El sistema Tokugawa: Com dissenyar estabilitat amb Jonathan López-Vera

El que és el que és

What is, is what it is.

Com coneixeu? Em dic Adrià i sóc el creador de Dissenyo Japón, un projecte, podcast...

How do you know each other? My name is Adrià and I am the creator of Dissenyo Japón, a project, podcast...

Bé, no sé gaire bé encara què és, però sí sé que parlem sobre el Japó i el disseny,

Well, I don't quite know what it is yet, but I do know that we're talking about Japan and design.

amb persones expertes en cultura i història japonesa.

with experts in Japanese culture and history.

I quan parlem de disseny, no parlem només de la part més material,

And when we talk about design, we are not just talking about the most material part,

sinó que també parlem de la part més immaterial, com la cultura, la història...

but we also talk about the most immaterial part, such as culture, history...

que expliquen el per què una cosa s'ha dissenyat d'una manera i no d'una altra.

that explain why something has been designed in one way and not another.

Ja sigui, per exemple, el disseny...

Whether it is, for example, the design...

el disseny d'estratègies militars o el disseny d'una illa artificial japonesa,

the design of military strategies or the design of a Japanese artificial island,

temes que precisament vam parlar amb aquest senyor que tinc aquí al costat,

topics that we just talked about with this gentleman I have here next to me,

en podcast anterior i que podeu escoltar també al canal de Dissenyo Japón.

in the previous podcast that you can also listen to on the Dissenyo Japón channel.

I és que avui tenim molta sort, perquè es troba entre nosaltres en Jonathan López Vera,

And today we are very lucky because Jonathan López Vera is among us.

doctor i divulgador en història japonesa, professor d'universitat i escriptor.

doctor and popularizer in Japanese history, university professor and writer.

Ah, i exdissenyador gràfic. Ho puc dir, això?

Ah, and graphic designer. Can I say that?

Sí, i tant, i tant. No escapes a casa.

Yes, absolutely, definitely. Don't escape home.

A més, és autor d'aquest llibre que teniu aquí davant, anomenat Història de los Samurais,

Additionally, he is the author of this book you have in front of you, called History of the Samurais.

que, per cert, Jonathan, avui no aprofitaré per demanar-te el que me'l signis,

that, by the way, Jonathan, I won’t take the opportunity to ask you to sign it for me today,

perquè ja el tinc signat per tu, però potser quan surti la versió catalana del llibre aquest any,

because I already have it signed for you, but maybe when the Catalan version of the book comes out this year,

que crec que era al setembre, potser t'ho torno a demanar.

that I think it was in September, maybe I'll ask you about it again.

Jo l'he de tenir al juny, al mes vinent, però prefereixen esperar-se que surti al mercat al setembre,

I have to have it in June, next month, but they prefer to wait for it to be released on the market in September.

així que ja anirem fent hype.

So we will be building hype.

De nou, gràcies per formar part d'una xerrada més de Dissenyo Japón.

Again, thank you for being part of another talk of Dissenyo Japón.

De res, a tu.

You're welcome, to you.

Gràcies.

Thank you.

I tant, ja has anat a votar?

Of course, have you already gone to vote?

No, encara no, aniré després. I a més sóc apoderat, així que avui tinc una tarda bastant llarga.

No, not yet, I'll go later. And besides, I'm a proxy, so I have a pretty long afternoon today.

Fins que hi hagi recompte i tal.

Until there is a count and such.

Molts ànims.

Many encouragements.

Quina coincidència que just avui, 12 de maig, siguin les eleccions de Catalunya

What a coincidence that today, May 12, are the elections in Catalonia.

per introduir el tema del que parlarem avui.

to introduce the topic we will be discussing today.

Ja adelanto que no parlarem sobre les eleccions,

I already anticipate that we will not talk about the elections,

més que res perquè a l'època en què ens transportarem al Japó del segle XVII,

more than anything because during the time we will transport ourselves to 17th century Japan,

d'eleccions democràtiques,

of democratic elections,

som avui en dia, més aviat, escasses o nules.

we are nowadays, rather, scarce or nonexistent.

Bé, també guanyava la dreta, eh?

Well, the right was also winning, huh?

O sigui, el Japó guanya la dreta quan voten i guanyava la dreta quan no votaven,

That is, Japan wins the right when they vote and the right was winning when they did not vote.

així que, més o menys.

so, more or less.

El que sí que existien eren guerres, batalles i, sobretot, sobretot,

What did exist were wars, battles, and, above all, above all,

estratègies polítiques i militars per aconseguir arribar al poder.

political and military strategies to gain power.

Però avui no ens centrarem tant en com aconseguir el poder,

But today we will not focus so much on how to gain power,

sinó com mantenir-lo durant segles.

but how to maintain it for centuries.

De fet, ara està de moda la sèrie Shoguns.

In fact, the Shoguns series is currently in vogue.

Per cert, no ens paguen per fer publicitat.

By the way, they don't pay us to advertise.

No sé si algú que ens escolta, els oients o la gent que tenim aquí davant ho han vist.

I don't know if anyone listening to us, the audience or the people we have here in front, has seen it.

A la sèrie, un dels protagonistes és precisament de qui parlarem avui.

In the series, one of the protagonists is precisely the one we will talk about today.

No només explicarem com va aconseguir el màxim poder per governar el Japó

Not only will we explain how he achieved the maximum power to govern Japan.

durant el segle XVII, sinó també què va fer per mantenir-lo.

during the 17th century, but also what it did to maintain it.

Ens referim a Tokugawa Ieyasu, conegut com a Toranaga a la sèrie de Shogun.

We are referring to Tokugawa Ieyasu, known as Toranaga in the Shogun series.

Així doncs, avui a Dissenyo Japón ens farem les següents preguntes per intentar respondre-les.

Thus, today at Dissenyo Japón we will ask ourselves the following questions in an attempt to answer them.

Com al segle XVII es va dissenyar un sistema que haurà de proporcionar estabilitat a la societat japonesa?

How was a system designed in the 17th century that would provide stability to Japanese society?

I compte, quan parlem d'estabilitat, a què ens referim exactament?

And when we talk about stability, what exactly do we mean?

Pau?

Peace?

Control?

Control?

Poder?

Power?

Vanestar social?

Social status?

A través de quines eines es va aconseguir això?

Through which tools was this achieved?

I a qui li interessava realment l'estabilitat del país i per què?

And who was really interested in the stability of the country and why?

Avui contestarem aquestes i moltes altres preguntes gràcies a en Jonathan.

Today we will answer these and many other questions thanks to Jonathan.

Però abans de començar, he portat una petita sorpresa, Jonathan, ja que...

But before we begin, I've brought a little surprise, Jonathan, because...

Quina por.

What fear.

He pensat que estem a l'àrea lliure.

I have thought that we are in the free area.

Fa bon dia, no?

It's a nice day, isn't it?

Què et sembla si preparo ràpidament un vermutet mentre fem la xerrada?

What do you think if I quickly prepare a vermouth while we chat?

Ens sembla genial. De fet, podem passar de la xerrada.

We think it's great. In fact, we can skip the chat.

Aviam, perquè a en Jonathan li agraden diverses begudes, no?

Let’s see, because Jonathan likes several drinks, right?

Sí.

Yes.

I avui et donaré a escollir... No tenim Ramon, eh? Que no és una beguda japonesa.

And today I will let you choose... We don't have Ramon, right? It's not a Japanese drink.

Avui tenim sueps Ginger Ale o un Bitter Cass.

Today we have Ginger Ale or a Bitter Cass.

Jo tinc una norma. Si hi ha sol, o sigui, mentre és de dia, Bitter Cass i a la nit, Ginger Ale.

I have a rule. If it's sunny, that is, while it's daytime, Bitter Cass and at night, Ginger Ale.

Perfecte. Doncs Bitter Cass pel Jonathan.

Perfect. So Bitter Cass for Jonathan.

I està freda i tot, tio.

And it's cold and everything, man.

I està freda, sí.

And it's cold, yes.

Bueno, a la vostra salut. Sí, sé que és una beguda de senyora, m'és igual.

Well, to your health. Yes, I know it’s a woman’s drink, I don’t care.

Tinc patatetes, també, si en vols, eh?

I have some chips too, if you want, okay?

Escolta, ara sí, comencem i posem llum al personatge de Tokugawa Ieyasu.

Listen, now yes, let's start and shed light on the character of Tokugawa Ieyasu.

Jonathan, perquè les persones que ens escolten ho entenguin,

Jonathan, so that the people listening to us understand it,

podries explicar breument qui era aquest home i què volia exactament Tokugawa Ieyasu?

Could you briefly explain who this man was and what exactly Tokugawa Ieyasu wanted?

Breument no, però ho intentaré. No sé explicar breument res, la veritat.

Briefly no, but I will try. I honestly don't know how to explain anything briefly.

Tokugawa Ieyasu és el que coneixem com a un dels tres unificadors del Japó.

Tokugawa Ieyasu is what we know as one of the three unifiers of Japan.

Llavors, hem de saber que el Japó portava des de meitat del segle XV en guerra absoluta,

Then, we must know that Japan had been in absolute war since the mid-15th century,

no una guerra del nord contra el sud o l'est contra l'oest, sinó tothom va en guerra contra tothom,

not a war of the north against the south or the east against the west, but everyone is at war against everyone.

i llavors van ser tres senyors samurais consecutius, lluitant junts, perquè realment no eren enemics entre ells,

and then there were three consecutive samurai, fighting together, because they really were not enemies among themselves,

que van anar estabilitzant-lo. Llavors, sempre s'ha de parlar de les tres maries, no?

that they were stabilizing it. Then, one always has to talk about the three Marys, right?

Aquests tres, Oda Nobunaga va ser qui va començar, va aconseguir unificar, és a dir, conquerir un terç del país,

These three, Oda Nobunaga was the one who started, managed to unify, that is, conquer a third of the country.

el terç central, aproximadament, però llavors ell va morir, traït per un dels seus generals, això surt a Shogun,

the central third, approximately, but then he died, betrayed by one of his generals, this is mentioned in Shogun,

la marico que té aquell trauma, no?, de Flaixos de Vietnam, d'una traïció i tal,

the guy who has that trauma, right?, from Vietnamese Flashbacks, about a betrayal and such,

doncs era el seu pare. Després va venir un vasall, un general de Nobunaga, que era Togetomi Hideyoshi,

so it was his father. Then a vassal came, a general of Nobunaga, who was Togetomi Hideyoshi,

que ell ja va conquerir tot el país, però ell no va aconseguir estabilitzar aquesta situació,

that he had already conquered the whole country, but he did not manage to stabilize this situation,

en part perquè, quan ell va morir, el seu hereu tenia només cinc anys, no?, també ara seria Shogun, doncs és el nen aquell.

In part because, when he died, his heir was only five years old, right? So now he would be Shogun, well, it's that kid.

I després va venir Tokugawa Ieyasu, i Tokugawa Ieyasu, sí, es va trobar una mica ja la cosa feta, no?,

And then came Tokugawa Ieyasu, and Tokugawa Ieyasu, yes, found things a bit already done, right?

sempre es diu, Oda Nobunaga va plantar l'arròs, Togetomi Hideyoshi el va cuinar, i Tokugawa Ieyasu se'l va menjar.

It is always said, Oda Nobunaga planted the rice, Togetomi Hideyoshi cooked it, and Tokugawa Ieyasu ate it.

Ell també havia contribuït, ell havia lluitat per unificar el país, però treballant pels altres, no?

He had also contributed, he had fought to unify the country, but working for others, right?

I ell va saber, primer, fer-se amb el poder, en teoria ell formava part d'un consell de cinc regents,

And he knew how, first, to seize power; in theory, he was part of a council of five regents.

que només havien de governar el país fins que el nen, l'hereu, tingués l'edat per fer-ho ell mateix,

that they only had to govern the country until the boy, the heir, was of age to do it himself,

però, bueno, ràpidament va haver-hi problemes, i ell es va fer amb el poder, i sobretot, i és del que parlarem una mica avui,

but, well, problems quickly arose, and he took control, and above all, and that's what we'll talk about a bit today,

ell sí que va aconseguir que el poder es quedés a la seva família, a la família Tokugawa, durant més de dos segles i mig.

He did manage to keep power within his family, the Tokugawa family, for more than two and a half centuries.

Va haver-hi quinze shogun, quinze governants, fins al 1868, tots de la família Tokugawa,

There were fifteen shoguns, fifteen rulers, until 1868, all from the Tokugawa family.

i sobretot, durant aquests 250 anys, al Japó pràcticament no hi va haver cap guerra, ni cap problema així social...

And above all, during these 250 years, there was practically no war in Japan, nor any such social problem...

Sí, de tant en quant, embrunes, quan hi havia males collites i tal, i alguna supletació camparola per aquí i per allà,

Yes, now and then, drizzles, when there were bad harvests and such, and some rural supplementation here and there,

però veníem de més de cent anys de guerra absoluta, i això el Japó no ho va conèixer ja fins al 1868.

but we came from more than a hundred years of absolute war, and Japan did not experience this until 1868.

Tokugawa Ieyasu, què buscava exactament a part del poder?

Tokugawa Ieyasu, what exactly was he seeking apart from power?

Volia prosperitat?

Did you want prosperity?

Volia que deixés de lluitar entre ells?

Did I want him to stop fighting among them?

Al final, el que vol qualsevol governant, sobretot un governant nou, que arriba amb un govern nou, el que vol és estabilitat.

In the end, what any ruler wants, especially a new ruler who comes with a new government, is stability.

Que aquella situació canviant, deixi de canviar, perquè ara que em mano jo, doncs no vull que res canviï, no?

That changing situation should stop changing, because now that I’m in charge, I don’t want anything to change, right?

Vull seguir manant jo, i després el meu fill, el meu nen, etc.

I want to keep ruling myself, and then my son, my child, etc.

Llavors, això requereix de tota una sèrie de mesures per intentar que res es mogui.

Then, this requires a whole series of measures to try to prevent anything from moving.

Llavors, mesures de tipus ideològic, no?

So, ideological measures, right?

Van adoptar el neoconfucianisme xinès com a ideologia oficial,

They adopted Chinese Neoconfucianism as the official ideology,

que és una ideologia que bàsicament el que potencia és que tu has de ser allò que ets per naixement,

that it is an ideology that basically promotes that you have to be what you are by birth,

i no voler ser gaire cosa més, i allò que ets fer-ho el millor possible, però que les coses no canviïn, que tot segueixi igual,

and not wanting to be much more, and what you are to do it as best as possible, but that things do not change, that everything remains the same,

i una sèrie de mesures polítiques, que és el que avui parlarem, per intentar...

And a series of political measures, which is what we will discuss today, to try to...

Bàsicament el que volien era posar...

Basically, what they wanted was to put...

Estabilitat, no?, que comentaves.

Stability, right? That you were talking about.

Abans que hi hagués un problema, prendre mesures perquè no s'arribés a produir.

Before there was a problem, take measures so that it does not occur.

De fet, les persones que ens escolten saben perfectament que perquè hi hagi estabilitat social i pau,

In fact, the people who listen to us know perfectly well that in order to have social stability and peace,

és necessari un cert grau de, podríem dir, control, gestió,

a certain degree of, we could say, control, management, is necessary.

i aquest control pot prendre diverses formes, no?, com ara l'aplicació de lleis i regulacions,

and this control can take various forms, right?, such as the application of laws and regulations,

la preservació de l'ordre públic, la gestió de recursos,

the preservation of public order, the management of resources,

o la promoció de valors i normes compartides, com ara, per exemple,

or the promotion of shared values and norms, such as, for example,

ens comentava el Jonathan amb el neoconfusionisme, no?

Jonathan was telling us about neoconfusionism, right?

I pel que he llegit al teu llibre, La Història de los Samuráis,

And for what I have read in your book, The History of the Samurai,

Tokugawa Ieyasu, el seu fill, Hidetada, i el seu net, Iemitsu,

Tokugawa Ieyasu, his son, Hidetada, and his grandson, Iemitsu,

tenien força clar el que havien de fer.

They were quite clear about what they had to do.

Quina va ser una de les primeres coses que va fer Tokugawa Ieyasu

What was one of the first things that Tokugawa Ieyasu did?

per començar, diguéssim, a estabilitzar el Japó?

To begin with, let's say, to stabilize Japan?

Ell primer el que van fer és utilitzar allò que havien heretat, allò que ja hi havia,

The first thing they did was to use what they had inherited, what was already there,

perquè ho va crear Toyotomi Hideyoshi, aquest el segon dels tres unificadors,

because it was created by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the second of the three unifiers,

doncs allò que els hi va semblar bona idea, doncs lògicament ho van mantenir, no?

So what seemed like a good idea to them, well logically they kept it, right?

I algunes d'aquelles coses no només les van mantenir, sinó que les van perfeccionar,

And some of those things were not only maintained, but were also perfected,

les van acabar de rodonir.

They just rounded them off.

Llavors, aquí tenim un munt de lleis enfocades a mantenir l'estabilitat,

So, here we have a bunch of laws aimed at maintaining stability,

per exemple, es va decretar, això ho va fer Toyotomi Hideyoshi,

for example, it was decreed, this was done by Toyotomi Hideyoshi,

es va separar les diferents classes socials, o estaments socials, millor,

it separated the different social classes, or social estates, better.

es va definir, això ho va fer Toyotomi Hideyoshi, es va separar les diferents classes socials, o estaments socials, millor,

It was defined, this was done by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, he separated the different social classes, or social estates, better.

es va definir quin estament era, doncs els camperols, els comerciants, els samurais, etc.

It was defined which estate it was, as the peasants, the merchants, the samurais, etc.

Llavors es va establir que no es podia canviar d'un a un altre.

Then it was established that one could not change from one to another.

És curiós que això ho va fer Toyotomi Hideyoshi.

It's curious that this was done by Toyotomi Hideyoshi.

Què vols dir que no es pot canviar?

What do you mean it can't be changed?

Si tu eres el fill d'un samurai, no podies dir, mira, doncs jo no vull ser samurai,

If you are the son of a samurai, you couldn't say, look, I don't want to be a samurai.

jo prefereixo obrir-me una botigueta i ser comerciant, no podies.

I prefer to open a little shop and be a merchant, you couldn't.

I al revés, tu no podies ser un camperol, i llavors un camperol podia ser cridat a files,

And conversely, you could not be a peasant, and then a peasant could be called to serve.

si feia falta, no?, com a soldat d'infanteria, no?

If it was necessary, right?, as an infantry soldier, right?

com a soldat d'infanteria, no?

as an infantry soldier, right?

com a Shigaru, que es deia.

as Shigaru, as it was called.

Però si abans es podia pujar, llavors tu podies quedar-te, no?,

But if you could go up before, then you could stay, right?

com quan es feia aquí la mili i algú es reenganxava i es quedava,

like when they did military service here and someone re-enlisted and stayed,

llavors podies anar pujant dins d'aquell exercit.

Then you could start ascending within that army.

De fet, Toyotomi Hideyoshi va començar així,

In fact, Toyotomi Hideyoshi started like this,

ell era el fill d'un camperol i va anar pujant fins a ser el japonès més poderós de la història.

He was the son of a farmer and rose to become the most powerful Japanese in history.

Però ell va tancar la porta, després de passar ell, no?,

But he closed the door after passing through, right?

va decretar que això ja no es podia fer.

he decreed that this could no longer be done.

Doncs a partir d'aquell moment, res.

Well, from that moment on, nothing.

Si tu eres el fill d'un camperol, el teu objectiu a la vida era ser el millor camperol,

If you are the son of a peasant, your goal in life was to be the best peasant.

el que poguessis ser.

what you could be.

Però no voler ser cap altra cosa.

But not wanting to be anything else.

I això per què es va fer així?

And why was it done this way?

És a dir, per què aquesta rigidesa, no?,

That is to say, why this rigidity, right?

si ets un fill d'un comercial o d'un camperol,

if you are the child of a salesman or a farmer,

doncs, ei, tu també ho seràs.

well, hey, you will be too.

Que les coses no es moguin.

That things don't move.

Al final tot va encaminat cap a lo mateix.

In the end, everything is directed towards the same thing.

La prohibició del cristianisme, l'expulsió dels europeus, tot.

The prohibition of Christianity, the expulsion of Europeans, everything.

Fer, per exemple, en el moment en què regules qui és camperol, qui no ho és,

Do, for example, at the moment when you regulate who is a farmer and who is not,

per exemple, pots dir que a partir d'ara només els samurais tindran armes.

For example, you can say that from now on only the samurais will have weapons.

I els camperols no en tindran.

And the peasants will not have any.

Això què fa?

What does this do?

Això està estallant una mica la possibilitat

This is bursting the possibility a bit.

que un grup de camperols d'una vila es rebel·lin en contra del seu senyor.

that a group of peasants from a village rebel against their lord.

Això fa que el daimio, que el senyor d'aquell territori, d'aquell feu,

This means that the daimyo, the lord of that territory, of that fief,

estigui tranquil perquè d'ell cap a baix no se li rebel·laran.

"Be calm because those below him will not rebel."

I llavors això també fa que, en aquest cas el governant,

And then this also means that, in this case, the ruler,

també sàpiga que no tindrà problemes a les províncies.

Also know that you will not have problems in the provinces.

Que no hi haurà un senyor que, per pressió dels seus ciutadans,

That there will not be a gentleman who, under pressure from his citizens,

llavors es revolti en contra del govern central.

then it rises up against the central government.

I això va ser una de les primeres coses

And this was one of the first things.

que va fer Tokugawa Ieyasu.

what Tokugawa Ieyasu did.

Sí, va mantenir això, el tema de les armes,

Yes, he maintained that, the issue of arms,

el tema del control, que només hi hagués un castell per feu,

the issue of control, that there would only be one castle per fief,

un castell per domini, per territori,

a castle for dominion, for territory,

amb l'excusa, en teoria, de ja no hi ha guerres i no hi haurà guerres,

with the excuse, in theory, that there are no wars anymore and there will be no wars,

ja ens fan falta tants castells com teníem abans, doncs només un.

We need as many castles as we had before, just one.

Això va fer, a més, van decretar que els samurais ja no podien viure a les viles,

This also meant that they decreed that the samurais could no longer live in the villages,

als pobles, sinó que havien de viure o bé al castell o bé al voltant del castell.

to the villages, but they had to live either in the castle or around the castle.

Això va fer créixer les ciutats.

This made the cities grow.

Al mateix temps, els camperols, encara que, per exemple,

At the same time, the peasants, although, for example,

els havien impedit ser una altra cosa que no fos ser camperol,

they had prevented them from being anything other than a peasant,

i els havien tret les armes, però també els havien tret els samurais del damunt.

And they had taken away their weapons, but they had also taken the samurais off them.

És a dir, els samurais ja no estaven per allà emprenyant.

That is to say, the samurais were no longer around to annoy.

Has dit que als camperols li van treure les armes.

You said that the peasants were disarmed.

Això vol dir que només algun tipus d'estament social devia tenir armes.

This means that only some type of social estate must have had weapons.

Només els samurais.

Only the samurais.

Això també va deixar els camperols una mica indefensos,

This also left the peasants a little defenseless,

perquè, clar, només tenen armes els samurais sí,

because, of course, only the samurais have weapons yes,

però també hi ha gent que està fora de la llei.

but there are also people who are outside the law.

També hi havia bandits que podien atacar una vila camperola per robar

There were also bandits who could attack a rural village to steal.

i aquells sí que portaven armes, lògicament.

And those did carry weapons, logically.

Llavors, els camperols es van haver de buscar una mica la vida

Then, the peasants had to fend for themselves a little.

i van desenvolupar tota una sèrie d'armament a partir d'eines del camp.

They developed a whole series of weapons from farming tools.

Els nunchakus i altres armes que coneixem dels marcials es van inventar per això.

Nunchakus and other weapons known from martial arts were invented for this reason.

Eren utensilis de treball del camp.

They were tools for working the land.

Van haver de dissenyar les seves pròpies armes perquè tenien prohibit tenir armes.

They had to design their own weapons because they were forbidden to have weapons.

Total. La porra que veiem que porten molts policies,

Total. The baton that we see many police officers carrying,

que és allò que no és només un pal sinó que té un altre petit que hi surt,

what is it that is not just a stick but has another small one that comes out of it,

encara que ells l'utilitzen per pagar igual, allò es diu tonfa

even though they use it to pay anyway, that is called tonfa

i és una cosa que servia en un principi per moure una pedra de molí,

and it is something that was originally used to move a millstone,

fer-la rodar, i els camperols la van haver d'adaptar una mica.

make it roll, and the peasants had to adapt it a little.

Llavors, si hi havia algun tipus d'inspecció, diguéssim,

Then, if there was some kind of inspection, let's say,

doncs és com, armes? No, jo no tinc armes.

So it's like, weapons? No, I don't have weapons.

Mira, això és per moure la pedra del molí, això és per treure el gra de la palla

Look, this is to move the millstone, this is to separate the grain from the chaff.

quan fem la collita de l'arròs, etcètera, etcètera.

when we harvest the rice, etcetera, etcetera.

Fa un moment comentaves que els samurais havien de viure al castell, no?

A moment ago you were saying that the samurais had to live in the castle, right?

Tinc entès, segons el teu llibre també,

I understand, according to your book as well,

que això és interessant a nivell d'arquitectura,

that this is interesting at an architectural level,

que a partir que Tokugawa Ieyasu va obtenir el títol de shogun,

that after Tokugawa Ieyasu obtained the title of shogun,

no es podien construir castells així a la babalà, no?

You couldn't build castles like that randomly, could you?

No, no, no, ni ampliar els que ja tenies.

No, no, no, nor expand the ones you already had.

De fet, el 1615 es va publicar un codi de normes,

In fact, in 1615 a code of norms was published,

que era el buke shohato, que després, vint anys després, es va ampliar,

what buke shohato was, which later, twenty years later, was expanded,

que establia tota una sèrie de normes, sobretot pels samurais i pels senyors.

that established a whole series of rules, especially for samurais and lords.

I una de les coses que impedia, impedia moltes,

And one of the things that prevented, prevented many,

i totes enfocades al final al mateix,

and all focused in the end on the same thing,

però una de les coses que impedia, impedia moltes, i totes enfocades al final al mateix,

but one of the things that prevented, prevented many, and all focused in the end on the same,

i totes enfocades al mateix,

and all focused on the same,

una de les coses era, doncs això,

one of the things was, well this,

que els castells s'havien de reparar quan fos necessari.

that the castles had to be repaired when necessary.

S'havia d'informar el govern que s'anava a reparar un castell.

The government had to be informed that a castle was going to be repaired.

I per què reparar? És a dir, quin sentit té això?

And why repair? That is, what sense does this make?

Bueno, pel pas del temps, senzillament.

Well, simply because of the passage of time.

Perquè els senyors també tenien prohibits fer la guerra entre ells,

Because the gentlemen were also prohibited from waging war against each other,

és a dir, a partir d'ara ni feu la guerra contra el govern

That is to say, from now on do not wage war against the government.

ni tampoc entre vosaltres.

nor among you either.

Qualsevol problema ens ho dieu nosaltres i ho apanyem, no?

Any problem, just let us know and we'll sort it out, right?

Però s'havien de fer qualsevol reconstrucció,

But any reconstruction had to be made,

qualsevol canvi en un castell, havien de avisar el govern,

any change in a castle, they had to notify the government,

i aquell canvi no podia ser, en principi,

and that change could not be, in principle,

per ampliar ni per millorar, diguéssim,

"to expand or to improve, let’s say,"

era mantenir-lo com estava, però ja està.

It was to keep it as it was, but it's done.

I es podien construir, no sé, molts castells o per territori?

And could many castles be built, I don't know, by territory?

Un per territori i ja està.

One per territory and that's it.

Era com, vale, el senyor de cada territori viu al castell,

It was like, okay, the lord of each territory lives in the castle,

té allà els seus homes i ja està.

he has his men there and that's it.

I això va fer, lògicament, que tots els comerciants, artesans,

And this logically made all the merchants, artisans,

anessin a viure allà i les ciutats van començar a créixer moltíssim.

they went to live there and the cities began to grow very much.

Llavors ens trobem que va haver un moment

Then we find that there was a moment

en què la ciutat més poblada del món, amb molta diferència,

in which the most populated city in the world, by a large margin,

era Edo,

it was Edo,

que avui en dia coneixem com a Tòquio,

that we now know as Tokyo,

tenia un milió d'habitants,

it had a million inhabitants,

mentre que les ciutats més poblades d'Occident,

while the most populated cities in the West,

que serien París o Londres, tenien 350.000.

that would be Paris or London, had 350,000.

És a dir, pràcticament ho triplicava.

That is to say, it practically tripled it.

I al Japó hi havia altres ciutats com Osaka o Kyoto

And in Japan there were other cities like Osaka or Kyoto.

que també tenien uns 350.000 habitants.

that also had about 350,000 inhabitants.

Així que estem parlant d'un grau d'urbanització

So we are talking about a degree of urbanization.

molt elevat pel seu temps.

very high for his time.

Abans comentaves un altre tema

Earlier you mentioned another topic.

que hem pogut veure en moltes pel·lícules,

that we have been able to see in many movies,

Silencio, per exemple, de Martin Scorsese i altres,

Silence, for example, by Martin Scorsese and others,

que és la prohibició del cristianisme.

what is the prohibition of Christianity.

Clar, jo tinc entès que abans de Tokugawa Ieyasu,

Of course, I understand that before Tokugawa Ieyasu,

diguéssim, fos el Shogun,

let's say, was the Shogun,

sí que hi havia forces relacions amb el cristianisme,

there were indeed many relationships with Christianity,

però Tokugawa Ieyasu no era gaire fan dels cristians, no?

But Tokugawa Ieyasu wasn't a big fan of Christians, was he?

Cap dels governants del Japó era gaire fan dels cristians.

None of the rulers of Japan were very fond of Christians.

Perquè eren un focus potencial,

Because they were a potential hotspot,

és a dir, potser sí, potser no,

that is to say, maybe yes, maybe no,

però el risc és massa gran d'inestabilitat.

but the risk of instability is too great.

Llavors Tokugawa Ieyasu,

Then Tokugawa Ieyasu,

Togitomi Hideyoshi ja va arribar a aquella conclusió

Togitomi Hideyoshi had already reached that conclusion.

i ja va començar a prohibir-lo,

and it already started to prohibit it,

però als dos anys es va morir.

but he died at two years old.

I llavors Tokugawa Ieyasu va fer una mica de tabula rasa,

And then Tokugawa Ieyasu made a bit of a clean slate,

és a dir, bé, comencem de nou.

That is to say, well, let's start again.

I ell, per exemple, estava molt interessat

And he, for example, was very interested.

a negociar amb els castellans, que estaven a Filipines,

to negotiate with the Castilians, who were in the Philippines,

perquè els castellans tenien un comerç,

because the Castilians had a trade,

l'índia comercial, diguéssim, una ruta,

the commercial route, let's say, a route,

i ell, per exemple, estava molt interessat

and he, for example, was very interested

que unia Manila, a Filipines, amb Acapulco,

that connected Manila, in the Philippines, with Acapulco,

i a partir d'allà creuava en Mèxic

and from there I was crossing into Mexico

i arribava a Europa,

and I arrived in Europe,

tota una línia comercial que, a més, passava molt a prop del Japó.

a whole commercial line that, moreover, passed very close to Japan.

Perquè per anar de les Filipines a Acapulco,

Because to go from the Philippines to Acapulco,

encara que tu mires un mapa

even if you look at a map

i facis una línia recta, aquella línia recta no existeix.

And you make a straight line, that straight line does not exist.

Les corrents marines no et deixen fer-la.

The sea currents won't let you do it.

Has de pujar molt cap al nord,

You have to go far north.

has de passar pràcticament fregant el Japó

You have to pass practically by brushing against Japan.

i més cap al nord, i llavors

and further north, and then

creuar pràcticament per l'estet de Bering

to cross practically through the Bering Strait

i baixar per la costa dels Estats Units.

and go down along the coast of the United States.

I ell volia, doncs, ja que passés

And he wanted, therefore, that it happened.

per aquí al costat, pareu al Japó

over here next door, stop in Japan

i volem participar d'aquesta ruta comercial.

and we want to participate in this trade route.

I també volia que els castellans

And I also wanted the Spanish.

li enviessin tècnics en mineria,

they send him mining technicians,

perquè al Japó hi havia molta plata,

because in Japan there was a lot of silver,

s'estava explotant molt, però no tant

It was exploding a lot, but not so much.

com els castellans estaven explotant mines

how the Spaniards were exploiting mines

a Sud-amèrica, Potosí i altres mines.

to South America, Potosí and other mines.

Llavors era com, ei, anem a fer negocis.

Then it was like, hey, let's do business.

Castella no estava gens

Castella was not at all.

interessada en fer negocis al Japó, però tampoc

interested in doing business in Japan, but not either

els hi volien dir no. Per què?

they wanted to say no to them. Why?

Perquè llavors el Japó podia agafar 300.000 soldats,

Because then Japan could take 300,000 soldiers,

així, portar-los a Filipines

thus, to take them to the Philippines

i treure'ls d'allà. Llavors era com

and take them out of there. Then it was like

havien de mantenir una mica un...

they had to maintain a little bit of a...

Llavors ell anava demanant tècnics

Then he was asking for technicians.

en mines i l'únic que li enviaven eren monjos.

In mines and the only ones they sent were monks.

Perquè el Japó sí que estava interessada

Because Japan was indeed interested.

en... Monjos, eh?

In... Monks, huh?

Castella, sí. Bonzes,

Castile, yes. Monks,

monjos, jesuïtes,

monks, Jesuits,

sacerdots, etcètera.

priests, etcetera.

I com s'ho prenia, això, ell?

And how did he take it, this?

Doncs al principi bé, sí, al proper vaixell,

Well, at first yes, on the next ship,

però l'estaven marejant i al final va dir

but they were tiring him out and in the end he said

mira, sabeu què, que s'ha acabat.

Look, you know what, it's over.

Llavors el 1614 va decretar

Then in 1614 he decreed.

la prohibició del cristianisme i un parell

the prohibition of Christianity and a couple

de dècades després, entre el seu fill

decades later, between his son

i sobretot el seu net, Iemitsu,

and especially his grandson, Iemitsu,

van decretar que tots els estrangers

they decreed that all foreigners

que hi hagués al Japó havien de marxar,

that they had to leave Japan,

que els japonesos ja no podien sortir

that the Japanese could no longer go out

del país. Fins i tot alguns que els hi va agafar fora,

from the country. Even some who were caught outside,

comerciants, no van poder tornar a entrar al Japó.

merchants, were not able to re-enter Japan.

Es van haver d'acabar de viure, doncs, a Taigrandia

They had to finish living, then, in Taigrandia.

on estiguessin. Tot això pel risc, no?, de que

wherever they were. All this for the risk, right?, that

pogués ser algú reconvertit

could be someone converted

encara que fos japonès. Clar, és que ells

even if he was Japanese. Of course, it's that they

sabien, ells sabien perfectament,

they knew, they knew perfectly,

perquè li havien explicat als portuguesos

because they had explained to the Portuguese

i als castellans que Sud-amèrica s'havia

and to the Spaniards that South America had

conquerit enviant primer els sacerdots,

conquered by sending the priests first,

no?, convertint la gent i llavors fent

no?, turning people and then doing

que gent local es posés

that local people got involved

de part dels invasors, diguéssim.

from the invaders, let's say.

I a Filipina es va passar el mateix.

And the same happened to Filipina.

Llavors ells no volien que al Japó

Then they did not want that in Japan.

passés també el mateix. Realment Castella

the same happened. Really Castile

no tenia poder en aquell moment ni per

I had no power at that moment, not even to

arribar ni a concebre la idea

to even conceive the idea

d'enviar tropes al Japó, però ells no ho sabien,

of sending troops to Japan, but they did not know it,

els japonesos. I a més,

the Japanese. And furthermore,

bé, com que hi havia alguns senyors

well, since there were some gentlemen

de Kyushu, de la illa més al sud del Japó,

from Kyushu, the southernmost island of Japan,

que s'havien convertit al cristianisme per interès comercial,

that had converted to Christianity for commercial interests,

doncs s'havien convertit.

so they had converted.

I ja les segones generacions, clar, el que es converteix

And the second generations, of course, what it becomes.

per interès es deixa de convertir

for interest, it stops being converted

pel mateix interès. Però si

for the same interest. But if

algú es converteix i llavors

someone becomes and then

el seu fill de 5 anys també el bategen

they also baptize their 5-year-old son

i a partir d'allà comencen a anar a una escola de jesuïtes,

and from there they start going to a Jesuit school,

que és el que feien els jesuïtes...

what the Jesuits used to do...

Perquè hi havia escoles de jesuïtes al Japó. Exacte, clar.

Because there were Jesuit schools in Japan. Exactly, of course.

I no pels nens pobres

And not for poor children.

sinó pels nens rics.

but for the rich kids.

Si jo educo un nen que és l'hereu

If I educate a child who is the heir.

d'aquesta casa samurai, quan aquest

from this samurai house, when this

senyor tingui 30 anys i hereti la

Sir is 30 years old and inherits it.

posició, és dels meus, no?

Position, it's mine, right?

I això és el que feia por realment al Japó, no?

And this is what was really frightening in Japan, right?

La segona generació. Els primers,

The second generation. The first,

quan el senyor els digui al Shogun

when the gentleman tells the Shogun

tu deixes de ser cristià, deixa de ser cristià.

you stop being a christian, stop being a christian.

I molts ho van fer i de fet

And many did it, and in fact

van perseguir ells els cristians. Però hi havia

they pursued the Christians. But there were

alguns altres de segona generació que ja començaven

some others of the second generation who were already starting

a ser cristians de veritat. I allò era

to be true Christians. And that was

molt perillós. Llavors, bueno,

very dangerous. So, well,

van intentar primer

they tried first

treure la religió mantenint

to remove religion while maintaining

el comerç tal i qual, van veure que era impossible

the trade as it was, they saw that it was impossible

i van dir, mira, saps què? S'ha acabat.

And they said, look, you know what? It's over.

Tot fora. Llavors ho van prohibir absolutament tot.

Everything is out. Then they absolutely prohibited everything.

Van deixar, com van parlar aquell dia de De Gima,

They left, as they talked that day about De Gima,

van deixar un contacte puntual amb els holandesos.

they left a specific contact with the Dutch.

Que això és interessant perquè qui no ho sàpiga...

This is interesting because for those who don't know...

Més que res per tenir notícies a l'extrema dreta.

More than anything to have news about the far right.

El govern va dissenyar

The government designed

una illa artificial

an artificial island

per mantenir contactes amb els holandesos

to maintain contact with the Dutch

a nivell comercial que es diu allà

at a commercial level, what is it called there

De Gima. La van dissenyar artificialment

From Gima. They were artificially designed.

a Nagasaki.

to Nagasaki.

I era l'únic contacte

And he was the only contact.

que hi havia. La van

that there was. They took her

construir en principi pels portuguesos

to build in principle for the Portuguese

però com al final van decidir

but as they ultimately decided

quedar-se amb els holandesos, doncs els portuguesos

stay with the Dutch, then the Portuguese

es van fer fora juntament amb els castellans.

they were expelled along with the Castilians.

Els anglesos van marxar ells sols abans

The English left by themselves earlier.

que els fotessin fora. I amb els holandesos

that they should be kicked out. And with the Dutch.

van arribar un tracte i aquest tracte va estar funcionant

a deal was reached and this deal was functioning

durant 250 anys.

for 250 years.

Hi havia una petita illa artificial allà, molt petita.

There was a small artificial island there, very small.

Encara existeix. Ja no és una illa perquè la ciutat

It still exists. It is no longer an island because the city

ha crescut al voltant. Jo vaig estar allà fa 5 anys.

It has grown around. I was there 5 years ago.

Que deia un projecte per intentar treure

What was said in a project to try to bring out

tots els edificis del voltant, però...

all the buildings around, but...

És impossible. Hi han de desviar una autopista.

It is impossible. They have to reroute a highway.

O sigui, no. Allò es quedarà

So, no. That will stay.

com està. Avui en dia és una espècie

how are you. Nowadays it is a kind

de museu a l'aire lliure, parc temàtic, diguéssim.

from museum to open air, theme park, let's say.

Està molt bé.

It's very good.

Però això, i durant 250 anys els holandesos

But this, and for 250 years the Dutch

enviaven un vaixell

they sent a ship

cada any, no des d'Holanda sinó

every year, not from Holland but

des de Jakarta, des de

from Jakarta, from

la Indonèsia holandesa,

the Dutch Indonesia,

enviaven un vaixell que comerciava i també informava

they sent a ship that traded and also informed

al Japó del que estava passant a la resta del món.

in Japan of what was happening in the rest of the world.

Escolta, i...

Listen, and...

Clar, tu vas dir, van prohibir el cristianisme

Sure, you said they prohibited Christianity.

i ja hi havia japoneros cristians

And there were already Christian Japanese.

al Japó. Què va passar amb aquests

to Japan. What happened with these

que... perquè clar, si

that... because of course, if

ets cristià i ets japonès, què passa?

You are Christian and you are Japanese, what's the problem?

T'expulsa també? Clar, la majoria

Do you get expelled too? Of course, the majority.

de cristians que hi havia al Japó, amb moltíssima

of Christians that there were in Japan, with a great many

diferència, la gran majoria

difference, the vast majority

ni tan sols ho sabien, que eren cristians.

Not even did they know that they were Christians.

És a dir, el seu senyor, que

That is to say, Your Lordship, that

tenia un feu amb 25.000 persones, doncs

I had a fief with 25,000 people, then.

per tenir bones relacions amb els jesuïtes,

to have good relations with the Jesuits,

un bon dia decidia que aquells

one good day I decided that those

25.000 els crinava un paper i passaven a ser

25,000 wrote down a paper and became

cristians. I la missió

Christians. And the mission.

jesuïta japonesa,

Japanese Jesuit,

que en el moment de més gent,

that at the busiest moment,

de més efectius, van tenir 150 persones,

of more staff, they had 150 people,

i d'ells només unes 50

and of them only about 50

eren sacerdots, els altres eren ajudants, germans,

they were priests, the others were assistants, brothers,

que li deien, doncs tampoc els podia...

what they said to him, so he couldn't...

no podien realment

they couldn't really

convertir tota aquella gent, no? Fer misses

convert all those people, right? To make mass

per tota aquella gent i tal. Llavors molta gent

for all those people and such. Then a lot of people

doncs els van dir, ara ets cristià.

so they told them, now you are a Christian.

Però vale. I després els quatre

But okay. And then the four.

o cinc anys, o quan es va prohibir, els van

or five years, or when it was banned, they were

dir, ja no ets cristià. Doncs vale.

Say, you are no longer a Christian. Well, okay.

Però els que realment eren cristians

But those who were truly Christians

el que es feia era que es feien unes

what was done was that some were made

inspeccions, que també surt de l'apel·li de

inspections, which also comes from the appeal of

Silenci d'Escorcese,

Silence of Scorsese,

es anava per un poble, es feia que tota la població

He was going through a village, it seemed that the whole population...

es posessin allà en fila,

they stood there in line,

els anaven cridant pel seu nom, perquè això és una cosa

they were calling out for his name, because that is one thing

que va fer també Toyotomi Hideyoshi, que va fer

what Toyotomi Hideyoshi also did, which he did

censos de tota la població,

census of the entire population,

els anaven cridant pel seu nom i llavors posaven

they were calling out his name and then they put

a terra una estampa de la Verge

on the ground a picture of the Virgin

o de Crist, o algun crucifix,

or of Christ, or some crucifix,

o etcètera, i els hi feien o bé

or etcetera, and they either did it or...

copir o bé trepitjar-lo.

to copy or rather to step on it.

I llavors doncs hi havia alguns que no volien,

And then there were some who didn't want to,

perquè realment sentien que eren cristians

because they really felt that they were Christians

i tal, llavors aquests els executaven i ja està.

And so, they executed them and that was it.

Que des del nostre punt de vista dius, doncs

From our point of view, you say then.

trepitja-ho, tio, i segueix sent cristià,

step on it, man, and keep being Christian,

no? Que no... Però molts d'ells no,

No? That not... But many of them don't.

molts d'ells preferien morir i així

many of them preferred to die and thus

va anar la cosa, però al final ho van erradicar.

It went well, but in the end, they eradicated it.

I dius que va fer un cens

And you say that he made a census.

de la població i

of the population and

per curiositat, va ser el primer a fer-ho?

Out of curiosity, was he the first to do it?

Perquè... Va ser el primer a fer-ho

Because... He was the first to do it.

a nivell nacional, perquè

at a national level, because

almenys durant molt de temps, perquè

at least for a long time, because

clar, venim d'una etapa llarga com

sure, we come from a long stage like

de 150 anys, que el Japó està dividit, que

for 150 years, Japan has been divided, that

cada territori és com un petit rei,

each territory is like a little king,

hi ha un govern central, dels a Chicago,

there is a central government, in Chicago,

però realment només controla la capital,

but really it only controls the capital,

i la resta són com petits. Llavors

and the rest are like little ones. Then

Hideyoshi segons anava avançant i

As Hideyoshi progressed and

anava conquerint territoris, anava fent

I was conquering territories, I was making.

tot aquest tipus de recomptes. No només de població,

all this type of counts. Not just of population,

sinó també molt important de producció,

but also very important for production,

de productivitat de l'arròs.

of rice productivity.

Els territoris es van passar, en comptes

The territories were passed over, instead

de comptabilitzar-se en tamany,

to be accounted for in size,

van passar a comptabilitzar-se en producció.

they were then counted in production.

És a dir, si tu tens un territori

That is to say, if you have a territory.

petit però que produeix més arròs que

small but that produces more rice than

un territori que és més gran, doncs aquell val

a territory that is bigger, therefore that one is worth it

més diners. De fet, perquè els diners

more money. In fact, why the money

equivalien a arròs. Tu eres un senyor

they were equivalent to rice. You are a gentleman.

samurai i et donaven un

samurai and they gave you a

feu, un domini, de 20.000

make a domain of 20,000

kokus, que el koku és la unitat amb la que es

coconut, because the koku is the unit with which it is

mesurava, un koku són uns 150 quilos

it measured, one koku is about 150 kilos

d'arròs, doncs

of rice, then

t'és igual si és un territori més bonic, més

you don't mind if it's a more beautiful territory, more

lleig, més gran, més petit, produeix 20.000.

ugly, bigger, smaller, produces 20,000.

Sempre serà millor que un de 10.000.

It will always be better than one in 10,000.

Perquè al final aquells 20.000, de mitjana,

Because in the end those 20,000, on average,

no?, aquells 20.000 és amb el que tu

No? Those 20,000 are with what you...

pagues tota la resta. Pagues els teus

You pay the rest. You pay yours.

detalls, pagues si s'ha de

details, pay if necessary

construir alguna cosa. Equivala

to build something. It equals

a diners, al final.

in the end, to money.

Abans comentaves el tema de

Before you mentioned the topic of

Tokugawa Ieyasu,

Tokugawa Ieyasu,

no?, va fer aquesta divisió dels

no?, he made this division of the

estaments socials, i clar,

social strata, and of course,

jo ara m'estava preguntant, d'acord,

I was just wondering, okay,

els samurais eren un d'aquests

the samurais were one of those

estaments socials.

social estates.

Clar, no

Of course, no.

estaven en batalla, perquè el que buscava Tokugawa

they were in battle, because that was what Tokugawa was seeking

era estabilitat.

it was stability.

Què feien els samurais?

What did the samurais do?

Gairebé res.

Almost nothing.

És a dir, molts es van

That is to say, many have gone.

reconvertir, és que una altra cosa que es va establir

reconvert, it's that another thing that was established

quan es van diferenciar les classes,

when the classes were differentiated,

una altra cosa que es va establir és que els samurais

another thing that was established is that the samurai

cobrarien un sou públic.

they would receive a public salary.

Un sou que li paga el seu senyor, no?, amb aquests cocos.

A salary that his lord pays him, right?, with these coconuts.

O sigui, com ser funcionari, però sense fitxar.

So, like being a civil servant, but without clocking in.

Una mica, i hereditari,

A little, and hereditary,

etcètera. Fins llavors,

etcetera. Until then,

com cobraven els samurais?

How were the samurais paid?

Cobraven en funció de les seves

They charged based on their

morts en batalla. És a dir,

deaths in battle. That is to say,

quan tu anaves a una batalla, si havies matat

When you went to a battle, if you had killed.

quatre enemics, una cosa que no surt

four enemies, one thing that doesn't come out

a les pel·lícules és que els samurais anaven

In the movies, it is that the samurais went.

recolectant caps. És a dir, tu mataves en batalla

collecting heads. That is to say, you killed in battle.

amb algú, i llavors... T'anava a dir com es

with someone, and then... I was going to tell you how it is

comptabilitzava això, si hi havia algú allà

I accounted for that, if there was someone there.

apuntant... Tallaves el cap i te'l penjaves al cinturó.

pointing... You would cut off the head and hang it from your belt.

Que no sé quan ha de passar quatre o cinc caps

I don't know when four or five heads have to pass.

enganxats al cinturó, però sí, no sé

stuck to the belt, but yes, I don't know

com lluites amb allò. Havia d'haver el típic espavilat que passa per allà

how you deal with that. There should have been the typical clever one passing by.

i comença a tallar caps, però ja estan morts, no? I llavors

And he starts cutting off heads, but they are already dead, right? And then

al final, al final hi havia una taula

In the end, in the end there was a table.

una mica com aquesta que tenim, amb algú allà apuntant,

a little like this one we have, with someone there pointing,

i llavors tu passaves i deies 5, no?

And then you passed by and said 5, right?

I en funció d'allò cobraves.

And depending on that, you were paid.

En canvi, a partir d'aquest moment, no. Tu tens

On the contrary, from this moment on, no. You have.

un sou que et dóna el teu

a salary that gives you your

daimi o no, el teu senyor, que està

whether or not your lord is here

estipulat, doncs, en funció del que sigui,

stipulated, therefore, depending on what it may be,

i tu cobres tants cocos. No

And you earn so many coconuts. No.

és a canvi de la feina. És a dir, hi havia alguns samurais

It is in exchange for the work. That is to say, there were some samurai.

que treballaven, que es van reconvertir

that worked, that were restructured

com a buròcrates, administratius,

as bureaucrats, administrative staff,

comptables, etcètera, i hi havia alguns que

accountants, etcetera, and there were some who

seguien l'exèrcit, perquè per si de cas,

they followed the army, just in case,

lògicament, al Japó continuava havent un exèrcit,

logically, in Japan there was still an army,

però ja no era tan gran,

but it was no longer so great,

milers de... O sigui, centenars d'exèrcits

thousands of... I mean, hundreds of armies

diferents, amb milers de persones,

different, with thousands of people,

sinó que era una cosa molt més continguda, però

but it was something much more contained, however

molts d'ells directament no tenien feina.

many of them were directly unemployed.

Llavors, ells eren

Then, they were

la classe vanestant, era la classe amb

the class that was, it was the class with

educació, llavors, durant tot el període Edo,

education, then, throughout the Edo period,

que és aquest període de pau, d'uns

what is this period of peace, of some

250 anys, floreixen les arts

250 years, the arts bloom

en part per dues coses. Una,

partly for two reasons. One,

que no hi ha guerra. En una situació de guerra

that there is no war. In a situation of war

la gent no està per poesia.

People are not into poetry.

I una altra, perquè tens tota una classe

And another one, because you have an entire class.

social molt ben educada

very well-educated social

i amb molt temps lliure. Llavors, la majoria

and with a lot of free time. Then, most of the

d'escriptors, poetes, la cerimònia

of writers, poets, the ceremony

del té, totes aquestes coses

of tea, all these things

que lliguem al teatre,

that we tie to the theatre,

que lliguem amb el període Edo, de

which we tie to the Edo period, from

floriment de les arts, estan sobretot

flowering of the arts, they are above all

fetes

feats

per samurais.

for samurais.

Tenen diners, tenen educació, tenen temps.

They have money, they have education, they have time.

Són els que es poden dedicar a escriure un poema, no?

They are the ones who can dedicate themselves to writing a poem, right?

El comerciant està portant la seva botiga,

The merchant is bringing his store,

l'artista també, i el camparol no, diguem.

the artist yes, and the peasant no, let's say.

De fet,

In fact,

m'estàs fent pensar

You're making me think.

en avui en dia, no? És a dir,

Nowadays, isn't it? That is to say,

quan pensem en gent amb poder

when we think of people in power

requisit i igual,

requirement and equal,

tenen més temps, es dediquen

they have more time, they dedicate themselves

més a les arts, a la creativitat,

more to the arts, to creativity,

no? Una mica al final està clar

No? A little bit in the end it's clear.

que si tens més poder adquisitiu,

that if you have more purchasing power,

doncs pots dedicar-te més

then you can dedicate yourself more

temps a desenvolupar-te

time to develop yourself

creativament. Correcte.

Creatively. Correct.

Doncs una mica el mateix.

Well, it's a bit the same.

Sí, sí.

Yes, yes.

Tokugawa Ieyasu, quan va aconseguir el seu títol

Tokugawa Ieyasu, when he achieved his title.

de shogun,

of shogun,

clar,

of course,

imagino que va

I imagine it goes.

guanyar els seus enemics, no? Però clar,

defeating your enemies, right? But of course,

no els va matar tots, perquè el Japó era molt gran.

He didn't kill them all, because Japan was very big.

Clar, jo entenc que deu haver-hi gent

Of course, I understand that there must be people.

que estava a favor de Tokugawa i gent

that was in favor of Tokugawa and people

que no estava, però que encara estava viva.

that was not there, but that was still alive.

Sí, sí, sí, molts. I què va

Yes, yes, yes, many. And what happened?

fer amb aquestes persones? Doncs ell,

What to do with these people? Well, he,

després de la batalla de Sekigahara,

after the Battle of Sekigahara,

que els que heu vist shogun és aquella batalla que t'anuncien

that those of you who have seen shogun is that battle they announce to you

al final del darrer capítol, no?, que hi haurà,

at the end of the last chapter, right?, what will there be,

doncs després d'aquella batalla va haver molts

Well, after that battle there were many.

senyors enemics seus

gentlemen your enemies

que directament els va executar, no?

that directly executed them, right?

Uns 80 o així

About 80 or so.

senyors enemics els va executar, però a molts

gent enemies he executed, but to many

d'altres els va incorporar al seu

others incorporated them into their own

sistema. Això sí, el que va

system. That is, what goes

fer és que va crear com dues categories

to do is that he created as two categories

de senyors, no?, de daimyo.

of gentlemen, right?, of daimyo.

Hi havia els tozama,

There were the tozama,

els daimyo, perquè tothom ho entengui,

the daimyo, so that everyone understands,

què és un daimyo? Un daimyo

What is a daimyo? A daimyo

és el que, és que no m'agrada dir senyor feudal

It's just that I don't like to say feudal lord.

perquè s'ha de dir amb moltes cometes,

because it has to be said with many quotes,

però bueno, és un senyor samurai que controla

but well, he is a samurai gentleman who controls

un territori, no?, un feu,

a territory, right?, a fief,

i per això acostemem a dir lo de feudal.

And for this reason, we often talk about feudalism.

Llavors és un senyor que té, doncs

Then it is a gentleman who has, well.

pot tenir un feu molt gran i molt important

it can have a very large and very important fire

o més petit, però té,

or smaller, but it has,

controla un territori

controls a territory

i el govern del Sokuawa funcionava com

and the government of Sokuawa operated like

una espècie de federació, és a dir,

a kind of federation, that is,

aquells senyors tenien bastanta autonomia.

Those gentlemen had quite a bit of autonomy.

Només amb alguns temes i amb

Only with some themes and with

algunes lleis i havien d'estar

some laws and they had to be

per sota sopeditats al govern, no?,

underneath subordinated to the government, right?

i estaven molt controlats, però realment

and they were very controlled, but really

si no donaves cap tipus de problema els daimyo

if you didn't cause any problems for the daimyo

vivien molt, molt bé. Llavors el que va

they lived very, very well. Then what happened

fer, van fer els Sokuawa és que van fer dues

do, they did the Sokuawa is that they made two

categories de daimyo.

categories of daimyo.

Per una banda tenien els tozama

On one hand, they had the tozama.

i per una altra tenien els fudai.

And for another, they had the fudai.

Uns eren, els fudai

They were, the fudai.

eren aquells que ja eren

they were those who already were

del seu bàndol abans de la batalla de Shikigahara,

from their side before the Battle of Shikigahara,

eren els seus aliats, diguéssim,

they were their allies, let's say,

i els... Però els fudais eren els

and the... But the feudals were the

col·legis, no? Sí, que eren uns

schools, right? Yes, they were some

aproximadament 175 senyors,

approximately 175 gentlemen,

mentre que els tozama, que són

while the tozama, which are

els senyors de fora, literalment... Aquests

the gentlemen from outside, literally... These

són els apastats, no? Aquests són, exacte.

They are the subdued ones, right? These are, exactly.

I aquests eren menys, aquests eren uns 85.

And these were fewer, these were about 85.

En què es...

What is it about...

es traduïa

it was translated

aquesta... pertanyen

this... belong

a una categoria o a una altra? Primer...

to one category or another? First...

Clar, perquè t'anaven allà amb una carta com

Of course, because they were going there with a letter like

tu ets fudai, tu ets... Sí, sí,

you are a fool, you are... Yes, yes,

realment estaven així. Primer

they were really like that. First

van col·locar els tozama, que són els

they placed the tozama, which are the

periosos entre cometes, són els que has de

"dangerous in quotes, are those you have to"

tenir més compte amb ells, perquè eren enemics,

to be more careful with them, because they were enemies,

els van col·locar a llocs més

they were placed in more locations

allunyats del centre del país, no?

Far from the center of the country, right?

D'on es prenen les decisions, d'on està tot el

Where decisions are made, where everything is.

centre, els van col·locar a llocs

center, they placed them in positions

allunyats una mica més de les vies de comunicació

a little further away from the communication routes

importants... Punts estratègics

important... Strategic points

que no tinguessin un... Exacte. I sempre amb algun senyor

that they didn't have a... Exactly. And always with some gentleman

de confiança a prop, per, si

trust close by, for, if

s'enteraven que aquell senyor estava planejant

they found out that that gentleman was planning.

alguna cosa, doncs poder reaccionar.

something, then being able to react.

I sobretot, aquells tozama,

And above all, those stubborn ones,

aquells apastats una mica, aquells

those a bit flustered, those

no podien optar a càrrecs

they could not run for positions

importants dins del govern.

important within the government.

És a dir, no podien ser, doncs, el

That is to say, they could not be, therefore, the

ministre de Comerç, etc.

Minister of Commerce, etc.

I això va ser durant tot aquest temps.

And this was throughout all this time.

De fet, una de les mesures més

In fact, one of the measures most

importants que van prendre els Tokugawa

important decisions made by the Tokugawa

i que va tenir més

and what happened next

recorregut i més conseqüències,

route and more consequences,

també anava una mica lligada amb això.

it was also a bit connected with this.

I és que es va establir,

And it was established,

i això va fer, per exemple, que Edo creixés

And this caused, for example, Edo to grow.

tant, com hem dit, un milió de persones,

so, as we said, a million people,

es va establir que tots els senyors,

it was established that all the gentlemen,

en un principi era una llei només pels tozama,

In the beginning, it was a law just for the tozama,

però al poc temps es va

but soon it goes

veure que era un molt sistema i es va aplicar a tots,

to see that it was a very good system and it was applied to everyone,

es va dir que tots els senyors

it was said that all the gentlemen

samurais havien de tenir dues cases.

Samurais had to have two houses.

Una casa, una residència oficial,

A house, an official residence,

a la seva província, i una altra

in their province, and another

a Edo, a la ciutat del Shogunat.

to Edo, the city of the Shogunate.

Espera, espera, espera, si els hi vas

Wait, wait, wait, if you go to them.

regalar un xalet... No, no, se l'havien de pagar ells.

to gift a chalet... No, no, they had to pay for it themselves.

Se l'havien de pagar ells, ah. Però havien de tenir dos.

They had to pay for it themselves, ah. But they had to have two.

Imaginem-nos que és Catalunya,

Let's imagine that it is Catalonia,

i llavors diuen, vale, tots els

And then they say, okay, all the

alcaldes de Catalunya han de

mayors of Catalonia must

tenir dues cases, una al seu poble,

to have two houses, one in your village,

el de Sabadell, però també ha de tenir una

the one from Sabadell, but it must also have a

Barcelona, ciutat. I

Barcelona, city. I

a la de Barcelona ciutat hi ha de viure

in the city of Barcelona, one must live

la meitat del temps. En aquest cas, com

half the time. In this case, how

Sabadell està a prop de Barcelona, doncs bé,

Sabadell is near Barcelona, well then,

pot viure mig any i mig any. Però el

can live half a year and half a year. But the

de la Vall d'Aran, doncs com que serà més rotllo anar i

from the Vall d'Aran, so it will be more of a hassle to go and

tornar, doncs un any i un any, no?, depenia una

return, so one year and one year, right?, depended on one

mica de... Però important, la seva dona

a bit of... But important, his wife

i els seus fills viuen a Barcelona.

And their children live in Barcelona.

La seva dona i els seus fills viuen a... Sempre

His wife and children live in... Forever.

vivien... Sempre. Les famílies vivien

they lived... Always. The families lived

a la capital. O sigui...

to the capital. I mean...

El senyor havia d'estar anant i tornant,

The gentleman must have been going back and forth,

però la seva dona i els seus fills

but his wife and children

vivien sempre a la capital. Allà controladets,

they always lived in the capital. There, under control,

no?, una mica... Home, clar, això és un sistema d'hostatges.

No? A bit... Well, of course, this is a system of hostages.

Si jo m'entero que tu allà, a

If I find out that you there, at

Manresa, estàs començant a

Manresa, you are starting to

fer algun tipus de complot,

to make some kind of plot,

estàs tramant alguna

Are you plotting something?

cosa en contra del govern, doncs el primer

thing against the government, then the first

que faré és pelar la teva dona i els teus fills.

What I will do is peel your wife and your children.

Això per una banda. Per una altra,

This on one hand. On the other,

un cop que passa una generació

once a generation passes

i un d'aquells fills

and one of those sons

que s'ha criat a Edo,

who has been raised in Edo,

llavors passa a ser el Daimyo,

then it becomes the Daimyo,

no?, hereta la posició del seu pare,

no?, he inherits his father's position,

resulta que per ell

it turns out that for him

el mig any que passa al seu

the half year that passes to his/her own

territori és quan ell

territory is when he

sent que està fora de casa. Ell

feels that he is away from home. He

s'ha criat a Edo, no?

She was raised in Edo, right?

Llavors ell es trenca una mica

Then he breaks down a little.

el lligam, l'arrelament, amb aquella...

the tie, the rooting, with that...

Això fa que encara sigui més difícil per ell

This makes it even more difficult for him.

rebel·lar-se en contra d'Edo, perquè és casa seva,

rebel against Edo, because it is his home,

diguéssim, no? Estàs més centralitzat, diguéssim,

let's say, right? You're more centralized, let's say,

mentalment, no? Exacte.

Mentally, right? Exactly.

I per una altra banda, també, tot aquell viatge

And on the other hand, also, that whole journey.

que han de fer anar i tornar, clar,

they have to go and come back, of course,

no és que el Daimyo agafi un cavall i

it's not that the Daimyo takes a horse and

se'n vagi de... Però això t'anava a dir, perquè imagino

go away from... But that was what I was going to tell you, because I imagine

que anava amb tota la comunitat. Una comitiva

that went with the whole community. A procession

gegant, no?, allò era molts diners.

giant, right? That was a lot of money.

És una forma que els Daimyo també gastessin diners.

It is a way for the Daimyo to also spend money.

Si t'estàs gastant diners en coses aquestes,

If you are spending money on things like these,

tot els gastaràs en una rebel·lió, no?

You'll spend it all on a rebellion, right?

I a més, què passava? Que a Edo,

And besides, what happened? That in Edo,

com que estaven totes les dones de tots els samurais,

as they were all the women of all the samurais,

tots els fills, i la meitat del temps

all the children, and half the time

estaven també

they were also

milers de samurais que venien d'allà,

thousands of samurais that came from there,

això també feia que

this also made that

el nivell de vida d'aquelles famílies a Edo

the standard of living of those families in Edo

fos molt alt per aparentar.

he was very tall to appear.

Era com que es vegi que jo soc la dona de tal

It was as if to show that I am the woman of such.

Daimyo, i aquest Daimyo és més important que el malparit

Daimyo, and this Daimyo is more important than the bastard.

del meu veí, no? O sigui, la seva batalla

from my neighbor, right? I mean, his battle

era una mica més... Sí, sí, sí. I gastaven molts diners

It was a bit more... Yes, yes, yes. And they spent a lot of money.

en temes de teatre, roba, aquest tipus de coses,

in terms of theater, clothing, this kind of thing,

no?, fins al punt de que molts Daimyo

no?, to the point that many Daimyo

van, a final de mes, així, no? Perquè entre la comitiva,

They go, at the end of the month, right? Because among the entourage,

mantenir el ritme de vida de la seva dona

maintain his wife's lifestyle

i els seus fills gastant a Edo, i ells

and their children spending in Edo, and they

quan anaven, també, doncs allò va tenir també

when they went, also, then that also had

moltes repercussions. Què més?

many repercussions. What else?

Va fer que el Japó tingués un sistema de camins,

It caused Japan to have a system of roads,

de carreteres i de

of roads and of

àrees de servei

service areas

a les carreteres al·lucinant. Que això va

to the amazing roads. That this goes

fer que després, el 1870,

make that later, in 1870,

quan van començar a implementar el ferrocarril,

when they began to implement the railway,

ho fessin superràpid.

they would do it super fast.

Per què? Perquè els camins, els ponts...

Why? Because the paths, the bridges...

Ja estaven fets. Ja estaven fets. Només va ser qüestió

They were already done. They were already done. It was just a matter.

de tirar via pel damunt, no? És a dir, va dir

to throw away on top, right? That is to say, he said

senyal a l'entorn geogràfic,

signal in the geographical environment,

d'acord? Aquest sistema d'estabilitat

Okay? This stability system.

que era vas i tornes...

that you come and go...

I tenir aquest tipus de carreteres,

And having this type of roads,

amb carreteres grans,

with large roads,

on podia circular molta gent, també va fer

Many people could circulate there, it also made.

que el comerç també florís. Era molt fàcil

that the trade also flourished. It was very easy

enviar mercaderies d'Osaka

send goods from Osaka

fins a Edo ràpidament, perquè tenien

up to Edo quickly, because they had

tot un sistema muntat, així que va

a whole system set up, so it went

tenir moltes, moltes repercussions. I a Edo

to have many, many repercussions. And in Edo

també va tenir moltes repercussions, perquè,

it also had many repercussions because,

per exemple, tot el tema de les geixes, del barris

for example, the whole issue of the geishas, of the neighborhoods

de Plaer, etcètera...

of Pleasure, etcetera...

Una ciutat, Edo, amb un milió de persones,

A city, Edo, with one million people,

però que molts d'ells són homes,

but that many of them are men,

homes que han deixat la dona a la província

men who have left the woman in the province

i que estan un any a Edo,

and they spend a year in Edo,

doncs la prostitució i aquest tipus de coses van

so prostitution and this kind of thing go

florir moltíssim, no? Allà no hi havia control.

to bloom a lot, right? There was no control there.

I això va fer també que els barris de prostitució

And this also caused the neighborhoods of prostitution.

no hi anaven només

they didn't only go there

amb allò, sinó que anaven a passar el dia.

with that, but they were going to spend the day.

Doncs, el teatre kabuki,

Well, the kabuki theater,

el tema de les cançons,

the theme of the songs,

la música, les geixes, que al final

the music, the geese, that in the end

no són prostitutes, són... Tocaven

they are not prostitutes, they are... musicians.

música, explicaven històries, etcètera,

music, told stories, etcetera,

també es va popularitzar. És a dir,

it also became popular. That is,

tot aquest sistema de fer que tant

this whole system of doing that so much

gent estigués anant i tornant va tenir

people were going back and forth

moltíssimes, moltíssimes conseqüències

very, very many consequences

a nivells previstos i a nivells

at expected levels and at levels

no previstos, no? Tot el tema de...

unforeseen, right? All the topic of...

Clar, els Tokuawa no sabrien el tema

Of course, the Tokuawa wouldn't know about the topic.

de, mira, fem uns camins genials

Come on, let's take some great paths.

i després quan haguem de posar locomotores

and then when we have to put locomotives

això estarà tirat, no?, lògicament. Així que va haver moltes

This will be easy, right? Logically. So there were many.

conseqüències amb les que ells no

consequences with which they do not

comptaven. Indirectes, ja veig.

they counted. Indirect, I see.

Tenia tot força controlat, eh?, pel que expliques.

I had everything pretty much under control, huh?, from what you describe.

Es tractava de tenir els daimyo's

It was about having the daimyos.

contents, és a dir, mira, no tindreu

contents, that is, look, you will not have

rebelions als vostres territoris,

rebellions in your territories,

no vindrà un grup de pagesos i us fotrà

a group of farmers isn't coming to beat you up

fora del castell i us tallarà el cap, perquè no tenen

out of the castle and it will cut off your head because they do not have

armes, tal i qual, no sé què, ja els tenim molt controlats,

weapons, so and so, I don't know what, we already have them very controlled,

però al mateix temps vosaltres també esteu controlats.

but at the same time you are also being monitored.

Llavors és com

Then it's like

donar-los una bona

give them a good one

vida perquè no vulguin jugar-se-la

life so they don't want to take risks

i al mateix temps, en cas que se la

and at the same time, in case it is

volguessin jugar, també et tinc agafat, et tinc lligat.

if they wanted to play, I also have you caught, I have you tied.

O sigui, quan jo m'enteri que tu estàs a la teva

So, when I find out that you are on your own.

província i has començat a tenir

province and you have started to have

contactes amb altres

contacts with others

per revoltar-te en contra meva, la teva

to rebel against me, your

dona i els teus fills els executo.

I will execute your wife and children.

Llavors era una mica allò del pal

Then it was a bit like that with the stick.

i la pastanaga. I a nivell de drets,

and the carrot. And in terms of rights,

tu has comentat que els

you have commented that the

Tosama, que eren els apastats,

Tosama, they were the ones who were caught.

diguéssim,

let's say,

a nivell de drets, a part de

in terms of rights, apart from

no poder formar part del govern,

not being able to be part of the government,

etcètera, hi havia

etcetera, there was

alguna altra cosa que no tenien de dret

anything else that they did not have by right

comparat amb els Fudai, que eren els col·legis?

compared to the Fudai, what were the colleges?

Hi havia lleis que aplicaven per

There were laws that applied for

tots, però eren bastant més estrictes

everyone, but they were quite a bit stricter

en el cas del Tosama. Doncs el tema, per exemple,

in the case of Tosama. Well, the topic, for example,

qualsevol tipus de matrimoni

any type of marriage

entre les classes més altes,

among the upper classes,

els daimyo, l'havia d'autoritzar

the daimyo had to authorize it

el govern, per exemple,

the government, for example,

per intentar que no,

to try that not,

mitjançant el matrimoni, no es fessin alliances

through marriage, alliances were not formed

entre diferents daimyo

among different daimyo

que poguessin ajudar a revoltar-se contra

that could help to revolt against

el govern i aquest tipus de coses. És a dir,

the government and this kind of thing. That is,

els tenien una mica més, els tenien collats

they had them a bit more, they had them cornered

a tots, perquè no s'acabaven de refiar

to everyone, because they didn't completely trust anymore

del tot de ningú, però els Tosama més.

of no one at all, but the Tosama even more.

I de fet, si mirem després,

And in fact, if we look later,

el 1868, o a partir

in 1868, or from then on

de 1853,

from 1853,

quan torna a haver-hi Gresca, al Japó,

When there is fun again in Japan,

i tornen a haver-hi problemes i guerres

And there are problems and wars again.

i tal,

and such,

hi ha uns quants senyors que acaben

there are a few gentlemen who finish

amb els Tokugawa, quan tot això s'acaba,

with the Tokugawa, when all this ends,

si mirem d'on són aquells senyors

if we look at where those gentlemen are from

que s'han revoltat en contra del govern,

who have revolted against the government,

són de província Tosama. És a dir,

they are from the province of Tosama. That is to say,

aquells, apastats, li han guardat

those, pastured, have kept for him

una mica el greu genoll. El rancor

a little the serious knee. The resentment

estava allà durant 250 anys.

it was there for 250 years.

Això em sona, eh, tot això. Sí, bueno,

This sounds familiar to me, you know, all this. Yes, well,

és la típica, no?, és com els pobles, no?,

It's typical, isn't it? It's like the towns, isn't it?

que al camp no sé què no poden veure els camps

that in the field I don't know what they can't see the fields

no sé quants, perquè fa 250 anys

I don't know how many, because it was 250 years ago.

li va moure les lindes i

he moved the boundaries and

aquest tipus de coses, doncs, una mica portats

this type of things, then, a bit carried away

a un nivell més macro.

at a more macro level.

Comentaves una cosa ara, que era el tema

You just mentioned something that was the topic.

de matrimonis, no?, que és

of marriages, right?, what is it?

molt interessant perquè hi havia l'acord imperial japonesa

very interesting because there was the Japanese imperial agreement

i clar, jo estava pensant

And of course, I was thinking.

a veure, amb Tokugawa

let's see, with Tokugawa

i Ieyasu, tot tu no tenia un

and Ieyasu, you didn't have one at all

pèl. Llavors,

hair. Then,

no sé si, d'alguna

I don't know if, somehow

manera, perquè clar, a tu t'interessa

way, because of course, it interests you

que l'acord imperial estigui content amb tu,

may the imperial agreement be pleased with you,

no?, perquè al final

no?, because in the end

en el fons són els que manen, tot i que

in the end, they are the ones in charge, even though

tu tinguis el poder i manis a nivell executiu.

you have the power and you command at the executive level.

La legitimitat, diguéssim, te la dones

You give yourself legitimacy, let's say.

a ells. I Tokugawa i Ieyasu

to them. And Tokugawa and Ieyasu

va fer alguna cosa, diguéssim, per

he did something, let's say, for

no sé, aproximar-se a l'acord imperial

I don't know, approaching the imperial agreement.

o establir-hi relacions?

or establish relationships there?

Va copiar un

He/She copied a.

model que s'ha fet al Japó

model made in Japan

des del principi mateix de la casa imperial

from the very beginning of the imperial house

que és vincular-te matrimonialment

what it means to be married to you

amb la casa imperial.

with the imperial house.

És a dir,

That is to say,

tu tens una de les teves filles,

you have one of your daughters,

la cases amb el fill

you marry with the child

de l'emperador, no?

of the emperor, right?

Això què fa? Doncs que el següent

What does this do? Well, the following.

emperador, o sigui, quan aquell fill de l'emperador sigui

emperor, that is, when that son of the emperor is

l'emperador,

the emperor,

l'emperadriu, encara que és consort,

the empress, although she is consort,

doncs és dels teus, i sobretot

well, it’s yours, and above all

quan tinguin un fill, aquell fill

when they have a child, that child

els matrimonis a aquest nivell,

marriages at this level,

no?, de samurais i sobretot de

no?, of samurais and especially of

cortesans, els matrimonis no viuen

courtesans, marriages do not live

junts a la mateixa casa. Els fills

together in the same house. The children

viuen amb la mare i la mare, normalment, viu

they live with the mother and the mother usually lives

amb la seva família paterna, no?

with his paternal family, right?

Amb la qual cosa,

With which,

aquell net, és a dir, aquella tercera

that grandson, that is to say, that third one

generació, ja no només és fill

generation, is no longer just a son

d'una mare Tokugawa, sinó

of a Tokugawa mother, but

que es cria amb els Tokugawa.

that grows up with the Tokugawa.

Amb la qual cosa,

With which,

quan ell arribi a ser emperador,

when he becomes emperor,

el seu referent, no?, com a cap de família,

his reference, right?, as the head of the family,

no serà el seu

it will not be yours

pare emperador i el seu avi emperador,

father emperor and his emperor grandfather,

sinó que serà el seu avi Tokugawa,

but rather it will be his grandfather Tokugawa,

perquè és amb els que ha viscut des de petit.

because it is with those he has lived with since he was little.

Això és una, ja et dic, això ho havien

This is one, I tell you, they had this.

fet els Soga, al principi

made the rope, at the beginning

de tot de la Casa Imperial, després ho van fer els Fujiwara,

of the entire Imperial House, then the Fujiwara did it,

és a dir, és una estratègia completament

that is to say, it is a completely strategy

habitual, i ell va fer una mica el mateix.

usual, and he did a bit of the same.

Però en comptes de ser una família cortesana,

But instead of being a courtly family,

va ser una família... I per altra banda,

it was a family... And on the other hand,

doncs, va fer que l'acord,

so, it made the agreement,

visqués bé, això ja ho va fer

he lived well, he already did that

Toyotomi Hideyoshi, és a dir, l'acord

Toyotomi Hideyoshi, that is, the agreement

va passar uns segles durant tot aquest temps

It passed a few centuries during all this time.

de guerres i tal, amb el que

of wars and such, with what

financerament estaven tocadíssims, no?

They were really struggling financially, weren't they?

Llavors el que van fer els Tokugawa

Then what the Tokugawa did

és, vale, no, a partir d'ara no els hi faltarà

Yes, okay, no, from now on they won't lack anything.

de re, tampoc viuran amb uns luxes

In truth, they won't live in luxury either.

desmesurats com a l'antiguitat,

excessive as in antiquity,

però els tindrem contents, i els

but we will keep them happy, and the

cortesans igual. I al final l'acord,

courtesans the same. And in the end the agreement,

doncs, si ells no s'encarreguen

well, if they don't take care of it

de governar, però tenen

of governing, but they have

diners i poden dedicar-se a fer els seus

money and they can dedicate themselves to doing their own

concursos de poesia i les seves

poetry contests and their

coses, doncs, doncs més igual, no?

things, well, well more or less, right?

Millor, millor, no m'he de preocupar per coses

Better, better, I shouldn't worry about things.

administratives i tal.

administrative and so on.

Mantenir l'estabilitat. Correcte.

Maintain stability. Correct.

Perquè al final, qui mana? Mana el Shogun,

Because in the end, who rules? The Shogun rules,

està clar. Però el Shogun està

It's clear. But the Shogun is

investit per l'emperador, i l'emperador

invested by the emperor, and the emperor

és el que es suposa que ve dels déus,

it is what is supposed to come from the gods,

etcètera, és el que té la legitimitat divina,

etcetera, is that which has divine legitimacy,

no? Allò de, no sé què, per la gràcia de

no? That thing about, I don't know what, for the sake of

Dios, doncs ve a ser una mica el mateix. El Shogun

God, then it's a bit the same. The Shogun.

no és Shogun, per la gràcia de Dios. El Shogun

It's not Shogun, for the grace of God. The Shogun.

és Shogun per la gràcia de l'emperador. Llavors,

he is Shogun by the grace of the emperor. Then,

en algun moment de la història hi ha hagut

at some point in history there has been

un emperador que ha gosat

an emperor who has dared

anar en contra del Shogun. Doncs aquest

to go against the Shogun. Well, this

emperador ha anat fora.

The emperor has gone outside.

L'han fet abdicar o ha tingut un accident.

They have made him abdicate or he has had an accident.

És a dir, qui mana de veritat és el Shogun, està claríssim.

That is to say, the one who truly rules is the Shogun, it is very clear.

Però el Shogun necessita

But the Shogun needs

al mateix temps la legitimitat de l'emperador.

at the same time the legitimacy of the emperor.

Segons el teu llibre, tinc entès també que

According to your book, I also understand that

Tokugawa

Tokugawa

va dissenyar un edict, un mandat,

he designed an edict, a mandate,

amb 13 articles

with 13 articles

que regulaven els aspectes

that regulated the aspects

d'aquesta vida dels samurais. Perquè, clar, recordem

of this life of the samurai. Because, of course, let's remember

que feia un moment comentava que els samurais,

I was just commenting that the samurais,

clar, ja no lluitaven, no estaven en

of course, they no longer fought, they were not in

batalles, no? Aquests

battles, right? These

13 articles que regulaven els aspectes

13 articles that regulated the aspects

de la vida dels samurais, en què consistien

of the life of the samurais, what it consisted of

exactament? Doncs mira, els tinc aquí perquè no me'ls sé

Exactly? Well, look, I have them here because I don't remember them.

de memòria. Hi ha alguns que són com molt

from memory. There are some that are like very

innocents, molt tontos, que

innocents, very foolish, that

diries com... Què passa?

you would say like... What's happening?

Perquè, per exemple, hi ha un que diu, el número 11,

Because, for example, there is one that says, number 11,

les persones comunes no hauran de ser portades

ordinary people will not have to be carried

en palanquí. Què vol dir això?

in a palanquin. What does that mean?

El palanquí és amb el que viatjaven els daimyo

The palanquin is what the daimyo traveled with.

i tal, que és una espècie de, com

and so on, it's a kind of, like

una caixa, amb uns mànecs

a box, with some handles

i la porten entre 4 persones, una mica

And they carry it between four people, a little.

com si portessin un taüt o portessin un

as if they were carrying a coffin or carrying one

pas de Setmana Santa,

Holy Week step,

però allà ficat hi anava algú, no? A la sèrie

But someone was going in there, right? In the series.

de Shogun surten alguns.

Some come out of Shogun.

Doncs bé, hi havia una d'aquestes 13 normes, una

Well, there was one of these 13 rules, one

és per dir que allò és només pels samurais.

It is to say that that is only for samurais.

És a dir, aquesta norma és com molt tonta.

That is to say, this rule is quite silly.

Però després tenim algunes importants. La número 3

But then we have some important ones. Number 3.

diu, els feus, els dominis, no hauran

says, the feuds, the domains, will not have

de donar refugi a fugitius

to give refuge to fugitives

i proscrits. No? Doncs allò també és una

and the outlaws. No? Well, that is also a

forma de control. Els daimyo no mantindran relacions

form of control. The daimyo will not maintain relationships.

socials amb gent d'altres feus, siguin

socials with people from other fields, be they

de la classe samurai o no. És com per

from the class samurai or not. It's like for

intentar que no estableixin alliances.

try to ensure they don’t establish alliances.

Alliances matrimonials, vols dir, o...?

Marriage alliances, you mean, or...?

O fins i tot relació, en

Or even relationship, in

general, no? D'establir... Però no parleu

General, right? To establish... But you don't speak.

gaire, no? Sí, sí, sí. Quedeu-vos en el vostre micro

Just a little, right? Yes, yes, yes. Stay in your own little world.

molt. I parleu amb nosaltres.

Very. And you speak with us.

Després, una molt important. La gestació

Afterward, a very important one. The gestation.

de revoltes o conspiracions en dominis

of revolts or conspiracies in dominions

veïns hauran de ser comunicades

neighbors will have to be notified

al govern immediatament. Així

to the government immediately. Thus

com l'ampliació de defenses, fortificacions

with the expansion of defenses, fortifications

o forces militars. És a dir,

or military forces. That is,

no només els daimyo no poden fer aquestes

not only the daimyo cannot do these

coses, que us estic dient en el reste d'articles,

things that I am telling you in the rest of the articles,

és que si tu t'enteres que el teu veí

it's that if you find out that your neighbor

les està fent,

she is doing them,

està ampliant el castell, està ampliant les defenses,

he is expanding the castle, he is expanding the defenses,

ui, ampliar les defenses,

oh, strengthen the defenses,

alguna cosa prepara, no? O aquest tipus de coses,

Are you preparing something, right? Or this kind of thing?

doncs, ens ho has de dir. És a dir, converteix

Well, you have to tell us. That is to say, convert.

a tots els daimyo del país en una espècie

to all the daimyo of the country in a kind of

d'espies... Vigila a tu, vecino.

Of spies... Watch out for you, neighbor.

Exacte, de vieja del vicillo, d'estar allà

Exactly, from the old woman of the corner, being there.

a la guaita, què fa, i

at the lookout, what is it doing, and

ens ho diu. Si nosaltres no ens entenem pels nostres

he tells us. If we do not understand each other for our own

mitjans, si tu t'enteres abans que nosaltres,

means, if you find out before we do,

ens ho has de dir. I si no, i si

you have to tell us. And if not, and if

ens entenem que ho sabies i no ens ho has dit...

we understand that you knew it and you didn't tell us...

Serà pitjor. Doncs el càstig que li puguem aplicar

It will be worse. Because of the punishment we can apply to him.

al teu veí, també et vindrà

your neighbor will also come to you

a tu. I...

to you. I...

Quines coses més? Doncs, per exemple, tenim una

What else? Well, for example, we have a

que diu, els daimyo hauran de presentar-se a Edo

It says that the daimyo will have to present themselves in Edo.

per salvar el Bakufu.

to save the Bakufu.

El 1615, quan es va establir aquest codi, només

In 1615, when this code was established, only

deia això. Però 20 anys després, quan aquest

said this. But 20 years later, when this

codi es va ampliar, aquí és

the code was expanded, here it is

on es va crear

where it was created

aquest sistema, diguem, del Sankinkotai, això

this system, let's say, of the Sankinkotai, this

que haguessin de tenir casa i haguessin de passar

that they should have a home and have to go through

temporades allà, etc.

seasons there, etc.

Perquè entenguem el Bakufu, que segurament no tothom

So that we understand the Bakufu, which surely not everyone does.

sap què vol dir. Sí, el Bakufu és el Shogunat.

He knows what it means. Yes, the Bakufu is the Shogunate.

El que passa és que en castellà i en català

What happens is that in Spanish and in Catalan

diem, com és el Shogun, diem

we say, how is the Shogun, we say

Shogunat, però en japonès no existeix

Shogunate, but it doesn't exist in Japanese.

aquesta paraula. Shogun sí, però

this word. Shogun yes, but

no dona peu a

does not give rise to

Shogunat, i ells parlen de Bakufu.

Shogunate, and they talk about Bakufu.

Bakufu ve de dues

Bakufu comes from two

paraules. Maku, i

words. Maku, and

fu és govern, i maku

fu is government, and maku

és quan veiem les típiques pel·lis de samurais,

it's when we see the typical samurai movies,

veiem que els samurais estan allà lluitant al camp de

we see that the samurais are there fighting in the field of

batalla, però que el general, no?, Kimana,

battle, but the general, right?, Kimana,

no està al camp de batalla.

he is not on the battlefield.

Fa molts segles sí que hi era, però després va deixar

Many centuries ago it did exist, but then it left.

de ser. Van ser més gestos. Està,

to be. There were more gestures. It is,

novament, allà damunt d'un turó,

again, up there on a hill,

allà assegut, i va dirigint, i

there seated, and directing, and

està com envoltat com una espècie de

it's like surrounded by a sort of

tenda de campanya, sense sostre,

tent, without a roof,

així com un tancat.

just as a closed one.

Allò es diu maku. Llavors

That is called maku. Then

Bakufu vol dir el govern des de la

Bakufu means the government from the

maku. És com per deixar clar que és un govern

Maku. It's as if to make it clear that it is a government.

militar. És el govern que estableix algú

military. It is the government that establishes someone.

que és un general. Llavors és com

what a general is. Then it's like

se li diu en japonès el Shogunat.

It is called the Shogunate in Japanese.

Llavors moltes vegades el llibre, etc.,

Then many times the book, etc.,

per no estar repetint tota

to avoid repeating everything

l'estona Shogunat, doncs també

the time of the Shogunate, therefore also

utilitzes bakufu, no? El primer

You use bakufu, right? The first one.

cop ho expliques i ja està. I aquest article

Just explain it to me and that's it. And this article.

bàsicament deia el que ja ens has dit abans, no?, que era

basically it said what you already told us before, right?, that it was

anar i tornar entre el territori

to go and return within the territory

i la capital. Correcte, correcte. Tot aquest sistema

and the capital. Correct, correct. All this system

que ja diem que és un dels més importants. De fet,

that we already say is one of the most important. In fact,

quan el 1868

when in 1868

va haver hiat la següent guerra en la que va caure

there was the next war in which he fell

el govern,

the government,

un fet important va ser que

an important fact was that

al govern va haver un moment que va haver de decretar

the government had a moment where it had to decree

que el Sankinkotai s'havia acabat.

that the Sankinkotai was over.

Una mica per contentar els...

A bit to please the...

Això, per qui no ho sàpiga,

This, for those who do not know,

era el tancament, no? Sí.

It was the closure, right? Yes.

De fronteres, no?, que van estar tancats

About borders, right?, that were closed.

no sé si 250 anys, més o menys. Sí, més o menys, sí.

I don't know if 250 years, more or less. Yes, more or less, yes.

200 i alguna anys, fins al

200 and some years, until the

1853, que van aparèixer per allà als Estats Units,

1853, which appeared over there in the United States,

ja en un context, no?, de

already in a context, right?, of

colonialisme, és a dir, ja han passat totes les

colonialism, that is to say, all the have already passed

guerres de l'opi entre els britànics i els xinesos,

Opium wars between the British and the Chinese.

el món

the world

occidental vol omplir mercats perquè

the West wants to fill markets because

amb la revolució industrial fabrica coses

with the industrial revolution it produces things

i vol que la gent les compri,

and I want people to buy them,

llavors obrir mercats com la Xina o com el Japó

then open markets like China or Japan

és molt interessant, i allò de

it's very interesting, and that about

tenir un país allà amb un munt de milions de persones

to have a country there with millions of people

tancat i que no volen saber de la resta del món,

closed off and do not want to know about the rest of the world,

doncs no els hi sembla bé, i llavors

well, they don't think it's good, and then

apareixen allà als Estats Units amb

they appear there in the United States with

quatre vaixells de guerra, de vapor,

four steam warships,

amb canons, i els diuen

with cannons, and they call them

nanos, o us obriu o us obrim, no?

Kids, you either open yourselves or we open you, right?

I clar, el Japó, com que a través

And of course, Japan, as through

de Dejima, ja ho hem dit abans, no?, aquest

From Dejima, we've said it before, right? This

contacte amb els holandesos, en part, ells

contact with the Dutch, in part, them

no el tenen tant, els japonesos, pel tema del comerç.

The Japanese don't value it as much when it comes to trade.

Un vaixell a l'any

One ship a year.

tampoc és un comerç

it's not a shop either

gaire significatiu, però aquells

not very significant, but those

holandesos que venen cada any, una de

Dutch people who come every year, one of

les coses que han de fer és, igual que els Daimyo,

the things they have to do are, just like the Daimyo,

han d'anar a Edo, i allà s'han

They have to go to Edo, and there they have

entrevistat amb oficials del

interviewed with officials from the

shogunat, i els expliquen

shogunate, and they explain to them

què està passant al món. Llavors,

what is happening in the world. Then,

al Japó, quan apareixen per allà els occidentals

in Japan, when the Westerners appear there

amb els vaixells de guerra, 1853,

with the warships, 1853,

ells saben perfectament el que han fet

They know perfectly well what they have done.

aquells vaixells de guerra, dels britànics,

those warships, of the British,

però desigual, aquells vaixells de guerra a la Xina,

but unequal, those warships in China,

deu anys o quinze anys abans, ells saben

ten years or fifteen years before, they know

el que ha passat, no? Llavors és com, vale,

what has happened, right? So it's like, okay,

ja tenim aquí el problema. Els xinesos

Here comes the problem. The Chinese.

han intentat resistir,

they have tried to resist,

i els han passat per sobre. El que va fer

and they have run them over. What he did

Anglaterra amb la Xina,

England with China,

en aquella època,

at that time,

és al·lucinant.

It’s amazing.

Als xinesos els ha passat això.

This has happened to the Chinese.

Potser haurien de triar, de provar

Maybe they should choose, to try.

una altra cosa diferent, no? Llavors el Japó el que fa

something different, right? Then what Japan does

és, vale, s'està jugant una partida

Yes, okay, a game is being played.

aquí, a nivell mundial, de ser

here, on a global level, of being

modern, i ser modern consisteix

modern, and being modern consists of

allò que ens diuen els valors

what values tell us

de la il·lustració, no? Industrialització,

of the Enlightenment, right? Industrialization,

mercat,

market

govern parlamentari,

parliamentary government,

llibertat de premsa,

freedom of the press,

llibertat de religió, tot aquest tipus de coses,

freedom of religion, all this kind of things,

doncs ells van ser, bueno, doncs anem a

well, they were, well, let's go to

implementar-ho. I això acabaria tenint

implement it. And this would ultimately have

seqüències doncs molt grans, perquè arriba

sequences then very large, because it arrives

un moment en què el Japó,

a moment in which Japan,

amb ells, les potències occidentals,

with them, the Western powers,

els hi

to them

posen uns tractats desiguals,

they impose unequal treaties,

amb els que el Japó surt perdent, els típics

with those that Japan loses, the typical ones

tractats que havien fet a la Xina i a gran part

treaties that had been made in China and in a large part

del món, no diguem ja a Àfrica,

from the world, not to mention Africa,

i llavors el Japó, un cop que

and then Japan, once that

ja es modernitza i ho té tot igual que ells,

it is already modernized and has everything just like them,

és com, vale, ja soc un de vosaltres, traieu-me

it's like, okay, I'm one of you now, get me out.

aquests tractes, no? I al final ho acaben fent,

these deals, right? And in the end, they end up doing it,

però el Japó se n'adona d'una cosa, hi ha un moment que

but Japan realizes one thing, there comes a moment when

diuen, però si ja som com ells, i encara no

they say, but if we are already like them, and not yet

ens tracten com ells. Ho hem fet tot. Què passa?

They treat us like they do. We have done everything. What's happening?

Tenim carreteres, tenim no sé què, què ens

We have roads, we have I don't know what, what to us

falta? Ai, espera, tots ells tenen colònies.

Missing? Oh, wait, they all have colonies.

Tots ells són imperis.

They are all empires.

I és quan el Japó comença,

And this is when Japan begins,

conquereix Hokkaido, que avui en dia és tan Japó

conquer Hokkaido, which nowadays is so Japan

com Tòquio, conquereix

like Tokyo, conquer

les Ryukyu, Okinawa i companyia,

the Ryukyu, Okinawa and company,

que també és tan japones com Tòquio,

that is also as Japanese as Tokyo,

però conquereix moltes altres coses que avui en dia

but conquers many other things that nowadays

ja no són Japó, no? I és quan

They're no longer Japan, right? And when is it?

s'anacciona Corea, i això

Korea is being sanctioned, and this

ens porta al final fins a la Segona Guerra Mundial.

it takes us to the end up to World War II.

Que sempre que explico això he d'insistir

That whenever I explain this I have to insist.

molt amb el fet

very much with the fact

que no estic justificant, ni molt menys,

that I am not justifying, far from it,

tot el que va fer el Japó la Segona Guerra Mundial,

everything Japan did during World War II,

però sí que hi va haver molts moments

but there were indeed many moments

en què el Japó va haver de triar.

in what Japan had to choose.

I el van obligar a triar.

And they forced him to choose.

Va triar malament? Des del meu punt de vista, sí.

Did he choose poorly? From my point of view, yes.

Però el van obligar a triar. És a dir, ells van ser

But they forced him to choose. That is to say, they were

com, o trepitgem

how, or we tread

o ens trepitgen. I ells van decidir

or they trample us. And they decided

trepitjar, i a més van trepitjar amb molta

to tread, and moreover they treaded very hard

més força, podríem dir.

more strength, we could say.

I tornant als 13 articles de Tokugawa,

Returning to the 13 articles of Tokugawa,

hi havia

there was

algun més que et cridés l'atenció

Anything else that caught your attention?

que diguessis, aquest

that you said, this

potser també era interessant?

perhaps it was also interesting?

No, més o menys

No, more or less.

aquests són els més...

these are the most...

Els matrimonis entre Daimyo i persones

Marriages between Daimyo and people

poderoses o de rellevància no hauran de ser organitzats

powerful or relevant ones will not need to be organized

de manera privada. És més o menys el que hem anat

privately. It's more or less what we've been going through.

dient. És un control total de relacions

saying. It is a total control of relationships.

socials entre famílies

socials among families

de samurais i territoris. Però al final tot està enfocat

of samurais and territories. But in the end, everything is focused

a intentar que res es mogui.

to try to make sure nothing moves.

Intentar que qualsevol canvi

Try to make any change.

l'he de supervisar jo, tu no

I have to supervise it, you don't.

pots fer res. Tot aquest tipus de coses són

you can do nothing. All these kinds of things are

les que estaven més controlades. Això lògicament

the ones that were more controlled. This logically

es va anar relaxant una miqueta. A partir

it started to relax a little bit. From

sobretot de 1720, que hi va haver

especially from 1720, when there was

un canvi de Shogun amb

a change of Shogun with

el VIII, Yoshimune,

the VIII, Yoshimune,

va implementar ja com alguns

It was implemented as some already did.

canvis de dir, bueno, ha passat

changes of saying, well, it has happened

ja més d'un segle, no passa res,

for more than a century, nothing happens,

anem a relaxar-nos una miqueta.

Let’s relax a little bit.

I, per exemple, va permetre que a Dejima

And, for example, it allowed that in Dejima.

els holandessos poguessin començar amb llibres.

the Dutch could start with books.

Bíblies, no. Tot el que és

Bibles, no. Everything that is.

bíblia continuava estant prohibit.

The Bible remained banned.

Llibres que no bíblies?

Books that are not Bibles?

Conneixements. Van entrar en aquell

Knowledge. They entered that.

moment molts llibres de medicina, d'anatomia, etc.

moment many medical books, anatomy, etc.

Per què? Perquè a la base de Dejima hi havia

Why? Because at the base of Dejima there was

un metge, lògicament, i aquell metge

a doctor, logically, and that doctor

estava amb els seus manuals d'anatomia, etc.

he was with his anatomy manuals, etc.

Llavors va començar, els llibres van poder

Then it began, the books were able to

ser intercanviats o venuts,

to be exchanged or sold,

i és quan al Japó va començar a entrar, per exemple,

and it is when it started to enter Japan, for example,

la medicina moderna. Fins i tot avui en dia

modern medicine. Even today

la majoria de termes

the majority of terms

mèdics en japonès

doctors in Japanese

són unes paraules molt rares, que no

they are very rare words, which do not

semblen gaire japoneses, perquè

they don't seem very Japanese, because

són transcripcions al japonès

they are transcriptions in Japanese

de l'alemany. Perquè la majoria,

from German. Because the majority,

els metges holandesos, la majoria

the Dutch doctors, the majority

de manuals que tenien d'anatomia, etc.,

of manuals that dealt with anatomy, etc.,

eren alemanys,

they were Germans,

i llavors els japonesos van transcriure una mica

And then the Japanese transcribed a bit.

i no se m'acudeixen

and I can't think of any

dos idiomes amb una fonètica més

two languages with a more phonetic structure

diferent que l'alemany i el japonès.

different from German and Japanese.

Llavors van adaptar aquest tipus de paraules.

Then they adapted this type of words.

Van començar a entrar una sèrie de

They began to enter a series of

coneixements que va donar lloc a uns

knowledge that led to some

estudis, que eren els rangaku,

studies, which were the rangaku,

que són els estudis holandesos. Hi havia gent

What are Dutch studies? There were people.

que es dedicava a anar a una escola i estudiar

who was dedicated to going to school and studying

holandès, que ells pensaven, durant dos

Dutch, as they thought, during two

segles van pensar que era l'idioma

Centuries thought it was the language.

una mica d'occident, no?

a little bit of the west, right?

Holandès, temes de medicina,

Dutch, medical themes,

temes d'artilleria

artillery topics

i armament, etc. Així que va

and weapons, etc. So it goes

desenvolupar aquest contacte, no?

develop this contact, right?

I al mateix temps a Europa també van arribar

And at the same time, Europe also received.

moltes coses, molts coneixements

many things, many knowledge

japonesos. Es van saber aquí

Japanese. They were known here.

temes d'acupuntura, es van conèixer els bonsais,

acupuncture topics, they got to know bonsais,

es van conèixer la història dels 47 Ronin,

they learned the story of the 47 Ronin,

i moltes plantes

and many plants

i molts arbres que tenim avui en dia

and many trees that we have nowadays

a Europa, si mires el seu nom

to Europe, if you look at its name

científic, no?, et trobes

scientist, right?, are you ok?

que es diuen, el típic nom aquell en llatí

what they call, that typical name in Latin

que tenen les plantes i els animals, no?

What plants and animals have, right?

Doncs hi ha moltíssimes plantes que tenim aquí que es diuen

Well, there are many plants that we have here that are called

el que sigui japònica.

whatever is Japanese.

I tu diries, però si aquest arbre l'he vist jo al

And you would say, but if I have seen this tree at the

poble del meu pare des de fa, bueno,

village of my father for, well,

però en algun moment, entre principis

but at some point, between beginnings

del segle XVII i mitjans del XIX,

from the 17th century to the mid-19th century,

algun d'aquests metges holandesos,

some of these Dutch doctors,

perquè la majoria eren també aficionats

because the majority were also enthusiasts

a la botànica, a la fauna, etc.,

to botany, to fauna, etc.,

doncs molts es van portar llavors,

so many were brought then,

clar, era fàcil, no?,

Sure, it was easy, wasn't it?

és un contraband bastant fàcil, no?, portar-te llavors

It's a pretty easy smuggling, isn't it?, to bring you then.

de flors a les butxaques o a les maletes

from flowers to pockets or to suitcases

on fos, i van introduir molts

where it was, and they introduced many

d'aquestes flors, d'aquests arbres,

of these flowers, of these trees,

els van introduir a Europa, a través d'Holanda, i des d'allà

they were introduced to Europe through Holland, and from there

es van disseminar, i potser arbres

they spread out, and perhaps trees

que tenim des de fa 200 anys,

that we have had for 200 years,

que ens semblen molt d'aquí, si mirem

they seem very close to us here, if we look

el seu nom científic, jo em vaig adonar mirant

his scientific name, I realized while looking

el Bricomanía,

the Bricomanía,

el Bricomanía quan tenia la secció aquella

the Bricomanía when it had that section

de plantes, no?,

About plants, right?

i l'Íñigo aquell sempre...

and that Íñigo always...

ell sempre deia el nom, no?,

he always said the name, right?

vamos a poner el sustrato,

let's put the substrate,

que li posava sustrato a tot, vamos a poner el sustrato,

that he was putting substrate on everything, let's put the substrate,

no sé què, a esta, i llavors deia

I don't know what, to this, and then I said.

el nom de la flor, i llavors deia el nom científic,

the name of the flower, and then it said the scientific name,

no?, i era com, no era japònica, i era com, ostres, tio,

No? And it was like, it wasn’t Japanese, and it was like, wow, dude,

la meitat de coses que parles són japònica,

Half of the things you talk about are Japanese.

i temps després vaig saber, no?, que venia d'aquí,

And some time later I found out, right?, that it came from here,

de Degima.

from Degima.

Tornant al marc ideològic de Tokugawa,

Returning to the ideological framework of Tokugawa,

al principi començaves a...

at first you started to...

comentaves neoconfusionisme, no?,

You were commenting on neoconfucianism, weren't you?

que, a veure, a mi em corratgeixes, no?,

That, let's see, you encourage me, right?

però tinc entès que aquesta ideologia és...

but I understand that this ideology is...

ara em vindré molt, molt amunt, eh?, però

Now I will come very, very high, huh?, but

tu em corratgeixes. Per resumir-la molt, molt, molt,

you get on my nerves. To summarize it very, very, very,

seria aquella ideologia que diu que

it would be that ideology that says that

una persona simplement ha d'acceptar

a person simply has to accept

el lloc que li ha tocat dins la societat, no?,

the place that has been assigned to him in society, right?

és a dir, que si t'ha tocat pagès, doncs tota

that is to say, if you’ve got a peasant, then it’s all

la vida seràs pagès. Si ets fill d'un artesà, doncs

life you will be a farmer. If you are the child of a craftsman, then

tota la vida artesà. Com va influir

A lifetime of craftsmanship. How did it influence?

aquest tipus de pensament en les polítiques

this type of thinking in policies

i pràctiques socials de Tokugawa?

And social practices of Tokugawa?

Bueno, primer és que els Tokugawa

Well, first is that the Tokugawa

van veure que aquest tipus d'ideologia

they saw that this type of ideology

a ells els hi anava de conya. És a dir, una ideologia

they were having a great time. That is to say, an ideology

que diu que si tu ets

that says that if you are

pobre, doncs és perquè t'ha tocat

Poor, well it's because it has happened to you.

i no has d'intentar deixar de ser-ho,

and you don't have to try to stop being it,

doncs lògicament per qui mana.

so logically for those in power.

Ah, bueno, jo és que no tinc més remei que manar, no?, perquè

Ah, well, I just have no choice but to command, right?, because

he nascut fill de Tokugawa, llavors què he de fer, no?

I was born the son of Tokugawa, so what should I do, right?

Ells... i a més es suposa que és un

They... and besides, it's supposed to be a

ordre natural, no és un ordre social

natural order, it is not a social order

construït, sinó... és com si...

built, but... it's as if...

Ah, és que a mi no m'agrada. Bueno, és com si no t'agradés...

Ah, it's just that I don't like it. Well, it's like if you didn't like...

Les coses són així. Clar, és com si no t'agradés la llei

Things are like that. Of course, it's as if you didn't like the law.

de la gravetat. O sigui, pot no agradar-te, però...

of gravity. In other words, you may not like it, but...

És així. És impapinable, no? Doncs la idea

It is so. It’s unpalatable, isn’t it? Well, the idea

era una mica vendre una mica tot aquest

it was a bit to sell a bit of all this

tot aquest sistema. I per això ho van

all this system. And that's why they went

potenciar, i per això els

empower, and for this reason the

neoconfucians, els intel·lectuals neoconfucians,

neoconfucians, the neoconfucian intellectuals,

com que al mateix temps ells

as they at the same time

estaven molt ben tractats pel govern, doncs

they were very well treated by the government, then

també anaven

they also went

investigant i anaven escrivint en funció

investigating and were writing according to

d'allò, no? Quan la gent va començar a

of that, right? When people started to

dir, en èpoques d'embrunes, per exemple,

to say, in times of drizzle, for example,

la gent va començar a dir, ostres, i

people started to say, wow, and

per què m'he de morir jo de gana mentre

why do I have to die of hunger while

els samurais estan anant al teatre i estan cobrant,

the samurais are going to the theater and are getting paid,

no? Si, a més, no se suposa

No? Yes, moreover, it is not supposed to.

que cadascú ha de tenir el paper que li toca a la societat,

that each person must have the role that belongs to them in society,

doncs els guerrers quin paper

so what role do the warriors have

tenen si no hi ha guerres? Doncs llavors va ser

do they have if there are no wars? Well then it was

quan tota la intel·lectualitat

when all the intellect

neoconfuciana va dissenyar tot el tema

neoconfucianism designed the whole theme

de que, no, no, els samurais ara mateix el seu paper

that, no, no, the samurais right now their role

no és les guerres perquè no n'hi han. El seu

It is not the wars because there are none. Their

paper és ser un model de virtuts

the role is to be a model of virtues

neoconfucianes pel resta de la societat.

neoconfucians for the rest of society.

I han de ser lleials, i han de ser obedients,

They must be loyal, and they must be obedient,

i fixeu-vos en ells, no? Aquest tipus d'obediència,

and look at them, right? This kind of obedience,

que és una altra cosa que té el neoconfucianisme.

which is another thing that Neoconfucianism has.

Si ets una dona, li has de tenir

If you are a woman, you have to have it.

obediència primer al teu pare, després al teu marit

obedience first to your father, then to your husband

i després als teus fills. Si ets un súbdit,

and then to your children. If you are a subject,

li has de tenir obediència, doncs al teu

You must have obedience, for to your

daimyo, etcètera. És aquest tipus de

daimyo, etcetera. It is this type of

lleialtat. Clar, perquè

loyalty. Of course, because

tinc entès que els samurais

I understand that the samurais

al final van desenvolupar una cultura centrada

in the end they developed a centered culture

en la filosofia, el saber clàssic, perquè

in philosophy, classical knowledge, because

clar, no lluitaven, no? Llavors,

Sure, they weren't fighting, right? Then,

com incorporant els valors

how to incorporate the values

militars en el que va donar com a resultat

military in what resulted

el que s'anomena Bushido, pot ser?

What is called Bushido, can it be?

Correcte, sí. Aquest famós codi

Correct, yes. This famous code.

de l'honor samurai, que es suposa que

of the samurai honor, which is supposed to

és mil·lenari, etcètera, doncs no. Aquest codi

it's millennial, etcetera, so no. This code

se'l van inventar mitges entre

they invented half measures among

els intel·lectuals neoconfucians

the neoconfucian intellectuals

i els samurais d'aquella època

and the samurais of that time

en què no hi havia guerres. És a dir, els

in which there were no wars. That is, the

samurais de 500

samurais of 500

anys abans, que estaven al camp de batalla lluitant,

years ago, when they were in the battlefield fighting,

aquells ni codi de l'honor... De Bushido, res.

those neither code of honor... Of Bushido, nothing.

Aquí a matar i a tallar caps.

Here to kill and behead.

I sobretot que em comptin els caps que he tallat

And especially that they count the heads I've cut off.

per cobrar diners.

to collect money.

I les guerres són per conquerir més terribles

And the wars are to conquer more terrible ones.

per tenir més territori i poder

to have more territory and power

cobrar més impostos, o

collect more taxes, or

per defensar-te del daimyo

to defend yourself from the daimyo

veí que vol conquerir el teu. Allà no hi havia

neighbor who wants to conquer yours. There was no one there.

ni ètica ni hi havia res. Sempre ho dic,

neither ethics nor anything else. I always say it,

el més semblant o l'única cosa semblant

the most similar or the only similar thing

que coneixien aquells samurais,

that those samurais knew,

semblant a l'honor, era la reputació.

Similar to honor, it was reputation.

Però la reputació i l'honor són diferents. La reputació

But reputation and honor are different. Reputation

ja se'n tenia com victòries en batalles.

It was already considered as victories in battles.

No com havies

Not like you had.

aconseguit aquella victòria. Sempre

achieved that victory. Always

poso un símil que no m'agrada

I put a simile that I don't like.

perquè és un símil futbolero i jo no soc

because it's a football analogy and I'm not

gens futbolero, però era una

not very into football, but it was a

forma de pensar resultadista. L'important

result-oriented way of thinking. The important

és que hem guanyat el partit. Hòstia, sí, però l'heu guanyat

It's just that we won the match. Damn, yes, but you won it.

al darrer minut amb un penalti que no era

in the last minute with a penalty that wasn't

i al xutar

and when kicking

t'has mig caigut, hi ha tocat el poste

You almost fell, you hit the post.

i ha entrat... És igual,

and has entered... It doesn't matter,

hem guanyat, no? Doncs això era igual.

We have won, right? Well, that was the same.

Ah, hem guanyat la batalla. Hòstia, sí, però

Ah, we have won the battle. Damn, yes, but

per guanyar-la heu arrasat tres pobles i heu

to win her, you have devastated three villages and you have

assassinat nens i no sé què. Hem guanyat

murdered children and I don't know what. We have won.

la batalla. Llavors era

the battle. Then it was

això, reputació, no

this, reputation, no

honor. D'altra banda,

honor. On the other hand,

seguint l'exemple dels samurais, tinc

following the example of the samurais, I have

entès que els habitants de les ciutats, que

understood that the inhabitants of the cities, who

els deien chonin, aspiraven

they called them chonin, they aspired

com adquirir en la pràctica

how to acquire in practice

del comerç les qualitats aquestes

of trade these qualities

com dels samurais, que era, no sé,

like the samurais, which was, I don't know,

diligència, honestedat, honor,

diligence, honesty, honor,

lleialtat, no?

loyalty, right?

Com va passar aquesta

How did this happen?

relació? És a dir, què es van, com inspirant el seu

relationship? That is to say, what they are, like inspiring their

comportament per aplicar-ho

behavior to apply it

a les seves feines de...? Bé, és que se

to your jobs of...? Well, it's that you

suposava que era el que havien de fer. És a dir, en el moment

I assumed it was what they had to do. That is, at the moment

en què els samurais s'han de comportar així,

in what way must samurais behave like this,

en teoria, perquè després estaven

in theory, because then they were

tota la tarda en un barri

all afternoon in a neighborhood

de prostívol, amb un

of prosthetic, with a

batxant-se i anant al teatre, no? Però

Having fun and going to the theater, right? But

es suposava que s'havien de comportar d'aquella manera,

it was supposed that they were to behave in that way,

recordem que ho fan

let's remember that they do it

en teoria perquè han de servir de model a la resta

theoretically because they have to serve as a model for the rest

de la societat. Llavors, ells es comporten

of society. Then, they behave

així, el que s'espera és que els artesans,

thus, what is expected is that the artisans,

els comerciants, etcètera, es comportin així.

the merchants, etc., behave like this.

De fet, quan el Japó, després de la segona guerra mundial,

In fact, when Japan, after the Second World War,

va tenir el boom de creixement

it had the boom of growth

econòmic, etcètera, i ràpidament va passar

economic, etcetera, and quickly passed

de ser un país assolat per la guerra

of being a country ravaged by war

a ser la segona economia mundial,

to be the second largest economy in the world,

també el que es venia és que s'havia

also what was sold was that it had

aconseguit perquè els oficinistes

achieved because the office workers

i els treballadors es comportaven

and the workers behaved

com samurais. Sí, jo t'ho anava a dir perquè

like samurais. Yes, I was going to tell you that because

recordo, o sigui, ja fa molts anys vaig

I remember, I mean, many years ago I went

anar al Japó i, bueno, això és molt llarg

go to Japan and, well, that's very long

d'explicar, però vaig acabar en una empresa japonesa

to explain, but I ended up in a Japanese company

fent una entrevista com estic fent

doing an interview like I am doing

amb tu, però amb

with you, but with

treballadors d'allà, no? I

workers from there, right? I

una de les preguntes que tenia era

one of the questions I had was

si aquests codis de conducta

if these codes of conduct

d'alguna manera tan estrictes

somehow so strict

tinc la sensació que estan molt lligats

I have the feeling that they are very connected.

a les grans empreses japoneses, també, a dia d'avui.

to the large Japanese companies, also, as of today.

Estan bastant lligats a la societat japonesa en general.

They are quite tied to Japanese society in general.

Clar, hem de pensar que durant 250 anys,

Of course, we have to keep in mind that for 250 years,

i a més 250 anys bastant recents,

and also 250 quite recent years,

clar, pot semblar

of course, it may seem

que no, però jo que em dedico al segle XVI,

that no, but I who am dedicated to the 16th century,

doncs per mi el segle XIX és molt recent,

well for me the 19th century is very recent,

durant 250 anys el Japó

for 250 years Japan

va estar tancat a influències exteriors

he was closed off to outside influences

i va estar

and it was

potenciant-se aquest tipus de pensament

enhancing this type of thinking

neoconfusionista. Llavors, això lògicament

neoconfusionist. Then, this logically

deixa un

leave a

poso, diguéssim, mental

let's say, mental

i social molt important. Llavors,

and very important social. Then,

el Japó continua, per exemple,

Japan continues, for example,

continua sent un país bastant masclista,

it continues to be a fairly sexist country,

doncs en part ve per això,

well, partly it comes from that,

per aquesta submissió que se suposa

for this submission that is supposed

que la dona ha de ser

that the woman must be

obedient al marit, etcètera, etcètera.

obedient to the husband, etcetera, etcetera.

I el treballador ha de ser obedient a l'empresa,

And the worker must be obedient to the company,

etcètera, etcètera. Llavors, això

etcetera, etcetera. Then, this

està encara molt ficat a l'ADN,

he is still very much embedded in the DNA,

podríem dir, de la societat japonesa.

we could say, of Japanese society.

Per les coses bones i per les coses dolentes

For the good things and for the bad things.

com el tema del masclisme.

with the issue of sexism.

Abans comentaves que entre

Earlier you mentioned that between

1603-1867,

1603-1867,

aproximadament, uns

approximately, about

15 dirigents Tokugawa

15 Tokugawa leaders

van

they go

controlar...

to control...

15 Shogun Tokugawa.

15 Shogun Tokugawa.

Des de Ieyasu,

Since Ieyasu,

el 1603, fins a Yoshinobu, que va ser

in 1603, until Yoshinobu, who was

el darrere de tots. Que la pregunta és evident.

the back of everyone. That the question is obvious.

Per què van acabar

Why did they end?

perdent el control del país? Com?

Losing control of the country? How?

Bueno, va ser una...

Well, it was a...

Primer, al final tot s'ha d'acabar,

First, in the end, everything must come to an end,

i els va durar 250 anys,

and it lasted them 250 years,

amb la qual cosa està molt bé, però clar, al final

with which is very good, but of course, in the end

es van anar encadenant

they started to chain together

una mica crisis

a bit of a crisis

internes i externes, temporades de

internal and external, seasonal of

males collites que porten

bad crops they bring

femines

feminine

a diferents zones.

to different areas.

Tenim els Tosama, que cada cop estan més emprenyats

We have the Tosama, who are getting more and more annoyed.

perquè no poden accedir a llocs

because they cannot access places

de poder, etcètera.

of being able, etcetera.

Tenim una decadència del sistema

We have a decline of the system.

amb el que el Shogun cada cop

with what the Shogun increasingly

pinta menys, i llavors

paint less, and then

Kimana és una espècie de consell

Kimana is a kind of council.

dels Tairo, els ancians

of the Tairo, the elders

una mica controlen el tema, es va difuminant.

They control the issue a little, it is fading away.

Qui són els Tairo?

Who are the Tairo?

Són una espècie de consellers que cada cop van

They are a kind of advisers who are gradually going.

tenint més poder, i al final el Shogun

having more power, and in the end the Shogun

acaba sent una mica un titella, i qui controla

ends up being a bit of a puppet, and who controls

el tema són ells.

The theme is them.

Es despersonalitza tota la figura

The entire figure becomes depersonalized.

del Shogun. I quan allò

of the Shogun. And when that

estava ja bullint al Japó, doncs llavors

it was already boiling in Japan, so then

arriben als Estats Units

they arrive in the United States

i canvien

and they change

una mica tot el paradigma i ho aprofiten

a little bit of the whole paradigm and they take advantage of it

tots aquells descontents

all those discontented

amb el govern, ho aprofiten per fer

with the government, they take the opportunity to do

saltar el govern pels aires,

blow up the government,

aprofiten per posar l'emperador de la seva part

they take the opportunity to win the emperor over to their side

dient que ells no volen

saying that they don’t want

manar ells, que ells volen que torni a manar

to command them, for they want me to command again

l'emperador com ho feia a l'antiguitat

the emperor as he did in ancient times

quan tot anava molt millor.

when everything was going much better.

Primer, a l'antiguitat l'emperador tampoc

First, in antiquity, the emperor also

manava, i segon, les coses tampoc anaven molt millor.

it flowed, and second, things weren't going much better either.

Però bé, és la idea que ells volen, que

But well, it's the idea that they want, that

aquells estan usurpant el poder que

those are usurping the power that

li pertoca l'emperador, que descendeix

it belongs to the emperor, who descends

dels déus, etcètera, etcètera. Al final

of the gods, etcetera, etcetera. In the end

què passa? Doncs que fan una guerra, treuen d'allà el govern

What's happening? Well, they're waging a war, removing the government from there.

i llavors manen aquests que han fet la guerra,

and then those who waged the war command,

però diuen que ho fan en nom de l'emperador.

but they say they do it in the name of the emperor.

I és allò que es coneix com la restauració

And it is what is known as the restoration.

Meiji, perquè es restaura el poder

Meiji, because power is restored.

a l'emperador, però que realment és una mentida

to the emperor, but it is really a lie

perquè no es restaura. Es posa

because it is not restored. It is put.

l'emperador, que suposa que ara és qui mana, un govern

the emperor, who is supposed to be the one in charge now, a government

imperial, etcètera, tot és imperial,

imperial, etcetera, everything is imperial,

però qui mana són un grup de samurais,

but those in charge are a group of samurais,

que són els que han fet la guerra,

they are the ones who have made the war,

que són els Tosama, no? La gent

What are the Tosama, right? The people.

de Satsuma, la gent de Tosa, la gent de

from Satsuma, the people of Tosa, the people of

Choshu... Els apastats. Els apastats,

Choshu... The freemen. The freemen.

és el moment que diuen, i si tu mires avui en dia

it's the moment they say, and if you look today

els principals polítics que governen el Japó,

the main politicians who govern Japan,

i mires els seus cognoms, i mires

and you look at their surnames, and you look

les seves famílies d'on són, sí, la majoria

Where are their families from, yes, the majority?

ara mateix seran de Tokio, etcètera,

right now they will be from Tokyo, etc.

però tu mires d'on eren els seus avis, i són

but you look at where their grandparents were from, and they are

tots de Satsuma, de Choshu, de Tosa.

all from Satsuma, from Choshu, from Tosa.

És a dir, es van aconseguir fer amb el control...

That is to say, they managed to do it with control...

dels Tosama. Sí,

from the Tosama. Yes,

es van aconseguir fer amb el control del país,

they managed to take control of the country,

i encara el tenen. El van

And they still have it. They went.

apartar del govern, Tokugawa, l'últim?

Remove from the government, Tokugawa, the last one?

Yoshinobu, has dit? Sí.

Yoshinobu, did you say? Yes.

O li van tallar el cap? No, no, no, va continuar

Or did they cut off his head? No, no, no, he continued.

vivint, de fet, va viure fins al 1913,

living, in fact, lived until 1913,

ara fa dos mesos i mig vaig estar a la seva

Two and a half months ago, I was at his place.

tomba, que està allà

Turn around, it's over there.

a Tokio, molt a prop del Museu

in Tokyo, very close to the Museum

Nacional de Tokio. De fet, tinc un

National of Tokyo. In fact, I have a

vídeo al canal sobre el museu,

video on the channel about the museum,

i com que vaig passar per allà, vaig gravar també,

And since I passed by there, I also recorded.

i ho tinc allà.

And I have it there.

I no, ell va morir. El que passa que ell va

And no, he died. The thing is that he went

un moment que va voler negociar amb aquesta

a moment when he/she wanted to negotiate with this

gent, i s'ha dit, i va dir, vale, vale,

people, and it has been said, and he said, okay, okay,

desfem el govern i tal,

let's dismantle the government and such,

cap problema, però ell la condició que

no problem, but he the condition that

ficava és que volia que els Tokugawa

what I wanted was for the Tokugawa

continuessin estant al govern, ja no els únics,

continuing to be in government, no longer the only ones,

però si es forma un govern a diferents senyors,

but if a government is formed with different lords,

els Tokugawa encara haurien d'estar aquí,

the Tokugawa should still be here,

i volia que les terres, els dominis

and I wanted that the lands, the domains

que pertanyien als Tokugawa, que eren

that belonged to the Tokugawa, who were

tranquil·lament una cinquena

calmly one-fifth

part o una sisena part del país...

part or one sixth of the country...

Havien tingut prou temps per acumular...

They had had enough time to accumulate...

Clar, clar, clar. Doncs volia mantenir-ho

Sure, sure, sure. Well, I wanted to keep it.

i tal. Què va passar? Que aquella proposta,

and so on. What happened? That proposal,

si l'arriba a fer un any abans,

if he had done it a year earlier,

els revoltats l'hi compren.

The rebels buy it.

Però en aquell moment que la va dir, ja era massa tard,

But at that moment when he said it, it was already too late,

ja estaven tots ja molt engorilats

they were all already very excited

i molt... i van dir, no, no, no, fora, fora.

and a lot... and they said, no, no, no, out, out.

I llavors van fer la guerra,

And then they made war,

la guerra Boshin, el govern

the Boshin war, the government

es va rendir, van capitular

he surrendered, they capitulated

i llavors els Tokugawa continuen

And then the Tokugawa continue

existint, encara hi ha els ascendents

existing, there are still the ancestors

i no viuen malament,

and they do not live badly,

però van quedar completament apartats

but they were completely left out

de tot.

of everything.

Ara és quan potser se me'n va una mica la olla

Now is when maybe I'm losing it a bit.

i em passo de frenada, però imagina

And I brake too hard, but imagine.

que tu fossis Tokugawa Ieyasu

that you were Tokugawa Ieyasu

i tinguessis una màquina del temps

and you had a time machine

i sapiguessis, pels motius que acabes d'explicar,

and you knew, for the reasons you just explained,

que perdries el control del país,

that you would lose control of the country,

no?, les teves futures generacions.

No? Your future generations.

Amb aquest coneixement,

With this knowledge,

quines noves polítiques hauries dissenyat

what new policies would you have designed

per evitar-ho? Jo soc bo

to avoid it? I am good

estudiant polítiques, però dissenyant-les

studying policies, but designing them

no tant.

not so much.

Jo potser hauria...

I might have...

És arriscat, però jo... Prenc el teu temps,

It's risky, but I... Take your time,

et pots fer un, si vols, veure't al

you can make one if you want, see you at

liter cas una mica... No, ja no em queda,

I'm a little bit drunk... No, I don't have any left now.

ja no em queda.

I have no more left.

No ho sé, jo potser

I don't know, maybe me.

hauria obert el país abans,

I would have opened the country earlier,

és a dir, sabent

that is to say, knowing

que després t'obligarien

that would then force you

a obrir-lo,

to open it,

l'hauria obert abans, això és fer trampa,

I should have opened it earlier, this is cheating.

perquè lògicament sé el que va passar,

because logically I know what happened,

l'hauria obert jo abans

I would have opened it before.

i hauria començat

I would have started.

potser una llege, hauria començat

perhaps a law would have begun

a conquerir altres

to conquer others

territoris abans de quan

territories before when

ho va fer el Japó, però ho hauria fet

Japan did it, but it would have done it.

crec, millor, és a dir...

I believe, better, that is to say...

Colònies vols dir? Hauria anat incorporant

Do you mean colonies? I would have been incorporating.

territoris, no conquerint-los

territories, not conquering them

i aixafant-los

and crushing them

i fent totes les

and doing all the

bestieses que els hi van fer.

nonsense that they did to them.

Bestieses que són molt comparables a les

Foolishness that is very comparable to the

que van fer els britànics a la Xina, etc.

what the British did in China, etc.

Però bueno, les del Japó tenen pitjor

But well, the ones from Japan are worse.

premsa.

press.

Hauria començat a fer de potència,

I would have started to make power,

volent jo,

wanting me,

és a dir, no sent obligat.

That is to say, he is not feeling obligated.

I llavors ho hauria començat a fer,

And then I would have started to do it.

és a dir, ells venien la idea, molt bonica

that is to say, they sold the idea, very beautiful

i molt bucòlica, que el que estaven fent era

and very bucolic, what they were doing was

alliberar l'Àsia Oriental de la

liberate East Asia from the

tirania de les potències occidentals.

tyranny of the Western powers.

Clar, el que no deien era que era per establir una

Of course, what they didn't say was that it was to establish a

tirania igual o pitjor que era la seva.

tyranny equal to or worse than his.

Llavors aquella idea tan bonica i tan bucòlica,

Then that beautiful and bucolic idea,

de la unió dels

of the union of

pobles asiàtics i tal, doncs jo hauria

Asian peoples and such, well I would have

intentat fer-la, de veritat, només

tried to do it, really, just

en la propaganda, sinó...

in the propaganda, but...

Però vaja, no sé. Els historiadors en teoria tenien

But well, I don't know. Historians theoretically had

prohibit fer història ficció, no?

prohibited to make science fiction, right?

Per això t'ho preguntava, tenia curiositat

That's why I was asking you, I was curious.

per veure el Shogun Jonathan

to see the Shogun Jonathan

què hauria fet aquí. Però ens agrada molt fer-ho.

What I would have done here. But we really enjoy doing it.

No s'ha de fer, però ens agrada fer-ho. Sí, algo així.

It doesn't have to be done, but we like to do it. Yes, something like that.

No ho havia plantejat mai.

I had never thought about it.

Jonathan, moltes gràcies per aquesta conversa

Jonathan, thank you very much for this conversation.

i per compartir el teu coneixement i

and to share your knowledge and

opinió a Diseño Japón. Com sempre

opinion on Japan Design. As always

és un plaer parlar amb tu. Crec que

it's a pleasure to talk to you. I think that

totes les persones que ens escolten hem

all the people who listen to us we have

après molt sobre com dissenyar un sistema

after much thought on how to design a system

social estable, encara que

socially stable, although

a un cercós, esclar.

to a circle, of course.

I espero que els oients existents del Sakura Matsuri de Sabadell

I hope that the existing listeners of the Sakura Matsuri in Sabadell

avui hagin desenvolupat

today they have developed

ja podríem dir certa curiositat per aprendre

we could already say a certain curiosity to learn

sobre aquest tema. I per què no dir-ho?

about this topic. And why not say it?

Per adquirir potser el teu llibre d'història

To perhaps acquire your history book.

de los samurais, que realment és

of the samurais, which really is

superlleuger i agradable de llegir. De fet,

superlight and pleasant to read. In fact,

deixa'm fer la falca publicitària.

let me do the advertising pitch.

Aquest és de l'Alianza.

This is from the Alliance.

Originalment va sortir amb Satori i

Originally it came out with Satori and

ara dintre de poc, de fet fins la setmana vinent

now in a little while, in fact until next week

no ho puc dir, però

I can't say, but

sortirà la tercera edició amb Satori i

the third edition will be released with Satori and

hem aprofitat i hem fet un canvi,

we have taken the opportunity and made a change,

hem fet un nou epíleg parlant del Bushido. Primícia, primícia.

We have made a new epilogue talking about Bushido. First, first.

Hem fet un nou epíleg parlant del Bushido, més

We have made a new epilogue discussing Bushido, more

desenvolupat. Conté un pròleg

developed. It contains a preface.

escrit per Carlos Martínez Show, que és un

written by Carlos Martínez Show, which is a

membre de la Real Academia de la Historia

member of the Royal Academy of History

i m'ha fet un pròleg excel·lent.

He has written me an excellent preface.

Més imatges, o sigui, l'hem renovat

More images, in other words, we've updated it.

una miqueta. I per altra banda, al

a little bit. And on the other hand, to the

setembre, i això sí que no és primícia perquè ja

September, and this is indeed not a scoop because it already

ho porto dient temps, al setembre sortirà en català,

I've been saying it for a while, it will be released in Catalan in September.

que és una cosa de la que porto al darrere

it's something that I carry on my back

molt temps. Doncs bé, jo el tindré

a long time. Well, I will have it.

ja a les mans d'aquí un mes, però sortirà

Already in hand in a month, but it will come out.

al setembre. Llavors serà

in September. Then it will be

Història dels Samurais. No hem canviat gaire el

History of the Samurais. We haven't changed much.

títol, només l'hem traduït

title, we have only translated it

en català i tinc moltes ganes que estigui.

In Catalan and I really want it to be.

Doncs moltíssimes gràcies, Jonathan.

Well, thank you very much, Jonathan.

Espero que podem col·laborar més l'any futur.

I hope we can collaborate more next year.

I que disfruteu. Si em portes

And enjoy. If you bring me.

més frites a casa, segur. Bé, ara et puc dur a la

more fries at home, for sure. Well, now I can take you to the

Suebs de Gingerell, si vols te la portes cap a casa.

Gingerell's dreams, if you want you can take it home.

Que passeu

Have a good time.

un gran dia, tots vosaltres els oients que

a great day, all of you listeners who

ens esteu escoltant, i

you are listening to us, and

aneu a votar, si no heu anat a votar,

go vote, if you haven't gone to vote,

i si no, doncs no voteu. Exacte.

And if not, then don't vote. Exactly.

Que vagi molt bé. Moltes gràcies.

Take care. Thank you very much.

Moltes gràcies.

Thank you very much.

Hòstia, la de pol·len que hi ha, eh?

Wow, look at all that pollen, huh?

Se m'ha quedat la pantalla, tio. Hi ha molt de pol·len,

My screen has frozen, dude. There is a lot of pollen.

hi ha molt de pol·len. Sí, sí, sí, sí.

There is a lot of pollen. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Les opinions expressades en aquest podcast

The opinions expressed in this podcast

són responsabilitat

they are responsible

exclusiva dels participants

exclusive to participants

que les emeten, i no necessàriament

that emit them, and not necessarily

representen el pensament

they represent thought

ni la línia editorial

nor the editorial line

de Diseyo Japón.

of Design Japan.