时事大家谈：网红侮辱日本游客事件发酵，中国反思民族主义？ - 9月 11日,2024年

下面我们就开始第一个话题

Now let's start the first topic.

网红侮辱日本游客事件发酵

The incident of an internet celebrity insulting Japanese tourists is escalating.

中国反思民族主义

China's Reflection on Nationalism

中国网红亚仁日前发视频炫耀

Chinese internet celebrity Yaren recently posted a video to show off.

他在北京圆明园斥责一名

He reprimanded a person at the Summer Palace in Beijing.

请求为日本游客让位拍照的中国导游

A Chinese tour guide requests giving way for Japanese tourists to take photos.

骂他是卖国贼

Scold him as a traitor.

保安也表示支持

The security personnel also express their support.

声称就不应该日本人进入

It claims that Japanese people should not enter.

这段视频在自媒体平台引发热议

This video has sparked heated discussions on social media platforms.

网友不仅指责亚仁盲目排外

Netizens not only accused Yarin of being blindly exclusive.

还扒出了他早年在美国留学期间的犯罪记录

He also uncovered his criminal record from his early years studying in the United States.

中国外交部发言人称

The spokesperson of the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated.

这是网红的个人言行

These are the personal words and actions of an internet celebrity.

中国不会针对任何特定国家

China will not target any specific country.

采取歧视性做法

Adopt discriminatory practices.

人民日报旗下环球人物发文指责

The Global People, a publication under the People's Daily, issued a statement of criticism.

称民族大义不是流量密码

Claiming national righteousness is not a way to gain popularity.

盲目排外在我国没有土壤

Blind exclusion has no soil in our country.

那么中国为何屡次

Then why has China repeatedly...

出现针对特定国家的仇外言行

There has been xenophobic rhetoric and actions targeting specific countries.

盲目仇视日本如何产生反世效应

How blind hatred towards Japan produces counterproductive effects.

北京该如何反思民族主义的心态呢

How should Beijing reflect on the mentality of nationalism?

讨论这个话题为您邀请到的两位嘉宾

The two guests you invited to discuss this topic.

中国战略分析智库研究员邓玉文

Deng Yuwen, a researcher at the China Strategic Analysis Think Tank.

邓先生您好

Hello, Mr. Deng.

我觉得好 大家好

I feel good, hello everyone.

日本东京大学访问研究员潘家伟

Visiting researcher Pan Jiawei at the University of Tokyo, Japan.

潘先生您好

Hello Mr. Pan.

徐先生您好

Hello, Mr. Xu.

我们欢迎观众朋友们

We welcome our audience friends.

在收看我们节目的同时

While watching our program

踊跃参加讨论

Actively participate in the discussion.

我们将在讨论过程中

We will during the discussion process.

选用您的问题和评论

Choose your questions and comments.

节目开始之前

Before the program starts

我们先看一段自由亚洲

Let's first take a look at a segment from Radio Free Asia.

节选自推特平台上的视频

Excerpt from a video on the Twitter platform.

请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目

Please kindly like, subscribe, share, and support Mirror and the Diandian program with donations.

欢迎收看订阅明镜与点点栏目

Welcome to watch and subscribe to the Mingjing and Diandian programs.

首先我不太了解你提到的具体情况

Firstly, I don't quite understand the specific situation you mentioned.

对于个人的言行我也不做评论

I do not comment on individual words and actions.

但是我可以告诉你的是

But what I can tell you is

中国是一个开放包容的国家

China is an open and inclusive country.

我们不会针对任何特定的国家

We will not target any specific country.

采取歧视性的做法

Adopt discriminatory practices.

好的 我们看到这位取名亚人的中国网红呢

Okay, we see this Chinese internet celebrity named Yaren.

他本想通过炫耀其民族大义来蹭热度

He originally wanted to ride the wave of popularity by flaunting his sense of national righteousness.

增加知名度

Increase visibility.

不想呢 他弄巧成拙

I don't want to, he made things worse.

不但遭到包括这个官方媒体的舆论非议

Not only faced public criticism from this official media.

还被人扒出他在美国留学时的犯罪记录

He was also exposed for having a criminal record while studying in the United States.

那这回他是大大的出名 风光了一次

Then this time he became well-known and had a glorious moment.

我来请教纽约邓宇文先生啊

I would like to consult Mr. Deng Yuwen from New York.

您怎么看这位网红以及他

What do you think of this internet celebrity and him?

所引发的这个舆情呢

The public opinion triggered by this.

我认为官媒批判啊

I believe that state media is critical.

是这位亚人做的太举格了

This half-human did it too excessively.

已经跟炫耀这个民族大义无关

It has nothing to do with boasting about national righteousness.

基本上在我看来

Basically, in my opinion.

他就是一个街头这个颇别无赖的这样一个角色

He is just a rather rogue character on the street.

中国当局虽然倡导和鼓动这个民族主义啊

Although the Chinese authorities advocate and promote this nationalism.

挑动民众的这种民族情感

This kind of national sentiment inciting the public.

诉诸民族大义

Appeal to national righteousness.

但是他肯定也不愿意看到民众以这样一种方式去爱国

But he surely does not want to see the public express patriotism in this way.

如果这个日本游客在银河园做了不雅的事情

If this Japanese tourist did something inappropriate at the Galaxy Park.

比如讲水地吐痰啊

For example, spitting phlegm into the water.

被亚人看到 他上去骂人家

He was seen by the subhuman, and he went up to curse at them.

表演他的民族大义

Perform his national duty.

官方还可以为他辩解说是四居有因

The official could also argue that there are reasons for the four accommodations.

但是人家是好端端的在义和园走路

But the person was just walking peacefully in the Summer Palace.

欣赏风景

Appreciating the scenery.

就因为他是日本人

Just because he is Japanese.

你就无端的骂人家 骂那个翻译

You just insult people for no reason, cursing that translator.

无论是多么选择多么的慷慨这样

No matter how generous the choices are.

实际上就是小丑一个

It's actually just a clown.

他不是在张扬国威

He is not flaunting national prestige.

而是在败坏中国的形象

But rather damaging China's image.

想想看这个亚人的这样一副丑菜全部出去的话

Imagine if all the ugly vegetables of this subhuman were to be put out.

日本国民

Japanese citizens

其他国家的民众是怎么看待中国和中国人的

How do people in other countries view China and the Chinese people?

肯定认为这个是没有素质的一个国家

Definitely believe that this is a country lacking in quality.

是一个没有素质的国民

It is a nation of uncivilized citizens.

那么如果官方连这种行为都容忍

Then if the authorities even tolerate such behavior

甚至都鼓励以后随便一个中国人

It even encourages any random Chinese person in the future.

看到大街上的日本人

Seeing the Japanese people on the street.

或者看到大街上的美国人

Or see Americans on the street.

得着就骂了 那谁还敢来中国了

If you get scolded for coming, then who would dare to come to China?

所以讲即便是对自己的人民最不讲理的中国政府

So even the Chinese government, which is the least reasonable towards its own people.

在面对亚人的这种行为时

When facing such behavior from subhumans

最基本的理性的不能为他去辩护

The most basic rationality cannot defend him.

更不能去鼓励的

Even more so not to encourage.

所以讲这种事情被曝光出来之后

So after such things are exposed.

亚人的神文受到官方的批评

The divine text of the subhuman has been criticized by the authorities.

我认为是在预料之中的

I think it was to be expected.

好的 那么有一位日本记者就这个问题

Okay, then there is a Japanese journalist regarding this issue.

向外交部发言人发问

Questioning the spokesperson of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

说中国外交部发言人

The spokesperson of the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs said.

我们刚才看到这个视频

We just saw this video.

他称这是网红的个人言行

He called this the personal behavior of an internet celebrity.

但是我们切不论文讯赶来的那位公园保安

But we can't talk about the park security guard who came hurriedly.

也支持这位网红发表了更加露骨的歧视言论

It also supports this internet celebrity in making more explicit discriminatory remarks.

不久前的另一位中国网红叫铁头

Not long ago, another Chinese internet celebrity was called Iron Head.

他在日本靖国神社的这个所作所为

His actions at the Yasukuni Shrine in Japan.

也在日中两国之间引发了巨大的舆情

It has also sparked huge public opinion between Japan and China.

我请教日本潘家伟先生啊

I consulted Mr. Pan Jiawei from Japan.

这个中国人的反日情绪

The anti-Japanese sentiment of this Chinese person.

您觉得是不是个别现象

Do you think it's an isolated phenomenon?

您周围的日本人

Japanese people around you.

怎么看这个问题呢

How should we view this issue?

那其实当然要看

That actually depends.

是什么年级的日本人呢

What grade is the Japanese person in?

那我认识的也有不同年级的

Then I know people from different grades as well.

我看如果是很年轻的

I think if it's very young.

其实根本第一没有多少了解中国

In fact, there is hardly any understanding of China at all.

然后呢更谈不上他们对于中国的那些

Then it is even more unrelated to their views on China.

过去的一些什么跟

Some things from the past.

军国主义有关的在侵略中国的那个年代

The era of militarism related to the invasion of China.

根本因为他们对于历史

Basically because of their views on history.

对他们来讲

For them

是没什么太大意义的

It doesn't have much significance.

已经是非常久之前的事

It was a long time ago.

所以年轻一代呢

So the younger generation, huh?

他只不过是把中国看成是另外一个附近的国家

He simply sees China as just another nearby country.

然后有很多他们也都看到有中国人来日本打工啊

Then many of them also saw Chinese people coming to Japan for work.

可以做商业买房子这样的

It is possible to buy houses for commercial purposes like this.

但是其实一般来说

But generally speaking,

有很多中国人自己聚聚在一些特定的一些地方

Many Chinese people gather in certain specific places.

所以一般

So usually.

日本人其实也没有太明白太了解

The Japanese people actually don't understand it very well either.

但是最近的话

But recently,话.

除了你刚才提到的铁头事情

Except for the iron head matter you just mentioned.

也有最近在这个社股那边的话

There has also been talk about this in the recent social stock discussions.

也有一个中国的年轻人

There is also a young person from China.

19岁的

19 years old

他也用刀来去砍一个日本的女孩子

He also used a knife to attack a Japanese girl.

所以那个事情呢

So about that matter.

其实也引起非常多的讨论

In fact, it has also sparked a lot of discussion.

其实究竟现在这一代的中国人呢

In fact, what about the current generation of Chinese people?

他们是

They are.

怎么去看日本的

How to go to Japan?

如果好奇怪

If it's strange.

就是其实在日本的生活的中国人也真的不少

There are actually quite a few Chinese people living in Japan.

有几十万到一百万差不多

It is roughly between several hundred thousand to one million.

但是

But

这一直以来的表现态度是非常抗拒

The attitude displayed all this time has been very resistant.

现在这样的一些出来的

Now some of these have come out.

他们只不过是一些游客去旅游啊

They are just some tourists traveling.

这样的一个态度里表现出来的

Such an attitude is expressed in this way.

我真的觉得是不是为了流量

I really feel like it's for the traffic.

所有这些最基本的礼貌最基本的文化啊

All these most basic manners and fundamental culture.

都完全没有了

It's all completely gone.

所以我看这个事情是变成是越来越

So I see this matter is becoming more and more...

否则是

Otherwise it is

把日本人跟中国人的关系

The relationship between Japanese people and Chinese people.

原来其实这

It turns out that this is actually...

十年二十年我觉得原来没有伤那么那么

In ten or twenty years, I feel that the original wounds were not so deep after all.

严重的但是我觉得现在日本人的话年轻一代可能他们也都会在想想究竟

It's serious, but I think the younger generation of Japanese people might also be thinking about it now.

中国人是什么一回事

What is being Chinese?

好的

Okay.

我们刚才两位嘉宾呢发表了他们对这个问题的看法

Our two guests just shared their views on this issue.

现在我们来看一看

Now let's take a look.

网友们的意见

Opinions of netizens

一位叫尸骨无皮

A person named Bone Without Skin

这位网友呢他在

This netizen is...

回应我们这期节目昨天发表在推特上的这个节目预告的时候呢

In response to the teaser for our show that was posted on Twitter yesterday...

发表了下来的看法他说

He expressed his views.

中国网红在圆明园

Chinese internet celebrities at the Old Summer Palace.

驱逐日本游客外交部说是个人行为毛宁说中国是一个开放包容的国

The expulsion of Japanese tourists is described by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs as a personal action. Mao Ning stated that China is an open and inclusive country.

的国家我们不会针对任何特定国家采取

We will not target any specific country.

歧视性做法

Discriminatory practices

那他在证实

Then he is confirming.

中国是一个包容的国家

China is an inclusive country.

只会对任何国家采取普遍的

Will only take a universal approach towards any country.

歧视性做法

Discriminatory practices

另外一位叫答案

The other person is called Answer.

说中共想传递的是网红排外事件

What the Chinese Communist Party wants to convey is the incident of internet celebrities being anti-foreign.

是一个个人行为

It is a personal act.

与中共没有关系

Unrelated to the Chinese Communist Party.

但之前长荣酒店

But before that, Evergreen Hotel.

国旗事件

Flag Incident

就是由法国

It's from France.

促统会

Promote Unification Association

所主导

Led by

这些事件

These events

并不是民族主义而是中共

It is not nationalism, but the Chinese Communist Party.

对内

Internal

对外的

External

舆论战

Public opinion battle

我们的观众呢

Where are our audience?

我们的网友们比较

Our netizens are relatively

关心的就是这究竟是不是一个

What I'm concerned about is whether this is really one.

像中国外交部发言人毛宁

Like the spokesperson of the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Mao Ning.

所说的

What is said

是一个

It is one.

个人行为

Personal behavior

我想请两位嘉宾就这个问题呢也发表一点看法

I would like to invite the two guests to share their views on this issue.

首先我来请问

First, let me ask.

请问邓先生您觉得

May I ask what Mr. Deng thinks?

这是一个个人简要谈谈就可以啊

This is just a brief personal discussion.

您觉得这是一个

What do you think this is?

这种行为

This behavior

是

Yes

中国人的个人行为吗

Is it the personal behavior of Chinese people?

我认为

I think.

意见他是为了做

His opinion is for doing.

一个个人行为

An individual behavior

但是

But

个人行为的

Personal behavior的

背后他是有这个这么多年来中国政府

Behind him, he has the support of the Chinese government for so many years.

所一直灌输的这样一个民族主义甚至说是

Such nationalism that has been consistently instilled.

针对日本的这个

Regarding this matter concerning Japan.

长年累月的这样一个批评所导致的这样一个自然的一个反应

A natural response resulting from years of such criticism.

好的那么

Alright then.

日本的潘先生您怎么看这个问题日本人怎么看这个问题

Mr. Pan from Japan, what is your view on this issue and how do the Japanese see it?

现在刚才您讲到了在日本的这个中国游客也做出许多呢

Just now, you mentioned that Chinese tourists in Japan have also done a lot.

类似的这样的行为

Similar behaviors like this.

那么日本人在中国呢

So, what about the Japanese in China?

也遇到了这样的行为

I have also encountered such behavior.

日本人怎么看这个问题是不是中国人的个人行为呢

How do the Japanese view whether this issue is a personal behavior of the Chinese?

当然我觉得

Of course, I think.

也是也牵涉到是有个人行为在里面但是整个

It also involves individual actions, but overall...

也都有反映的就说这一代啊说是起码就是

It also reflects that this generation at least...

我们看到就会对待日本人这样一个态度的也不单是一两个

We see that this attitude towards the Japanese is not just held by one or two individuals.

案例是挺多的案例嘛

There are indeed quite a few cases.

所以呢

So, what?

呃政府也其实我觉得也不能说是态度只是说退缩

Uh, I think it's not just the government's attitude, but rather a retreat.

只是个别的人这样的然后都没有没有解决啊问题的一个态度啊我觉得这个是

It's just that a few individuals have this attitude of not having a solution to the problem, and I think that this is...

不负责任的也不会说

Irresponsible people won't speak up either.

换过来的如果是

If it has been changed.

呃在

Uh, in.

呃日本那边的

Uh, over in Japan.

呃就是真的有歧视中国人的态度很明显出现的时候

Uh, it’s when the discrimination against Chinese people is clearly evident.

或是在中国有日本人歧视

Or there is discrimination against Japanese people in China.

呃中国人这样的反过来的有没有可能会觉得可以接受

Uh, is it possible that Chinese people would find something like this acceptable?

有没有可能会觉得可以接受

Is it possible to feel that it's acceptable?

因为日本政府

Because the Japanese government

呃反过来说只是个别的

Uh, on the contrary, it's just a few.

呃事情所以呢他们不管

Uh, so they don't care about the situation.

我觉得不单是

I don't think it's just that.

可以这样的去推说就算了也都说明了整个社会的氛围啊你是

This way of pushing it aside also reflects the atmosphere of the entire society, doesn't it?

武力或者是你呃中庸这样的去

Use force or you should take a moderate approach.

有歧视的一个态度

A discriminatory attitude.

这样的话你作为政府的应该要去做一些事情来去改变

In that case, you as the government should take some actions to bring about change.

好

Good.

我们看到人民日报旗下的网站

We see the website under the People's Daily.

环球人物

Global Figures

就发表了评论文章

Just published a commentary article.

通知

Notice

民族大义

National righteousness

不是流浪密码

It's not a wandering password.

流量密码对不起啊盲目排外呢在我国没有土壤

Sorry, the traffic password blindly excludes others, and there is no soil for it in our country.

那么

Then

果真是这样的吗

Is it really like that?

请教邓先生

Please consult Mr. Deng.

您怎么看官媒的

What do you think of the official media?

舆论导向

Guidance of public opinion

中国官方是不是

Is the Chinese government...?

现在已经开始

It has started now.

反思

Reflection

这个民族主义了

This is nationalism.

呃我认为这个

Uh, I think this.

官媒的反应和

The reaction of state media and

官方可能还不是同一回事为什么这么讲呢

The official might not be the same thing, why is that?

我们讲虽然是

We say although it is.

现在官方把媒体管得很实

The authorities are now managing the media very strictly.

在报道上要听从官方的这种安排和要求

In reporting, we must adhere to the official arrangements and requirements.

但是在很多的官媒呀

But in many official media outlets...

他们的编辑记者有自己的看法并不是事事都要去迎合官方

Their editorial journalists have their own opinions and do not have to cater to the official stance on everything.

所以讲在这个事情上有些媒体编辑记者他可能就

So some media editors and reporters may have something to say about this matter.

看不惯亚伦的这种行为碰撇他

I can't stand Aaron's behavior, so I'll just ignore him.

但是这并不等于官方就要对

But this does not mean that the authorities have to...

这个我们讲

We will talk about this.

过度的鼓吹民族主义有所反思

Excessive promotion of nationalism should be reflected upon.

因为官方就让这个

Because the official just let this happen.

呃外交部发言人讲的他会把这个事情作为一个特殊的个案来对待

Uh, the spokesperson of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said he would treat this matter as a special case.

是个人行为

It is a personal behavior.

从官方的这个角度来考虑啊

From this official perspective, consider it.

在中共的一些生态无法

In some ecological environments of the Chinese Communist Party.

说服民众的这样一个情况之下

In a situation like this, persuading the public...

再加上现在中国和美国中国西方的这样一种对抗

In addition, there is now a confrontation between China and the West, particularly the United States.

还必须用民族主义去来维系民众的这个团结和国家的统一

It is also necessary to use nationalism to maintain the unity of the people and the country's unification.

这一点在未来很将是一期都不会

This point will definitely not be an issue in the future.

削弱所以从整体上来讲啊

So overall speaking, it weakens.

官方还是会容忍民族主义的这个团结和国家的统一

The authorities will still tolerate this unity of nationalism and the unity of the nation.

但是通过这个案例了

But through this case.

他也可能确实会对民众中的这种表演过分

He may indeed go too far in such performances among the public.

那种带有非常强烈表演性质为了流量的这样一种行为啊

That kind of behavior with a very strong performative nature aimed at gaining traffic.

已经连中国人都不满的就是某些行为啊

What even Chinese people are dissatisfied with is certain behaviors.

进行一个约束和敲打这个是有可能的

It is possible to impose a constraint and enforce it.

好的那么人们常说呢

Alright, then people often say.

说民族主义是一把双刃剑

Saying that nationalism is a double-edged sword.

其反噬效果是不容忽视的

The counterproductive effect cannot be ignored.

中国现在我们知道他目前呢是急于

China is currently eager to...

稳定外资来华

Stabilize foreign investment in China.

稳定外国人包括游客来华

Stabilize foreigners including tourists coming to China.

不是前不久这个片面宣布对世界上许多国家

It was just a while ago that this unilateral announcement was made to many countries around the world.

这个就是说免签证免签证来华旅游

This means visa-free travel to China.

那么正如环球人物所说啊

So as the Global People said, ah.

让包括日本游客在内的大批外国游客

Allow a large number of foreign tourists, including Japanese tourists.

来亲自感受到中国的开放与亲和

Come and personally experience China's openness and friendliness.

以达到让外国人称赞

To achieve praise from foreigners.

中国社会既安全又自由

Chinese society is both safe and free.

中国人很热情乐于助人

Chinese people are very warm-hearted and helpful.

交通便利啊移动支付发达

Transportation is convenient and mobile payment is well-developed.

生活便捷

Convenient life

这样呢英美澳媒体对于中国的滤镜式报道

In this way, the media in the UK, US, and Australia has a filtered perspective on China.

就不攻自破了

It's like breaking without any attack.

就会达到这样一个效果

It will achieve such an effect.

那么我来请教潘先生

Then I will ask Mr. Pan.

有人说

Some people say

网红亚人呢他用民族大义这把双刃剑

The internet celebrity is using the double-edged sword of national righteousness.

反伤到中国自己

Backfire on China itself.

这才引起官媒的愤怒

This is what triggered the anger of state media.

您

You

看是不是这样

See if it's like this.

我觉得也会真的引起一些日本人的反感

I think it will really provoke some Japanese people's dislike.

他们又会

They will again.

会不会有减少有一些人

Will there be a reduction in some people?

可能

Possible

不会再去中国旅游了

I will not travel to China again.

我相信还会有影响一些的

I believe there will still be some impact.

然后你说

Then you say.

说有没有会影响有些人去做生意啊

It might affect some people in doing business, right?

或者是这样的

Or it could be like this.

交流啊

Communication!

其实

Actually

在过去几年的我们也有

We have also had it in the past few years.

也看到新闻呢有一些去中国做生意的

I also saw in the news that some people are doing business in China.

或者是中国去交流的

Or it might be an interaction initiated by China.

也有曾经过是被抓的

There were also those who were once arrested.

所以呢我相信这样的一些案例再加上现在一个态度

So I believe that these kinds of cases, coupled with the current attitude,

加起来的话

If added together then

其实呢也没有

Actually, there isn't.

让外界感觉到就是一定会有

Make the outside world feel that there will definitely be.

继续有很多日本人会感兴趣去

Many Japanese people will continue to be interested in going.

不一定

Not necessarily.

至少我觉得我身边的一些越来越关心

At least I feel that some people around me are becoming more and more caring.

中国人权问题的日本人呢他们也都在

What about the Japanese on the issue of human rights in China? They are also involved.

X上面都是在网上也都经常有发表很多言论

X often posts a lot of comments online.

所以我觉得

So I feel that

这个态度会引起

This attitude will provoke.

某一些日本人的反感

Some Japanese people's resentment.

对中国的现在这个态度也都

The current attitude towards China is also...

越来越反感

Increasingly disgusted.

然后我们也都有跟

Then we all have followed.

一些日本人分享关于香港的问题他们也是觉得

Some Japanese people shared their thoughts on issues regarding Hong Kong; they also feel that...

对于中国这样的去对待香港也是非常

It is also very important for China to treat Hong Kong like this.

非常糟糕的一个情况所以对很多日本人来讲的话中国的

It's a very terrible situation for many Japanese people regarding China.

没有商业权

No business rights.

在之前的一些比较正面的一个

In some of the previous more positive ones.

看法有可能现在已经变成是有点负面了

The opinion may have now turned a bit negative.

那么潘先生我有个跟进问题啊

Well, Mr. Pan, I have a follow-up question.

您在日本

You are in Japan.

您了解这个日本国民对中国的看法

Do you understand the Japanese people's views on China?

您觉得这一次这个亚人

What do you think of this half-human this time?

在圆明园歧视日本人的这种做法

The practice of discriminating against Japanese people at the Summer Palace.

您觉得会在

Do you think it will be?

日本游客当中引起什么样的反应

What kind of reactions were triggered among Japanese tourists?

对于日本游客

For Japanese tourists.

去中国

Go to China.

旅游会有什么样的影响呢

What kind of impact will tourism have?

我觉得有一些原来可能没有

I think there are some things that may not have originally existed.

就是很关心政治的

Just very concerned about politics.

日本人因为一般其实日本人挺政治难感的

Japanese people are generally quite politically indifferent.

就是坦白说他们也没有太

To be honest, they don't really have much either.

对于政治很感兴趣但是对于现在这个事情也会引起多一次

I am very interested in politics, but this issue will also raise concerns again.

上一次铁头的那个事情

The last time regarding Tie Tou's matter.

已经引起很大的讨论

It has already sparked a lot of discussion.

然后我刚才提的

Then what I just mentioned

在有那个

Having that.

中国人

Chinese person

去看那个日本的

Go see that Japanese one.

日本的女孩子也是非常反感

Japanese girls also feel very disgusted.

再加上这个

Plus this.

我相信的话也会有引起一大批的

I believe that it will attract a large group of people as well.

日本人

Japanese person

起码他们不会觉得在去中国旅游有多大的一个长袖

At least they won't feel that going to travel in China has much of a long sleeve.

所以他们绝对在朋友之间呢

So they are definitely among friends.

在网络上面越来越多的讨论会觉得不要去中国了

There is an increasing amount of discussion online suggesting to avoid going to China.

好的

Okay.

那么这可能是呢

So this could be it.

中共官媒

Chinese Communist Party official media

以及中国官方啊

And the Chinese authorities.

在这个问题上

On this issue

这个对

This is correct.

亚人

Ajin

这样的网红

Such a internet celebrity

提出谴责的一个主要原因

One main reason for raising condemnation.

我们再来看一下网友们的看法

Let's take another look at the opinions of netizens.

一位叫柴道个2023

A person named Chai Daoge 2023.

这位网友他说

This netizen said.

中共现在呢面对是国内经济全面崩溃

The CCP is now facing a complete collapse of the domestic economy.

不得不重新转向

Have to turn back.

重提对外开放

Reiterate the opening up to the outside world.

试图呢引进外国资本来救市

Trying to attract foreign capital to rescue the market.

这个时候这些网龙

At this time, these NetDragon.

这些网红战狼们

These internet celebrity war wolves.

在继续各种疯狂的表演

Continuing various crazy performances.

就很不合时宜了

It is quite untimely.

只是中共把义和团煽动起来

It was just that the Communist Party incited the Boxer Rebellion.

现在

Now

想要收放自如再压制下去

Want to control it freely and then suppress it further.

就不那么容易了

It won't be so easy.

另外一位叫

The other one is called.

塞地

Sealing the land

他说反思个毛

He said, "What a useless reflection."

说民族主义是一把双刃剑

It is said that nationalism is a double-edged sword.

中共呢只是在

The Communist Party is just in...

控制他达到自己的目的需要的时候

Control him to achieve one's own goals when necessary.

加把柴不需要的时候泼瓢水

It's unnecessary to pour water when adding more firewood.

我们下面的讨论呢

Our discussion below

我们可能会

We might.

涉及到这个问题

Involving this issue.

就是说

That is to say

民族主义

Nationalism

是中共

It is the Communist Party of China.

想要的时候就要

Take it when you want it.

不想要的时候他会

When he doesn't want it, he will...

就是说刚才我们那网友说的

That is what the netizen mentioned earlier.

需要的时候加把柴

Add more firewood when necessary.

不需要的时候泼瓢水

Splashing water with a ladle when not needed.

我们来讨论一下这个问题

Let's discuss this issue.

网红们

Internet celebrities

盲目排外一方面呢

On one hand, blindly excluding others...

引起了包括官方舆论的愤慨和声讨

It has provoked anger and condemnation from official public opinion.

但另一方面在自媒体上

But on the other hand, in social media.

引起大量中国网民的叫好

It has sparked widespread applause from Chinese internet users.

许多网民表示

Many netizens stated.

强烈支持这位网红

Strongly support this internet celebrity.

日本人在中国

Japanese people in China.

就是不受欢迎

Just unpopular.

不能惯着

Can't be spoiled.

他们

They

有人说中日是宿敌

Some people say that China and Japan are arch-enemies.

中国人对于日本人的敌视是历史造成的那么来请教邓先生

The hostility of the Chinese towards the Japanese is caused by history, so let me ask Mr. Deng.

您怎么看这个问题

What do you think about this issue?

中国人对日本人的敌视

Chinese people's hostility towards Japanese people.

您认为是历史原因呢

Do you think it's due to historical reasons?

还是现实原因呢

Is it still due to practical reasons?

我认为两方面都有啊

I think there are both aspects.

历史上来讲啊很多人认为这个近代对中国造成最大破坏的两个国家一个就是

Historically, many people believe that the two countries that caused the greatest damage to China in modern times are one of them.

一个是日本

One is Japan.

一个是俄国

One is Russia.

这个俄国我们不讲不是我们讨论的这个

This Russia is not what we are discussing.

议题

Agenda

那么对日本来讲从918到卢高桥再到八年清华战争

So for Japan, it went from 918 to the Lugou Bridge and then to the eight years of the Sino-Japanese war.

杀死了那么多中国人但是日本政府啊

The Japanese government has killed so many Chinese people, but...

以及大部分的这个日本民众没有对中国进行这样一个

And most of the Japanese people do not have such a view towards China.

赔罪和道歉

Apology and regret

他们的政治人物还动不动参拜进国行事

Their politicians frequently engage in ceremonial visits to the country.

这就很

This is very.

会引起很多中国人的这样一个不满

This will cause a lot of dissatisfaction among Chinese people.

那么有人当然会把它归咎于是中国政府

Then some people will of course attribute it to the Chinese government.

片面的向民众灌输日本的清华历史了

One-sidedly instilling the public with Japan's Qinghua history.

日本人对这个这种行为也有自己的解释

The Japanese also have their own explanation for this kind of behavior.

但是如果把日本和德国归咎起来

But if we attribute the blame to Japan and Germany.

确实会发生了日本的过去处理

It has indeed happened that Japan's past has been dealt with.

处理过去的那段历史的时候做的我觉得不是

I feel that what I did when dealing with that past history was not right.

很妥当啊

That’s very appropriate.

就是从历史角度来讲也是引起中国人反感的一个因素

From a historical perspective, this is also a factor that causes resentment among the Chinese people.

从现实来讲呢

In terms of reality,

除了这个日本政治人物参拜进国行事之外

Aside from this Japanese politician's visit to Yasukuni Shrine,

中日的这个钓鱼岛的争端以及近几年日本追寻美国了

The dispute over the Diaoyu Islands between China and Japan and Japan's alignment with the United States in recent years.

围堵中国

Encircle China

是一个更大的因素

It is a bigger factor.

尤其是日本在围堵中国这点上有些这个在中国人看来做得比美国还过分

Especially regarding the containment of China, many Chinese people feel that Japan is doing even worse than the United States.

让很多中国人感觉不满

Makes many Chinese people feel dissatisfied.

那么这些因素再加上中国政府有意的去

So these factors, combined with the Chinese government's intention to...

鼓励众农

Encourage all farmers.

甚至放纵民间的这种反人的情绪

Even indulging in such anti-human emotions among the populace.

所以也就造成哑人这种现象的这种出现

Therefore, this phenomenon of mute individuals has emerged.

这是我对这个世界的这样一个看法

This is my perspective on this world.

好的那么邓先生我也有一个跟进的问题啊

Alright, Mr. Deng, I have a follow-up question as well.

您说呢

What do you think?

这个历史因素扮演了很大的角色

This historical factor played a significant role.

在现在这个中日关系

In the current Sino-Japanese relationship.

不断交恶的这个情况下

In this situation of continuously worsening relations.

但是有人指出呢

But someone pointed out.

历史因素随着这个时代

Historical factors with the times.

随着这个中国政策的需要呢可能

With the need for this Chinese policy, it may be...

它起的作用有时候大有时候小比如

Its role can sometimes be significant and sometimes minimal, for example.

有人提出

Someone proposed.

中国的80年代

China's 1980s

在

At

胡赵的时候就是胡耀邦

Hu Zhao is referring to Hu Yaobang.

赵紫阳主政那个时候

When Zhao Ziyang was in power.

中国和日本的关系很好

China and Japan have a good relationship.

历史因素还是摆在那

The historical factors are still there.

您怎么解释这个现象

How do you explain this phenomenon?

历史因素到了它是一个潜在的因素它是中国政府的这样一个对日政策的这个调整

Historical factors have become a potential influence in the adjustment of the Chinese government's policy towards Japan.

调整

Adjustment

但是这个

But this

进一步那个因素它是潜在的

The further factor is potential.

常在那儿所以它不会消失

Always there, so it won't disappear.

一旦就是说整个中日环境变了

It means that the entire Sino-Japanese environment has changed.

再加上中国政府有一个

Additionally, the Chinese government has a...

这个引导上另外一个方面那么民族自然就会对

This guidance will naturally lead the nation to another aspect.

日本的一个看法起一个负面的

A negative view of Japan.

所以讲这种东西

So talking about this kind of thing

它并不表示说因为中国政府好因为中国政府

It doesn't mean that it's good because of the Chinese government.

对日本不好

Not good for Japan.

所以那个因素就消失不见了

So that factor has disappeared.

它是有时候会强化有时候弱化但是就是存在着

It sometimes strengthens and sometimes weakens, but it simply exists.

但是如果我们讲

But if we talk about it...

日本比如讲在清华这件事情上

For example, Japan in regard to this matter at Tsinghua.

如果就像我刚在前面讲的

If it is just like what I mentioned earlier.

你和德国朋友

You and your German friend.

比较起来如果像德国那样的话

If it were like Germany, comparatively speaking.

那我讲可能在中国

Then I think it might be in China.

无论是中国政府怎么去

No matter how the Chinese government goes.

去煽动民族主义

To incite nationalism.

怎么去煽动对日本人的这种不满的话

How to incite such dissatisfaction towards the Japanese?

民族自然会

The nation will naturally.

比现在应该来讲我觉得会对日本的看法表现的进一步

I think there will be a further expression of views on Japan compared to now.

同样的我们可以从另外一个看

Similarly, we can look at it from another perspective.

虽然中国政府就是

Although the Chinese government is

现在中日关系报但是其另一个立场的人比如讲

Now, the China-Japan relationship is but another stance for those who talk.

其自由主义立场的人我的很多朋友都已经

Many of my friends have already adopted his liberal stance.

移民或者到

Immigrants or to.

日本去了

I went to Japan.

他们

They

就对日本还是很有好感

I still have a good impression of Japan.

所以这个东西我认为就是说

So I think this thing means that...

它一方面跟中国政府有关但是另一个方面确确实实是

On one hand, it is related to the Chinese government, but on the other hand, it is indeed...

这个律师因素是存在的你不能抹杀这个因素

This factor of the lawyer exists, and you cannot deny it.

好的

Okay.

一位叫

A person named

大野人的这个网友

This internet user from Dayanren.

他发表了下来的看法

He expressed his views.

他说

He said.

此事呢彰显中国人的文明程度

This matter highlights the level of civilization among the Chinese people.

要高日本人至少一个数量级

To be at least one order of magnitude higher than the Japanese.

为什么呢

Why is that?

他说中国一位网红骚扰日本游客一次

He said a Chinese internet celebrity harassed a Japanese tourist once.

被从官媒到反贼网红

From official media to rebel internet celebrity.

齐声声讨

In unison, condemn.

中国社交平台

Chinese social media platform

更将其

Further will it

禁言

Muted

说日本网红在奈良天天骚扰中国游客

It is said that Japanese internet celebrities are harassing Chinese tourists in Nara every day.

全体日本人民日本媒体日本官方

All Japanese people, Japanese media, Japanese officials.

在一边看戏网红更是不遗余力的加以鼓励

While watching the performance from the side, the internet celebrity spared no efforts in encouraging it.

两个都是罪犯

Both are criminals.

差别竟然如此之大

The difference is unexpectedly so great.

骇人听闻

Shocking and horrific.

我们这位

This person of ours

网友呢

Where are the netizens?

指出

Indicate

不只是

Not just.

中国国民歧视日本游客

Chinese citizens discriminate against Japanese tourists.

日本国民也歧视中国游客

Japanese citizens also discriminate against Chinese tourists.

有没有这么回事

Is this true?

我们来下面看一下

Let's take a look downstairs.

中国官方和民间的舆论认为那日本官方刚才像邓先生讲的那样

Chinese officials and public opinion believe that the Japanese government has just acted as Mr. Deng mentioned.

日本官方和民间在历史清华战争这个问题上

The official and civilian positions in Japan regarding the issue of the history of the Qing-Hua War.

没有做出深刻反省

Did not make a deep reflection.

因此中国人才耿耿于怀不能原谅

Therefore, Chinese people harbor deep resentment and cannot forgive.

我来请教潘先生

I came to consult Mr. Pan.

您怎么看这个问题

What do you think about this issue?

不久前的网红铁头事件

The recent internet celebrity "Iron Head" incident.

和这一次的网红亚人世界

And this time's internet celebrity subculture world.

在日本和日本人中间

Between Japan and the Japanese people.

引起多大反响

Cause a great response.

最后很重要的就是

Lastly, what is very important is

日本人当中有没有

Are there any Japanese people among them?

仇视中国人的

Hostile towards Chinese people.

这样一种心态

This kind of mentality.

我觉得是完全不了解日本人

I feel that I completely don't understand the Japanese people.

才会有这样的一个说法

Only then will there be such a saying.

真的很莫名其妙我觉得

I really feel it's very inexplicable.

你可以骂

You can curse.

几年级大的日本人

Older Japanese person in a few grades.

他们那一代确实是

Their generation indeed is.

军国主义的

Militaristic

影响下

Under the influence

就是当时

It was at that time.

就是盲目的去支持天皇

It is blindly supporting the emperor.

然后就发生了那么

Then it happened like that.

糟糕的事情

Bad things.

有清华

There is Tsinghua.

也不但是清华了其实其他亚洲国家他们也有去

It's not just Tsinghua; other Asian countries have also gone there.

就是侵略了

It is an invasion.

但是问题是

But the problem is

现在的我们结束的年轻一代的

The current young generation we are ending.

日本人全部都是非常哀嚎和平的

The Japanese people are all very grieving and peaceful.

他们其实也都有批评

They actually all have criticisms as well.

自民党的一些老一辈的他们的态度

The attitudes of some older generations in the Liberal Democratic Party.

所以呢

So?

如果真的去了

If you really go.

真的去了看

Really went to see.

日本的网民的说法日本人本身

The saying of Japanese netizens about the Japanese themselves.

之间的一些讨论

Some discussions in between.

根本绝对不会上出来这样的一些评论

Absolutely no such comments will come out at all.

非常错误的完全不了解日本我是这样的一个看法

It is a completely wrong understanding of Japan; this is my viewpoint.

那么潘先生

Then Mr. Pan.

我的根据问题是呢

My question is, what is it?

这个

This

不久前我们看到在日本奈良的确看到一位中国游客呢

Not long ago, we indeed saw a Chinese tourist in Nara, Japan.

可能对这个奈良的路

It may be about this road in Nara.

很有名吗

Is it very famous?

中国的一位游客对奈良的路

A Chinese tourist's view on the roads of Nara.

可能是做出了一些

Perhaps some were made.

不是十分恰当的一个做法但是

It's not a very appropriate approach, but...

从视频上我们不知道潘先生您看没看那个视频

From the video, we don't know if you, Mr. Pan, have watched that video.

从视频上我们看到呢

From the video, we can see that...

这个这位先生

This gentleman.

中国人

Chinese people

可能不是故意的

It may not be intentional.

但是呢他却遭到了旁边一位

However, he was遭遇了旁边一位.

这是日本警察也好还是日本网红也好

Whether it's Japanese police or Japanese internet celebrities.

严厉的斥责

Severe reprimand

然后呢这个在中国呢

Then, in China,

引起了非常非常负面的影响

Has caused a very, very negative impact.

就是所以才有这样的说法

That’s why there is such a saying.

就是说

That is to say.

中国人

Chinese people

中国人仇日

Chinese people have a hatred for Japan.

日本人

Japanese person

其实也仇中

In fact, it is also anti-Chinese.

那您怎么看这个现象

What do you think about this phenomenon?

我觉得这个是文化的问题了

I think this is a cultural issue.

你是怎么对待日本人他们怎么看

How do you treat the Japanese and what do they think?

看待动物他们觉得

They view animals as.

这些路

These roads

都是他们的非常尊重而且在奈良那边是非常重要的

It is all about their great respect, and it is very important over in Nara.

你这样的去对待是一点都没有礼貌

It is very impolite of you to treat it this way.

然后呢人家去要你去听

Then they want you to go listen.

然后语言上你也没有很明白了

Then you also didn't understand it very well in terms of language.

但是你这个态度好像就觉得

But your attitude seems to suggest that...

很随便觉得可以你到去去了人家什么地方你就可以做什么动作

It's very casual; you can do whatever you want wherever you go.

这个我觉得是缺文化而且没有尊重

I think this shows a lack of culture and respect.

所以呢对于日本人来讲的话

So for the Japanese people,

你完全不尊重我们的然后他们就会非常紧的一个态度

You don't respect us at all, and then they will have a very tight attitude.

平常的话他们觉得可以随便的没所谓

They usually think it's okay to be casual about it.

但是你采取这样的态度时候人家都会觉得

But when you take this kind of attitude, others will feel...

你不尊重我们

You do not respect us.

然后人家就会要一定要管你是不是

Then people will definitely want to control you, right?

要管你的时候你们都倒过来就说人家

When it's time to take care of you, you all turn it around and talk about others.

不尊重你的歧视

Disrespecting your discrimination.

这个是什么样的一个态度呢

What kind of attitude is this?

你是去破坏人家的以后对人家不礼貌然后

You're going to ruin someone's reputation and then be rude to them.

人家去提你

Someone is coming to get you.

你就是说人家

You mean to say others.

歧视你

Discriminate against you.

这样的其实表现出来的就是没文化

What this actually shows is a lack of culture.

我就是这样说

That's exactly what I'm saying.

好

Good.

节目最后呢

At the end of the program,嘛.

我们聊天室里大量的网评进来我给大家选读一些然后

A large number of online reviews have come into our chat room, and I will select and read some of them to everyone.

结束我们上半场的讨论转入下半场

Let's conclude our discussion for the first half and move on to the second half.

一位叫

Someone named

玉王

Jade King

这位

This person.

观众他说这是习惯性违法

The audience said this is a habitual violation.

还是单纯

Still pure.

转流量这个区别很重要

The distinction of transferring traffic is very important.

于次郎

Yu Cilang

就算是表演这些小粉红的仇外表演

Even if it’s just a performance of these little pink anti-foreign shows.

就是有大量的中国人支持其流量

There are a large number of Chinese people supporting its traffic.

而这就是中国人的集体性格与想法的展现了

And this is a reflection of the collective character and thoughts of the Chinese people.

是绝大多数中国人集体意志的展现

It is a manifestation of the collective will of the vast majority of Chinese people.

他们就代表着绝大多数中国人

They represent the vast majority of Chinese people.

谁都无法为他们辩解

No one can defend them.

于次郎

Yoshirou

说中国粉红喜欢打着民族大义的旗号

It is said that Chinese nationalists like to wave the banner of national righteousness.

为非作歹

To commit crimes and do evil.

是因为集体这个概念可以稀释个体所应当承担的责任

It is because the concept of the collective can dilute the responsibilities that individuals should bear.

而中国人的只要可以不用负责使

As long as Chinese people can avoid responsibility.

他们就什么事都能做得出来

They can do anything.

当年红卫兵热衷于打土豪分天地最能说明这一切了

The Red Guards' fervor for fighting the landlords and dividing the land back then best illustrates it all.

USA

USA

这个事情搞大了

This matter has gotten serious.

就象征性的批评一下

Just a symbolic criticism.

如果换成其他的直接抓进监狱

If it were someone else, they would be taken straight to jail.

中共要的就是这种意识形态斗争

The Communist Party of China desires this kind of ideological struggle.

毕竟经济搞不好

After all, the economy isn't doing well.

民生搞不好人权也搞不好

If people's livelihoods are not good, human rights cannot be good either.

狮子先生

Mr. Lion

外交部这意思呢就是鼓励个人行为

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs means to encourage individual actions.

犯事了也不追究现在还敢来的外国人自己掂量风险

Foreigners who come here even after committing offenses and not being held accountable should assess the risks themselves.

后果自负

Consequences bear responsibility.

好的我们感谢邓宇文和潘家伟两位先生的精彩点评

Thank you to Mr. Deng Yuwen and Mr. Pan Jiawei for their wonderful comments.

两位嘉宾在节目中发表的都是他们个人观点不代表美国之音

The views expressed by the two guests in the program are their personal opinions and do not represent Voice of America.