LangTurbo - Learn Languages Faster

Hi everybody, this is Alf Keel and this is the Waldcast on Purpose.

Hi iedereen, dit is Alf Keel en dit is de Waldcast over Doel.

Welkom bij de nieuwste aflevering van de Waldcast on Purpose.

Welcome to the latest episode of the Waldcast on Purpose.

Ditmaal een interview in het Engels.

This time an interview in English.

Ik interview Alf Keel.

I am interviewing Alf Keel.

Alf is een internationaal spreker als het gaat over leiderschap, transformatie,

Alf is an international speaker when it comes to leadership, transformation,

veelgeving.

much giving.

Hij vraagt consultant, komt bij de grotere bedrijven op deze aarde langs en Alf heeft

He asks for a consultant, visits the larger companies on this planet, and Alf has

een boek geschreven.

a book written.

Een boek on board.

A book on board.

Het boek gaat over hoe leuk het is om te starten met je werk, maar doe het dan wel op een goede

The book is about how fun it is to start your job, but do it in a good way.

manier.

way.

Dus hij heeft al zijn ervaring van de afgelopen jaren gebundeld in een boekje over hoe herken

So he has compiled all his experience from the past years into a booklet on how to recognize

je je baas?

you your boss?

Wat is de rol van geld?

What is the role of money?

Hij heeft dat omkleed met een aantal mooie quotes.

He has surrounded it with a number of beautiful quotes.

Het is in het Engels.

It is in English.

Dus zo nu en dan komen er wat F-words doorheen het gesprek naar boven, maar het valt mee.

So now and then some F-words come up during the conversation, but it's not too bad.

Ik beloof je, het is een interessante kerel, een leuk gesprek en zijn boek on board is zeker

I promise you, he's an interesting guy, a nice conversation, and his book on board is definitely worth it.

een aanrader.

a recommendation.

Dus ik wens jou veel luisterplezier met Alf Keel.

So I wish you a lot of listening pleasure with Alf Keel.

Oké, Alf, welkom bij de Waldcast on Purpose.

Okay, Alf, welcome to the Waldcast on Purpose.

We kennen elkaar al voor een aantal maanden.

We have known each other for a number of months.

Ik heb je als master van ceremonie gezien tijdens een grote leiderschap-event waar je

I saw you as the master of ceremonies during a large leadership event where you

master van ceremonie was, maar ook de conductor van de orkest.

master of ceremonies, but also the conductor of the orchestra.

En er is veel meer te vertellen.

And there is much more to tell.

Als mensen je LinkedIn-profiel kijken, zien ze dat je een autootje bent, je facilitator,

When people look at your LinkedIn profile, they see that you are a little car, your facilitator,

je doet events, je doet teams, je doet coaching, je doet keynotes.

You do events, you do teams, you do coaching, you do keynotes.

En ik weet dat je zelfs een marathon hebt gedaan, je hebt recent een boek geschreven,

And I know that you even ran a marathon, you recently wrote a book,

maar het is misschien goed, Alf, dat je jezelf uitmaakt.

but it might be good, Alf, that you make up your mind.

Goed, Walter, bedankt.

Good, Walter, thanks.

Het is geweldig om hier te zijn en het is geweldig om met je te praten en ik denk dat

It is great to be here and it is great to talk to you and I think that

we de volgende keer kunnen doen in persoon.

We can do it in person next time.

Ja, ik ben geboren in IJsland, ik heb in Duitsland gewoond voor een goede aantal jaren.

Yes, I was born in Iceland, I have lived in Germany for a good number of years.

Mijn achtergrond is dat ik twee verantwoordelijk verschillende disciplines heb geleerd.

My background is that I have learned two responsible different disciplines.

Ik heb psychologie geleerd in Londen en dan, een goed aantal jaren geleden, heb ik een

I studied psychology in London, and then, a good number of years ago, I had a

master's gegeven, eigenlijk, in iets genaamd Informatie-Systems-Engineering,

master's degree, actually, in something called Information Systems Engineering,

wat de voorraad was van de artificiële intelligentie.

what the stock of artificial intelligence was.

Ik heb voor een kort tijd gewerkt in de wereld van software en toen, weet je,

I worked for a short time in the world of software and then, you know,

ben ik langzaam gerealiseerd dat het niet echt iets was dat ik de rest van mijn leven

I slowly realized that it wasn't really something I wanted for the rest of my life.

wilde doen.

wanted to do.

En wat voor mij begon te gebeuren, bijna met een ongeluk, was dat ik begon te worden

And what started to happen to me, almost by accident, was that I began to become

ingepakt.

packed.

Ik begon met communicatie, dat is te vertellen hoe dingen werken, en toen begon ik

I started with communication, which is explaining how things work, and then I started

meer te worden ingepakt in leren en ontwikkeling.

to become more wrapped up in learning and development.

En ik heb me geïnteresseerd, niet in een vlees van licht, maar op een gegeven moment in

And I became interested, not in a meat of light, but at a certain moment in

mijn leven, dat dit iets is wat ik leuk doe en dat dit iets is wat mensen me vertellen

my life, that this is something I enjoy doing and that this is something people tell me

dat ik ongeveer goed ben.

that I am about okay.

Dus ik heb dat voor een grote organisatie gedaan, voor een aantal jaren.

So I did that for a large organization for a number of years.

Ik heb het er best goed aan gedaan.

I have done quite well at it.

En dan, ja, het moet nu 16 jaar geleden zijn, heb ik mijn eigen kleine bedrijf geïnteresseerd,

And then, yes, it must be 16 years ago now, I started my own little business.

gebaseerd hier, meestal uit München.

based here, usually from Munich.

We hebben ook een kleine office in IJsland.

We also have a small office in Iceland.

En we hebben de klassische dingen gedaan, hopelijk in een wat anders manier, maar

And we did the classic things, hopefully in a somewhat different way, but

als ik de klassische dingen zeg, zijn we een heel klein outfit.

When I mention the classic things, we are a very small outfit.

We werken als coachen, als facilitators.

We work as coaches, as facilitators.

We specialiseren in teams.

We specialize in teams.

We specialiseren in organisatieve verandering.

We specialize in organizational change.

Alles in dat genre, we zijn niet zo specialiseerd in elke omgeving.

Everything in that genre, we are not so specialized in every environment.

Wat we specialiseren in, is echt mensen interesseren in en betrokken zijn

What we specialize in is really making people interested in and involved with.

aan hun eigen persoonlijke verandering en aan het veranderen van het team en

to their own personal change and to the change of the team and

organisatie dat ze in zijn.

organization that they are in.

Ja.

Yes.

En als je dat doet op een globale basis...

And if you do that on a global basis...

Je bent dus niet alleen gebouwd naar Duitsland, IJsland of het Verenigd Koninkrijk, maar

You are therefore not only constructed towards Germany, Iceland, or the United Kingdom, but

je reageert ook overal in de wereld, hè?

You respond everywhere in the world, right?

Ja, ik werk in ongeveer 40 tot 50 landen, ik werk in programma's, ik doe keynote's, coaching,

Yes, I work in about 40 to 50 countries, I work in programs, I give keynotes, coaching,

et cetera.

and so on.

Het is heel veel een globale bedrijf en de meeste groepen die we werken zijn internationale

It is a very global company and most of the groups we work with are international.

groepen.

groups.

Oké.

Okay.

En zelfs in Duitsland nu, ik denk dat de meeste organisaties en zeker de meeste

And even in Germany now, I think that most organizations and certainly most

academische instituties nu werken in het Engels, dus 99% van wat we doen is in dat

Academic institutions now operate in English, so 99% of what we do is in that.

taal.

language.

En ja, het is een globale bedrijf en het is toegankelijk voor de groepen in het

And yes, it is a global company and it is accessible to the groups in it.

bedrijf en de groepen in het land.

company and the groups in the country.

Oké, oké.

Okay, okay.

En je bent een heel doelgericht persoon.

And you are a very goal-oriented person.

Ik heb geleerd dat je op een moment in de tijd was waar je trainde en je trainde

I learned that you were at a moment in time when you were training and you trained.

heel hard voor een maatschappij.

very hard for a society.

En je hebt dat nog nooit gedaan.

And you've never done that before.

Dus is dat wie je bent?

So is that who you are?

Een heel doelgericht persoon?

A very goal-oriented person?

Nou, je kijkt naar deze dingen en je probeert te vinden waar ze vandaan komen.

Well, you look at these things and you try to figure out where they come from.

Ja, ik heb nu twee marathons gedaan sinds ik je laatst zag en ik doe een hele

Yes, I have run two marathons since I last saw you and I am doing a whole one.

beetje runnen.

a little running.

Ik ben doelgericht.

I am goal-oriented.

Ik heb altijd gedacht, ik ben op school gegaan heel vroeg en ik ben naar werk gegaan.

I always thought, I went to school very early and then I went to work.

Ik ben een beetje laat.

I am a bit late.

En als ik werk zeg, dan bedoel ik corporate werk.

And when I say work, I mean corporate work.

Ik heb al soorten job gedaan in mijn leven.

I have done all kinds of jobs in my life.

Ik was, ik was, zoals je weet, mensen, ik zeg het mezelf, ik was ongeveer 35

I was, I was, as you know, people, I tell myself, I was around 35.

voordat ik een proper job had.

before I had a proper job.

Dus ik kijk er terug en zeg, oh, je hebt tien jaar verliezen of zoiets.

So I look back and say, oh, you have ten years to lose or something like that.

Je moet een job nemen.

You need to get a job.

En, sorry om te interrupteren, is dat omdat je begon te studeren op een later

And, sorry to interrupt, is that because you started studying later?

oog?

eye?

Ik deed dat.

I did that.

Ik begon te studeren.

I started studying.

Ik bedoel, al mijn studieën gebeurten na het donker.

I mean, all my studies happen after dark.

En ik ben naar school gegaan, je weet, 15, rond 16, met geen kwalificatie.

And I went to school, you know, 15, around 16, with no qualifications.

Dus ik ben later teruggegaan en ik deed al mijn studieën, zoals ik zeg, na het donker

So I went back later and I did all my studies, as I said, after dark.

van 0 tot master's.

from 0 to master's.

Wat goed is.

What is good.

Het is niet iets om te vermoeden.

It is not something to suspect.

Maar soms kijk je terug en je denkt, als je de normale weg had gevolgd, dat is als je

But sometimes you look back and you think, if you had followed the normal path, that's like when you

naar college kwam op 18 en op 21 werd gegradueerd, in plaats van naar college

went to college on the 18th and graduated on the 21st, instead of going to college

op, je weet, 30.

oh, you know, 30.

En op 35 of wat het was, denk je, oh mijn god, ik zou zo veel meer kunnen hebben gedaan.

And at 35 or whatever it was, you think, oh my god, I could have done so much more.

Maar als je dan op dat moment reflecteert, denk je, misschien heb ik meer geleerd

But when you reflect at that moment, you think, maybe I have learned more.

door wat ik deed tijdens die 10 jaar dan ik had gehad op college.

by what I did during those 10 years that I had in college.

Ja.

Yes.

Maar om terug te gaan naar de doelorientatie, zeker, er is een aspect van dat, ik denk,

But to return to the goal orientation, certainly, there is an aspect of that, I think,

dat nog steeds in me zit, dat zegt, je bent een beetje laat begonnen, dus je moet

that still lingers in me, that says, you're a bit late to start, so you have to

beter doorgaan en er zo veel van uitkomen als je kan.

better to keep going and make as much of it as you can.

Ja.

Yes.

At whatever age you are.

Ja.

Yes.

En talking about leadership and leadership development and everything you do, how did

And talking about leadership and leadership development and everything you do, how did

you end it exactly up in that domain?

Do you end up exactly in that domain?

Because you said earlier that you were interested in communication, that you were

interested in group dynamics.

Yeah.

What makes it so interesting for you to work that closely together?

What makes it so interesting for you to work so closely together?

On the human issues in companies?

Well, when you join a large organization, if you're anyway, let's put it this way, conscious

Well, when you join a large organization, if you're anyway, let's put it this way, conscious.

to what's going on around you, you very quickly feel the nature of the leadership and how

the organization is run.

And if you're sensitive to that, you know, it's obvious.

It's either something that you're enjoying and you're getting something out of, or it's

something that you're thinking, you know, my God, this could be better.

Something that you're thinking, you know, my God, this could be better.

And, you know, I work in different parts of organizations.

And I'm, you know, I work for, and I observe people who are really well thought of by their

people, and I observed and worked for others who were not so well thought of.

people, and I observed and worked for others who were not so well regarded.

And I, you know, and then you can, you can get this feeling around both of these scenarios.

En ik, weet je, en dan kun je, je kunt dit gevoel krijgen rond beide van deze scenario's.

You think, well, this one is better than this one.

You think, well, this one is better than that one.

And the business results coming out of this one are better as well.

Why can't we have more of that?

Waarom kunnen we daar niet meer van hebben?

Yeah.

Hey, and, um, you've even written a book about it.

And there, there's a lovely quote that I also want to, to use all right now, uh, um, and, and

En daar is een mooi citaat dat ik ook wil, wil nu gebruiken, eh, um, en, en

that's where you say, uh, whooping, high-fiving project.

That's where you say, uh, whooping, high-fiving project.

Yeah.

And, uh, barista directed office, uh, office, coffee stations.

Yeah.

So you've, you've seen, you've seen a lot of, of companies from the inside.

So you've seen, you've seen a lot of companies from the inside.

Is this, is this how you, how you currently perceive certain companies?

Well, I think what, what's happened particularly in recent years, and particularly with the

Well, I think what has happened particularly in recent years, and particularly with the

advent of, of social media, and particularly with the advent of, uh, employees.

Uh, I mean, it was a bit of a provocative quote, you know, I mean, there's nothing wrong

Uh, ik bedoel, het was een beetje een provocerende quote, weet je, ik bedoel, er is niets mis mee.

with it.

I mean, it's great.

It's great to see CEOs joining their people and being part of it, but if that's all they're

It's great to see CEOs joining their people and being part of it, but if that's all they're doing...

doing, if that's not, if that's not a, a, a signal or a confirmation of greater change

inside of an organization, then it's just superficial nonsense.

binnen een organisatie, dan is het gewoon oppervlakkige onzin.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, we've had enough of that for years.

Yeah.

And do you think that organizations are, are sometimes creating misleading profiles then?

And do you think that organizations are sometimes creating misleading profiles then?

Well, I think it's, uh, I think it's slanted towards the happy.

Nou, ik denk dat het, uh, ik denk dat het neigt naar het gelukkige.

You know, um, why would an organization have to employ people in something called the

employer branding to give this particular view of the organization?

employer branding to provide this particular perspective of the organization?

Why can't the organization's reputation speak for itself?

Um, I, I just feel a little bit uncomfortable with the selective nature and the, the, the

almost, um, advertising type of, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh.

of algorithm that these people use to present their organization.

Um, so I, I just think that there, there, there's some room for, for, um, looking at,

Um, dus ik, ik denk gewoon dat er, er is wat ruimte voor, voor, um, kijken naar,

at how organizations are presenting themselves.

I mean, you know, the, the, the, um, the biggest or the most, um, constant and, and,

uh, obvious way to do that is, is, you know, people talking, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

Uh, an obvious way to do that is, is, you know, people talking, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

over hoe geweldig ze zijn, hun waarden zijn geweldig, hun sociale en corporatieve

about how amazing they are, their values are great, their social and corporate

verantwoordelijkheid is geweldig en ze doen dit en ze doen dat en het

Responsibility is great and they do this and they do that and it

allemaal lijkt een beetje repetitief en het allemaal lijkt een beetje hetzelfde.

Everything seems a bit repetitive and it all seems a bit the same.

Ja, dat brengt ons naar het onderwerp dat ik wilde

Yes, that brings us to the topic I wanted.

met u praten over. Je hebt een boek geschreven en je hebt het in 90 dagen gedaan.

talking to you about. You wrote a book and you did it in 90 days.

Nogmaals, ik was verblijft van het gehoor dat je een boek in 90 dagen schreef. Het was hetzelfde als

Once again, I was amazed to hear that you wrote a book in 90 days. It was the same as

wanneer je me vertelde dat je een marathon wilde leren en dat je er training voor had en dat je het wilde doen.

when you told me that you wanted to learn to run a marathon and that you had training for it and that you wanted to do it.

Nu zei je, ik heb een boek geschreven in 90 dagen en het heet

Now you said, I wrote a book in 90 days and it's called

Onboard en het is eigenlijk een boek, een guide met alles wat je moet weten over

Onboard, and it is actually a book, a guide with everything you need to know about.

het beginnen in een bedrijf. Daar beschrijf je

starting in a company. There you describe

veel over dat eerste ontmoeting met een boss.

a lot about that first meeting with a boss.

Je beschrijft ook hoe het volledig uitkomt in de leadership, wat je betreft als meningerfonds van werk.

You also describe how it completely fits into leadership, as far as you are concerned, as a opinion fund for work.

Misschien kun je ons een beetje uitvragen door je boek, want er zijn best een aantal ontwikkelingse

Maybe you can ask us a bit about your book, because there are quite a few developments.

onderwerpen daarin over het middensteemverzekering. Ik loving de bepalingen, maar misschien kun je het nog eens afleggen.

Subjects in it regarding the middle term insurance. I love the provisions, but maybe you can go over it again.

Describe a little bit about the book you've written.

Describe een beetje over het boek dat je hebt geschreven.

Right.

Correct.

And I mean, the first point, Walter, is, you know, why did I write this?

There's lots of books out there on starting out in your career and career advice and God knows what.

There are many books out there about starting your career and career advice and God knows what.

And I wanted to write something that was a little bit more, let's put it this way, a little bit more down to earth.

And I wanted to write something that was a little bit more, let’s put it this way, a little bit more down to earth.

And a little bit that would challenge people's thinking as they went into a large organization.

And a little bit that would challenge people's thinking as they entered a large organization.

So I wanted to avoid at all costs, like, you know, the idea that when you go into an organization, you should learn how to walk, talk, chew gum, fit in, be nice to your boss, keep your nose clean and you'll get there, all that stuff.

I wanted to be a little bit more realistic with regard to what.

I wanted to be a little bit more realistic regarding what.

What's really happening.

Wat er echt aan de hand is.

And what is it?

So, Elf, could you call this also a little bit based on your experience?

So, Elf, could you also call this a little bit based on your experience?

What you've seen?

What have you seen?

Well, I don't even have to dig much into my own experience.

I mean, because all of the employee engagement lives are flashing red.

I mean, because all of the employee engagement scores are flashing red.

Yeah.

I mean, the numbers are ridiculous.

I mean, I read somewhere recently that something like less than 20% of employees in the UK are really engaged in their work.

Ik bedoel, ik las onlangs ergens dat minder dan 20% van de werknemers in het VK echt betrokken is bij hun werk.

Yeah.

I mean, the situation.

Sorry, Walter.

No, no, no.

Go ahead, Elf.

Sorry.

You know, let's put it this way.

The statistical situation worldwide with regard to engagement, and, you know, there's different ways to measure it, is not good.

The statistical situation worldwide regarding engagement, and, you know, there are different ways to measure it, is not good.

It really isn't.

You know, if it was any other situation where the news you were getting, the numbers you were getting were so bad, you'd say, oh, I've got to do something about this.

You know, if it were any other situation where the news you were getting, the numbers you were getting were so bad, you would say, oh, I have to do something about this.

Yeah?

So that's one thing that's pushing us there.

Then the other thing that's pushing us there is personal experience.

You know, we meet, like I said, I've met great leaders, met lots of great leaders.

You meet happy employees.

You encounter happy employees.

You meet unhappy employees.

And much of the work that I do and my colleagues do, I think, if you just want to be anecdotal about it, would be that the pressure is greater on people today.

The conditions of work are perhaps not what they used to be.

And the security at work is not what it used to be.

And I think that's there.

En ik denk dat dat daar is.

And then if you want to take that to a wider lens, you know, look in society.

You know, the inequality in society today is greater than it's ever been.

You know, the inequality in society today is greater than it has ever been.

I don't want to go through all the numbers, but, I don't know, something like 1% of the world's richest people own more than the bottom 50%.

Yeah.

That kind of stuff is not sustainable.

And it's going to be reflected inside of organizations.

And it will be reflected within organizations.

And I just wanted to kind of, I don't want to say initiate that discussion, but provoke that discussion at a slightly deeper level.

Yeah.

So that's the thing behind that.

And then, Walter, with the book, I wanted to be very practical.

So I tried to take some aspects of organizational life that will...

Okay.

Well, in understanding it better will help people, you know, first of all, you know, choose the organization where they feel that they'll be, you know, best.

Well, understanding it better will help people, you know, first of all, choose the organization where they feel they will be, you know, best.

I don't want to say fit in best, but they feel they'll have a better chance.

So, you know, I talk about bosses, where they come from, you know, things that they say.

I tried to go a little bit from a philosophical introduction in each chapter to a very practical, you know, if your boss says this,

if he or she does this, well, then you need to really think, do you need to be there, et cetera, et cetera.

If he or she does this, well, then you really need to think, do you need to be there, etcetera, etcetera.

And we look at a whole variety of tips and tricks, you know, so it's not all philosophical.

There's a very practical ending to each chapter.

Er is een zeer praktische afsluiting voor elk hoofdstuk.

Yeah.

And you've written the book for which audience?

And for which audience have you written the book?

Well, it's, I mean, it's primarily aimed at people, you know, starting out.

But what I hear is people say to me, oh, it's quite useful for managers who are out there,

Maar wat ik hoor is dat mensen tegen me zeggen, oh, het is behoorlijk nuttig voor managers die buiten zijn,

because what they're getting is a reverse mirror view of what other people might be thinking.

So I hope that it'll go beyond the target group, which would be younger people starting out.

So I hope that it will go beyond the target group, which would be younger people starting out.

I would hope that, you know, more experienced managers would read it as well.

Ik zou hopen dat, je weet wel, meer ervaren managers het ook zouden lezen.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, of course, that is an interesting one.

I see your audience group as being the starters in a environment, a working environment, as being your audience.

I see your audience group as being the starters in an environment, a working environment, as being your audience.

If you read the book, it's very reflective, as you say to yourself as well, operating within that, within a specific environment.

If you read the book, it's very reflective, as you also tell yourself, operating within that, within a specific environment.

Yeah, it's funny.

I had somebody, I was talking to somebody yesterday, and he said to me, oh, God, you know, you say that, you know,

Ik had iemand, ik sprak gisteren met iemand, en hij zei tegen me, oh, God, weet je, je zegt dat, je weet,

my door is always open is a favorite phrase of many managers.

"My door is always open" is a favorite phrase of many managers.

And I've been saying it for years.

And now I'm thinking, oh, my God, you know.

En nu denk ik, oh mijn god, je weet wel.

Yeah, after you read your book, after you read your book, and then you're not allowed to use it anymore.

It's like, well, I mean, you know, in many ways, it's a positive phrase.

Het is zoals, nou ja, ik bedoel, je weet wel, op veel manieren is het een positieve uitdrukking.

Yeah.

But in other ways, what it does is, it's kind of an abdication of responsibility.

Maar op andere manieren is wat het doet, het is een soort afschuiving van verantwoordelijkheid.

You know.

If I say to you, my door is always open, Walter, and you're my employee.

What I'm saying is, the problem is yours.

You better come to me.

Yeah, yeah.

When I should be much more proactive.

I should be much more embracing of the conflicts and problems and, you know, challenges that people are facing.

What I'm doing is by saying that is I'm almost excluding myself into my own office.

What I'm doing by saying that is I'm almost excluding myself into my own office.

You know.

And I just, I always found that saying to be a little bit, well, more than superficial.

En ik vond die uitspraak altijd een beetje, nou, meer dan oppervlakkig.

Yeah, yeah.

And it doesn't give people confidence.

You know what I mean?

Do you know what I mean?

No.

No, it's the same as you say about, is your boss in the business or is he on the business?

Right.

And that's a great phrase from one of the, you know, my favorite author in business, a guy called Michael Gerber.

And that's a great phrase from one of my favorite authors in business, a guy named Michael Gerber.

Who wrote the E-Myth series.

Who wrote the E-Myth series?

You know, one of the great thinkers.

He originally set out to look at small business and he's written a series of wonderful books.

And this is Michael Gerber's phrase.

And I just think it's a wonderful articulation of what it means to become a manager.

You know, we all start out as software engineers or, you know, specialists in IT or whatever it might be.

And someday somebody taps us on the shoulder and say, would you like to be the team leader?

And someday somebody taps us on the shoulder and says, would you like to be the team leader?

Would you like to be a manager?

And what people don't realize is that your job description is changing completely from working in the business.

I.e. dealing with the everyday challenges of your function.

I.e. het omgaan met de dagelijkse uitdagingen van je functie.

To working on the business.

To work on the business.

I.e. constructing the context for other people to succeed.

I.e. constructing the context for others to succeed.

And so many managers don't understand that.

You know, Gerber's genius was to capture that in one phrase.

And it's something that it really makes people think.

And it's something that really makes people think.

Yeah.

Hey, and now you also describe when you're entering a corporate environment.

And you have beautiful credentials.

You have a master's degree in whatever.

That when you start in a working environment, that degree that you have, that beautiful resume.

Still makes sense.

But it is not leading you in your position at work.

Maar het leidt je niet in je functie op het werk.

So I've read something about, fuck the degree.

Because you need to prove yourself all over again.

Omdat je jezelf opnieuw moet bewijzen.

Well, yeah.

Well, yes.

I mean, you know, I think people need to really be thoughtful about this.

You know, you go to college.

You might come out with a PhD.

It's a huge amount of work.

You'll know something about a small slice of life.

You know, more about that than practically anybody else on the planet.

You know more about that than practically anyone else on the planet.

But you go to an organization.

And quite honestly, nobody cares.

You know, nobody cares.

You know, you don't get any plaudits for showing up with your PhD or your master's or whatever.

You know, you don't get any praise for showing up with your PhD or your master's or whatever.

Even though inside of us we feel like we deserve it.

Yeah.

Which is fine.

So I just want to warn people.

It doesn't matter what your credentials are.

When you work for money inside of an organization, you know, your job is to create value.

And don't get stranded in the notion that, you know, I'm the best qualified person around here.

And don't get stuck in the idea that, you know, I'm the best qualified person around here.

And therefore, you know, people should respect me, et cetera.

And therefore, you know, people should respect me, etc.

That really doesn't matter.

It matters in the sense of your knowledge, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

It matters in the sense of your attitude of getting stuff done at work.

It matters in terms of your attitude towards getting things done at work.

It can be to some people detrimental.

It can be detrimental to some people.

You know, I have met some people myself who kind of expressed amazement that they weren't getting more respect because of their wonderful qualifications.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that.

No, no.

And probably you're one of the first quoting a Liverpool football manager, Jurgen Klopp.

And probably you're one of the first to quote a Liverpool football manager, Jurgen Klopp.

To say it's better to learn the lesson during the game than talk about it afterwards.

It's better to learn the lesson during the game than to talk about it afterwards.

Why did you use that in your book?

Waarom heb je dat in je boek gebruikt?

Yeah, I mean, I just think it's a great phrase.

Ja, ik bedoel, ik vind het gewoon een geweldige zin.

I just think, you know, this was off the cuff from Klopp.

I just think, you know, this was spontaneous from Klopp.

He's sitting there, you know, doing an interview after a game.

And some reporter asked him a question.

He comes out with this, you know, we learn as we go.

You know, we don't have to hold a seminar afterwards.

I just think it's a wonderful notion.

And the idea of teams today.

You know, I looked at sport.

You know, I looked at sports.

If you look at sport, the advancement of science in sport is astonishing.

Team performance.

Look at Barcelona FC, Bayern, Manchester City, Liverpool.

The approach they have to team performance is, I mean, it's astonishing.

It's like science fiction.

I look at organizations and I look at, what have organizations learned about teams in the last, you know, 50 years?

I look at organizations and I look at what organizations have learned about teams in the last, you know, 50 years?

I mean, I can walk into an organization tomorrow.

And I can work in, you know, a big organization, different departments.

And every department I go to will have a different way of approaching how they work with their teams.

And, you know, teams are the value creating unit of every organization.

And, you know, teams are the value-creating unit of every organization.

And I'm often, you know, dumbfounded that CEOs don't pay more interest in the front line application of getting work done.

And I'm often, you know, dumbfounded that CEOs don't pay more attention to the front line application of getting work done.

You know, the tip of the spear are the people out there working, whatever they're doing.

You know, the separation between senior management and the structure and quality of the teamwork that they employ is amazing.

You know, the separation between senior management and the structure and quality of the teamwork they use is amazing.

I mean, you can, like I say, in a large organization, you can go to department X and they might have read, I don't know, Patrick Lenconi's wonderful books and they go with that.

I mean, you can, like I say, in a large organization, you can go to department X and they might have read, I don't know, Patrick Lencioni's wonderful books and they go with that.

And somebody else might have read somebody else's book and they want to go with that.

And someone else might have read someone else's book and they want to go with that.

Now, I think if we paid more attention and if CEOs and top management thought about it a little bit more and came closer,

to the front line with regard to how they structure their work, they could find something that's reasonably optimal for them.

to the front line regarding how they structure their work, they could find something that’s reasonably optimal for them.

And I think in the book I mentioned that, you know, Google has started to look at this.

And they started to look at how their best teams function.

Yeah, they don't only analyze the outside world but also their inside world.

Yeah, they don't just analyze the outside world but also their inner world.

They do. And they're applying data and they're applying, you know, science to getting this stuff done.

Dat doen ze. En ze passen data toe en ze passen, je weet wel, wetenschap toe om dit allemaal voor elkaar te krijgen.

And if there's a really, if there is a best way to do it, maybe there's not.

And if there is really, if there is a best way to do it, maybe there isn't.

I mean, there'll always be variations.

I mean, there will always be variations.

But then they want to find it.

Maar dan willen ze het vinden.

Other organizations are not in the slightest bit interested.

You know, go back to Jurgen Klopp.

Where is Jurgen Klopp when his team is performing?

He's on the bloody touchline.

Hij staat daar verdomme langs de zijlijn.

He's there, right?

You know, you ask most CEOs about, what's your team strategy?

You know, if you ask most CEOs about their team strategy?

They will kind of look at you like, what do you mean?

Ze zullen een beetje naar je kijken van, wat bedoel je?

So I just feel that I think we're going to have teams as being the main work units in most organizations for a long time to come.

So I just feel that I think we're going to have teams as the main work units in most organizations for a long time to come.

And I just think we need to shorten the space between senior management and the frontline teams.

And I just think we need to shorten the distance between senior management and the frontline teams.

And then we need to really take some lessons from sports and start applying more data,

And then we really need to take some lessons from sports and start applying more data.

more analytics, along with all of the other good stuff.

You know, I always talk about two things in teams, spirit and structure.

You have to have both.

You can't just have one or the other.

And I think if there's a mistake made these days, you know, most organizations want to spend money on spirit.

You know, let's go and make sure everybody has a great two-day team workshop.

And they really don't have enough structure built in.

Does that also have a lot to do with being authentic?

Well, I think, you know, authentic applies everywhere.

As an organization, not as a boss or an employee, but as an organization?

Well, you know, authenticity, this notion of being real and not simply being, you know...

Yeah.

Somebody who occupies a role is important in all aspects.

You know, I think the more authentic the senior group are, the more of this kind of stuff will be considered.

You know, I think the more authentic the senior group is, the more of this kind of stuff will be considered.

So, yeah, you know, authenticity and honesty and having people who are prepared to listen

So, yeah, you know, authenticity and honesty and having people who are willing to listen.

and have an interchange with all levels of the organization.

and have an exchange with all levels of the organization.

You know, that's part of pretty much all success.

Yeah.

The purpose driven organization.

The purpose-driven organization.

Well, I mean, you know, purpose is another word that's floating around out there.

And, you know, sometimes it's seen as the answer to everything.

Yeah.

You know, get your purpose and, you know, life is going to be great and blah, blah, blah.

You know, find your purpose and, you know, life is going to be great and blah, blah, blah.

Well, it's not.

Nou, dat is het niet.

And there's different theories of this.

And there are different theories about this.

There's different, you know, purpose as opposed to what.

Er is een ander, weet je, doel in tegenstelling tot wat.

For years, we organizations, you know, led by so-called mission, vision and values.

For years, we organizations, you know, have been led by so-called mission, vision, and values.

And I would say the values thing has been a bit of a disaster.

In fact, I think...

And why is that, Alf?

En waarom is dat, Alf?

Why is the values thing a bit of a disaster?

Because I don't think most...

Omdat ik denk dat de meeste...

I don't think most managers really understand this very vague word that comes from anthropology.

You know, values.

Everybody's got them.

Iedereen heeft ze.

They all look the same.

But when you get inside of organizations and hear people talk about them,

But when you get inside organizations and hear people talk about them,

there is a great disconnect to...

To the reality of everybody's daily life.

And I do dig...

I mean, I don't want to mention names here, but I do look at a couple of companies in the book.

Where they had, you know, sets of values.

Waar ze, je weet wel, sets van waarden hadden.

I mean, the banking industry, Walter, was of course famous for this.

You know, one famous bank after the 2008 financial catastrophe outlined 13 values for their people to follow.

Yeah.

But where the hell can you...

Maar waar de hell kun je...

Who can remember 13 values?

Yeah?

What does it mean?

I don't know.

Ik weet het niet.

I mean, if I see integrity written on a piece of paper or a plastic card once more,

I think I'm going to be sick.

I dacht dat ik ziek ging worden.

Most of these things are so far away from people.

And they're seen very often as being some kind of window dressing.

And they are often seen as some kind of window dressing.

They tend not to be unique.

And the real problem is that, I get this in the book,

And the real problem is that I get this in the book,

is that management boards don't really have them on their agenda.

No, and you make a nice comparison with giving labor.

No, and you make a nice comparison with giving birth.

If you take your wife to the hospital, or she needs to give birth to a child,

and over the door you see the phrase that they will take care not to drop babies,

Yeah, sure.

So they are very vigilant.

Then you start wondering.

And what we do with values, if I understand you correctly,

is we're doing right this.

Is we doing this right?

We put in the hospital, in the maternity area,

We were placed in the hospital, in the maternity area.

we love babies and avoid dropping them at all times.

We love babies and avoid dropping them at all times.

Well, what I'm trying to say is that,

do we need financial institutions particularly to tell us that they're not going to steal from us?

Do we need financial institutions particularly to tell us that they're not going to steal from us?

If you're an institution and you say we value integrity,

basically what you're saying is, we're honest people here, guys.

Basically what you're saying is, we're honest people here, guys.

If I go down to my local Metzger here in Munich,

If I go down to my local butcher here in Munich,

my local butcher shop,

and I ask the butcher for a kilo of mincemeat,

and I ask the butcher for a kilo of minced meat,

and he whispers to me,

en hij fluistert tegen me,

Hey Alf, this mincemeat is fresh.

Hey Alf, dit gehakt is vers.

It's not two weeks old at all.

I'm going to go, what the hell are you talking about?

Look, I'm exaggerating this,

but if we hear this repetition,

the massive overlap of so-called values between organizations.

Everybody talks about innovation.

Iedereen spreekt over innovatie.

Well, what the hell does that mean?

Everybody talks about integrity.

Iedereen praat over integriteit.

Everybody talks about honesty, respect, etc.

Iedereen praat over eerlijkheid, respect, enzovoort.

The more of this we see,

the more employee engagement is going down.

the more employee engagement is decreasing.

So, you know, how do we start to cut through this?

Well, what has become certainly popular in recent years,

Well, what has certainly become popular in recent years,

is the idea of purpose.

So people are saying, well, you know, values are great and everything,

but let's get it all together inside of this notion

maar laten we alles samenbrengen binnen deze opvatting.

of purpose.

And if we get our purpose right,

well then, you know, things are going to be good.

Well then, you know, things are going to be good.

So, you know, is there a problem with that?

Well, purpose is like everything else.

It would be as good as the understanding people have of it,

It would be as good as the understanding people have of it.

and their ability to make it real for those around them.

And, you know, what organizations who embrace purpose are asking,

And, you know, what organizations that embrace purpose are asking,

are asking you to do is,

they're asking you to basically write your own story.

They're asking you to basically write your own story.

You know, what are you bringing to the organization?

Who are you?

Please come to us and tell us all of these stories.

And by doing so, build a greater commitment,

En door dit te doen, een grotere betrokkenheid opbouwen,

both to the organization and to the people around you.

Now, so we do that.

And that's a wonderful thing.

But it really puts the organization in a position of great responsibility.

If they don't live up then to the purpose that they espouse,

what you've got is a whole bunch of people

who have really gone to a very deep personal level of commitment,

who have truly reached a very deep personal level of commitment,

and they will feel more than let down

if the organization doesn't hold up their side of the bargain.

if the organization doesn't uphold their side of the bargain.

So I think that's very, very important.

You know, the deeper you ask people to go,

the greater your responsibility to make sure that,

number one, you go there with them,

and number two,

you maintain and you steward an organization

you maintain and you manage an organization

that's going to serve them afterwards.

In the old days, when people had a mission, vision, and values,

they wrote the story.

They said, here's our mission, here's our values,

They said, here is our mission, here are our values,

here's our vision, do you buy it?

And you go, yeah, it looks okay to me.

Now, that meant you weren't actually being asked

Now, that meant you weren't actually being asked.

to make this massive personal commitment.

But you know, Walter, and I know,

Maar jij weet het, Walter, en ik weet het,

when the purpose came along, the opposite happened.

You were asked to make this massive,

personal, emotional commitment to the organization.

And what I'm saying is,

if the organization can't keep their end of the bargain

long term on that,

well, they're going to damage people.

Well, they're going to harm people.

People are going to feel betrayed.

And I think that's an extremely important part

And I think that's an extremely important part.

of the whole purpose debate.

And if you look to purpose on the one side,

And if you look to purpose on one side,

there's also something like a culture,

within a company.

And you called it, culture is like the weather.

What is the role of culture?

Is that different from purpose?

The culture is there whether you want it or not.

The culture is like the weather.

It's going to be influenced by the organization.

It will be influenced by the organization.

So it might be good weather, it might be horrible weather.

You know, if we keep it really simple,

you've got a great CEO and a great board of directors

You have a great CEO and a great board of directors.

and a great senior management team

who are very purposeful,

i.e. they see themselves as a group of people

who are serving others.

And that's what purpose is about.

En daar gaat het bij doel om.

It's not about you.

It's about you plus other people.

And if you look at the definition of

a guy called Dr. William Damon,

I use in the book,

you know, purpose is not a fluffy thing.

You know, purpose is not a fluffy thing.

It's about really your effect outside of yourself.

It's really about your effect outside of yourself.

And if you have that kind of organization,

that kind of leadership,

dat soort leiderschap,

then you're going to have a great culture.

Then you're going to have a great culture.

If you don't,

you're not going to have a great culture.

We are living in special times currently,

with the corona crisis all around us.

How will that influence the transformation

How will that influence the transformation?

within companies?

Will something change and transform?

Well, you know, every time is a special time.

You know, it's not World War III.

Will it have a long-term effect

Will it have a long-term effect?

in how we treat each other?

I think organizations will follow society.

And I think if society to some extent gets redefined

And I think if society is redefined to some extent

by what's going on today,

then organizations will have to follow suit.

Then organizations will have to follow suit.

If society does not get redefined,

if we go back to the same old way,

I think I mentioned earlier,

1% of the people in the world owning,

whatever it is,

wat het ook is,

40% of the wealth,

well then,

that's going to be replicated inside of organizations.

dat gaat binnen organisaties gerepliceerd worden.

I mean, you know,

Ik bedoel, je weet wel,

we saw the debate in America recently

We saw the debate in America recently.

about share buybacks.

And certain companies looking now

for handouts from government,

even though it's a proven fact

that they've inflated

that they’ve inflated

their share price and their bonuses

hun aandelenprijs en hun bonussen

through buying their own shares

door het terugkopen van hun eigen aandelen

over the last 10 years.

Now, nobody did anything over the last 10 years

Now, nobody did anything over the last 10 years.

to prevent that.

And now all the politicians are saying,

"And now all the politicians are saying,"

of course, it was a terrible idea.

Of course, it was a terrible idea.

So, society, organization,

these two things work hand in glove together.

These two things work hand in glove together.

And one won't change without the other.

Yeah.

Although you sometimes have the feeling,

you say that society is the driving force,

sometimes you have the feeling

that from the larger corporates,

that from the larger corporations,

they try to influence society

to move in a certain direction.

Well, if they're buying their own shares,

they certainly are,

ze zijn zeker.

they can be influential.

Of course they can be.

Large corporates can be very, very influential

Large corporates can be very, very influential.

on, on, um,

how they treat people who work for them,

hoe ze mensen behandelen die voor hen werken,

how they distribute and redistribute wealth

that they create inside of society.

that they create within society.

Um, and of course that's important.

And, you know, some companies are great.

I mean, one great example of that

that's used frequently these days

dat wordt tegenwoordig vaak gebruikt

is a guy called Paul Polman,

is a guy named Paul Polman,

who worked at Unilever,

who set very challenging organizational targets

around stuff that,

that perhaps other people haven't seen,

around sustainability, for instance.

Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, he's held up as an exemplar.

En, je weet, hij wordt als een voorbeeld gespeeld.

There's not that many of them.

Er zijn er niet zo veel van.

Um, but there you had one person

Um, but there you had one person.

who made it work,

both economically and,

you know, in every way,

both in the sustainable way

beide op een duurzame manier

and the shareholder value way.

But, you know, Walter,

Maar, weet je, Walter,

the, the premise of organizations

is changing a little bit.

And I did write in the book about,

you know, Milton Friedman,

no such thing as a free lunch,

there's no such thing as a free lunch,

and that organizations have been run

and that organizations have been managed

purely on the shareholder value,

uh, approach for, for many years,

you know, for the last 50 years,

based on, very much on, on

the economics of, of, of, of that time.

Uh, that's changed now.

Uh, that has changed now.

I mean, it's changing.

Let's put it that way.

But, you know,

Maar, je weet wel,

a meeting happened last August.

A meeting happened last August.

It hasn't been very well reported,

but I did read about,

I think it's the American Business Roundtable met,

I think it's the American Business Roundtable meeting.

and that's like the top,

don't ask me, 300 CEOs.

Don't ask me, 300 CEOs.

Yeah.

And they officially in their minutes,

uh, said that they, they, they,

they want to move away now

They want to move away now.

from pure shareholder value

to stakeholder value.

Mm-hmm.

So it's not just the owners

So it's not just the owners.

of the business who are going to benefit,

of the businesses that are going to benefit,

but all the stakeholders.

So employees, management, suppliers,

you know, people who live down the road,

you know, the people who live down the road,

society in general.

And that's a major change.

Um, so, so what that will do,

hopefully, is help organize,

you know, help organizations

and society redefine themselves

in line with that kind of thinking.

in lijn met dat soort denken.

Um.

Yeah, I, I, I,

I, I hope that that will happen,

Alfred.

If you look to the,

to the Starbuckses of this world,

or any other company

of any other company

that tried to avoid paying taxes

in a certain country,

uh, and, and setting up

all kind of legal constructions

all kinds of legal constructions

to profit from,

to benefit from,

or to, to have benefits from,

um, from, from, you know,

um, van, van, je weet wel,

their, their, their ability

to avoid, uh, paying taxes,

that, that's not living purpose.

That, that's not living purpose.

Well, I don't know.

I mean, you know,

if there's a legal way

to avoid tax, everybody does it.

To avoid tax, everyone does it.

I, I think it, it's,

I think it has to go beyond that, Walter.

It has to go into, into a,

a mentality and a way

of, uh, a way of thinking about,

um, organizations in the 21st century

that go beyond having smart accountants

to get you out of, of, of,

of paying X or Y.

I mean, if it's legal, it's legal.

End of story.

Yeah.

Um.

As long as you're not doing anything illegal.

But the attitude change has,

Maar de houding is veranderd,

has to, has to really go beyond that.

Has to happen.

Yeah.

Hey, Alf, you,

you tell a very nice story

if you talk about, uh,

If you talk about, uh,

agility in an organization

about, uh, Christopher

over, eh, Christopher

who met Isabella.

And with Christopher,

you mean Christopher Columbus.

You mean Christopher Columbus.

And Isabella,

you talk about the,

the queen of Spain.

Yeah.

Could you,

could you take us

a little bit in that story?

Because it is,

Omdat het is,

for me, uh, resembling

the way you use,

you know, stories

to convey a message.

Yeah, I,

I mean, you know,

Ik bedoel, je weet wel,

I've always been a,

a fan of storytelling.

I mean, you know,

let's, let's be fair,

Walter, business books

can be pretty boring.

kan behoorlijk saai zijn.

Uh,

uh,

business books can be

pretty boring things.

Yeah, yeah.

If we're not careful.

So I wanted to bring

a little bit more color

to this.

I wanted to bring

I wanted to bring.

a little bit more,

um,

uh,

of a storytelling,

a slightly different

storytelling technique.

So I used this idea,

you know,

we, we talk about

start-ups today.

Um,

and of course,

you know,

Columbus had a bit

Columbus had a bit.

of a start-up.

Um,

and he wanted

to go somewhere.

And he wanted,

he wanted to get

something done.

iets gedaan.

And he needed financing.

So he got it

Dus hij heeft het gekregen.

and,

and off he went

and he was away

for whatever it was,

11 weeks.

11 weken.

Uh,

uh,

and he,

you know,

his,

his sponsor,

his angel investor,

couldn't contact him.

And I just,

I find it interesting,

like,

what might she

have said to him

when he came back?

wanneer hij terugkwam?

You know,

if you're an investor,

you're looking at your

investment today,

Walter,

you know,

some tech start-up,

you know,

how are we doing?

All day,

night,

or whatever.

In those days,

In die dagen,

you had no choice.

You know,

okay,

we'll pay for your ship

or whatever,

off you go.

Away you go.

So,

you know,

Columbus comes back

Columbus returns

and he pulls into

And he pulls into

somewhere near Lisbon

ergens nabij Lissabon

and,

you know,

she,

he must have went to see her

he must have gone to see her

and she,

you know,

couldn't call her.

kon haar niet bellen.

And she said,

well,

how did it go,

Christopher?

And he probably said,

En hij zei waarschijnlijk,

well,

not bad,

the employees have the experience

of their managers

saying to them,

you know,

yeah,

sure,

great,

groot,

that's your project,

dat is jouw project,

off you go.

And then coming back,

you know,

some time later

and the question you get is,

how did it go?

How did it go?

And the question,

you know,

the answer is,

not much,

not many.

That most managers today

have all the means they need

to kind of,

to sort of,

you know,

pester you

bother you

or check up on you

or harass you

or wherever you want to put it

of waar je het ook maar wilt neerzetten

and,

where are you,

you know,

how is it going?

How is it going?

And I just find it

kind of an interesting analogy.

Kind of an interesting analogy.

How do we build this ocean

How do we build this ocean?

of space between people?

And,

you know,

what organizational structures

might enable that?

zou dat mogelijk maken?

And I like,

I found this quote

Ik vond deze quote.

at the beginning

which accidentally fitted into

the Columbus-Isabella story.

It's from Peter Senge

It's from Peter Senge.

and he says it very nicely.

He says,

the neglected leadership role

is the designer of the ship.

is de ontwerper van het schip.

Yeah.

And I thought,

that's nice.

Dat is leuk.

So,

I did two things here.

I looked at organizational structure

I looked at the organizational structure.

from the past

and organizational structure

en organisatorische structuur

from the future

and where are we now?

And then I looked at leadership

And then I looked at leadership.

and,

you know,

I honed in on purpose

I focused on purpose.

even though,

you know,

I can be a little bit skeptical.

It needs to be proven.

And I said,

if we could bring

these two things together,

a purpose-driven organization

with people

who really embrace that,

indeed,

that would be

dat zou zijn

a very good organization.

And I said,

if we could bring

these two things together,

into a structure,

in een structuur,

i.e.

the designation

of responsibilities

to various people

to verschillende mensen

inside of an organization,

and Agile came out

and Agile emerged

as the most promising structure

we have today.

we hebben vandaag.

So, I thought,

if we marry those two concepts together,

would that advance us

in our quest

for a greater pace to work

and more engaged employees

en meer betrokken werknemers

and more engaged society

around organizations

and all of that good stuff?

and all of those good things?

And I think,

probably,

the answer is yes,

if we can make that work.

als we dat kunnen laten werken.

Yeah.

Elf,

Eleven,

how do you stay healthy

How do you stay healthy?

in an organization?

Because there's something

Omdat er iets is

said that

the person you report to

is more important

than your family doctor.

Exactly.

So,

I think,

if we can make that work,

I think,

we can make that work.

We can make that work.

Elf,

how do you stay healthy

in an organization?

Because,

there's something

said that

is more important

than your family doctor.

And why is that?

You know,

there's an awful lot of talk

er is een heleboel gepraat

about stress,

Walter,

these days.

There's an awful lot of talk

Er is ontzettend veel gepraat.

about passion.

There's an awful lot of talk

Er is een enorme hoeveelheid gepraat.

about emotions

in organizations,

mental health,

everything.

alles.

And it's all good.

It's time we got there.

Het is tijd dat we daar aankomen.

You know,

we all know that

we allemaal weten dat

I've worked extensively

Ik heb uitgebreid gewerkt.

in the renewable energy business,

in de hernieuwbare energiebedrijf,

you know,

offshore teams,

guys,

building,

you know,

massive wind farms

around the world,

power stations,

all that.

alles dat.

And,

you know,

these guys have been fantastic

in coming up

with wonderful ways

met wonderlijke manieren

to protect,

you know,

health and safety.

gezondheid en veiligheid.

And it's brilliantly organized

En het is briljant georganiseerd.

from both

an equipment perspective

and a leadership perspective.

en een leiderschaps perspectief.

And,

you know,

we owe those people a lot.

We owe those people a lot.

Of course,

what's less obvious

is mental health

and stress.

en stress.

And,

you know,

there's so many books

there are so many books

on stress out there.

There's so many different theories

Er zijn zoveel verschillende theorieën.

about stress out there.

over stress daarbuiten.

You know,

is stress good for you?

Is stress good for you?

Is it bad for you?

Is distress good for you?

Et cetera,

et cetera.

and so on.

I just go on a little bit.

I just continue a little bit.

I mean,

my,

you know,

I straight up,

I'm straight up,

I say it in the book,

I'm not a health professional.

Ik ben geen gezondheidsprofessional.

But I talk to people

Maar ik praat met mensen.

about the aspect of control.

And control is very much

And control is very much.

about your relationship

over je relatie

with your leader.

met je leider.

To what extent

are you permitted

are you allowed

to get on with stuff?

to get on with things?

And to what extent

are you being interrupted?

Are you being interrupted?

And to what extent

are you being,

are you being

uh,

judged and evaluated

beoordeeld en geëvalueerd

on an ongoing basis?

And how close

is your leader to you?

Is your leader to you?

And are you being

micromanaged

and all of that?

You know,

the idea

of control

doesn't mean

you have control

over every aspect

about every aspect

of what you're doing.

of wat je aan het doen bent.

But at least

Maar in ieder geval

you've got a say in it.

you have a say in it.

If you ask somebody

to do something,

and then you take away

en dan neem je weg

their authority

hun autoriteit

and you take away

any control

over their own outcome,

well,

then what you're doing

dan wat je aan het doen bent

is you're putting them

in a very,

very vulnerable

situation

that can have

detrimental effects

detrimentale effecten

on their,

uh,

mental health.

The other thing I,

I,

I think I rant

a little bit

about this,

uh,

you know,

I take two words,

uh,

Walter.

I take a word

I take a word.

called passion

and a word

called professional.

And,

um,

I,

I try to juxtapose

I try to juxtapose.

these two words.

And,

you know,

I,

I take passion

I take passion.

everywhere I look

in organizational life

and I very rarely

see the word

professional.

And,

and I wonder

en ik vraag me af

sometimes

soms

about that.

Um,

you know,

passion

against this idea

tegen dit idee

when we go back

wanneer we teruggaan

to purpose

is about,

you're meant to be

je bent bedoeld om te zijn

giving something

very deeply

for you

voor jou

from,

from yourself.

You're meant to be

Je bent bedoeld om te zijn

investing something

that,

that you own

that makes you

vulnerable

in front of others,

i.e.

passion.

Uh,

and,

you know,

how well are we

managing that?

And,

and I,

I see it everywhere.

I see people talking

I see people talking.

about passion

and wondering,

en zich afvragend,

you know,

really?

Really?

Is the organization

supporting this

or how do we talk

about this

or how do we

understand this?

Do you understand this?

Um,

I mean,

I ask a pretty

stupid question

in the book.

And the question is,

is passion

a professional

police officer

or a professional

police officer?

And if you look

at New York City's

NYPD police force

NYPD politie

on the side

of their cars,

there's something

written,

courtesy,

professionalism,

respect.

No mention

of passion.

Would you rather

share an office

with a passionate

person

or,

or a,

a professional

person?

Look,

I'm just teasing

Ik maak maar een grapje.

about this.

Uh,

it's not an easy

it's not easy

thing to fake.

Yeah?

It's a very easy

It's very easy.

thing to fake.

Uh,

professionalism

is not an easy

thing to fake.

Um,

do I want

a passionate banker

or do I want

a professional banker?

I don't know.

Ik weet het niet.

I just want to,

I just,

you know,

sometimes I see,

I see leaders

Ik zie leiders.

talking about passion

and what they're

en wat ze zijn

actually saying is,

what I actually mean is,

you know,

oh my god,

oh mijn god,

you've got to commit

je moet je committeren

yourself so much

to this organization

that,

you know,

you can play

for us,

you can do

all of this

extra,

whatever it is.

wat het ook is.

And I,

I just feel sometimes

it could be,

and I say could be,

a little bit exploitative

if we're not careful.

Yeah,

yeah.

Elfo,

Elf,

a,

a personal question.

So you've

wrote a book

in 90 days

with nine chapters.

met negen hoofdstukken.

Yeah.

How many

chapters could you,

could you have

written?

geschreven?

Well.

Because there's a lot,

omdat er veel is,

there's,

there's a lot to tell

you.

I mean,

Ik bedoel,

you don't,

I mean,

this is basically,

you know,

it's,

it's a primer.

het is een primer.

It's meant to,

Het is bedoeld om.

to,

um,

initiate conversations.

Um,

and,

I mean,

yeah,

I,

I'm not somebody

Ik ben niet iemand.

who really wants

to do surveys

to conduct surveys

and really wants

en wil echt

to collect data.

I'm much more

Ik ben veel meer.

raw than that.

Uh,

I'm somebody

Ik ben iemand.

who,

who wants to,

to,

to goes

to Orthodoxy

in many ways.

Uh,

you know,

if everybody is

talking about passion,

my immediate,

my immediate

response is,

The response is,

okay let me find out

okay laat me het uitzoeken

how bad this might be.

Uh,

no.

It's not to join in.

I'm,

I,

I'm not a joiner-inner.

Ik ben geen deelnemer.

I,

I

I tend to be somebody

Ik ben geneigd om iemand te zijn.

who's like,

I take the opposite

I take the opposite.

perspective.

Or how can we make

it better.

Um,

you know,

let's not over-talk

let's not talk too much

stuff.

En dat is een soort van extrovertie, een soort van extrovertie.

And that is a kind of extroversion, a kind of extroversion.

Een ongelooflijk concept.

An incredible concept.

Dus ja, ik ben een beetje afgerift van de hulp, veiligheid en werk.

So yes, I am a bit worn out from the help, safety, and work.

Ik bedoel, de laatste chapter van het boek.

I mean, the last chapter of the book.

Ik denk dat de bovenlijn daar is dat de echte dingen nooit veranderen.

I think the bottom line is that the real things never change.

Ik bedoel, ik praat over een man die Stutz Terkel heet.

I mean, I'm talking about a man named Studs Terkel.

Stutz Terkel was een Amerikaanse, eigenlijk was hij een sociaal historiën, een orale historiën.

Stutz Terkel was an American, he was actually a social historian, an oral historian.

Dus hij interviewde mensen, we praten nu van 60 jaar geleden.

So he interviewed people, we're talking about 60 years ago now.

En hij schreef een boekje op z'n hoofd, dus hij ging rond en vroeg mensen over werk.

And he wrote a little book on his head, so he went around and asked people about work.

En sindsdien hebben we allerlei soorten onderzoek gehad en niets verandert.

And since then we have had all kinds of research and nothing changes.

Weet je wat ik bedoel? Het is altijd over betekenis, ontwikkeling.

Do you know what I mean? It's always about meaning, development.

In alles wat je moet doen om mensen te helpen.

In everything you need to do to help people.

Ik vind dat de beste boek in de boek stond met Stutz Terkel,

I think it's the best book by Studs Terkel.

veel maanden geleden, voordat Daniel Pink of iemand anders ons over motivatie of betekenis vertelde.

many months ago, before Daniel Pink or anyone else told us about motivation or meaning.

Hij schreef, werk was over een zoek naar dagelijks betekenis,

He wrote, work was about a search for daily meaning.

zoals dagelijkse brood, voor herkenning, zoals geld.

like daily bread, for recognition, like money.

Voor toerpoer.

For tourist purposes.

In short, for a sort of life, rather than a Monday through Friday sort of dying.

In het kort, voor een soort leven, in plaats van een maandag tot vrijdag soort dood.

I mean, in that, he says everything.

You know, there's very little left.

All of the research we've had since is simply a confirmation of that.

That work should be challenging, should be meaningful, should be honest,

and should have a positive effect on the lives of other people.

Now, do you have to trumpet that trump?

Now, do you have to announce that trump?

Do you have to stand on the roof of your organization or write a set of values

Do you have to stand on the roof of your organization or write a set of values?

that say that we're doing all of these things?

Dat zegt dat we al deze dingen doen?

No, you don't.

You know, people have been working purposefully for centuries.

They've been waiting for somebody like me to tell them.

They've been waiting for someone like me to tell them.

And I've met those people.

And like I say, they tend to be reserved, they tend to be modest,

they tend to be decent, and they go about their lives,

and they have employees and people who work with them

who are having a great experience,

but don't feel the need to translate it into a passionate set of this, that, or the other.

Yeah.

If you know what I mean.

I know what you mean now.

What is your next book about?

Because it will not only stay with this book.

Because it will not only stop with this book.

You have a lot to tell.

You have a lot to say.

You write in a different kind of way.

You write in a different way.

You use a lot of...

You even mentioned in the book On Board

You even mentioned in the book On Board.

about a certain play with Bill Murray

about saying yes.

What is your next book about?

I don't know.

Ik weet het niet.

I mean, you know, my timing here wasn't too good, Walter.

That's because of the crisis we're in.

Dat komt door de crisis waarin we zitten.

Yeah, no, we're cool.

Ja, nee, we zijn cool.

But my book is going to be...

Maar mijn boek gaat...

It's probably on the worst global day of the coronavirus.

So it's probably the worst day for 500 years.

So it's probably the worst day in 500 years.

But no, it's fine.

Maar nee, het is prima.

I don't know.

Ik weet het niet.

I'm more of a talker than I am of a writer.

Ik ben meer een prater dan een schrijver.

But I found out one thing.

Maar ik ontdekte één ding.

I can actually write a book.

Whether it's any good or not, other people will judge.

But I can actually get something down that's reasonably original.

But I can actually come up with something that's reasonably original.

So I'm quite happy to be able to say to myself,

Oh my God, you can write a couple of hundred.

I didn't know that last year.

I know it now.

I think, by the way, you're too modest

I think, by the way, you're too modest.

looking at what you've written down.

looking at what you’ve written down.

Well, that's fine.

I appreciate that, Walter.

I mean, you know, it's the usual thing.

As soon as you finish something like this,

you kind of go,

Oh God, you know, why did I say that?

Or why did I say this?

Or why didn't I include this other thing?

But that's fine.

Maar dat is prima.

I mean, that's okay.

We all do the best we can at the time.

We doen allemaal ons best op dat moment.

We're all good.

We zijn allemaal goed.

We're in.

We zijn erin.

I really think,

and I believe this,

I really think that we need to

help organizations rethink

their place and their way of

doing business in this 21st century.

And we have made progress.

I think there's more progress to be made.

And I mean,

that's something I'll be doing over the next few years

Dat is iets wat ik de komende jaren zal doen.

when we get back to something like normality.

You know,

it's kind of,

het is soort van,

when I hear, you know,

wanneer ik hoor, weet je,

the banks and other people saying,

Oh, we need more culture change.

Oh, we need more cultural change.

We need more this, that, and the other.

We need more of this, that, and the other.

I think, fine.

But we need to be much more pragmatic

Maar we moeten veel pragmatischer zijn.

with regard,

you know,

change has become a throwaway word

in organizations.

It's,

you know,

that,

again,

is a word that's kind of,

oh, you know,

we can solve all our problems

We can solve all our problems.

with our next change program.

met ons volgende veranderprogramma.

No, we can't.

I mean, the real question is,

can we breed a new,

I don't want to say new form,

but a group of,

maar een groep van,

a new leadership cadre

that's coming through

dat komt door

who've really got a very different

approach

and a very different,

mentality

about what they want

out of their own lives

and what they want out of organizations

and what they want from organizations

and how that's going to work.

And, you know,

I believe writing this book

for people starting out

would be an attempt by me

zou een poging van mij zijn

to kind of,

to sort of,

I don't want to say kickstart that,

I don't want to say kickstart that.

but perhaps, you know,

maar misschien, je weet wel,

promote that a little bit more.

Yeah, yeah.

And maybe we've also heard now

And maybe we've also heard it now.

the title of your second book.

What's that?

Wat is dat?

Elf, what is your purpose

Elf, wat is jouw doel?

for yourself?

What is your driver?

My professional purpose is

I make what's important interesting.

I make what’s important interesting.

I think we've always known

I think we've always known.

what's been important.

We haven't always communicated it properly.

If you go back to StudCircle,

you know, the guy I quoted a while ago,

you know, he's no different.

You know, he's no different.

He's no different than any of the great

Hij is niet anders dan een van de groten.

philosophical thinkers over the ages.

philosophical thinkers throughout history.

We've always known what was important.

Now, how do we make that interesting to people

Now, how do we make that interesting to people?

instead of boring to people?

in plaats van mensen te vervelen?

You know, our educational structure is everything.

How do we make these things more,

not just practical,

but exciting and interesting?

And how do we convince people

And how do we convince people?

and persuade people

en overtuig mensen

that what we're talking about here,

and, you know,

you used the word purpose,

and I think, you know,

en ik denk, je weet wel,

and I used the word purpose as well

as part of this,

that this is the way to go.

There is something there.

How can we do that in a convincing,

How can we do that in a convincing way?

interesting way

that people would say,

okay, I get it.

Okay, I get it.

You know, the job of writers

is to convince people

there is a better way.

The job of corporate learning

is to convince people

there is a better way.

There is a better way.

The job of leadership

is to construct organizations

where that better way

waar is die betere weg

will have a container

that facilitates its success

and not prevents it.

and does not prevent it.

So that's where I see

the role of books

and podcasts

and everything else

en alles wat verder is

to help people genuinely get there.

to genuinely help people get there.

Not just superficially get there,

but genuinely get there.

And if we can do that,

I think we've done something

I think we've done something.

very, very useful indeed.

zeer, zeer nuttig inderdaad.

Alf, I would like to thank you

Alf, I would like to thank you.

for participating in the podcast.

I, again,

loved the book

and I loved this conversation.

I love your insights.

Ik hou van je inzichten.

I'm a fan.

So thank you for being my guest.

Thank you, Walter.

It was a pleasure.

And I hope to see you

And I hope to see you.

when this all dies down

wanneer dit allemaal is gaan liggen

very soon in Amsterdam.

Yeah, then we do it in real life

Yeah, then we do it in real life.

rather than doing it via the internet.

rather than doing it online.

Do we make a movie?

Are we making a movie?

That would be great.

Thanks, Alf.

Thank you, Alf.

Thank you, Walter.

Take care. Talk soon.

Bye-bye.

Goodbye.

TWC 03 : Alph Keogh about Whooping high fiving project teams (English)