布萊希特《人等於人》

优优独播剧场——YoYo Television Series Exclusive

YoYo Television Series Exclusive

今晚我们会继续欣赏布莱希特的剧本

Tonight we will continue to appreciate Brecht's plays.

陈晶桥就会和我们讲一下

Chen Jingqiao will talk to us about it.

他早期在1926年的一个戏

He was in a play in 1926 during his early career.

叫做《人等于人》

Called "Human Equals Human"

《人等于人》这个戏

"The play 'People Are Equal to People'"

在香港曾经上演过几次

It has been staged several times in Hong Kong.

也是布莱希特第一部的最熟剧

It is also Brecht's most well-known play.

陈晶桥我们知道

We know Chen Jingqiao.

《人等于人》就是一部

"People Are Equal to People" is a work that...

有11场的这么长的戏剧

There are 11 performances of such a long play.

好像是很片段式的

It seems to be very fragmented.

它有一个副题

It has a subtitle.

就是叫做

It's called.

《1925年包装工人加尼·盖耶

"1925 Packaging Worker Gani Gaye"

在基尔科奥兵营中的变化》

"Changes in the Kilo-Kao Barracks"

很思想性的一个题目

A very thought-provoking topic.

剧本大概其实是讲什么

What is the general plot of the script?

是不是都是讲这个士兵的经历

Is it all about this soldier's experiences?

故事其实是很有趣的

The story is actually very interesting.

很吸引很富娱乐性

Very attractive and highly entertaining.

他就讲一个小人物

He talks about a small character.

这个不是一个英雄

This is not a hero.

是一个小人物

Is a small person.

有一天

One day

他太太叫他出去买菜

His wife asked him to go out and buy groceries.

一去就不回

Never to return once gone.

一去就碰上很多

As soon as I went, I encountered a lot.

古灵精怪的事

Bizarre and quirky things.

他自己也意想不到

He didn't expect it himself.

结果到剧的结尾

As a result, by the end of the play.

这个人就已经不存在了

This person no longer exists.

不是说他死了

It's not said that he died.

不是说他被杀或者被劫

It’s not that he was killed or robbed.

好像你的副题所说

It seems like what your subtitle says.

他转化了

He has transformed.

变成了另一个人

Became another person.

是

Yes.

,整部剧就讲他

The whole drama is about him.

为什么会变成了另一个人

Why has it become another person?

客观的原因其实就是说

The objective reason actually means that...

有一班士兵

There was a group of soldiers.

他们就在一个兵团里面

They are in a military division.

他们就其中一个成员就

They just talked about one of the members.

因为在一个庙里面做导弹

Because they were making missiles inside a temple.

大家去玩

Everyone go have fun.

就困在那里出不来

Just getting stuck there and unable to get out.

很好笑的

Very funny.

总之整部剧很好笑

In short, the whole drama is very funny.

困在那里出不来

Stuck there and unable to get out.

他们要变成少了一个人

They want to become one person less.

在他们的组里面去报导

Report in their group.

要强行找一个平民

To forcefully找一个 civilian.

去补上

Go make up for it.

去扮演那个士兵

Go play that soldier.

刚刚就碰到这个

Just encountered this.

出街买菜的男人

A man going out to buy groceries.

结果他们就出尽威逼力

As a result, they exerted all their coercive power.

方法并不是去监他或者打他

The method is not to monitor him or hit him.

要这个人他自己心甘情愿

This person has to be willing to do it himself.

相信自己是另一个人

Believe that you are another person.

我们大家可以想象中间就会有很多

We can all imagine that there will be a lot in between.

很好笑的情节

Very funny plot.

整个是一个很令人捧腹大笑的一个戏

It is a very hilarious play.

讲这个人怎样由

Talk about how this person is from.

整天赶着买一条鱼回家

Rushing all day to buy a fish to take home.

一直到已经不记得那条鱼

Until I no longer remember that fish.

不记得自己家里等他回来的太太

I don't remember the wife at home waiting for him to come back.

甚至忘记自己过去自己的本性

Even forgetting one's own past and true nature.

忘记了自己的名字

Forgot my own name.

最重要的是名字

The most important thing is the name.

但这个士兵本身

But this soldier himself

或者这个原本的一个普通的住家男人

Or this originally was an ordinary man living at home.

他有什么性格上的特点

What personality traits does he have?

以至他这么容易被人改造到呢?

How could he be so easily transformed by others?

刚才你说有十一节

You just said there are eleven sections.

整个过程这十一节里面就分

The entire process is divided into eleven sections.

给我们看十一个不同的片段

Show us eleven different clips.

而加起来他又一步一步地

And he slowly took one step after another.

推向

Push towards

将一个人

Make a person

变成另一个人

Become another person.

所以

So

为什么一个题目好像比较特别

Why does a topic seem to be quite special?

好像一个方程式

It looks like an equation.

人等于人

A person is equal to a person.

好像将一辆车或者将任何一个机器

It seems like taking a car or any machine.

拆开去又重新组合

Disassemble and then reassemble.

拆开去又重新组合之后

After disassembling and then reassembling.

变成另一个人

Become another person.

但都是人

But they are all human.

人是什么东西呢?

What is a human being?

我想布洛希特就在透过一个比较

I think Brecht is just through a comparison.

富娱乐性的角度

The perspective of rich entertainment.

然后透过一个这样的结构

Then through such a structure.

那个结构就是

That structure is.

将一个过程

To carry out a process.

将一个步骤

Take a step.

是透过他的分析和安排

It is through his analysis and arrangements.

让观众都参与

Let the audience participate.

一路参与这个变化的过程

Participating in this process of change all the way.

一路很开心地欣赏

Enjoying the journey happily.

一路发觉原来

All the way, I discovered that actually...

可能很容易

It may be very easy.

人很容易就被拆开又重新组合

A person can easily be taken apart and reassembled.

变成了另一个人

Became another person.

原来所谓

So-called.

一个人的本性

The nature of a person.

一个人的身份

A person's identity

一个人的姓氏 姓名

A person's surname and name.

种种的东西都可能变得很

Various things can become very...

很不可靠

Very unreliable.

布洛希特是透过一个

Brecht is through a

很小的东西去探讨一个

A very small thing to explore one.

其实很深刻的一个问题

It's actually a very profound question.

其实这里也很有趣

Actually, it's also very interesting here.

为什么他会选择一些

Why would he choose some?

比如说很细碎

For example, very fragmented.

或者说在日常里面

Or say in everyday life.

听起来似乎有点荒诞的

It sounds a bit absurd.

是不是游戏

Is it a game?

但是也不是跟我们的生活完全脱节

But it's not completely disconnected from our lives.

其实他想取材或者是想集中去讨论

In fact, he wants to gather materials or focus on discussing.

一些人性的这个方向

The direction of some aspects of human nature.

跟他的戏剧理论是有什么关系的

What is the connection with his theory of drama?

有很大的关系

It has a lot to do with it.

我想我们讲过

I think we have talked about it.

他脱离这个传统悲剧形式的

He has detached himself from this traditional form of tragedy.

那种剧场

That kind of theater.

和那个世界观

And that worldview.

所以

So

因为悲剧里面除了要淨化

Because in a tragedy, besides needing purification.

要投入内心世界

You need to immerse yourself in your inner world.

还有一样东西就是寄望于人性的

There is another thing that relies on human nature.

就是

It is.

根本的那种

The fundamental type.

所谓伟大

So-called greatness.

如果是透过一些伟大的人物

If it is through some great figures.

所以说有悲剧英雄

So there are tragic heroes.

去寻找到人的一些

Go find some people.

依赖或者说根据

Dependence or according to.

布洛希特就觉得这一种是比较上是

Brecht felt that this one is relatively superior.

容易脱离

Easily disengage.

或者这样说

Or say it like this.

所以《人等于人》和

So "People are equals" and

《高瓦索夫伦记》里面

In "The Tales of Gavrilo,"

都是

It's all.

没有英雄人物的

There are no heroic figures.

全部都是小人物

They are all small individuals.

布洛希特就

Brecht just.

经常这样

Often like this.

这些情节很容易产生

These plots are easy to generate.

笑料出来的

The joke came out.

但是他也都

But he also...

在笑料的背后

Behind the jokes.

不忘记

Never forget

要观众去想一想这个问题

Ask the audience to think about this question.

其实是

Actually, it is.

经常我们见到

We often see.

和经常存在的

and often exists

于是

So

就说剧场的作用

Let's talk about the role of the theater.

剧场的作用就不是

The role of the theater is not to...

让我们去说

Let's go talk.

相信这个世界上还有包公

Believe that there are still officials like Bao Gong in this world.

或者这个世界上还有公义

Or perhaps there is still justice in this world.

正义在某处

Justice is somewhere.

或者在某一些英雄人物的

Or in the case of certain heroic figures.

一生的

A lifetime's worth

受苦

Suffering

的过程之中

in the process

是我们体现到的

It is what we embody.

也就是说在一些

That is to say, in some...

很无稽

Very absurd.

很好笑的过程之中

In the midst of a very funny process.

好像一个人

It seems like a person.

怎样突然间

How suddenly.

他由阿甲变成阿乙

He transformed from A to B.

阿甲去了哪里呢

Where did A Jia go?

他在这个戏当中有一个情节就是

He has a plot in this play where...

这个小人物

This little person.

是

Yes

主持自己的丧尾

Host your own funeral.

旧的他

The old him.

他深信已经是死了

He firmly believes that he is already dead.

而他觉得那个不是他

But he feels that it is not him.

完全是另外一个人

Completely a different person.

这种的

This kind of.

角色

Character

正如你刚才说

As you just said.

就不是说

It's just not the case that...

那些英雄的人物

Those heroic figures.

而可能观众当中的你和我

And perhaps you and I among the audience.

都会在日常生活里面

Will be in daily life.

某一个时空

A certain space-time.

都会有暂时有这样的感觉

Everyone can feel this way temporarily.

觉得自己的变化

Feel the changes in yourself.

受到环境的影响

Affected by the environment

这样东西他

This kind of thing he...

喜欢用一些平民的人物

I like to use some ordinary characters.

跟他比如说我们时时都说

For example, we often say to him.

布莱希特是跟马克思主义

Brecht is associated with Marxism.

或者社会主义

Or socialism.

当时的德国等等

Germany at that time, etc.

是有很密切的关系

There is a very close relationship.

跟那种的思想

With that kind of thinking.

或者要改造世界

Or we need to change the world.

要从自己每一个人

To each and every person.

本身来做起

Start from oneself.

自己反省等等这些

Self-reflection and so on.

是不是

Is it?

都是有一个很密切的联系

They are all closely related.

这个问题是这样看

This question is viewed like this.

我们说布莱希特是一个

We say Brecht is a

马克思主义者

Marxist

或者他

Or he.

自称是一个

Self-proclaimed as a

是社会主义的艺术工作者

It is the artistic worker of socialism.

这个和我们理解

This is in line with our understanding.

在不同的处境

In different situations.

特别是中国的处境当中

Especially in the context of China's situation.

他理解这个什么叫社会主义

He understands what socialism is.

或者马克思主义的艺术工作者

Or Marxist art workers

有点不同

A little different.

我觉得布莱希特之所以重要

I think the reason Brecht is important

以及他的影响

And his influence.

以及他的成功的要点

And the key points of his success.

是在于他很多的理论

It lies in his many theories.

都是在他的剧场的实践当中

All in his theatrical practice.

是体现出来

It is reflected.

而这个实践

And this practice

透过一个所谓

Through a so-called

间离效果

Alienation effect

或者说最是剧场

Or rather, it is the theater.

这些这么具体的形式上的改造

These specific formal transformations.

来达到一些

To achieve some.

就是他想要刺激观众的思考

He wants to stimulate the audience's thinking.

达到批判社会的

Achieve critical social commentary.

现实

Reality

达到甚至最好

Achieve or even surpass the best.

让观众

Let the audience.

看完这齣戏

After watching this play.

踏出剧场以外以后

After stepping out of the theater.

就不是得了一个心灵的淨化

It is not just a purification of the soul.

而是

but rather

得到种种的问题

Get various problems.

得到一系列的矛盾

Obtain a series of contradictions.

解决不了的

Unresolvable.

人为什么会是这样的

Why are people like this?

这个法官这么糊涂

This judge is so confused.

他判了这件案子

He ruled on this case.

究竟

Ultimately

是不是应该是这样的

Shouldn't it be like this?

而是经过一轮的

rather, it is after a round of

笑

Smile

或者笑中的一些思考

Or some thoughts behind the laughter.

或者笑中的一些

Or some in the laughter.

思想当中

In thought.

这个我顺带讲一讲

I'll mention this briefly.

布雷希特

Brecht

始终是

Always is

钟情于喜剧

Fond of comedy.

多过悲剧

More than tragedy.

当然喜剧在西方传统里面

Of course, comedy is within the Western tradition.

都是有一个

There is one of each.

有一个世界观的

There is a worldview.

和谐

Harmony

善有善报

Good deeds bring good rewards.

基本上世界观是完整和和谐的

Basically, the worldview is complete and harmonious.

布雷希特拿了它来

Brecht took it.

用喜剧来达到一个

Use comedy to achieve a...

比较积极的社会批判

Comparatively positive social criticism.

甚至或者说有个政治的

Even, or it could be said that there is a political aspect.

道德的取向的作用的时候

The role of moral orientation.

他在一个剧场里带来观众在

He brings the audience to a theater.

笑声之中

In the laughter.

去得出的思考

Thoughts derived from going.

这个同时兼顾了这个所谓平民化的层面

This simultaneously takes into account the so-called democratization aspect.

也都希望

Hope so too.

就唤醒

Just wake up.

观众在一个看戏的时候和看戏之后的

The audience during and after watching a play.

思考

Thinking

不要忘记因为

Don't forget because

只是挂着头入

Just hanging by the head.

而没有思考

and without thinking

笑声相对于哭

Laughter in contrast to crying.

不是哭

Not crying.

相对于这种

Relative to this

这种

This kind of

怡情作用那种感情投入

The emotional investment of pleasurable experiences.

以至到暗暗下泪的那种感情

A feeling that brings one to silently shed tears.

是更加容易

It is easier.

更加有弹性

More flexible

更加容易让观众

Make it easier for the audience.

说不定说

Maybe say.

可以停下想一想的问题

Questions that can be paused to think about.

我举一个例子

I will give an example.

就好像中国的

It's just like China.

剧场面观众坐在那里

The audience sits there in the theater.

一边摸花生一边看戏

Watching a show while picking peanuts.

他想是这样但是

He thinks it's like this, but...

一边摸花生一边想着一些

While touching the peanuts, thinking about something.

很大的问题

A big problem.

其实是透过一些很小的人物当中去达到的

In fact, it is achieved through some very minor characters.

他自己也曾经说过

He himself has said before.

他希望观众

He hopes the audience

当台上的人在笑的时候

When the person on stage is laughing.

观众可能是会流泪

The audience may shed tears.

但是当台上的人哭的时候观众可能是会笑

But when the people on stage cry, the audience might laugh.

这个可能跟你说的

This might be related to what you said.

间谍效果就是

The effect of espionage is...

这个这样的例子

Such examples.

但是在《人等于人》这个剧本里面

But in the script "Man Equals Man"

有没有哪些情节是很能够做到这样的效果

Are there any plot points that can achieve such an effect?

这个戏我刚才说

I just mentioned this play.

最基本的一样东西就是

The most basic thing is

一个人

A person

怎样确定自己

How to determine yourself?

的身份

identity

怎样确定自己

How to determine oneself.

是属于

belong to

哪里的

Where is it?

工作是什么

What is work?

他的身份究竟是一个

What exactly is his identity?

平民 农夫

Commoner Farmer

士兵

Soldier

是一个好人还是坏人

Is he a good person or a bad person?

是一个去周围找女人

It's someone who goes around looking for women.

去周围风花树雨的人

Go to the people around who are immersed in the beauty of nature.

还是一个

Still one.

很乖的住家男人

A very obedient house husband.

或者说很诚实

Or to say very honestly.

可靠的人

Reliable person

究竟一个人是什么

What exactly is a person?

各方面一些

Some aspects.

他不是提到一些

He didn't mention some.

很形而上的

Very metaphysical.

价值的问题

The question of value.

而是一个人一些很基本的

But rather some very basic aspects of a person.

日常生活

Daily Life

一种怎样为自己定位

How to position oneself?

的东西

things

他将这些东西

He will take these things.

透过他这个戏剧的结构

Through the structure of his drama.

透过他

Through him

这种敘事的形式

This narrative form

是慢慢将他好像

It seems to slowly turn him into...

拆零件那样拆开了

It was taken apart like disassembling parts.

原本这个人是个住家男人

This person was originally a family man.

他将这个人拆了

He disassembled this person.

原本这个人是一个很诚实的人

Originally, this person was a very honest person.

他将他拆了

He tore it apart.

因为他慢慢发觉原来

Because he gradually realized that

为什么他开始

Why did he start?

不承认自己是

Not admitting that one is

原来那个人呢

So where is that person?

他慢慢发觉原来

He slowly realized that...

如果承认自己是那个人呢

What if I admit that I am that person?

譬如说

For example

要有些责任要付的

There are some responsibilities that need to be fulfilled.

譬如说他欠人钱的

For example, he owes someone money.

一般的平民都有时

Ordinary civilians sometimes have.

想不认账

Want to deny the account.

想暂时自己不是那个人

I want to temporarily not be that person.

布雷希就将这些东西突出来

Breckie just sticks these things out.

将一系列的这些问题

A series of these questions.

组成

Composition

让我们发觉我们一向觉得自己是一个

Let us realize that we have always considered ourselves to be one.

很好的先生的

Very good, sir.

自己是一个很守时的人

I am a very punctual person.

自己是一个

I am a

即是每天上班或者说上学

That is, going to work or school every day.

即是很尽忠促手的人

That is someone who is very loyal and helpful.

慢慢将每一件事拆开他

Slowly take apart each thing.

然后呢

And then?

让他慢慢变了

Let him change slowly.

但是呢

However,

他又不是说这个人是一个

He didn't say that this person is a one.

很罪恶的人

A very sinful person.

因为

Because

在一个过程之中

In a process.

可以说他也有一些外在的因素是被逼的

It can be said that there are some external factors that forced him as well.

有人害他的

Someone is harming him.

也不是全部有人害他

Not everyone is out to harm him.

他自己也都最后甘心情愿

He himself was ultimately willing in the end.

最精彩的地方就是他拿到这一点

The most exciting part is that he got this point.

主观和客观之间的那个

The one between subjective and objective.

平衡或者拿个结合

Balance or take a combination.

就是一样东西不是人家逼他

It's just that the same thing is not forced on him by others.

是逼你的

It's forcing you.

但是当然有一个客观因素

But of course, there is an objective factor.

你自己到头来

You end up by yourself.

是选择去将

It is a choice to go.

人

Person

自己是什么

What is oneself?

那个

That one.

既定的方案去

The established plan goes.

重新去解定

Re-establish the definition.

在1926年

In 1926

《人等于人》这个剧本里面

In the script "People Equals People"

当时他

At that time, he

或者未正式和中国戏剧有一个接触

Or perhaps not formally having had contact with Chinese drama.

那也是他的戏剧理论

That is also his theatrical theory.

未必是最能够成为体系

Not necessarily the most capable of becoming a system.

在他的流亡期间之前的一个剧本

A screenplay from before his period of exile.

但是在一个这么早期的剧本里面

But in such an early draft of the script

根据你自己观赏这个剧本演出的经验

Based on your own experience of watching this script performance.

你觉得他是不是已经是有一种

Do you think he already has a kind of?

形成了一种对戏剧的特别的看法

A special perspective on drama has been formed.

我觉得是完全有的

I think it is completely possible.

如果是习惯于看传统的

If you are used to watching traditional ones.

西方的戏剧

Western drama

或者说

Or rather.

一些比较现代的

Somewhat modern.

比如中国的

For example, China’s

画剧

Painted drama

《雷雨》那种

"Like Thunderstorm."

《寿雨》那些

"Longevity Rain" those.

的戏剧或田刊

Drama or field publication

那时候我们会觉得就

At that time, we would feel that...

很不同

Very different.

首先就在于他整个罪事形式

The key lies in the entire nature of his crime.

他会用一个讲故事的方式

He will tell it in a storytelling manner.

戏剧本来应该是演给我们看的

The drama is supposed to be performed for us.

不是慢慢讲的

It's not something to be talked about slowly.

不是好像看小说的

It doesn't seem like reading a novel.

但是他现在好像

But he seems to be...

《国家律夫》《灰蓝记》最开头那样

"The National Lawyer" and "The Gray Blue Chronicle" start like this.

一帮人坐在那里慢慢讲

A group of people is sitting there talking slowly.

慢慢讲一个故事给你听

I'll slowly tell you a story.

人类人也都是这样

Humans are all like this too.

但是他还用了很多

But he also used a lot.

比如一个人拿着牌

For example, a person is holding a牌.

写着这个

Write this.

这一节的那个

That one from this section.

题目啊

Title ah

或者就是这样过场

Or maybe it's just a transition like this.

这个是

This is

整体要去达到他所谓的

The overall goal is to achieve what he calls.

间离效果的

Alienation effect

一种手法

A technique.

其中再有就是说

Among them, it also means...

比如他演的戏里面

For example, in the play he acted in.

有一个女人

There is a woman.

那就是

That is.

一个酒吧的

a bar's

老板娘

Boss lady

那她就

Then she will

她扮演一个

She plays a role.

那样的罪事者

Such a sinner.

或者歌手这样的角色

Or roles like a singer.

她企画过场当中

She is planning the event.

就会唱

Then I can sing.

有一些曲出来

There are some songs released.

在这个戏里面就不是介绍故事

This play does not introduce a story.

总有一些看法这样

There are always some opinions like this.

这些就好像

These are like.

我们会觉得可能说

We might think that we can say.

好像有些说教

It seems a bit preachy.

就好像导演走出来

It's like the director coming out.

或者作者走出来

Or the author comes out.

在那里点题

Pointing out the topic there.

在那里解释

Explain it there.

但是我们如果

But if we

细心看一看布罗希达里面的处理的时候

Take a closer look at the processing inside the Brohida.

当然他是有这样的

Of course, he has that.

他不去隐瞒自己

He does not hide himself.

作为作者或者作为一个幕后的主持人

As an author or as a behind-the-scenes host.

是有意思去点题的

It is interesting to hit the point.

点出一些东西

Point out some things.

他完全不去掩饰这件事

He doesn't hide this matter at all.

但是他做的方式是比较上

But the way he does it is rather superior.

不是说

Not to say

把一个意见或者把一个主题强加于观众的身上

Imposing an opinion or a theme on the audience.

而是说

That is to say

慢慢去把

Take your time.

这个过程

this process

比如说这个人等于人这个过程就是说

For example, this person's equal to the process of being a person means that...

把这个人怎么去解散

How to dissolve this person?

再重新组合成另一个人

Recombine into another person.

这个过程当中有一些

There are some in this process.

关键的地方

Key point

他点出来

He pointed it out.

让观众

Let the audience.

在这些

Among these

在武器做的时候所谓

When weapons are being made, so-called

慢慢再回想这些东西

Take your time to think back on these things.

还有一样就是这些歌很好听的

Another thing is that these songs are very nice to listen to.

这些歌本身很好听

These songs are very pleasant to listen to.

而且通常很有味道

And it's usually quite flavorful.

一样透过欣赏过程中

Similarly, through the process of appreciation.

得到一个

Get one.

串联一些问题

Link some questions.

将矛盾

To resolve contradictions.

将这个

Take this.

一个难题的前因后果慢慢在自己的

The causes and consequences of a difficult problem slowly unfold within oneself.

看戏过程中

During the process of watching a play.

组合

Combination

在这里我们就听一听在人等于人这个的

Here we will listen to what it means for people to be equal to people.

随时的

Anytime.

开始开场的时候

At the beginning of the opening.

布莱希特是用哪一个人物

Which character did Brecht use?

和是用什么手法

What technique is used in harmony?

用什么歌词的内容

What is the content of the lyrics?

来带出

Come out.

隐士者或者罪事者就是一个

The hermit or the sinner is just one.

在酒吧的老板娘

The bar owner's wife.

她就用第三者的角色

She played the role of a third party.

唱出来的

Sung out.

布莱希特先生保留人等于人

Mr. Brecht reserves that people are equal to people.

一个有时间开始就已经存在的

Something that has existed since the time it began.

看法

Viewpoint

但是布莱希特先生指出

However, Mr. Brecht pointed out.

人

Person

可以将一个人操纵和控制到什么程度

To what extent can a person be manipulated and controlled?

今晚

Tonight

你将会看到一个人

You will see a person.

好像一辆车一样被重新组合

It seems like a car that has been reassembled.

将他个别的零件

Take his individual parts.

圆圆满满地留下

Leave with completeness.

他是受他一些善良的朋友的劝告

He is under the advice of some of his kind friends.

为了他的利益

For his interests.

去追随这个逐势

Go follow this trend.

还有逐势歪曲的事

There are also matters of distorting trends.

也要放弃

Also need to give up.

追逐他关心

Chase after what he cares about.

但是没有意义的事

But meaningless things.

因此

Therefore

无论他种种转变的目的是什么

No matter what his various transformations are for.

他都会照着他的朋友的期待去做

He always does according to his friend's expectations.

其实

Actually

如果我们容许他在我们眼前消失

If we allow him to disappear before our eyes.

他的朋友

His friend.

只要一晚

Just one night.

就可以令到他无影无踪

Can make him disappear without a trace.

布莱希特先生

Mr. Brecht

希望你能够感觉到你蜡烛的地方

I hope you can feel where your candle is.

好像流沙一样

Like quicksand.

在你脚趾中间掀来掀去

Flicking back and forth between your toes.

所以

So

习工加利基的事

The matter of Xin Gong Jiali Ji.

可以令你认识到

can make you realize

在这个世界

In this world.

生命是一件要碰运气的事

Life is a matter of luck.

我刚才那一段就是在布莱希特1926年的作品

What I just said is from Brecht's work in 1926.

《人等于人》的开场里面

The opening of "People Equals People"

是一个酒吧的老板娘

She is the owner of a bar.

就是他自己站在第三身介绍

It is he himself introducing in the third person.

或者是引入这个演出的戏剧里面

Or introducing it into the drama of this performance.

将会发生什么事情的一些看法

Some opinions on what will happen.

陈千桥

Chen Qianqiao

我们也发觉很有趣一点就是

What we also find interesting is that...

1926年

1926年 translates to "the year 1926."

布莱希特还未是接触到中国的戏剧

Brecht has not yet come into contact with Chinese theater.

受到中国戏剧的影响

Influenced by Chinese drama.

但他似乎已经是喜欢采取一种对视者的角色

But he seems to have taken on the role of an observer.

这个可能在中国戏剧里面

This may be in Chinese drama.

或者在经济里面

Or in the economy.

就是用一些的长板来说

It’s just talking about some longboards.

但他已经有这样的伏线

But he already has such a foreshadowing.

或者有这样的戏剧的取向

Or there may be such a dramatic orientation.

可能中国戏剧的演出

Possibly the performance of Chinese drama.

只不过是再一次重新证实了他自己

It is just another confirmation of himself.

对戏剧的一些看法而已

Just some views on drama.

那么在《人等于人》这个剧本里面

So in the play "Man Equals Man"...

还有没有其他的一些的情节

Are there any other plots?

或者说那个表现的方式

Or it could be said the manner of expression.

是更能够很鲜明地说出

Can say it more distinctly.

他早期的这种戏剧理论的潜质呢

His early potential for this kind of dramatic theory.

我举了一个例子

I gave an example.

就是在第九场里面

It is in the ninth match.

我刚才也提过

I just mentioned it.

就是说在这一场里面

That means in this match.

如果有一个高潮的话

If there is a climax.

可能就是这里

Maybe it's here.

就是说这个人物的最后的转化

That is to say, the final transformation of this character.

其中一个关键

One of the key points.

就是说他要将旧事的他自己

That is to say, he wants to return to his former self from the past.

完全是埋葬

Completely buried.

这一场就是说这个演员

This performance is about this actor.

他是参加了葬礼

He attended the funeral.

这个葬礼就是说

This funeral means to say.

主人翁就是他自己

The protagonist is himself.

但他不当他是他自己来的

But he doesn't think he came as himself.

有一段比较长的独白

There is a relatively long monologue.

就是说他在这个葬礼的过程当中

That is to say, during the process of this funeral.

透过他自己的口中

Through his own mouth

用他自己的身体语言

Using his own body language.

是说出原来那个人

That is to say, to reveal the original person.

已经死了

Already dead.

跟着之后他就完全变了那个士兵

After that, he completely changed into that soldier.

他已经不记得了有过去那个人

He no longer remembers the person he used to be.

在这一场当中就是一个独白

In this performance, it is a monologue.

比较接近

Relatively close.

因为在葬礼里其实很少独白

Because there are actually very few monologues at funerals.

是比较长的

It is relatively long.

后来的剧是更加少的

The later plays were even fewer.

比如高县灰兰劫里面很少这样长的独白

For example, there are very few monologues as long as this in the play "Grey Orchid Robbery" from Gao County.

这个是比较独白

This is a relatively monologue.

因为可能就结合了他在一个

Because it may have combined with his in one.

葬礼的形式

The form of the funeral.

比较接近一些

Relatively close.

在悲剧里面的一些

Some in the tragedy.

悲剧英雄的独白

Monologue of a Tragic Hero

但是这个小人物

But this small character

就在这个整个戏当中都是一个

In this entire play, it's all about one thing.

很笑

Very funny.

很倾向于

Very inclined to.

甚至有点倾向于

Even a bit inclined towards.

好像一些闹剧

It seems like some kind of farce.

节奏很快

The rhythm is very fast.

过场很快

The transition is very quick.

节奏很快

The rhythm is fast.

比如说有些人扮帝扮象

For example, some people pretend to be emperors or elephants.

等等这种滑稽的事情当中

Amid such amusing things.

突然间有一刻

Suddenly, there was a moment.

就是很严肃的

It's very serious.

就是在葬礼里面

It's just at the funeral.

很巧妙地运用这些戏

Cleverly use these plays.

他不会说

He can't speak.

从头到尾给你一种很沉重的感觉

It gives you a heavy feeling from start to finish.

但是他间中有一度的时候

But there was a time when he...

他真的将那个

He really put that.

人性的

Human nature

最终埋葬了自己

Ultimately buried themselves.

就是

That's it.

就是带了出来

Just brought it out.

但是

However

接着之后

Then afterwards

你又会见到

You will see again.

接着之后就不是静化

After that, it will no longer be calm.

接着之后又再间来

Then it will come again afterward.

就说给我们看

Just say to show us.

这个人

This person

接着就是这样

Then it is like this.

更加好笑

Even funnier.

变得更加

Become more

更加理所当然的

More taken for granted.

变成另一个人

Become another person.

所以原来那种

So that kind originally.

就是在悲剧里面

It's just in the tragedy.

如果你透过一个独白的时候

If you are speaking through a monologue

你会

You can.

就是

Just.

带观众去一个

Take the audience to a

就是

Exactly.

一种

One kind

很自我沉默的

Very self-silencing.

升华的景象

Sublime scene

他这个差不多要升华之际

He is about to reach a state of sublimation.

他就将你一斩

He will cut you down.

又回到现实

Back to reality again.

就是我想那个

I just want that.

张力是

The tension is

很不同

Very different

很重要

Very important.

听你讲得这么动听

Listening to you speak so beautifully.

这么吸引

So attractive.

或者都应该去听一听

Or maybe everyone should go and listen.

就是在这个人

It's this person.

等于人的剧本里面

In the script of equal to a person.

这一段

This paragraph.

就是

Exactly.

主角怎么看回自己的壮丽

How does the protagonist view their own magnificence?

那种的感受

That kind of feeling.

他怎么去写

How does he write?

来去欣赏一下

Come and enjoy it.

加里基凭什么技艺知道

On what skills does Gary base his knowledge?

他自己就是加里基呢

He himself is Gary Key.

我举个例

Let me give you an example.

如果他的手臂被人砍下来

If his arm were chopped off by someone.

放在墙壤里

Put in the wall soil.

加里基的眼睛

Gary's Eyes

会不会就认得

Will it recognize?

加里基自己的手呢

What about Gary's own hands?

而加里基的脚

And Gary's foot.

就会不会大声地说

Then I won't say it loudly.

喂喂就是那个了

Hey hey, that's the one.

所以

So

我不会看回

I won't look back.

他的棺材里面

Inside his coffin.

而且据我说

Moreover, according to what I said.

是或不是之间的分别

The distinction between yes and no.

也不是那么大

It's not that big either.

如果加里基不是加里基

If Gary Key is not Gary Key.

或者他会是

Or he might be.

某一个女人的儿子

A certain woman's son.

或者一个喜欢喝两杯的儿子

Or a son who enjoys having a couple of drinks.

而这个女人

And this woman.

如果不是这个人的妈妈

If it weren't for this person's mother.

也可能是

It may also be.

第二个人的妈妈

The second person's mother.

也可能那个人

That person might also be.

也是喜欢喝两杯的

Also like to have a couple of drinks.

他又或者是

He might also be.

在三月

In March

而不是在九月出世

instead of being born in September

又如果

Also if

他在今年九月

He in this September.

而不是在三月出世

Instead of being born in March.

又或者

Or perhaps

上一年的九月

September of last year.

已经出世了

Already born.

那就是说

That means.

有一年时间的分别呢

It's been a year since we parted.

就可以将一个人

can turn a person

转为另一个人

Transform into another person.

而我

And I

这个我

This I

和第二个我

And the second me.

都是各有所长而已

They all have their own strengths.

同时由于我从来没试过

At the same time, because I have never tried it.

眼睛盯着那只象

The eyes are fixed on that elephant.

对于我自己的事

Regarding my own matters.

我就会

I can do it.

眼开只眼闭了

One eye open, one eye closed.

不满意自己的地方

Dissatisfied with my own shortcomings.

最好就是没眼睛看

It's best to have no eyes to see.

这样就会开心了嘛

Will this make you happy?

陈清琦说听你介绍布莱希特

Chen Qingqi said to listen to you introduce Brecht.

也是令到听的朋友

It also makes the friends listening.

觉得很吸引

Feels very attractive.

因为他有一种很独特的

Because he has a very unique kind of...

属于自己的戏剧的理论

The theory of one's own drama.

如果下次在香港再有机会

If there is another opportunity in Hong Kong next time.

或者在外地有机会

Or there is an opportunity to be away.

演出布莱希特之后

After the performance of Brecht

就是剧本的时候

It's during the script.

没看过布莱希特戏剧的朋友

Friends who haven't seen Brecht's plays.

你会提议他用什么心情

What mood would you suggest he use?

或者是态度来观赏

Or perhaps it's about the attitude of appreciation.

首先就

First of all,

一定要

Must be.

抱一个很开放

Hug someone who is very open.

去接受一种新的挑战的

To take on a new challenge.

心情

Mood

比例上要放开我们

We need to be more open in terms of proportion.

原来对于戏剧所有的要求和期望

It turns out that all the demands and expectations for drama.

那就

Then let's do it.

抱着一种戏剧不一定是这样

Holding the belief that a drama doesn't necessarily have to be this way.

或者戏剧的表现的

Or the performance of a play.

现实的方式不一定是这样

The realistic way is not necessarily like this.

戏剧里面

In the drama.

的人物不一定是

The character is not necessarily.

这么不像我们

So unlike us.

或者说这么像我们

Or you could say it's so much like us.

要尝试去

Try to go.

接受他里面的一些

Accept some of what is inside him.

不同的表现模式

Different modes of expression

然后再看看

Then take another look.

透过这个模式

Through this model

我可以参与到多少

How much can I be involved?

然后再去

Then go again.

解答下一步的问题

Answer the following question.

主动的参与和思考

Active participation and thinking

也是欣赏布莱希特戏剧的

Also appreciate Brecht's dramas.

一个很重要的关键点

A very important key point.

很感谢陈青桥这么详细

Thank you very much, Chen Qingqiao, for being so detailed.

和我们介绍布莱希特的戏剧

Introduce us to Brecht's drama.

以后的

future

《世界文学之旅》里面

In "A Journey Through World Literature"

作为一个文学研究专家的陈青桥

Chen Qingqiao, as an expert in literary studies.

都希望能够再次和我们讲一讲

Everyone hopes to have the opportunity to speak with us again.

其他地方

Other places

或者其他文化里面的文学作品

Or literary works from other cultures.

今晚谢谢

Thank you tonight.

好 谢谢

Okay, thank you.

《世界文学之旅》

"Journey Through World Literature"

孔祥轻编导

Kong Xiangqing - Director and Screenwriter

倪便利监制

Ni Bianli Supervises

香港电台教育组制作

Produced by the Education Department of Radio Television Hong Kong.

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