Episode 195: 电子书是怎么做出来的

IPN

IT 公论

请不吝点赞订阅转发打赏支持明镜与点点栏目

Please don't hesitate to like, subscribe, share, and support Mingjing and Dandian programs with donations.

订阅转发打赏支持明镜与点点栏目

Subscribe, forward, and support Mingjing and the Diandian program with a reward.

这里有一封是来自一位姓魏的先生

Here is a letter from a Mr. Wei.

这位其实是上次的两位嘉宾的师弟

This person is actually the junior弟弟 of the two guests from last time.

他们都是在这个加州大学伯克莱分校建筑系读书的哈

They are all studying in the architecture department at the University of California, Berkeley.

魏先生是这么说的

Mr. Wei said so.

他说Hi Lawrence 听了这期节目说到建筑

He said, "Hi Lawrence, I listened to this episode about architecture."

很多问题感同身受

Many problems are empathetic.

尤为触动的是节目中将UI设计和建筑发展历史进行了比较

What is particularly moving is that the program compares UI design with the history of architectural development.

比如说提到了建筑发展给UI设计带来的启示

For example, it mentioned the inspiration that architectural development brings to UI design.

建筑经过

Architectural passage

从文艺复兴到现代主义再到后现代主义的发展

The development from the Renaissance to Modernism and then to Postmodernism.

到了今天其实是有明显的分化

As of today, there is actually a clear differentiation.

其中两种极端

Two extreme types.

一种是查赫哈迪德和Frank Gehry的复杂曲面

One is the complex surfaces of Zaha Hadid and Frank Gehry.

另一种很重要的回溯是以Saw Fujimoto为代表的Primitive Architecture

Another important retrospection is Primitive Architecture represented by Saw Fujimoto.

他想象人类像鸟一样住在树上

He imagines humans living in trees like birds.

追求一种与自然和人类本能的重新融合

Pursuing a reconnection with nature and human instincts.

这一点我觉得和Steve Jobs所谓

I believe this is related to what Steve Jobs referred to.

人类的原始本能与手机交互的说辞是一举同工的

The primitive instincts of humans and the rhetoric of interacting with mobile phones are quite similar.

至于后来提到的由于生产空间的进化

As for the later mention of the evolution of production space

导致建筑空间中纪念性或者说固定性的丢失

Causing the loss of monumentality or fixity in architectural spaces.

这其实在建筑上已经有许多前辈在努力了

Many predecessors have actually been working hard on this in architecture.

特别是上世纪50年代末到70年代初的情境主义运动

Especially the situationist movement from the late 1950s to the early 1970s.

也就是Situationist

That is to say, Situationist.

他在建筑界也有自己的投影

He also has his own influence in the architecture industry.

无论是Constant Nubis的New Babylon

Whether it's Constant Nubis's New Babylon

亦或是Jonah Friedman提出的View Spatiale

Or it could be the View Spatiale proposed by Jonah Friedman.

也就是法文的Special City空间城市

That is the French term "Special City" referring to a space city.

以及他们影响的Super Studio

And the Super Studio they influenced.

试图将纪念性重新带回的巨构

The monumental structure attempting to bring back commemoration.

其实都是对于这类问题的直接回应

In fact, it is a direct response to this type of question.

而您和嘉宾们提到的模块化建筑

The modular construction you and the guests mentioned.

我并不认为这是未来发展的趋势

I do not believe this is the trend for future development.

问题正如嘉宾们所说

The issue is as the guests mentioned.

其实最大的问题不是个人对于个人标志性的需求

In fact, the biggest issue is not the individual's demand for personal insignia.

问题正如嘉宾们所说其实最大的问题不是个人对于个人标志性的需求

The problem, as the guests mentioned, is that the biggest issue is not the individual’s iconic needs towards others.

而来自于标准化空间对于日常生活的极大限制

This is due to the significant restrictions that standardized spaces impose on daily life.

是先有了方块在为之设计生活

It is the square that exists first, and then life is designed around it.

还是有了生活在设计空间

Still living in the design space.

这种错位导致使用性很低

This misalignment leads to very low usability.

比如先驱者和Noise Space Block

For example, Pioneer and Noise Space Block.

现在的费用就是一个例子

The current cost is just an example.

但是目前还是有很多建筑师

But there are still many architects at present.

甚至是知名建筑师正在为此努力

Even well-known architects are striving for this.

比如就在我居所附近

For example, it's just near my residence.

由Berkeley的教授Stanley Saitowitz设计的

Garden Village

目前还在建造中

Currently under construction.

运气好的话可以看到巨大的吊臂将模块化盒子进行堆叠的过程

If you're lucky, you can see the huge crane stacking the modular boxes.

至于集装箱对于低收入阶层的收纳

As for the storage of containers for low-income groups.

Oakland那些低廉的集装箱住宅就是最好的例子

The inexpensive container homes in Oakland are the best example.

至于虚拟现实的使用

As for the use of virtual reality.

当前最直接的应用应该就是让顾客在家买房吧

The most direct application right now should be allowing customers to buy houses from home.

美国不少房产公司比如Halsted Property

Many property companies in the U.S., such as Halsted Property.

在曼哈顿和佛罗里达已经实现了

Achieved in Manhattan and Florida.

这位

This person

听众

Audience

提到了很多这个建筑的例子

Many examples of this building have been mentioned.

他也给出了链接

He also provided the link.

我们会把这些链接都放到本期的网站上

We will put all these links on this issue's website.

请大家去查看

Please go and check.

还有一位朋友是姓曹的

There is another friend whose last name is Cao.

他也是通过email跟我们写的反馈

He also provided feedback to us via email.

因为我们在上一期提到了这个华裔建筑师林英

Because we mentioned the Chinese architect Lin Ying in the last issue.

他做的在那个美国华府的那个越战纪念碑

He did that at the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington, D.C.

然后曹先生是针对这一点写的反馈

Then Mr. Cao wrote feedback regarding this point.

他说关于越战纪念碑

He talked about the Vietnam War Memorial.

在第194期IT公论

In Issue 194 of IT Commentary

如何在露营时继续玩PS4里面

How to continue playing PS4 while camping?

你们讨论了越战纪念碑

You discussed the Vietnam War Memorial.

我觉得有许多值得添加的东西

I think there are many things worth adding.

我的个人感觉

My personal feeling.

他给人最大的震撼在于

The greatest shock he gives to people lies in

他是按时间顺序去展开的

He unfolds in chronological order.

纪念碑上人的名字是按照牺牲的时间顺序来排列的

The names of the people on the monument are arranged in the order of their sacrifice.

从刚开始脚下纪念碑旁的几个人

A few people by the monument at the very beginning.

到后来比人还高的一面墙上

On the wall that is taller than a person later on.

密密麻麻的人民

Dense population

再想想这些人民后面

Think again about the people behind these.

都是一个个鲜活的世界

They are all vibrant worlds, one by one.

生命

Life

战争的惨烈

The brutality of war.

似乎如在眼前

It seems just like being in front of me.

仿佛能看到越战从刚开始到中间打得如火如荼

It feels as if I can see the Vietnam War from its beginning to its peak, with fierce fighting.

年轻的生命不断在战争机器里血肉横飞

Young lives are constantly being torn apart in the machinery of war.

通过这个纪念碑

Through this monument

似乎能看到战争的开始与发展

It seems possible to see the beginning and development of the war.

我觉得曹先生的这个体会

I think Mr. Cao's experience is...

其实就很能说明问题

It actually illustrates the problem quite well.

就是如我们上期在节目里所讲

Just like we mentioned in our last episode.

这个纪念碑跟一般意义上的纪念碑是很不一样的

This monument is very different from the usual type of monument.

就是他他不是

It's just that he is not.

大家可能想象一个

Everyone may imagine one.

说到纪念碑

Speaking of monuments.

大家想象是一个竖着

Everyone imagines it is vertical.

立起来的东西

Something that stands up.

但这个林英的这个越战纪念碑

But this Lin Ying's Vietnam War memorial

他完全是一个从外表看很低调

He completely appears to be low-key on the outside.

而且甚至可以说很不起眼的一个形态

Moreover, it can even be said to be a very inconspicuous form.

这个具体大家可以去

You can go to this specific place.

如果没听过的话

If you haven't heard of it.

可以去听一百四十九

You can go listen to one hundred forty-nine.

一百九十四期的IT功论

IT Theory Issue 194

但是就简简单单的是一面横在地上的墙上面印了很多名字

But simply put, it's a wall lying on the ground with many names printed on it.

就可以让曹先生有这样丰富的体会

This can allow Mr. Cao to have such rich experiences.

可见这个建筑其实是有相当深刻的功力

It can be seen that this building actually possesses quite profound skill.

在背后

Behind.

的

好的

Okay.

非常感谢这两位听众的反馈

Thank you very much for the feedback from these two listeners.

如果您对我们的节目有意见或者建议的话

If you have any comments or suggestions about our program

也可以写email到it公论atipn.li

You can also send an email to [email protected].

好的

Okay.

那我们开始今天的节目

Then let's start today's program.

今天有一位新的嘉宾

Today there is a new guest.

你自己介绍一下自己吧

Introduce yourself.

哈喽大家好

Hello everyone!

我是罗一文

I am Luo Yiwen.

我之前在西雅图的amazon工作

I used to work at Amazon in Seattle.

我所工作的那个team是kindle team

The team I work for is the Kindle team.

所以我过去几年做了很多

So I have done a lot in the past few years.

kindle在不同平台上的客户端

Kindle clients on different platforms.

很高兴今天能够来IT功论

I am very happy to be here today for the IT discussion.

罗一文是我跟罗一文有很多缘分

Luo Yiwen and I have a lot of fate together.

我们都在武汉出生

We were all born in Wuhan.

然后都在很小的时候

Then they were all very young.

就基本属于还是一团肉的那种状态的时候

When it basically still belongs to a state of being a lump of flesh.

就去了深圳

Then went to Shenzhen.

然后我们都在深圳长大

Then we all grew up in Shenzhen.

但后来的人生轨迹就不太一样

But the trajectory of life later became quite different.

但是现在两个人又同时在湾区

But now both of them are in the Bay Area at the same time again.

你现在是做什么

What are you doing now?

我现在在google上班

I am currently working at Google.

我依然是个程序员

I am still a programmer.

然后我做的产品是inbox

Then the product I made is called inbox.

就是

That's it.

gmail的gmail team下面的一个产品

A product under the Gmail team of Gmail.

对

Yes.

我觉得很多人可能比较羡慕你

I think many people might be envious of you.

因为你你做的这两个产品都是属于那种

Because the two products you made are both of that kind.

你知道吧

You know, right?

就是直接跟用户打交道的产品

It is a product that directly interacts with users.

就你你跑出来跟别人说

Just you running out to tell others.

你说哇

You say wow.

是吧

Is that so?

就是会知道

It will be known.

而且很可能他们正在用你的产品

And it's very likely that they are using your product.

对啊

Yeah.

我做的产品主要都是focus在前端一点

The products I create mainly focus on the front end.

所以我也很幸运

So I am also very lucky.

可以做这种用户量比较大的产品

Can create products with a larger user base.

嗯

Hmm.

所以

呃

很幸运

Very lucky.

很显然我们找这个

It's obvious that we are looking for this.

大家应该是如果我们的老听众应该是比较有经验的哈

Everyone should be more experienced if our old listeners are around.

就是

That's it.

如果一个人现在正在做google inbox

If a person is currently using Google Inbox.

那他很显然是不能够谈关于google inbox的事情的

Then it is obvious that he cannot talk about Google Inbox.

那一文以前是在做kindle的呢

That article used to be about Kindle.

很显然我们今天的话题会跟电子书有关系

It is obvious that our topic today will be related to e-books.

呃

是这样的

It is like this.

我们觉得其实在it攻略里我们讨论过很多关于电子书的话题

We feel that we have actually discussed many topics about e-books in the IT strategy.

可能很多人也知道我以前也做做字节社是做跟电子书相关的一些东西

Many people might also know that I previously worked at ByteDance, focusing on things related to e-books.

呃

我本人也一直很关注这个领域的一些发展

I have also been paying close attention to some developments in this field.

呃

但是有时候会有这样一种情况

But sometimes there will be such a situation.

就是找很多写文章的人也是这样

That's how it is when looking for many writers as well.

就是你会觉得有一个话题已经肯定被写烂了

You might think that a topic has definitely been overwritten.

对吧

Right?

你想电子书如果从kindle2007年底

Do you want e-books since the end of 2007 from Kindle?

呃

Uh.

推出那个第一代的kindle硬件阅读器开始算

It started with the launch of the first-generation Kindle e-reader.

我们把07年算为这个这个新一代的电子书的这个革命的开端的话

If we consider 2007 as the beginning of this new generation of e-book revolution, then...

那也已经很久了

That was also a long time ago.

对吧

Right?

嗯

Uh-huh.

已经已经已经已经快要十年了

It has already been almost ten years.

十年了

Ten years.

对

Correct.

所以那么大家都会觉得说

So everyone will feel that...

我们因为现在很多人就买电子书已经很正常了嘛

It's quite normal for many people to buy e-books now.

不像五六年前跟大家会讨论说

Unlike five or six years ago when we would discuss it with everyone,

哎呀

Oh dear.

我这个我应该去哪家买啊

Which store should I go to buy this?

对吧

Right?

现在很多人可能已经在他们自己最爱的平台上已经买了很多书

Many people may have already purchased a lot of books on their favorite platforms.

就其实已经被绑定在一个个平台上了

It has already been bound to a platform.

就是这已经成为一件

This has already become a matter.

大家知道怎么做

Everyone knows how to do it.

不需要别人教

No need for others to teach.

也不需要太多犹豫的事情

There's no need to hesitate too much about it.

但是其实我猜想

But actually, I guess.

很多人对于一本电子书是怎么被制作出来的

Many people are curious about how an e-book is created.

其实并不是特别了解

Actually, I don't really understand.

这个过程其实非常的复杂

This process is actually very complex.

可以说就是

It can be said that...

呃

Uh.

他他并不属于那种

He does not belong to that kind.

比如说是很难的数学题

For example, it's a very difficult math problem.

或者很深奥的物理

Or very profound physics.

这个研究问题

This research question

不是那样的东西

It's not that kind of thing.

但是他整个过程

But his whole process

其实可以说相当的繁琐

In fact, it can be said to be quite complicated.

牵涉了不同的工种

Involved different types of work.

呃

Uh.

不同的技能

Different skills

然后也涉及到各种各样的institution

It also involves various kinds of institutions.

比如说出版社是一种institution

For example, a publishing house is a type of institution.

对吧

Right?

科技公司是一种institution

Technology companies are a type of institution.

呃

作家经济

Writer's economy

诸如此类的吧

Things like this, right?

所以今天我们请罗一文来上节目

So today we invited Luo Yiwen to be on the show.

我我跟他我们我们一起吧

Let's go together with him and us.

跟大家来剖析一下

Let's analyze it together.

这究竟一本电子书是怎么做出来的

How is this electronic book actually made?

所以我们直接开始吧

So let's get started directly.

那个

That one.

我们应该从哪开始呢

Where should we start?

如果是你

If it is you

因为因为今天其实我们有个分工哈

Because today we actually have a division of labor.

罗一文是程序员

Luo Yiwen is a programmer.

所以他对他他对于这个

So he for him, he for this.

电子书的软件

E-book software

也就是比如说我们用的kindle

For example, we use a Kindle.

或者像ibooks

Or like iBooks.

呃

诸如此类的

Such things as these.

他会非常的熟悉

He will be very familiar.

那我的话呢

What about my words?

我可能

I might.

主要讲的是

Mainly talks about

再往前的部分

The part further ahead.

就是当一本书被写出来之后

Once a book is written and published.

他应该以什么样的方式交付给

In what manner should he deliver it?

呃

Uh.

出版社

Publishing house

然后出版社以一种什么样的方式

Then, in what way did the publisher...

把它交付给像kindle

Deliver it to something like Kindle.

ibooks这样的公司

Companies like iBooks

对

Correct.

所以呃

So, uh...

罗一文我不知道你对于这个

Luo Yiwen, I don't know what you think about this.

我是我刚才说的后面这一部分

I am the latter part of what I just said.

你熟不熟悉

Are you familiar with it?

呃

你说交付的这个部分吗

Are you talking about this part of the delivery?

还是

still

嗯

Hmm.

我我所我的了解主要是在于我们

My understanding mainly lies in us.

呃像比如说像kindle

Uh, for example, like Kindle.

他会提供各种各样提供各种各样的呃工具让呃让出版社或者是让作者直接呃上传一个电子书文件给我们

He will provide a variety of tools for publishers or authors to directly upload an eBook file to us.

然后我们再通过我们的方式把他转成kindle可以用的格式

Then we will convert it into a format that can be used on Kindle in our own way.

然后呃

Then, uh.

然后再通过kindle呃电子书阅读器或者是通过apps来呈现给我们的用户

Then present it to our users through the Kindle e-reader or through apps.

这个部分我稍有了解

I have a slight understanding of this part.

Okay

所以大家刚才听罗一文的说

So everyone just listened to what Luo Yiwen said.

这个描述其实大概应该有一点点概念啊

This description should actually have a little bit of concept.

就是其实这里分成几部分

Actually, it is divided into several parts here.

一部分就是我们最终用到的那个电子书的软件

One part is the software for the e-book that we ultimately use.

比如kindle

For example, Kindle.

那个那个app

That app.

我们下头从app store下载的app

The app we downloaded from the App Store below.

呃

或者包括你买一个硬件的kindle

Or it could include buying a hardware Kindle.

然后这里面那里面他他是一个单一功能的吧

Then inside that, he has a single function, right?

他不像那个tablet和智能手机是可以干很多事情

He is not like that tablet and smartphone, which can do many things.

他只用来看电子书的

He only uses it to read e-books.

里面仍然是有软件的

There is still software inside.

对吧

Right?

这是一部分还有一部分就是说那个书的本体就是以其实就是一个文本文件了

This is one part, and another part is that the essence of the book is essentially just a text file.

但是他的格式可能

But his format might be

比如大家熟悉的文本文件可能是word的格式

For example, the text files that everyone is familiar with may be in Word format.

.doc这样的格式

Formats like .doc

呃

还有就是我相信大家多少都下过盗版电子书啊

I believe that everyone has probably downloaded pirated e-books to some extent.

盗版电子书很常见的一个格式是pdf

A common format for pirated e-books is PDF.

对吧

Right?

所以当一般人想到一本书的时候

So when an average person thinks of a book,

可能首先想一本电子书的时候

When you first think of an ebook.

他首先想到那个文件格式是pdf

He first thought that the file format was PDF.

但是呃

But uh

其实每一个不同的这个电子书的阅读软件

In fact, each different e-book reading software.

他都有自己的格式

He has his own format.

虽然这个格式在底层基本上是统一的

Although this format is fundamentally unified at the bottom layer.

比如统成epub啊

For example, unify into epub.

mobi啊这些

Mobi and these.

但是

But

呃

比如像ibooks和kindle他们所用的格式其实都多多少少有他们自己的一个定制化吧

For example, the formats used by iBooks and Kindle are somewhat customized in their own ways.

所以

呃

罗一关要不你来介绍一下像这个kindle的格式他用的是什么

Luo Yiguang, why don't you introduce what format is used for something like this Kindle?

呃kindle的话

Uh, regarding Kindle...

呃

如果你在早期的时候看kindle电子书的格式的话

If you look at the format of Kindle eBooks in the early days,

你可能会看到他是一个acw的文件

You might see that he is an ACW file.

呃

当然啊

Of course!

kindle的那个kindle的这个阅读器就是早期的那种e-ink的电子模学的阅读器

The Kindle reading device is an early type of e-ink electronic reader.

他是可以打开pdf

He can open the PDF.

也是卡可以打开txt的

The card can also open txt files.

嗯

Hmm.

那现在的话因为呃我们提供的内容会越来越多

Well, now because the content we provide will be increasing more and more.

比如说我们现在提供的漫画呀还有杂志呀还有教科书这一类的内容

For example, the comics, magazines, and textbooks that we are currently offering.

我们会在原先的格式上面加一些呃更丰富的东西

We will add some richer elements on top of the original format.

然后从而产生新的格式

Then a new format is generated.

你刚刚提到说你们会有一个这种用来制作电子书文件的一个工具提供给出版社对吧

You just mentioned that you will provide a tool for creating electronic book files to publishers, right?

呃我以前我其实看过一个

Uh, I actually saw one before.

就几年前哈我看过一个文档

A few years ago, I read a document.

它不是一个工具

It is not a tool.

它是一个word文件

It is a Word document.

然后这里面描述了说

Then it describes that

呃比如说你一本小说写好了之后

Uh, for example, after you finish writing a novel...

你应该用什么样的方法把它制作成一个为kindle准备的文件

What kind of method should you use to create a file prepared for Kindle?

我不知道你说的工具是指那个规则

I don't know which rule you are referring to with the tool you mentioned.

那份规范指南呢

What about that guideline?

还是说现在有一个像软件一样的东西是用来制作kindle电子书的

Or is there now a software-like tool for creating Kindle eBooks?

呃有很多种吧

Uh, there are many kinds.

我不是很具体的了解

I don't understand very specifically.

但是就我在那里工作的时候

But when I was working there

呃我所了解到首先是呃kindle还有自己的kindle direct publishing platform

Uh, what I understand is that first, uh, Kindle also has its own Kindle Direct Publishing platform.

就是我们简称kdp就是他自己会跟很多作者合作直接合作

We simply call it KDP, which collaborates directly with many authors.

然后给他们一个平台和工具来呃上传自己的电子书

Then provide them with a platform and tools to upload their own e-books.

那同时还有很多转码的工具

There are also many transcoding tools available.

等我说转码的时候就是相当于是转格式

When I say transcoding, I mean format conversion.

比如说出版商会给你提供一个epop格式

For example, the publisher will provide you with an ePub format.

然后你可以把它通过一个软件或者是一个工具把它转成嗯kindle可以支持的模式格式这样子

Then you can use a software or tool to convert it into a format that is compatible with Kindle.

嗯对

Yes.

其实转码这个说法就有点奇异

In fact, the term "transcoding" is somewhat strange.

因为对转码可能会让人想到是什么

Because the concept of transcoding might lead people to wonder what it is.

比如说这个utf-8和gb2312这些码

For example, these codes like UTF-8 and GB2312.

但他其实是转格式对对对

But he is actually about format conversion, right?

后来说转格式我觉得是是是更准确的说法吧

Later, I think saying "convert the format" is a more accurate way to put it.

就是说大家可以想一下就是我我相信可能绝大多数的作者他交稿时候他用的是word对吧

What I mean is that everyone can consider that I believe most authors probably submit their manuscripts using Word, right?

然后你把这个word给了这个word文件给了出版社

Then you gave this Word file to the publisher.

然后出版社因为现在至少没有现在没有很少就大部分书是不会说只出电子书而不出纸书的嘛

Then the publisher, for now at least, rarely produces books that are only available as e-books without also releasing a print version.

出版社那里那要出纸书的话呢

If the publisher wants to release a paperback, what should be done?

他可能要把这份文稿放到indesign里面对吧

He might want to put this document into InDesign, right?

indesign就是adobe出的一个排版软件

InDesign is a typesetting software released by Adobe.

然后排排排排排有的时候其实最终那个因为这个书稿出来会要校对的嘛

Then, sometimes, it ends up that the manuscript has to be proofread.

这个校对的过程有可能是在纸上进行的

This proofreading process may be conducted on paper.

就他那个初始的那个排版排好了之后把它打印出来

After he has finalized the initial layout, print it out.

然后校对在纸上就是有特别是有一些这个历史比较悠久的出版社

Then, proofreading on paper is particularly important, especially for some publishers with a long history.

现在肯定很多教队还是用纸笔的工作的嘛

Now many coaching teams are definitely still using pen and paper for their work.

他纸上把一个个这个

He writes one by one on the paper.

错字列出来

List out the typo.

然后最终负责主板的那个人很可能就是设计师

Then the person ultimately responsible for the motherboard is likely the designer.

他在坐在电脑前面面对那个indesign文件就把这个错字改掉

He sat in front of the computer and corrected the typo in that InDesign file.

然后这里其实造成了一个情况

Then this actually created a situation here.

就是这个最终的呃就是supposedly没有错字的版本

This is the final version that supposedly has no typos.

他并没有一个纯文并没有一个文本文件

He does not have a pure text file.

他只存在于那个indesign里面

He only exists in that InDesign.

这就是如果一个出版社他的习惯很好的话

This is how a publisher behaves well.

他可能会想办法怎么再导出一份文件

He might try to find a way to export another copy of the document.

或者导出一份txt或者什么也好

Or export a txt file or anything will do.

然后他可能有一个专门的目录是用来存这些这些文件的对吧

Then he might have a dedicated directory for storing these files, right?

呃

但我相信这个首先这这些做法这些实践是没有标准的

But I believe that these practices and methods do not have standards.

就并没有一个什么呃什么机构来规定说哦

There isn't really an institution to dictate that, oh.

你为了适应这个电子出版的这个怎么说要求

You are adapting to the requirements of this electronic publishing.

所以我们的整个工作流程应该怎么怎么样

So how should our entire workflow be structured?

就算有这样的机构

Even if there is such an organization.

这样有这样的规定

There are such regulations.

大部分出版社也未必会去遵循

Most publishers may not necessarily follow this either.

所以就造成一个情况就是说

So it has created a situation where...

嗯

Hmm.

一本书

A book

他原始最原始的那个没有错误的版本

The most original version of him that has no mistakes.

他的格式很可能是未知的

His format is likely unknown.

然后这个时候比如说像kindle提出这种要求说

Then at this moment, for example, if Kindle makes such a request.

你应该把你的这个文件转成一个像你之前说的azw

You should convert this document of yours into an azw format like you mentioned before.

或者说mobi或者说什么

Or say mobi or what.

呃

这里的情况就真的非常非常复杂

The situation here is really, really complicated.

我觉得因为因为很多时候出版社他要打交道的可能不只是亚马逊一家嘛

I think that because many times publishers may have to deal with more than just Amazon.

他可能也想在ibooks上

He might also want to be on iBooks.

那ibooks他官方支持的

That iBooks is officially supported.

他主要支持的这个文件

The document he primarily supports.

文件格式就是epub

The file format is epub.

呃

平线而论epub可能目前来讲

In terms of the horizon, EPUB may be relevant at the moment.

他应该是属于排名第一的一个电子书的格式

He should belong to the number one eBook format.

他是最主流的

He is the most mainstream.

他比mobi要主流

He is more mainstream than mobi.

然后azw那是kindle自己的专有格式

Then azw is Kindle's own proprietary format.

那就另说了

That's another story.

所以很可能我猜测很多专设

So it is likely that I suspect many special setups.

他可能在用那个in design排版的时候

He might be using that InDesign for layout design.

他同时可能会出一个epub的版本

He may also release an epub version at the same time.

准备着对吧

Ready, right?

对

Yes.

可能这个时候就会导致你刚才提到的说出版社会给你一个epub

This might lead to what you just mentioned, that the publishing company will give you an epub.

然后你们还要再经过一道转码的就是转格式的过程

Then you still have to go through a transcoding process, which is the format conversion.

把epub再转成你们自己需要的格式

Convert the epub into the format you need.

对吧

Right?

对的

That's right.

呃

前面说到说我们可能需要作者上传azw的这个格式

It was mentioned earlier that we may need the author to upload the azw format.

这个部分我其实不太确定

I'm actually not very sure about this part.

呃

我觉得可能更多的情况会是我自己猜测

I think it might be more of a situation where I am guessing myself.

更多的情况会是呃

More often it will be uh.

一个作者他自己或者是一个作者

An author himself or an author.

一个出版社

A publishing house

他提供一个epub的版本

He provides an epub version.

然后再交给ibooks或者是交给kindle

Then hand it over to iBooks or to Kindle.

然后我们kindle

Then we kindle.

或者是ibooks内部会有其他的tool

Or there might be other tools within iBooks.

把它转成相应的

Turn it into the corresponding one.

我们能够各自支持的格式

The formats we can each support.

对呃

Uh, sure.

但问题是这个你想一本书有十万字几十万字这样的

But the problem is that you want a book with hundreds of thousands of words.

然后这个这种自动转换其实是让人非常不放心的

Then this kind of automatic conversion is actually very unsettling.

你知道吗

Do you know?

就如果这个作者是一个比较techsavvy的作者的话

If this author is a relatively tech-savvy author, then...

他会很如果是我的话

He would be very if it were me.

我会很担心这种转码这个转格式的过程中会不会出现什么问题

I will be very worried about whether any issues will arise during the process of transcoding and format conversion.

呃

但是另一方面呢

But on the other hand

其实绝大多数的作者他不会思考这些事儿

In fact, the vast majority of authors do not think about these matters.

他他做的就是说我把我的那份word交给了出版社

What he said is that I have submitted my copy of the Word document to the publisher.

那我的责任到此就终止了

Then my responsibility ends here.

我的工作已经完成了

My work is done.

那剩下的ok

That's fine for the rest.

我跟你的合同里规定了说我的数字版权也给了你

The contract between you and me stipulates that my digital rights are also granted to you.

给了出版社对吧

Gave it to the publisher, right?

出版社会帮你在kindle

The publisher will help you with Kindle.

ibooks各种各样的这种平台上发行

Released on various platforms like iBooks.

那么我的这个word最终是怎么变成了为ibooks准备的epub格式

So how did my Word document ultimately turn into an EPUB format prepared for iBooks?

然后为kindle准备的azw格式

Then prepare the azw format for Kindle.

这些事情跟我就没关系了

These matters have nothing to do with me.

然后这些时候

Then, during these times.

出版社往往会再找一个中间人

Publishers often find another intermediary.

就是叫像国内有很多这种专门做这种他们叫数据处理的这种公司啊

There are many companies in China that specialize in this kind of data processing.

呃

包括kindle在中国也是跟这样的公司合作的

Including Kindle, it also cooperates with such companies in China.

就是当然在中国这些公司还有另外一个功能

Of course, these companies in China also serve another function.

就是帮你拿到电子书的这个书号

It's just to help you obtain the book number for the e-book.

这件事情就是中国独有的一个一个要求哈

This matter is a unique requirement specific to China.

但是就算没有书号的限制

But even without the restriction of a book number.

就是很多时候他是需要这么一个一个公司来帮你进行这种转码的工作

Many times he needs a company to help him with this transcoding work.

因为老实说你拿到的原始的文本可能是千奇百怪的

Because, to be honest, the original text you received might be quite bizarre.

里面有很多

There are many inside.

脏的地方要你去把它清理掉

You need to clean up the dirty places.

所以这些事情都涉及很多繁琐

So these matters involve a lot of complexities.

而且是没有什么技术含量的手工人工的工作

Moreover, it is a manual job that does not require much technical skill.

嗯

Um.

那ok

That's okay.

我们现在假设说这些工作都已经完成了

Let's assume that all this work has been completed now.

不管是这个作者自己做的

Whether it's done by the author themselves.

出版社做的

Done by the publisher.

还是请这种数据处理公司做的

It's still better to have this type of data processing done by a company.

一个word文档已经变成了一个非常干净

A Word document has become very clean.

非常完美的一个azw格式

A very perfect azw format.

一个kindle的格式

A Kindle format

那么接下来你们要做什么

So what are you going to do next?

呃

接下来的话

The following words.

我们会需要把它

We will need to take it.

因为我们要给他做一个很精致的文档

Because we need to create a very exquisite document for him.

给他提供给我们所有的用户

Provide him with all the users we have.

那我们首先得把它放到我们的服务器上

Then we need to put it on our server first.

那放到服务器上的同时

At the same time as it is uploaded to the server

我们需要经过加密压缩

We need to go through encryption and compression.

然后经过经过一些特殊的处理

Then after some special processing.

把这个原先的那个格式

Change it back to the original format.

原先这个azw的格式变成一种可以方便传输的格式

Originally, this azw format has been transformed into a format suitable for easy transmission.

嗯

Hmm.

对

Yes.

哎

Sigh.

稍等一下

Wait a moment.

你你这个可以方便传输指的是什么

What do you mean by "this can facilitate transmission"?

呃

Uh.

比如说比如说你在你在网络端的加密啊

For example, let's say you have encryption on your network side.

因为我们知道所有的电子书下载的时候

Because we know that all e-books are downloaded when

都是通过互联网下载的

They are all downloaded from the Internet.

呃

Uh.

当然早期的时候你可能可以在网上下载

Of course, in the early days you could download it online.

然后传到你的kindle或者是电子书里面

Then transfer it to your Kindle or e-book.

电子书阅读器里面

Inside the e-reader

但是现在通常你都是通过互联网下载的

But now you usually download it through the internet.

那

That

那我我还我要说明一下

Then I still want to clarify something.

你刚才指的这两种你刚才那个措辞

The two types you just mentioned in your phrasing.

可能有些人会不太明白

Some people may not understand it very well.

就是译文说的是

The translation says:

一种是你下到电脑上

One way is to download it onto your computer.

然后比如说通过usb线传到你的软件里

Then, for example, transfer it to your software through a USB cable.

对吧

Right?

对

Yes.

还有一种是直接你在移动设备

There is also a way where you directly do it on your mobile device.

或者电子墨水阅读器上就直接联网下载

Or you can directly connect to the internet to download on the e-ink reader.

对

Correct.

他说的是这两个的区别

He is talking about the difference between these two.

对

Yes.

因为早期的时候

Because in the early days

呃

其实现在有的时候可能在有些阅读器上

Actually, sometimes now on some e-readers...

依然可以做到的事情

Things that can still be done.

就是我们叫做silode

This is what we call silode.

比如说你在网上下一个叫txt的文件

For example, you download a file called txt from the internet.

或者加一个pdf

Or add a PDF.

然后你可以连接

Then you can connect.

你通过usb线连接你的阅读器

You connect your reader via a USB cable.

然后把它拖拽到你这个阅读器里面的一个文件夹

Then drag it into a folder in your reader.

然后你就可以在你的阅读器上面看到这个文件的内容

Then you can see the contents of this file on your reader.

早期很多的盗版电子书都是这样传播的

In the early days, many pirated e-books were spread like this.

这个问题其实是个挺重要的问题

This question is actually quite an important one.

对吧

Right?

因为因为siloding的这个问题其实是个跟权力相关的问题

Because this issue of siloding is actually related to power.

对吧

Right?

尤其在在中国我相信就是像你我这一代人

Especially in China, I believe it is people of our generation, like you and me.

我们都是习惯了从小玩电脑

We are all used to playing on the computer since we were kids.

siloding应该是属于default

Siloding should belong to the default.

应该是默认的状态

It should be the default state.

对吧

Right?

对非常正常的一个一个情况

A very normal situation.

在美国也会有很多

There will also be a lot in the United States.

对就是你觉得很难想象我买了一个设备

Yes, it is hard for you to imagine that I bought a device.

然后我没有办法通过某种方式

Then I have no way to do it in some way.

把我电脑上的现成的文件把它传到这个设备里

Transfer the existing files from my computer to this device.

这个整个这种

This whole thing.

电脑使用的哲学跟乔布斯所鼓吹的那一套其实是很不一样的

The philosophy of using computers is actually quite different from what Jobs advocated.

对吧

Right?

乔布斯是觉得就是说这些东西应该尽量的让它简单

Jobs believed that these things should be made as simple as possible.

就是哪怕一开始你想这个iPhone其实是过了好多年以后才能够

Even if at the beginning you think this iPhone actually won't be available until many years later.

就比如说更新iOS的时候是可以不连电脑的

For example, you can update iOS without connecting to a computer.

对吧

Right?

早年都是要连电脑的嘛

In the early years, it was necessary to connect to the computer, right?

但是你可以看到从一开始就是在苹果的想象里

But you can see it was in Apple's imagination from the very beginning.

这个才是一个应有的状态

This is the proper state that it should be in.

对

Yes.

而你说的siloding就是从电脑里传一个东西到移动设备上

What you refer to as "siloding" is transferring something from a computer to a mobile device.

对吧

Right?

就是一个不得已而为之的一个状态

It is a situation that is done out of necessity.

所以这里是有一个电脑使用哲学上的一个差别

So there is a philosophical difference regarding the use of computers here.

所以你继续就是说你说就有这两种下载的区别

So you continue to say that there are these two kinds of download differences.

然后你提到说这个因为有加密

Then you mentioned that this is because of encryption.

所以你要使得它这个下载能够变得比较顺畅

So you need to ensure that the download can become smoother.

这个具体指的是什么呢

What does this specifically refer to?

有加密的话可以使下载变得比较安全

Using encryption can make downloads relatively secure.

就比如说因为毕竟它是来自出版社的一个文件

For example, it is after all a document from the publisher.

然后来自出版社的内容

Then the content from the publisher.

那我们知道在互联网上几乎所有的内容

Then we know that almost all content on the internet

就是几乎所有有出版商的内容都不是你可以任意下载的

Almost all content from publishers is not something you can download at will.

你都是需要经过正常途径去下载的

You need to download it through the proper channels.

那需要经过一定的加密

That requires a certain level of encryption.

然后通过一些手段才能够保证安全的传输给用户

Then, through some means, it can ensure safe transmission to the user.

其实这也就是一个跟DRM相关的部分

Actually, this is just a part related to DRM.

对DRM当然就是我是不喜欢的

Of course, I don't like DRM.

我相信我们的大多数听众也并不喜欢DRM这种东西

I believe most of our audience does not like DRM either.

但是

But

我必须提出如果你站在

I must raise the issue if you stand at

怎么说那个Alan Kay

How to say that Alan Kay?

那个电脑先锋有一句名言

That computer pioneer has a famous quote.

他说你只要转换一下视角

He said you just need to change your perspective.

就转换视角这个动作

Just the action of changing perspective.

它就值75个IQ点

It is worth 75 IQ points.

大家不是说智商高低吗

Aren't people always talking about the differences in IQ?

他说你只要转换一下视角

He said you just need to change your perspective.

你的智商就高了75个点

Your IQ has increased by 75 points.

就说我们如果站在出版社的角度来看

Just say that if we look at it from the perspective of the publisher.

你就完全可以理解为什么他们需要DRM

You can completely understand why they need DRM.

比如说

For example.

MIT Press大名鼎鼎对吧

MIT Press is famous, right?

除了很多关于媒体技术艺术方面的好书

In addition to many good books on media technology and art.

他们到现在他们不上

They haven't gone up until now.

反正Kindle好像是没有他们的书的

Anyway, it seems that Kindle doesn't have their books.

然后他们有自己做电子书

Then they made their own e-books.

而他们的电子书完全就丧心病狂

And their e-books are completely outrageous.

他们是PDF文件

They are PDF files.

然后他是有加了DRM的PDF文件

Then he added a DRM-protected PDF file.

所以他必须用Adobe Digital Editions那个软件才能够打开

So he must use the Adobe Digital Editions software to open it.

虽然那个软件是免费的

Although that software is free.

所有人都可以去Adobe的网站上下载

Everyone can download it from Adobe's website.

但是就很少有人用那个软件

But very few people use that software.

比如说像Mac上面默认的PDF阅读器是Preview嘛

For example, the default PDF reader on Mac is Preview.

就是叫预览的那个软件

It's the software called Preview.

你如果在MIT Press的网站上买了一本PDF

If you bought a PDF from the MIT Press website.

你用Preview是打不开的

You can't open it with Preview.

我有一个朋友最近就是

I have a friend who recently...

这位朋友还是做技术这个圈的

This friend is still in the tech field.

他就觉得用户体验很差

He feels that the user experience is very poor.

我买了一本书下载

I bought a book to download.

说怎么打不开啊

Why can't it be opened?

这是个很奇怪的格式

This is a very strange format.

他那个后缀名不是PDF你知道吧

You know that his file extension is not PDF, right?

所以DRM就会给我们带来这样的问题

So DRM will bring us such problems.

但是就如刚才罗一文所说

But just as Luo Yiwen mentioned earlier.

出版社出的书

Books published by the publisher.

有版权的书

Copyrighted books

如果你站在出版社的角度考虑

If you consider it from the perspective of a publisher.

你是会担心的

You will be worried.

因为出版社毕竟也是一个机构

Because a publishing house is, after all, an organization.

也是一个办公室

It is also an office.

就是传统的办公室里所需要考虑的问题

It is the issues that need to be considered in a traditional office.

你可能都要考虑

You might need to consider.

比如说你可能要考虑说

For example, you might want to consider saying.

我出版的这本书

The book I published.

由于在DRM方面做的不够

Due to insufficient efforts in DRM.

被人盗版了

Was pirated by someone.

会不会影响我的仕途

Will it affect my career path?

会不会影响我升职

Will it affect my promotion?

可能很快我就要升官了

I may be getting promoted soon.

但是因为这个出了什么问题

But something went wrong with this.

对吧

Right?

这都是有可能的

This is all possible.

所以就我提供一下出版社那边的视角

So let me provide you with the perspective from the publisher's side.

我觉得同时可能还有一个方面

I think there might also be another aspect at the same time.

就是出版社毕竟也是一个公司

After all, the publisher is also a company.

也是一个需要靠盈利而生存

It is also one that needs to rely on profits to survive.

而养一群员工的人

And the person who supports a group of employees.

包括还有作者

Including also the author.

所以如果一个作者

So if an author

他花十几二十个小时

He spends over ten to twenty hours.

或者是十几二十个月

Or it could be ten to twenty months.

写出来的一个产品

A product that is written out.

写出来一个文本

Write out a text.

一本书

A book

他如果就免费的被传播了

If he is spread for free.

免费肆意的被传播了的话

The words that are freely and recklessly spread.

那对于作者来说

That is for the author.

其实也是一件不公平的事情

In fact, it is also an unfair thing.

但是这个问题是这样的

But the thing is, this question is like this.

就是说

That is to say.

这是一个经典累月的讨论

This is a classic discussion that has lasted for years.

就是说究竟DRM

That is to say, what exactly is DRM?

有没有使得盗版难度变高

Is there anything that makes piracy more difficult?

我觉得其实你很难argue说它有

I think it's actually difficult for you to argue that it has.

你知道吧

You know, right?

因为现在其实你如果去找那些

Because right now, if you go look for those...

比较畅销的书

Bestselling books

比如像什么Thinking Fast and Slow

For example, something like "Thinking, Fast and Slow."

像Jarrett Diamond

Like Jarrett Diamond.

反正这种

Anyway, this kind of...

就是大家都说得出来的

It's something that everyone can talk about.

美国的那些

Those in the United States.

比如non-fiction的那些书

For example, those books in non-fiction.

上榜的书

Books on the list

基本都是找得到的

Basically, everything can be found.

找得到盗版电子版的

Can find a pirated electronic version.

而且一点都不困难

And it's not difficult at all.

你不需要去什么看起来很令人起疑的俄罗斯网站上

You don't need to go to some suspicious-looking Russian website.

你不需要去那种网站去下那种bt torrent文件

You don't need to go to that kind of website to download those BT torrent files.

你可能就是在google里搜

You might just be searching in Google.

可能第一页就会有一个pdf

There may be a PDF on the first page.

对吧

Right?

所以因为pdf它怎么流出来了

So how did the PDF leak out?

就可能很多人不知道

Then many people might not know.

有的时候其实它就是

Sometimes it actually is just that.

比如说译者流出来的

For example, what the translator has produced.

比如说有一本书

For example, there is a book.

他要翻译中文版

He wants to translate the Chinese version.

那他很可能会提供最终的那个in design版本

Then he will most likely provide the final version in InDesign.

他很可能会提供最终的那个in design版本

He is likely to provide the final version in design.

设计出的pdf给中国的译者

The designed PDF is given to the Chinese translators.

那给中国译者肯定他要先给出版社

Then he definitely needs to give it to the publisher first for the Chinese translator.

有的时候其实就是这个出版社流出来的

Sometimes it's actually published by this publisher.

真的是有这样的情况的

There really are such situations.

还有的比如说那个去图书馆里借来复印

Some people suggest borrowing and making photocopies from the library.

然后扫描上传

Then scan and upload.

这些都是有的

These all exist.

所以就我觉得真的很难说

So I think it's really hard to say.

电子书的平台

E-book platform

它加了DRM之后

After it added DRM.

在多大程度上抑制了盗版

To what extent has piracy been suppressed?

你觉得呢

What do you think?

我觉得DRM的作用是

I think the role of DRM is

给盗版这件事情增加

Increase the issue of piracy.

增加难度

Increase the difficulty.

就是说没有办法用这个

It means there is no way to use this.

软件的方式就批量的盗版

The software method is a form of mass piracy.

对就没有一种很容易的方式

There isn't an easy way to do it.

让你随便盗版

Let you freely pirate.

比如说如果我传播一个txt文件

For example, if I share a txt file.

那我可能就把它当做一个邮件的附件

Then I might just treat it as an email attachment.

就可以发给很多很多很多的人

Can be sent to many, many, many people.

但是因为DRM

But because of DRM.

然后因为特殊的格式

Then because of the special format.

就是不同出版商

It's just different publishers.

或者是不同电子书软件的不同格式

Or it could be the different formats of different e-book software.

它会对这件事情造成了一些难度

It will create some difficulty regarding this matter.

然后传播起来就没有那么方便

Then it's not that easy to spread.

那当这个难度到达一定程度的时候

When this difficulty reaches a certain level

用户可能就会选择说

Users may choose to say.

为什么要花这么大的力气来做这件事情

Why put in so much effort to do this?

如果我只需要花

If I only need to spend.

我可以负担得起的一部分价钱的话

If it's part of the price that I can afford.

来做这件事情

Come do this.

所以我对DRM这件事情

So I have thoughts about DRM.

我不太

I don't really.

我没有一个非常明确的态度

I don't have a very clear stance.

但我可以理解它存在的原因

But I can understand the reason for its existence.

那么这里其实我们就可以过渡到

So here we can actually transition to

Kindle软件本身这一部分了

This part is about the Kindle software itself.

我知道这是你当时在亚马逊做的工作

I know this was the work you did at Amazon at that time.

具体你是

Specifically, you are...

我们知道Kindle有很多版本

We know that Kindle has many versions.

Kindle是一个全平台的东西

Kindle is a cross-platform product.

它除了有自己的硬件

It not only has its own hardware.

它在PC Mac

It is on PC Mac.

还有Android

There is also Android.

iOS上面都有它的软件

There is software for it on iOS.

那么我不知道你负责的是具体哪一个呢

Then I don't know which specific one you are in charge of.

我早期的时候

In my early days

我最开始加入Kindle

I first joined Kindle.

大概是在2011年的时候

It was probably around 2011.

我做过几个月的PC和Mac的客户端

I have worked on the PC and Mac client for a few months.

PC和Mac的客户端是在

The client for PC and Mac is in

就是在PC和Mac上运行的

It runs on PC and Mac.

它现在在中国也可以被下载得到

It can now also be downloaded in China.

然后后来我做了这个

Then later I did this.

不久之后我就转到了

Before long, I transferred to...

另外一个新的项目

Another new project.

当时叫做Kindle for Windows 8

At that time it was called Kindle for Windows 8.

就是Kindle在Win8上面的一个客户端

It's a client for Kindle on Win8.

在那个时候非常有趣的事情是

The interesting thing at that time was

那个时候Win8还没有上市

At that time, Windows 8 had not yet been released.

2011年年底2012年初的时候

At the end of 2011 and the beginning of 2012.

Win8还没有上市

Windows 8 has not been released yet.

所以我们当时相当于是一个

So at that time we were essentially a...

早期的一个合作伙伴

An early collaborator.

和Microsoft就微软在合作这件事情

Regarding Microsoft's collaboration on this matter.

然后这里有个非常有趣的事情

Then there is something very interesting here.

就是当时和我们组合作了那个PM

It was at that time when we collaborated with our team on that PM.

就是产品经理

It's just the product manager.

是Ben Thompson

It's Ben Thompson.

就是现在Stratechery的那个作者

It's the author of Stratechery now.

然后当时我们有很多的合作和交流

At that time, we had a lot of cooperation and交流.

我不知道Ben Thompson有没有听我们的节目

I don’t know if Ben Thompson has listened to our program.

我跟他私下在Twitter上有时候偶尔会说说话

I sometimes chat with him privately on Twitter.

那个把他的身份给暴露了

That exposed his identity.

你刚才说的我有一点很在意的就是

What you just said is something I care about a little bit.

你一开始说到你称之为PC和Mac客户端

You initially mentioned what you call PC and Mac clients.

所以当时是一个跨平台的一个东西

So at that time it was something cross-platform.

不是Windows和Mac分别写的对吧

It's not written separately for Windows and Mac, right?

他们有很多共用的代码

They have a lot of shared code.

但是也有很多东西是必须得是平台

But there are also many things that must be platform-based.

就是platform specific的

It's platform specific.

就比如说因为它整体在那个时候

For example, because it was overall at that time.

PC Mac的软件

PC Mac software

因为那个时候还是Win7和WinXP的那个时代

Because it was still the era of Win7 and WinXP at that time.

它PC App就是Windows App长得跟Mac的App

Its PC App looks like a Windows App but resembles a Mac App.

其实还是有很多共性的

In fact, there are still many commonalities.

对

Correct.

所以我们有很多shared的代码

So we have a lot of shared code.

然后也有很多非常specific to Windows的一些功能

Then there are also many features that are very specific to Windows.

也有非常specific to Mac的一些功能

There are also some features that are very specific to Mac.

然后你说你转到Win8那个组

Then you said you switched to the Win8 team.

然后你刚才的叙述似乎在暗示说

Then your previous account seems to imply that...

Win8是一次很大的改写

Windows 8 is a significant rewrite.

甚至是全部重写这样

Even completely rewriting it like this.

Win8这个产品当时跟PC和Mac是不一样的

The Win8 product was different from PC and Mac at that time.

因为Win8这个平台当时出来的时候

Because the Win8 platform was released at that time.

他们比较推的是Metro UI

They are more inclined towards Metro UI.

我不知道中文现在叫什么

I don't know what Chinese is called now.

但是就是应该没有中文吧

But there shouldn't be any Chinese, right?

你说Metro我们的听众应该就知道

You mentioned Metro, so our audience should know.

对就是当时主要推的是一个Metro UI就是全屏的

Yes, at that time, the main focus was on a Metro UI that was full-screen.

然后我们当时做了一个Win8的Native App

Then we developed a Win8 native app at that time.

但是我们的实现方式是做了一个Hybrid的

But our implementation is a hybrid one.

当我说Native App和Hybrid App的时候可能有点confusing

When I mention Native App and Hybrid App, it might be a bit confusing.

具体的就是说我们当时书架图书馆这个部分

Specifically, we were talking about the bookshelf library part at that time.

我们是写的Native Code

We are writing Native Code.

然后在真正展示书内容的这个部分

Then in this part where the actual content of the book is presented.

我们用的是一个WebView来实现它的功能

We are using a WebView to implement its functionality.

我觉得展示书内容WebView其实是一个

I think displaying book content in a WebView is actually a

是很多人的选择

It is the choice of many people.

不过这个我们等会再说

We'll talk about this later.

然后你之前说的这三个就是在PC和Mac

Then the three you mentioned earlier are on PC and Mac.

以及后来Win8的这几个版本

And later these versions of Win8.

我相信它的用户量在Kindle的总用户量只在很少一部分

I believe its user base is only a small fraction of the total Kindle user base.

具体多少部分我没有办法知道

I cannot know the specific number of parts.

但是我们因为是全平台

However, because we are on all platforms.

然后我所在的那个大组是叫Kindle Cross Platform

Then the large group I am in is called Kindle Cross Platform.

Kindle 跨平台组

Kindle cross-platform group

所以后来我又转到了

So later I switched to

有这么一个组

There is such a group.

我们后来又转到了

We later switched to...

我后来又转到了其他的产品上

I later switched to other products.

然后因为在Win8上我们用的是WebView

Then, because we are using WebView on Win8.

然后用的是Native

Then it was used with Native.

当时Microsoft提供的一个JavaScript的一个平台

At that time, Microsoft offered a JavaScript platform.

所以我转到了Web组

So I transferred to the Web team.

然后接下来就做了Kindle Cloud Reader

Then, the next step was to create the Kindle Cloud Reader.

和Kindle Instant Preview两个产品

Two products: Kindle Instant Preview.

这个很前卫

This is very avant-garde.

我们现在来说Cloud Reader

Let's talk about Cloud Reader now.

大家可能知道所有的

Everyone might know everything.

Kindle其实是有一个Web版的

Kindle actually has a web version.

它的网址是read.amazon.com

Its website is read.amazon.com.

你买过的所有的Kindle书

All the Kindle books you have purchased.

都可以在那里看到

You can see it all there.

也就是说你只要有一个

That means you only need one.

现代的符合Web standards的浏览器

Modern web standards-compliant browsers

你就可以正常的去阅读你的Kindle书

You can read your Kindle books normally.

对吧

Right?

在任何地方

Anywhere.

这个产品其实它暂时还没有在

This product is actually not available yet.

没有支持中国账户

No support for Chinese accounts.

这个后面

This behind.

这个还没有支持中国账户

This does not yet support Chinese accounts.

但它有很多很多的原因

But it has many, many reasons.

它是一个Web App

It is a web app.

它支持各种现代浏览器

It supports various modern browsers.

它是一个Web App

It is a web app.

它支持各种现代浏览器

It supports various modern browsers.

像你说的

Just like you said.

比如像Chrome Firefox Safari

For example, like Chrome, Firefox, and Safari.

然后IE10以上的版本

Then versions above IE10

对

Correct.

然后它同时也在iPad上

Then it is also on the iPad.

可以在Safari和Chrome里面打开

Can be opened in Safari and Chrome.

对

Yes.

我看了

I saw it.

不过那个Performance

But that performance

似乎还是有点问题

It seems there are still some issues.

不过你来说一下吧

But you can say it.

因为可能Cloud Reader

Because it may be Cloud Reader.

是你有比较深度的参与的一个产品

It is a product that you have been more deeply involved in.

你也可以借这个产品来介绍一下

You can also use this product to introduce yourself.

比如一个电子书软件

For example, an eBook software.

是分成哪些部分

What are the different parts?

以及它是怎么工作的

And how it works.

Cloud Reader实际上

Cloud Reader actually

当时最初做这个产品的时候

When we first created this product.

我没有参加最初的那个部分

I did not participate in that initial part.

因为我是后来才加入这个Team的

Because I joined this team later.

但是当初做的时候实际上是

But when it was done initially, it was actually...

因为亚马逊说

Because Amazon said

你Kindle书是

Your Kindle book is

Buy once read everywhere

Buy once, read everywhere.

你买一次就可以在任何地方读到这本书

Once you buy it, you can read this book anywhere.

所以出现在Web平台上

So it appears on the web platform.

是一个很正常的事情

It's a very normal thing.

出现在Web平台上面

Appear on the web platform.

它有很多很多的跟传统的平台

It has a lot of platforms that are very traditional.

比如iOS Android不同的地方

For example, the differences between iOS and Android.

比如说

For example

一个很明显的一个区别就是

One obvious difference is that

如果你用这个Cloud Reader的话

If you use this Cloud Reader,

你会发现你点开一本书的时候

You will find that when you open a book,

这本书是立刻打开的

This book is opened immediately.

而在其他的平台

On other platforms

包括电子书阅读器

Including e-book readers

E Ink的阅读器

E Ink reader

iOS Android上面

On iOS and Android.

它都是需要下载这本书

It all requires downloading this book.

然后才能打开这个内容

Only then can this content be opened.

就有很多这样的区别

There are many such differences.

然后作为一个Web App

Then as a Web App

Kindle Cloud Reader

它也支持Offline Reading

It also supports Offline Reading.

因为当时我们在做这个

Because at that time we were doing this.

这个产品的时候

When this product is...

大众的期望值和expectation都是说

The expectations of the public and expectation both refer to...

既然我已经下载了这本书

Since I have already downloaded this book.

那我就应该可以在Offline的情况下看

Then I should be able to watch it offline.

所以当时我们也花了很多时间

So at that time we also spent a lot of time.

来支持Offline的这个情况

Come support the situation of Offline.

对于一个Web App来说

For a Web App,

可能到现在支持Offline的case

It is possible that cases supporting Offline have now emerged.

可能都不是特别多

Probably not very much.

应该说整个成熟的

It should be said that the entire maturity.

然后经常被人用着的Web App

Then it's a web app that is often used by people.

根本就很少

Very rarely.

最近那个有一个群里

Recently, there is a group.

有人发了一篇

Someone posted an article.

就是转了一篇文章嘛

It's just a reposting of an article.

就是有一个开发者

There is a developer.

他说我又放弃了iOS

He said I have given up on iOS again.

我转Android

I'm switching to Android.

然后他的原因基本上

Then his reasons are basically

就因为他自己是个Web App的开发者

Just because he is a web app developer himself.

然后他发现在iOS上有各种各样的限制吧

Then he realized that there are all kinds of restrictions on iOS.

就是这样这么一回事

That's just how it is.

但是我觉得就是所有这一类挺Web App

But I think all of these types are pretty much Web Apps.

然后反对在

Then oppose in

或者说至少在意识形态上

Or at least in terms of ideology.

反对Native平台的人

Opponents of the Native platform.

他都要面临这么一个问题

He has to face such a problem.

就是说你给我举出一个

That is to say, give me one example.

现在每天被很多人正在使用的Web App的例子

Examples of web apps that are being used by many people every day.

其实是很少很少的

Actually, it is very, very little.

而Kindle Cloud Reader

And Kindle Cloud Reader

我觉得可能是极少数的几个之一吧

I think it might be one of the very few.

每天使用的话

Words used daily.

这个我倒不确定

I'm not so sure about this.

但是我自己认为是一个比较成功的Web App

But I personally think it is a relatively successful Web App.

对就经常使用

It's often used.

而且至少你觉得这个东西是

And at least you think this thing is

是可用的

It is available.

它不只是一个Proof of Concept

It is not just a Proof of Concept.

也不只是一个玩具

It's not just a toy.

也不只是用来证明HTML5

It is not just used to demonstrate HTML5.

可以做到怎么怎么花烧的效果

Can achieve the effect of how to burn flowers.

而是正儿八经的去满足一个

But rather seriously go to satisfy one.

实际存在的需求的这么一个东西

A tangible thing that actually exists as a demand.

对它是可以满足用户真正的需求的

It can meet the real needs of users.

它基本上就是一个完整的Kindle客户端

It is basically a complete Kindle client.

只是它运行在网页上

It just runs on the web.

所以一个完整的Kindle客户端

So a complete Kindle client.

它是由哪些部分组成的

What components does it consist of?

可能要给大家介绍一下

Probably need to introduce it to everyone.

你刚刚有提到一个叫书架和图书馆

You just mentioned something called a bookshelf and a library.

就是英文叫Library了

It's called "Library" in English.

但是国内一般就是直接叫书架

But generally in the country, it's just called a bookshelf.

这样的概念

Such a concept

我觉得当我们说到电子书产品的时候

I think when we talk about e-book products

电子书软件的时候

When it comes to e-book software

我们必须得考虑到它有两个主要的部分

We must consider that it has two main parts.

就是当我说客户端产品的时候

It's just that when I talk about client products,

因为服务器端当然有很多很多很复杂的成分

Because the server side certainly has many complex components.

那客户端产品的两个主要的组成部分

The two main components of that client product.

就是一个是内容渲染的部分

It is just the part of content rendering.

另外一个就是UI层面的东西

Another aspect is related to the UI layer.

其实我说内容渲染的时候

Actually, when I talk about content rendering,

其实它也是可以看得到的

In fact, it can also be seen.

只是它Focus不一样

It's just that its focus is different.

它的内容渲染层面它Focus的是

Its content rendering aspect focuses on.

这个书的内容本身

The content of this book itself.

和如何展示这个书的内容

How to present the content of this book.

那UI层面就是用户交互所需要做到的事情

The UI aspect is what needs to be done for user interaction.

所以主要分这两个大方面

So it is mainly divided into these two major aspects.

这里先稍微插一句

I'll briefly interject here.

罗一文说的渲染

The rendering mentioned by Luo Yiwen.

这个是程序员的一个用语

This is a term used by programmers.

他指的是怎么把一个东西显示出来

He is referring to how to display something.

简单来说可以这么去理解

In simple terms, it can be understood like this.

因为渲染这个词

Because of the word "rendering"

我其实是比较反对的

I actually disagree with it quite a bit.

它是对英文render的翻译

It is the translation of the English word "render."

但是为了

But for the sake of

因为现在渲染已经是公认的翻译了

Because rendering is now universally recognized as translation.

所以我们暂且沿用它

So we'll continue to use it for the time being.

但是如果你不知道的话

But if you don't know.

它的意思就是指的

It means to refer to.

指的你怎么把

How do you mean?

比如说刚才我们提到的一个EPUB文件

For example, the EPUB file we mentioned earlier.

或者一个AZW文件里包含的内容图片

Or the content images included in an AZW file.

有时候声音等等的

Sometimes the sound and so on.

在Kindle这个软件里把它显示出来

Display it in the Kindle app.

对一个更简单的例子就是

A simpler example is

其实我们大家平时常用的浏览器

Actually, the browsers we all commonly use.

它也是需要把一个HTML的文件

It also needs to process an HTML file.

然后展示出来

Then show it.

然后这个展示的过程就叫做rendering

Then this process of displaying is called rendering.

就是渲染

It's just rendering.

对

Yes

对刚刚说到了

Just talked about it.

我们就从渲染层面开始说吧

Let's start by talking about the rendering aspect.

就是rendering的这个层面

It's just this aspect of rendering.

我们前面说到了

We mentioned earlier.

电子书它有各种各样的不同的格式

E-books come in a variety of different formats.

然后它会被封装成不同的东西

Then it will be packaged into different things.

然后放在不同的文件

Then put them in different files.

放在服务器上

Put on the server.

然后通过网络到达客户端

Then reach the client through the network.

不同的客户端它是有不同的做法

Different clients have different approaches.

比如说我刚刚说到有的客户端

For example, I just mentioned that some clients...

它是要下载整个文件

It is going to download the entire file.

这样做的原因

The reason for doing this.

可能是因为它压缩效率更好

It may be because it has better compression efficiency.

然后offline可以使用

Then it can be used offline.

这个地方必须得理解的一点就是

One point that must be understood about this place is that

早期的时候

In the early days.

当网络还没有这么发达的时候

When the internet was not so developed yet.

如果你要

If you want to

如果你能够把

If you can put...

在一个稳定的网络把文件下载下来

Download the file on a stable network.

然后你接下来就可以

Then you can continue to

完全无忧无虑的去读这本书

Read this book completely carefree.

对于用户来说是一件很重要的事情

It is a very important matter for users.

因为当你在读一个纸书的时候

Because when you are reading a physical book,

你是不需要考虑到这个问题的

You don't need to think about this problem.

所以在早期的时候

So in the early days

这个是非常重要的一件事情

This is a very important matter.

那后来我们就有了

Then later we had...

像Kindle Cloud Reader这种

Like Kindle Cloud Reader.

可以立刻打开书的这种webapp

This web app can immediately open books.

那webapp的话

Then about the web app,

也是像之前提到的

It's also like mentioned earlier.

它是另外完全不同那种格式

It is an entirely different format.

所以它呈现出来的样式

So the style it presents is

然后它从服务器上传到客户端的方式

Then it uploads from the server to the client.

也是有各种各样不同的实现吧

There are also various different implementations, right?

等一下

Wait a moment.

所以一本Kindle书

So a Kindle book.

其实在服务器上是有两个版本的

Actually, there are two versions on the server.

一个是给Cloud Reader用的

One is for Cloud Reader.

一个是给其他客户用的

One is for other customers.

可以这么说

You could say that.

其实一本电子书在服务器上

Actually, an e-book is on the server.

它可以有很多很多的版本

It can have many, many versions.

因为这个地方

Because of this place.

我相信你之前肯定也知道

I believe you must have known this before.

当作者需要修改一个字

When the author needs to modify a character.

或者说当传商需要修改一幅图的时候

Or to say when the transmitter needs to modify an image.

它会上传一个新的版本

It will upload a new version.

这是另外一种情况

This is another situation.

但是因为你刚刚提到说

But because you just mentioned that...

你说Cloud Reader用的是一个另外的格式

You said that Cloud Reader uses a different format.

所以你知道吗

So do you know?

对

Yes.

Cloud Reader用的是另外一种格式的原因

The reason Cloud Reader uses a different format.

是因为它需要对web来做相应的特殊的优化

It is because it requires special optimizations for the web.

所以出版社要提供给你们也是两个版本吗

So the publisher will provide you with two versions as well?

没有

None.

这个都是内部的

This is all internal.

这是你们自己做的

This is made by you yourselves.

对于出版社来说的话

Regarding the publisher.

他们不需要知道这件事情

They don't need to know about this matter.

就是不需要知道这中间的复杂程度

It just doesn't require knowing the complexity in between.

这个都是我们可以用自己的技术方式来解决的问题

These are all problems that we can solve with our own technical methods.

明白

Understood.

刚才罗一文提到说下载整个文件和解压缩

Just now, Luo Yiwen mentioned downloading the entire file and decompressing it.

可能有些人会觉得说

Some people might feel that it's worth mentioning.

一本电子书能有多大

How big can an eBook be?

我觉得这个可能也是要提供一下一个基本的概念

I think this might also require providing a basic concept.

就是现在

It's now.

比如说你做一本电子书

For example, you create an e-book.

如果里面有图片的话

If there are pictures inside.

你应该会

You should be able to.

大家都会希望它支持这个retina的分辨率

Everyone hopes that it supports this retina resolution.

对吧

Right?

这种情况下

In this case.

一张图片超过一兆是很常见的

It is very common for an image to exceed one megabyte.

那你可以想一下就是图片一多

Then you can think about it when there are more images.

那真的这本书超过30兆超过50兆就很正常的

It's really normal for this book to be over 30 megabytes or even over 50 megabytes.

呃

Uh.

我买过的最大的一本kindle电子书是500多兆

The largest Kindle eBook I have ever purchased is over 500 megabytes.

然后那个下载起来

Then download that.

尤其是在中国

Especially in China.

在国内下载起来会非常的痛苦

Downloading it in the country will be very painful.

对电子书其实啊

Actually, regarding e-books…

如果是一篇纯文

If it is a pure text.

如果是一本纯文字的电子书的话

If it's an e-book consisting solely of text.

它的大小可能不是特别大

Its size may not be particularly large.

但是啊

But ah

但是如果他也没有很多插图

But if he doesn't have many illustrations either.

很多表格

Many forms.

然后甚至它是漫画

Then it is even a comic.

就是全部都是图片的话

If it's all just pictures

那它的大小是非常大的

Then its size is very large.

对

Correct.

哎对啊

Oh right.

我刚我刚才就尝试着打开了

I just tried to open it.

我在那个webreader

I'm on that web reader.

就是cloudreader里面打开了

It just opened in CloudReader.

我说你们五本500兆的书

I said you have five books of 500 megabytes each.

确实如你所说

Indeed, as you said.

就是当这个文件大小大到一定程度之后

It is when the size of this file reaches a certain extent.

你就会可以体会到

You will be able to experience.

刚才罗一文说

Just now, Luo Yiwen said.

为什么这种在cloudreader可以打开

Why can it be opened in CloudReader?

马上读

Read it immediately.

和在那个客户端里

And in that client.

比如在iphone的客户端里下载完才读

For example, download it on the iPhone client before reading.

那时候区别就很大了

The difference was significant at that time.

就像这本500多兆的书

Just like this book that is over 500 megabytes.

我哪怕在美国的话

Even if I were in the United States.

你要下载

You want to download.

可能也得要

It might also be necessary.

说老实话kindle下载电子书

To be honest, downloading e-books on Kindle.

有时候速度并不是那么快

Sometimes the speed is not that fast.

可能也得要个多少

It might also need a certain amount.

一两分钟两三

One to two minutes, two to three.

一两分钟对

One or two minutes.

对一两分钟肯定得要的

It will definitely take one or two minutes.

最初的时候kindle跟大家说

At first, Kindle told everyone.

我们可以在60秒之内

We can do it in 60 seconds.

把你的书送到你的客户端上面

Deliver your book to your client.

但是因为我们在做各种各样的格式

But because we are working on various formats.

就是各种各样的书籍的

It’s all kinds of books.

应该怎么说

What should I say?

就比如说杂志啊

For example, magazines.

或者是多图的这种文件的时候

Or when it is a file with multiple images.

书的体积会变大

The volume of the book will increase.

所以一直保证60秒这件事情

So we have always guaranteed the 60 seconds thing.

其实是比较难

Actually, it is quite difficult.

而且根据网络情况

Moreover, depending on the network conditions.

60秒其实是比较难的

60 seconds is actually quite difficult.

其实也是一个非常勉强的一个保证

It is actually a very reluctant guarantee.

那我刚刚说到了

Then what I just mentioned was...

就是书有不同的格式

There are different formats of books.

它可以它在不同的客户端

It can be used on different clients.

有不同的展示方式

There are different ways to display.

那其实如果你仔细想一想的话

Actually, if you think about it carefully,

我们在平时现实生活中看到的纸书

The paper books we see in our everyday real life.

你买回来之后

After you buy it back

它都是已经排版给你排好的

It's all been typeset for you.

它纸张的大小是永远不会变的

The size of its paper will never change.

对吧

Right?

那如果在一个电子屏幕上面

Then if it is on an electronic screen

哪怕你是横着拿手机

Even if you hold your phone sideways.

和竖着拿手机

Hold the phone vertically.

这个书的格

The format of this book.

书它显示多少

How much does the book show?

那个屏幕里面显示多少个字

How many words are displayed on that screen?

它可能都是有变化的

It may all be changing.

所以在渲染内容的时候呢

So when rendering the content,

屏幕的大小啊

The size of the screen.

对于很多很多排版的细节和算法

For many, many details and algorithms related to typesetting.

我们都需要经过很细致的处理

We all need to go through very careful handling.

可以给大家说几个例子吧

Let me give you a few examples.

比如说

For example

在英文中比较常见的一个情况

A relatively common situation in English.

就是当你一个文字太长

It's when a piece of text is too long.

然后一个词太长的时候需要转行

Then, when a word is too long, it needs to wrap to the next line.

如果你在早期看

If you look at it in the early stages.

你在早期看浏览器的时候

When you were looking at the browser in the early days

很多时候它转行

Many times it changes its line of work.

就直接把这整个词给拿到下面一行了

Just take this entire word and move it to the next line.

但是如果你在看正常的一本纸质书的时候

But if you are reading a normal physical book...

你会可能看这种方式是

You might see this approach as

它会用一个横杠一个hyphen

It will use a hyphen.

把它两个词给连起来

Connect the two words together.

像这种事情在电子书的处理上面

Such things happen in the handling of e-books.

在电子书排版的处理上面

In the processing of e-book typesetting.

都是需要特别的计算来实现的

All need special calculations to achieve.

尤其是比如说你当你的字号发生

Especially when, for example, your font size changes.

这件事情其实如果是纸书的话

If this matter were in a physical book,

你可能在InDesign里就直接

You might do it directly in InDesign.

应该固定的嘛

It should be fixed.

像刚才一文所说的

As mentioned in the article just now.

所以你设计好就完了

So once you finish designing, it's done.

但是比如说你在电子书里只要字号一改

For example, if you just change the font size in an e-book,

那你一行的单词数就已经变了嘛

Then the number of words in your line has changed, right?

这个时候你可能要去加hyphen连字符的

At this time, you may need to add a hyphen.

就是另外一个单词了

It's just another word.

所以这里其实也涉及对于CPU的

So this actually involves the CPU as well.

这是需要计算的

This needs to be calculated.

是这样一个活的需要计算的过程

It is a living process that requires calculation.

对是需要算法来实现的

Yes, it requires an algorithm to achieve it.

像类似这样的例子

Examples like this.

其实有很多比如说

Actually, there are many, for example.

我们在纸质书上经常看到的一种排版

A type of layout we often see in printed books.

尤其是杂志上有看到一种排版

Especially, I saw a kind of layout in the magazine.

就是一个自然断的

It's just a natural break.

第一个字它可能占三四行

The first character might take up three to four lines.

然后特别大的来显示

Then it shows up particularly big.

然后其实你在浏览网页上的时候

Then, actually when you are browsing the web

你很少会看到这样子的排版

You rarely see this kind of layout.

因为在浏览器上面

Because it's in the browser.

支持这种排版是比较不成熟

Supporting this type of layout is relatively immature.

但是你当你在读一本电子书的时候

But when you are reading an e-book

很多人说我读电子书的质量

Many people say the quality of the e-books I read.

可能跟纸质书的时候差很多

It may be very different from when it was a physical book.

这个时候可能就是

This moment might be it.

因为它有一些技术上的限制

Because it has some technical limitations.

让这种事情没有办法实现

Make it impossible for such things to happen.

但是随着时间的推移

But as time goes by

在这方面

In this regard

在rendering的质量上面

In terms of rendering quality.

我们是越来越

We are becoming more and more.

就是各个平台都在越做越好

All platforms are improving more and more.

但我必须说一句

But I must say a word.

就是这个变好的速度是非常的缓慢的

The speed of improvement is very slow.

比如说你刚才提到的drop cap

For example, the drop cap you just mentioned.

就是首次下沉

This is the first time sinking.

中文一般叫首次下沉

In Chinese, it is commonly referred to as first-time sinking.

这个的支持其实我觉得

I actually feel that this support...

就我很少见到

I rarely see it.

而且这里其实是涉及怎么说

Moreover, this actually involves how to say.

就是你的电子书本身

It is your e-book itself.

那个文件那里也要做处理

That document also needs to be processed.

你得把它标记出来对吧

You need to mark it out, right?

对

Yes.

你得告诉kindle软件

You need to tell the Kindle software.

我的第一段的这第一个字

The first word of my first paragraph.

要做成大大的

Be sure to make it big.

要做成drop cap

To create a drop cap.

这是等于说出版社那边需要做的一件事情

This means that there is something the publishing house needs to do.

然后另一方面就是kindle

On the other hand, there's the Kindle.

其实kindle到现在都

Actually, the Kindle is still...

现在有没有

Is there now?

它现在还是强制两端对齐

It is still forced to be fully justified.

对吧

Right?

这是它最为人所诟病的一点

This is the point that is most criticized.

不过其实我今天的目的

But actually, my purpose today is...

不是为了说kindle的在排版上好或者坏

It's not to say that Kindle is good or bad in terms of formatting.

因为我刚才讲了

Because I just said.

大家进步的速度其实都很慢

Everyone's progress is actually quite slow.

就是如果你真的拿以前

It's just that if you really take the past...

纸书的那种排版质量去要求电子书的话

If we demand the same typesetting quality in e-books as in print books.

现在就是大部分电子书

Now it's mostly e-books.

其实都不能算及格吧

Actually, it can't be considered passing.

比如说对于对于这个叫什么

For example, what is this called?

sorry

对不起

那个叫什么

What is that called?

small caps

小型字母

对于small caps的支持

Support for small caps

就大家可能看纸书都会发现

As everyone may have noticed when reading paper books.

有一些字母明明是大写字母

Some letters are clearly in uppercase.

但是它的高度跟小写字母是一样的

But its height is the same as that of lowercase letters.

这种这种特殊的

This kind of special.

特殊的字体吧

A special font, perhaps.

字型吧

Font style.

有时候是很有用的

Sometimes it is very useful.

就是说它可以起到强调的作用

That means it can serve an emphasis role.

但是又很优雅

But also very elegant.

就不会让你觉得它在大喊大叫嘛

It won't make you feel like it's shouting.

如果你全用大喊大写

If you write everything in uppercase and shout.

可能会大喊大叫

May shout loudly.

有那种大喊大叫的感觉

It feels like yelling loudly.

但是用这种small caps

But using this small caps.

就会显得很优雅

It will appear very elegant.

这种东西其实在各个平台上的支持

This kind of thing is actually supported on various platforms.

都不是那么的完整

Neither is it so complete.

对

Yes.

其实当我们在说把一个文字

Actually, when we talk about putting a text...

或者是一个图片展示给

Or it could be an image to show.

在屏幕上展示给用户看的时候

When displayed on the screen for the user.

大家可能

Everyone may

潜意识里面的理解是说

The understanding in the subconscious means to say.

这不就是浏览器每天都在做的事情

Isn't this exactly what a browser does every day?

这不是所有的软件电脑屏幕

This is not the software computer screen.

每天都在做的事情吗

Is it something you do every day?

但实际上这里面的讲究非常非常的多

But in reality, there are very many intricacies involved.

尤其是当你要适应各种各样的屏幕大小

Especially when you need to adapt to various screen sizes

然后各种各样的文字

Then various kinds of characters.

然后这种挑战实际上是非常非常多的

Then, this kind of challenge is actually very, very numerous.

所以

当有的时候比如说用户在抱怨说

Sometimes when users are complaining, for example, they say...

我们经常可以看到用户在抱怨说

We often see users complaining that

你们这个地方显示错了

Your place is displayed incorrectly.

或者是这个地方的格式

Or it could be the format of this place.

好像不太对

It seems not quite right.

没有指数好

Not as good as the index.

我们其实都在很努力的来修改它

We are actually all working hard to modify it.

各个厂商都是在做同样的事情

Each manufacturer is doing the same thing.

对

Yes.

不过我想指出一点

However, I would like to point out one thing.

就是说用户当然有抱怨的权利

This means that users certainly have the right to complain.

没错

That's right.

但是有的时候

But sometimes

我觉得很多人其实不太清楚自己抱怨的是什么

I think many people actually don't quite know what they are complaining about.

因为比如说

Because, for example,

很多人如果你给他

Many people, if you give them...

我们假设我们做一个电子阅读软件

We assume that we are creating an electronic reading software.

它是不允许调节字号的

It is not allowed to adjust the font size.

就是说一定会有很多人抱怨

That means there will definitely be a lot of complaints.

这怎么可以呢

How is this possible?

所有的主流的阅读软件都是允许调整字号的

All mainstream reading software allows for font size adjustment.

但我想跟你讲的是

But what I want to tell you is

如果一个软件

If a software

不允许调整字号

Font size adjustments are not allowed.

刚才说的很多问题都不存在了

Many of the problems mentioned just now no longer exist.

对的

That's right.

对吧

Right?

所以最终你要的是什么呢

So what is it that you ultimately want?

你就得想一下了

You need to think about it.

就是我在不允许调节字号的情况下

It is just that I am not allowed to adjust the font size.

我可以

I can.

比如说我们的marketing团队

For example, our marketing team.

我们就可以说

We can say.

我们可以很放心的说

We can say with great confidence

我们的排版超越所有其他人

Our typesetting surpasses everyone else.

就因为这一点

Just because of this.

这说真的

This is serious.

因为它是固定的

Because it is fixed.

对吧

Right?

但是这样的话

But in that case,

你阻止不了那些

You can't stop those.

比如包括什么

For example, what does it include?

例如说有些事例不佳的人

For example, there are some people with poor examples.

也包括一些其实事例OK

It also includes some actually acceptable examples.

但他就是没事喜欢调整字号

But he just likes to adjust the font size for no reason.

大大小小调来玩的人

People of all sizes come to play.

你阻止不了这些人的抱怨

You can't stop these people's complaints.

所以这最终

So this ultimately

如果你站在一个产品经理的角度去考虑的话

If you consider it from a product manager's perspective.

其实

Actually

当你想到这个问题的时候

When you think about this question.

就会比较有趣了

It will become more interesting.

我想说在这个时代理解电子产品

I want to say that understanding electronic products in this era is important.

或者是理解任何产品的时候

Or when understanding any product.

你都需要去

You need to go.

如果你愿意的话

If you are willing.

你可以多去想一想

You can think about it more.

做这个产品的人

The people who make this product.

他所需要去做的一种trade off

A trade-off he needs to make.

他所做的取舍

The choices and sacrifices he made.

比如像Lawrence刚刚说的

For example, as Lawrence just mentioned.

加了字号

Increased the font size.

加了字体之后

After adding the font.

对于渲染

Regarding rendering.

rendering的难度都会加很多

The difficulty of rendering will increase a lot.

其实一个最直观最直观的例子就是

In fact, a very direct and straightforward example is

我们知道PDF的格式它是fixed的

We know that the PDF format is fixed.

它是比较完美的

It is relatively perfect.

但是你想一想

But think about it.

如果我们直接把PDF

If we directly convert the PDF

放到iPhone4寸到6寸

Put it on iPhone with a 4-inch to 6-inch screen.

这样一个屏幕上面去显示的时候

When displayed on such a screen

它的阅读体验其实是非常糟糕的

The reading experience is actually very poor.

尽管它本身非常完美

Although it is very perfect in itself.

可是它的阅读体验

But its reading experience

并不是你所想

It's not what you think.

并不是你希望它能做到的那个样子

It's not the way you hope it can be.

对

Yes.

我觉得很多人确实

I think many people do indeed.

他在抱怨排版的时候

He was complaining about the typesetting.

没有考虑到这个问题

Did not take this issue into consideration.

因为其实什么是设计

Because, in fact, what is design?

设计某种程度上说

To some extent, design.

它就意味着

It means.

不是某种程度上吧

Isn't it to some extent?

设计其实就意味着这个东西

Design actually means this thing.

我是由另外一个人帮你安排好的

I was arranged by someone else to help you.

然后你是不能随便去动的

Then you can't just move it around casually.

而且比例在设计里

And the proportion is in the design.

是一个非常重要的概念

It is a very important concept.

而你一旦去修改字号

But once you change the font size.

其实是把整个版面的比例都改变了

In fact, the proportions of the entire layout have been altered.

那这个从设计师的角度来说

Well, from the designer's perspective.

其实是一种

Actually, it is a kind of.

是一种僭越

It is a form of usurpation.

你可以说

You can say.

然后我们现在之所以

Then the reason why we are now

就是有这样的一个传统

There is indeed such a tradition.

就是这样一个阅读软件

It's just such a reading app.

必然能够修改字号的这样的一个传统

A tradition that can inevitably modify the font size.

这个其实

This actually

它就是一个

It is just a one.

它是一种惯性吧

It's a kind of inertia, I suppose.

就可能最早的这个软件就是这样的

It is possible that the earliest version of this software was like this.

还是说比如说最早的浏览器

Or, for example, the earliest browsers.

从浏览器从一开始

From the browser from the very beginning.

网页浏览器从一开始

Web browsers from the very beginning.

就可以去修改字号

You can then go and change the font size.

对吧

Right?

所以大家觉得说

So everyone thinks that...

我们一定要允许大家这么做

We must allow everyone to do this.

而且在互联网上

Furthermore, on the internet.

其实accessibility是一个很重要的概念嘛

Actually, accessibility is a very important concept.

就是我们永远可以说

We can always say.

你不应该

You shouldn't.

因为某一些用户

Because of certain users

他有一些先天的原因

He has some congenital reasons.

就没有办法去接触某种内容

Then there is no way to access certain content.

这个先天原因包括

This innate reason includes

比如我是弱势人群

For example, I am a marginalized group.

对吧

Right?

或者视力很差

Or the eyesight is very poor.

或者就算不是弱势人群

Or even if it is not a disadvantaged group.

你年纪大了之后

After you get older

你的视力也会变差

Your vision will also worsen.

你觉得能够放大一点字号

Do you think it would be possible to enlarge the font size a bit?

是会舒服很多

It will be much more comfortable.

对吧

Right?

但另一方面我们要想的是

But on the other hand, we need to think about...

当你看一本纸书

When you read a physical book

你没有任何定制化的东西可以做

You have nothing customized that you can do.

你没有选择的权利

You have no right to choose.

基本上

Basically

对

Correct.

然后我可以把话放在这里

Then I can put the words here.

就是这种选择权利的缺失

It is precisely this lack of choice that is missing.

使得纸书的阅读体验

Enhance the reading experience of printed books.

就纸书的排版嘛

It's about the layout of printed books.

不说阅读体验

Not to mention the reading experience.

阅读体验包含的东西太多了

There are too many elements included in the reading experience.

它的排版会让你觉得好

Its layout will make you feel good.

其实就是这么一回事

It's just the way it is.

这点我个人是非常同意的

I personally completely agree with this point.

就我仅代表我个人

I speak only for myself.

我个人是非常同意这一点的

I personally agree with this very much.

然后

Then

今天罗一文说的一切东西

Everything that Luo Yiwen said today.

不代表Kindle或亚马逊的观点

Does not represent the views of Kindle or Amazon.

对

Correct.

都是代表我自己

They all represent myself.

其实说到

Actually, speaking of...

说到纸书的时候

Speaking of paper books,

有一点

A little bit.

我想提到的就是

What I want to mention is

其实平台

In fact, the platform.

那个媒介本身

The medium itself.

它对于一个阅读体验

It provides for a reading experience.

或者是渲染显示的一个效果

Or it is an effect of rendering display.

也是有很多影响的

There are also many influences.

就比如说

For example,

很多人可能在Kindle上

Many people may be on Kindle.

很多Kindle用户

Many Kindle users

可能都在

Maybe they are all here.

Kindle电子墨水仪器上

On the Kindle e-ink device.

看过PDF

Have read the PDF.

尤其是那种

Especially that kind.

很大很大的PDF

Very large PDF

当他们选择放大的时候

When they choose to amplify.

他们会发现说

They will find that saying

我想移动一下的时候

I want to move a little.

为什么在Kindle上移动起来这么难

Why is it so difficult to move around on Kindle?

为什么我每翻一页

Why do I turn a page every time?

或者是每移动几个格子的时候

Or when moving a few squares.

它需要这么长的时间

It takes so long.

才能把它给显示出来

Only then can it be displayed.

其实这就是硬件上的一个限制

In fact, this is a limitation of the hardware.

因为硬件本身

Because of the hardware itself.

它是

It is

因为它是电子墨水

Because it is electronic ink.

它技术本身是有一个刷新率的限制的

It has a limitation on refresh rate inherent to the technology itself.

所以在早期的电子书上面

So in the early electronic books

早期的电子墨水

Early electronic ink

电子墨水阅读器上面

On the electronic ink reader.

这个是很难去优化到

This is very difficult to optimize.

很好的体验的一个功能吧

It's a feature that provides a great experience.

对

Yes.

你刚在节目开头其实也提到了

You just mentioned it at the beginning of the program.

你们除了传文字的书

Besides transmitting written texts, what else do you offer?

像AZW这种格式

Formats like AZW

你们还会支持一些

Will you still support some?

比较特别的格式的书

A book with a relatively unique format.

比如像漫画什么的

For example, like comics and so on.

这方面能不能也给大家介绍一下

Can you introduce this aspect to everyone as well?

对

Yes

我们支持

We support.

现在在日本支持的是日本的漫画

What is currently supported in Japan is Japanese manga.

然后在美国也支持美国

Then support the United States in America as well.

这里本土的那种漫画

The local type of comic here.

那

That

就是因为我刚刚说的

It's exactly because of what I just said.

可能我不能说就是因为吧

Maybe I can't say it's just because.

这里稍微重新roll back一下

Let's roll back a bit here.

好

Okay.

对我们是支持漫画的

It is supportive of comics for us.

在日本我们支持日本的那种

In Japan, we support that kind of thing in Japan.

正常我们平时会看到的漫画

The kind of comics we usually see.

包括核定本

Including the approved version.

然后在美国

Then in the United States.

我们也支持美国本土的这种英文漫画

We also support this kind of English comic from the United States.

那很多时候

There are many times when...

我们因为各种平台的局限

We are limited by various platforms.

或者是

Or it is

或者是其他的各种文档的格式的原因

Or it could be due to various formats of other documents.

我们会在阅读体验上

We will enhance the reading experience.

做一些创新

Make some innovations.

比如说在

For example, in

比如说在英文的漫画上面

For example, on English comics.

我们会选择

We will choose.

我们有一个叫做panel mode的东西

We have something called panel mode.

这个panel mode在英文里面

This panel mode is in English.

它的意思就是格子

It means grid.

一个格子的一个阅读模式

A reading mode for a grid.

也就是说它的实际的阅读体验

That is to say, its actual reading experience.

就是当你在读一本漫画

It's just that when you are reading a comic.

或者在读一本儿童书

Or reading a children’s book.

这类书籍的它的主要特点就是

The main characteristic of this type of book is

图片的篇幅很大

The size of the image is very large.

但是文字量很少

But the amount of text is very small.

所以你想象说

So you imagine that...

当你在读一本图片很大的时候

When you are reading a book with a lot of pictures.

文字很小的书的时候

When the text in the book is very small.

在小屏幕

On the small screen.

你是阅读体验是很差的

Your reading experience is very poor.

因为你看不清楚那个字

Because you can't see that word clearly.

如果你要看清楚那个图的话

If you want to see that picture clearly.

那你可以选择说去把它给放大

Then you can choose to say to enlarge it.

那也可以使用kindle的这个特殊的功能

That special feature of Kindle can also be used.

叫做panel mode

It's called panel mode.

就是你双击那个文字

Just double-click that text.

它这个文字会弹出来

This text will pop up.

变大

Become bigger.

然后方便你的阅读

Then it will facilitate your reading.

然后你可以就是像你正常读一本书左右

Then you can read it just like you would read a normal book.

这样翻页来跳

Turn the page like this to jump.

不停的跳各种各样的格子

Continuously jumping through various kinds of boxes.

对

Correct.

老实说

To be honest.

我觉得对漫画的支持是这样

I think support for comics is like this.

这是一个很遗憾的事情

This is a very regrettable matter.

可以说

It can be said.

就是说

That is to say.

因为其实你在一个四寸

Because you are actually in a four-inch.

甚至五寸的手机上看漫画

Even viewing comics on a five-inch phone.

阅读体验不可能很好的

The reading experience cannot be very good.

没错

That's right.

所以作为一家电子书平台

So as an e-book platform

你要去支持漫画

You should go support the comic.

这是一个纯粹的商业上的考量

This is purely a commercial consideration.

因为比如说

Because, for example,

我们知道日本是一个漫画大国

We know that Japan is a major country for manga.

所以全民都看漫画

So everyone is watching comics.

所以这个市场肯定是在哪

So this market must be somewhere.

大家肯定有这个需求

Everyone must have this need.

而且漫画尤其有这个需求

Moreover, there is especially this demand for comics.

因为我们知道

Because we know

一套非常非常大

A very, very large set.

有可能几十本书

It could be dozens of books.

对吧

Right?

现在这不像以前了

It’s not like it used to be anymore.

现在大家如果觉得能在电子市面上看

Now everyone feels that they can see it in the electronics market.

当然是一种很大的

Of course, it is a very significant thing.

有一种如释重负的感觉

There is a feeling of relief.

但是虽然这个商业需求是完全合理的

However, this business demand is entirely reasonable.

但是你难免觉得

But you can't help but feel.

因为你知道漫画的画师或漫画家

Because you know the artist or the cartoonist of the comic.

他是为了一个

He is doing it for a reason.

他是针对一个固定尺寸

He is targeting a fixed size.

一张固定尺寸的纸进行创作的

Created on a sheet of fixed-size paper.

没错

That's right.

对吧

Right?

无论是比如说一开始

No matter if it is, for example, in the beginning.

比如你在那种像什么少年jump

For example, you are in something like Shonen Jump.

这样的杂志上连载

Serialized in such a magazine.

还是之后出单行本

Or will a standalone version be released later?

其实这有一个前提

Actually, there is a premise to this.

就是说你可以一眼看到一整页

That means you can see an entire page at a glance.

而且你不需要

And you don't need to.

他那个字号不会说小到你要

His font size won't be so small that you need to...

你要凑近了才看

You have to get closer to see.

或者像你刚才说要双击什么才看

Or like you just said, double-click something to see.

所以我觉得像哪怕你到了

So I think even if you arrive...

怎么说到了iPad mini那样的尺寸

How do you say it has reached the size of an iPad mini?

其实看漫画都OK了

Actually, it's fine to just read comics.

但是你硬是要让人们在手机上看漫画

But you insist on making people read comics on their phones.

其实这是一个相当吃力不讨好的一种作用

In fact, this is quite a thankless job.

我记得我在Kindle上唯一买过的一本漫画

I remember the only comic book I ever bought on Kindle.

是在Kindle日本店买的

It was bought from the Kindle Japan store.

当时买的是就进击的巨人吧

At that time, what I bought was Attack on Titan, right?

就进击巨人最火的那一段时间

During the time when Attack on Titan was most popular.

因为当时我纯粹只是想看一下

Because at that time I purely just wanted to take a look.

Kindle是怎么解决这个漫画问题的

How does Kindle solve the comic book problem?

但是当时看到其实非常失望

But at that time, I was actually very disappointed.

其实他那时候还没有你说这个功能

Actually, he didn't have the feature you mentioned back then.

所以那时候我买到的其实就是一张张图片

So what I actually bought at that time was just a bunch of pictures.

在不同的平台上面

On different platforms.

他的体验是不一样的

His experience is different.

如果你是在iOS上的这个体验的话

If you are having this experience on iOS

对于日本漫画

Regarding Japanese manga.

我们在e-ink上面

We are on e-ink.

他的体验是四格放大

His experience is a fourfold amplification.

就是你双击他的一个角落的话

If you double-click on one of his corners.

他会相当于把一个图片分成四个部分

He would essentially divide an image into four parts.

他会四格放大

He can zoom in four times.

然后你可以左右来navigate

Then you can navigate left and right.

他不同的格子

His different boxes.

在iOS上面因为他的刷新率比较好

On iOS, because its refresh rate is better.

对吧

Right?

所以你是可以随意双击放大

So you can double-click to zoom in at will.

然后左右扯动

Then pull left and right.

然后你想读哪里读哪里

Then you can read wherever you want.

对

Yes.

当然我同意

Of course I agree.

在一个小的尺寸的屏幕上面

On a small-sized screen.

这个体验是非常不好的

This experience is very bad.

对

Correct.

就是

That is it.

说白了大家不要想在手机上去读漫画

In short, don't expect to read comics on your phone.

对

Yes.

用iPad mini或者是其他的平板电脑

Use an iPad mini or other tablet computers.

可能是最好的选择

It might be the best choice.

或者就是用网络版

Or just use the online version.

说到日本漫画这件事情

Speaking of Japanese manga...

其实有个很有趣的故事

Actually, there is a very interesting story.

就是当我们在

It's just that when we are in...

因为Kindle Cloud Reader现在也是支持日本漫画的

Because Kindle Cloud Reader now also supports Japanese manga.

当我们在做这件事情的时候

When we are doing this thing.

其实有一个非常有趣的现象

In fact, there is a very interesting phenomenon.

就是我们发现大部分在日本畅销的书

We have found that most of the bestselling books in Japan...

畅销的漫画书

Bestselling comic books

它的尺度都是非常高的

Its scale is非常高的.

当我在说尺度的时候

When I talk about scale.

就是成人尺度

It is an adult scale.

所以当时我们在办公室里面做测试的时候

So at that time when we were testing in the office

其实经常会遇见一个非常尴尬的情况

In fact, I often encounter a very awkward situation.

就是你要看这本书

You just need to read this book.

你要拿这本测试书来做一个测试

You need to use this testing book to conduct a test.

然后当你打开这个书的内容的时候

Then when you open the content of this book.

你会觉得说

You might feel like saying

我不好意思在办公室打开这本书

I feel embarrassed to open this book in the office.

NSFW是吧

Is it NSFW?

对

Yes.

Not safe for work

一度我们很多人的屏幕上面

At one point, on the screens of many of us.

都一定要找到

Must find them all.

在这本书里面找到一个合适的

Find a suitable one in this book.

放在办公室里面不会出问题的一个一页

A one-page document that won't cause any issues when placed in the office.

然后再来做测试

Then come back to do the test.

这很有趣

This is very interesting.

因为你知道吗

Because you know, right?

我们等会可能会提到KF8这个格式

We might mention the KF8 format later.

这个是Kindle支持的一种

This is a type supported by Kindle.

怎么说

How to say?

复杂排版

Complex typesetting

或者有各种多媒体功能的一种电子书格式

Or an e-book format with various multimedia features.

这个格式出来之后

After this format comes out

我就很好奇

I'm just very curious.

我很想知道

I would really like to know.

这个格式的电子书是一种什么样的境界

What kind of realm is this format of e-book?

然后后来就很难找

Then it became very difficult to find.

因为Kindle页面上

Because on the Kindle page

就是亚马逊页面上

On the Amazon page.

并没有一个什么KF8专区

There isn't really a KF8 zone.

至少当时是没有

At least there wasn't any at that time.

我不知道现在有没有

I don't know if there is now.

然后我后来好不容易找到一本

Then I finally managed to find a book later.

这本书就是一本色情书

This book is an erotic book.

应该说情色书吧

It should be called an erotic book.

它有各种女人在一个茶室里被捆绑

It features various women bound in a tea room.

SM那样的照片

Photos like that from SM.

然后那是我找到的唯一一本

Then that was the only book I found.

然后那个时候IOS

Then at that time iOS

Kindle还是不支持KF8格式的

Kindle still does not support KF8 format.

所以我不得不用我Nexus 7

So I have to use my Nexus 7.

的Android平板来看这本书

Read this book on an Android tablet.

然后我们就直接可以继续往下说了

Then we can directly continue to talk about it.

我们刚才提到说

We just mentioned that.

对漫画的支持

Support for comics

但是当然所谓的复杂排版

But of course, the so-called complex typesetting.

也就是纯文字以外的排版

That is typography beyond just pure text.

不只是漫画

Not just a comic.

还有各种各样

There are all kinds of things.

更加难度更加高

The difficulty is even higher.

更加华丽的一些例子

Some more glamorous examples.

比如说可能最极端的例子

For example, perhaps the most extreme case.

我们所知道的

What we know

包括我们之前在IT工论

Including our previous discussions in IT.

提到的就是像push bar press出的那本

What is mentioned is the one published by Push Bar Press.

叫Our Choice

Called Our Choice

然后比它晚一点的例子

Then an example a little later than it.

有一本叫Earth Primer

There is a book called Earth Primer.

我不知道你看过没有

I don't know if you have seen it or not.

没有

No.

Earth Primer就是一本

Earth Primer is a book.

它是应该是教年纪比较小的读者

It should be aimed at younger readers.

给他们讲解这个地球的构造

Explain to them the structure of the Earth.

比如什么是地壳

For example, what is the crust?

然后地球的内部

Then the interior of the Earth.

它把一个地球像西瓜一样的切开

It slices open a planet like a watermelon.

然后给你看里面内部是什么样的

Then I'll show you what it looks like inside.

比如说core

For example, core.

是什么mento是什么

What is mento?

然后volcano是怎么形成的

So how is a volcano formed?

对吧

Right?

它这个选题就是大家听到就会觉得

This topic immediately makes everyone feel...

就非常适合做成一本多媒体的电子书

It is very suitable to be made into a multimedia e-book.

而事实上它也确实就是花了很多的心思

In fact, it really did take a lot of effort.

就基本上这是一个

Basically, this is a...

按照一般人的归类

According to the classification of an ordinary person.

这已经不是一本书了

This is no longer a book.

这是一个app

This is an app.

然后它里面有大量的这种交互

Then it contains a large number of such interactions.

比如你可以用手去在地球内部的岩浆那里去扫摸

For example, you can use your hands to touch the magma inside the Earth.

然后你可以看到岩浆的这种流动

Then you can see this flow of magma.

然后这种流动怎么样对于地壳表面产生什么样的变化

Then how does this flow affect the changes on the surface of the crust?

比如造成火山的喷发

For example, causing a volcanic eruption.

如此类的

Such things

图文并茂

Illustrated with images and text.

然后交互性非常的强

Then the interactivity is very strong.

而且这种交互性是

Moreover, this interactivity is

它是选对了主题的

It has chosen the right theme.

它不是为了交互而交互

It is not for interaction's sake.

它不是为了告诉你我们的编程能力设计能力多好

It is not meant to tell you how good our programming and design capabilities are.

对吧

That's right.

这确实是一个非常精彩的例子

This is indeed a very wonderful example.

那么这是属于一个极端

So this belongs to an extreme.

然后另一个极端是

Then the other extreme is

比如说纯文字

For example, pure text.

比如这本言情小说

For example, this romance novel.

它就是一本纯文字的书

It's a book made up entirely of text.

对吧

Right?

那么在这中间

So in between this

我觉得KF8其实最终是希望能够做到那种非常华丽的效果

I think KF8 actually hopes to achieve a very glamorous effect in the end.

但是我不知道你熟不熟悉这个格式

But I don't know if you are familiar with this format.

以它现在的发展的一个状况

In its current state of development.

我对这个格式

I am not satisfied with this format.

其实有所了解

Actually, I have some understanding.

因为这是我们平时经常会用到的一个东西

Because this is something we often use in our daily life.

其实KF8它主要的相对于旧版本的一个提升是

Actually, the main improvement of KF8 compared to the old version is

它支持了很多HTML5和CSS3的一些特性

It supports many features of HTML5 and CSS3.

所以使这本书

So this makes the book

使书文件的这个交互性会变得比以前强

The interactivity of this document will become stronger than before.

然后排版上面可能会比以前要好看

The layout may look better than before.

那KF8它只是一个笼统的一个称呼

The KF8 is just a general term.

对于这个新格式的称呼

Regarding the name for this new format.

它下面有很多很多小的细分的

It has many small subdivisions underneath.

所以

好吧

Alright.

其实关于KF8

Actually, regarding KF8

我觉得我们也就到此打住吧

I think we should just stop here.

因为一方面这个格式本身它是一个

Because on one hand, this format itself is a...

怎么说

How to say?

就像刚才讲的

Just like what was mentioned earlier.

你普通的读者

You ordinary reader.

你在亚马逊的网站上

You are on Amazon's website.

你找不到这样的一个所谓的KF8专区

You won't be able to find such a so-called KF8 section.

事实上

In fact

我相信在亚马逊看来

I believe in Amazon's view.

最好大家也没有必要去关注这样的东西

It's best not for everyone to pay attention to such things.

对吧

Right?

最终我们看到的一本书

The book we ultimately saw.

它背后是什么样的格式

What kind of format is behind it?

可能这其实是用户不需要去关心的一件事情

Perhaps this is something that users actually don't need to worry about.

所以这里我们也不多说

So we won't say much about it here.

不过还有个问题

But there is still a question.

我不知道很多人是不是清楚

I don't know if many people are aware.

当你在一个阅读器里

When you are in a reader

然后你的书架上摆了很多书的时候

Then when there are many books on your bookshelf.

这一个个书其实有一点

These books actually have a little bit.

跟你的手机上的一个个APP是有共通的地方

There are commonalities with each app on your phone.

他们是可以被更新的

They can be updated.

对

Correct.

其实这也是电子书的最大的一个优势

In fact, this is also the biggest advantage of e-books.

比如说我这本书出版的时候

For example, when my book was published.

它是少一些插画的

It has fewer illustrations.

当用户跟我反映了之后

After the user reflected to me.

跟出版商反映了之后

After reflecting with the publisher.

出版商说我们给这个电子书的产品多一些插画

The publisher said we should add more illustrations to this e-book product.

甚至于说我们把它变得更fancy一点

Even say that we can make it a bit fancier.

改一个格式

Change a format.

改一个更好的展示方式

Change to a better display method.

或者改一个排版

Or change the layout.

这种书只要不是在已经下载到你的客户端里面的话

This kind of book can only be accessed if it is not already downloaded to your client.

它都是可以在服务器端被更改的

It can all be changed on the server side.

当你下一次再下载这个书的时候

The next time you download this book.

你就会得到新的功能

You will gain new features.

甚至有的时候客户端会提示你说

Sometimes the client may prompt you by saying

这本书的内容更新了

The content of this book has been updated.

你可以删除这本书

You can delete this book.

重新下载一遍来看到更新的内容

Redownload it to see the updated content.

对

Correct.

我遇到过这种情况

I have encountered this situation.

当然就是比如说在这点

Of course, for example, at this point.

在iBooks里会做的好一点

It would be better to do it in iBooks.

就iBooks整个让你

Just let you have the whole iBooks.

它在视觉上做的跟APP Store就很像

It visually resembles the App Store quite a bit.

它会有专门一个update

There will be a specific update for it.

对吧

Right?

有更新这么一个区域

There is an update in this area.

以前我们做字节社的时候

When we were working at Byte Company.

字节社也有这么一个区域

ByteDance also has such an area.

然后Kindle它没有这样一个区域

Then the Kindle doesn't have such an area.

它就有时候那个书上面会有一个小的

Sometimes there will be a small one on the book.

像脚标一样的东西

Something like a footnote.

提示你有的更新就是这样

This is how you have the updates.

大部分的时候

Most of the time

这件事情其实是对于用户来说

This matter is actually for the users.

也是不太需要被知道的

It doesn’t really need to be known.

因为我不知道大家读书的方式是怎么样

Because I don't know how everyone reads.

但是我的理解是更多的时候

But my understanding is that more often than not.

你可能你的账户里面有大概50本书

You might have about 50 books in your account.

或者是20本书

Or it could be 20 books.

你实际上在读的就那么一两本书

You are actually only reading one or two books.

那不在你本地的书籍

The books that are not available in your local area.

其实都是在云端

Actually, it's all in the cloud.

那在云端的话

Then in the cloud.

它各种update对你本身是没有影响的

Its various updates have no impact on you personally.

所以实际上这种情况出现的概率是非常小的

So in fact, the probability of this situation occurring is very small.

而且就算是比如说你已经下载了的书

Moreover, even if, for example, you have already downloaded the book.

然后它提示你有更新

Then it prompts you that there are updates available.

我记得早年有很多人会问说

I remember many people would ask in the early years.

我希望像软件一样有一个release notes

I hope to have release notes like software.

就是告诉你具体哪里改变了

It’s just telling you exactly where it has changed.

但是这个很多时候不太现实

But this is often not very realistic.

因为就是说你有时候它可能只改了几个错字

Because sometimes it may only correct a few typos.

它有没有必要告诉你呢

Is it necessary to tell you?

当然我知道软件人的想法一定是所有的

Of course, I know that the thoughts of software people are certainly everything.

任何东西就必须要留下记录

Anything must be recorded.

然后一定要有documentation

Then there must be documentation.

否则之后的维护会变得非常的困难

Otherwise, the maintenance afterwards will become very difficult.

但这样一种思路其实在书籍的更新上是很难复制的

However, this kind of thinking is actually very difficult to replicate in the updating of books.

因为就像以前比如在纯纸书的时代

Because it's like in the past, for example, during the era of pure paper books.

也有所谓的第二版第三版

There is also a so-called second edition and third edition.

然后每一版的时候

Then every version/edition.

特别是有些教科书它每一版

Especially some textbooks, each edition of them...

这个知识每天都在更新

This knowledge is updated every day.

然后可能它过了五年再重新写一本

Then it might take another five years to write a new book.

比如编程的教科书的时候

For example, when writing a programming textbook.

它需要增加很多很多内容

It needs to add a lot, a lot of content.

这种情况下

In this case.

可能你会需要大体的在前言里

You may need a general overview in the introduction.

或者比如说第二版序里面会讲一下

Or for example, in the preface of the second edition, it will mention.

但是一般来说不会特别细致的说

But generally speaking, it won't be said in a particularly detailed manner.

但是如果有的像比如散文集这种东西

But if there are things like essay collections, for example,

然后出了第二版的时候

Then when the second edition was released

可能作者只不过是把一些

The author might just be putting together some...

他那个时候看着不顺眼的句子给它稍微挪了一下

He slightly adjusted the sentences that he found unattractive at that time.

修改了一下对吧

It's been modified a bit, right?

而且如果比如一本散文集是在1990年代出的第一版

Moreover, if, for example, a collection of essays was first published in the 1990s

然后到了2012年要出第二版的时候

Then when it was time to release the second edition in 2012.

2012年的作者他已经不再是1990年代那个人了

The author of 2012 is no longer the person he was in the 1990s.

当年他觉得看着顺眼的句子

The sentences he found pleasing to the eye back then.

可能在2012年都看的会完全不顺眼

You might find it completely unappealing even if you watched it in 2012.

所以这个时候怎么说

So how to say it at this time?

所以这些改动很多时候其实是相当的arbitrary的

So these changes are often quite arbitrary.

它不像软件的更新

It's not like a software update.

它背后一定是有理据的

There must be a reason behind it.

可能是产品经理和程序员和老板开会之后的结果

It may be the result of a meeting after the product manager, programmers, and the boss got together.

对吧

Right?

他们是有一个决策的过程

They have a decision-making process.

然后他做一定的改动一定是有道理的

Then his modifications must make sense.

但是书的更新很多时候

But the updates to the book are often many.

除非你是

Unless you are

比如说研究这个作家的学者或者什么

For example, scholars studying this writer or something.

其实对于大部分人来说并不是那么的重要

In fact, it is not that important for most people.

对吧

Isn't it?

对

Correct.

而且大家就像我们刚刚前面提到了

Moreover, everyone is just like we mentioned earlier.

当你出版一本书

When you publish a book

让他把它从一个作者那里改版的版本

Let him revise it from a version by an author.

然后再传达到一路传达下来

Then pass it down all the way.

流到出版商

Flow to the publisher.

然后最后到电子书的出版商分发者

And then finally to the e-book publishers and distributors.

然后最后到你的客户端

Then finally to your client.

这是一个很漫长的过程

This is a very long process.

所以这中间所要

So what is needed in between?

所以当你看到一部的书有错误

So when you see a book with errors

你可能明天回去看的时候

You might go back to see it tomorrow.

你可能他还会有错字

You might still have typos.

你隔两天下载下来

You can download it every other day.

删掉再下载下来

Delete it and download it again.

他还会有错字

There will still be typos.

这个时候你去

You go at this time.

可能你就需要理解说

You might need to understand that.

这中间所有的更新都是需要花时间的

All the updates in between take time.

就跟所有的软件更新也是一样

It's just like all software updates.

因为这毕竟是人手动才去做的一件事情

Because this is something that is done manually by people after all.

对

Correct.

而且但还有一个原因是

Moreover, there is still one reason that is...

在书这一块整个工具链条是非常的不成熟的

The entire toolchain in the book sector is very underdeveloped.

而且也是缺乏标准的

Moreover, it also lacks standards.

比如在软件的整个的版本控制

For example, in the overall version control of the software.

更新管理

Update management

是有应该说有很多套不同的工具

There are indeed many different sets of tools.

对吧

Right?

比如像什么像git

For example, something like git.

是吧

Is that so?

对

Correct.

像很多人用github

Like many people use GitHub.

这都是软件工程师们是多多少少是有共识的一种东西

This is something that software engineers generally have a consensus on to some extent.

但是如刚才罗亦文所说

But as Luo Yiwen just mentioned.

你一本书如果要更新

If you want to update a book.

首先你要找到原来的作者

First, you need to find the original author.

跟他讲清楚这件事情

Explain this matter to him clearly.

可能就要花一定的时间了

It may take some time.

然后你要等他做决策

Then you have to wait for him to make a decision.

说我愿不愿意合作

Ask me if I am willing to cooperate.

愿不愿意参与这样的事情

Are you willing to participate in such matters?

然后最终你用

Then in the end you use

他没有工具链

He doesn't have a toolchain.

作者很可能不知道什么是git

The author probably doesn't know what git is.

然后也没有一个现成的

Then there isn't a ready-made one either.

就像我一开始讲说

Just as I mentioned at the beginning.

可能原始的电子版的

It may be the original electronic version.

这个没有错字的版本是indesign文件

This version without typos is an InDesign file.

那这个作者

Then this author

就算一个作者是一个玩电脑玩得很溜的人

Even if an author is someone who is very skilled at playing on the computer

也很难保证他的电脑上一定有indesign这个软件

It is also difficult to guarantee that he definitely has the InDesign software on his computer.

所以这里就牵涉很多很多的问题

So this involves a lot of issues.

所以这个工作会变得非常的困难

So this job will become very difficult.

而且很多时候就是

And many times it's just that.

大家就从出版社的角度来说

Everyone is speaking from the perspective of the publisher.

会觉得做这样的事情很入不敷出吧

Would feel that doing such things is very unprofitable, right?

对

Correct.

OK我们刚才讲的都是渲染层面的事情

Okay, what we just discussed was all about the rendering aspect.

就是说这本书最终呈现出来

This means that the book is finally presented.

他长什么样

What does he look like?

他的排版怎么样

How is his layout?

然后他用什么样的字体

Then what kind of font did he use?

用什么样的字号

What font size to use?

然后等等等等

Then wait, wait, wait.

然后当然我们都知道这个电子书软件

Then of course we all know this eBook software.

还有另外一块

There is another piece.

这个罗一文刚才有介绍过

This Luo Yiwen was just introduced.

就是他的这个UI层交互层

It is his UI interaction layer.

也就是说书架对吧

So you're saying it's a bookshelf, right?

对书架的部分就是基本上是你账户里面有什么书

The part about the bookshelf is basically what books you have in your account.

然后电子书软件通过一种方式展现给你

Then the e-book software presents it to you in a certain way.

大部分可能都是用格子的格式

Most of them are likely in a grid format.

或者是用列表的格式来展现给你看

Or it could be presented to you in a list format.

那你通过你通过这个列表

Then you go through this list.

你可以跟他做不同的交互

You can have different interactions with him.

比如说你可以下载

For example, you can download.

你可以把它放到不同的文件夹

You can put it in different folders.

或者是你可以分享给别人

Or you can share it with others.

那就是图书馆或者是library或者是书架的部分

That is the library or the library section or the bookshelf part.

那其实在当你打开这本电子书

Actually, when you open this ebook...

然后看到这个reader就是内容的部分的时候

Then when I saw this reader, it was the content part.

你其实会留意到它上下有工具栏

You might actually notice the toolbar above and below it.

然后它还有一些比如说右键菜单的这些功能

It also has some features, such as the right-click menu.

这些功能也是属于我所说的这个交互的部分的

These functions are also part of what I referred to as this interaction aspect.

嗯

Um.

所以这一块你当时在做Kindle的时候

So when you were working on Kindle at that time...

有遇到过什么比较大的挑战

Have you encountered any significant challenges?

或者比较有趣的经历

Or perhaps a more interesting experience.

可以跟大家说一下吗

Can I talk to everyone about it?

我觉得挑战的话其实真的就不是特别多

I feel that there really aren't many challenges.

但是有趣

But it's interesting.

因为怎么说吧

Because how should I put it?

就是当我作为一个程序员

It is when I am working as a programmer.

我觉得大部分的程序员都是这样子

I think most programmers are like this.

就是当你需要做一件事情的时候

It's just when you need to do something.

可能你的PM已经帮你把需求给define的非常好了

Maybe your PM has already defined the requirements really well for you.

他可能你的PM到你这来说是

He might be your PM coming here to you.

好我们今天要加一个搜索的功能

Okay, today we need to add a search function.

那你所需要解决的挑战

The challenge you need to solve.

其实是跟电子书格式本身可能是没有太大关系的

Actually, it may not be closely related to the eBook format itself.

对吧

Right?

对

Yes.

那你别说了

Then don't say anything.

你说到搜索的话

Speaking of search,

搜索在早年并不是那么容易做的事情

Searching was not so easy to do in the early years.

对

Correct.

早年的移动设备的性能来讲

In terms of performance of early mobile devices

对

Yes.

所以搜索方面

So in terms of search.

其实我们可以稍微展开说一下搜索这件事情

In fact, we can elaborate a bit on the matter of search.

就是因为我们知道Google做搜索的时候

It is precisely because we know that Google performs searches when...

它是需要把整个互联网给index一下

It needs to index the entire internet.

就是索引一下

Just index it a bit.

对

Correct.

其实作为电子书的话也是一样

Actually, it’s the same for e-books.

因为电子书它就是有很多很多的内容

Because e-books have a lot of content.

比如说你要search一个词

For example, if you want to search for a word.

如果你只是单纯的从这个文件的

If you are simply looking at this document from the perspective of...

比如说20万个词里面搜索两个词

For example, searching for two words within 200,000 words.

或者把这个词出现的200个地方找出来的话

Or find the 200 places where this word appears.

实际上是一个非常大的功能

In fact, it is a very large feature.

功成量

Merit measurement

对的

That's right.

这点可能很多人没有办法理解的一点

This is something that many people may not be able to understand.

其实电子书它是什么

In fact, what is an e-book?

它无非就是一个非常大的文本文件

It is nothing more than a very large text file.

对吧

Right?

对

Correct.

所以当你在做这件事情的时候

So when you are doing this thing

你是需要

You are needed.

我们为了提供给用户一个更好的用户体验的时候

When we aim to provide users with a better user experience

我们是需要在这上面想很多办法的

We need to think of many ways to address this.

想出来的它这个解决方案

The solution it came up with.

我可能不太能仔细的说

I might not be able to explain in detail.

但是它的output可能会是一个附加的一个内容

However, its output may include an additional piece of content.

加在这个电子书本身的文件上面

Add to the file of this e-book itself.

这就是之前我们提到说

This is what we mentioned before.

当一本电子书它从出版商那里传到亚马逊的服务器上之后

When an eBook is transmitted from the publisher to Amazon's servers.

我们可能会需要去做一些更多的processing

We may need to do some more processing.

除了加密以外

Apart from encryption.

我们可能会给它加一些更多的内容相关性词条

We might add some more content-related keywords to it.

或者是特殊的tag

Or it could be a special tag.

特殊的metadata来说一下这本书的特性

Talk about the characteristics of this book in terms of special metadata.

甚至于关于search的一些索引啊

Even some indexes related to search, ah.

还有其他相关的东西

There are other related things.

对了

By the way.

我记得在iPad一代刚出来的时候

I remember when the first generation iPad was released.

2010年的时候

In 2010.

那个时候其实

At that time, actually

那时候Kindle已经有三年了嘛

At that time, the Kindle had already been out for three years.

但那个时候你要在比如像一代iPad那种性能上要实现全文搜索

But at that time, you had to achieve full-text search on performance similar to that of the first-generation iPad.

其实并不容易

Actually, it is not easy.

或者说你实现了之后它的用户体验可能很差

Or you could say that after you implement it, the user experience might be very poor.

你要等很久才能够出来对吧

You have to wait a long time before you can go out, right?

对而且这个时候可能会有人会想到说

Yes, and at this time, someone might think to say...

你为什么要做全文搜索呢

Why do you want to perform a full-text search?

比如说你像Google search的时候

For example, when you search on Google.

它可能就是在网上search

It might just be searching online.

然后直接给你一个结果你就可以了对吧

Then I can just give you a result directly, right?

但实际上你要想到

But in reality, you have to consider that.

大部分的阅读电子书的这个场景都是在offline的情况下

Most of the reading of e-books occurs in an offline context.

就是你无法确认说用户是不是在一个保持internet连接的状况下使用这个功能

You cannot confirm whether the user is using this feature under a situation with an active internet connection.

所以很多时候你的搜索必须得是在本地完成的

So most of the time, your search must be done locally.

因为如果你不在本地提供这个功能的话

Because if you don't provide this feature locally

那会是一个非常confusing的experience

That would be a very confusing experience.

用户不会知道说因为我连着网

The user won't know that it's because I'm connected to the internet.

所以我可以search

So I can search.

我没有联网了

I am not connected to the internet anymore.

所以我不可以search

So I cannot search.

对而且用户的默认期待一定是我这个书已经下载下来了

Yes, and the user's default expectation must be that this book has already been downloaded.

凭什么要联网才能够搜索

Why do you need to be online to search?

而且搜索一本书里关键字

And search for keywords in a book.

其实我认为这是被低估的一个电子书的一个最大的优势之一

In fact, I think this is one of the biggest advantages of e-books that is often underestimated.

对吧

Right?

大家经常说到的电子书的优势是说轻便

The advantage of e-books that everyone often talks about is their convenience.

没有重量

No weight.

可以带好多本

You can bring a lot of books.

这些固然都是了

These are indeed all true.

但是这种检索其实是非常非常重要的

But this kind of retrieval is actually非常非常重要的.

因为很多时候你的脑子里可能记住了

Because many times your mind might remember.

真的就是某一段话

It really is a certain passage.

里的某两个关键字

Two key words in it.

你就搜就可以搜到

You just need to search, and you can find it.

比如说我很喜欢的美剧叫Seinfeld

For example, my favorite American TV show is called Seinfeld.

那么Seinfeld里面很多对白我是记得的

I remember a lot of dialogues from Seinfeld.

然后有时候我想知道这个对白是哪一集的

Then sometimes I want to know which episode this dialogue is from.

因为刚好有一个网站叫Seinfeldscripts.com

Because there happens to be a website called Seinfeldscripts.com.

它是把它的所有的剧本

It is all of its scripts.

每一集的剧本都放上去了

The script for each episode has been uploaded.

所以我每次要搜的时候

So every time I want to search,

我只要去Google搜那个site

I just need to search for that site on Google.

冒号Seinfeldscripts.com

Colon Seinfeldscripts.com

然后我搜关键字

Then I searched for keywords.

我记得两个字

I remember two words.

马上我就可以找到是哪一集

I will be able to find out which episode it is soon.

这个对我非常非常有用

This is very, very useful to me.

其实书有时候也是一样的

In fact, sometimes books are the same way.

尤其是因为我经常要写东西

Especially because I often have to write things.

有时候写东西

Sometimes when writing something.

我需要引用书里的一段话

I need to quote a passage from the book.

这个时候全文搜索功能是非常重要的

At this time, the full-text search function is very important.

其实当我们说到这里的时候

Actually, when we talk about this here,

其实我们可以看到过去几年

In fact, we can see the past few years.

和电子书最开始的时候

When e-books first started.

在交互上面已经有很大很大的区别了

There is already a very big difference in interaction.

如果你回去想

If you think about going back.

最初的时候

In the beginning

电子书的一个整个的交互体验

An entire interactive experience of the e-book.

是在模拟你在物理世界中交互的一个体验

It is a simulation of an experience where you interact in the physical world.

比如说电子书它除了展示内容以外

For example, in addition to displaying content, an e-book...

它会给你提供做笔记的功能

It will provide you with the ability to take notes.

它会给你提供加书签的功能

It will provide you with the bookmarking feature.

它是很简单的

It is very simple.

它甚至会告诉你

It will even tell you.

你现在读了这本书的第几页

Which page of the book are you on now?

就是页号甚至于是百分比

It's just the page number or even the percentage.

实际上这都是在模拟一个真实物理世界中

In fact, this is all simulating a real physical world.

你读书的一个体验

An experience of reading books.

但是如果你仔细的看过去Amazon

But if you take a closer look at Amazon...

或者是iBook

Or it could be iBook.

或者是其他的一些电子书厂商所做的事情

Or the actions taken by other e-book manufacturers.

他们实际上已经在功能上面做了一些突破

They have actually made some breakthroughs in functionality.

来创新来给你提供一些

Come innovate to provide you with something.

在纸书上无法提供的体验

An experience that cannot be provided by physical books.

比如像你刚刚所说的Search

For example, as you just mentioned, Search.

然后还有就是像Amazon前几年推出的一个功能

And then there is a feature that Amazon launched a few years ago.

叫做Time left to read

Called Time left to read.

这个功能就是说它给你大概判断一下

This function is basically to give you a rough judgment.

你读完这个章节或者是读完这本书

Did you finish reading this chapter or finish this book?

还需要多少时间

How much more time is needed?

其实这对于很多人来说

In fact, this is the case for many people.

他在读纸书的时候

He is reading a paper book.

我不知道别人的读书习惯是怎么样

I don't know what other people's reading habits are like.

但对于我来说

But for me

有的时候我会大概有一个概念

Sometimes I have a rough idea.

就是说这本书还有这么厚

That means this book is still so thick.

那我可能还要读多久

Then how much longer might I need to read?

我是不是读完这一章节之后再睡觉

Should I finish reading this chapter before going to sleep?

或者是我读完这一章节之后

Or maybe after I finish reading this chapter.

才去上这个厕所之类的

Just went to use this bathroom or something like that.

所以就有很多很多这种新的功能

So there are many, many new features like this.

那这种新的功能上的创新

Then this kind of innovation in functionality

其实随着时间的过去

As time goes by

它有很多很多很好的功能

It has many, many great features.

我不能同意说Time left to read

I cannot agree to say Time left to read.

是一个新的功能

It is a new feature.

它其实恰恰是用来试图来复制

It is actually intended to try to replicate.

就是你刚才说的根据厚度来判断

It's just as you said earlier, judging by thickness.

还需要多长时间

How much longer will it take?

我必须说这个怎么说呢

I have to say, how should I put this?

这很可能是在电子书上的一个

This is likely to be on an e-book.

没有办法的办法

A way with no way out.

就是有这个Time left to read

There is this time left to read.

肯定是更好的

It must be better.

但是它跟你在读纸书的时候

But it's different from when you're reading a physical book.

利用厚度来判断相比

Use thickness to make a comparison.

肯定还是厚着更加方便

It's definitely more convenient to be thick-skinned.

对对

Correct.

在这种阅读体验上面

In this reading experience.

可能真的很难有匹配的

It may really be hard to find a match.

有什么功能能够匹配得了

What features can match it?

对的

That's right.

那其他的方面

What about the other aspects?

其实还有一些比较有趣的功能

In fact, there are some more interesting features.

比如说像popular highlight

For example, like popular highlight.

这个是很早的时候

This is from a long time ago.

亚马逊电子书上就有的一个功能

A feature that is available on Amazon eBooks.

现在其实大家可能知道这个功能

Now everyone might actually know about this feature.

可能会是因为medium

It might be because of the medium.

因为当你去medium读一个博客的时候

Because when you go to Medium to read a blog,

它可能会帮你highlight出来

It may help highlight it for you.

说这个地方被多少个人highlight过

This place has been highlighted by how many people.

实际上这个功能其实在很早的时候

In fact, this feature has actually been around for a long time.

就在Amazon Kindle的电子书上出现了

It just appeared on the e-books of Amazon Kindle.

它大概就是告诉你

It probably just tells you.

你读到这个章节的时候

When you read this chapter

比如说哪本著名著里面有这句话

For example, which famous book contains this sentence?

它被很多人很多人mark过了

It has been marked by many, many people.

我们就会通过一种方式展示在屏幕上

We will display it on the screen in a certain way.

让你知道原来很多很多人都highlight了这个

Let you know that many, many people have highlighted this.

这一段

This段

对这个功能其实是一个非常令人又爱又恨的功能

This feature is actually something that is very love-hate.

因为我也知道有人一定要把这个功能关掉

Because I also know that there are people who definitely want to turn off this feature.

它默认是开的吧

It is set to on by default, right?

我没记错的话

If I remember correctly.

不同客户端不一样

Different clients are not the same.

现在可能可能默认是关掉的

It is likely that it is turned off by default now.

对就是有的人是很不喜欢看到

Yes, there are indeed some people who really do not like to see it.

因为这其实是一种引导

Because this is actually a form of guidance.

就比如说你翻到一页的时候

For example, when you turn to a page...

你发现有个popular highlight

You found a popular highlight.

你可能会先去看那个

You might want to go check that out first.

但是这个可能会令一些

But this might cause some

更愿意线性的去读这样一本书的人感到不快

People who prefer to read such a book in a linear manner feel dissatisfied.

不过这让我想到另外一个问题

However, this makes me think of another question.

就是这种东西

It's this kind of thing.

其实你就想我们以前去图书馆借书

Actually, just think of how we used to go to the library to borrow books.

包括今天去图书馆借书

Including going to the library to borrow books today.

或者我们去二手书店买书的时候

Or when we go to the second-hand bookstore to buy books.

很多时候我们买来的书

Many times the books we buy

上面是有别人写的笔记的

There are notes written by someone else above.

没错

That's right.

然后很多时候你去看别人的笔记是很有乐趣的

Then it's often very enjoyable to look at other people's notes.

但是这里有一个问题

But there is a problem here.

就是说这个人是

That means this person is...

他是personified

He is personified.

就是你能感觉到这后边是有一个人

You can feel that there is someone behind you.

但popular highlight又不一样

But the popular highlight is different.

他那个是

That one of his is...

我只是看到有一堆人

I just saw a bunch of people.

就是这是被画线画的最多的一句话

This is the sentence that has been underlined the most.

是这样一个意思

It means this.

但我不知道是谁在画线

But I don't know who is drawing the lines.

对吧

Right?

我不知道这个背后的人是一个什么样

I don't know what kind of person is behind this.

他的阅读趣味是什么样的

What is his reading taste like?

是男是女

Is it a boy or a girl?

他年纪多大

How old is he?

对吧

Right?

他是哪国人

What nationality is he?

诸如此类这些东西

Things like these.

我们是不知道的

We do not know.

这让我们想到一个

This reminds us of a

没有

None.

我觉得始终没有被满足的一个需求

I feel that there is always an unmet need.

就是所谓的社交阅读

It's what is called social reading.

社交阅读在五六年前是超

Social reading was very popular five or six years ago.

我不能说超火吧

I can't say it's super popular.

但是至少所有

But at least everyone

所有想做电子书

Everyone who wants to create an e-book.

然后又不想仅仅复制纸书体验的创业者

Then there are entrepreneurs who do not want to simply replicate the experience of paper books.

都会想给自己的电子阅读软件

Everyone wants to give their own e-reading software.

增加一个社交功能

Add a social feature.

这方面你是怎么看的

What do you think about this aspect?

我自己认为

I think to myself.

就是我自己在读书的时候

It's just when I was reading by myself.

如果有人来打扰我

If someone comes to disturb me.

或者我可以知道别人的看法

Or I could know other people's opinions.

对于我来说

For me

实际上是一件

In fact, it is a thing.

一个很annoying的

A very annoying one.

很恼人的一个体验

A very annoying experience.

但是我知道很多时候

But I know that many times

尤其是在过去几年

Especially in the past few years.

社交网络这个词非常发达的时候

When the term social network is very developed.

各一个厂商都会有这样的想法

Every manufacturer has such thoughts.

比如说Amazon其实收购了一个

For example, Amazon actually acquired a...

一个网站叫做goodreads

A website called Goodreads.

goodreads就是一个大家在线上交流自己读书的

Goodreads is a platform where everyone can communicate online about their reading.

读后感啊

Reading reflection ah.

或者是给书点评的一个平台

Or a platform for book reviews.

然后现在这个功能也是被integrate

Then this feature is also being integrated now.

就是整合到了kindle上面去

It has been integrated into the Kindle.

也就是说

That is to say.

当你在读这本书的时候

When you are reading this book.

你可以直接连接你的goodreads账号

You can directly connect your Goodreads account.

然后把你的观后感读后感啊

Then read your thoughts and reflections after viewing.

或者是评价发到这个goodreads的网上去

Or maybe post the review on this Goodreads website.

相当于那个社交网络存在的

Equivalent to that social network's existence.

存在于那个goodreads的网上

Exist on that Goodreads website.

但是你可以通过你的电子书

But you can do it through your e-book.

你在这个阅读体验的过程中

During this reading experience

把你的即时的想法分享过去

Share your immediate thoughts.

对

Yes.

goodreads我知道它的存在

I know of the existence of Goodreads.

我自己一直没用过

I have never used it myself.

但我一直是觉得就是说

But I have always felt that...

这个电子书的社交前置

The social pretext of this ebook.

其实并没有被开发出来

In fact, it has not been developed.

这个我自己觉得有点可惜

I think it's a bit of a pity.

因为事实上我觉得这个需求是存在的

Because in fact, I think this demand exists.

就是我们今天都会经常通过截屏的方式

We often use screenshots today.

跟朋友分享书中的片段

Share excerpts from the book with friends.

对吧

Right?

然后有时候可能

Then sometimes it might be

因为现在像个个智能手机

Because now it looks like every smartphone.

它本身它自带的那个图片软件

The image software that comes with it.

都会有一些简单的编辑的功能

There will be some simple editing functions.

你哪怕那个电子书软件

Even if it's that e-book software.

不带任何的什么注记啊

Without any notes or anything.

或者画线的功能

Or the function of drawing lines.

你截屏之后你在上面画个圈什么

What do you mean by drawing a circle on it after you take a screenshot?

都是很容易的事情

It's all very easy things.

所以这个需求一定是存在的

So this demand must exist.

而当年的时候

Back then

当大家都还正在开发

While everyone is still developing.

画线写笔记诸如此类的功能的时候

When performing functions such as underlining and taking notes, etc.

大家对之都抱以厚望

Everyone has high hopes for the capital.

就比如说

For example

我如果在一段话里的两句话上画了线

If I underline two sentences in a paragraph.

然后我写了笔记

Then I took notes.

那这个笔记是应该有一个专门的页面的

Then this note should have a dedicated page.

我知道Kindle其实是有的

I know that Kindle actually exists.

Kindle是有这个页面的

The Kindle has this page.

是有这个页面的

This page does exist.

而且你在这个页面上

And you are on this page.

Kindle的产品经理是有做这个功能的

The product manager for Kindle is working on this feature.

因为我时不时还会看到有

Because I still occasionally see that there are

哪个哪个人

Which person?

哪个哪个ID在Kindle上follow了我

Which ID followed me on Kindle?

我记得我这方面

I remember I have this aspect.

这里是有一个隐私的限制的吧

There should be a privacy restriction here, right?

你可以设定不给别人看的吧

You can set it so that others can't see it, right?

应该是有的

There should be some.

对

Yes.

我并没有在这上面真的进行社交

I didn't really engage in socializing on this.

但我相信这个是

But I believe this is

这是有这个需求的

This is in demand.

就是我们这时候用的社交这个词

The word "social" we use at this moment.

并不是像比如Facebook意义

It's not like the meaning of, for example, Facebook.

或者微信意义上的社交

Or socializing in the WeChat sense.

而是说

Instead, it means.

可能你就有三个你特别信任的朋友

You may have three friends that you particularly trust.

或者阅读趣味跟你特别接近的朋友

Or read with friends who have interests very similar to yours.

很多时候你是

Most of the time you are.

你是想跟他去交流的

You want to communicate with him.

但是我后来发现

But I later found out.

其实是罗一文你告诉我的一个

Actually, it was Luo Yiwen who told me about it.

我之前不知道的Kindle的功能

The Kindle features that I didn't know about before.

在这方面

In this regard

可以说是往前走了一步

It can be said that we have taken a step forward.

就是那个叫什么

It's called what?

什么Preview啊

What preview?

对

Correct.

是叫Kindle Instant Preview

It is called Kindle Instant Preview.

对

Correct.

这个产品

This product

你是有参与这个功能是吧

You are involved in this feature, right?

对

Yes.

这个产品是我从最开始就开始做

I started working on this product from the very beginning.

相当于是我自己和我

It is equivalent to me and myself.

我们team的一个产品

A product from our team.

那这个产品呢

Then what about this product?

它最开始出现的形式是

Its initial form was

你可以在

You can be at

用户可以在客户端里面

Users can be in the client.

当他读到一段有趣的内容

When he reads an interesting passage.

或者是读到一个有趣的书的时候

Or when reading an interesting book.

他可以通过系统的

He can do it through the system.

就是iPad

It's an iPad.

或者是iOS Android

Or it could be iOS or Android.

这种系统的分享栏

The sharing bar of this system.

这个分享功能

This sharing feature

把它分享

Share it.

把这个书的一部分的内容

Part of the content of this book.

或者是这个书的封面啊

Or maybe it's the cover of this book.

或者是各种各样的

Or it could be a variety of things.

跟书相关的信息

Information related to the book.

分享到社交网络的

Share to social networks.

那这个功能到目前为止听起来很正常

Well, this feature sounds quite normal so far.

但是他Kindle在这个地方

But his Kindle is here.

他所做的区别是

The difference he makes is

当你分享了之后

After you have shared.

他除了分享那一段

He only shared that part.

分享的画的

Sharing the painting.

或者是图片的内容以外

Or it could be something outside of the content of the image.

他还给你提供一个link

He also provided you with a link.

那这个link

Then this link.

他所带你去到的地方

The place he took you to.

就是

That's it.

就是这本书的一个sample

This is a sample of the book.

也就是说

That is to say.

他使用了一些web technology

He used some web technology.

来在浏览器上

Come to the browser.

使你能够看到书本身的内容

It allows you to see the content of the book itself.

嗯

Hmm.

我记得

I remember.

我记得之前你给我发过一个链接

I remember you sent me a link before.

就是上面

It's just above.

这个Kindle Instant Preview

This Kindle Instant Preview

是可以嵌入到网页中的一个地方的

It is a place that can be embedded into a webpage.

就是

That is.

当时那个链接是一个书屏

At that time, the link was a book screen.

然后这个书屏的左边

Then on the left side of this bookshelf.

就有小小的一个长方形

There is a small rectangle.

这块就是

This is it.

他所评的这本书的Kindle版的一个preview

A preview of the Kindle edition of the book he reviewed.

那个小的那个窗口里可以读

You can read in that small window.

可以翻页

Can flip the page.

对吧

Right?

对没错

Yes, that's right.

所以我刚刚说

So what I just said

这是Kindle Instant Preview

This is Kindle Instant Preview.

刚刚那个分享的功能

The sharing feature that was just mentioned.

是Kindle Instant Preview最早的一个提现形式

It is the earliest form of manifestation of Kindle Instant Preview.

那他接下来的发展的方向就是

So his next direction for development is

他能够被嵌入到各种各样的网站中

He can be embedded into a variety of websites.

就好像你现在可以嵌入一个YouTube

It's just like you can now embed a YouTube.

或者是优酷的视频

Or it could be a video from Youku.

到你自己的网站

To your own website.

或者到一个

Or to a.

或者是到分享到任何一个地方

Or share it to anywhere.

那

That

我们想做这个

We want to do this.

我们做这个产品的时候的想法是

The idea we had when making this product is...

一个书评人

A book reviewer.

或者是一个作者的博客

Or it is a blog by an author.

甚至于像Guris这种分享书内容的网站

Even websites that share book content like Guris.

他可以嵌入一个这样子的Kindle的sample

He can embed a sample like this into a Kindle.

这样你可以在

This way you can be in.

基本上你就可以在互联网上

Basically, you can find it on the internet.

第一时间读到别人给你分享的这个内容

Read the content that someone shared with you at the first moment.

对

Yes.

这个其实

This actually

就有点像

It's a bit like that.

比如说如果是月评的话

For example, if it is a monthly review,

你上面插一个iTunes的链接

You insert an iTunes link above.

就是此类的

It is of this kind.

然后我注意到

Then I noticed.

这个Instant Preview

This Instant Preview

其实是

Actually it is.

它是完全responsive的

It is fully responsive.

对吧

Right?

对没错

Yes, that's right.

它是支持

It supports.

它是支持各种大小的屏幕

It supports screens of various sizes.

同时也支持手机大小的屏幕

It also supports screens the size of mobile phones.

对

Yes.

因为我现在正在打开一本书的Instant Preview的页面在看

Because I am currently looking at the Instant Preview page of a book.

然后我

Then I

我是在电脑上看吧

I am watching it on the computer.

然后我在随意的拉这个浏览器的大小

Then I casually resize the browser.

它都可以比较迅速的

It can be relatively quick.

就是针对新的这个窗口的大小调整

It is specifically for adjusting the size of this new window.

就你可以把它拖成一个

You can drag it into one.

就像iPhone那么大的一个长方形

A rectangle the size of an iPhone.

对吧

Right?

你也可以如果拖的

You can also if you drag it.

让这个浏览器的窗口变成

Make this browser window become

平常看到的比较宽的那个样子

The one that looks relatively wide that we usually see.

这样它会变成两栏

This way it will become two columns.

所以这方面它是responsive的

So in this regard, it is responsive.

对

Yes.

这是一个比较

This is a comparison.

因为这是我们过去

Because this is our past.

最近两年才做的一个产品

A product that was made only in the past two years.

所以它是用了一些比较新的web technology

So it uses some relatively new web technologies.

然后它也是现在非常符合潮流的responsive design

Then it is also very much in line with the current trend of responsive design.

如果大家想去试一下这个功能

If everyone wants to give this function a try.

我推荐大家去上ProductHunt

I recommend everyone to check out ProductHunt.

ProductHunt这个网站

The website ProductHunt.

它上面有一个专门推荐书的一个区域

It has a dedicated area for recommending books.

只要这本书在亚马逊上是有的

As long as this book is available on Amazon.

有电子书版本的

There is an electronic book version.

它都会有一个Read Now的一个按钮

It will have a "Read Now" button.

你可以点那个Read Now

You can click on that Read Now.

然后读这个内容

Then read this content.

对

Yes.

这是它一个比较

This is a comparison of it.

现在比较流行的一个应用

A currently popular application.

所以这里有一个问题是

So there is a question here.

为什么这个功能做的这么不显眼

Why is this feature so unobtrusive?

因为在一本书的亚马逊的

Because in a book's Amazon

就Kindle书的亚马逊页面上

On the Amazon page for Kindle books.

它是在右下角有一个纯文字的链接

It has a purely text link in the bottom right corner.

叫Embed

Called Embed

然后你是点那个Embed

Then you click on that Embed.

才能够获取这个Instant Preview的链接的

Only by doing so can one obtain the link for this Instant Preview.

这个你不说

You didn't mention this.

其实根本不知道这个功能的

Actually, I don't know about this feature at all.

这个功能现在还在Rollout的一个阶段

This feature is currently still in a rollout phase.

就是我们还在跟很多的

We are still in contact with many.

当我还在那里上班的时候

When I was still working there.

我是2月份离职

I resigned in February.

我还在那里上班的时候

When I was still working there.

还处在一个Rollout的过程中

Still in the process of a rollout.

所以只是一些早期的Partner

So it's just some early partners.

和一些早期的

And some early ones.

就是发现了那个功能的人在使用

It’s just that the person who discovered that feature is using it.

所以就是这个用户也被分成了

So this user has also been categorized.

像AB两个组这样的是吗

Is it like the two groups A and B?

就有些用户可以在页面上看到这个Embed

Some users can see this Embed on the page.

有些人看不到

Some people cannot see.

这个我们已经不太知道

We don't really know about this anymore.

它现在的状况是什么了

What is its current condition?

但是我相信是大部分的人

But I believe it is most people.

都是可以看到Embed

They can all see the Embed.

只要是有Kindle版本

As long as there is a Kindle version.

对因为这个

Because of this

我觉得就算是做测试吧

I think it's just a test.

这个也是非常非常不显眼的

This is also very, very inconspicuous.

因为其实用户在一个

Because in fact, users in a...

书的这个页面上的停留时间是不长的

The time spent on this page of the book is not long.

它有点像Google.com

It's a bit like Google.com.

就是我要拿到了我要的东西我就走

I will take what I want and then leave.

比如我看到一本书我有兴趣

For example, I see a book that I'm interested in.

我肯定我先点Send a free sample

I definitely clicked on "Send a free sample" first.

对吧

Right?

对

Yes.

我点完这个按钮

I press this button.

我直接那个Tab我就关掉了

I just closed that tab directly.

我根本不会去看这个页面上还有什么东西

I wouldn't even bother to see what else is on this page.

而且它为什么要叫Embed

And why is it called Embed?

叫Embed

Called Embed.

首先我想到的是

The first thing that comes to my mind is

如果我有一个博客可以去Embed

If I have a blog that I can embed.

我才会去看它

I would only go to see it.

它根本就没有把Preview这个词说出来

It didn't mention the word "Preview" at all.

如果有的话就可能是另外一回事

If there is, it might be a different matter altogether.

如果你只是想看Preview的话

If you just want to see the Preview.

其实在那个Detail Page

Actually, on that Detail Page.

那个书的Detail Page上面

On the detail page of that book.

一般有个叫Look Inside Book的这个功能

There is generally a feature called Look Inside Book.

就是可以直接看到一个sample的

You can directly see a sample.

我知道

I know.

但是因为你给我讲了

But because you told me.

这个Instant Preview之后

This Instant Preview is after.

我就意识到你把那个链接

I just realized that you put that link.

你可以

You can.

因为它就是个链接嘛

Because it's just a link.

你可以通过任何这个文本传输工具

You can use any of these text transmission tools.

任何IM软件发给别人

Any IM software sent to others.

然后那个人就直接可以看到

Then that person can see directly.

因为以前我一直以为你要看这种Preview

Because I used to think you wanted to see this kind of preview.

你都是得

You always get it.

对吧

Right?

你得

You have to.

Send a sample

发送一个样本

对

Correct.

你得发Free Sample到自己的账号里

You need to send the Free Sample to your own account.

然后你用

Then you use

你用那个App把它打开才可以看

You need to open it with that app to be able to see it.

这个我觉得两者的方便程度是天壤之别了

I think the convenience of the two is poles apart.

没错

That's right.

其实我自己也是非常赞同的

Actually, I also very much agree.

说到这个地方

Speaking of this place.

其实Instant Preview它

In fact, Instant Preview it

我觉得它最好最好的功能

I think its best feature is the best.

除了它是能让你在网页上

Besides, it allows you to... on the webpage.

直接很快的就看到一个sample以外

Directly and quickly saw a sample outside.

它还有一个很好的功能就是

It has another great feature, which is...

它有个Reading Kindle Button

It has a Reading Kindle Button.

这个功能的好处在于说

The benefit of this feature is that it allows for...

当你在读这本sample

When you are reading this sample.

然后你觉得非常有趣的时候

Then when you find it very interesting.

你是可以通过这个按钮

You can do this through this button.

把它加到你自己的Kindle account里面去的

Add it to your own Kindle account.

对

Correct.

所以比如说你给我分享一本书

So for example, you share a book with me.

然后我点

Then I click.

我觉得很有意思

I find it very interesting.

我这样就可以

I can do it like this.

相当于把它给save下来

It's equivalent to saving it.

我在我自己的Kindle App里面是可以看到的

I can see it in my own Kindle App.

对

Correct.

我觉得其实像这些是

I think these are actually like...

确实属于真正的电子书的创新

It is indeed a true innovation of electronic books.

它可能比刚才你说的

It might be more than what you just said.

How many minutes left to read那些

How many minutes left to read those?

可能更加更好

It may be even better.

更加属于那种只有电子书能够做到的事情

It is more of something that can only be done by e-books.

你试想以前

Just imagine the past.

如果我买了一本好书

If I buy a good book.

我要跟朋友分享

I want to share with my friends.

我哪怕今天我可能

Even if I might today

因为指数

Because of the index

我就拍照给对方

I will take a photo and send it to the other party.

这个首先

This first.

怎么说

How to say.

它不经济

It is not economical.

你本来是个纯文本的东西

You were originally a plain text thing.

你一定要以一张图片的方式

You must do it in the form of an image.

而且现在一个iPhone拍的图片

And now a photo taken with an iPhone.

体积完全就不小

The volume is definitely not small.

对吧

Right?

如果对方是一个流量不是很多的人的话

If the other party is someone with not much traffic.

还是会造成一些麻烦

It will still cause some trouble.

是一个非常笨拙的体验

It is a very awkward experience.

对

Yes.

这非常不优雅的一种做法

This is a very inelegant way of doing things.

而现在像Instant Preview这种东西

Now things like Instant Preview

可以让他用一个链接

He can use a link.

一个非常短小轻薄的这样的一段文本

A very short and light piece of text like this.

就把一整串

Just take a whole bunch.

连续好几十页的文字传过去

Dozens of pages of text were sent over.

我觉得这是很好的一个东西

I think this is a really good thing.

对

Correct.

我个人也是觉得这是一个非常好的功能

I personally think this is a very good feature.

只是在marketing上面

It's just in marketing.

其实这个地方要说的是

Actually, what this place is trying to say is

美国方面在kindle的marketing做的

The United States has done marketing for Kindle.

其实并不是特别

Actually, it's not that special.

我自己认为并不是特别好

I personally don't think it's particularly good.

但是我觉得在国内做的是非常不错

But I think what is being done domestically is very good.

所以也许有一天国内的那些kindle的同事

So perhaps one day those Kindle colleagues in the country...

可以帮忙把这个产品推广开吧

Can you help promote this product?

你觉得美国的marketing不好在哪里

What do you think is the downfall of marketing in the United States?

就是

It is.

嗯

Um.

你很少会在社交网络

You rarely appear on social networks.

或者是在任何地方看到kindle

Or see Kindle anywhere.

关于kindle的任何

Anything about Kindle

关于电子书这个部分的任何新闻

Any news regarding the e-book section?

我觉得他们的想法应该是

I think their idea should be.

亚马逊本身是大流量战

Amazon itself is a battle for high traffic.

所以我们不需要在别的地方打广告吧

So we don't need to advertise elsewhere, right?

对

Yes.

但是就算是Facebook Twitter

But even Facebook and Twitter.

今天他们也是在各个地方打广告

Today they are also advertising in various places.

尤其是当

Especially when

像我现在我个人认为是电子书

I personally think it's an e-book now.

实际上是在跟各种各样的媒体

In fact, it is about interacting with various kinds of media.

在竞争用户注意力的时候

When competing for user attention.

如果你不去做一些推广

If you don't do some promotion.

不去做一些相应的marketing

Not doing some corresponding marketing.

你实际上是很难提醒用户说

It is actually very difficult for you to remind users to say.

其实你还可以有看书这个option的

Actually, you also have the option to read books.

对

Yes

所以就确实Instant Preview是个好东西

So Instant Preview is indeed a good thing.

还有什么类似的这种

Are there any similar ones like this?

就是你觉得

It's just that you think.

确实是只有电子书才能做到的东西

Indeed, this is something that can only be done with e-books.

Amazon在去年推出了一个叫做wordwise的功能

Amazon launched a feature called Wordwise last year.

我不记得是去年还是前年

I don’t remember if it was last year or the year before.

这个wordwise的功能其实就是生死体系

The function of this wordwise is actually the life and death system.

中文叫做生死体系

In English, it is called the system of life and death.

尤其是当很多人在读外文书的时候

Especially when many people are reading foreign language books.

读英文书的时候

When reading English books

他会遇见一个单词

He will encounter a word.

然后你很难就是

Then it's hard for you to just...

你当时不知道它是什么意思

You didn't know what it meant at that time.

那你常规的做法可能就是去查字典

Then your usual approach might be to check the dictionary.

去看到这个字典里面给他的翻译是什么

Go see what the translation of this word is in the dictionary.

然后再回来读这本书

Then come back to read this book.

这是一个非常disruptive的一个experience

This is a very disruptive experience.

wordwise这个生死体系的功能

The function of the Wordwise life and death system.

它所要给你做到的事情就是

What it wants to do for you is

它希望能够在你读书的时候

It hopes to be there while you are studying.

给你一个非常inline的一个experience

I'll give you a very inline experience.

用非常简短的词句告诉你

Tell you in very brief phrases.

很难理解的单词它到底是什么意思

It's hard to understand what the word actually means.

你说的这个不是查字典是吧

What you are saying is not looking it up in the dictionary, right?

我说这个不是查字典

I said this is not looking it up in the dictionary.

OK那我可能我还从来没有遇到过这个功能

OK, I might have never encountered this feature before.

这个功能在英文书里面出现的会比较多

This feature appears more frequently in English books.

因为有的时候你经常会看到一个非常长的单词

Because sometimes you often see a very long word.

比如说你误这个单词

For example, you misunderstand this word.

我到现在都不是很会读

I still can't read very well.

那如果你

Then if you

对就是这个单词

Yes, it's this word.

当你看到的时候

When you see it.

就是基本如果你不知道这个词是什么意思

Basically, if you don't know what this word means.

你是没有办法

You have no way.

你是没有办法不用字典来猜出这个词的意思的

You have no way to guess the meaning of this word without a dictionary.

对不对

Isn't that right?

那在kindle上面它所做的一个创新是

One of the innovations it made on Kindle is

它会在两行的行句之间

It will be between the two lines of verse.

给你用很简短的几个词来描述这个词是什么意思

A brief description of what this word means.

所以它帮你

So it helps you.

那这个不是自动的吧

So this is not automatic, right?

这是用户需要去做一个操作才可以出现

This is an operation that the user needs to perform in order for it to appear.

就是这个功能好就好在它是自动的

The good thing about this feature is that it is automatic.

就是kindle相当于在

The Kindle is equivalent to...

看到每一本英文电子书的时候

Every time I see an English e-book

它都会对这个内容做一个扫描

It will scan the content.

扫描之后它会知道说

After scanning, it will know that

里面哪一些单词是比较难

Which words inside are relatively difficult?

哪一些单词是比较容易的

Which words are relatively easy?

它会对那个难的单词加上这个注释

It will add this annotation to that difficult word.

然后你可以关掉吗

Then can you turn it off?

你可以关掉

You can turn it off.

你还可以调整不同的难度

You can also adjust the different levels of difficulty.

比如说你是个native speaker

For example, you are a native speaker.

知道很多词

Know a lot of words.

你可能就不需要这个功能

You might not need this feature.

你可以关掉

You can turn it off.

或者说你把它调成就是我只要看最难的词

Or you could say you set it so that I only see the most difficult words.

那比如说你是一个正在学英文的一个用户

For example, you are a user who is currently learning English.

你正在尝试读一本电子书

You are trying to read an e-book.

你可能就会把那个提示调得更多一点

You might adjust that prompt a bit more.

这实际上是一个非常非常smart

This is actually a very, very smart.

然后非常非常能够体现电子书优势的一个功能

Then a feature that can very well reflect the advantages of e-books.

这个在E-ink上比较有

This is relatively good on E-ink.

在iOS和Android上可能没有

May not be available on iOS and Android.

哦

其实在那个kindle fire上也有的

Actually, it is also available on that Kindle Fire.

哦

对

Correct.

但是就是也就是说以后Android可能会有的比较快

But that means that Android might be faster in the future.

对

Yes.

就是kindle fire

It's just the Kindle Fire.

就是Android的那个产品嘛

It's the product of Android.

就是它是based on Android的

It is based on Android.

所以

哦有的

Oh, there is.

Android上有的

Available on Android.

但是它默认是关闭的

But it is disabled by default.

好吧

Okay.

那我们刚才提到的就是说

What we just mentioned is that...

如果从07年kindle面试算起

If counting from the Kindle interview in 2007

现在电子书已经差不多10年了

E-books have been around for almost 10 years now.

就是更早的像palm pilot

It's like the earlier Palm Pilot.

在那上面看书

Reading books up there.

那就不说了

Then let's not talk about it.

那暂时那是史前史了

Then that's temporarily prehistory.

现代的电子书史差不多有10年

The history of modern e-books is almost ten years.

那站在2016年来看

Looking back from 2016.

你觉得还有什么是你作为一个读者

What do you think you still are as a reader?

觉得特别不满意的

Feeling particularly dissatisfied.

嗯

Hmm.

作为一个读者的角度来说的话

From a reader's perspective.

就是

Just.

有一件事情可能是永远都没有办法满意的

There is one thing that may never be satisfactory.

就是说我想找的这本书它不一定会有电子书的版本

That is to say, the book I want to find may not necessarily have an electronic version.

这是很多

This is a lot.

我相信这是很多电子书用户都共享的一个沮丧点吧

I believe this is a frustration shared by many e-book users.

但这个

But this

我很意外

I am very surprised.

你说的第一点是这个

The first point you mentioned is this.

这没有这没有

There is none, there is none.

我想说的点有很多

There are many points I want to make.

这没有一个特别的顺序的一个程度的排序

This is a ranking of degrees without a particular order.

Okay

但为什么你知道为什么吗

But why do you know why?

因为这这一点其实我对他的看法是很暧昧的

Because of this, my opinion on him is actually quite ambiguous.

因为一方面很显然在今天

Because on one hand it is clear that today...

Kindle书已经越来越多了

There are more and more Kindle books now.

你可以说基本上新书都是有Kindle版的

You can basically say that new books all have a Kindle version.

没错

That's right.

而且以前在四五年前

Moreover, four to five years ago.

我经常在推特上抱怨的某几个人的书

The books of certain people I often complain about on Twitter.

比如像那个苏珊桑塔格的书

For example, like that book by Susan Sontag.

当时大部分是没有Kindle版

At that time, most of them did not have a Kindle version.

现在都有了

It's all available now.

就很多我一直希望有Kindle版的书慢慢都有了

Many books that I've always hoped would be available in Kindle version are slowly becoming available.

那当然

Of course.

但另一方面我也很清楚你是你说的

But on the other hand, I am also very clear that you are what you say.

就是说美国有很多特别好的二手书店

That is to say, there are many particularly good second-hand bookstores in the United States.

在这种书店里比如说有一些

In this kind of bookstore, for example, there are some...

像可能出版于70年代的书

A book that may have been published in the 1970s.

像我最近买了一本是讲古典音乐和中产阶级的关系

Recently, I bought a book that discusses the relationship between classical music and the middle class.

而且他讲的不是比如今天

And what he is talking about is not, for example, today.

他是讲的是1718世纪19世纪

He is talking about the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.

就那个时候中产阶级是

At that time, the middle class was

因为那时候没有唱片

Because there were no records at that time.

他们要去消费音乐

They want to consume music.

他们得自己让自己家的女儿去学音乐

They have to make their own daughter learn music.

比如可能有钱人就送女儿去跟肖邦去学钢琴

For example, wealthy people might send their daughters to learn piano with Chopin.

这样的一种状态

Such a state.

所以那个时候中产阶级的形成

So at that time, the formation of the middle class.

跟这个古典音乐本身是有很密切的关系的

It is closely related to this classical music itself.

像这样的书

Books like this.

他比较专门

He is more specialized.

然后出版于70年代之后没有再版的话

If it was published in the 1970s and has not been reprinted since.

无论是出版商还是Kindle

Whether it's a publisher or Kindle.

还有亚马逊那边其实都没有太多的动力

There isn't much motivation from Amazon's side either.

去把它做成Kindle版

Go turn it into a Kindle version.

所以而且这类书很多时候是非常有价值的

Therefore, many times this type of book is very valuable.

他呈现了一种跟今天不一样的文体

He presented a style that is different from today's.

跟今天不一样的价值观

Values that are different from today.

和今天不一样的观点

A perspective different from today.

而且有很多当年大家关心的话题

Moreover, there are many topics that people were concerned about back then.

今天已经就是比较少

Today is already quite rare.

人在写了

Someone is writing.

所以这些书有它的价值

So these books have their value.

但这些书确实很难找到Kindle版

But these books are indeed difficult to find in Kindle format.

那另一方面

On the other hand.

我觉得要给亚马逊这个credit

I think we should give credit to Amazon for this.

就是新的书基本上都有电子版了

Basically, new books all have electronic versions now.

当然我想ibooks那边也会有了

Of course, I think it will also be available on iBooks.

大部分的新书应该都是在各种商家都会有的

Most new books should be available at various retailers.

除了这个以外

Besides this.

我觉得阅读体验上面这件事情

I think this matter regarding the reading experience.

大家都不停的在说了

Everyone keeps saying it.

但我觉得阅读体验这件事情

But I think the reading experience is something that...

如果你是想拿纸质书和电子书去做对比的话

If you are looking to compare physical books and e-books.

那确实还是有很大的

That indeed still has a lot.

差距

Gap

就比如说有

For example, there are

我觉得有两点是特别明显的

I think there are two points that are particularly obvious.

就很多人在读书的时候

Many people are reading books.

至少我会这样

At least I will be like this.

我认为很多人也会

I believe many people will too.

因为我听很多人说过

Because I've heard many people say it.

就是他们在读一本书的时候

It's when they are reading a book.

他们会说

They will say.

那我读到了第185页

Then I read to page 185.

然后我突然想起来什么东西

Then I suddenly remembered something.

回去173页

Go back to page 173.

或者是回去的某一个某一页

Or it could be a certain page from the return.

找一下我刚刚读到的那个东西

Look for that thing I just read.

这个来回翻译的时候

When translating back and forth like this.

这个体验在在电子书上面

This experience is on the e-book.

我觉得是很难被处理好的一件事

I think it is a matter that is difficult to handle well.

当然各个厂商都在做各种各样的努力

Of course, various manufacturers are making all sorts of efforts.

来处理这件事情

Come to deal with this matter.

但是这个体验就是非常非常的不一样

But this experience is really, really different.

对因为这个有涉及到

This is related to that.

在所有的音乐播放器软件里

Among all the music player software

有一个scrapping的这样的一个概念

There is a concept like scrapping.

就是你要快进和后退的时候

It's when you want to fast forward and rewind.

你直接拉住滑块

You directly pull the slider.

滚动条上的滑块

Slider on the scrollbar

然后你如果你的手指

Then if your finger

和那个滑块的距离越远

The farther away from that slider.

你去快进和后退的速度就越慢

The faster you go, the slower you can rewind and fast forward.

我觉得这个功能不是所有人都知道的

I think not everyone knows about this feature.

因为当我最初学到这个功能的时候

Because when I first learned about this feature

我是很震惊有这个功能的

I am very surprised that there is this feature.

哦是吗

Oh really?

对

Correct.

这个功能很早就有

This feature has existed for a long time.

iTunes很早就有

iTunes has been around for a long time.

对我觉得可以跟大家稍微仔细的说一下

I think I can explain it to everyone in a bit more detail.

你说

You say.

就是如果你在iOS上

It's just that if you are on iOS.

或是iTunes上播一个音频

Or play an audio on iTunes.

或者是视频的时候

Or when it is a video.

你可能大家一般的做法

You might do it the way everyone else does.

至少我的做法

At least my approach.

原先是直接拿手指点那个进度点

Originally, you would directly use your finger to point at that progress point.

就是那个圆的按钮

It’s that round button.

然后你就会直接拖动

Then you will drag it directly.

有的时候你想说啊

Sometimes you want to say, ah.

我要拖大概10秒20秒怎么做呢

I want to drag for about 10 to 20 seconds, how should I do it?

实际上这个地方是有一个设计的

In fact, this place has a design.

这个设计就是

This design is

当你把手指按在屏幕上面

When you press your finger on the screen.

当你的手指离这个滚动条的距离越长的时候

The longer your finger is from the scrollbar.

屏幕上会给你个提示说

The screen will give you a prompt saying

你离到一定程度的时候

When you reach a certain point

你现在是在用两倍的速度在拉

You are currently pulling at double speed.

或者是二分之一的速度在拉

Or it's being pulled at half the speed.

你更远的时候

When you are farther away.

可能是四分之一的速度在拉

It might be pulling at a quarter of the speed.

或者是四倍的速度在拉

Or it could be pulled at four times the speed.

就是看你怎么理解

It all depends on how you understand it.

没有四倍了

There is no quadruple anymore.

只有二分之一和四分之一

Only one-half and one-fourth.

二分之一和四分之一

One half and one quarter.

对

Correct.

其实我觉得这个功能非常好用

Actually, I think this feature is very useful.

这个功能的问题在于

The problem with this feature is that

它其实它的affordance非常的低

Its affordance is actually very low.

对

Yes.

就是说它在视觉上

That is to say, it is visually.

它没有什么东西暗示你可以这么做

It doesn't suggest anywhere that you can do that.

但是一般来说

However, generally speaking.

可能很多用户发现这个

Many users may have discovered this.

就是偶尔它的手指

It's just that occasionally its fingers.

没有特别准确的放在那个圆点上

Not placed exactly on that dot.

稍微离远了一点

A bit further away.

然后这个时候在屏幕上出现了一个

Then at that moment, a appeared on the screen.

HUD

Heads Up Display

这样的一个显示吧

Such a display.

告诉你它出现了一个二分之一

Tell you that it has appeared a half.

然后这时候你可能有些人就学会了

Then at this point, some of you may have learned.

但是更多的人确实就是

But there are indeed more people who...

所以我很感谢你刚才特地把这个事情再说一遍

So I really appreciate you taking the time to mention this again just now.

的确如你所说

Indeed, as you said.

很多人可能不知道这个功能

Many people may not know about this feature.

但我为什么要提它

But why should I mention it?

就是你刚才提到电子书前后快速翻页不易

It's just that you mentioned the difficulty of quickly flipping through e-books.

这件事情

This matter.

现在大部分人的解决方法就是说

Most people’s solution now is to say.

我下面加一个小小的窗口做预览

I will add a small window below for a preview.

对没错

Yes, that's right.

但是很多时候这个预览窗口是完全不够大的

But many times this preview window is completely not large enough.

就是你最多能看到这个文字在页面上的结构

You can see the structure of this text on the page at most.

但如果比如说你是看小说的话

But if, for example, you are reading a novel...

很可能你翻个十页

It's very likely that you'll flip through ten pages.

它的结构都是一样的

Its structure is all the same.

就是一段段的字

It's just a series of characters.

对这就是我要说的第二点

Yes, this is the second point I want to make.

就相当于是我要说的第二点

That's equivalent to the second point I want to make.

就是你在读电子书的时候

It's when you are reading an e-book.

你缺少一个Visual Check Point

You are missing a Visual Check Point.

就是很多人是靠视觉

Many people rely on vision.

靠排版来记一本书的内容的

Relying on layout to remember the content of a book.

在电子书上因为你屏幕小

Because you have a small screen on the e-book.

或者是你屏幕空间有限

Perhaps your screen space is limited.

然后文字又多

Then there are more words.

你每页其实上是长的是一个样子的

Each page actually looks the same.

所以你指的这个Visual Check Point

So the Visual Check Point you mentioned.

是比如说我一本纸书打完

For example, I finish reading a physical book.

打开左右两边

Open both sides.

你甚至会记得说某一个词是在左边

You might even remember that a certain word is on the left.

对

Correct.

你是指的像这样的一些事情

Are you referring to things like this?

这个我理解

I understand this.

这有点像以前大家背英文单词的时候

This is a bit like when everyone used to memorize English vocabulary.

有时候是根据那个字母的

Sometimes it depends on that letter.

比如说字母D是上面多出一条

For example, the letter D has an extra line on top.

然后字母P是下面多出一条

Then the letter P has an extra line at the bottom.

会根据这种视觉形象来记

Will remember based on this visual image.

对吧你是指的这种事情是吧

Right, you mean this kind of thing, right?

对视觉上我觉得是帮助记忆是很有用

I think visually it is very helpful for memory.

至少我是一个非常视觉的人

At least I am a very visual person.

所以我觉得这一点上面

So I think on this point.

Kindle是非常

Kindle is very

就是无论是Kindle还是各种电子书

Whether it's Kindle or various e-books.

都是没有办法去非常好的解决这个问题的

There is no good way to solve this problem.

对尤其是像我刚刚说的那个情况

Yes, especially in the situation I just mentioned.

就是比如说我记得这个人

For example, I remember this person.

比如说我在读一本小说

For example, I am reading a novel.

我记得这个角色在这一张的

I remember this character in this picture.

大概左边这一页的这个位置出现了

It probably appeared in this position on the left page.

那我回去找

Then I'll go back to find it.

然后我找的时候

Then when I looked for it

我在电子书上面可能就会找不到

I might not be able to find it on the e-book.

因为每一页长的都是一样的

Because every page is the same length.

而在纸书书上面的时候

And when it comes to printed books.

你知道它是在左边这一页

Do you know it is on the left side of this page?

所以你可能会比较认真的找左边

So you might be looking more seriously to the left.

或中间这一段

Or this middle section.

对有道理

Yes, it makes sense.

这个说法我是第一次听到

This is the first time I have heard this statement.

但我觉得我同意这个说法

But I feel that I agree with this statement.

很有意思

Very interesting.

说到刚刚那个进度条的问题

Speaking of the issue with the progress bar just now.

其实这里有个非常有趣的一个事情

Actually, there is something very interesting here.

就是为了解决这个来回翻页这个事情

It's just to solve the issue of flipping pages back and forth.

有的时候你可能

Sometimes you may

尤其是像你在做那种资料书的时候

Especially when you are working on that kind of reference book.

你可能会说

You might say.

这个地方有一个东西

There is something in this place.

我可能要跳到第五章去看一下

I might jump to chapter five to take a look.

它的definition

Its definition.

然后我再回来这个地方看

Then I will come back to this place to take a look.

对吧

Right?

或者它有一个内部的一个link

Or it has an internal link.

就是带你去到一个别的地方

It’s to take you to another place.

更远的一个地方

A farther place.

我们知道现在很多电子书

We know that there are many e-books now.

它都是有同步这个功能的

It has the synchronization function.

它同步会把你同步到你读到的最远的这个部分

It will synchronize you to the farthest part you have read.

有的时候当你点了第五章的这个内容

Sometimes when you select this content from chapter five.

link带你到最远的地方的时候

When the link takes you to the farthest place.

你的上次读的这个页面

The last page you read.

或者是你读的这个最远的这个记录

Or it could be the farthest record you have read.

相当于就被打乱了

It's equivalent to being disrupted.

这确实是个非常难解决的问题

This is indeed a very difficult problem to solve.

这是一个非常难解决的问题

This is a very difficult problem to solve.

我觉得很多用户也会抱怨这件事情

I think many users will complain about this matter as well.

对

Correct.

而且这一点我必须说

And this is something I must say.

这时候用户的抱怨

User complaints at this time.

在我看来

In my opinion

怎么说

How to say

开发者是有点冤枉的

The developers are a bit wronged.

因为就是说用户一方面

Because it means that users, on the one hand,

他又希望我要在各个不同的设备上

He also hopes that I will be on various different devices.

阅读进度保持一致

Keep the reading progress consistent.

但问题是阅读进度是一个

But the problem is that reading progress is one.

因为英文说就是moving target

Because in English it is called a moving target.

对吧

Right?

尤其像你刚才讲的

Especially like what you just mentioned.

像那种教科书

Like that kind of textbook.

我经常需要来回翻的时候

I often need to flip back and forth.

很多时候读者自己

Many times the readers themselves

他并没有一个明确的说

He didn't make a clear statement.

我的阅读进度到哪了

What is my reading progress?

但是就是他

But it is him.

当他每一次打开这本书的时候

Every time he opens this book.

他希望看到的那种

The kind he hopes to see.

最理想的停留在那个位置

The most ideal stay is at that position.

那个位置可能每次是不一样的

That location might be different each time.

所以这种情况下

So in this case.

作为开发者那边

As for the developers' side

其实没有一个百分百合理的

In fact, there isn't a completely reasonable one.

一种方式来设计这个功能

A way to design this function.

对

Right.

你只能是尽量的去猜

You can only try to guess.

说他这个

Say he this.

可能通过停留的时间

Possibly through the duration of stay.

或者是通过他来到这个点的次数

Or it could be the number of times he has reached this point.

来判断说这个点

Come to judge this point.

到底是不是应该被记下来

Should it really be recorded?

或者像Kindle的做法

Or like the approach of Kindle.

就是在

It is at.

进度条上面

Above the progress bar.

加一个小的marker

Add a small marker.

告诉你说

Tell you say.

你刚刚在这个地方停留过

You just stayed in this place.

然后做了一些暗示

Then made some implications.

但是从用户

But from the user's perspective

那个marker其实是不够明确

That marker is actually not clear enough.

我第一次看到他的时候

The first time I saw him.

这也是近两年出现的功能

This is a feature that has emerged in the past two years.

我第一次看到他的时候

The first time I saw him.

因为他其实就是那条

Because he is actually that one.

进度条上有一个小圆点

There is a small dot on the progress bar.

然后你的进度条上

Then on your progress bar

可能同时会有三四个

It is possible to have three or four at the same time.

这样的小圆点

Such small dots.

其实我不太清楚

Actually, I'm not very sure.

它们之间区别在哪

What is the difference between them?

对

Yes.

这个其实真的是一个

This is actually really a.

非常难懂的事情

Very difficult to understand things.

但是从用户的角度来说

But from the user's perspective.

他有这个期待也是一个

He also has this expectation.

很正常的事情

A very normal thing.

所以这就是像你说的

So this is what you meant.

必须得换个角度来看

We must change our perspective.

但是也不一定有用户

But there may not necessarily be users.

可以就是真的能够

It really is able to.

从开发者的角度来理解

Understand from the developer's perspective.

这个问题

This question.

想到这个技术难度是有多大

I can only imagine how great the technical difficulty is.

对

Correct.

刚才你说的这几个问题

The few questions you mentioned just now.

其实都是属于几乎

Actually, they all belong to almost.

很多是几乎无解的

Many are almost unsolvable.

比如说有些书

For example, there are some books.

比如特别

For example, especially.

70年代出版的书

Books published in the 1970s

可能一时半会儿

It may take some time.

不会有Kindle版

There will be no Kindle version.

这个问题

This question

还有快速翻页的问题

There is also the issue of quick page turning.

快速翻页问题

Quick page turning issue

刚才我说了一半

I just spoke halfway.

就是说为什么不能把下面

That is to say, why can't we put the following...

预览的窗口放大一点

Enlarge the preview window a bit.

比如说

For example,

让它跟整个页面

Let it be with the whole page.

几乎至少有整个屏幕的

Almost at least the entire screen.

80%那么大

80% that big.

这样至少我在翻的时候

This way, at least when I'm translating.

然后我再加上

Then I will add it.

刚才那种慢速

The slow pace from just now.

二分之一或四分之一

One half or one quarter

速度scrapping的那样的设计

Design like speed scrapping.

可以让我能够看清

Can allow me to see clearly.

每一页里有哪些东西

What is there on each page?

我不知道为什么没有

I don't know why there isn't any.

Kindle在e-ink上面

Kindle is on e-ink.

已经有这样的做法了

Such practices already exist.

对

Yes.

所以其实app

So actually, the app

还是有一点二等功名的感觉

It still feels a bit like a second-class honor.

app有的时候

Sometimes the app

也会有一些更加新鲜的feature

There will also be some newer features.

但是

But

但是怎么说呢

But how should I put it?

就是我自己的理解

It's just my own understanding.

就是Kindle电子书阅读器的用户

It is the user of the Kindle e-book reader.

实际上是真正的

In fact, it is the real thing.

那种重度用户

That kind of heavy user.

对他们会花更多更多的时间

They will spend more and more time on them.

在这个device上面

On this device.

而手机或者是说

And the mobile phone or let's say

甚至于是iPad

Even the iPad.

它都是一个短期阅读的

It's all about short-term reading.

一个东西

Something.

一个产业平台

An industrial platform

各种干扰太多了

There are too many distractions.

可能看两下就不看了

Maybe I'll just take a look a couple of times and then stop watching.

我也没必要给你做那么用心

I don't need to put so much effort into doing things for you either.

是吧

Is that so?

不能这么说

You can't say that.

只是就是说有优先值的区别

It's just that there is a difference in priority values.

比如说

For example.

比如说分享功能

For example, the sharing feature.

可能就会先来到

It may come first.

先来到iOS或是Android平台

First arrive at the iOS or Android platform.

然后它晚一点会到e-ink

Then it will arrive at e-ink a little later.

因为e-ink毕竟它是一个与世隔绝的一个平台嘛

Because e-ink is, after all, a platform that is isolated from the world.

但是像有一些特别的用户体验

But there are some special user experiences.

就可能会在e-ink上先出现

It may first appear on e-ink.

然后如果好的话

Then if it's good.

再移植到

Transplant again to

移植到各种其他的移动平台上面去

Ported to various other mobile platforms.

好吧

Alright.

我觉得跟你录完这期

I think after we finish recording this episode with you.

我觉得还是有必要买一个硬件Kindle了

I think it's still necessary to buy a hardware Kindle.

我已经不在那里上班了

I no longer work there.

所以间接做了一个广告

So it indirectly made an advertisement.

对

Correct.

我觉得因为我自己是一个在Kindle里花很多时间的人

I think it's because I spend a lot of time on Kindle myself.

我的iPad

My iPad.

iPad上我最常用的就是Kindle App

The app I use the most on my iPad is the Kindle App.

所以如果你说有一些

So if you say there are some...

特别像刚才像Wordwise

Especially like just now, like Wordwise.

Wordwise可能对我来说还相对次要吧

Wordwise might be relatively less important to me.

但是有一些别的功能

But there are some other functions.

我比较想尽快的能够用到它

I would like to use it as soon as possible.

嗯

Hmm.

对

Yes.

所以我觉得这个也很重要

So I think this is also very important.

可能符合我现在对电子书业的一种看法

It may align with my current view on the e-book industry.

我们之前也看到了有很多试图创新的电子书业者

We have previously seen many e-book providers attempting to innovate.

像Oyster

Like Oyster

Oyster有点像是电子书业者的Netflix

Oyster is somewhat like the Netflix of the e-book industry.

对吧

Right?

他想用这个订阅的方式

He wants to use this subscription method.

一个月是10美元吧

A month is 10 dollars, right?

不会差太远

It won't be too far off.

大概这个价格

About this price.

你可以随便看他书库里所有的书

You can look at all the books in his library as you like.

这个做法

This approach.

这个想法肯定也是很多人很多年前就有

This idea has certainly been had by many people many years ago.

Oyster把他在前几年做出来的

Oyster made what he produced a few years ago.

但是他去年还是前年就做不下去

But he couldn't continue last year or the year before.

就倒闭了

It just went bankrupt.

然后还有一些其他的一些

Then there are some other things.

像那个像Inkling这家公司

Like that company called Inkling.

是由以前苹果的一个管理层员工出来做的创业项目

It is a startup project launched by a former employee of Apple's management team.

他们本来想做的是改革这个教科书市场

What they originally wanted to do was reform the textbook market.

因为我们都知道美国教科书非常贵嘛

Because we all know that American textbooks are very expensive.

那么他们就做电子教科书

Then they created electronic textbooks.

也是可以分章节卖的

It can also be sold by chapters.

可以一张张这样买

You can buy them one by one like this.

然后包括他在这个表现形式上也做了很多创新

Then, he also made many innovations in this form of expression.

这家公司现在也

This company is now also

他没有倒闭

He did not go bankrupt.

但是他已经不再做面向终端消费者的电子教科书了

However, he no longer produces electronic textbooks aimed at end consumers.

他是去做一个

He is going to do one.

等于变成一个用国内的说法

It is equivalent to becoming a term used domestically.

变成一个2B的公司

Become a B2B company.

他是面向这个公司

He is oriented towards this company.

面向企业用户

Aimed at enterprise users.

变成这样的一个一家创业公司

Become a startup like this.

所以我经常跟朋友开玩笑

So I often joke with my friends.

就是说讲究用户体验

That means paying attention to user experience.

讲究阅读体验的电子书业者

E-book providers that emphasize reading experience.

至少是创业公司吧

At least it's a startup company.

全都死掉了

They all died.

那么现在剩下的就是大玩家

So now what's left are the major players.

对吧

Right?

我觉得像罗一文刚才提到几点

I think there are a few points that Luo Yiwen mentioned just now.

他之所以是

The reason why he is

不是说之所以啊

It's not that...

他提到几点都是属于

He mentioned that the points all belong to...

真正在乎看电子书的人

People who truly care about reading e-books.

会非常希望改善的地方

Areas that I would really like to improve.

而我们都觉得他是一个短期内

And we all think he is one in the short term.

或者说长期内都很难改善的一个东西

Or it could be something that is difficult to improve in the long term.

所以我觉得其实现在电子书的格局

So I think the current landscape of e-books is actually...

基本是稳定下来了

It has basically stabilized.

这个不只是指的

This does not just refer to.

就是说有

That is to say, there is.

已经有大玩家在里面卡住了位

There are already big players stuck in there.

小的创业者其实不太容易进来

It's not easy for small entrepreneurs to get in.

另一方面也意味着

On the other hand, it also means.

哪怕是大的玩家

Even if it's a big player.

他有很多资源

He has a lot of resources.

很丰厚的资源的公司

A company with very abundant resources.

在电子书软件的设计上

In the design of eBook software

阅读体验的改进上

Improvements in reading experience.

他的步伐会比较的慢

His pace will be relatively slow.

而且很多时候他的改进是非常有限的

Moreover, many times his improvements are very limited.

然后另一方面

On the other hand

像比如像我这样的重度读者

For example, heavy readers like me.

重度用户的话

Words of heavy users.

我其实可抱怨

I can actually complain.

我不会再抱怨太多东西了

I won't complain about too many things anymore.

因为我知道

Because I know.

我真正想抱怨那些东西

I really want to complain about those things.

包括像罗一文你刚才抱怨的东西

Including things like what Luo Yiwen just complained about.

他没有办法改进

He has no way to improve.

而另一方面

On the other hand

我们在乎的其他的一些东西

Other things we care about.

像我刚才说的新书的品种

Like the types of new books I just mentioned.

对吧

Right?

就是书够不够多

Is there enough books?

这件事情上

On this matter.

是一直有在改进的

It has been continuously improving.

所以像对我

So like to me.

我是一个经常可能到处跑的人来说

I am someone who often runs around everywhere.

很多时候

Many times

新书能够有电子书买到

New books are available as e-books for purchase.

我已经谢天谢地了

I have already thanked heaven and earth.

对吧

Right?

现在是这样一种情况

The situation is now like this.

没错

That's right.

我觉得电子书的形式

I think the form of e-books.

在过去的几年

In the past few years.

也发生了很大的改变吧

There have also been significant changes, right?

像你刚刚说的subscription model的Oyster

Oyster's subscription model, as you just mentioned.

可能最近已经不在了

Maybe they are no longer here recently.

然后但是像Kindle Unlimited之类的产品

Then, products like Kindle Unlimited.

又出来

Out again.

Scripty也是有一个subscription model的

Scripty also has a subscription model.

你提到的Inkling

The Inkling you mentioned.

我们之前

We before

也看到过

I have also seen it.

我觉得它的模式是一个

I think its mode is a

用网页的展示方式

Using the display method of a webpage.

把书的内容给展示出来

Display the content of the book.

它的交互做的会比较好一点

Its interaction is a bit better.