时事大家谈：网红侮辱日本游客事件发酵，中国反思民族主义？“长着中国脸没有中国心”，习近平警告中国教育？ - 9月 11日,2024年

字幕志愿者 杨栋梁

Subtitle Volunteer Yang Dongliang

欢迎收看美国之音9月11号的时事大家谈

Welcome to Voice of America’s Current Affairs Show on September 11th.

我是许波

I am Xu Bo.

我们在美国之音华盛顿演播室为您现场直播

We are live broadcasting for you from the Voice of America studio in Washington.

我们今天讨论的两个话题是

The two topics we are discussing today are

一 网红侮辱日本游客事件发酵

The incident of an internet celebrity insulting Japanese tourists has escalated.

中国反思民族主义

China Reflects on Nationalism

二 长着中国脸没有中国心

"Having a Chinese face but not a Chinese heart."

习近平在警告中国教育

Xi Jinping warns about Chinese education.

我们欢迎观众朋友们

We welcome our audience friends.

通过美国之音在YouTube上的直播聊天室

Through the live chat room of Voice of America on YouTube.

跟我们互动

Interact with us.

向嘉宾提问

Ask the guest a question

或者是发表您的看法

Or express your opinion.

下面我们就开始第一个话题

Now let's start the first topic.

网红侮辱日本游客事件发酵

The incident of an internet celebrity insulting Japanese tourists is escalating.

中国反思民族主义

China's Reflection on Nationalism

中国网红亚仁

China's internet celebrity Yaren

日前发视频炫耀

Recently posted a video to show off.

他在北京圆明园斥责一名

He reprimanded a person at the Old Summer Palace in Beijing.

请求为日本游客让位拍照的中国导游

A Chinese tour guide requests to give way for Japanese tourists to take photos.

骂他是卖国贼

Curse him as a traitor.

保安也表示支持

The security personnel also expressed support.

声称就不应该日本人进入

It is claimed that Japanese people should not enter.

这段视频

This video

在自媒体平台引发热议

Provoked heated discussions on social media platforms.

网友不仅指责亚人盲目排外

Netizens not only accused the young people of blindly being exclusionary.

还扒出了他早年在美国留学期间的犯罪记录

They also uncovered his criminal record from his early years studying in the United States.

中国外交部发言人称

A spokesperson for the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated

这是网红的个人言行

This is the personal behavior and remarks of an internet celebrity.

中国不会针对任何特定国家

China will not target any specific country.

采取歧视性做法

Adopt discriminatory practices.

人民日报旗下环球人物发文指责

The Global People, a publication under the People's Daily, published an article criticizing.

称民族大义不是流量密码

Claiming national righteousness is not a traffic code.

盲目排外

Blindly excluding outsiders.

在我国没有土壤

There is no soil in our country.

那是什么意思呢

What does that mean?

那么中国为何屡次出现针对特定国家的仇外言行

So why does China repeatedly see xenophobic remarks and actions directed at specific countries?

盲目仇视日本如何产生反世效应

How blind hatred towards Japan creates counterproductive effects.

北京该如何反思民族主义的心态呢

How should Beijing reflect on its nationalist mentality?

讨论这个话题为您邀请到的两位嘉宾

The two guests invited to discuss this topic.

中国战略分析智库研究员邓玉文

Deng Yuwen, a researcher at the China Strategic Analysis Think Tank.

邓先生您好

Hello, Mr. Deng.

大家好

Hello everyone.

日本东京大学访问研究员潘家伟

Visiting researcher Pan Jiawei from the University of Tokyo, Japan.

潘先生您好

Hello, Mr. Pan.

徐先生好

Hello, Mr. Xu.

我们欢迎观众朋友们

We welcome our audience friends.

在收看我们节目的同时呢

While watching our program,

踊跃参加讨论

Enthusiastically participate in the discussion.

我们将在讨论过程中

We will during the discussion.

选用您的问题和评论

Select your questions and comments.

节目开始之前呢

Before the program starts.

我们先看一段自由亚洲

Let's first look at a segment from Radio Free Asia.

节选自推特平台上的视频

Excerpt from a video on the Twitter platform.

国家人没有关系的

National people have no relationship.

没有关系吗

Is it okay?

我觉得有关系

I think it matters.

那你觉得有关系就算了

If you think it matters, then so be it.

OK OK

OK OK

你作为中国人

As a Chinese person.

你不要给日本人的地方

Don't give it to the Japanese people.

我就不让你懂吗

I just won't let you understand, will I?

就不让

Just don't let it.

差不多玩完就得了

Just about done playing is enough.

不要

No.

日本人在中国多久

How long have the Japanese been in China?

我这有工啊

I have work here.

日本在中国

Japan in China

说白了

To put it bluntly.

不让进来

Not allowed to enter.

那您要说这个也有点

Then you have to say this is also a bit...

您认识管理处的意见吗

Do you know the opinions of the management office?

那有点不对吧

That's a bit off, isn't it?

因为去年啊

Because of last year, ah.

整个一个团队

The whole team.

整个一个一个团队

The whole team.

就没让进

So they were not allowed in.

人家大家该买票买票买

Everyone should buy tickets.

既然买票管理处让进来了

Since the ticket office has allowed entry.

您代表管理处的意见

You represent the opinions of the management office.

首先我不太了解你提到的具体情况

First of all, I don't quite understand the specific situation you mentioned.

对于个人的言行我也不做评论

I do not comment on individual words and actions.

但是我可以告诉你的是

But what I can tell you is

中国是一个开放包容的国家

China is an open and inclusive country.

我们不会针对任何特定的国家

We do not target any specific country.

采取歧视性的做法

Adopt discriminatory practices.

好的我们看到这位取名亚人的

Alright, we see this person named Yaren.

中国网红呢

Chinese internet celebrity.

他本想通过炫耀

He originally wanted to show off.

其民族大义

Its national righteousness.

来蹭热度

To capitalize on the popularity.

增加知名度

Increase visibility.

不想呢

I don't want to.

他弄巧成拙

He made a fool of himself.

不但遭到包括这个官方媒体的舆论非议

Not only has it faced public criticism from this official media.

还被人扒出他在美国留学时的

It has also been revealed that during his study abroad in the United States...

犯罪记录

Criminal record

那这回他是大大的出名

Then this time he is greatly famous.

风光了一次

Had a grand time once.

我来请教纽约邓宇文先生啊

I am here to consult Mr. Deng Yuwen from New York.

您怎么看这位网红以及他

What do you think of this internet celebrity and him?

所引发的这个舆情呢

The public opinion sparked by this.

我认为官媒批判了

I believe the official media has criticized.

是这位

It is this person.

所以说

So, it can be said that.

这个网红

This internet celebrity.

他也做得不像是

He doesn't seem to do it either.

那个

That one.

苏联

Soviet Union

这个网红

This internet celebrity.

他已经被亚人做得太测了

He has been overly tested by the half-human.

已经跟炫耀这个民族

Already boasting this nation.

大义

Great righteousness

无关

Irrelevant.

基本上在我看来他就是一个街头

Basically, in my opinion, he is just a street person.

这个颇必无赖的这样一个角色

This pretty much unavoidable role.

中国当局

Chinese authorities

虽然倡导和鼓动这个民族主义呀

Although it advocates and incites this nationalism.

挑动民众的这种民族情感

This kind of nationalism incites the emotions of the masses.

诉诸民族大义

Appeal to national righteousness.

但是他肯定也不愿意看到民众

But he definitely wouldn’t want to see the public either.

以这样一种方式去爱国

To love the country in such a way.

上去罵人家 表演他的民族大義

Go up and curse at others, showing off his sense of national righteousness.

官方還可以為他辯解說是四居有因

The official can also argue on his behalf that it was a matter of four circumstances.

但是人家是好端端的在義和園走路

But they were just walking peacefully in the Yiheyuan (Summer Palace).

欣賞風景 就因為他是日本人

Appreciating the scenery is simply because he is Japanese.

你就無端的罵人家 罵那個翻譯

You just randomly curse at others, cursing that translator.

無論是多麼的慷慨這樣

No matter how generous it is like this.

實際上就是少出一個

In fact, it's just one less.

他不是在張揚國威

He is not showcasing national prestige.

而是在敗壞中國的形象

But rather it is damaging China's image.

想想看這個雅人的這樣一副醜菜

Think about how this elegant person's dish looks so ugly.

全部出去的話

If everyone goes out.

日本國民以及其他國家的民眾

Japanese citizens and people from other countries.

是怎麼看待中國和中國人的

How do you view China and the Chinese people?

肯定認為是沒有素質的一個國家

I firmly believe it is a country lacking quality.

是一個沒有素質的國民

It is a nation of unqualified citizens.

那麼如果官方連這種行為都容忍

Then if the authorities tolerate even this kind of behavior...

甚至都鼓勵以後隨便一個中國人

It even encourages any Chinese person in the future.

看到大街上的日本人

Seeing the Japanese people on the street

或者看到大街上的美國人

Or see Americans on the street.

得罪就罵了 那誰還敢來中國了

If you offend someone, you get scolded. Who would dare to come to China then?

所以講 即便是對自己的人民

So it can be said that even towards one's own people

最不講理的中國政府

The most unreasonable Chinese government.

但面對雅人的這種行為

But in the face of Ya Ren's behavior

其實他也是要有最基本的理性的

In fact, he also needs to have the most basic rationality.

不能為他去辯護 更不能去鼓勵的

Cannot defend him, and even more cannot encourage him.

所以講這種事情被曝光出來

So speaking of such matters being exposed.

只好雅人的新聞受到官方的批評

Zhihao Yaren's news has been criticized by the authorities.

我認為是在預料之中的

I think it was to be expected.

好的 那麼有一位日本記者

Alright, then there is a Japanese journalist.

就這個問題向外交部發言人發問

Ask the spokesperson of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs about this issue.

說中國外交部發言人

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson said.

我們剛才看到這個視頻

We just watched this video.

他稱這是網紅的個人言行

He calls this the personal behavior of an internet celebrity.

但是我們切不論

But we won't discuss it.

文訊趕來的那位

The one who rushed to deliver the news.

公園保安也支持這位網紅

The park security also supports this internet celebrity.

發表了更加露骨的歧視言論

Made more blatant discriminatory remarks.

不久前 另一位中國網紅叫鐵頭

Not long ago, another Chinese internet celebrity called Tietou.

他在日本靖國神社的這個所作所為

His actions at the Yasukuni Shrine in Japan.

也在日中兩國之間引發了巨大的輿情

It has also sparked significant public opinion between Japan and China.

我請教日本潘家偉先生

I consulted Mr. Pan Jiawei from Japan.

這個中國人的反日情緒

The anti-Japanese sentiment of this Chinese person.

您覺得是不是個別現象

Do you think it is an individual phenomenon?

您周圍的日本人怎麼看這個問題呢

What do the Japanese people around you think about this issue?

其實當然要看是什麼年級的日本人

It really depends on what grade level of Japanese person it is.

但我認識的也有不同年級的

But I also know people from different grades.

我看如果是很年輕的

I think if it's very young.

其實根本第一沒有多少了解中國

In fact, there is basically very little understanding of China.

然後更談不上他們對於中國的那些

Then it is even more impossible to talk about their views on China.

過去的一些什麼跟軍國主義有關的

Some past events related to militarism.

在侵略中國的那個年代

In the era of invading China.

根本因為他們對於歷史

Simply because they have a different understanding of history.

對他們來講是沒什麼太大意義的

It doesn't mean much to them.

已經是非常久之前的事

It has been a very long time ago.

所以年輕一代他只不過是

So for the younger generation, he is just...

把中國看成是另外一個附近的國家

View China as another neighboring country.

然後有很多 他們也都看到有中國人來日本打工

Then there were many who also saw Chinese people coming to Japan to work.

可以做商業 買房子這樣的

Can do business and buy houses like this.

但是其實一般來說

But actually, generally speaking,

有很多中國人自己聚聚

Many Chinese people gather together.

在一些特定的一些

In some specific cases.

所以一般的日本人其實也沒有太明白 太了解

So generally, ordinary Japanese people don't really understand it too well.

但是最近的話

But recently...

除了你剛才提到的鐵頭事情

Besides the matter of the "Iron Head" that you just mentioned.

也有最近在這個瀉谷那邊的話

There has also been talk recently about this valley over there.

也有一個中國的年輕人

There is also a young person from China.

19歲的 他也用刀來去砍一個日本的女孩子

At 19, he also used a knife to attack a Japanese girl.

所以那個事情其實也引起非常多的討論

So that matter has actually sparked a lot of discussion.

其實究竟現在這一代的中國人

Actually, what about this generation of Chinese people now?

他們是怎麼去看日本的

How do they view Japan?

如果好奇怪

If it's strange.

其實在日本的生活的中國人也真的不少

In fact, there are quite a few Chinese people living in Japan.

有幾十萬到一百萬差不多

It's about several hundred thousand to a million.

但是就一直以來的表現態度

But it has always been the performance attitude.

甚至非常抗拒

Even very resistant.

現在這樣的一些出來的

Some things are coming out like this now.

他們只不過是一些遊客去旅遊

They are just some tourists traveling.

這樣的一個態度裡表現出來的

Such an attitude is expressed in this way.

我真的覺得是不是為了流量

I really wonder if it's for the traffic.

所有這些最基本的理由

All these most fundamental reasons.

最基本的文明都完全沒有了

The most basic civilization has completely disappeared.

所以我看這個事情是變成是越來越複雜

So I see this matter is becoming increasingly complicated.

是把日本人跟中國人的關係

It is about the relationship between Japanese and Chinese people.

原來其實這十年二十年

In fact, these past ten to twenty years...

我覺得原來沒有傷那麼嚴重的

I think the injury wasn't as severe as I originally thought.

但是我覺得現在日本人的話

But I think what the Japanese people say now...

年輕一代可能他們也都會再想想究竟

The younger generation may also reconsider what it really means.

中國人是什麼一回事

What is it to be Chinese?

好的 我們剛才兩位嘉賓發表了

Okay, our two guests have just spoken.

他們對這個問題的看法

Their views on this issue.

現在我們來看一看網友們的意見

Now let's take a look at the opinions of netizens.

一位叫屍骨無皮

A person named Corpse with No Skin.

這位網友他在回應我們這期節目

This netizen is responding to our episode.

昨天發表在推特上的這個節目預告的時候

When the trailer for this program was released on Twitter yesterday

發表了下列的看法

Expressed the following opinions.

他說 中國網紅在圓明園驅逐日本遊客

He said that Chinese influencers expelled Japanese tourists from the Summer Palace.

外交部說是個人行為

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated it is a personal act.

毛寧說 中國是一個開放包容的國家

Mao Ning said that China is an open and inclusive country.

我們不會針對任何特定國家採取歧視性做法

We will not adopt discriminatory practices against any specific country.

那他在證實

Then he is confirming.

中國是一個包容的國家

China is an inclusive country.

只會對任何國家採取普遍的歧視性做法

Will only adopt universally discriminatory practices against any country.

另外一位叫達案

Another person is called Da'an.

說中共想傳遞的是網紅排外事件

The Chinese Communist Party wants to convey the event of internet celebrities being exclusionary.

是一個個人行為

It is an individual act.

與中共沒有關係

Unrelated to the Communist Party of China.

但之前長榮酒店國旗事件

But the previous Evergreen Hotel national flag incident.

就是由法國促統會所主導

It is led by the French Promotion and Reunification Association.

這些事件並不是民族主義

These events are not nationalism.

而是中共對內對外的輿論戰

It is rather the Chinese Communist Party's propaganda war both domestically and internationally.

我們的觀眾 我們的網友們比較關心的就是

Our audience and netizens are more concerned about

這究竟是不是一個像中國外交部發言人毛寧所說的

Is this really what the spokesperson of the Chinese Foreign Ministry, Mao Ning, said?

是一個個人行為

It is an individual behavior.

我想請兩位嘉賓就這個問題也發表一點看法

I would like to ask both guests to share their views on this issue as well.

首先我來請問鄧先生

First, let me ask Mr. Deng.

您覺得這是一個個人 簡要談談就可以

Do you think this is a personal matter? A brief discussion would be fine.

您覺得這種行為是中國人的個人行為嗎

Do you think this behavior is an individual action of Chinese people?

我認為是

I think it is.

這個行為是一個個人行為

This behavior is an individual action.

但是個人行為的背後

But behind individual behavior

它是有這麼多年來中國政府所一直灌輸的這樣一個民族主義

It is a kind of nationalism that has been instilled by the Chinese government for many years.

甚至說是針對日本的這個長年累月的這樣一個批評

It can even be said that this is a long-standing criticism aimed at Japan.

所導致的這樣一個自然的反應

A natural reaction caused by this.

好的 那麼日本的潘先生

Alright, then Mr. Pan from Japan.

您怎麼看這個問題 日本人怎麼看這個問題

What is your perspective on this issue, and how do the Japanese view this issue?

現在剛才您講到了

You just mentioned now.

在日本的中國遊客也做出

Chinese tourists in Japan are also making contributions.

許多類似的這樣的行為

Many similar behaviors like this.

那麼日本人在中國也遇到了這樣的行為

Then the Japanese also encountered such behavior in China.

日本人怎麼看這個問題

How do the Japanese view this issue?

是不是中國人的個人行為呢

Is it the personal behavior of a Chinese person?

當然我覺得

Of course, I think.

這也牽涉到是有個人行為在裡面

This also involves some personal behavior in it.

但是整個也都有反映的就是說

However, what has been reflected overall is that...

這一代除了是起碼就是

This generation is at least...

我們看到就會對待日本人這樣一個態度的

We will have this attitude towards the Japanese.

也不但是一兩個案例

It's not just one or two cases.

是挺多的案例嘛

There are quite a few cases.

所以政府其實我覺得也不能說是態度

So I think the government really can't be said to have an attitude.

只是說退縮

Just say retreat.

只是個別的人這樣的

It's just a few individuals like this.

然後都沒有解決問題的一個態度

Then there was an attitude of not solving the problem at all.

我覺得這個是不負責任的

I think this is irresponsible.

也不會說換過來的

It won't be said to have been switched back.

如果是在日本那邊的

If it's over in Japan.

就是真的有歧視中國人的態度很明顯出現的時候

When there is a clear attitude of discrimination against Chinese people.

或是在中國有日本人歧視中國人這樣的反過來的

Or there are Japanese people in China who discriminate against Chinese people in this reverse manner.

有沒有可能會覺得

Is it possible to feel...

就是真的有歧視中國人的態度很明顯出現的時候或是在中國有日本人歧視中國人這樣的反過來的有沒有可能會覺得

It is indeed possible to feel that there is a clear attitude of discrimination against Chinese people, or that Japanese people in China may discriminate against Chinese people in a reverse manner.

就是真的有歧視中國人的態度很明顯出現的時候或是在中國有日本人歧視中國人的態度很明顯出現的時候

When there is a clear attitude of discrimination against Chinese people, or when there is a clear attitude of discrimination against Chinese people by Japanese people in China.

因為日本政府反過來說只是個別的事情

Because the Japanese government responded by saying it is just an individual matter.

所以他們不管

So they don't care.

我覺得不但是可以這樣的去退縮就算了

I think it's not just a matter of retreating like this and letting it go.

也都說明了整個社會的氛圍

It also explains the overall atmosphere of society.

你是武力或者是你縱容這樣的去有歧視的一個態度

Are you using force, or are you condoning such a discriminatory attitude?

這樣的話你作為政府就應該要去做一些事情來去改變

In that case, as the government, you should take action to make some changes.

好

Good.

我們看到人民日報旗下的網站

We see the website under the People's Daily.

環球人物就發表了

Global People has published.

評論文章痛斥民族大義不是流量密碼

The commentary article criticizes the idea that national righteousness is not a clickbait topic.

流量密碼對不起啊

Traffic password, I'm sorry.

盲目排外呢在我國沒有土壤

Blind exclusion has no soil in our country.

那麼果真是這樣的嗎

Is it really like that?

請教鄧先生您怎麼看官媒的輿論導向

May I ask Mr. Deng what you think about the propaganda direction of state media?

中國官方是不是現在已經開始反思這個民族主義了

Has the Chinese government started to reflect on this nationalism now?

呃我認為這個官媒的反應和官方可能還不是同一回事

Uh, I think the response from the official media may not be the same as the government's.

為什麼這麼講呢

Why do you say that?

我們講雖然現在官方把媒體管得很實

Although the authorities are currently controlling the media very strictly.

在報導上要聽從官方的安排和要求

In reporting, one must follow the official arrangements and requirements.

但是在很多的官媒啊

But in many official media outlets...

他們的編輯記者有自己的看法

Their editorial reporters have their own opinions.

並不是事事都要去迎合官方

Not everything needs to cater to the authorities.

所以講在這個事情上有些媒體編輯記者

So it's said that some media editors and reporters are involved in this matter.

他可能就看不慣亞聯的這種行為

He probably can't stand this kind of behavior from the UAE.

碰撇他

Bump him off.

但是這並不等於官方就要對這個我們講

But this does not mean that the authorities have to address what we have said.

過度的鼓吹民族主義有所反思

Excessive promotion of nationalism requires reflection.

因為官方

Because of the official.

就像這個外交部發言人講的

Just like what this spokesperson from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said.

他會把這個事情作為一個特殊的個案來對待

He will treat this matter as a special case.

是個人行為

It is a personal behavior.

從官方的這個角度來考慮啊

From the official perspective, considering this...

在中共的一些神態無法說服民眾的這樣一個情況之下

Under such circumstances where the demeanor of the CCP cannot convince the public.

再加上現在中國和美國中國西方的這樣一種對抗

Moreover, there is currently a confrontation between China and the West, particularly the United States.

還必須用民族主義去來維繫民眾的這個團結和國家的統一

It is also necessary to use nationalism to maintain the unity of the people and the integrity of the nation.

這一點在未來很將是一期都不會削弱

This point will not weaken at all in the future.

所以從整體上來講啊

So overall speaking,

官方還是會留意到呢

The authorities will still pay attention to it.

對農民的民族主義不好的一方面

One negative aspect of nationalism for farmers.

但是通過這個案例啦

But through this case.

他也可能確實會對民眾中那種表演過分

He might indeed show excessive performance to the public.

那種帶有非常強烈表演性質為了流量的這樣一種行為啊

Such behavior that has a very strong performative nature in order to gain views.

已經連中國人都不滿的就是某種行為啊

What is already causing dissatisfaction even among Chinese people is a certain behavior.

進行一個約束和敲打

Conduct a restraint and a knock.

這個是有可能的

This is possible.

好的那麼人們常說呢

Alright, so people often say that.

說民族主義是一把雙刃劍

Saying that nationalism is a double-edged sword.

其反噬效果是不容忽視的

Its backlash effect cannot be ignored.

中國現在我們知道他目前

China, now we know its current situation.

是急於穩定外資來華

It is urgent to stabilize foreign investment in China.

穩定外國人包括遊客來華

Stabilizing foreign visitors, including tourists, coming to China.

不是前不久這個片面宣布

It was not recently this one-sided announcement.

對世界上許多國家這個就是說免簽證

This means visa-free for many countries in the world.

免簽證來華旅遊

Visa-free travel to China.

那麼正如環球人物所說啊

Well, as the Globe and Mail says.

讓包括日本遊客在內的大批外國遊客

Allow a large number of foreign tourists, including Japanese visitors.

來親自感受到中國的開放與親和

Come and personally experience China's openness and friendliness.

以達到讓外國人稱讚中國社會既安全又自由

To achieve the goal of having foreigners praise Chinese society as both safe and free.

中國人很熱情樂於助人

Chinese people are warm and willing to help.

交通便利啊移動支付發達生活便捷

Transportation is convenient, mobile payment is advanced, and life is easy.

這樣呢英美澳媒體對於中國的濾鏡式報導就不攻自破了

In this way, the filtered reports from the media in the UK, US, and Australia regarding China will collapse on their own.

就會達到這樣一個效果

It will achieve such an effect.

那麼我來請教潘先生

Then I would like to ask Mr. Pan.

有人說網紅亞人呢

Some people say the internet celebrity is a young person.

他用民族大義這把雙刃劍反傷到中國自己

He used the double-edged sword of national justice to hurt China itself.

這才引起關注呢

This has attracted attention.

關媒的憤怒

The anger of the media.

您看是不是這樣

Do you think it's like this?

我覺得也會真的引起一些日本人的反感啊

I think it will really cause some resentment among the Japanese people.

他們又會啊

They can do it again.

會不會有減少有一些人啊

Will there be a reduction in some people?

可能啊不會再去中國旅遊了

Maybe I won't travel to China again.

啊我相信還會有影響一些的啊

Ah, I believe it will still have some impact.

然後啊你說我說有沒有會影響有一些人去做生意啊

Then you asked me if it would affect some people in doing business.

或者是這樣的交流啊

Or maybe it's communication like this.

其實

Actually

在過去幾年呢

In the past few years, right?

我們也看到新聞呢有一些去中國做生意的

We also see in the news that there are some who go to China to do business.

或者是中國去交流的

Or it could be that China is engaging in communication.

也有曾經過是被抓的啊

There have also been times when I was caught.

所以呢我我相信這樣的一些案例

So I believe that such cases exist.

再加上現在一個態度加起來的話

Moreover, combining it with the current attitude...

其實呢也沒有讓外界感覺到啊

Actually, it didn't really make the outside world feel anything.

就是一定會有繼續有很多日本人會感興趣去

There will definitely continue to be many Japanese people who will be interested in going.

不一定啊我自首

Not necessarily, I confess.

我覺得我身邊的一些越來越關心中國人權問題的日本人啊

I feel that some of the Japanese people around me are increasingly concerned about human rights issues in China.

不一定啊我自首我覺得我身邊的一些越來越關心中國人權問題的日本人啊

It’s not certain. I admit that some Japanese people around me are becoming increasingly concerned about human rights issues in China.

他们也都在网上经常发表很多言论

They often make a lot of comments online as well.

所以我觉得这个态度会引起一些日本人的反感

So I think this attitude will provoke some Japanese people's dislike.

对中国的现在的态度也都越来越反感

The current attitude towards China is becoming increasingly negative.

然后我们也都有跟一些日本人分享关于香港的问题

Then we also shared the issues about Hong Kong with some Japanese people.

他们也是觉得对于中国这样的去对待香港

They also feel that this is how China should treat Hong Kong.

也是非常非常糟糕的一个情况

It is also a very, very bad situation.

所以对于很多日本人来讲的话

So for many Japanese people,

对中国没有商业前

No business prospects in China.

可能在之前的一些比较正面的一个看法

Perhaps a more positive perspective previously.

有可能现在已经变成是有点负面了

It is possible that it has become a bit negative now.

那么潘先生我有个跟进问题

Mr. Pan, I have a follow-up question.

您在日本您了解日本国民对中国的看法

Do you understand the views of the Japanese people towards China while you're in Japan?

您觉得这一次亚人在圆明园歧视日本人的这种做法

What do you think about the recent behavior of Asians discriminating against Japanese people at the Summer Palace?

您觉得会在日本游客当中引起什么样的反应

What kind of reaction do you think it will provoke among tourists in Japan?

对于日本游客去中国旅游会有什么样的影响呢

What impact will there be on Japanese tourists traveling to China?

我觉得有一些原来可能没有很关心政治的日本人

I think there are some Japanese people who may not have been very politically engaged before.

因为一般其实日本人挺政治难感的

Because generally, the Japanese are quite politically apathetic.

就是坦白说他们也没有太对于政治很感兴趣

To be frank, they are not very interested in politics either.

但是对于现在这个事情也会引起多一次

But this situation will also lead to another occurrence.

上一次铁头的那个事情已经引起很大的讨论

The last incident with Tie Tou has already sparked a lot of discussion.

然后我们也有一个很大的反应

Then we also had a very large reaction.

我刚才提的在有那个中国人去看那个日本的女孩子

The Chinese person I mentioned just now went to see that Japanese girl.

也是非常反感

Also very disgusted.

再加上这个我相信的话也会有引起一大批的日本人

In addition to this, I believe it will also attract a large number of Japanese people.

起码他们不会觉得在去中国旅游有多大的一个展秀

At least they won't feel that going to China for tourism is a big event.

所以他们绝对在朋友之间

So they are definitely among friends.

在网络上面越来越多的讨论会觉得不要去中国了

There is increasing discussion online suggesting that one should not go to China anymore.

好的那么这可能是呢

Okay, so this might be it.

这可能是中国官媒以及中国官方在这个问题上

This may be the stance of Chinese state media and the Chinese authorities on this issue.

这个对亚人这样的网红提出谴责的一个主要原因

One of the main reasons for condemning internet celebrities like Yaren.

我们再来看一下网友们的看法

Let's take another look at what netizens have to say.

一位叫柴道个2023这位网友他说

A netizen named Chai Daoge in 2023 said.

中共现在面对是国内经济全面崩溃

The Chinese Communist Party is currently facing a complete collapse of the domestic economy.

不得不重新转向重提对外开放

We have to redirect our focus to the issue of opening up to the outside world again.

试图引进外国资本来救市

Attempting to introduce foreign capital to rescue the market.

这个时候这些网红战狼们

At this time, these internet-famous战狼 (wolf warriors)

继续各种疯狂的表演就很不合时宜了

Continuing various crazy performances would be quite inappropriate.

只是中共把义和团煽动起来

It was just the Communist Party that incited the Boxer Movement.

现在想要收放自如再压制下去就不那么容易了

Now it's not so easy to suppress it further if one wants to control it freely.

另外一位叫塞地他说反思个毛

Another person named Sedi said, "What kind of reflection is that?"

说民族主义是一把双刃剑

To say that nationalism is a double-edged sword.

中共呢只是在控制他达到自己的目的

The Communist Party is just controlling him to achieve its own goals.

需要的时候加把柴不需要的时候泼瓢水

Add fuel when needed, and pour water when not needed.

我们下面的讨论呢

Our discussion below.

我们可能会涉及到这个问题

We may involve this issue.

就是说民族主义是中共想要的时候就要

It means that nationalism is something the Communist Party wants whenever it suits them.

不想要的时候他会

He will when he doesn't want it.

就是说刚才我们那网友说的

That is what the netizen just said.

需要的时候加把柴不需要的时候泼瓢水

Add more firewood when needed, and pour water when not needed.

我们来讨论一下这个问题

Let's discuss this issue.

网红们盲目排外一方面呢

Internet celebrities blindly exclude others on one hand.

引起了包括官方舆论的愤慨和声讨

It has caused outrage and condemnation, including from official public opinion.

但另一方面在自媒体上

But on the other hand, on social media platforms

引起大量中国网民的叫好

It has garnered widespread applause from many Chinese internet users.

许多网友们呢

Many netizens.

很多网民表示强烈支持这位网红

Many netizens expressed strong support for this internet celebrity.

日本人在中国就是不受欢迎

Japanese people are not popular in China.

不能惯着他们

Can't indulge them.

有人说中日是宿敌

Some people say that China and Japan are archrivals.

中国人对于日本人的敌视是历史造成的

The hostility of the Chinese towards the Japanese is caused by history.

那么来请教邓先生

Then let's consult Mr. Deng.

您怎么看这个问题

What do you think about this issue?

中国人对日本人的敌视

Chinese people's hostility towards the Japanese.

您认为是历史原因呢

Do you think it is due to historical reasons?

还是现实原因呢

Is it still due to practical reasons?

我认为两方面都有啊

I think there are aspects on both sides.

就历史上来讲啊

Historically speaking.

很多人认为啊

Many people believe that

这个近代对中国造成最大的历史原因

The biggest historical reason that has impacted China in modern times.

就是日本建国之后

It was after the founding of Japan.

中国石油历史的距离

The distance of the history of China National Petroleum.

一个是日本

One is Japan.

另外一个是俄国

The other one is Russia.

这个俄国我们不讲啊

We don't talk about this Russia.

不是我们讨论的这个议题

This is not the topic we are discussing.

那么对日本来讲

So for Japan,

从九一八到卢高桥

From September 18 to Lugouqiao.

再到八年清华战争

Back to the Eight-Year War of Tsinghua.

杀死了那么多中国人

Killed so many Chinese people.

但是日本政府啊

But the Japanese government...

以及大部分的这个日本民众

As well as the majority of the Japanese public.

没有对中国建省这样一个赔罪和道歉

There has been no apology or compensation for the establishment of provinces in China.

他们的政治人物还动不动参拜建国行事

Their political figures often pay visits to commemorate the founding events.

这就很

This is very...

那么有人当然会把它归咎于是中国政府

Then some people will certainly blame it on the Chinese government.

片面的向民众灌输日本的清华历史

Unilaterally indoctrinating the public with the historical narrative of Japan.

日本人对这种行为也有自己的解释

The Japanese also have their own explanation for this behavior.

但是如果把日本和德国比较起来

But if we compare Japan and Germany.

确实会发生日本在处理过去的那段历史的时候

Indeed, it will happen that Japan addresses that period of history in the past.

做的我觉得不是很妥当

I don't think it's done very appropriately.

这是从历史角度来讲

This is from a historical perspective.

也是引起中国人反感的一个因素

It is also a factor that causes resentment among the Chinese people.

而从现实来讲

From a real-world perspective

除了日本政治人物参拜靖国神社之外

Aside from Japanese political figures visiting the Yasukuni Shrine,

中日的钓鱼岛的争端

The dispute over the Diaoyu Islands between China and Japan.

以及近几年日本追寻美国围堵中国

In recent years, Japan has been pursuing the United States' strategy of containing China.

是一个更大的因素

It is a larger factor.

尤其是日本在围堵中国这点

Especially Japan's encirclement of China.

有些在中国人看来做得比美国还过分

Some things seem more excessive to Chinese people than to Americans.

让很多中国人感觉不满

Making many Chinese people feel dissatisfied.

那么这些因素再加上中国政府有意的去鼓励众农

So these factors, coupled with the Chinese government's intention to encourage various farmers,

甚至放纵民间的这种反日的情绪

Even indulging the anti-Japanese sentiment among the public.

所以也就造成了

So it has also caused.

而且亚人这种现象的这种出现

Moreover, the emergence of such phenomena as "Ajin"

这是我对这个世界的这样一个看法

This is my perspective on this world.

好的 那么邓先生我也有一个跟进的问题

Okay, Mr. Deng, I also have a follow-up question.

您说历史因素扮演了很大的角色

You said that historical factors played a significant role.

在现在中日关系不断交恶的情况下

In the current situation where Sino-Japanese relations are continuously deteriorating.

但是有人指出

But some people pointed out

历史因素随着这个时代

Historical factors with the era.

随着中国政策的需要

In response to the needs of China's policies.

可能它起的作用有时候大有时候小

Its role may sometimes be significant and other times small.

比如有人提出

For example, someone suggests.

中国的八十年代

China in the 1980s

在胡赵的时候

During the time of Hu Zhao.

就是胡耀邦

It's Hu Yaobang.

赵紫阳主政那个时候

During the time Zhao Ziyang was in power.

中国和日本的关系很好

The relationship between China and Japan is very good.

历史因素还是摆在那

The historical factors are still there.

您怎么解释这个现象

How do you explain this phenomenon?

历史因素到了它是一个潜在的因素

Historical factors have become a potential factor.

它是中国政府的这样一个对日政策的这个调整

It is such an adjustment of the Chinese government's policy towards Japan.

但是这个

But this

进一步那个因素它是潜在的

Further, that factor is potential.

藏在那儿所以它不会消失

Hidden there so it won't disappear.

一旦就是说整个中国的政策是这样的

In other words, the entire policy of China is like this.

中国的环境变了

China's environment has changed.

再加上中国政府有意引导上另外一个方面

In addition, the Chinese government intends to guide another aspect.

那么民众自然就会对

Then the public will naturally...

日本的一个看法起一个负面的

A perspective from Japan has a negative connotation.

所以讲这种东西

So talking about such things

它并不表示说

It does not mean that.

因为中国政府好

Because the Chinese government is good.

因为中国政府对日本不好

Because the Chinese government has a poor relationship with Japan.

所以那个因素就消失不见了

So that factor has disappeared.

它是有时候会强化有时候弱化

It sometimes strengthens and sometimes weakens.

但是就是存在着

But it does exist.

但是如果我们讲

But if we talk about...

日本比如讲在清华这件事情上

In Japan, for example, regarding this matter at Tsinghua University.

如果就像我刚刚在前面讲的

If it's just like I mentioned earlier.

你和德国比较起来如果像德国那样的话

If you compare yourself to Germany, it would be like Germany.

那我讲可能在中国

Then I might be talking about China.

无论是中国政府怎么去煽动民主主义

No matter how the Chinese government stirs up democracy.

怎么去煽动对日本人的这种不满的话

How to incite such dissatisfaction towards the Japanese?

民众自然会

The public will naturally.

比现代应该来讲我觉得会

I think it should be better than modern times.

对日本的看法表现的进一步

Further expression of views on Japan.

同样的我们可以从另外一个看

Similarly, we can look at it from another perspective.

虽然中国政府就是

Although the Chinese government is

现在中日官时报但是其另一个立场的人比如讲

Now the official media of China and Japan are in agreement, but there are those with differing views, for example.

其自由主义立场的人

People with a liberal stance

我的很多朋友都已经移民

Many of my friends have already immigrated.

或者到日本去了

Or maybe went to Japan.

他们就对日本还是很有好感

They still have a good impression of Japan.

所以这个东西我认为就是说

So I think this thing means that...

它一方面跟中国政府有关

On one hand, it is related to the Chinese government.

但是另一个方面确确实实是

But on the other hand, it is indeed true that...

这个律师因素是存在的

This lawyer factor exists.

你不能抹杀这个因素

You cannot erase this factor.

好的

Okay.

一位叫大野人的这个网友

A netizen named Daya Ren.

他发表了下来的看法

He expressed his views.

他说

He said.

此事彰显中国人的文明程度

This matter demonstrates the level of civilization of the Chinese people.

要高日本人至少一个数量级

To be at least one order of magnitude higher than the Japanese.

为什么呢

Why?

他说中国一位人

He said a person from China.

为网红骚扰日本游客一次

Harassing Japanese tourists for internet fame once.

被从官媒到反贼网红

From state media to anti-establishment internet celebrity.

齐声声讨

Joint condemnation

中国社交平台更将其

Chinese social platforms will further...

禁言

Muted

说日本网红在奈良

Japanese internet celebrities are in Nara.

天天骚扰中国游客

Harassing Chinese tourists every day.

全体日本人民日本媒体日本官方

All the Japanese people, Japanese media, and Japanese officials.

在一边看戏

Watching a play from the side.

网红更是不遗余力的加以鼓励

The internet celebrities spare no effort in providing encouragement.

两个都是罪犯

Both are criminals.

差别竟然如此之大

The difference is surprisingly so great.

骇人听闻

Shocking.

我们这位

This person of ours

网友呢指出

Netizens pointed out.

不只是

Not just

中国国民歧视日本游客

Chinese nationals discriminate against Japanese tourists.

日本国民也歧视中国游客

Japanese nationals also discriminate against Chinese tourists.

有没有这么回事

Is there such a thing?

我们来下面看一下啊

Let's take a look down here.

中国官方和民间的舆论认为

Both official and public opinion in China believe that

日本官方刚才像邓先生讲的那样

The Japanese officials just spoke to Mr. Deng as mentioned.

日本官方和民间在历史清华战争这个问题上

The Japanese government and the public regarding the issue of the Qinghua War in history.

没有做出深刻反省

Failed to make a deep reflection.

因此中国人才耿耿于怀不能原谅

Therefore, China cannot forgive and is deeply resentful.

我来请教潘先生

I would like to ask Mr. Pan for advice.

您怎么看这个问题

What do you think about this issue?

不久前的网红铁头事件

The recent internet celebrity Iron Head incident.

和这一次的网红亚人事件

And this time's internet-famous young person incident.

在日本和日本人中间

Between Japan and the Japanese people.

引起多大反响

Cause a huge reaction.

最后很重要的就是

Finally, what is very important is

日本人当中有没有

Are there any among the Japanese?

仇视中国人的

Anti-Chinese.

这样一种心态

This kind of mindset.

我觉得是完全不了解日本人

I think it is a complete misunderstanding of the Japanese people.

才会有这样的一个说法

That is why there is such a saying.

真的很莫名其妙我觉得

I really find it very puzzling.

你可以骂

You can curse.

这年纪大的日本人

This elderly Japanese person.

他们那一代确实是

Their generation really is.

军国主义的

Militaristic

印象下

Impression down

当时是盲目的去支持天皇

At that time, it was blindly supporting the Emperor.

然后发生了那么

Then what happened was that...

糟糕的事情

Terrible things.

有侵华

Invasion of China

也不但是侵华了

It is not only an invasion of China.

其实其他亚洲国家他们也有去侵略了

In fact, other Asian countries have also conducted invasions.

但是问题是

But the problem is

现在的我们结束的年轻一代的

The current generation we are ending.

日本人全部都是非常哀号和平的

Japanese people are all very mournful and peaceful.

他们其实也都有批评

They actually all have criticisms.

自民党的一些老一辈的他们的态度

The attitude of some of the older generation in the Liberal Democratic Party.

所以如果真的去了解

So if you really want to understand

真的去看日本的网民的说法

Really go see what the Japanese internet users are saying.

日本人本身之间的一些讨论

Some discussions among the Japanese themselves.

根本绝对不会想出来这样的一些评论

Absolutely would not come up with such comments at all.

是非常错误的

It is very wrong.

完全不了解日本

Completely do not understand Japan.

我是这样的一个看法

I have this view.

那么潘先生

So, Mr. Pan.

我的根据问题是

My question is based on

不久前我们看到在日本奈良

Not long ago we saw in Nara, Japan.

的确看到一位中国游客

Indeed, I saw a Chinese tourist.

可能对奈良的路很有名

It may be very famous for the roads in Nara.

中国的一位游客

A tourist from China.

对奈良的路

The road to Nara.

可能是做出了一些

Maybe something was done.

不是十分恰当的一个做法

Not a very appropriate practice.

但是从视频上

But from the video...

我们不知道潘先生

We do not know Mr. Pan.

您看没看那个视频

Have you seen that video?

从视频上我们看到

From the video, we can see.

这位先生

This gentleman.

中国人可能不是故意的

Chinese people may not do it on purpose.

但是他却遭到了旁边一位

But he was遭到了旁边一位.

这是日本警察也好

This is also a Japanese police officer.

还是日本网红也好

It's better to be a Japanese internet celebrity after all.

严厉的斥责

Severe reprimand.

然后这个在中国

Then this is in China.

引起了非常非常负面的影响

Caused extremely negative effects.

就是所以

That's why.

才有这样的说法

That's why there is such a saying.

就是说不仅中国人仇日

It means that not only do Chinese people have animosity towards Japan.

日本人其实也仇中

The Japanese actually harbor animosity towards China.

那您怎么看这个现象

What do you think about this phenomenon?

我觉得这个是文化的问题了

I think this is a cultural issue.

你是怎么对待

How do you treat?

因为日本人他们怎么看

Because how the Japanese see it.

看待动物

View of animals

他们觉得这些路

They think these roads

是他们的非常尊重

It is their great respect.

而且在奈良那边是非常重要的

Moreover, it is very important over there in Nara.

你这样的对待

Your treatment like this.

是一点都没有礼貌

It is totally impolite.

然后人家去要你去停止

Then someone asks you to stop.

然后语言上也没有很明白了

Then the language was not very clear either.

但是你的态度好像就觉得

But your attitude seems to suggest that...

很随便觉得可以你到去

I feel very casual about it, and I think you can go.

去了人家什么地方

Where did you go?

你就可以做什么动作

You can do what actions.

这我觉得是缺文化

I think this shows a lack of culture.

而且没有尊重

And there is no respect.

所以对于日本人来讲的话

So for the Japanese people,

你完全不尊重我们的

You have no respect for us at all.

然后他们会非常紧的一个态度

Then they will have a very tense attitude.

平常的话他们觉得可以随便的

They usually feel that it's okay to be casual.

没所谓

It doesn't matter.

但是你采取这样一个态度的时候

But when you adopt such an attitude...

人家都会觉得很尊重你

People will feel a lot of respect for you.

就觉得你不尊重我们

I just feel that you don't respect us.

然后人家就会一定要管你

Then they'll definitely want to take care of you.

是不是

Is it?

要管你的时候

When it's time to take care of you.

你们都倒过来

You all turned over.

就说人家不尊重你

Just say that others do not respect you.

歧视

Discrimination

这个是什么样的一个态度呢

What kind of attitude is this?

你是去破坏人家

You are going to destroy others.

然后对人家不礼貌

Then be rude to others.

然后人家去提你

Then someone will bring you up.

你就是说人家歧视你

You're saying that people are discriminating against you.

这样的歧视表现出来

Such discrimination manifests itself.

那就是没文化

That is simply uncultured.

我就是这样说

That's how I said it.

好

Good

节目最后呢

At the end of the program.

我们聊天室里大量的网评

A large number of online reviews in our chat room.

进来

Come in.

我给大家选读一些

I will select some for everyone to read.

然后结束我们上半场的讨论

Then we will conclude our discussion for the first half.

转入下半场

Transitioning to the second half.

一位叫玉王这位观众

A spectator named Yu Wang.

他说这是习惯性违法

He said this is habitual violation of the law.

还是单纯赚流量

Still just trying to earn traffic.

这个区别很重要

This distinction is very important.

于次郎

Yujirou

就算是表演

Even if it's a performance.

这些小粉红的仇外表演

These little pink anti-foreign performances.

就是有大量的中国人支持其流量

There are a large number of Chinese people supporting its traffic.

而这就是中国人的集体性格

And this is the collective character of the Chinese people.

与想法的展现了

Displayed thoughts.

是吧

Is that so?

是绝大多数中国人集体意志的展现

It is a manifestation of the collective will of the vast majority of Chinese people.

他们就代表着绝大多数中国人

They represent the vast majority of Chinese people.

谁都无法为他们辩解

No one can defend them.

于次郎

Yu Jilang

说中国粉红喜欢打着民族大义的旗号

It is said that Chinese pinks like to wave the banner of national righteousness.

为非作歹

Engaging in wrongdoing.

是因为集体这个概念

It is because of the concept of the collective.

可以稀释个体所应当承担的责任

It is possible to dilute the responsibility that an individual should bear.

而中国人呢

And what about the Chinese people?

只要可以不用负责时

As long as it can be done without taking responsibility.

他们就什么事都能做得出来

They can do anything.

当年红卫兵热衷于打土豪分天地

Back then, the Red Guards were keen on attacking the landlords and dividing the land.

最能说明这一切了

This best explains it all.

这个事情搞大了

This matter has gotten out of hand.

就象征性的批评一下

Just a symbolic criticism.

如果换成其他的直接抓进监狱

If it were someone else, they would be directly thrown into prison.

中共要的就是这种意识形态斗争

What the CCP wants is exactly this kind of ideological struggle.

毕竟经济搞不好

After all, the economy isn't doing well.

民生搞不好

People's livelihoods are not well managed.

人权也搞不好

Human rights are also poorly managed.

狮子先生

Mr. Lion

外交部这意思呢

What does the Ministry of Foreign Affairs mean by this?

就是鼓励个人行为

It is to encourage individual actions.

犯事了也不追究

No investigation even after committing an offense.

现在还敢来的外国人自己掂量风险

Foreigners who dare to come now should weigh the risks themselves.

后果自负

Consequences are at your own risk.

好的

Okay

我们感谢邓宇文和潘家伟

We thank Deng Yuwen and Pan Jiawei.

两位先生的专辑

The album of the two gentlemen.

谢谢大家

Thank you, everyone.

谢谢先生的精彩点评

Thank you for the wonderful comments, sir.

两位嘉宾在节目中发表的

The remarks made by the two guests during the program.

都是他们个人观点

It's all their personal opinions.

不代表美国之音

Does not represent Voice of America.

节目稍后呢

The program will be on later.

我们第二个话题是

Our second topic is

长着中国脸

Having a Chinese face.

没有中国心

No Chinese heart.

习近平在警告中国教育吗

Is Xi Jinping warning about Chinese education?

我们欢迎观众朋友们继续

We welcome the audience to continue.

踊跃收看

Eagerly watch.

并积极参与

and actively participate

好不要走开

Don't go away.

我们马上回来

We will be back soon.

2024美国大选

2024 U.S. Presidential Election

全球最大选选人

The world's largest voter.

全球最大选选人的选举是哪个呢?

Which is the largest election in the world?

全球主幕会否牵动世界局势

Will the global main curtain affect the world situation?

如何挑战美中关系

How to challenge China-U.S. relations

共和党特朗普能否重新入主白宫

Can the Republican Trump return to the White House?

哈里斯能否为民主党守住总统宝座

Can Harris keep the presidency for the Democratic Party?

国会参众两院改选两党如何激烈竞争

How the two parties fiercely compete in the congressional elections for both the House and Senate.

选战热火朝天如何识别虚假信息

How to identify false information during the heated election battle.

美国之音邀请跨党派学者为您口系选情点评政策

Voice of America invites bipartisan scholars to comment on the election situation and policies for you.

探索未来局势

Explore the future situation.

关注美国大选

Focus on the US election.

锁定美国之音

Lock in on Voice of America.

好欢迎回到美国之音的时事大家谈

Welcome back to Voice of America’s current affairs discussion.

我是许波

I am Xu Bo.

下面我们就开始讨论第二个话题

Now let's start discussing the second topic.

长着中国脸

Having a Chinese face.

美国之音

Voice of America

没有中国心

No Chinese heart.

习近平在警告中国教育

Xi Jinping is warning about Chinese education.

欢迎观众朋友们通过美国之音

Welcome, audience friends, to Voice of America.

在YouTube上的直播聊天室

Live chat room on YouTube

跟我们互动

Interact with us.

向嘉宾提问

Ask the guests a question.

或者是发表您的看法

Or you can express your opinion.

习近平日前出席全国教育大会

Xi Jinping recently attended the National Education Conference.

并发表讲话

and give a speech

最新一期的中共机关刊物求是

The latest issue of the CCP's official publication Qiushi.

发表题为为党育人

Published the article titled "Cultivating Talents for the Party"

为国育才的这样一个长文

A lengthy text on cultivating talents for the country.

回顾习近平2018年

A look back at Xi Jinping in 2018.

在全国教育大会上的讲话

Speech at the National Education Conference

发表的培养德智体美劳

Publish on cultivating moral, intellectual, physical, aesthetic, and labor skills.

全面发展的社会主义建设者和接班人的讲话

Speech of the builders and successors of socialist development in all aspects.

习近平在那一次讲话中说

In that speech, Xi Jinping said.

我们的教育必须把培养社会主义建设者

Our education must focus on cultivating builders of socialism.

和接班人作为根本任务

The fundamental task is to work with successors.

绝不能培养出一些长着中国脸

We must never cultivate people with Chinese faces.

不是中国心

Not a Chinese heart.

没有中国情

No Chinese sentiment.

缺少中国味的

Lacking a Chinese flavor.

这个社会主义破坏者和掘墓人

This socialist destroyer and grave digger.

习近平强调

Xi Jinping emphasized.

教育的失败是一种根本的失败

The failure of education is a fundamental failure.

根本性的失败

Fundamental failure.

我们绝不能犯这种历史性的错误

We must never make such a historic mistake.

那么中共党刊为何重温

So why does the CCP's party publication revisit this?

习近平对中国教育的警告

Xi Jinping's warning about Chinese education.

中国为党育人的教育概念会不会成功

Will China's education concept of nurturing talents for the Party succeed?

互联网时代

Internet era

给习近平提出的教书育人的标准

Standards for Teaching and Educating Proposed to Xi Jinping

提出了哪些挑战呢

What challenges have been raised?

我们为您邀请到的两位嘉宾

We have invited two guests for you.

仍然是中国战略分析智库研究员

Still a researcher at a Chinese strategic analysis think tank.

邓宇文和日本

Deng Yuwen and Japan

东京大学访问研究员潘家伟

Visiting researcher Pan Jiawei from the University of Tokyo

我们欢迎两位嘉宾

We welcome the two guests.

我们也欢迎观众朋友们

We also welcome our audience friends.

在收看我们节目的同时

While watching our program

踊跃参加讨论

Actively participate in the discussion.

我们将在讨论过程中

We will discuss during the process.

选用您的问题和评论

Select your questions and comments.

这两天中共又开始新的

In the past couple of days, the Chinese Communist Party has started something new again.

可能是年度的全国教育大会

It might be the annual national education conference.

习近平又在大会上讲话了

Xi Jinping spoke again at the conference.

但是我们关注的是什么呢

But what are we concerned about?

就是中共

It is the Chinese Communist Party.

重温习近平2018年在全国教育工作会议上的讲话

Revisiting Xi Jinping's speech at the National Education Work Conference in 2018.

中共党刊求是

Seeking Truth, the publication of the Chinese Communist Party.

其中说绝不能培养出一些长着中国脸

It is said that we must never cultivate some faces that look Chinese.

不是中国心

Not a Chinese heart.

没有中国情

No Chinese feelings.

缺少中国味的这个人

This person lacks the flavor of China.

这给人留下了非常非常深刻的印象

This leaves a very, very deep impression.

有人说具有鲜明的习近平的色彩

Some people say that it has a distinct flavor of Xi Jinping.

我首先来请教日本潘家伟先生

I would like to first consult Mr. Pan Jiawei from Japan.

习近平为什么要讲这样的重话

Why did Xi Jinping choose to say such serious words?

他是因何而发

What did he express his feelings about?

为何而言的呢

Why do you say that?

我看我就是不知道我这样的评论对不对

I just don't know if my comment is correct or not.

但是你看

But look.

我就是在日本生活了两年多了

I have been living in Japan for over two years.

我之前还在一年在英国生活

I lived in the UK for a year before.

非常非常多的中国人

A very, very large number of Chinese people.

其实是跑到国外来生活

Actually, it is moving abroad to live.

他这样的话其实

What he said actually...

如果对中国

If it's about China.

现在的中国有信心的

China is confident now.

为什么要跑出来

Why did you run out?

而且跑出来的就是有钱的

Moreover, what comes out is wealthy.

挺多

Quite a lot.

而且也

And also...

年轻人的也都跑出来去读书

Young people are also coming out to study.

然后去在这边打工

Then go work here.

结果是中国没有任何问题那么好的话

The result is that if China has no problems, then everything is fine.

其实哪有那么多的人会愿意

Actually, how many people would be willing?

这样的去跑到那么远的地方

Running all the way to such a distant place.

去学新的语言

Go learn a new language.

在新的地方生活呢

Living in a new place?

我觉得这一点的话一定要想

I think this point must be considered.

想想是不是中国自己

Think about whether it is China itself.

自己有发生什么问题是不是

Is there a problem happening with you?

然后中国

Then China.

现在的习近平这个态度是不是

Is Xi Jinping's attitude like this now?

就是说什么叫中国

What does it mean to be China?

中国是

China is

中国他说的就是中共国吗

Is what he said about China referring to the Chinese Communist Party?

是不是

Is it?

如果是中国的

If it is from China.

新的话也可以就是不一定是中共那一套的

New rhetoric can also be something other than the CCP's approach.

中国

China

所以可以是其他的我们

So it could be other versions of us.

去看的中国是不是

Is it the China that I went to see?

所以我觉得这一点他只不过说白了

So I think he is just stating this point plainly.

不是中共

Not the Communist Party of China.

为了维持自己的权利

In order to maintain one's own rights.

而担心的一个状态

A state of worry.

但是我看的就是在日本在英国

But what I saw was in Japan and the UK.

其实是越来越多的中国人

In fact, more and more Chinese people.

去那边生活

Live over there.

那潘先生我跟进一个问题

Mr. Pan, I would like to follow up on a question.

您是不是习近平所说的这种

Are you the kind of person that Xi Jinping mentioned?

长着中国脸

Having a Chinese face.

没有中国心

No Chinese heart.

然后缺少中国情缺少中国味

Then it lacks Chinese sentiment and the essence of China.

您觉得您是不是这样的人

Do you think you are that kind of person?

我就只是说我是有中华的学义

I was just saying that I have the scholarship of China.

我是中华

I am Chinese.

但我不觉得我是中共国的人

But I don't feel like I am a person of the Communist Party of China.

绝对不是中共国的人

Definitely not someone from the Communist Party of China.

从来我一直出生到现在生活

I have been living since I was born until now.

从来都不说

Never say it.

我是中共国的人

I am a person from the People's Republic of China.

所以他说的中国绝对不是我看的中国

So the China he is talking about is definitely not the China I see.

然后我的心

Then my heart.

就是我是不是对哪一个民族的心

It's about whether I have a heart for a particular ethnic group.

也是对我们每一个人生活在

It is also about each of us living in.

同一个社区里面

In the same community.

同一个社会里面的

Within the same society.

互相合作

Mutual cooperation.

所以我跟日本人

So I am with the Japanese.

英国人跟外国人

British people and foreigners.

我都有很多很多层面的一些不同的交流合作

I have many different aspects of communication and collaboration.

包括在东京这边的也会有

This will also include those on the Tokyo side.

跟很多不同国家来的朋友

With friends from many different countries.

去交流

Go communicate.

所以我觉得

So I think

我们现在已经生活在

We are now living in

21世纪了

It's the 21st century.

习近平他们那些说法是

What Xi Jinping and those people say is

不要再那么古老

Don't be so old-fashioned anymore.

那么落伍

So outdated.

可不可以

Is it possible?

你跟其他人是交流

You are communicating with others.

不是什么强调自己什么中国心

It's not about emphasizing any Chinese heart of one's own.

什么中国年这样

What Chinese New Year is like this?

这个是非常呕心的

This is very nauseating.

好的

Okay.

那么习近平六年前的讲话

So Xi Jinping's speech from six years ago.

今年又被中共党刊

This year it has again been published by the CCP's party journal.

重新回顾

Revisit.

具有鲜明的

Distinctive

首先就是具有鲜明的

First of all, it has a distinct...

民族大义

National righteousness

这样一个色彩

Such a color.

什么中国脸

What is a Chinese face?

中国心

Chinese Heart

中国情

Chinese sentiment

中国味等等

China flavor, etc.

就散发着强烈的

It exudes a strong sense of.

爱国主义情绪

Patriotic sentiments

我来请教纽约邓宇文先生

I would like to consult Mr. Deng Yuwen in New York.

您觉得这种强烈的爱国主义和民族主义语言现在听起来

How do you feel about the sound of such intense patriotic and nationalistic language now?

有没有过时或者违和之感

Is there a feeling of being outdated or awkward?

有人说

Some people say.

按照习近平所说

According to what Xi Jinping said.

刚才我们讨论的这个网红

The internet celebrity we just discussed.

亚人和铁头

Ajin and Ironhead

那才是最具有中国心

That is what truly embodies the Chinese spirit.

又具有中国情和中国味的人

People who also possess Chinese sentiment and flavor.

您怎么看这个问题

What do you think about this issue?

昨天中国官方也举行了全国教育大会

Yesterday, the Chinese authorities also held a national education conference.

习也做了一个所谓的中央讲话

Xi also gave a so-called central speech.

那么就是一个六年以后中国政府再召开教育大会

So it's a conference on education organized by the Chinese government six years later.

但是习的发言的主调和六年前相比

However, the tone of Xi's speech is different compared to six years ago.

几乎没有什么变化

There is almost no change.

你会看到这套说辞

You will see this set of remarks.

还是被中国官方当做一件保护了

Still treated as a protection by the Chinese authorities.

是不能丢的

It cannot be discarded.

所以讲这种爱国主义和民族主义的

So this is about discussing nationalism and patriotism.

语言

Language

在中国官方来讲

Officially speaking in China

或者说在一部分中国民众来讲

Or it could be said that for a portion of the Chinese public

它是没有违和感的

It feels natural.

当然了

Of course.

它取决于一个人的立场和价值观

It depends on a person's stance and values.

从另外的人的立场来看

From the perspective of another person.

他就认为是有违和感

He thinks it feels inconsistent.

我想对信奉爱国主义和民族主义的中国人来讲

I want to speak to the Chinese people who believe in patriotism and nationalism.

官方的这套叙述语言

The official narrative language.

他们听起来就是说一点也不过时

They sound like they're not out of date at all.

他们看来呀

They seem to be.

爱国主义和民族主义的

Patriotism and nationalism.

是要

It is necessary.

天天念

Daily recitation

时时念才好

It's good to think of talents all the time.

对他们中的一些人来讲

For some of them

像亚人和铁头

Like Ajin and Kabaneri.

当然

Of course.

是最具有中国性

Is the most Chinese.

中国情和中国味的

Chinese sentiment and Chinese flavor.

但是就如我前面所讲的

But as I mentioned earlier,

也有很多人

There are also many people.

即便他具有强烈的民族情感

Even if he has strong national feelings.

他只要是

As long as he is

秉持一个进场的思维

Adopt an entry mindset.

对亚人的这样一种行为

Such behavior towards subhumans

也是不能够伦理的

It is also not ethical.

那

Then.

邓先生我也有一个跟进问题啊

Mr. Deng, I also have a follow-up question.

这个

This

您刚才讲到习近平

You just mentioned Xi Jinping.

昨天也在全国教育大会上发表了讲话

Gave a speech at the National Education Conference yesterday.

那么习近平在他最新的这个讲话当中

So in his latest speech, Xi Jinping...

他提没提到中国脸 中国心

Did he mention "Chinese face, Chinese heart"?

中国情 中国味

Chinese sentiments, Chinese flavors.

这样的话呢

In that case,

官方报道现在没有提

The official report does not mention it now.

我们讲实际上六年前的那个讲话

We are actually talking about the speech from six years ago.

我想当时的官方报道肯定也没提

I believe the official reports at that time definitely did not mention it either.

那这个求是杂解发表的结果是

So the result of this query published in the miscellaneous interpretations is

习近平的讲话全文

Full text of Xi Jinping's speech

所以讲习近平到底讲了没讲这个话呢

So did Xi Jinping say this or not?

这个结果他在发表全文之后

He will see this result after publishing the full text.

我们才能这个知道

We can know this.

但是我想呢

But what I want is...

这都他应该不会

He shouldn't be doing this.

这么讲了

That's how it is.

因为警告的习工环境跟六年前还是有一些不同

Because the working environment under the warning has changed somewhat compared to six years ago.

虽然说

Although it is said that

中国现在面临的这个情况比六年前更糟

The situation China is facing now is worse than it was six years ago.

但是因为更糟的话呢

But what if it gets worse?

当然也就更需要外部的力量

Of course, it also needs external power even more.

外部的进入 外国游客的进入

External entry of foreign tourists.

所以讲的话呢

So what I want to say is...

在这样

In this way

种情况之下

Under such circumstances

虽然双全的基调一样

Although the tone of both is the same.

但是有些语言的表述他可能就要转换转换一下

However, he may need to adjust the expression of some languages a bit.

好

Okay

我们来看一下

Let's take a look.

网友们在这个问题上的看法

Netizens' opinions on this issue.

尸骨无皮

Skeleton without skin.

说求是重温习近平绝不培养

To speak of seeking truth is to say that Xi Jinping will never培养.

长着中国脸不是中国心

Having a Chinese face does not mean having a Chinese heart.

没有中国情缺少中国味的

Lacking Chinese sentiment and flavor.

社会主义破坏者和掘墓人的论述呢

What about the discussions of the destroyers and grave diggers of socialism?

那我来就问马列有没有长着中国脸

Then I’ll ask if Marxism-Leninism has a Chinese face.

是中国心

It is the heart of China.

有中国情

There is Chinese sentiment.

充满中国味吗

Is it full of Chinese flavor?

还有

And also.

要怎么样

What should I do?

才

talent

才是社会主义破坏者

Only then is the destroyer of socialism.

社会主义如果像真金一样完美无瑕

If socialism were as perfect and flawless as real gold.

怎么会

How could that be?

怕被破坏呢

Afraid of being damaged.

另外一位叫地狱天使

Another one is called Hell Angel.

说看了第二个话题真不知道该说什么了

I really don't know what to say after seeing the second topic.

习近平

Xi Jinping

这样多岁数的人了

Someone of such an age

几点得吧 别再把上学的孩子

What time is it? Don't let the kids who go to school.

给毁了

Ruined.

好

Good.

我们接下来的讨论会回应

Our upcoming discussion will respond to...

这位

This person

叫什么

What is it called?

叫地狱天使的关切

The concern of the Hell's Angel.

除了强烈的民族主义和爱国主义这个色彩之外呢

Besides the strong colors of nationalism and patriotism, what else is there?

我们看到习近平的话

We see Xi Jinping's words.

还具有浓厚的

also has a strong sense of

社会主义的

Socialist

党国情怀

Party-state sentiment

就说教育

Let's talk about education.

必须要把培养社会主义建设者和接班人

It is necessary to cultivate socialist builders and successors.

作为根本的任务

As a fundamental task.

绝不能培养社会主义的破坏者和掘墓人

We must never cultivate destroyers and grave diggers of socialism.

经历过毛泽东时代的人呢

Those who experienced the Mao Zedong era?

对这种语言

About this language.

不陌生

Familiar.

但是从改革开放时代走过来的

But it has come through the era of reform and opening up.

相对年轻一代的人

The relatively younger generation.

像潘先生这么一代 年轻一代的人呢

People of the younger generation like Mr. Pan.

可能会觉得很震撼

It might feel very shocking.

我来请教潘先生

I came to consult Mr. Pan.

那么习近平为什么要撂这样的重话

So why did Xi Jinping have to make such serious remarks?

来警告教育

Come to warn and educate.

中国的教育到底出了什么问题

What is really wrong with education in China?

我觉得刚才两个网友说的

I think what the two netizens said just now.

跟

Follow

许先生提的这个是非常非常重要的问题是

Mr. Xu's question is very, very important.

我想就是年轻一代的人

I think it is the younger generation.

年轻一代的中国人我结束了也不少啊

I have also encountered quite a few young Chinese people.

就是我在读硕士的时候

It's when I was doing my master's degree.

在香港的时候也都有很多一些是中国来的朋友

When I was in Hong Kong, there were also many friends from China.

然后呢

And then?

马列真的我觉得这个是很好的一个问题

I really think this is a very good question.

那马列他本身是中国人吗

Was Marx originally Chinese?

然后所有的社会主义的

Then all of the socialism's

然后这个共产主义

Then this communism

他本身是中国朋友的吗

Is he himself a Chinese friend?

为什么只能是他们现在就变成是中国的一部分

Why can it only be that they become a part of China right now?

了这个

done this

是吧

Is that so?

是不是那为什么要去出国读书是吧

Is that why you want to study abroad?

那为什么要去出国读书是吧

So why go abroad to study, right?

如果习近平那样说的话

If Xi Jinping said that.

还有另外一个问题就是说

There is another question, which is

你马上要求所有在美国

You immediately ask all those in the United States.

在英国还有其他国家

There are other countries besides the UK.

读博士读硕士的

Pursuing a PhD or a master's degree.

还有甚至是读学士的

And there are even those who are pursuing a bachelor's degree.

全部都不要出国吧

Everyone should just stay at home and not go abroad.

全部都留在中国就算了

Just leave everything in China.

你既然要求的是所有人

Since you are asking for everyone

都是中国心什么什么

It's all about the Chinese heart, whatever that may be.

都是这样的一些中国情这样的

These are the kinds of Chinese feelings.

那他还要出来干嘛呢

Then why does he still want to come out?

那不如的话

In that case, how about...?

这样的全部都不要出国

All of this should not go abroad.

要不锁国

Either lock down the country.

这就是跟以前锁国的做法是一样的

This is the same approach as the previous isolationist policies.

所以我觉得是非常莫名其妙的

So I think it is very strange.

我也觉得非常令人担心

I also find it very concerning.

是年轻一代的

It belongs to the younger generation.

如果还是在生活在这样一个环境当中

If we are still living in such an environment.

他们不能不出国

They cannot avoid going abroad.

因为现在是世界是互相的交流的年代

Because now is an era of mutual communication in the world.

你怎么可能会

How could you possibly?

没办法去让人再跟外面去交流了

There is no way to let people communicate with the outside anymore.

根本没办法去再变成那样子的

There is simply no way to become like that again.

你就不让人家去上外网

You won't let people access the internet.

但是也都会翻墙

But they will also use a VPN.

官员自己都会翻墙是不是

Do officials themselves also bypass the restrictions?

所以加了一个被警察

So I added a police officer.

根本是没可能的

It's simply impossible.

我觉得他只是在西藏去改造洗脑的那个做法

I think he is just trying to implement the brainwashing methods used in Tibet.

完全是绝对会是失败的

It will definitely be a complete failure.

好的那么请教邓先生

Alright, then please consult Mr. Deng.

邓先生您在最近的一篇评论文章中

Mr. Deng, in your recent commentary article

您称习近平用重话警告中国教育

You said that Xi Jinping warned the Chinese education system with strong words.

其实是反映了他的一种焦虑

It actually reflects a kind of anxiety he has.

请您给我们说说习近平焦虑什么呢

Could you please tell us what Xi Jinping is anxious about?

刚才我讲了

I just spoke.

就是说习近平是在2018年讲的这番重话

This means that Xi Jinping made this important statement in 2018.

所谓的掌着中国脸不是中国心的等等

The so-called having the face of China but not the heart of China, and so on.

那么在今年的教育大会上

So at this year's education conference

我刚才讲了

I just talked about it.

他可能不会用同样的语言讲

He might not speak in the same language.

但是有可能会用绿色的语言来表达这样一种话

However, it is possible to express such a statement using green language.

这样的重话狠话

Such harsh and serious words.

原本是不应该出的

It shouldn't have been released in the first place.

对高领导人指导的

Guidance from high-level leaders.

不过他确实就像刚才您所说的

However, he really is just as you mentioned earlier.

带有习近平的这样一个话语的风格

A style of discourse that features Xi Jinping.

他喜欢用这样一种大白话来表达他心中的一种情感

He likes to use such straightforward language to express an emotion in his heart.

但是恰恰透露出他内心的焦虑

But it precisely reveals his inner anxiety.

焦虑什么东西呢

What are you anxious about?

我认为就是怕负了那么大的劲

I think it's just the fear of expending such great effort in vain.

对要还是培养出了所谓的吃中国饭

What is ultimately cultivated is the so-called "eating Chinese food."

打中国锅的射嘴的破坏者和掘墓人

The destroyer and grave digger of the Chinese pot's spout.

破坏者和掘墓人表面上

The destroyer and the grave digger on the surface.

是破坏社会主义

It is to undermine socialism.

绝对是社会主义的墓

It is definitely the grave of socialism.

但是习近平实在害怕的就是绝对是共产党的墓

But what Xi Jinping truly fears is definitely the grave of the Communist Party.

如果教育培养出了共产党的掘墓人的话

If education has cultivated the grave diggers of the Communist Party.

那共产党怎么还能统计得下去呢

How can the Communist Party continue to keep track of things?

所以讲习近平当然就会焦虑了

So it's obvious that Xi Jinping would feel anxious.

因为从目前的这样一个情况来看

Because based on the current situation,

就像我在文章里面讲的

Just like I mentioned in the article.

他这个教育是正在一个失败

His education is currently a failure.

好的

Okay

那么我们现在呢

So what about us now?

我们来

We are coming.

我们聊天室里大量这个网评进来了

A large number of this online review has come into our chat room.

观众朋友们呢

What about the audience friends?

在这个问题上有许多看法

There are many opinions on this issue.

给大家选读一些

Select some reading for everyone.

首先是诗日先生

First is Mr. Shi Ri.

他说中国的爱国教育只有一种

He said there is only one kind of patriotic education in China.

那就是对党的忠诚

That is loyalty to the Party.

而不是对国家和人民的真正热爱

Instead of a true love for the country and its people.

真正的爱国不是被强迫出来的

True patriotism is not something that is coerced.

而是发自内心的感情

But rather feelings that come from the heart.

另外一位花花兰

Another Huahuanlan.

说独裁者每当自己的权利

The dictator talks about his power whenever...

受到怀疑和挑战时呢

What about when faced with doubt and challenges?

肯定会祭出民族主义牌

Will definitely play the nationalism card.

因此不断来麻痹中国人民

Therefore, it continues to numb the Chinese people.

这当前呢

At this moment.

这与当前中共国经济大滑坡

This is related to the current economic slump in the Communist Party of China.

中共的领导地位

The leadership position of the Communist Party of China.

受到严重挑战时的情况分不开的

The situation when faced with serious challenges is inseparable.

Do not

Do not

说中国脸是怎么定义的

What is the definition of a Chinese face?

包括维吾尔人吗

Does it include Uyghurs?

这位评论很有意思

This comment is very interesting.

海岸

Coast

说长着中国脸没有中国心

Having a Chinese face but not a Chinese heart.

这是习的自我

This is Xi's self.

评价

Evaluation

他长着中国脸却有一颗俄国心

He has a Chinese face but a Russian heart.

习看不起中国人

Xi despises Chinese people.

说中国人是懒汉

Saying that Chinese people are lazy.

习根本不管中国人的民生疾苦

Xi fundamentally does not care about the suffering and hardships of the Chinese people.

而是把中国人的血汗钱都拿去

But it takes away the hard-earned money of the Chinese people.

对外大撒币

Spending money lavishly abroad.

孝敬俄父亲

Filial piety towards my father.

孝敬非洲人

Respecting and honoring Africans.

我们刚才呢

Just now, we...

念了许多这样的这个

Reciting many of this kind.

我们聊天室里

In our chat room.

观众们的他们的看法

The audience's opinions.

这样我想请我们两位专家呢

In this way, I would like to invite our two experts.

对我们刚才聊天室里

Regarding what we just talked about in the chat room.

这些观众的评论呢

What about the comments from these viewers?

简要的

Brief.

简你自己最感兴趣的

Briefly describe what interests you the most.

印象最深的这样评论呢

The most impressive comment is like this.

我们做一个简要的评论好吗

Shall we make a brief comment?

首先潘先生

First of all, Mr. Pan.

我当然觉得

Of course I think so.

大家的看法呢

What does everyone think?

是非常同意的

I absolutely agree.

就是一点

It's just a little bit.

习近平如果他只是在提的

If Xi Jinping is just proposing this.

只是这个所谓的中国心啊

It's just this so-called Chinese heart.

或者是中国的心啊

Or it is the heart of China.

或者是什么中国

Or is it China?

他一直提的

He has always mentioned it.

我觉得大家一定要是非常清醒的

I think everyone must be very clear-headed.

要明白是所提的只是中共国这个政权

It should be understood that what is being mentioned is only the regime of the Chinese Communist Party.

而不是中国这个概念啊

It's not the concept of China.

所以我觉得这个是我我自己也觉得

So I think this is what I myself also feel.

在研究当中呢

In the midst of research.

也是经常提什么是什么叫中国呢

What often comes up is what is called China.

大家要持续的去问这个概念

Everyone should continuously question this concept.

中国包括哪一些特质

What characteristics does China include?

刚才有一个其中很有趣的说

Just now, someone said something very interesting.

中国年

Chinese New Year

包括包括这个维吾尔的年呢

Including this year's Uyghur New Year.

是不是

Is it?

也包括了其他五十几个民族的年

It also includes the years of more than fifty other ethnic groups.

是不是也都包括他们呢

Does it also include them?

这个我觉得是非常好的一个问题啊

I think this is a very good question.

究竟啊

What on earth?

是不是这个中共国是怎么对待

Is this how the Chinese Communist Party treats people?

五十几个不同民族的一个态度呢

The attitude of more than fifty different ethnic groups.

我们今天这是怎么去看呢

How are we going to see this today?

是汉人为先

It is the Han people who come first.

所有东西都是汉人为先吗

Is everything prioritized for the Chinese people?

是不是这个态度呢

Is it this attitude?

我觉得这个也是值得我们去分享

I think this is also worth sharing.

去多想

Go think more about it.

我觉得对于我们来讲

I think for us

今天要看的一个问题是说

The question we are going to discuss today is about.

要民族主义

We need nationalism.

中国心

China's Heart

这些概念所强调的

The emphasis of these concepts.

而不是我们所谓真的

Rather than what we call real.

我们整个民族的一些

Some of our entire nation.

骄傲或是我们那个态度

Pride or our attitude.

而是这个中共是透过这些方式来去强调

Instead, the Chinese Communist Party emphasizes this through these means.

他们政权的是有多重要

How important their regime is.

要强调他们能够维持这个政权有多重要

It is important to emphasize how crucial it is for them to maintain this regime.

所以我们绝对不要

So we absolutely must not.

帮助他们的政权

Help their regime.

让他们变成是他们的帮凶

Make them become their accomplices.

好

Good.

那么邓先生也请您简要回应一下

Then Mr. Deng, please provide a brief response as well.

我们刚才聊天室里观众们的看法好吗

How did the audience's opinions in the chat room just now?

我想这个刚才你念的

I think this is what you just read.

就是这个观众的这样一个评论

It is just such a comment from the audience.

它代表了一种中国人

It represents a kind of Chinese person.

很大一部分对习近平这个讲话的这样一个反感吧

A significant part of the aversion to Xi Jinping's speech, I suppose.

所谓的这个教育的问题

The so-called issue of education.

因为我们讲这个教育

Because we are talking about this education.

什么是教育

What is education?

你对起码来讲

At least, you...

教育要符合教育的一个自身的一个规律

Education must conform to its inherent principles.

教育的一个自身的规律

A fundamental principle of education.

它不是以党派立场来去做一个衡量的标准

It is not used as a standard for measurement based on party stance.

但是习近平现在的这个教育

But Xi Jinping's current education.

所谓的社会主义的这个建设者

The so-called builder of socialism.

特别是社会主义的接班人

Especially the successors of socialism.

明显的就是说是以党派立场

What is obviously expressed is a party stance.

而且是以政治人物

And it is as a political figure.

以共产党的这样一个统计的为优先的这样一个前提

Under the premise that such statistics are prioritized by the Communist Party.

当然他就是符合教育的一个基本规律

Of course, he conforms to a fundamental rule of education.

他会扭曲教育的那个绿带的这样一个功能

He will distort the function of that green belt in education.

同样的他也会让这个老百姓

Similarly, he will also make this common person...

得不到一个健全的这样一个

Cannot obtain a sound one like this.

我们讲这个基本的教育

We talk about this basic education.

也为所对老百姓

Also for the common people.

尤其是年轻一代

Especially the younger generation.

对中国的那种优秀的政治文化

The excellent political culture of China.

它其实也是一个阉割了的

It is actually a castrated one.

这样就是为什么我讲

This is why I say.

是很多人是对习近平这个讲法

Many people have comments about Xi Jinping's way of speaking.

非常反感的这样一个重要

Very disgusted by such an important thing.

好的

Okay.

一位叫天地良的网友

A netizen named Tiandi Liang.

发表了下来的看法

The opinions that have been expressed.

说习自己长的是中国脸

Said Xi has a Chinese face.

但是却有一颗俄国心

But there is a Russian heart.

对非洲 俄罗斯 拉美 中东

Towards Africa, Russia, Latin America, and the Middle East.

等落后地区的人充满感情

People in lagging areas are filled with emotions.

对中国人的苦难视而不见

Turn a blind eye to the suffering of the Chinese people.

开口闭口都是马恩列斯

Everything they say is about Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Stalin.

完全没有中国味

Completely lacking Chinese flavor.

所有的中共党员都是黄皮白心的香蕉人

All members of the Communist Party of China are yellow-skinned with white hearts, like bananas.

习总是上演魔幻现实主义

Xi is always staging magical realism.

另外一位柴道2023

Another person named Chai Dao 2023.

说习近平成长于毛时代

Xi Jinping grew up during the Mao era.

他自己就是毛泽东的狂热崇拜者

He himself is a fervent admirer of Mao Zedong.

习梦想

Xi's dream

的未来中国就是像毛时代那样

The future of China will be like the era of Mao.

政教合一的狂热帝国

The fanatical empire of unity between politics and religion.

现在习近平出来警告中国教育

Now Xi Jinping has come out to warn about Chinese education.

要的就是要全面倒退

What is needed is a complete regression.

退回到毛时代的洗脑教育

Returning to the brainwashing education of the Mao era.

再次培养出一批对中共

Once again cultivate a group of people who are aligned with the Communist Party of China.

对习本人绝对忠诚和狂热的信徒

A fervent and absolute disciple of Xi himself.

保他的红色江山永不变色

To maintain his red regime forever unchanged.

好

Good.

我们回到我们自己的问题

Let's return to our own question.

中国进入了互联网时代

China has entered the internet era.

尽管有严厉的网络管控

Despite the strict internet control.

但是抖音微博微信等平台

But platforms like Douyin, Weibo, and WeChat

还是在年轻人面前打开了一个五彩缤纷的世界

Still opened up a colorful world in front of young people.

但是中共领导人似乎还停留在毛泽东时代

However, the leaders of the Chinese Communist Party seem to still be stuck in the Mao Zedong era.

封闭落后的那种状况

The situation of being closed off and backward.

连语言都没有多少进步和变化

Even the language hasn't made much progress or change.

刚才我们一位叫这个柴道个生动的说了这个问题

Just now, one of our colleagues named Chai Dao Ge vividly discussed this issue.

我们来请教潘先生

Let's ask Mr. Pan.

对此您怎么看

What do you think about this?

当然在网络上面的

Of course, it's on the internet.

他不断的中国政府想去控制言论

He constantly wants to control free speech by the Chinese government.

甚至去输出他们的那套思想

Even export their set of ideas.

但是你也看到其实年轻一代

But you can also see that the younger generation...

起码是我认识的也不少是

At least I know quite a few.

越来越能够有独立的分析

Increasingly able to have independent analysis.

他们也是有机会到国外去旅游

They also have the opportunity to travel abroad.

到国外去旅游

Traveling abroad.

去交流

Go communicate.

然后我们去跟他私下

Then we went to speak with him privately.

有一些可能不能办法

There are some things that may not be possible.

没办法去公开去讨论

There is no way to openly discuss it.

但是很多时候都是有私下

But often there are private matters.

我们有机会就私下去讨论

We have the opportunity to discuss it privately.

所以很多时候发现

So many times, I find that...

其实他们也都觉得中国有很多很多的问题

In fact, they all feel that China has many, many problems.

他们是非常渗忘是有自由的社会

They are a very permeable and free society.

所以我觉得上代白纸那个事件出来之后

So I think after the previous "white paper" incident came to light.

一直以来其实越来越多的问题

Actually, more and more issues have been arising all along.

越来越多的年轻人是愿意

More and more young people are willing to.

就是透过他们的一些能够做的事情

It is just through some things they are capable of doing.

来去改变一些想法

Come and change some ideas.

让年轻一代能够非常有独立的一个思想

Allow the younger generation to have a very independent way of thinking.

所以我觉得在这个层面来讲的话

So I think, on this level,

互联网是绝对给了一个正面的一个影响

The internet has definitely had a positive impact.

让我们年轻一代的中国人

Let us young generation of Chinese people.

是能够有更趋于能够有自由

It is possible to have greater freedom.

向往自由的一个想法

A longing for the idea of freedom.

嗯

Hmm.

在培养上的中国人的思想上

On the Chinese mindset regarding education.

在培养什么人的这个问题上呢

Regarding the question of what kind of people we are cultivating,

习近平和中共当局正在打败仗

Xi Jinping and the Chinese Communist Party authorities are fighting a losing battle.

这是邓先生

This is Mr. Deng.

您呢在文章中得出的一个结论

What conclusion did you draw in the article?

那就请您给我们展开一下

Then please elaborate for us.

谈谈您对互联网时代

Talk about your views on the internet era.

中共重新拾回这个毛泽东时代的

The Chinese Communist Party has regained this Mao Zedong era.

灌输和洗脑这个看法

The view on indoctrination and brainwashing.

讲一讲这个问题好吗

Can you talk about this issue?

毛泽东时代当局对民众的灌输和洗脑

The indoctrination and brainwashing of the public by the authorities during the Mao Zedong era.

即属于管用啊

That's really useful!

毛泽东时代当局对民众的灌输和洗脑

The indoctrination and brainwashing of the public by the authorities during Mao Zedong's era.

是因为那个时候处于一个封闭的环境

It was because at that time I was in a closed environment.

人民根本接触不到外界的这个信息

The people have no access to this information from the outside world at all.

不仅不了解外国的情况

Not only do they not understand the situation abroad.

除了本单位本系统

Except for this unit and this system.

发展成本地区之外的信息

Developing information outside of cost areas.

了解的也很有限

Understanding is also very limited.

再加上官方灌输的是毛的思想

In addition, the official indoctrination promotes Mao's ideology.

而毛本人呢

As for Mao himself,

在那个时候被民众当作神一般的人物

At that time, he was regarded as a god-like figure by the people.

所以讲他的话

So he speaks.

人们就想当年的就接受了

People just accepted it as it was back then.

不了解这个天下的信息

Do not understand the information about this world.

自然也就无法比较

Naturally, it cannot be compared.

没有比较的话

There is no comparison.

也就引起了这个

This has also led to this.

印度也就只能听官方的

India can only listen to the official statements.

相信官方的信息

Trust the official information.

以为天下人都处于这个生活

Thinking that everyone in the world lives like this.

水深火热之中

In deep waters and intense heat.

但是我们讲如今不是这样啊

But we are not saying it's like this now.

尽管官方也选择性的

Although the authorities also selectively

输送这个信息啊

Convey this information.

然而民众呢

However, what about the people?

他有渠道去豁起官方不提供的信息

He has channels to obtain information that is not provided by the authorities.

官方也无法完全封闭这个信息

The authorities cannot fully seal off this information.

另外国门呢毕竟是开放的

Moreover, the country’s borders are open after all.

每年都有很多人在世界流动

Every year, many people move around the world.

也有很多外国人来中国

Many foreigners also come to China.

再有毛的动作呢

What about Mao's actions?

这种结局我们就要先 volute

We have to volute first before reaching this conclusion.

..?

...?

那你这说什么啊

Then what are you talking about?

那日我说出了

That day I spoke out.

实际上是一个大战 satellites

In fact, it's a major battle of satellites.

同时你不能说

At the same time, you cannot say.

太早在这些事件里面

Too early in these events.

中共什么伦桑

What is the Communist Party of China?

中共当局现在在培养什么人的问题上呢

What kind of people is the Chinese Communist Party currently nurturing?

正在打败仗

Currently fighting a losing battle.

那您是从哪方面看到您的这个结论的呢

Then, from what aspect do you see your conclusion?

我刚才最后说的一句话

The last thing I just said.

看看美国使馆

Check out the American embassy.

这个前进排队的那个长强的队伍就知道

This long line for advancing knows only.

而且我也通常在国内的一些朋友交流

Moreover, I often communicate with some friends in the country.

他们都很想把自己的小孩送出去

They all really want to send their children away.

哪怕这些朋友都不是说非常有钱的人

Even if these friends are not very wealthy.

他们都对谈到国内的教育都是摇摇头

They all shake their heads when talking about domestic education.

所以这个我觉得一般的民众

So I think the general public...

就要稍微有些思考有些了解的

It requires a bit of thought and understanding.

他就知道这样一种方式的话

He just knows that this kind of way.

他不是说是

He didn't say it was.

他也给他培养一个进场的

He also trained him for an entrance.

一个现代国家的公民的意识

The consciousness of a citizen in a modern nation.

而是在回复讲中国古老的

But rather in response to discussing ancient China.

那一种所谓的军情传统

That so-called tradition of military affairs.

那种非常

That kind of very.

糟糕的东西

Awful thing.

他们肯定不愿意自己的这样一个

They definitely would not want such a situation for themselves.

下一代接受这样一种教育

The next generation receives such an education.

好的那么我也请教一下潘先生

Alright, then I will also consult Mr. Pan.

这个邓先生认为呢

Mr. Deng thinks this.

中共在关于培养什么人的这个问题上呢

The Chinese Communist Party has a stance on the question of what kind of individuals to cultivate.

现在呢已经打了败仗

Now, we have already suffered a defeat.

您对这个问题怎么看呢

What do you think about this issue?

我觉得就是单从我自己的生活的层面

I think it's just from the perspective of my own life.

结束到的我在香港的时候呢

When I ended up in Hong Kong, you know.

在英国的时候以后

After being in the UK.

在东京呢在日本呢

In Tokyo, in Japan.

其实真的我非常同意邓先生所说的

Actually, I really agree with what Mr. Deng said.

所观察到的一个情况

A situation that has been observed.

我看到是越来越多的中国年轻人

I see that more and more young people in China.

他们是走出来在区间不同的地方

They are walking out in different places within the interval.

他们去参与去了解

They go to participate and understand.

真的是非常多人越来越多

There are really more and more people.

去参与我们一些讲座啊

Come join us for some lectures!

或是一些交流会

Or some exchange meetings.

来的人真的非常非常多

There are really very, very many people coming.

真的不少

Really quite a lot.

然后他们发表的意见

Then the opinions they expressed.

就是非常的愿意去解释

I am very willing to explain.

在自由社会里面的一些批判性的一些评论

Some critical comments in a free society.

而不是那些只是结束中国那一套洗脑的一些评论

Rather than those comments that just end the brainwashing of that set in China.

所以我觉得邓先生那个分析是非常对

So I think Mr. Deng's analysis is very correct.

我觉得也是一个推势

I think it is also a trend.

好那么看起来呢

Well, it seems like that.

这个中共洗脑灌输式的这种教育方法

This brainwashing and indoctrination-style educational method of the Chinese Communist Party.

作用不大

Not very effective.

我们今天时事大谈讨论到这里就结束了

Our discussion on current affairs today comes to an end here.

感谢邓宇文潘家伟两位先生

Thanks to Mr. Deng Yuwen and Mr. Pan Jiawei.

参加我们的节目

Join our program.

也感谢观众朋友们的收看和积极参与

Thank you to the audience for watching and actively participating.

两位嘉宾在节目中发表的都是个人观点

The opinions expressed by the two guests in the program are their personal views.

不代表美国之音

Not representative of Voice of America.

明天时事大家谈的两个话题是

The two topics for tomorrow's current affairs discussion are

一 美国众议院通过台湾冲突组合法案

The U.S. House of Representatives passed a bill on Taiwan conflict resolution.

北京呢若攻台冻结高官资产

Beijing will freeze the assets of senior officials if it attacks Taiwan.

二 苹果对决华为

Apple vs. Huawei

美中手机大战谁占上风

Who has the upper hand in the US-China smartphone battle?

网友们可以透过X在节目开始之前就跟我们互动

Netizens can interact with us through X before the show starts.

好

Good.

我们下期节目再会

See you in the next episode.