好國好民，特殊認同下的國與民（二）：對談與分享

台灣新媒體

臺灣/台灣新媒體網路廣播

我請教因為我對你第一遍在台大發表的時候

I would like to ask because I was curious when you first presented at National Taiwan University.

我就一直在懷疑說

I have一直 been wondering.

你把這個名字叫做好國好民

You named this "Good Country, Good People."

這到底是在挑發什麼事情

What is this trying to provoke?

因為這是一個很諷刺的一個

Because this is very ironic.

就是說你從你的片子裡面的這些人物

That means the characters from your film.

你把它稱為好我還可以接受

You can call it good, and I can still accept it.

但是他這些人活在的

But these people he lives with.

你認為的這個國家體制

What you think about this country's system

你也把它稱為好

You also call it good.

這會讓我錯亂

This will confuse me.

就是說

That is to say.

而且您今天也提到

And you also mentioned today...

有一些概念就是說

There are some concepts that say

我們在這個做一個所謂的東方漢字的國

We are in a so-called country of Eastern Chinese characters.

跟西方的republic

Compared to the Western Republic.

the republic of China

The Republic of China

它的這個國

Its country.

跟東方的中央之國的國

The Central Kingdom of the East.

體制上其實是不一樣的

The system is actually different.

那這些人

So these people

台灣人在這個教育的過程裡面

Taiwanese people in this education process.

並沒有把這個定義弄得很清楚的情況下

In a situation where this definition has not been made very clear.

很多的論述都淪為很可怕的

Many discussions have degenerated into something very frightening.

就好像就是說

It's like saying.

陳導演講到就是說

Director Chen mentioned that...

他在某一個希望也是走體制內改革

He also hopes to pursue reforms within the system.

而沒有所謂的武力的抗衡

And there is no so-called military counterbalance.

這一件事情對台灣人

This matter is important to the people of Taiwan.

這一些你所記錄到的這些

These things you have recorded.

人

Person

雖然你把它稱為名

Although you call it a name

我很不喜歡稱為名

I really dislike being called famous.

我不認為他們是名

I don't think they are famous.

這些人

These people

對不對

Is that right?

他們是不是活在一個

Are they living in a...

沒有能力去從事驅逐達魯的這一件歷史

There is no ability to engage in the historical act of expelling the Dalu.

重大事件的能力之人

The person capable of重大事件.

那這樣子

Then like this.

你所描述的

What you described.

這些生活在台灣

These live in Taiwan.

活在台灣

Living in Taiwan

出生在台灣的這些人

These people born in Taiwan.

他以後建立

He established it later.

你所稱之為好國的這個好

The "good" in what you refer to as a good country.

會是真的嗎

Could it really be true?

我對

I agree.

就是說從你的紀錄片

That is to say, from your documentary.

跟你的這個定義裡面

Within your definition.

我看到的這些人

The people I see.

讓我非常質疑

Makes me very skeptical.

好

Good

那我們因為這個題目有兩個

Then we have two topics because of this.

一個是問陳立貴太太

One is to ask Mrs. Chen Liguo.

導演

Director

然後另外是問施育雄

Then I will ask Shi Yuxiong.

所以我們能不能先回答

So can we answer first?

好不好

How's that?

我們先回答

We will answer first.

我實在不曉得你在什麼地方

I really don't know where you are.

聽到我說

Heard me say

我是贊成體制內改革

I support reforms within the system.

因為你比較贊成

Because you are more supportive.

我

投票投贏

Vote to win.

喔喔喔

Oh oh oh

所以我是贊成

So I am in favor.

喔喔喔

Oh oh oh

OK OK

其實第一場這個先生

Actually, this gentleman in the first match.

就讓我印象深刻了

It really impressed me.

我們在那個

We are at that.

首映會的時候

At the premiere.

他就已經提出來這樣一個問題了

He has already raised such a question.

他就問我說

He asked me.

為什麼我會取好國好民

Why did I choose a good country and good people?

那其實我就很簡單

Actually, it's very simple for me.

因為鄭楠榮說

Because Zheng Nanrong said

我們雖然是一個

Although we are a...

我們雖然是小國小民

Although we are a small country and small people.

但是我們是好國好民

But we are good country and good people.

就是從鄭楠榮先生這句話來

It comes from Mr. Zheng Nanrong's words.

那我們認為台灣是一個國家

Then we consider Taiwan to be a country.

是一個小而美的國家

It is a small but beautiful country.

然後那個

Then that one.

我的片中的這些年輕人

The young people in my film.

他們也非常的努力

They are also very hardworking.

在把他們的

In putting them...

就是說

That is to say.

在推動台灣的

In promoting Taiwan's

各種的進步的這個運動

The movement for various kinds of progress.

讓台灣成為一個更理想

Make Taiwan a better ideal.

更美好的國家

A better country.

那

That

所以我稱他們為

So I call them.

稱這個

Call this

我們是好國

We are a good country.

然後這些

Then these

我們這個

We this

在這個國家裡面的

Inside this country.

這個人民是好民

This people are good people.

那我覺得

Then I think...

這個民其實

This people, in fact,

沒有什麼

There's nothing.

什麼

What

奴隸的意思

The meaning of a slave.

沒有這就是公民的民嘛

This is not what it means to be a citizen.

我們就是這個國家的公民

We are the citizens of this country.

這個國家的人民嘛

The people of this country, well...

那我不知道你的漢學的

Then I don't know your knowledge of sinology.

為什麼去受那個中國的

Why go to suffer that in China?

這個讀書這麼樣的深喔

This reading is so deep!

我們不是要

We do not want to.

對嗎

Is that correct?

為什麼要

Why do (you) want to?

一定要一定說

You must definitely say it.

那個古老的這個解釋才是

The explanation of that ancient one is what it is.

才是正確的

Only this is correct.

這樣子

Like this.

嘿

Hey

那

That

你說

You said.

這些民是不是能夠起來驅逐達魯喔

Can these people rise up to expel the Dalure?

我不知道這個達魯指的是什麼啦

I don't know what this "dalu" refers to.

對

Yes.

喔

所以換你來講

So it's your turn to speak.

這個達魯是滿精彩的

This Dalru is quite wonderful.

所以換你來講

So it's your turn to speak.

喔

那這個請這個

Then please take this.

李世宇來回答

Li Shiyu is here to answer.

不錯

Not bad.

你找對人了

You found the right person.

沒有啊

No, not at all.

像這樣的論辯

Arguments like this.

在我們這個社會

In our society.

就是經常被指為那個

It is often referred to as that.

就沒概念的一個討論

A discussion without any concept.

那

That

我也

Me too.

對這種現象覺得很無趣啦

I find this phenomenon very boring.

但是我想講我的看法

But I want to talk about my opinion.

我認為

I think

台灣如果要變成一個

If Taiwan wants to become a

主權完整

Sovereign integrity

說到承認的國家

Speaking of recognized countries.

就是我們如果要真的

It's just that if we really want to...

完成整個stay building的過程

Complete the entire process of staying in the building.

那麼

Then

這個社會裡面如果有隱隱

If there are hidden things in this society.

形成一種內戰的局勢的話

If a situation of civil war forms.

那麼建國是不太可能成功的

Then it is unlikely that the establishment of the nation will be successful.

坦白講

To be honest

在一個社會裡面

In a society.

如果

對這個政治系統有

There is a political system.

存在一種敵我矛盾

There exists a contradiction between us and the enemy.

那麼這雙方呢

So what about both sides?

有一方

There is a side.

任何一方都超過百分之三十的話

If either party exceeds thirty percent

我想誰都沒有辦法

I think no one can do anything about it.

控制全局

Control the overall situation.

你要統一

You need to unify.

我一定跟你拚嘛

I will definitely compete with you.

我們一些朋友

Some of our friends.

游擊隊都組好了

The guerrilla team is all set up.

都有賺我一份

I want a share of the profits too.

我現在體力比較差

I am currently in poorer physical condition.

就絕對很抱歉

I am absolutely sorry.

可能到時候人生死了

Life may have died by then.

以前我很認真

I used to be very serious.

以前我練馬拉松啊什麼

I used to train for marathons and such.

就準備打前鋒的

Just getting ready to play the forward.

那另外呢

What about the other?

你說你要獨立

You said you want to be independent.

也有人不會放過你的

Some people won't let you off either.

所以呢

So, what?

你要決定這個國家的前途

You must decide the future of this country.

我想在

I want to be at

不管是你要用什麼手段

No matter what means you want to use.

你必須要得到在統計上

You must achieve it statistically.

幾乎是絕大多數的同意

Almost the overwhelming majority of agreement.

而且其他的反抗呢

And what about the other forms of resistance?

其他的反對

Other objections

必須要降到一種體制內的反對

It must be reduced to a form of opposition within the system.

就是說降到內部矛盾的程度

That is to say, reducing it to the level of internal contradictions.

如果它停留在結構的矛盾

If it remains in the contradictions of the structure.

停留在敵我矛盾

Staying in the conflict between enemies and allies.

那麼建國是很困難的

Then it is very difficult to establish a country.

它勢必就是

It is bound to be.

不要說外武啦

Don't talk about external martial arts.

就一定是內戰嘛

It must be a civil war.

所以我會一直注意說

So I will always pay attention to what I say.

我們的共識

Our consensus.

漸漸的形成到一種

Gradually forming into a kind of.

所謂共同體的意識

The so-called consciousness of the community.

那它已經超過70%

Then it has already exceeded 70%.

這是我們目前所擁有的

This is what we currently have.

那麼這些意識呢

So what about these consciousnesses?

要表現出

to show

在很多地方其實已經漸漸的凝聚起來

In many places, it has gradually begun to come together.

譬如說我們如果看到

For example, if we see

王建民在打球

Wang Jianmin is playing basketball.

那麼坦白講

To be frank,

部分男女都給他鼓掌

Some men and women gave him a round of applause.

那麼你看到

So you see.

所謂中華隊

The so-called Chinese team.

不管他用的名字是中華台北

No matter what name he uses, it is Chinese Taipei.

或是什麼隊

Or what team.

然後在什麼地方跟中國隊比賽

Then where will we compete against the Chinese team?

部分男女都會為台灣隊加油

Some men and women will cheer for the Taiwan team.

這是我共識

This is my consensus.

當然也一樣

Of course, it's the same.

921發生地震

The earthquake occurred on September 21.

88發生水災

88 flood occurred.

你就可以看到

You can see.

在我們這個共同體的界線之內

Within the boundaries of our community.

所以我們的巡禮範圍之內

So it is within the scope of our tour.

所有的人都往那邊跑

Everyone is running over there.

所有的人力物力都往那邊跑

All the manpower and resources are being directed that way.

因為有一種共同體的感覺

Because there is a sense of community.

一種命運共同體的感覺

A sense of a community of shared destiny.

這些都是台灣共識

These are all the consensus of Taiwan.

我們唯一的

Our only one.

我認為

I believe.

建立國家的可能性

The possibility of establishing a nation.

必須要從consolidate

Must start from consolidate.

擴大國家的可能性

Expand the possibilities of the country.

擴大以及鞏固

Expand and consolidate.

這個共識開始做起

This consensus has started to take shape.

而不是去區分你和我

Instead of differentiating between you and me.

你要建國

You want to establish a country.

只能用加法

Only addition can be used.

不能用減法

Cannot use subtraction.

不能說

Can't say.

你不是

You are not.

那你沒有辦法建國

Then you have no way to establish a country.

你只有打仗

You only know how to fight.

就是內戰

It's a civil war.

你一定要說

You must say it.

你也是

You too.

你才有可能

Only you have the possibility.

才有可能

Only then is it possible.

敵我矛盾降解

De-escalation of contradictions between adversaries.

變成內部矛盾

Become an internal contradiction.

內部矛盾

Internal contradictions

可以用何必有辦法解決

There is always a way to solve it.

可以用投票方式解決

It can be resolved by voting.

敵我矛盾沒有辦法

There is no way to resolve the contradictions between us and them.

敵我矛盾就是你死我活

The contradiction between us is a matter of life and death.

民族主義就是你死我活

Nationalism is a life-and-death struggle.

這是我對國家的

This is my contribution to the country.

Stay building

建國的一種基本的想法

A fundamental idea of nation-building.

那我覺得

Then I think

其實

Actually

我先講到這裡好了

I'll stop here for now.

好

Good.

然後我們請

Then we invite.

新葉來

New leaves come.

不好意思

Sorry.

我插個嘴

Let me interrupt.

就是

That is it.

問到驅逐達魯這個問題

Regarding the question of expelling Dalu.

這個

This

因為我們這一代的人

Because people of our generation

本來受國民黨教育

Originally educated by the Kuomintang.

我們後來都是受周星馳電影的教育

We were later educated by Stephen Chow's movies.

我不知道在座有多少人

I don't know how many people are present.

都看過周星馳電影

Everyone has seen Stephen Chow's movies.

中國同學有看到周星馳的電影嗎

Have the Chinese students seen Stephen Chow's movies?

我們看那個

Let's take a look at that.

周星馳的《鹿鼎記》

Stephen Chow's "The Deer and the Cauldron"

那個

That one.

他的師父陳敬南

His master Chen Jingnan.

就把他叫到內室裡面來

Just call him into the inner room.

因為他

Because of him.

他們不是都天地會都喊反清復明嗎

Aren't they all shouting for the Restoration of the Ming Dynasty and the overthrow of the Qing Dynasty?

那就是驅逐達魯的意思嘛

That means to expel Daru.

因為清相對於明

Because the Qing is relatively towards the Ming.

就是漢族跟滿族不同的

It is just that the Han ethnic group is different from the Manchu ethnic group.

不同的族群嘛

Different ethnic groups.

所以他們驅逐達魯

So they expelled Daru.

他就把韋小寶叫到內室來

He called Wei Xiaobao into the inner room.

他說

He said.

外面那些人沒讀什麼書

The people outside haven't read much.

沒辦法跟他們說太難

It's too difficult to explain to them.

其實我們為什麼要反清

Actually, why do we need to resist the Qing?

你是聰明人

You are a smart person.

我直接跟你講

I'll tell you directly.

我們就是要從滿清手上

We want to take it from the Qing Dynasty.

搶回我們的銀兩跟女人啊

Take back our silver and women!

韋小寶就聽懂了

Wei Xiaobao understood.

他說

He said.

所以嘛

So that’s it.

我們是要搶回我們的銀兩跟女人

We want to take back our silver and women.

至於反不反清

As for whether to oppose the Qing dynasty or not.

那根本就是脫褲子放屁

That's totally like "taking off your pants to fart."

那陸鼎記就是這樣講的嘛

That's what the Lu Ding Ji is talking about.

其實滿有道理的

It's actually quite reasonable.

為什麼

Why?

驅逐達魯是誰講的

Who said "Expel Dalu"?

這在孫文創立同盟會的時候講的嘛

This was said when Sun Yat-sen founded the Tongmenghui.

我們歷史課本都有照片有沒有

Our history textbooks all have photos, right?

那個標語然後他還這樣子

That slogan, and then he did it like this.

他為什麼要講這些

Why does he want to say these things?

就跟陳敬南要去跟那些人

Just like Chen Jingnan wants to go with those people.

講反清復明是一樣的意思嘛

Talking about restoring the Ming Dynasty from the Qing Dynasty means the same thing, right?

因為所謂的紅花崗七十二烈士

Because of the so-called 72 martyrs of Honghuagang.

就是地痞流氓烏合之眾啊

It's just a group of local bullies and ruffians.

沒讀過什麼書

Haven't read much books.

不能講太難

It can't be too difficult.

那要讓他們卯起來拼命

Then we need to get them to work hard and give it their all.

只好怎麼樣

What else can be done?

只好叫他們就是

We can only call them that.

分化敵我

Divide and conquer.

說對方是達魯嘛

Saying that the other person is a Daluma.

尤其把對方貶得越低越好

Especially to belittle the other party as much as possible.

所以日本一定要叫我口

So Japan must call me "Kou".

對

Yes.

那這個就會

Then this will do.

讓我想到就是說

What comes to mind is to say.

回應一下

Respond a bit.

剛才也是世域大哥講的

Just now, it was also Brother Shiyu who mentioned it.

就是說

That is to say.

我當然

Of course.

我們都可能跟那個林大哥相差兩個世代

We may be two generations apart from that Brother Lin.

當然流血那些事情

Of course, those things about bleeding.

像我家是

Like my home is

我家是絕對不會去談就是

My family will definitely not discuss it.

過去

Past

甚至連日本時代的事情

Even things from the Japanese era.

我阿公阿嬤都受日本教育

My grandparents were both educated in Japan.

但是就是幾乎都不談

But almost no one talks about it.

然後只會叫我說

Then they'll just tell me to say.

盡量不要跟人家去

Try not to follow others as much as possible.

扯政治

Pulling at politics.

對

Correct.

但是我其實就是

But I actually am just...

我為什麼十八歲以前是中國人

Why was I Chinese before I turned eighteen?

他們也讓我當中國人

They also let me be a Chinese person.

對

Yes.

那

That

可是

However

後來就變成說

Later it became a saying.

林大哥講說

Brother Lin said.

很多以前的事情我們不要去挖

Many things from the past we shouldn't dig up.

幹嘛有那麼多傷痕

Why are there so many scars?

可是很有趣的就是

But what's really interesting is

我現在在挖這個東西

I am currently digging this thing.

我的碩士論文寫的就是228

My master's thesis is about the 228 Incident.

對

Yes.

但重點不在於

But the key point is not in...

死多少人

How many people died?

我要追究的也不是死多少人

I don't want to pursue how many people died.

我要追究的是

What I want to pursue is

為什麼會發生228

Why did the 228 Incident happen?

那我認為它有法律上的原因

Then I think it has legal reasons.

因為我是念法律

Because I study law.

所以就從這邊來寫

So I'll write it from here.

那為什麼我會想要知道這些

Then why would I want to know these things?

這樣我家人都沒有說

My family didn't say anything like that.

那我剛剛非常同意就是說

Well, I just very much agree with what was said.

這不是死一個人還是四五萬人的差別

This is not about the difference between one person dying and forty or fifty thousand people dying.

他其實把我們大家都殺死了

He actually killed all of us.

我最難過的就是

The thing that makes me the saddest is

他其實把我們大家都殺死了

He actually killed all of us.

因為他讓台灣人

Because he makes Taiwanese people...

不去提那些事情

Let's not mention those things.

不去告訴我們

Don't go telling us.

我們的子孫

Our descendants

就是我阿公阿嬤也不會來告訴我

It's not like my grandparents will come and tell me.

就是他們曾經看見過什麼事情

It is that they have seen something before.

那不知道真的會比較快樂嗎

Then I wonder if that would really make one happier.

這是我們這個世代

This is our generation.

看完周星馳的電影很快樂之後

After watching Stephen Chow's movie, I feel very happy.

產生的一個感覺就是說

One feeling that arises is that

難道我們不知道那些事情

Don't we know about those things?

我們就會比較快樂嗎

Will we be happier then?

對

Yes.

那我其實很難過的是說

What makes me very sad is that...

在我後來念了大學的時候

When I later attended university

那我最近也還在講

I've also been talking about that recently.

台大都說

Taiwan University said.

台大都說他的校慶是11月15日

Taiwan University says its anniversary is November 15th.

可是那是不對的

But that is not right.

那是那個所謂的光復

That is what is called the restoration.

光復以後那個接收的日子

The day of the reception after the restoration.

那真正的校慶其實是1928年的4月30日

The real school anniversary is actually on April 30, 1928.

是日本時期

It is the Japanese period.

那個台北帝國大學的這個開校式

The opening ceremony of Taipei Imperial University.

可是又很矛盾喔

But it's also very contradictory.

台大又宣稱他現在83年

Taiwan University has proclaimed that he is now 83 years old.

那換言之他的校慶變怎麼樣

In other words, how has his school anniversary changed?

1928 11月15日

November 15, 1928

有誰知道這個日期是什麼時候

Does anyone know what this date is?

可能是當時校長在廁所裡面

The principal might have been in the bathroom at that time.

跌一跤的日子

The day of a fall.

所以其實這個日子沒有任何意義

So actually this day has no meaning at all.

你為什麼要拼湊一個年

Why are you piecing together a year?

再去拼湊一個日期

Go find another date to piece together.

所以我那時候在台大

So I was at National Taiwan University at that time.

我在編那個學生會會訓的時候

I was editing the training for the student council.

那時候寫50年校慶

At that time, I was writing about the 50th anniversary celebration.

那時候還不講1928喔

At that time, they didn't even mention 1928.

那時候就是講1945年11月15日開始

At that time, it started on November 15, 1945.

可是台大的歷史有這麼短嗎

But does National Taiwan University have such a short history?

就開始產生一個疑問

This raises a question.

然後我想要往前去追溯這個事情的時候

Then, when I wanted to go back and trace this matter.

才發現說

Just realized that.

其實包括連學校

Actually, including the school.

都有很多事情不讓我們知道

There are many things that don't let us know.

然後其實我們這一段歷史

Then actually, this part of our history

就是被斷頭了

It was beheaded.

我們好像就是接過來有沒有

It seems like we've taken it over, haven't we?

我們好像從這個在1945年以前

It seems like we came from this before 1945.

就接到中國的歷史去了

Just went to the history of China.

然後這樣子接過來

Then it connects like this.

幾個人就跟他脊椎側彎

A few people just have scoliosis like him.

人家說歪歪

People say it's crooked.

對

Yes.

然後當時我開始去追溯這些事情

Then at that time I started to trace back these matters.

我看了越來越多那個日本時代資料的時候

When I looked at more and more of that Japanese era information.

我突然覺得好難過

I suddenly feel very sad.

因為那時候我阿公已經過世了

Because at that time my grandfather had already passed away.

我沒有辦法再問他任何問題了

I can't ask him any more questions.

就是你怎麼都沒有跟我講過

Why have you never mentioned it to me?

說你小時候學日文

Saying that you learned Japanese when you were young.

你也做過日本人

You have also been a Japanese person.

但是你怎麼可以給我看

But how can you show me?

你為什麼能夠寫信給我

Why are you able to write to me?

而且我看得懂

And I can understand it.

但我阿公不太會講國語

But my grandfather doesn't speak Mandarin very well.

可是他會寫漢文

But he can write Classical Chinese.

那你是怎麼樣

So how are you?

在日本時代受教育的時候

When I was educated during the Japanese era.

是什麼樣學漢文的

What is it like to learn Classical Chinese?

我發現我對我的

I found that I am for my

我最崇拜的阿公

The grandfather I admire the most.

我對他一無所知

I know nothing about him.

然後這件事情讓我覺得非常難過

Then this matter made me feel very sad.

我快樂不起來了

I'm unable to be happy anymore.

所以我覺得我應該要找到答案

So I feel that I should find the answer.

我可能會覺得比較快樂一點

I might feel a bit happier.

當然台灣帶給我很大快樂

Of course, Taiwan brings me a lot of happiness.

像我很喜歡就是

I really like it.

跟我阿嬤唱一些台語老歌

Sing some Taiwanese old songs with my grandmother.

然後阿嬤知道我喜歡

Then grandma knew that I liked it.

她也是還送我一本

She also gave me a book.

台灣歌謠臉譜這樣的書

A book like Taiwanese folk songs and facial masks.

我有時候也會去收集一些

Sometimes I also go to collect some.

老唱片

Old record

一些翻唱日文的唱片

Some cover albums in Japanese.

然後去送給我阿嬤

Then go give it to my grandma.

這對我們家是一件快樂的事情

This is a joyful event for our family.

所以我覺得這也不衝突

So I think this is not contradictory.

就是我多了解一些我的家人

It's just that I understand some of my family better.

我家族的歷史

My family's history.

多了解某家的歷史

Learn more about the history of a certain family.

那會讓我覺得我的生活更豐富

That would make me feel that my life is richer.

我生活在這裡更快樂

I am happier living here.

那我覺得說

Then I think that...

這個部分是不衝突的

This part is not conflicting.

那我剛好像也有想要講一個東西

Then I just happened to want to talk about something too.

但我現在有一點忘記

But I have forgotten a little bit now.

那不耽誤大家時間

That won't take up everyone's time.

沒關係

It's okay.

想到再補充

I will supplement it when I think of it again.

沒關係

It's okay.

隨時可以回來

You can come back at any time.

然後

Then

當然

Of course

不知道在座還有沒有

I don't know if there are still any here.

有些分享

Some sharing.

好來我們請一下

Okay, let's ask for it.

你再介紹一下

Could you introduce it again?

因為錄音

Because of the recording.

那個半山

That half-mountain.

半山

Half Mountain

這麼說

That being said.

我是早期

I am early.

算說早期的解說是這樣

It is said that the early explanation was like this.

算說

To calculate and say

早期去中國

Early to China

台灣人去中國

Taiwanese people go to China.

的留學生

international students

或是去那裡做事情後

Or go there to do something afterwards.

1949年

1949 year

後

after

那個中介生來以後

That agent was born after.

因為他信任那些人去那裡

Because he trusts those people to go there.

所以

像夏冬敏啦

Like Xia Dongmin.

黃國書啦

Huang Guoshu.

有幾個都去那裡

Several of them went there.

他信任那些人

He trusts those people.

我們那時候

At that time, we

說這些人就半山啦

These people are halfway up the mountain.

所以我跟你的有一點不同的解釋

So my interpretation is slightly different from yours.

這樣子

Like this.

跟你講一下

Let me tell you something.

到底剛才對嗎不對嗎

Was what I said just now right or wrong?

現在因為你說半山

Now because you said the mid-mountain.

是早期是有這樣解說啦

There was such an explanation in the early stages.

沒有啦

No, it's nothing.

這種解說也都有啦

This kind of explanation is also available.

那個有時候留在五花果下

That sometimes stays under the fig tree.

那個半山就是你介紹的意思

That half-mountain is what you meant by the introduction.

但是要不然

But if not

好像說一般民間的用法

It seems to say the general usage in the community.

也稍微有一些不一樣

It's also a little different.

好可以comment

Okay, you can comment.

也可以問問題

You can also ask questions.

來這位朋友

Come here, friend.

再報一下自己的

Report your own situation again.

好我是那個

Okay, I am that.

輔大製品服裝研究所

Fu Jen Catholic University Apparel Research Institute

對然後

Yes, then.

我在座應該算是年輕人這樣

I should be considered one of the young people here.

那我覺得就是

Then I think that is...

其實常看到大家

In fact, I often see everyone.

不好意思大家就是

Sorry everyone, it's just that...

我常看到大家討論就是

I often see everyone discussing that...

那種獨立的問題

The problem of independence.

或是這種問題

Or is it this kind of problem?

我都覺得非常的疑惑

I feel very confused.

因為我覺得

Because I feel that...

我對於

I am about to

或我跟朋友裡面

Or among my friends.

我們覺得

We feel

就是我們對於

That is our view on

我們這個國家

Our country

跟我們這個

With us this

我們絕對不是中國

We are definitely not China.

這完全沒有一點問題

This is completely no problem at all.

就是很明顯

It's very obvious.

我們就是這個國家的人嘛

We are the people of this country, right?

我們就是這個土地

We are this land.

就是台灣人

That's just Taiwanese people.

然後那

Then that

可是反正現在就有個問題在於

But the problem now is that...

就是

It is.

為什麼有台灣獨立的這個議題

Why is there the issue of Taiwan independence?

就是會讓我

It just makes me.

就獨立這兩字

Just the word "independence."

讓我覺得非常的疑惑

It makes me feel very puzzled.

因為獨立我們想像的是

Because independence is what we imagine.

你是一個

You are a

被

been

你一個民族

You a nation.

然後被一個政權壓制

Then suppressed by a regime.

被外來

Being invaded.

譬如說

For example

印度從英國手上獨立這樣子

India gained independence from Britain like this.

只要獨立

As long as you are independent.

那我覺得現在

Well, I think now...

到底我們討論獨立是什麼意思

What exactly do we mean when we discuss independence?

然後還有一個問題就是

And then there is another question, which is...

就是

That is it.

就是剛剛那個座他講

That's exactly what the seat he just mentioned.

就是我們對於

It is that we regard

那個想到以前的事情

That makes me think of the past.

會覺得很悲痛

Will feel very grieved.

譬如二二八四你覺得很悲痛這樣

For example, you feel very sad about February 28th, 1947.

那其實我覺得

Actually, I think that...

我們下一代需要知道的事情

Things that our next generation needs to know.

就是我們需要知道這些事

That's just what we need to know.

但我們能不能夠

But can we...

傳遞一樣的

Convey the same.

心情

Mood

我們會不會感受到

Will we feel it?

一樣的心情

The same feeling.

我覺得是很難說

I think it's hard to say.

因為我們都知道

Because we all know

呃

猶太人被迫害的事情

The persecution of the Jews.

這可能大家都知道

This is something that everyone might know.

比二二八四這樣更多

More than 2284 like this.

然後死了更多人

Then more people died.

可是

But

我們想

We want.

這件事情的時候

When this matter happened

我們心中

In our hearts

到底有多悲痛

How painful exactly is it?

我們也知道這件事情

We also know about this matter.

可是就是

But it is just that.

那種情緒是

That kind of emotion is

可能是沒有辦法被

It may not be possible to be.

隨著文字傳遞下來

Passed down through writing.

但是你就知道這件事情

But you know this matter.

而且有時候

And sometimes

然後再來就是

Then comes the next part.

我覺得

I think.

我們需要

We need

我們下一輩需要知道

Our next generation needs to know.

就是一個

It's just one.

是具有良好的公民的意識

It is to have a good awareness of citizenship.

並且知道

and also know

如何去捍衛自己的權利

How to defend one's rights.

然後如何去爭取自己的自由

Then how to fight for one's own freedom.

如果這樣的話

If that's the case.

我們就算不知道

Even if we don't know.

以前的歷史

Past history

也可以避免這件事情再發生

It can also prevent this from happening again.

就是你永遠知道

It's just that you always know.

你不能

You cannot.

你要爭取自己的權利

You need to fight for your rights.

不能被壓制

Cannot be suppressed.

然後願意挺身而出

Then willing to stand up.

就覺得看不過去

Just feel like I can't stand it.

就要挺身而出的話

If you are going to step up and take action.

那我覺得

Then I think...

就是這種歷史

It's this kind of history.

可能就不會再發生了

It might not happen again.

不過你這樣講的話

However, if you say it this way...

剛好跟詩郁大哥最後那個

Just coincidentally with Brother Shiyu's last one.

很快樂的去想

Think happily.

台灣的

Taiwan's

做一個國家這件事

The matter of making a country.

就我知道的

As far as I know.

我先講一個

I'll start by telling one.

就是說

That is to say.

我們講台灣獨立這件事

We talk about the issue of Taiwan's independence.

獨立有兩個意思

Independence has two meanings.

其實就是台灣成為一個國家

Actually, it means Taiwan has become a country.

我們先不用用字義上面來講

Let's not discuss it in terms of literal meanings for now.

可是

But

現在在國際法上面有兩個

There are currently two in international law.

就是說

That is to say.

一個是De facto

One is De facto.

就是事實上的

It's just a matter of fact.

一個是De Jure

One is De Jure.

意思是說

It means to say.

你是被承認的

You are recognized.

台灣是在

Taiwan is in

做一個

Make one.

國家來講

In terms of the country

事實上的國家

De facto country

它沒有問題

It has no problem.

所以這個符合你第一個定義

So this meets your first definition.

台灣已經是一個獨立的國家了

Taiwan is already an independent country.

那可是呢

That could be it.

它是沒有被承認的

It is not recognized.

那如果當它沒有被承認

Then what if it is not recognized?

它做一個國家的

It acts as a country’s...

就不完整

Just incomplete.

那不完整就表現在哪

Where does that incompleteness manifest?

表現在我們只有代表處

We only have a representative office.

我們沒有大使館

We don't have an embassy.

我們這麼辛苦培養的外交官

The diplomats we have worked so hard to cultivate.

出去外面大部分只能做社交

Most of the time, going outside is primarily for socializing.

那就有點可惜

That's a bit of a pity.

或者說我們這麼好的人才

Or we could say that we are such great talents.

可以推廣出去的時候

When it can be promoted.

發現

Discovery

我們出去外面的時候

When we go outside.

矮了一截

Shortened by a section.

所以它是在承認的上面去談

So it is about discussing on top of the acknowledgment.

這個國家的完整性

The integrity of this country.

所以如果說要談

So if we are going to talk about...

台灣獨立這件事情

The issue of Taiwan independence.

當然不是

Of course not.

我覺得有另外一種

I think there is another kind.

這樣的解釋方式

This way of explanation.

可能會

It might.

比如說

For example

就回到你剛剛講平等的問題

Let’s go back to the issue of equality that you just mentioned.

我們跟別人是

We are with others.

可以平等的對待的

Can be treated equally.

那我們

Then we

可能在台灣獨立這件事情

Possibly regarding the matter of Taiwan's independence.

就獨立

Just independence.

作為一個國家

As a country

只是跟別人保持一個平等

Just maintain equality with others.

對待

To treat

我們也不願意侵略別人

We also do not wish to invade others.

我們也不想被矮化

We also don't want to be belittled.

然後我們就保持一個平等的狀態

Then we maintain an equal state.

那這個大概是我知道

So this is probably what I know.

那我想說

Then I want to say

能不能請施育兄再補充一下

Could you please ask Brother Shi Yu to provide more details?

我想

I think.

我必須要把

I must put...

剛剛我對那個

Just now, I was talking about that.

要不要了解歷史

Do you want to understand history?

這個說法稍微釐清一下

This statement needs some clarification.

但是第一種是因為

But the first kind is because

我說了我不是一個

I said I am not one.

或者我不希望自己

Or maybe I don't want to be myself.

是一個民族主義者

He is a nationalist.

因為民族主義者

Because of nationalists.

他會很想盡辦法去創造

He will try his best to create.

去想像一個共同的歷史

Imagine a shared history.

共同的傷痕

Shared scars

去找一個典範

Go find a model.

那麼

Then

這跟了解真相其實無關的

This actually has nothing to do with understanding the truth.

那麼作為一個信仰

Then as a belief

信仰

Faith

公民民族主義者的人來講

For civic nationalists.

會覺得說

Would feel that

如果

我們能用一種比較健康的

We can use a healthier way.

假設我們是一個

Assuming we are a

未來

Future

一個很文明

A very civilized one.

在文化上沒有這些扭曲的

There are no such distortions in culture.

心結

Emotional knot

沒有這些complex的國家的時候呢

When there are no complex countries like these.

我們來了解我們的歷史

Let's learn about our history.

那麼會用不同的說法

Then it can be expressed in different ways.

我剛剛的說法就代表我這一代

What I just said represents my generation.

心裡有很多結的人的講法

People who have a lot of knots in their hearts.

所以我跟你們說

So I told you all.

我有很多痛苦

I have a lot of pain.

我看到苦難

I see suffering.

我看到屍體

I saw a corpse.

我看到傷痕

I see scars.

我不希望那些經驗傳達給各位

I don't want those experiences to be transmitted to you all.

事實上我的意思是

In fact, what I mean is

歷史應該從另外一個角度來了解

History should be understood from another perspective.

如果可能的話

If possible

從未來往回看

Looking back from the future.

如果你從我的角度往回看

If you look back from my perspective.

台灣很難見過

It's hard to see in Taiwan.

如果你

If you

從我的角度去看

From my perspective.

很容易就形成一種

It easily forms a kind of

國家觀

National view

或者一種史觀說

Or a historical perspective suggests.

在這個土地上

On this land

曾經發生一群人

Once there was a group of people.

破壞

Destruction

迫害另外一群人

Persecute another group of people.

那麼在這個社會

In this society then

這兩群

These two groups.

還繼續存在

Still exists.

一群叫做加害者

A group called offenders.

一群叫做被害者

A group called victims.

我們所有的人

All of us.

名字不是寫在這一份

The name is not written on this document.

名單上面

On the list.

那你想我們

Then what do you want us to do?

這個國家往前

This country moves forward.

你可以看到多少希望

How much hope can you see?

所以我在情緒上

So I am emotionally

我覺得那樣的用詞

I think that kind of wording...

當然是很misleading

Of course, it's very misleading.

不好

Not good.

所以我說

So I said

我寧可你們不知道

I would rather you not know.

事實上我應該說

In fact, I should say.

我寧可你們不要

I would rather you not.

用

Use

我這樣的方式

My way of doing things.

來了解

Come to understand.

上一代的過去

The past of the previous generation.

不要用

Don't use it.

先假設我是被害者

First, assume that I am the victim.

或先假設

Or assume first.

媽的難道我是加害者嗎

Damn, am I the perpetrator?

去了解

Go and learn.

這時候我們沒有辦法

At this time, we have no way to do anything.

像我剛剛講的

Like I just said.

分成兩本簿子

Divided into two notebooks.

你或者名字寫在這一本

You can write your name in this book.

或者那一本

Or that one.

而希望它能夠變成一個

and hope it can become a

大家都可以

Everyone can.

從中得到快樂

Find joy in it.

並且

and

驕傲的一個國度

A proud nation.

是不可能的

It is impossible.

所以很抱歉

So I apologize.

剛剛我稍微misleading

I was just a little misleading.

但是我希望

But I hope.

你們去了解歷史的時候

When you go to learn about history

要在這個角度

At this angle.

那麼在目前

So at the moment

我覺得有困難

I feel difficult.

在目前你要找到這樣的

You need to find something like this right now.

這樣的一種

Such a kind.

narrative

一種敘事

A type of narrative

你可以找到不同的敘事

You can find different narratives.

但是我擔心那個敘事

But I am worried about that narrative.

不是那一種

Not that kind.

就是這一種

This is the one.

那這樣做妨礙你

Then this will hinder you.

其實也不能做妨礙

Actually, it can't be obstructive either.

因為你不可能沒有情緒

Because it's impossible for you to be without emotions.

但是你那個情緒要能夠控制

But you need to be able to control that emotion.

要能夠不讓你

To be able to not let you.

形成一種

Forming a kind of

敵我矛盾那樣子的恨

The hatred like the contradiction between enemies and ourselves.

否則沒有辦法解決

Otherwise, there is no way to solve it.

像我經常要提醒我自己

I often have to remind myself.

我恨誰

I hate who.

如果有機會

If there is a chance.

假使我能夠有機會

If I could have the opportunity.

去追求轉型正義

To pursue transitional justice.

那麼我可以原諒到什麼地步

So how far can I forgive?

我每天就想這個問題

I think about this question every day.

我覺得有一些直接下令傷害人的

I think some people directly order harm to others.

我還是沒有辦法原諒他

I still cannot forgive him.

我舉兩個例子

I will give two examples.

第一個例子就是

The first example is

這些人有沒有罪

Are these people guilty?

從那個二次大任之後

After that second great responsibility.

當然很多人還是不承認

Of course, many people still do not admit it.

但是二次大任之後呢

But what comes after the second great mission?

從紐倫堡開始

Starting from Nuremberg.

確定了一些

Confirmed some.

一些法律立法律

Some laws establish laws.

就是說

That is to say.

你不能因為你是奉命

You can't just do it because you are ordered to.

執行

Execute

那你就說

Then you just say.

我當年

I back then.

犯了戰爭罪行可以被原諒

War crimes can be forgiven.

我沒有犯了

I didn't do anything wrong.

你可以逃避

You can escape.

譬如說

For example.

種族屠殺罪

Genocide

種族滅絕罪

Genocide

這些東西

These things.

你不能用那個來

You can't use that to do it.

要求赦免

Request for clemency.

這個其實在

This is actually in.

在國際公安法上已經有這樣的例子

There are already such examples in international public security law.

到今天甚至說

Even today, it can be said.

你在西歐某些國家

You are in some countries in Western Europe.

你如果公開主張

If you publicly assert

納粹

Nazi

迫害猶太人的事實不存在

The fact of persecuting Jews does not exist.

是一種犯罪行為

It is a criminal act.

另外呢

Additionally,

我再舉一個例子

Let me give another example.

在南非

In South Africa.

他處理

He handles.

那個真相與和解委員會

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

處理當年的種族侵襲

Dealing with the racial invasions of that year.

種族迫害

Racial persecution

他是這樣處理

He handles it this way.

他給被害人

He gave to the victim.

一個得到赦免的機會

A chance for forgiveness.

但是有兩個條件

But there are two conditions.

第一個條件

The first condition.

你必須誠實的交代

You must be honest and explain.

你當年

You back then.

做了什麼壞事

What bad things have been done?

譬如說

For example

我曾經殺害了

I once killed.

在沒有任何理由的情況下

Without any reason.

或者

並沒有

There isn't any.

對方並沒有罪行

The other party has committed no crime.

或是沒有反正的情況下

Or in a situation without any certainty.

我殺害了

I killed.

某些黑人

Some Black people

殺了多少黑人

How many black people were killed?

第二個

The second one.

你必須要誠實

You must be honest.

第一必須要誠實

First, you must be honest.

第二呢

Secondly,

你必須要說

You must say.

你必須要誠實說

You must speak honestly.

當年我做這個事情

Back then, I did this thing.

是基於當時的政治情勢

It is based on the political situation at that time.

我認為那是對的

I think that's right.

而不是基於私怨

Instead of being based on personal grievances.

我不是私下去報復

I don't seek revenge in private.

如果這兩個條件達到的話

If these two conditions are met.

你可以得到赦免

You can receive forgiveness.

那我也覺得說

Then I also think that.

我沒有辦法

I have no way.

有些人我是沒有辦法原諒的

There are some people I just can't forgive.

就像當年那些特務機關的人

Just like those agents from back in the day.

當年那些軍閥機關的人

The people from the warlord organizations back then.

我沒有辦法原諒

I cannot forgive.

那些下令的

Those who gave the orders.

我也沒辦法原諒

I also can't forgive.

但是你告訴我說

But you told me that...

我要不要再把我的恨

Should I express my hatred again?

擴大成被害族群

Expand the victimized group.

跟加害族群

With the perpetrator group

以至於讓這個社會

to the extent that it allows this society

沒有和解的可能

There is no possibility of reconciliation.

那我覺得

Then I think

就我們

Just us.

希望在台灣能夠推動

Hope to promote in Taiwan.

轉型正義的

Transitional justice's

這樣的角度來看的話

From this perspective.

我覺得這是

I think this is

this to nowhere

这无处可去

我會放棄這種想法

I will give up this kind of thought.

好

Good.

讓各位表達到這裡

Let everyone express themselves here.

我只有一個想法

I only have one idea.

就是說我覺得

That means I think.

剛剛那種所謂加害族群

The so-called victimizing group just now.

或被害族群那個想法是

Or the idea of the victimized group is

好像有原罪的想法在裡面

It seems like there is a notion of original sin in it.

就是說

That is to say.

我爸爸做的事情

The things my dad does.

我兒子也要擔那個罪

My son also has to bear that罪.

可是我覺得這個觀念

But I think this concept

本身就是錯的

It is inherently wrong.

就是說每個人都是獨立的個體

It means that each person is an independent individual.

就算我的祖先是一個壞蛋

Even if my ancestor was a bad guy.

那也是他做的事情

That is also something he did.

不是我

Not me.

應該是有這種分

There should be such a division.

就是說

That is to say

這個觀念如果錯的話

If this concept is wrong

當然會有那種

Of course there will be that kind.

所謂說加害者的名單

The so-called list of perpetrators.

或被害者的名單

Or the list of victims.

那像我自己的

Like my own.

就是說我自己的經驗

That is to say, my own experience.

我覺得

I think.

我有很多朋友也都是

I have many friends who are also.

而且有一段時間我發現

And for a period of time, I found out that...

就是我自己去勾我的那個

It's me who went to hook that myself.

我認識的人裡面

Among the people I know

我比較好的朋友

My better friend.

都是外省人

They are all from other provinces.

然後

Then

其實我在

Actually, I am here.

那個比較小的時候

That one is when I was younger.

對外省人這個概念

The concept of outsiders from other provinces.

沒有很清楚

Not very clear.

那我後來發現說

Then I later found out that

這個難道

Is this difficult?

當我知道228

When I learned about 228.

也沒有想到說

I didn't expect that either.

我會去把他們說

I will go and tell them.

你們都是

You all are.

那個迫害者的後代

The descendants of that persecutor.

我也沒有這樣想

I didn't think that way either.

那也是經過了好久以後

That was after a long time.

後來有一天我想到這個問題

Later one day, I thought about this problem.

然後我就想說

Then I thought to myself.

這個有那麼嚴重嗎

Is it that serious?

那我後來慢慢去釐清這個問題

So later I slowly clarified this issue.

發現

Discovery

就好像說陳欣欣的小孩

It's like saying Chen Xinxin's child.

為什麼在台灣沒有辦法生活下去

Why is it not possible to live in Taiwan?

因為台灣人好像都有一種

Because Taiwanese people seem to have a kind of

負債止還的心理

The psychology of debt repayment.

好像說他老爸是個壞蛋

It seems to say that his dad is a bad guy.

所以這個小孩子

So this child

好像也要擔那個罪一樣

It seems like one has to bear that sin as well.

我覺得這個本身

I think this itself

這個觀念就有問題

This concept has issues.

就是如果

It is just if.

大家有這個文明的觀念的話

If everyone has this concept of civilization.

其實就算是追究歷史

In fact, even if we pursue history.

又有什麼關係

What does it matter?

就好像說那個蔣介石的後代

It's like saying the descendants of Chiang Kai-shek.

那個現在在開那個

That one is currently being opened.

什麼廣告公司的

Which advertising company?

對對對

Yes, yes, yes.

也沒有人覺得說

No one thinks that.

他爺爺的事情

His grandfather's matters.

或者說他爸爸的事情

Or talk about his father's matters.

要由他來擔這個責任

He should take on this responsibility.

這個每個人都是獨立的個體

Each person is an independent individual.

我是這樣覺得

This is how I feel.

謝謝

Thank you.

我們先讓那個欣燕

Let's first let that Xin Yan.

那個因為她念法律的嘛

That's because she studies law.

先讓那個休息一下

Let that one rest first.

我聽到這個問題

I heard this question.

我第一個心中的想法是

My first thought in my heart is

這位同學

This student.

我們這其中一定有什麼誤會

There must be some misunderstanding among us.

好像現在政府很喜歡這樣講

It seems that the government really likes to say it this way now.

其實我在念書就是

Actually, I am studying.

我現在在念研究所

I am currently studying in graduate school.

那我老闆就是我的指導教授

Then my boss is my advisor.

講過一句話我覺得非常有道理

I once heard a saying that I think is very reasonable.

他說台灣現在

He said Taiwan is now.

情況之下是怎麼樣呢

What is the situation like?

是被害者互相加害

It is the victims harming each other.

大家想一下有沒有道理

Everyone think about whether it makes sense.

其實有一些

Actually, there are some.

就像說有一些人

Just like saying there are some people.

他可能會譬如說

He might say, for example,

他覺得以前被

He feels that he was treated in the past.

被那個國語政策打壓

Suppressed by that Mandarin policy.

不能講台語

Cannot speak Taiwanese Mandarin.

現在可以講台語

Now I can speak Taiwanese.

他會盡量講台語

He will try to speak Taiwanese Hokkien as much as possible.

然後會去跟別人講說

Then I will go tell others.

你為什麼不講台語

Why don't you speak Taiwanese?

你明明是台灣人

You are clearly Taiwanese.

然後被指責的那個人也覺得

Then the person who was accused also felt that

也覺得他很冤枉啊

I also think he is wronged.

不會講台語又不是我的錯

It's not my fault that I can't speak Taiwanese.

對不對

Is that right?

那這時候我就很想說

At that moment, I really wanted to say.

這其中一定有什麼誤會

There must be some misunderstanding in this.

就出來說大家不要吵了

Just come out and say everyone stop arguing.

不是你的錯

It's not your fault.

也不是他的錯

It's not really his fault.

誰的錯

Whose fault is it?

國民黨的錯

The Kuomintang's fault.

對

Correct.

所以我常常跟我同學講

So I often tell my classmates.

就是說我們罵國民黨就好了

That means we can just criticize the Kuomintang.

我也不討厭外省之類的

I don't dislike people from other provinces either.

就是說

That is to say.

或者是說

Or rather,

我甚至認為說

I even think to say

就是本省跟外省

It's just the difference between this province and other provinces.

確實這個概念

Indeed, this concept.

它本身就是很可疑的

It is itself very suspicious.

因為某種程度

Because of a certain degree.

它是被不正義的政權綁架的

It is abducted by an unjust regime.

到底是誰在分

Who is dividing it?

本省的外省人

People from other provinces in this province.

本來台灣有在分嗎

Is Taiwan originally divided?

台灣本來是

Taiwan was originally

這個我有歷史的文件

I have historical documents.

比如說在二二八的事件的

For example, regarding the February 28 incident.

那個事件調查報告

The investigation report on that incident.

排崇禧在當時在談的時候

When Pai Chongxi was talking at that time

就有提到本省跟外省

It mentions the province and other provinces.

所以本省跟外省

So the province and other provinces.

那個區別是很早的

That distinction is very early.

可是他真的浮上檯面去談

But he really brought it to the table for discussion.

真的談本省跟外省

Really talk about the province and the outside provinces.

真的浮上檯面

Really come to the surface.

真的是在二零零年之後

It really is after the year 2000.

那種大規模在談

That kind of large-scale discussion.

然後那個檯面

Then that countertop.

那個談這個東西

That talks about this thing.

就是要去讓這點產生衝突

It is about creating a conflict from this point.

那談這個衝突有好處

Then talking about this conflict has its benefits.

因為隨隨便便

Because it's casual.

依照這兩個分類

According to these two categories.

隨隨便便誰都會被綁架

Anyone can be easily kidnapped.

那就會產生他們之間彼此的仇恨

That will generate hatred between them.

那我們可能就是被捲進在這裡面的

Then we might be caught up in this.

可是如果按照歷史來講

But if we talk about history,

如果去找那個二二八

If you go to find that February 28.

那個什麼

That something.

刊亂什麼什麼

Publish chaos whatever whatever

調

tune

不是不是

No, no.

不是臨時條款

Not a temporary clause.

它有那個二二八調查事件報告

It has the report on the February 28 Incident.

是由

It is made of.

蔡同學去寫的

Classmate Cai went to write.

那個報告裡面

In that report.

那個本省外省的名詞就很清楚

The term distinguishing between local and non-local is very clear.

那個其實上

That actually...

它不是後來的發明的產物

It is not a product of later invention.

那這也是在

Then this is also in...

在一般在使用上面的時候

When generally using the above.

他們會使用的

They will use it.

對然後

Yes, and then.

謝謝

Thank you.

這是沈大哥的補充

This is Brother Shen's supplement.

對

Yes.

那其實臺灣以前移民社會喔

Actually, Taiwan used to be an immigrant society.

其實是沒有在分這些的啦

Actually, there is no distinction being made about these things.

就是頂多會分說你來的地方

It just means they'll at most mention where you're from.

譬如說有權章

For example, there is a power chapter.

甚至跟客家人

Even with the Hakka people.

可能跟原住民有一些區分

There may be some distinctions with the indigenous people.

可是剛才沈大哥講的是說

But what Brother Shen just said was...

就是本省人外省人

It's just locals and outsiders.

那時候是怎麼

How was it at that time?

這個分化是怎麼出現

How does this differentiation occur?

那它還有一個更早的一個名詞

Then it also has an even earlier term.

出現

appear

叫做什麼

What is it called?

臺灣人

Taiwanese people

是先出現臺灣人這個詞

The term "Taiwanese" appeared first.

可是為什麼會出現臺灣人這個詞

But why does the term "Taiwanese" appear?

其實我們就在講說

Actually, we are just saying that.

通常會有一個群我的分別出來

Usually, there will be a group that distinguishes me.

就是如果我們在做學術研究的時候

It's just that if we are doing academic research

通常會有一個群

There will usually be a group.

群我的分別出來

Separate me from the group.

一定第一個要件是

The first requirement is definitely that.

有不公平的待遇

There is unfair treatment.

而且這個不公平的待遇

Moreover, this unfair treatment.

就是針對你的一些

It is specifically aimed at you.

我們現在叫做族群的不同

What we now call the differences between ethnic groups.

來做一些分類

Let's do some categorization.

其實我們就講啊

Actually, let's just talk.

所謂的外省人裡面

Among the so-called outsiders.

好多省喔

So many provinces!

對不對

Right?

你說東北的人

You said people from the Northeast.

跟東南跟西南的人的差異這麼大

The difference between people from the southeast and those from the southwest is so great.

為什麼他們會被歸於一個群體

Why are they categorized as a group?

其實他們本來是不同的

Actually, they were originally different.

可是為什麼他們會被歸類成一個族群

But why are they classified as a group?

那

That.

suppose就是有一些歷史原因

"Suppose has some historical reasons."

就譬如說我們的一些

For example, some of our...

國家的制度

The system of the country.

他對於

He is about to.

在1945年前後的移民

Immigration around 1945.

做了不同的規範

Made different specifications.

而這個差別待遇的劃線就劃在那裡

And this line of differential treatment is drawn right there.

他就

He just

他就推你1945年前跟1945年以後

He just pushes you before and after 1945.

所以這就變成分兩個群體

So this has resulted in two groups.

而忽略了他們彼此之間

And overlooked their relationship with each other.

1945年以前的有

Prior to 1945.

有什麼有原住民對不對

What is there with indigenous people, right?

有權章

Authority章

有客家

There are Hakka.

為什麼他們會變成一群

Why did they become a group?

所以這個東西其實不是我們自己要去分出來的

So this thing is actually not something we need to divide on our own.

我們是被綁架出來的

We were kidnapped.

那其實台灣人更早

Actually, the Taiwanese people were earlier.

其實比這還更早出現

In fact, it appeared even earlier than this.

在日治時期就出現了

It appeared during the period of Japanese rule.

為什麼

Why?

跟所謂的本島人做區別嘛

To distinguish from so-called island residents.

一樣啊

Same as always.

一樣是兩個情況嘛

It's still two different situations.

他有一個差別待遇

He has a differential treatment.

這個差別待遇不公平

This differential treatment is unfair.

那他的不合理是建議在什麼

Then what is his unreasonable suggestion?

因為他就是用你的這個所謂的族群

Because he is using your so-called group.

來做一個區分這樣子

Let's make a distinction like this.

那講到這邊的時候

When it comes to this point,

我會覺得說

I would think that...

順便也回應一下剛才這位同學

Also, let me respond to the classmate just now.

反正我們都在念研究所

Anyway, we are all in graduate school.

可以溝通一下

Can we communicate a bit?

就是說可能也可以回答到你的問題

In other words, it could also answer your question.

就是我覺得

I just think that.

加害跟被害

Perpetration and victimization

我們是不是一定要這樣子去看事情

Do we have to look at things this way?

還有就是你剛才提到的

And also what you just mentioned.

就是說我們對於歷史的了解

That is to say, our understanding of history.

這個情感有沒有辦法傳遞

Is there any way to convey this emotion?

以我個人的經驗來講

In my personal experience.

我覺得還是很有可能的

I think it is still very likely.

因為譬如說

Because, for example,

雖然說納粹跟我們好像

Although it is said that the Nazis are similar to us.

其實沒有什麼很大的關係

Actually, it doesn't really matter.

可是你看新德勒名單會不會哭

But do you cry when you see Schindler's List?

會耶

I can.

像雖然說我很不想跟中國統一

Although I really don't want to unify with China.

可是我看了南京

But I have seen Nanjing.

南京會不會哭

Will Nanjing cry?

也是會

Will do too.

前陣子我看了《靈災邪案》也許

A while ago, I watched "The Demonic Case".

就是你在看文字描述的時候

It's when you are reading the text description.

確實它已經有一些震撼

Indeed, it has already had some impact.

可是真正讓我落淚的是什麼

But what truly made me cry was this.

是那一張照片上面

It's on that photo.

林義雄在痛哭的表情

Lin Yixiong's expression of grief.

我現在講一講會覺得有點哽咽

I feel a bit choked up when I talk about it now.

因為你只要看到那個畫面

Because you only need to see that scene.

或你想像出那個畫面

Or you can imagine that scene.

你想像他平常講話那麼冷靜的一個人

You can imagine how calm a person like him usually speaks.

他會出現那樣的一個表情

He would have such an expression.

這讓我想到一個很強烈的對照組

This makes me think of a very strong contrast group.

我們小時候

When we were young.

我不知道你是不是有共同的經驗

I don't know if you have the same experience.

小學的時候

When I was in elementary school

可能才三四年級還很小

They might still be in third or fourth grade, quite young.

我們那時候都要搬著那個

At that time, we all had to move that.

我們自己上課坐的那個椅子

The chair we sit on in class.

搬到禮堂去

Move to the hall.

然後排成一排

Then line up in a row.

幹嘛看電影

What are you doing? Watching a movie.

在禮堂看電影

Watching a movie in the auditorium.

然後學校會播電影給我們看

Then the school will show us a movie.

看的都是什麼東西

What are you looking at?

《國父傳》

"Biography of the Father of the Nation"

《騎聖飄飄》

"Riding the Sacred Breeze"

有沒有大家有沒有共同的經驗

Does everyone have a shared experience?

你們跟市長

You and the mayor.

那你們比較好

Then you are better.

我們好像也有看過

It seems like we have also seen it.

《仙女奇緣》的樣子

The appearance of "The Fairy Tale".

但是我們也有看這種東西

But we also watch this kind of thing.

然後我記得還有看什麼

Then I remember there was something else I watched.

《八二三砲戰》

"Battle of August 23"

最近電影台又在重播

The movie channel is replaying again recently.

你們是確定你們是同世代的嗎

Are you sure you are from the same generation?

不同地區

Different regions

對你可能是偏遠地區

Yes, you may be in a remote area.

對我是偏遠地區

Yes, I am in a remote area.

看《八二三砲戰》的時候

When watching "The Battle of August 23"

有一幕我到現在印象都還很深刻

There is a scene that I still remember vividly.

讓我從來不願意看這部電影第二次

It makes me unwilling to watch this movie a second time.

就是要打仗了

It's time for war.

然後一個孫子

Then a grandson.

不是就是要上山

Isn't it just to go up the mountain?

上戰場了

Going to the battlefield.

然後他的老奶奶就

Then his grandmother...

正氣凌寒

Righteousness overcomes the chill.

跟他的孫子講說

Tell his grandson.

你給我去好好的打

You go and fight well.

我完全崩潰

I'm completely overwhelmed.

完全崩潰

Totally collapsed.

我不相信我今天如果要上戰場

I don't believe that if I go to the battlefield today.

我阿嬤會跟我講這種話

My grandmother would tell me things like this.

違反人性嘛

It is a violation of humanity.

就最基本人性就是你

The most basic human nature is you.

你抱頭痛哭

You hold your head and cry in pain.

我覺得這不為過

I don't think this is an exaggeration.

我覺得這一點都不為過

I don't think this is an exaggeration at all.

對可是你看這個差異就

Yes, but you see this difference...

像譬如說我們看《未愛朗讀》

For example, when we watch "Unheard Readings."

《未愛朗讀》其實就有一點是站在

"Unloved Readings" actually stands from a certain perspective.

就是當初加害者的觀點

It is the perspective of the perpetrator from the beginning.

我們就發現其實

We found that actually

那個加害者也是被害者

That perpetrator is also a victim.

所以看起來是不是就是

So it seems like it is just that.

怎麼樣

How is it?

被害者互相加害

Victims harm each other.

然後怎麼樣

Then what?

加害者逍遙法外

The perpetrator is getting away with it.

後面這句是我自己加的

The following sentence is added by me.

對所以我是希望

Yes, so I hope.

我對歷史的了解

My understanding of history.

我會覺得說它不是那麼沉重的東西

I would think that it is not such a heavy thing.

我覺得那就像

I think that it is like

那個就是一個故事

That is just a story.

然後就像我們看電影一樣去了解

Then we can understand it just like we watch a movie.

我們會感動

We will be moved.

那可能我們得到的

Then it is possible that what we obtain.

因為已經有一個世代的差異的存在

Because there is already a generational gap.

我們會得到的可能不是恨

What we might get is not hate.

而是愛

But it is love.

我們承認了

We have admitted it.

從這裡面看到就是說

What can be seen from this is that

為什麼我們

Why us?

我們看到那些受苦的人

We see those who are suffering.

我們會難過

We will be sad.

是因為我們是這麼的愛我們身邊的人

It is because we love the people around us so much.

我們不願意這些事情

We are unwilling to have these things.

發生在我們自己或身邊的人的身上

Happening to ourselves or the people around us.

那我覺得這個人性是共通的

Then I think this human nature is common.

它永遠是會傳遞的

It will always be passed on.

那為什麼會有一個

Then why is there one?

一個政黨或是一些人

A political party or some people.

然後逼著我們要排隊去禮堂

Then they forced us to line up to go to the auditorium.

看823那種違反人性的電影

Watching a movie that violates human nature like 823.

這才是我們必須要去

This is what we must go to.

就是我們要去探討這些東西的時候

When we want to explore these things.

我們當然也不是說

Of course, we are not saying that...

你把他拖下來

You pulled him down.

然後背上插著一個牌子

Then a sign is attached to the back.

然後在那裡面跟吐他口水

Then spit on him inside there.

或是罰他們兩個跪在那裡

Or punish them both to kneel there.

好像有人跪過了

It seems that someone has knelt.

兩聲咀嚼

Two sounds of chewing.

但是我們不是

But we are not.

不需要做這樣的事情

There's no need to do such things.

但是我們可以從中去分析說

But we can analyze from this that...

說這樣子的操作

Talking about this kind of operation.

到底它是一個什麼樣的意義

What kind of meaning does it actually have?

那我們要如何用愛來對抗

Then how do we use love to fight against it?

這樣子的操弄

Such manipulation.

那我最後補充一點就好

Then I'll just add one last point.

就是剛才林大哥說

Just now, Brother Lin said.

轉型正義的問題

The issue of transitional justice.

我當然也認為轉型正義非常重要

I certainly believe that transitional justice is very important.

可是根據我了解

But based on my understanding

我可能甚至必須說

I might even have to say.

228之類這些事情

Events like 228.

白色恐怖這些事情

The White Terror and these matters.

不是轉型正義的問題

It is not an issue of transitional justice.

它根本就是非法的暴力

It is essentially illegal violence.

它在當時

It was at that time.

它就不是合法的做法

It is not a legitimate way to do it.

我們說轉型正義

We talk about transitional justice.

至少那個作為

At least that action.

在當時是合乎法律的

At that time, it was legal.

那我們現在看起來覺得

Then it seems to us now that...

它不合乎法內在精神的正義

It does not conform to the inherent spirit of justice in the law.

我們才要去轉型

We just need to make a transformation.

可是我認為很多

But I think a lot of.

發生在台灣的一些邪惡的事情

Some evil things that have happened in Taiwan.

它本來就是不合法的

It was illegal from the beginning.

所以我們現在是要

So we are now going to...

用愛跟正義

With love and justice.

對

Yes.

再來重新思考這樣的事情

Let’s rethink such matters.

謝謝

Thank you.

我們先等一下

Let's wait a moment first.

先讓那個

Let that one first.

我們有順序

We have order.

請蘇秉講一下好不好

Could you please let Su Bing speak for a moment?

我想我補充幾個

I think I would like to add a few more.

就是說其實大家講的東西

What everyone is talking about, in fact.

可能也沒有差很多

It might not make much of a difference.

但是我想要做一些

But I want to do something.

因為我喜歡當魔鬼代言人

Because I like being the devil's advocate.

就是說

That is to say.

剛譬如說一開始說

Just like I mentioned at the beginning...

大家看到王健民都會一起加油

Everyone cheers together when they see Wang Jianmin.

但是我覺得說

But I think that...

那個不見得是國家意識

That may not necessarily be national consciousness.

那個有可能只是地方意識

That might just be a sense of local identity.

就跟湖南隊跟上海隊在打球的時候

Just like when the Hunan team is playing against the Shanghai team.

湖南人都會幫湖南隊加油一樣

People from Hunan will cheer for the Hunan team in the same way.

就是說那個東西是不是國家意識

That means whether that thing is national consciousness or not.

我覺得我們

I think we

可以樂觀的認為是

It can be optimistically considered to be.

但是我覺得也要小心一點

But I think we also need to be a little careful.

第二個就是說

The second one is to say

我自己是美國邪惡商學院訓練的

I am trained by the evil business school of the United States.

所以我看事情都很實際

So I take a very practical view of things.

台灣沒有法理獨立

Taiwan does not have legal independence.

其實我們交了很多沒有獨立的稅

In fact, we have paid a lot of taxes that are not independent.

今天如果台灣是一個國家

Today, if Taiwan is a country.

我們其實很多外交的經費

We actually have a lot of funding for diplomacy.

是不用這樣子花的

There's no need to spend like this.

台灣不是一個獨立的國家

Taiwan is not an independent country.

我們很多錢也賺不到

We can't earn a lot of money either.

像我自己在學界

Like myself in academia.

歐盟有一個很大的歐盟計畫

The European Union has a large EU plan.

但是因為台灣不是獨立的國家

But because Taiwan is not an independent country.

你台灣的教授

Your professors in Taiwan.

沒有辦法獨立去申請歐盟計畫

There is no way to apply for the EU program independently.

你一定要綁一個

You must tie one up.

是一個獨立國家的教授

A professor of an independent country.

當他的PI

When his PI

兩個

Two

你才有辦法去申請

You are the only one who can apply.

這只是一個例子

This is just an example.

其實歐盟有非常

Actually, the EU has a lot.

就是說

That is to say.

世界組織有非常多類似的計畫

World organizations have many similar programs.

或是說商機

Or speaking of business opportunities.

因為台灣不是一個獨立的國家

Because Taiwan is not an independent country.

你根本沒有機會

You have no chance at all.

比如說最近美國開始在

For example, recently the United States has started to...

區域主導一個太平洋經濟合約

Regional leadership of a Pacific economic agreement.

台灣也不在上面

Taiwan is not on it either.

就是說

That is to say.

其實從現實上

In reality,

你不是一個法理獨立的國家

You are not a legally independent country.

你就會損失很多利益

You will lose a lot of benefits.

追求一個獨立國家的過程

The process of pursuing an independent nation.

我先講轉型正義

I will first talk about transitional justice.

轉型正義其實

Transitional justice actually

我覺得很多國家都已經做過

I think many countries have already done it.

剛剛那個與台人也談過

I just talked to that person from Taiwan.

東德跟東西德跟南非

East Germany and East and West Germany and South Africa.

其實他的步驟大概就是調查

Actually, his steps are probably just to investigate.

調查之後知道真相之後

After the investigation, knowing the truth.

還是要處罰

It still needs to be punished.

還是要賠償

Still need to compensate.

還是要認錯

Still need to admit the mistake.

最後才有原諒

Forgiveness comes only at the end.

這個其實也符合我的基督教信仰

This actually aligns with my Christian faith.

上帝其實是最愛的猶太人

God actually loves the Jewish people the most.

一個叫大衛王

A person named King David.

但是大衛王犯錯的時候

But when King David made a mistake

上帝處罰大衛王也是很慘

God's punishment of King David was also very tragic.

不只讓他沒有王位

Not only does it deprive him of the throne.

最後他一個人要在荒郊野外

In the end, he has to be alone in the wilderness.

所以我不太了解

So I don't really understand.

就是說台灣有很多

That is to say, Taiwan has many.

對於轉型正義的論調

Regarding the discourse on transitional justice.

我意思就是說

I mean to say.

其實國際已經

In fact, the international community has already...

大家都知道應該怎麼做了

Everyone knows what to do.

其實台灣就照做就好了

Actually, Taiwan just needs to follow suit.

那我覺得台灣現在比較困難的

I think Taiwan is currently facing more difficulties.

就是說

That is to say.

我們還一直在那個調查跟真相這邊排列

We are still arranging the investigation and the truth over here.

但是很多人可能不耐煩之後

However, many people may become impatient afterwards.

就很想跳躍步驟去談說

I really want to skip steps and talk about it.

那是不是要原諒啊

Does that mean we need to forgive?

是不是要幹嘛

Do you want to do something?

但是問題就是

But the problem is

你沒有人認錯你要原諒誰

You have no one to blame; who do you need to forgive?

那最後一個就是剛剛說

The last one is what we just mentioned.

每個人都是獨立的個體

Everyone is an independent individual.

我覺得我同意

I think I agree.

這點我同意

I agree with this point.

那所以不應該負債止償

Therefore, one should not stop repayment of debts.

但是如果今天因為父親的不正義

But if today is because of my father's injustice

讓小孩得到很大的利益的話

If the child can gain a great benefit.

小孩應不應該把利益還回來

Should children return the benefits?

這個我覺得是不一樣的命題啦

I think this is a different proposition.

就是不應該因為父親做的事情不對來處罰小孩

A child should not be punished for something their father did wrong.

但是今天如果是父親

But today, if it's the father.

因為那些事情

Because of those things.

讓他後代得到很大的利益呢

Let his descendants gain significant benefits.

如果我們要講究的是公平正義

If we are to emphasize fairness and justice.

那這塊應該怎麼處理

So how should this part be handled?

這我簡單的補充

This is my simple addition.

好謝謝蘇秉

Thank you, Su Bing.

他的Comment

His comment

然後剛還有兩位

Then just now there were two more people.

來

Come

再說一次你的名字

Say your name again.

现在是这样子

It is like this now.

不同的时代有不同的想法

Different times have different ideas.

那是我阿公那时候是

That was my grandpa back then.

因为他是属于

Because he belongs to

几乎差我差四十几岁

Almost forty years different from me.

我现在刚好就是228那年出生的

I was born in the year 228.

因为我阿公他虽然没有

Because my grandpa, even though he doesn't...

在日本没有读什么日本诗

I didn't read much Japanese poetry in Japan.

可是他智慧很高

But he is very intelligent.

我出生的时候就已经是228那年

I was born in the year of 228.

就远古三十六年

In the thirty-sixth year of ancient times.

然后当我一直长大的时候

Then, as I was growing up.

阿公就跟我讲说

Grandpa just told me that

228为什么会发生

Why did 228 happen?

他说其实那些什么卖烟的

He said that those who sell cigarettes actually...

那个都是一个借口

That’s just an excuse.

其实最大的

In fact, the biggest.

他是很了解

He understands very well.

他跟我讲说你不要

He told me that you don't want it.

政治最好不要去管

It's best not to get involved in politics.

他说为什么

He said why.

因为那时候是利用那一种

Because at that time we were using that kind.

就是那个卖烟的

It's the one who sells cigarettes.

那个林麦

That Lin Mai.

他是说那只是一个

He said that was just a

那个只是一个小的事件

That was just a small incident.

其实就是要怎么样

Actually, it's about how to do it.

就是要把那些

It is just to take those.

以前在台湾比较有

It used to be more common in Taiwan.

智慧比较高

Higher intelligence.

有读书的人

People who read books.

就是要文化断层

It is necessary to have a cultural discontinuity.

让你

Let you.

因为他比较好管

Because he is easier to manage.

那时候又来

Come again at that time.

真的

Really.

真的意见很多

There are really many opinions.

因为在台湾

Because in Taiwan

智慧那时候

At that time of wisdom.

日本教育他什么

What does Japanese education teach him?

他的那个水准

His level.

可能老师讲

Maybe the teacher is talking.

比他们过来高很多

Much taller than them.

那是一些人他怎么办

What should he do about those people?

他一定要想一个办法

He must think of a way.

把它切断

Cut it off.

那这个事情我也不晓得

Well, I don’t know about this matter either.

等到我们在读高中

Wait until we are in high school.

要去考那个公家的时候

When you want to go take that public exam.

为什么他们会自己

Why would they do it themselves?

会自动分出来

It will be automatically separated.

因为那时候国民党

Because at that time the Kuomintang

他自己把他分出来

He separated himself.

他说中国大陆

He said mainland China.

有10亿人口

There are 1 billion people.

那你这公务人员

Then you are a civil servant.

要用100个人

Need to use 100 people.

他就给你分配

He will assign it to you.

他说

He said.

山东可以种50个

Shandong can grow 50.

台湾可以种3个

Taiwan can grow three.

因为台湾人口比较少

Because Taiwan has a smaller population.

3个

Three.

这样分配

This way of distribution.

分配到最后

Allocate to the end.

变成说

Become a saying

台湾一直机会都很少

Taiwan has always had very few opportunities.

那时候我们那个年代

At that time, during our era.

真的没有办法

There really is no way.

要去公家机关很难

It's very difficult to get into government agencies.

因为每一个公家机关

Because every public institution

他都一定是

He must be.

照那个

According to that.

中国就用35省来来分配

China uses 35 provinces for allocation.

那个资料可以去

Where can that information be accessed?

大家可以去看那个五花果

Everyone can go see that fig.

武卓流那个五花果

Wu Zhuo Liu's fig.

所以他里面有个做一个表格

So he has a form to fill out inside.

那个表格里面就有提到这个

The form mentions this.

关于省级分配的这个问题

Regarding the issue of provincial allocation.

所以有时候

So sometimes

像你们现在

Like you now.

这一段算幸福了

This段 counts as happiness.

我们那时候很难

We had a hard time back then.

所以台湾会分也是从我们那一段就开始分了

So Taiwan's division began during that period with us.

谢谢

Thank you.

好

Good.

因为时间的关系

Due to time constraints.

我们到9点半结束

We finish at 9:30.

所以我们现在剩下

So what we have left now is...

还有点时间

There is still some time.

我们能不能请三位与台能各花个五分钟

Can we ask the three of you to each spend five minutes with Taiwan Power?

来

Come.

然后来谈一下

Then let's talk about it.

那如果说不做一些结论的话

Then if we don't draw any conclusions,

是不是也可以

Is it also possible?

他们也可以宣传一下最近在做什么

They can also promote what they have been doing recently.

然后什么活动也可以邀请大家一起去参加

Then any activity can invite everyone to participate together.

然后我们能不能先请那个

Then can we ask that one first?

成成一位导演

Become a director.

然后先开始

Then start first.