar viatjant,

and we must keep traveling,

jo no dic pas que no, però en tot cas

I’m not saying no, but in any case

ho hem de fer d'una manera diferent.

We have to do it in a different way.

O sigui, segurament quan hem de viatjar fora,

So, probably when we have to travel abroad,

doncs ho hem de fer més dies,

then we have to do it more days,

amb unes condicions diferents,

with different conditions,

recuperar la idea del viatge com a experiència cultural,

recover the idea of travel as a cultural experience,

que això és una cosa, diguéssim,

that this is something, let's say,

que també en els orígens hi era

that it was also there in the origins

i que avui en dia, doncs moltes vegades

and that nowadays, many times

això no existeix.

this does not exist.

Això és pur lleure, no?

This is pure leisure, isn't it?

Recuperant aquests valors inicials

Recovering these initial values

d'aquesta experiència turística o de viatge,

from this tourist or travel experience,

jo penso que aconseguirem,

I think we will achieve it.

o hem d'aconseguir, diguéssim,

or we need to achieve, let's say,

anar d'alguna manera

to go in some way

a aprendre a viatjar d'una manera diferent.

to learn to travel in a different way.

Clar, i abans parlàvem de les contradiccions

Of course, and before we were talking about the contradictions.

dels consistoris

of the councils

o dels equips de govern, però també les nostres,

or of the governing teams, but also ours,

no?, perquè podem trobar-nos

no?, because we can meet

sent, per exemple, llogaters pels judicats,

felt, for example, tenants for the courts,

pels preus de l'habitatge,

for housing prices,

però alhora, com que no tenim

but at the same time, since we do not have

la possibilitat de viatjar,

the possibility of traveling,

quan decidim viatjar, decidim anar a un Airbnb

when we decide to travel, we decide to go to an Airbnb

en lloc d'una casa de turisme rural.

instead of a rural tourism house.

Aquestes petites accions està bé

These small actions are fine.

com de pensar-les

how to think them

abans de planificar el viatge, no?

before planning the trip, right?

On posem els nostres diners

Where do we put our money?

i aquí donem ales per continuar creixent, no?

And here we give wings to continue growing, right?

Sí, sí, totalment, al final

Yes, yes, totally, in the end.

el turisme també, insisteixo,

tourism too, I insist,

és una activitat econòmica

it is an economic activity

i per tant nosaltres també la podem viure,

and therefore we can also experience it,

o bé com a, si és que som del sector,

or as, if we are from the sector,

com a professionals i com a organitzadors,

as professionals and as organizers,

també la podem veure, o sigui, des de la perspectiva

we can also see it, that is, from the perspective

de l'oferta, però també la veiem

of the offer, but we also see it

des de la perspectiva de la demanda.

from the perspective of demand.

Al final, poc o molt, tots som turistes

In the end, whether little or a lot, we are all tourists.

en algun moment o altre, no?

At some point or another, right?

I per tant, evidentment, aquí prenem decisions, no?

And therefore, obviously, here we make decisions, right?

I a l'hora de prendre decisions,

And when it comes to making decisions,

doncs, esclar, podem ser coherents

well, of course, we can be coherent

amb aquesta necessitat

with this need

i amb aquestes idees

and with these ideas

que potser en un moment determinat

that perhaps at a certain moment

ens han portat a criticar

they have brought us to criticize

determinades polítiques

certain policies

a favor d'un determinat model de turisme,

in favor of a certain model of tourism,

però, alhora,

but, at the same time,

idealment

ideally

hauríem de ser conseqüents i, per tant,

we should be consistent and, therefore,

a l'hora també de nosaltres de fer aquestes

at the same time for us to do these

tries, hauríem de poder

tries, we should be able to

ser responsables

to be responsible

i ajudar, diguéssim,

and help, let's say,

a beneficiar aquest model

to benefit this model

i aquest sector que treballa

and this sector that works

amb unes claus diferents

with different keys

a les del turisme de masses.

to mass tourism.

Doncs avui hem parlat d'això, de la necessitat que té

Well, today we talked about this, about the need it has.

el nostre país de fer un canvi pel que fa

our country to make a change regarding

al model turístic, justament per potenciar

to the tourist model, precisely to enhance

el turisme que neix del nostre territori

the tourism that arises from our territory

i que va cap al nostre país.

and it goes towards our country.

I plegat ho hem fet amb el Joan Morales,

We have done it together with Joan Morales,

editor de la revista Descobrir.

editor of the magazine Descobrir.

Joan, un plaer, moltes gràcies per acompanyar-nos.

Joan, a pleasure, thank you very much for joining us.

Un plaer meu, gràcies.

A pleasure of mine, thank you.

Vosaltres que ens esteu escoltant,

You who are listening to us,

recordeu, teniu al vostre abast totes les publicacions

remember, you have all the publications at your disposal

a iKiosk en format digital on podreu llegir

to iKiosk in digital format where you can read

i també descarregar més de 150

and also download more than 150

revistes per qualsevol dispositiu.

magazines for any device.

Us esperem aquí al pròxim episodi.

We'll be waiting for you here in the next episode.

Aquí ja ho sabeu i trobeu

Here you already know and find it.

de tot en un sol lloc.

everything in one place.

Va, escolteu-nos i connecteu amb la cultura.

Come on, listen to us and connect with the culture.

Gràcies a l'APEC.

Thanks to APEC.

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The podcast of the magazines.