Capítol 15: Ètica, igualtat i dades

L'Agència de Ciberseguretat de Catalunya us ofereix aquest espai.

The Cybersecurity Agency of Catalonia offers you this space.

La Carina és enginyera informàtica i professora universitària

Carina is a computer engineer and university professor.

especialitzada en intel·ligència artificial i dades.

specialized in artificial intelligence and data.

Volia acabar el Felicitat Digital parlant d'ètica,

I wanted to end the Digital Happiness by talking about ethics,

aquesta ètica necessària per posar alguns topalls a la tecnologia

this ethics is necessary to set some limits on technology

perquè tot això no acabi esclatant-nos a les mans, al cervell, al món.

so that all this doesn't explode in our hands, in our brains, in the world.

Hem parlat d'un món de tecnologia que hem d'aplicar a la nostra vida diària.

We have talked about a world of technology that we need to apply to our daily lives.

Aquest no ha volgut ser mai un podcast especialitzat,

This has never wanted to be a specialized podcast,

sinó que ha volgut ser un podcast de divulgació per a tots els públics

but has wanted to be a podcast for popular science for all audiences

perquè entenguem la importància del digital a les nostres vides.

so we can understand the importance of digital in our lives.

I tancarà aquest podcast, com sempre, el director d'estratègia

This podcast will be closed, as always, by the strategy director.

de l'Agència de Ciberseguretat de Catalunya, Tomàs Roig.

from the Cybersecurity Agency of Catalonia, Tomàs Roig.

He d'agrair-li aquestes 15 classes que han estat per a vosaltres,

I have to thank you for these 15 classes that have been for you.

però sobretot per a mi.

but above all for me.

És com un màster en seguretat digital que he fet

It's like a master's in digital security that I have completed.

i em sento molt més feliç i molt més segura en aquesta apassionada vida digital.

and I feel much happier and much more confident in this passionate digital life.

Els tacks d'avui són

Today's tasks are

Dades

Data

Ètica

Ethics

Igualtat

Equality

Informàtica

Computer science

Investigació

Research

Algorisme

Algorithm

Radar Covid

Covid Radar

Etiqueta fet per dones TIC

Label made by women in ICT

Pensament computacional

Computational thinking

Busquem el benestar digital

We seek digital well-being.

Entrem a la universitat.

We enter the university.

Hola, Carina!

Hello, Carina!

Hola, Mariola! Què tal? Com estàs?

Hello, Mariola! How are you? How are you doing?

Escolta, Carina, quin tema del món digital t'apassiona més?

Listen, Carina, which topic in the digital world excites you the most?

I ets més feliç quan en parles?

And are you happier when you talk about it?

Ostres, què m'has de dir ara?

Wow, what do you have to tell me now?

Mira, doncs el meu, no?

Look, then mine, right?

Perquè jo em dedico a la informàtica i a la ciència de les dades

Because I dedicate myself to computer science and data science.

i a la intel·ligència artificial des de fa tants, tants anys

and to artificial intelligence for so many, many years

que quasi, quasi forma part de la meva vida, doncs aquest.

that almost, almost forms part of my life, because this.

O sigui, tu et donin dades, les analitzis, buscar el big data, això t'apassiona, no?

In other words, you are given data, you analyze it, looking for big data, that excites you, right?

Bueno, no cal que sigui big.

Well, it doesn't have to be big.

Que siguin dades que venen de problemes difícils

Let them be data that come from difficult problems.

i que serveixin per respondre preguntes

and that serve to answer questions

que,

that,

que les persones ens fem i que encara no tenim contestades,

that we make ourselves and that we still do not have answered,

ja en tinc prou.

I have had enough.

Home, o sigui, el tema és que tu t'agrades a resoldre problemes, vols dir.

At home, I mean, the thing is that you like to solve problems, you mean.

Sí, senyora!

Yes, ma'am!

Sí! Que bo, això, no?

Yes! That's good, isn't it?

És una mica la clau, no? La clau de tota l'enginyeria

It's a bit of the key, isn't it? The key to all engineering.

és aportar solucions a problemes que no es resolen de forma fàcil, com si diguéssim, no?

It's about providing solutions to problems that aren't easily solved, so to speak, right?

Des del punt de vista d'eines software que no es veuen, que no es toquen,

From the point of view of software tools that are not seen, that are not touched,

que no tenen entitat física, si tu vols, no?

that have no physical entity, if you want, right?

Però que resolen problemes molt grossos.

But they solve very big problems.

La Carina Giver és enginyera informàtica, professora universitària,

Carina Giver is a computer engineer, university professor,

està especialitzada en intel·ligència artificial i big data,

is specialized in artificial intelligence and big data.

és directora del Centre d'Investigació d'Intel·ligència Artificial de l'UPC,

she is the director of the Artificial Intelligence Research Center of the UPC,

professora de la Facultat d'Informàtica.

Professor at the Faculty of Computer Science.

Trobo interessant que vas crear un vice de ganat de presidència en igualtat i ètica

I find it interesting that you created a vice of livestock for presidency in equality and ethics.

i també, en gènere, a l'Associació Catalana d'Intel·ligència Artificial.

and also, in gender, at the Catalan Association of Artificial Intelligence.

Explica'ns una mica com va ser el teu origen

Tell us a little about how your origin was.

i després arribarem a tot això que has creat per potenciar la presència de dones en tecnologia,

and then we will get to all of this that you have created to enhance the presence of women in technology,

però, clar, jo m'estic imaginant el teu primer moment,

but, of course, I am imagining your first moment,

quants anys fa que vas entrar tu a la facultat?

How many years ago did you enter the faculty?

Home, doncs mira, 30... no sé, 35 o 36, no? Els hauria de comptar amb compte, eh?

Well, look, 30... I don't know, 35 or 36, right? I should count them carefully, huh?

Clar, però aquell moment, o sigui, si ara estem dient que és problemàtic,

Sure, but that moment, I mean, if we are saying that it is problematic now,

que no hi ha dones en tecnologia, o sigui, aquell moment, què? Quantes éreu?

that there are no women in technology, I mean, that moment, what? How many of you were there?

Érem unes miques més, érem unes miques més.

We were a few more girls, we were a few more girls.

De fet, ha estat més cap aquí que hi ha hagut una treballada molt grossa.

In fact, it has been more in this direction that there has been a significant effort.

Jo, quan entro a la facultat, érem pràcticament un 30% de noies.

When I entered the faculty, we were practically 30% girls.

I amb el temps això va anar pitjor, pitjor, pitjor, pitjor.

And over time this got worse, worse, worse, worse.

Fa uns pocs anys no érem ni un 7% d'alumnes a la facultat,

A few years ago, we were not even 7% of the students at the faculty.

que aquí ens vàrem alarmar moltíssim i ens vàrem començar a preocupar de forma urgent.

that here we were very alarmed and we began to worry urgently.

I aleshores, bé, ja hi havia... a la facultat meva ja hi havia l'ex-tegana,

And then, well, there was... in my faculty there was the ex-Tejana,

que era la Núria Castell, que ja havia fet algunes coses de gènere

that Núria Castell, who had already done some gender work

i entre totes vàrem començar a tornar a posar el vaixell en marxa

And among all of us, we began to put the ship back in motion.

perquè ho vam considerar que era una situació ja d'emergència, no?

because we considered it was already an emergency situation, right?

Quina explicació li doneu a això?

What explanation do you give for this?

Nosaltres aquest fenomen és un fenomen que s'ha donat a tot el món.

We this phenomenon is a phenomenon that has occurred all over the world.

Va haver-hi una època que es barallava la hipòtesi que quan havíem canviat el títol,

There was a time when the hypothesis was debated that when we had changed the title,

el nom de la titulació d'una llicenciatura a una enginyeria,

the name of the degree of a bachelor's in engineering

allà les noies s'havien sentit desvinculades, com si diguéssim, no?

There, the girls had felt disconnected, shall we say, right?

Però el cert és que França, per exemple, no l'ha fet aquest canvi de nom

But the truth is that France, for example, has not made this name change.

i va experimentar la mateixa de ballar.

and experienced the same of dancing.

Per tant, no és només això, jo més aviat m'inclino per pensar

Therefore, it's not just that; I tend to think more that...

que ens hem anat movent a un món on el missatge mediàtic cada vegada és més potent,

that we have been moving into a world where the media message is increasingly powerful,

cada vegada t'impregna més i està molt carregat de patriarcat tot el missatge que rebem, no?

Every time it becomes more ingrained in you and the message we receive is very loaded with patriarchy, right?

Llavors tu, sense voler, contínuament les nenes, des que són molt petites,

Then you, unwittingly, continuously the girls, since they are very small,

estan empenyades a ocupar aquest rol de dona dintre l'esquema social

they are compelled to occupy this role of woman within the social framework

que et porta a centrar-te en les activitats de cura i a fer aquests papers més una mica d'educar,

what leads you to focus on care activities and to make these roles also a bit about educating,

i això comporta unes professions que estan molt lluny de la tecnologia, no?

And this involves professions that are far from technology, right?

Si en això li afegeixes que la percepció que tenen les nenes,

If you add to this the perception that girls have,

perquè s'ha fet molt mal la pedagogia d'aquestes professions,

because the pedagogy of these professions has been hurt a lot,

és que un informàtic és un tio amb rastes que està en un búnquer programant amb l'hamburguesa plena amb grunes,

a computer scientist is a guy with dreadlocks who is in a bunker programming with a burger full of crumbs.

doncs clar, s'ha apuntat l'hambre amb les ganes de comer, diria jo, no?

Well, of course, hunger has been registered with the desire to eat, I would say, right?

I llavors es perd l'interès per aquest tipus de carreres.

And then interest in this type of careers is lost.

I una mica el que estem jugant nosaltres ara

And a little bit what we are playing now.

és a trencar aquest estereotip,

it is about breaking this stereotype,

és a comunicar molt que jo soc informàtica des de fa molts anys

I have been working in IT for many years.

i no he estat mai en un búnquer amb l'hamburguesa programant ni porto rastes, no?

And I have never been in a bunker with the hamburger programming nor do I have dreadlocks, right?

Llavors juguem una mica a explicar quin és el rol social de totes aquestes professions

Then we play a little to explain what the social role of all these professions is.

i com tu des d'una posició de tecnòloga també pots millorar la salut,

and like you, from a position as a technologist, you can also improve health,

cal que siguis l'enfermera per millorar la salut, no?

You need to be the nurse to improve health, right?

Clar.

Of course.

De fet, els informàtics i les informàtiques ara

In fact, the computer scientists now

ajuden a resoldre molts problemes.

they help to solve many problems.

Estan en tots els àmbits.

They are in all areas.

Estan en canvi climàtic, estan en sostenibilitat,

They are in climate change, they are in sustainability.

en qualitat de l'aire, en benestar,

in air quality, in well-being,

en salut, en educació i no sé quantes coses.

in health, in education, and I don't know how many things.

Clar, és que la paraula d'informàtic o informàtica

Of course, it's that the word computer scientist or computing

està una mica en desús, no?

it's a bit outdated, isn't it?

O sigui, em dóna la sensació que

So, it gives me the feeling that

quan estàvem aprenent com funcionava internet als principis

when we were learning how the internet worked in its early days

dèiem mira l'informàtic

we said look at the IT specialist

i ara no sé de quina manera

and now I don't know how

però no s'està utilitzant tant aquesta paraula concreta, no?

but this specific word is not being used as much, right?

Sí, fins i tot tant, perquè es parla potser més de tics, no?

Yes, even so much, because maybe we talk more about tics, right?

Perquè ara hi ha més aquest binomi

Because now there is more of this binomial.

telecomunicacions, informàtica, tot una mica mig barrejat.

telecommunications, computer science, all a bit mixed together.

Es parla de tics, es parla d'intel·ligència artificial...

It talks about tics, it talks about artificial intelligence...

O potser, Carina, és pel fet aquest que tu dius,

Or maybe, Carina, it’s because of this thing that you say,

que esteu a tot arreu.

that you are everywhere.

Sí, sí, de fet, estem a tot arreu.

Yes, yes, in fact, we are everywhere.

O sigui, la informàtica en aquest moment

So, computing at this moment

és una de les professions més transversals que existeix

It is one of the most transversal professions that exists.

i a més a més compleix un rol

and furthermore fulfills a role

que a mi m'agrada sempre molt explicar-ho

that I always really like to explain it

que és com instrumental, no?

It's like instrumental, right?

O sigui, tu estàs sempre al servei d'un altre que té un problema.

So, you are always at the service of someone else who has a problem.

Ets el que li resoldràs el problema.

You are the one who will solve the problem for him.

Però el problema el té el metge, o el té el sociòleg,

But the problem lies with the doctor, or with the sociologist,

o el té l'enginyer, o el té l'arquitecte,

or you have the engineer, or you have the architect,

o el té la mestra, o el té no sé qui, no?

either the teacher has it, or I don't know who has it, right?

I llavors tu, amb la tecnologia, construeixes aquestes solucions.

And then you, with technology, build these solutions.

Ara hi ha molta escletxa digital

Now there is a lot of digital divide.

perquè no està al 100% de la població digitalitzada.

because not all of the population is 100% digitized.

Però clar, en un moment donat, en el futur,

But of course, at some point in the future,

quan tothom ja en sàpiga, perquè

when everyone already knows about it, because

potser arribarem a un futur que tothom en sap,

maybe we'll reach a future that everyone knows about,

no sé si fins i tot tots acabarem sent informàtics

I don't know if even all of us will end up being computer scientists.

i programant de forma molt fàcil les nostres coses.

and programming our things very easily.

Tu creus que això pot arribar a passar?

Do you think this could happen?

Mira, hauria de ser el que passés

Look, it should be what happens.

perquè anem cap a un món on la tecnologia

because we are heading towards a world where technology

jugarà el paper d'una infraestructura central,

it will play the role of a central infrastructure,

com si diguéssim, no?

as if we were saying, right?

Però no sé si anem en aquesta direcció o no, eh?

But I don't know if we're going in that direction or not, huh?

Perquè ara hi ha plantejada una reforma educativa

Because an educational reform is now being proposed.

on tota la formació en informàtica

in all computer training

se'n va cap a una àrea una mica secundària,

he is heading towards a somewhat secondary area,

com si diguéssim, i no ho tenim molt clar

as if we were saying, and we are not very clear about it

com acabarà passant això. Però sí que és cert,

how this will eventually happen. But it is true,

de fet, nosaltres des de fa molts anys reivindiquem

in fact, we have been claiming for many years

que es treballi perquè des de la mateixa educació primària

that work is done so that from the very primary education

es treballin les competències de pensament computacional,

the competencies of computational thinking are worked on,

perquè això és el que garantitzaria

because this is what would guarantee

que tothom es podria relacionar amb la tecnologia,

that everyone could relate to technology,

jo sempre dic d'una forma amable, no?

I always say it in a friendly way, don’t I?

I tenir-la ben integrada en el seu context

And to have it well integrated into its context.

per poder-la manegar amb facilitat.

to be able to handle it with ease.

Oi, quantes coses interessants!

Oh, how many interesting things!

Clar, pensament computacional, m'esclata el cap!

Of course, computational thinking blows my mind!

Posa'ns un petit exemple, tu que ets tan bona divulgadora,

Give us a small example, you who are such a good communicator,

del que podria ser el pensament computacional.

of what computational thinking could be.

El pensament computacional està relacionat

Computational thinking is related.

sobretot amb la capacitat d'anàlisi

especially with the ability to analyze

i amb la capacitat de, potser de descomposar

and with the ability to perhaps decompose

una cosa complexa en trossos petits

a complex thing in small pieces

i endreçar-ho bé per dir, doncs ara faig

I'll tidy it up well to say, so now I'm doing it.

primer una cosa, després una altra i una altra

first one thing, then another and another

i al final tindré la solució completa, no?

And in the end, I'll have the complete solution, right?

I això és la base del que després et permet programar

And this is the basis of what then allows you to program.

i el que després et permet relacionar-te fàcil.

And what allows you to connect easily afterwards.

De fet, mira, això és una cosa que ens passava, eh?

In fact, look, this is something that used to happen to us, huh?

Quan jo vaig començar la carrera,

When I started my degree,

la gent no estudiava informàtica ni a l'institut,

people didn't study computer science even in high school,

ni al col·le, ni enlloc, ni teníem PCs ni res, no?

neither at school, nor anywhere, we didn't have PCs or anything, right?

I el primer curs de carrera, de fet,

And the first year of university, in fact,

nosaltres érem l'única carrera que tenia

we were the only race I had

el servei psicològic inclòs a l'assegurança escolar.

the psychological service included in the school insurance.

Perquè durant el primer any de carrera

Because during the first year of college

superava un canvi d'estructura mental molt gran,

overcame a very significant mental structure change,

perquè nosaltres no teníem aquesta competència

because we did not have this competence

i l'havíem de desenvolupar en un any

And we had to develop it in a year.

i si no, no podies aprovar cap examen, no?

And if not, you couldn't pass any exam, could you?

I era un canvi d'estructura mental important.

It was an important change of mental structure.

Home, això que dius és una mica, també, tenir lògica, no?

Well, what you're saying is also a bit logical, right?

Està molt relacionat amb la lògica,

It is very related to logic,

molt relacionat amb la lògica

highly related to logic

i molt relacionat amb la seqüenciació de passes.

and very related to the sequencing of steps.

Ara et diré una cosa molt tonta, però, per exemple,

Now I will tell you something very silly, but, for example,

quan tu vols muntar una cita amb un grup de gent, no?,

when you want to set up a meeting with a group of people, right?

hi ha tota una sèrie de coses que,

there is a whole series of things that,

si no les fas en l'ordre que toques,

if you don't do them in the order you should,

es produeixen malentesos i després la gent no es troba, no?

Misunderstandings occur and then people don't meet, right?

Si això ho fas quan codifiques en un programa, doncs,

If you do this when coding in a program, then,

el que passa és que el programa no funciona, bàsicament, no?

What happens is that the program doesn't work, basically, right?

Llavors, mentre amb les persones això ho pots endreçar,

Then, while with people you can sort this out,

però si ho tens tot ben estructurat i ben organitzat,

but if you have everything well structured and well organized,

això primer allò, després no sé què ara,

this first that, then I don't know what now,

primer calculo l'hora, després dic el dia,

first I calculate the time, then I say the day,

després veig el lloc, després veig les persones

then I see the place, then I see the people

i no me'n deixo cap i pum, pum, pum, pum, pum,

and I don't leave any out and bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,

tot funciona, no?

Everything works, right?

Llavors, això són competències

Then, these are competencies.

que les pots desenvolupar des de molt petit

that you can develop from a very young age

i que permeten, després, fer tecnologia

and that allow, afterwards, to make technology

o relacionar-te amb la tecnologia,

or relate to technology,

utilitzar-la de forma més àgil,

use it more efficiently,

com si diguéssim.

as we would say.

Ara m'ha fet gràcia tot això que has dit,

Now I found all this you said funny,

perquè precisament el cliché, allò que dius de trencar rols,

because precisely the cliché, what you say about breaking roles,

els informàtics, la gent diu que són desordenats

computers, people say they are messy

i dius, perdona, amb aquesta lògica,

and you say, excuse me, with this logic,

t'has dit computacional,

you have said computational,

al revés, hauríeu de ser superordenats, no?

On the contrary, you should be super organized, right?

No existeix ser desordenat i ser informàtic,

There is no such thing as being disorganized and being a computer scientist.

no funcionaria mai cap programa.

no program would ever work.

Per això, escolta, abans parlàvem de les dones

That's why, listen, we were talking about women earlier.

i he vist precisament per xarxes una campanya

I have seen precisely on social media a campaign.

amb un hashtag que es diu

with a hashtag called

Fetperdonatic.

Made for forgiveness.

Explica'ns què és això que heu fet,

Tell us what this is that you have done.

com impregnat el Twitter

how impregnated Twitter

amb aquest hashtag de Fetperdonatic.

with this hashtag of MakeForgiveness.

Mira, això és la campanya

Look, this is the campaign.

de la Comissió de Gènere

from the Gender Commission

que porto al Col·legi Oficial d'Enginyeria Informàtica

what I bring to the Official College of Computer Engineering

i és la que hem dissenyat

and it's the one we have designed

per aquest any pel Dia de la Dona i la Nena a la Ciència,

for this year for International Day of Women and Girls in Science,

que va ser el dia, el divendres 11 de febrer, no?

Was it on the day, Friday, February 11th, right?

És un intent de fer visible

It is an attempt to make visible.

les diferents cares que té la nostra professió

the different faces that our profession has

i fer visible quantíssimes dones hi ha

and make visible how many women there are

que estan exercint aquesta professió

who are practicing this profession

des d'unes posicions que estan molt lluny

from positions that are very far away

d'aquest senyor de les rastres i el búnquer, no?

of this man with the tracks and the bunker, right?

I aleshores el que hem fet ha estat

And then what we have done is

les dones de la nostra xarxa, com si diguéssim,

the women of our network, so to speak,

hem fet unes petites plantilles de WhatsApp

we have made some small WhatsApp templates

i cada una explicant una cosa molt curta

and each one explaining a very short thing

entre totes les coses que fa

among all the things it does

i les anem visibilitzant

and we are making them visible

des del compte de Dones Co-Aim, no?

From the account of Dones Co-Aim, right?

Llavors, això és una campanya que no és només del dia 11.

So, this is a campaign that is not just on the 11th.

Va començar el dia 11.

It started on the 11th.

Estan recollint de totes les dones tecnòlogues

They are collecting from all the women technologists.

que vulguin omplir aquesta plantilla,

that want to fill out this form,

ens la poden enviar seguint les instruccions

they can send it to us by following the instructions

que diu la pròpia campanya.

that says the campaign itself.

Nosaltres les anirem publicant totes, totes, totes, totes

We will publish them all, all, all, all.

fins al dia 8 de març

until March 8th

i el dia 8 de març

and on March 8th

les tindrem ja totes recollides

we will have them all collected by then

en una web del col·legi

on a school website

i les deixarem allà immortalitzades.

And we will leave them there immortalized.

Ah, molt bé, molt bé.

Ah, very good, very good.

Ens hem de visibilitzar entre nosaltres.

We need to make ourselves visible to each other.

Per tant, això, apunteu. Fet per Dona TIC.

Therefore, take note of this. Made by Women in ICT.

Bé, anem a parlar d'un tema,

Well, let's talk about a topic,

aquest tema que t'apassiona

this topic that excites you

i jo vull que siguis feliç en el podcast de Felicitat Digital,

And I want you to be happy in the podcast of Digital Happiness.

que és el tema de les dades,

what is the subject of the data,

però no sé si en aquesta pandèmia

but I don't know if in this pandemic

on s'han reivindicat tant les dades,

where the data have been claimed so much,

prou ja de tertulians,

enough with the talk show hosts,

portem els científics,

we bring the scientists,

portem a parlar a la ràdio la gent que tracti amb dades,

We bring to the radio people who deal with data.

no sé si han estat aquestes dades,

I don't know if it has been this data,

aquesta monitorització dia a dia

this day-to-day monitoring

de la pandèmia,

of the pandemic,

un mal de cap o una solució,

a headache or a solution,

així com a gran genèric.

just as a great generic.

Mira, realment aquest és la meva principal...

Look, really this is my main...

la meva principal

my main

àrea d'especialització.

area of specialization.

Jo em dedico a extreure coneixement

I dedicate myself to extracting knowledge.

estratègic o coneixement de valor

strategic or value knowledge

de les dades a base d'analitzar-les

from the data by analyzing them

i amb aquesta pandèmia

and with this pandemic

una de les primeres coses

one of the first things

que ens ha passat és que

what has happened to us is that

estàvem intentant

we were trying

construir models basats en dades

build data-driven models

sobre unes dades que no existien.

about data that did not exist.

O sigui, nosaltres quan vam començar

That is, when we started

quan vam començar a intentar

when we started to try

fer prediccions de la pandèmia

make predictions about the pandemic

al mes de març,

in the month of March,

no hi havia històric de pandèmia

there was no history of pandemic

de Covid, per tant, tot el que eren

of Covid, therefore, everything that were

models que es basen en l'històric

models based on the historical data

de les coses no es podia fer servir.

of the things could not be used.

Després va passar una altra cosa

Then another thing happened.

que aquesta també és perquè

that this is also because

no tenim encara tots els mecanismes

we do not yet have all the mechanisms

ben desenvolupats

well developed

de com s'injecta la dada

how the data is injected

en un procés de presa de decisions

in a decision-making process

o en un procés d'elaboració de polítiques,

or in a policy-making process,

i llavors ens va passar al principi

and then it happened to us at the beginning

que algunes decisions

that some decisions

que es prenien des del punt de vista sanitari,

which were taken from a health perspective,

que no discuteixo perquè segurament

that I don't argue because surely

des del punt de vista sanitari

from a health perspective

estaven ben preses, no?

They were well taken, weren't they?

Però quan al principi, al principi de tot

But when at the beginning, at the very beginning

la consellera ens deia

the councilor was telling us

hem canviat el protocol i les persones infectades

we have changed the protocol and the infected people

ara es confinaran a casa.

Now they will be confined to home.

La primeríssima vegada que es va dir això

The very first time this was said.

ens van dir, hi haurà un equip

They told us there will be a team.

que anirà a casa d'aquesta persona

who will go to this person's house

a fer la PCR. Però això, clar, va durar 3 dies

to do the PCR. But this, of course, lasted 3 days.

perquè quan es va començar a posar la gent molt malalta

because when people started to get very sick

la gent es quedava a casa,

people stayed at home,

trucava per telèfon, el metge deia

I was calling on the phone, the doctor said.

segurament tens Covid, el deixava confinat,

you probably have Covid, I would keep him quarantined,

però ningú li feia la PCR

but no one was doing the PCR for him

i per tant aquestes persones

and therefore these people

no han estat comptades

they have not been counted

en cap estadística, d'acord?

In no statistics, okay?

I l'impacte que ha tingut això

And the impact that this has had

en el rendiment dels models de dades

in the performance of data models

ha sigut tremendo. Llavors no sé si

it has been tremendous. Then I don't know if

us en recordeu que abans de Setmana Santa

do you remember that before Easter

del primer confinament

from the first lockdown

es deia per la tele

it was said on the TV

els científics han decidit que aniran a buscar

the scientists have decided that they will go to look for

les dades per fer els models alternatoris.

the data to create the alternative models.

Us en recordeu? Sí, sí, sí, tant.

Do you remember it? Yes, yes, yes, very much.

Perquè les dades dels hospitals

Because the data from the hospitals

no van bé, perquè després hi havia

they are not going well, because afterwards there was

qui recollia cada dia,

who collected every day,

i a més a més Catalunya

and furthermore Catalonia

es recollia d'una manera i l'estat espanyol

it was picked up in one way and the Spanish state

d'una altra. I quan vam anar al

from another. And when we went to the

tenatori això va ser un bluff que va durar

tenants this was a bluff that lasted

una setmaneta perquè ens vam trobar

a little week since we met

que els criteris dels certificats

that the criteria of the certificates

de defunció diuen que la causa

of death they say the cause

de defunció és la causa primària

the cause of death is the primary cause

de la mort. Per tant,

of death. Therefore,

persona amb càncer que ingressa per Covid

person with cancer admitted for Covid

i mor al certificat

and dies on the certificate

de defunció no posa Covid.

The death certificate does not mention Covid.

El que ens falta en aquest moment

What we lack at this moment

és tota la cultura de la dada,

it is the whole data culture,

o sigui, nosaltres tècniques

that is to say, we techniques

per analitzar dades que estan bé.

to analyze data that is good.

Ens diuen com funciona el món,

They tell us how the world works,

aquestes en tenim cada dia, de fet,

we have these every day, in fact,

surten dos o tres mètodes nous que ho fan.

Two or three new methods come out that do it.

El que ens falta és la cultura

What we lack is culture.

de la dada que acompanya tot el procés,

of the data that accompanies the entire process,

o sigui, com tu

that is, like you

ets conscient que les decisions

are you aware that the decisions

que prens impactaran en que faltin

what you take will impact on what is missing

dades o no faltin dades que després

data or no missing data that later

necessitaràs per fer les prediccions,

you will need to make the predictions,

com les dades que s'han

with the data that have been

de recollir han de seguir certs protocols

to collect, they must follow certain protocols

i no es poden recollir...

and they cannot be collected...

Clar, és el que anava a dir dels protocols. Hi havia una mena de protocol,

Sure, it's what I was going to say about the protocols. There was a kind of protocol,

perquè m'estic imaginant tota la gent com tu, apassionada

because I am imagining all the people like you, passionate

de les dades, és a dir, d'això n'ha de sortir

from the data, that is to say, this must come out of it.

alguna cosa positiva, anem a fer

something positive, let's do it

tot aquest treball, vull fer el treball, però

all this work, I want to do the work, but

com comencem i com ens coordinem, no?

how do we start and how do we coordinate, right?

Hi ha hagut moltes dificultats.

There have been many difficulties.

Jo tinc companys al meu departament que tot de cop

I have colleagues in my department who suddenly

van decidir que no utilitzarien més

they decided that they would no longer use

les dades, sinó que de les dades

the data, but rather from the data

en traurien unes tendències generals

they would draw some general trends

que s'anirien a models de simulació,

that would go to simulation models,

perquè la dada real,

because the real data,

sobretot el primer any,

especially the first year,

tenia moltes mancances, no? Jo no dic

I had many shortcomings, didn't I? I'm not saying.

que en altres països ho hagin fet millor, eh?,

that other countries have done it better, huh?

perquè realment jo crec que això ens ha agafat

because I really believe that this has caught us

molt desprevinguts a tots, a tots.

very unsuspecting to all, to all.

I ens ha mirat alguna cosa, això?

Has it looked at something, this?

El que ha posat això de manifest és que

What has made this evident is that

si tu no tens,

if you don’t have,

com t'ho diré jo, experts en dades,

how I will tell you, data experts,

ja no experts en models, sinó experts en dades,

not experts in models, but experts in data,

que t'ajuden a organitzar

that help you organize

tots aquests protocols i totes aquestes coses,

all these protocols and all these things,

la línia que separa

the line that separates

que els models siguin eficients,

that the models are efficient,

eficaços i precisos i correctes

effective and precise and correct

a que no ho siguin és molt fina.

To not be so is very fine.

És finíssima.

It is very fine.

És complex el problema, no és senzill.

The problem is complex, it is not simple.

Tu creus que hi ha alguna dada per això que s'ha afiançat

Do you think there is any data to support that it has become more established?

com la dada important de la pandèmia?

like the important data of the pandemic?

És a dir, el que s'havia de mirar era això?

That is to say, was this what needed to be looked at?

O segons quina persona analitzi

Or depending on which person analyzes.

dades, diu una o l'altra?

data, does it say one or the other?

Jo diria que s'està treballant bàsicament

I would say that work is basically being done.

en tres direccions, que són

in three directions, which are

el nombre d'infectats,

the number of infected,

el factor de transmissió, no?,

the transmission factor, right?

i la letalitat, que ara ja ha deixat de ser

and the lethality, which has now ceased to be

un problema, però

a problem, however

això impacta també en l'ocupació

this also impacts employment

de les UCIs. Jo crec que són els tres factors

from the ICUs. I believe that these are the three factors.

una mica que governen

a little that they govern

si ens hem de preocupar més o menys.

if we have to worry more or less.

Però clar, tenim això, o sigui,

But of course, we have this, I mean,

ara com vàrem començar una altra vegada,

now that we started again,

ara fa un parell de mesos que vàrem començar

we started about a couple of months ago

amb la Covid, per entrar en els llocs,

with Covid, to enter places,

no sé què, allà també s'han anat

I don't know what, they've also left there.

prenent decisions que ara

making decisions that now

ens fem la prova per anar a l'avió,

we take the test to go to the plane,

ara no ens la fem, ara ens la fem per anar aquí,

now we’re not doing it, now we’re doing it to go here,

ara no ens la fem. Cada vegada que deixes

now we don't do it. Every time you leave

de fer proves, les estadístiques trontollen,

by doing tests, the statistics wobble,

llavors tots els models

then all the models

s'han de recalibrar, perquè si tot de cop

they need to be recalibrated, because if all of a sudden

hi ha un tros de gent que abans comptaves

there's a group of people you used to count on

i ara no comptes, tot el model

And now you don't count, all the model.

trontolla, llavors és

wobbles, then it is

complicat, perquè a més a més

complicated, because furthermore

es barregen

they mix

el que nosaltres en diem, això és un problema

what we call that is a problem

multicritèric, es barregen objectius

multicriteria, objectives are mixed

que són contradictoris

that they are contradictory

entre ells, per tant, que tu per arreglar

between them, therefore, than you to fix

que no propaguin la pandèmia, hauries

that they do not spread the pandemic, you should

potser de tancar tothom a casa, però per arreglar

maybe to close everyone at home, but to fix

que la gent no es foti de gana, potser no els pots

Let people not go hungry, maybe you can't.

tancar, llavors... Ja entra la política

close, then... Here comes politics

a les decisions ja més enllà, no?

to the decisions beyond, right?

Hi ha un tema, una mica

There is a topic, a little bit.

diríem, en tota la pandèmia el tema

we would say, throughout the pandemic the issue

tecnològic, hi ha un tema que jo he intentat

technological, there is a topic that I have tried

seguir, he fracassat totalment,

to continue, I have totally failed,

però tu que ets de dades, potser

but you, who are into data, maybe

ens pots donar la llum, que és

can you give us the light, which is

el tema de RadarCovid. Què ha passat

the topic of RadarCovid. What has happened

amb aquesta aplicació? Què no s'han entès

with this application? What hasn't been understood?

a l'hora de donar les dades als catalans

when giving the data to the Catalans

amb el govern espanyol? Aquesta

with the Spanish government? This

aplicació no s'ha fet servir per res, i

the application has not been used for anything, and

hi ha gent que diu que potser hauria servit d'alguna cosa.

There are people who say that it might have been of some use.

Tens una opinió formada? Mira,

Do you have a formed opinion? Look,

és que tot això és complicat,

it's just that all of this is complicated,

perquè aquí et trobes amb problemes

because here you encounter problems

d'interoperabilitat de les dades de

data interoperability of

diferents administracions.

different administrations.

Després et trobes amb problemes

Then you find yourself with problems.

de criteris, no?, de criteris de com es

of criteria, right?, of criteria of how it is

recullen en un lloc i com es recullen en l'altre.

they are collected in one place and how they are collected in the other.

Després et trobes amb problemes

Then you find yourself with problems.

de RGPD, de la famosa

of GDPR, of the famous

regulació de protecció de dades, val?

data protection regulation, okay?

I tot plegat al final

And all in all in the end

és un cacauet tan gran que...

it's such a big peanut that...

No ho sé, però jo me'n recordo, per exemple, al

I don’t know, but I remember, for example, at the

principi quan es parlava d'aquelles aplicacions

Initially, when those applications were discussed.

que traçaven els contactes, no? Sí.

that traced the contacts, right? Yes.

Te'n recordes? Que allà també hi havia

Do you remember? That there was also there.

un debat importantíssim sobre

a very important debate about

si, bueno, si eren segures o no eren segures,

yes, well, whether they were safe or not safe,

si violaven la intimitat

if they violated privacy

de la persona, si eren trackers

of the person, if they were trackers

que ens anaven perseguint o no,

whether they were chasing us or not,

tal, si funcionaven, si es donaven compte

such, if they worked, if they realized

que tenies un senyor de dos centímetres prop

that you had a gentleman of two centimeters nearby

al mig i hi havia una paret i que la Covid no podia passar...

in the middle there was a wall and that Covid could not pass...

Vull dir que, clar, al final hi ha uns

I mean that, of course, in the end there are some.

arrenys, no?, que aquests models

"let's see, right?, that these models"

en gros ja estan bé i ja

basically they are fine and that's it

funcionen, però clar, quan els has de fer servir

they work, but of course, when you have to use them

per decidir si tanques la gent a casa o no,

to decide whether to lock people in at home or not,

has d'estar molt segur que funcionen. Però al principi

you have to be very sure that they work. But at the beginning

estàvem molt pendents, perquè això també,

we were very attentive, because this too,

que tu te'n deus riure una mica, no?, de

you must be laughing a little, right?, about

ai, les meves dades, no?

Oh, my data, right?

La gran contradicció, des del meu punt de vista,

The great contradiction, from my point of view,

es baixa en una aplicació,

it is downloaded in an application,

no sé, per fer receptes

I don't know, to make recipes.

de cuina des del mòbil... O per

cooking from the mobile... Or for

editar un vídeo, sí. Les autoritzen totes,

edit a video, yes. They authorize all of them,

no tenen cap mena de problema

they have no kind of problem

per autoritzar tot, i allà es troba

to authorize everything, and there it is

doncs que aquella aplicació

so that application

està accedint a tots els

is accessing all the

contactes, està copiant tot el que fas,

contacts, is copying everything you do,

està traient moltíssima més

is taking out a lot more

informació que la que hagués pogut treure

information that I could have obtained

un seguidor de contactes de Covid, no?

A Covid contact tracer, right?

Aquí també hi ha un

Here there is also a

tema una mica de desconeixement,

a topic of a bit of ignorance,

jo penso, i que

I think, and what.

crea una certa confusió, i que al final

creates a certain confusion, and that in the end

l'usuari final de vegades

the end user sometimes

és una mica inconsistent amb si mateix,

he is a bit inconsistent with himself,

no?, perquè amb coses relacionades

no?, because of related things

amb salut o amb l'administració pública

with health or with the public administration

de seguida s'espanta molt,

she gets frightened very quickly,

però en canvi després cedeix

but instead, later it yields

tota la seva intimitat sense

all her intimacy without

cap mena de pudor

no smell at all

amb aplicacions que no saps ni on les han fet.

with applications that you don't even know where they were made.

Jo me'n recordo, tu te'n recordaràs, de

I remember, you will remember, of

el cas del FaceApp, que era

the case of FaceApp, which was

aquella aplicació que tu te la baixaves

that application that you downloaded

i era un joc, no?, ah, jo agafo, me poso

And it was a game, right? Ah, I'll take it, I'll put it on.

una foto aquí i em fa

a photo here and it makes me

una... me posa 20 anys

one... makes me look 20 years older

més a sobre, i resulta que mentre tu

moreover, it turns out that while you

passaves la mar de vent, no sé, i va, vine mama

You were passing by in the wind, I don’t know, and come on, come mom.

a veure com seràs d'aquí 20 anys, no sé què, no

Let's see how you will be in 20 years, I don't know what, right?

t'ho aguantes, allò anava copiant

You hold on, that was copying.

tota la informació sobre tu

all the information about you

i no quedava gens clar què es feia

and it wasn't clear at all what was being done

després amb aquell material, si es feien

after with that material, if they were made

perfils psicològics, si s'utilitzaven

psychological profiles, if they were used

després per vendre headhunters, vull dir

then to sell headhunters, I mean

que saps? Alimentant la màquina de, no?,

What do you know? Feeding the machine, right?

per fer reconeixement facial, no?,

to do facial recognition, right?

en base amb totes aquestes imatges.

based on all these images.

En temes de salut s'ha de ser

In matters of health, one must be.

solidari amb les dades, no?, perquè

solidary with the data, right?, because

anonimitzades, però sí que poden

anonymized, but they can indeed

servir, com tu deies, pels patrons i per

to serve, as you said, for the bosses and for

moltes coses, no? Home, de fet,

many things, right? Well, actually,

si avui sabem curar moltíssimes

if today we can heal a lot

de les malalties que curem és perquè

of the diseases we cure is because

hem pogut analitzar dades de molts

we have been able to analyze data from many

pacients que han tingut aquestes malalties

patients who have had these diseases

abans, i hem pogut veure

before, and we have been able to see

que hi havia de diferent entre els que

what was different between those who

es curaven i els que no es curaven, no?

They were cured, and those who were not cured, right?

Llavors, si no podem

Then, if we can't

aprofitar aquesta informació

make use of this information

per extreure el coneixement que

to extract the knowledge that

ajuda després a resoldre els

helps later to solve the

problemes, doncs la ciència no avançaria.

problems, then science would not advance.

No avançaria la medicina,

I would not advance medicine,

perquè ja fa... O sigui, el que

because it's been... I mean, what

pot avançar la ciència fent

can advance science by doing

càlcul analític amb bé llapis al despatx,

analytical calculation with a good pencil in the office,

jo crec que aquesta

I think that this

part ja ha donat pràcticament tot el que

part has practically given all that

pot donar de sí. Per tant, si hem de

can give way. Therefore, if we have to

continuar aprenent a curar malalties

continue learning to cure diseases

i aprenent a tenir una atmosfera

and learning to have an atmosphere

sana en els llocs on vivim

healthy in the places where we live

i aquest tipus de coses,

and this kind of thing,

esclar que necessitem

of course we need

necessitem poder entrenar

we need to be able to train

els models amb aquestes dades, no?

The models with this data, right?

Dit això, sí que és veritat,

That said, it is true,

o sigui, utilitzar les dades

that is, use the data

de les persones no és una activitat

of people is not an activity

impune, o sigui, n'ha de tenir una mica

impune, that is, it must have a little bit of it.

de seny, s'ha d'enquadrar

of common sense, it must be framed

una mica quan sí, quan no,

a little when yes, when no,

no? Vull dir, potser, jo potser et diré,

no? I mean, maybe, I might tell you,

perquè aquest és un altre

because this is another

discurs, o sigui, la tecnologia que

speech, that is, the technology that

s'utilitza per

it is used for

aprendre quins són els patrons de cura

learn what the care patterns are

d'una determinada malaltia o

of a certain disease or

quin és l'itinerari de la malaltia

what is the course of the disease

que porta que la persona es curi,

that leads the person to heal,

és la mateixa, exactament la mateixa

it's the same, exactly the same

tecnologia que es fa servir

technology that is used

per estudiar el comportament de

to study the behavior of

consum d'un senyor i després

consumption of a gentleman and afterwards

fer-li propostes perquè

make proposals for him/her to

compri coses que no vol que necessita, no?

He buys things he doesn't want but needs, doesn't he?

Al final, la tecnologia,

In the end, technology,

bé, si li dones dades de

well, if you give him data about

consum, aprendrà que

consumption, will learn that

t'han de vendre perquè compris, i si li dones

"They have to sell you so you buy, and if you give it to him."

dades de malalties, aprendrà que

disease data, will learn that

t'han de donar perquè et curis, no?

They have to give it to you so that you can heal, right?

I, clar, són dos usos molt diferents.

Of course, they are two very different uses.

S'ha de conèixer tota la tecnologia per

One must know all the technology to

poder triar, també, no? Perquè, si no, el problema és

to be able to choose as well, right? Because if not, the problem is

no saber-ne, no? Una altra

not knowing, right? Another one

cosa que també tu

thing that also you

en parles molt, en xerrades,

you talk about it a lot, in conversations,

en el podcast he anat preguntant quina és la tecnologia

In the podcast, I have been asking what technology is.

del 2022, no?

from 2022, right?

L'altre dia la nena Barroche-Leje em deia

The other day the Barroche-Leje girl was telling me

ui, criptos, no?

Oh, cryptocurrencies, right?

No sé, metavers, però el tema és blockchain,

I don't know, metaverse, but the topic is blockchain.

totes aquestes paraules, no?

all these words, right?

Però tu tens una paraula que jo

But you have a word that I

crec que és aplicable a tot això, que és la

I believe it is applicable to all of this, which is the

ètica, no? S'ha parlat molt

Ethics, right? There has been a lot of talk about it.

de regulació, tu que fa tants anys que t'hi dediques,

of regulation, you who have been dedicated to it for so many years,

segurament ets dels orígens

you are probably from the origins

d'internet, has viscut la internet hippie,

of the internet, you have experienced the hippie internet,

i ara ja estem a la regulació i

and now we are already at the regulation and

l'ètica, no? És molt, molt, molt important,

Ethics, right? It's very, very, very important.

no, això? Sí, és molt important,

No, this? Yes, it is very important.

perquè era una

because it was a

mica el dilema que et plantejava abans

a little the dilemma I presented to you earlier

jo, no? O sigui, la mateixa

Me, right? I mean, the same.

tecnologia

technology

li pots donar usos que realment acabin

you can give it uses that really end

impactant en manipulacions

impactful in manipulations

de les persones. De fet, ara ja

of people. In fact, now already

el novembre va sortir un projecte

In November, a project was released.

de llei europea de la intel·ligència

of the European intelligence law

artificial a la Comissió Europea

artificial to the European Commission

que justament una de les coses

that precisely one of the things

que diu és que es vol prohibir

what it says is that it wants to be prohibited

qualsevol ús de les dades

any use of the data

que pugui estar orientat

that may be oriented

a manipulacions de les persones, no? Tenim

the manipulation of people, right? We have

el malaurat cas del

the unfortunate case of the

Trump, no?, que fent un ús

Trump, right?, that making use

una mica abusiu, si tu vols,

a little abusive, if you want,

dels perfils públics de Facebook,

from public Facebook profiles,

perquè realment aquesta gent no van fer res

because these people really did nothing

il·legal, eh? O sigui, van

Illegal, huh? So, they went.

agafar dades que són públiques, no? Sí, sí, sí,

to take data that is public, right? Yes, yes, yes,

que tots diem acceptem i les acceptem allà. Ara

that we all say we accept and we accept them there. Now

estan manipulant els votants

they are manipulating the voters

fins al fet de... Hi ha persones

until the fact that... There are people

que potser no haurien votat mai a Trump,

that perhaps they would never have voted for Trump,

el van votar i al final, doncs, bueno,

they voted for him and in the end, well,

van tenir aquell president

they had that president

muntat sobre uns vots que

mounted on some votes that

està per veure si eren

it remains to be seen if they were

tan

so

genuïns com aparentaven, no?

genuine as they seemed, right?

Diguem-ho així. Però

Let’s put it this way. But

efectivament, o sigui, hi ha aquest punt

effectively, I mean, there is this point

de precaució.

of caution.

De fet, Catalunya és molt pionera en això.

In fact, Catalonia is very pioneering in this.

El 2017, o sigui, les primeres

In 2017, that is, the first

regulacions ètiques de la intel·ligència

ethical regulations of intelligence

artificial surten

artificial they come out

a Europa

to Europe

el 2018, d'acord?

2018, okay?

I un any abans

And a year before.

nosaltres aquí, des d'aquí, Catalunya

we here, from here, Catalonia

es va impulsar el que se'n diu la

it was promoted what is called the

Declaració de Barcelona de la Intel·ligència Artificial.

Barcelona Declaration on Artificial Intelligence.

I allà ja

And there already

aixecàvem l'orella de dir, bueno,

we raised an eyebrow and said, well,

vigileu que aquí tothom està començant a

be careful because everyone here is starting to

fer aplicacions comercials de

make commercial applications of

la intel·ligència artificial i a

artificial intelligence and to

fer coses i, bueno, o sigui,

do things and, well, I mean,

per tu realment posar un model en producció

to really put a model into production for you

has d'estar molt segur que l'has entrenat bé,

you must be very sure that you have trained it well,

que és robust, que no està esbiaixat,

that is robust, that is not biased,

que té en compte totes

that takes into account all

les casuístiques, que és estable,

the case studies, which is stable,

que no sé quantíssimes coses més, no?

that I don't know how many more things, right?

I per rescomptat que està utilitzant dades

And of course he is using data.

lícites, no? Llavors aquest

legal, right? Then this

és un tema que ens preocupa molt

It is a topic that concerns us a lot.

a tots perquè la

to everyone because the

IA és una tecnologia

AI is a technology.

que és molt potèmica, realment

which is very controversial, really

ens pot ajudar a viure molt millor,

it can help us live much better,

no? Si no la cotes bé,

No? If you don't take it well,

per dir-ho d'alguna manera,

to put it in some way,

comportar uns riscos que...

involve some risks that...

Clar, Carina, però és que la gent

Of course, Carina, but it's just that people

que legisla n'ha de saber molt, i jo recordo que

those who legislate must know a lot, and I remember that

amb això m'ho explicava precisament Ramon López

with that Ramon López was explaining it to me precisely.

de Mantares, no?, que m'explicava tot això,

from Mantares, right?, who was explaining all this to me,

clar, dic, la gent que domineu més

of course, I mean, the people you dominate more

són la gent que ha de dir que s'han de

they are the people who have to say that they have to

posar topalls, no? De vegades sembla com un

put amends, right? Sometimes it seems like a

contrasentit perquè sembla que hauríeu de dir

nonsense because it seems that you should say

sí, intel·ligència artificial, apassionats, haurem de

yes, artificial intelligence, passionate, we will have to

fer tot, i sou els que esteu més preocupats

do everything, and you are the ones who are most worried

de la societat. Estem molt preocupats

of society. We are very worried.

perquè coneixem la potencialitat

because we know the potential

de la tecnologia i

of technology and

coneixem el desastre

we know the disaster

que pot causar si no s'utilitza amb prudència,

that can cause if not used with caution,

no? Això és la bomba atòmica, o sigui,

No? This is the atomic bomb, you know,

tu, descobreixes la bomba atòmica,

you discover the atomic bomb,

la fots a Hiroshima i has fet un

you mess it up in Hiroshima and you have made a

cataclisme mundial.

worldwide cataclysm.

O sigui, la fas servir per

So, you use it to

tota aquesta energia per, no sé, per fer

all this energy to, I don't know, to do

teràpies i generar

therapies and generate

energia barata i no sé quantos, i està bé.

cheap energy and I don't know what else, and it's fine.

Sí, hi ha aquest risc, o sigui, llavors

Yes, there is this risk, that is, then.

nosaltres, que som els científics

we, who are the scientists

en general, sempre tenim

in general, we always have

una mica el bé comú

a little bit of the common good

en l'escenari, com si diguéssim,

on stage, so to speak,

nosaltres el que ens agradaria és que

what we would like is that

no haguéssim de renunciar al potencial

we should not have to give up on potential

d'aquesta tecnologia perquè

of this technology because

entrem en una

let's go into one

voràgine que s'utilitza

vortex that is used

de forma perniciosa, sinó que fóssim

perniciously, but rather that we were

capaços de mantenir-nos

capable of keeping us

dintre d'un ús ètic

within an ethical use

d'aquesta tecnologia que ens permeti aprofitar-la

of this technology that allows us to take advantage of it

sense que això causi danys,

without causing harm,

no? Pensa que

No? Think that.

una cosa tan tonta com

something so silly as

treure tots aquests patrons de les dades,

remove all these patterns from the data,

només que et surti un patró

only if you get a pattern

que sigui molt minoritari,

that it is very minority,

que tu el publiquis i que resulti que

that you publish it and that it turns out that

aquelles característiques en el teu poble

those characteristics in your village

només compleix una o dues persones,

only one or two people comply,

has revelat el secret estadístic

you have revealed the statistical secret

i això els hi pot costar

and this may cost them

una feina, els hi pot costar un matrimoni,

a job can cost them a marriage,

no? Això

No? This.

és un risc. Un altre risc és

it is a risk. Another risk is

l'altre dia nosaltres ens trobàvem

the other day we were meeting

amb una app, que per sort des de l'MIT

with an app, which fortunately from MIT

l'han fet tancar, una app

they have made her shut down an app

que et demana una foto per fer un vídeo porno,

who asks you for a photo to make a porn video,

no? Llavors amb la teva foto

No? Then with your photo.

fa un fake que és porno.

It's a fake that's porn.

Que bueno, això pot ser contestable,

How good, this can be debatable,

però el que és més greu

but what is more serious

és que tu pots fer el vídeo

It’s that you can make the video.

amb la foto de la nena de 15 anys de la veïna

with the photo of the 15-year-old girl of the neighbor

de baix. Clar, pots posar qualsevol

from below. Of course, you can put anything.

foto que no cal que sigui la teva.

photo that doesn't have to be yours.

Al cap de dos dies el tiet de la nena

Two days later, the girl's uncle

pel que sigui que consumeix pornos fot

for whatever it is that consumes porn, f**k

a la base de dades i es troba la seva nena d'allà

in the database and finds her girl from there

que aquella no en té ni idea. Clar, clar.

that she has no idea about it. Of course, of course.

Mira, abans parlàvem de dones i una de les coses

Look, we were talking about women and one of the things

i bé, el món ja està fet

And well, the world is already made.

d'algoritmes perquè sempre diem

of algorithms because we always say

que acabarem amb les màquines, però és que les màquines

that we will end up with the machines, but it’s just that the machines

ja estan entre nosaltres, vull dir,

they are already among us, I mean,

tenim algoritmes i una de les coses

we have algorithms and one of the things

interessants i que hem dit moltes vegades

interesting and that we have said many times

i que m'agradaria acabar una mica l'entrevista amb això

And I would like to finish the interview with this.

és que sempre dieu vosaltres que els equips han de ser

it's just that you always say that teams have to be

multidisciplinars, de gèneres,

multidisciplinary, of genres,

d'edats, de

of ages, of

colors, han de ser diversos

colors must be diverse

i que hi hagi molt també d'humanisme, no?

And that there be a lot of humanism as well, right?

No només tecnòlegs sinó humanistes,

Not only technologists but humanists,

no? I jo penso que, no?

no? And I think that, no?

Això és el que expliqueu, no? Perquè els algoritmes

This is what you are explaining, isn't it? Because the algorithms.

siguin justos i tinguin aquesta ètica,

be fair and have this ethics,

no? És que si tu perds

No? It's just that if you lose

de vista la perspectiva

from the perspective

d'on ha d'anar a viure

where one must go to live

un algoritme,

an algorithm,

el dany pot ser terrible.

the damage can be terrible.

Et posaré una

I will put one on you.

metàfora sobre les cases,

metaphor about houses,

o sigui, això seria la diferència

so, that would be the difference

entre tenir un equip

between having a team

d'arquitectes que no s'han plantejat

of architects who have not considered

mai qui té que viure en aquell edifici,

never should one live in that building,

no? Llavors et trobes aquelles cases que

no? Then you find those houses that

per anar de la cuina al menjador has de donar 15 voltes,

to go from the kitchen to the dining room you have to turn 15 times,

perquè hi ha ascensor pel mig,

because there is an elevator in the middle,

perquè aquells han passat només amb el llum

because those have only passed with the light

i no han pensat en com transiten les

and they haven't thought about how they transit the

persones d'un lloc a l'altre, no? O, per

people from one place to another, right? Or, for

exemple, que no hi ha allí en aquell equip que

example, that there is no one there in that team that

dissenya la casa no hi ha cap cuinera que hagi de

design the house there is no cook that has to

portar els plats d'un cantó a l'altre, no?

to carry the dishes from one corner to the other, right?

Llavors, quan tu dissenyes

Then, when you design

tecnologia necessites tenir

technology you need to have

totes les mirades.

all the looks.

Llavors, quan estàs dissenyant programes

So, when you are designing programs

hi ha coses que per la

there are things that for the

manera d'enfocar o per la manera

way of approaching or by the way

de pensar o per la manera de triar

to think or by the way of choosing

que tenim les dones, si

what we have women, yes

sempre ens enfrontem a programes

we always face programs

que estan dissenyats per senyors,

that are designed for gentlemen,

no ens resulta tan

it doesn't seem so to us

natural, no contempla tan bé les

natural, does not contemplate so well the

casuístiques nostres, per exemple, no?

our case studies, for example, right?

Una cosa tan tonta com decidir

Something as silly as deciding

si reculls o no reculls

if you collect or do not collect

el gènere d'una persona quan li estàs

the gender of a person when you are addressing them

fent una entrevista laboral. Doncs,

conducting a job interview. So,

si no reculls el gènere mai

if you never pick up the gender

a la vida podràs saber quines són

In life, you will be able to know which ones they are.

les diferències de gènere que tens entre uns itineraris

the gender differences you have between some pathways

professionals i uns altres, no?

professionals and others, right?

Si no tens totes les mirades

If you don't have all the looks

quan estàs prenent aquestes decisions

when you are making these decisions

s'escapen. Doncs, escolta, Carina,

they escape. So, listen, Carina,

Givert, m'ha encantat parlar amb tu, o sigui,

Givert, I loved talking to you, so,

hi ha 50.000 capítols i ous a obrir,

there are 50,000 chapters and eggs to open,

melons i mil coses

melons and a thousand things

perquè la veritat és que es nota

because the truth is that it shows

molt la teva passió amb el que fas

a lot your passion with what you do

i això no es prodiga gaire, no?

And that doesn't happen very often, does it?

Escolta, moltíssimes gràcies, Mariola,

Listen, thank you very much, Mariola,

moltes felicitats pel

congratulations on the

programa i moltes

program and many

gràcies per haver-me convidat. Un plaer.

Thank you for inviting me. A pleasure.

Felicitats Digital. Amb Mariola Dinerès.

Congratulations Digital. With Mariola Dinerès.

Felicitats Digital.

Congratulations Digital.

Busquem el benestar digital.

We seek digital well-being.

Expertesa i

Expertise and

consells de seguretat per tenir

safety tips to have

felicitat digital.

digital happiness.

I ara és el moment de rebre el

And now is the time to receive the

Tomàs Roig, que és el director d'estratègia

Tomàs Roig, who is the director of strategy.

de l'Agència de Ciberseguretat de Catalunya.

from the Cybersecurity Agency of Catalonia.

Tomàs Roig, què tal? Hola. Hola, Mariola, molt bé.

Tomàs Roig, how are you? Hello. Hello, Mariola, very well.

Hem après un munt de coses. Jo diria

We have learned a lot of things. I would say

que ja tinc un màster en

that I already have a master's in

seguretat digital i he de dir que sí,

digital security and I have to say yes,

que sóc bastant més feliç que

that I am quite a bit happier than

en el capítol 1, quan vam començar

In chapter 1, when we began.

aquesta, diria, amb relació a aquestes classes

this, I would say, in relation to these classes

una mica col·lectives

a bit collectives

a l'hora de parlar de seguretat digital

when it comes to talking about digital security

i, no sé, podíem fer

I don't know, we could do.

un repàs de quina és la manera

a review of what the way is

que ens hem d'enfrontar davant

that we must face before

de la seguretat digital, perquè fins

of digital security, because until

que no vaig parlar amb tu, Tomàs, he de

that I didn't talk to you, Tomàs, I have to

reconèixer que a mi encara em

recognize that I still have...

captava l'atenció aquests

it caught the attention of these

titulars alarmistes de

alarmist headlines of

arriba una ciberguerra,

a cyberwar is coming,

arriba una estafa global.

a global scam is coming.

Estàvem com una mica alarmats amb la seguretat

We were a bit alarmed about the security.

en això, no? I tu dius, no, no, hem de baixar,

in this, right? And you say, no, no, we have to go down,

però hem de ser conscients

but we must be aware

dels perills que també té les xarxes, no?

of the dangers that the networks also have, right?

Sí, sí, de fet, el...

Yes, yes, in fact, the...

la gran oportunitat d'estar en un programa

the great opportunity to be in a program

que es diu Felicitat Digital

which is called Digital Happiness

era precisament poder parlar de la

it was precisely to be able to talk about the

ciberseguretat, no des de

cybersecurity, not from

la fatalitat,

the fatality,

no?, que en veritat, i és normal,

No? That in truth, and it's normal,

ens bloqueja, quan parlem de

it blocks us when we talk about

coses que poden tenir un impacte

things that can have an impact

tan gran, ens sentim

so great, we feel

incapaços de donar-hi resposta,

incapable of responding to it,

no?, i en canvi, en aquest programa

no?, and yet, in this program

el que hem mirat és com ens podem activar,

what we have looked at is how we can activate ourselves,

com podem nosaltres mateixos,

how we can ourselves,

doncs, assumir el control,

well, take control,

diríem, d'allò que ens

we would say, of that which we

pugui permetre resoldre

can allow to resolve

els riscos nostres, individuals,

our individual risks,

no? Segurament

no? Probably

hi ha uns riscos planetaris

there are some planetary risks

o fatalistes, degut a la...

or fatalists, due to the...

a tot el tema de ciberseguretat,

to all the issue of cybersecurity,

però també hem d'aprendre

but we also have to learn

a moure'ns en aquest món en el qual,

to move in this world in which,

doncs, la nostra conducta

well, our behavior

hi té a veure amb la nostra felicitat.

it has to do with our happiness.

Sempre diem, no?, el paral·lelisme aquest

We always say, right?, this parallelism.

de la delinqüència sempre

of crime always

existirà en el món, no?, i en aquest cas

it will exist in the world, right?, and in this case

la ciberdelinqüència, com més

cybercrime, the more

estem en digital,

we are in digital,

doncs és veritat que migren cap al digital, no?

So it's true that they are migrating to digital, right?

És així, tanmateix

It is so, however.

també hem de ser una miqueta,

we also have to be a little bit,

igual que hem de vigilar de no

just as we need to be careful not to

fer aquest discurs alarmista

to make this alarmist speech

per part dels tècnics, no?, de ciberseguretat,

from the technicians, right?, of cybersecurity,

també hem de reconèixer

we also have to recognize

que la gent no percep la

that people do not perceive it

ciberseguretat d'una manera

cybersecurity in a way

com hauria, no?, en certa manera tenen

how would it be, right?, in a way they have

inclús a vegades un excés

even sometimes an excess

de confiança, és a dir,

trustworthy, that is to say,

es senten que, com qui condueix

they feel that, like someone driving

un cotxe, no?, jo controlo molt

A car, right? I control a lot.

del mòbil, em porto molt bé a les xarxes

on my phone, I do very well on social media

socials, jo aquest tema el tinc,

socials, I have this topic covered,

soc molt bo, no?, i

I am very good, aren't I? And

m'hi voc molt bé, per tant, tenen

I do it very well, so they have.

una falsa sensació de seguretat

a false sense of security

perquè entenen el medi,

because they understand the environment,

però en canvi no

but on the contrary, no

entenen les amenaces que tenen, no?

They understand the threats they have, don't they?

I moltes de les coses que

And many of the things that

hem estat veient durant aquests programes

we have been seeing during these programs

es basaven en errors

they were based on errors

molt bàsics, o sigui,

very basic, that is,

les mesures que havien d'aprendre eren

the measures they had to learn were

actualitzar el nostre programatge,

update our software,

no fer cas

not to pay attention

als certs correus o missatges

to certain emails or messages

que rebíem, saber reconèixer

that we received, knowing how to recognize

atacs de phishing, no?, que

phishing attacks, right?, that

no calen estudis d'enginyeria

engineering studies are not necessary

per poder estar a l'aguant, no?, i

to be able to be on standby, right?, and

en canvi podríem dir que

on the other hand, we could say that

inclús amb gent molt techie,

even with very techie people,

molt avançada, el seu

very advanced, its

nivell bàsic de ciberseguretat

basic level of cybersecurity

és molt baix, o sigui,

he is very short, I mean,

hi ha una gran desprotecció

there is a great lack of protection

generalitzada, no? Per tant,

generalized, right? Therefore,

crec que en aquest programa

I think that in this program

el que a mi m'agradaria és

what I would like is

dir, vale, potser no evitarem

say, okay, maybe we won't avoid it

l'atac global, l'armageddon

the global attack, the armageddon

cibernètic, però

cybernetic, but

cada pas que fem per entendre

every step we take to understand

millor la tecnologia

better technology

en les coses que podem fer nosaltres

in the things we can do ourselves

es revertirà en que estarem

it will be reversed in what we will be

més segurs, que estarem més feliços,

safer, that we will be happier,

que podrem disfrutar més

that we will be able to enjoy more

d'aquest entorn que tenim

of this environment that we have

al nostre abast, no? Per tant, aquesta

within our reach, right? Therefore, this

falsa seguretat que a vegades

false security that sometimes

tenim, ni hem de tenir por

we have, nor should we be afraid

ni ens hem de tenir tan segurs, sinó que hem de continuar

we should not be so sure of ourselves, but we must continue

a apropar-nos a la tecnologia

to bring us closer to technology

com fas tu, amb molta

as you do, with a lot

curiositat i anar aprofundint

curiosity and going deeper

per ser actius en la nostra

to be active in our

protecció. Jo he de reconèixer que

protection. I have to acknowledge that

molta gent, quan veu el títol de

many people, when they see the title of

Felicitat Digital,

Digital Happiness,

es tira enrere i diu, ai, escolta,

she pulls back and says, oh, listen,

que ets Mister Wonderful, no? Tot és feliç...

you are Mister Wonderful, right? Everything is happy...

Dic, no, Felicitat Digital

I say, no, Digital Happiness.

és tenir coneixement per empoderar-se

It is to have knowledge to empower oneself.

i després decidir, no? Que és una mica

And then decide, right? It's a bit...

el coneixement. Tot això que ens

the knowledge. All this that we

has explicat ens dona, com diríem,

you have explained to us, how would we say,

poder com a ciutadà i també

power as a citizen and also

ens fa poder ser més feliços perquè

it lets us be happier because

així no ens estafen, per exemple, no?

so they don't con us, for example, right?

Vull dir que... Tot i això, et dic,

I mean that... Nevertheless, I tell you,

eh, molt sovint diem

eh, very often we say

saps per què aquest no es protegeix?

Do you know why this one isn't protected?

Perquè no li ha passat res.

Because nothing has happened to him/her.

Clar. Però què passa? Que et puc dir

Sure. But what happens? What can I tell you?

que les xifres ens ensenyen que el que

that the figures teach us that what

li passa, li torna a passar

it happens to him, it happens to him again

i li torna a passar. Vull dir, a vegades

And it happens to him again. I mean, sometimes.

en el moment que ens passa alguna cosa

at the moment something happens to us

o sabem d'algú que li ha passat,

or we know of someone that it has happened to,

ens omplenem de voluntat. És a dir,

we fill ourselves with will. That is,

això no m'ha de tornar a passar,

this must not happen to me again,

és que soc tonto, és que com he pogut

It's just that I'm silly, it's just that how could I have...

picar, no? Però al final

To sting, right? But in the end

no canviem cap hàbit. No millorem

We don't change any habits. We don't improve.

amb res, no aprofundim

with nothing, we don't delve deeper

amb el que ha passat i la causa.

with what has happened and the cause.

És que hi ha molta enginyeria social, allò que dius a vegades, no?

It's just that there is a lot of social engineering, what you sometimes say, right?

O sigui, que saben com som els humans,

So, they know what humans are like,

no? Quan es fa una estafa

No? When is a scam committed?

i caiem de quatre potes moltes

And we fall on all fours many times.

vegades. Doncs és això, que al final

sometimes. Well, that's it, in the end

hem de mirar, de conèixer

we have to look, to know

aquestes debilitats que tenim,

these weaknesses that we have,

visualitzar-les quan li passa a algú del nostre entorn

visualize them when it happens to someone in our environment

i a nosaltres, però adoptar mesures.

And us, however, to adopt measures.

Mesures possibles, senzilles,

Possible, simple measures,

que ens permetin anar

that they let us go

estant en aquest entorn que volem estar,

being in this environment that we want to be in,

que és feliç,

who is happy,

no?, que és el de l'entorn

no?, what is it about the environment?

aquest digital, i per tant aprofitar

this digital, and therefore take advantage

de tot el que ens pot aportar bo,

of everything that can bring us good,

que és moltíssim, si nosaltres

that is a lot, if we

simplement hi anem volent

we simply go wanting to

controlar-lo cada vegada més. De totes

to control it more and more. Of all

maneres, també amb un bany realista

ways, also with a realistic bath

que tinc ara, en aquest

that I have now, in this

2022, evidentment, a nivell

2022, obviously, at a level

diríem global, a nivell empresarial,

we would say global, at the business level,

és evident

it is evident

que estan a venti

that are at twenty

i hi haurà molts més atacs i que és

and there will be many more attacks and that is

diríem la era de la

we would say the era of the

ciberdelinqüència i que els

cybercrime and that the

tècnics com vosaltres heu d'estar

technicians like you must be

molt a punt, perquè és veritat, no?, que hi ha

Very close, because it's true, isn't it, that there is

molts objectius i molts

many objectives and many

atacs, no?, això també ho hem de dir.

attacks, right? We also have to mention this.

És així, però per una banda

It is so, but on one hand

hem d'entendre que pot

we must understand that it can

ser difícil defensar-te de la

it's hard to defend yourself from the

intel·ligència del dolent, no?,

intelligence of the villain, right?

de dir, oh, com podré defensar-me d'un

to say, oh, how will I be able to defend myself from one

tio que està tot el dia pensant en com fer-me mal,

dude who's thinking all day about how to hurt me,

no?, que és cansant, no?, però hem d'estar

no?, it's tiring, isn't it?, but we have to be

hem d'estar a la guai, no?, ho hem

we have to be cool, right? we do

de fer, però per una altra banda hem d'estar

to do, but on the other hand we must be

també atents a la nostra,

also attentive to ours,

no dir estupidesa, però diríem

not to say nonsense, but we would say

amb les nostres dificultats,

with our difficulties,

no?, les hem de millorar, és a dir,

no?, we have to improve them, that is,

a vegades som el nostre pitjor enemic,

sometimes we are our own worst enemy,

no?, aleshores hem de combinar les dues coses,

no? then we have to combine both things,

per una banda tenim gent que està tot el

On one hand, we have people who are all the

dia pensant en com

day thinking about how

treure profit de nosaltres i

take advantage of us and

per l'altra estem nosaltres que no ens estem

For the other, here we are, and we are not staying.

cuidant de ser

taking care to be

més hàbils i d'estar més

more skilled and to be more

còmodes en aquest mitjà en el

comfortable in this medium in the

que hem arribat, que hi volem estar

that we have arrived, that we want to be there

i ens hi volem quedar. Doncs escolta,

and we want to stay there. So listen,

Tomàs Roy, moltes gràcies per tots aquests

Tomàs Roy, thank you very much for all these.

capítols, necessitaré potser

chapters, I might need

més endavant un curs superior,

later a higher course,

però de moment he de pair

but for now I have to digest

tot això que hem après en aquests 15

all that we have learned in these 15

capítols del Felicitat Digital,

chapters of Digital Happiness,

Seguretat, i ja és un contingut

Security, and it's already content.

diríem que ens quedarà per sempre com

we would say that it will stay with us forever as

unes classes de Seguretat Digital que

digital security classes that

quedaran sempre a internet. Gràcies Tomàs Roy.

They will always remain on the internet. Thank you Tomàs Roy.

Que sigueu molt feliços.

May you be very happy.

Això s'acaba.

This is coming to an end.

Ens deia la Carina Givert, fa 35

Carina Givert was telling us, 35 years ago.

anys hi havia més del 30%

There were more than 30% years ago.

de dones a la facultat d'informàtica

of women in the computer science faculty

i ara som un 7%.

And now we are a 7%.

Què ha passat? Hem de revertir

What has happened? We need to reverse it.

aquests percentatges. Gràcies als

these percentages. Thanks to the

que heu seguit el podcast, sobretot espero

that you have followed the podcast, I hope so above all

que hagi estat útil i que

that it has been helpful and that

t'hagi donat poder de pensament.

may have given you the power of thought.

Amb el llibre i el podcast de Felicitat Digital

With the book and the podcast of Digital Happiness.

he recuperat les ganes de

I have regained the desire to

transformar-me i aprendre.

transform me and learn.

Espero que t'hagi impregnat d'aquesta passió

I hope it has instilled this passion in you.

de comprendre el món que ens envolta,

to understand the world around us,

fugir dels titulars alarmistes, fugir

flee from alarmist headlines, flee

dels blancs i els negres,

of the whites and the blacks,

buscar els grisos. El poder del podcast

search for the greys. The power of the podcast

és aquest. Un podcast no és només un format

It is this. A podcast is not just a format.

que et permet escoltar quan i

that allows you to listen when and

des d'on vulguis. Un podcast és

from wherever you want. A podcast is

la ràdio feta a foc lent

the radio made at low heat

i sense artificis, poder tenir tot el temps

and without artifices, to have all the time.

del món i sense estrès per parlar

of the world and without stress to speak

amb algú que aporta. De totes maneres

with someone who contributes. Anyway

si em segueixes ja ho saps, parlar

if you follow me you already know, to talk

del sexe dels àngels o fer volar coloms,

of the sex of angels or making pigeons fly,

no és per res la meva manera de fer.

It's not at all my way of doing things.

Tot ha de tenir una certa utilitat,

Everything must have a certain usefulness,

tenir un sentit, i tot el que

to have a meaning, and everything that

m'expliquen ha de ser nou per mi.

They tell me it has to be new for me.

Només d'aquesta manera em sento viva.

Only in this way do I feel alive.

Per tant, avui a la meva llibreta de paper

Therefore, today in my paper notebook

hi faig l'últim títol.

I'm doing the final title.

Explica'm un concepte que desconec

Explain to me a concept that I don't know.

de forma entenedora.

in an understandable way.

Dona'm poders per entendre

Give me powers to understand.

el futur que ens espera.

the future that awaits us.

Adeu!

Goodbye!

Felicitat Digital

Digital Happiness

Busquem el benestar digital

We seek digital well-being.

amb Mariola Dinarès

with Mariola Dinarès

i Catalunya Ràdio

and Catalunya Ràdio

Catalunya Àudio

Catalonia Audio

Som podcast

We are a podcast.

L'Agència de Ciberseguretat de Catalunya

The Cybersecurity Agency of Catalonia

us ofereix aquest espai.

offers you this space.

L'Agència de Ciberseguretat de Catalunya

The Cybersecurity Agency of Catalonia

us ofereix aquest espai.

offers you this space.