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Deze week is met Nerds om tafel even iets anders dan je van ons gewend bent.

This week, Nerds at the Table is a little different from what you are used to.

We hebben namelijk niet één, maar drie afleveringen voor je.

We actually have not one, but three episodes for you.

Vanaf de Public Spaces Conferentie 2024 met als thema Taking Back the Internet.

From the Public Spaces Conference 2024 with the theme Taking Back the Internet.

In deze aflevering hoor je over AI in de samenleving en hoe je begrip kunt kweken door in andermans schoenen te lopen in mixed reality ervaringen.

In this episode, you will hear about AI in society and how you can cultivate understanding by stepping into someone else's shoes in mixed reality experiences.

Welkom bij Met Nerds om tafel.

Welcome to Met Nerds om tafel.

Ik zit opnieuw niet naast Jurrian, maar ik ben wel Randall Peelen en onze gastnerds van vandaag zijn er twee.

I am not sitting next to Jurrian again, but I am Randall Peelen and our guest nerds today are two.

De eerste is Hans de Zwart.

The first is Hans de Zwart.

We zijn nog steeds op de Public Spaces Conferentie 2024 met als thema Taking Back the Internet.

We are still at the Public Spaces Conference 2024 with the theme Taking Back the Internet.

Hans, je hebt hier vaker gezeten.

Hans, you have sat here more often.

Je bent voormalig directeur Bits Freedom, onderzoeker en docent aan de Hogeschool van Amsterdam.

You are a former director of Bits of Freedom, a researcher, and a lecturer at the Amsterdam University of Applied Sciences.

Bedankt voor je komst en leuk dat je er weer bent.

Thank you for coming and it's great to have you back.

Heel fijn om hier weer te zijn.

Very nice to be here again.

En je hebt net een panel meegedaan.

And you just participated in a panel.

Dat ging over, wat stond er ook alweer, de impact van AI op de maatschappij of op de samenleving.

That was about, what did it say again, the impact of AI on society or on the community.

Hoe noemden ze dat ook alweer?

What did they call that again?

Ik weet het niet eens, maar volgens mij ging het over de toekomst van AI en de rol die kunst daarbij kan spelen.

I don't even know, but I think it was about the future of AI and the role that art can play in that.

Nou, we hebben ook een kunstenares meegenomen.

Well, we also brought along an artist.

Dat is Karen Palmer.

That is Karen Palmer.

En ik moet jullie waarschuwen, met Nerds om de tafel luisteraars.

And I have to warn you, listeners of Nerds at the Table.

Jullie luisteren al zeven jaar naar ons, maar dit wordt de eerste keer dat wij in het Engels gaan praten.

You have been listening to us for seven years, but this will be the first time we will speak in English.

Want Karen.

Because Karen.

Karen Palmer spreekt niet Nederlands.

Karen Palmer does not speak Dutch.

Sorry.

Welkom in onze podcast en bedankt voor je komst als de eerste Engels sprekende gast die we eigenlijk

Welcome to our podcast and thank you for coming as the first English-speaking guest that we actually

nodig vonden om over te switchen naar Engels.

found it necessary to switch to English.

Omdat ik denk dat dit een interessant thema is dat we echt moeten aantrekken.

Because I think this is an interesting theme that we really need to embrace.

Dus bedankt voor je bijnaartoe.

So thank you for your almost there.

Maar bedankt voor je toegang tot mijn ongelukkige Nederlandse taal.

But thank you for your access to my unfortunate Dutch language.

Dus om je eigenlijk even te introduceren, Karen Palmer, je bent vermoedelijk

So to actually introduce you, Karen Palmer, you are presumably

een visionary storyteller en awardwinning XR-creator.

a visionary storyteller and award-winning XR creator.

XR, dat is Mixed Reality, right?

XR, that's Mixed Reality, right?

Yes, XR is Extended Reality.

Extended Reality.

Which includes Mixed Reality, Virtual Reality, AI, Augmented Reality.

Basically all forms of Extended Reality.

Ja, en als een AR-artist probeer je de sociale implicaties van de artificiële intelligentie en technologie te ontwikkelen

Yes, and as an AR artist, you try to develop the social implications of artificial intelligence and technology.

door een immersieve ervaring.

through an immersive experience.

Dat ben ik.

That's me.

Ja.

Yes.

En ik denk dat je waarschijnlijk het meest bekend bent omdat je een film of een film maakte

And I think you're probably best known for making a movie or a film.

of iets in het midden, Consensus Gentium.

or something in the middle, Consensus Gentium.

Gentium.

Goed gedaan in het proberen dat te zeggen en het is niet, het is Latins, dus het is niet

Well done in trying to say that and it's not, it's Latin, so it's not.

Engels of Duits.

English or German.

Dus Consensus Gentium is Latins voor als iedereen gelooft dat het waar moet zijn.

So Consensus Gentium is Latin for when everyone believes it must be true.

Oké.

Okay.

Dus het is een comment op onze samenleving en onze begrijping van de realiteit.

So it's a comment on our society and our understanding of reality.

En de Consensus-partij kan ik volgen.

And I can follow the Consensus party.

Ja, de Consensus is iedereen.

Yes, the Consensus is everyone.

Ja.

Yes.

En dat is een immersieve ervaring door AI te gebruiken, die je terugkijkt door artificiële

And that is an immersive experience using AI, looking back through artificial.

intelligentie en faciële herkenning te gebruiken.

to use intelligence and facial recognition.

En het is ingesteld in de toekomstige wereld, zodat je een wereld van pervasieve beveiliging

And it is set in the future world, so that you have a world of pervasive security.

kan ervaren en hoe het je als persoon en als bevrijder aanpakt.

can experience and how it approaches you as a person and as a liberator.

En het gebeurt binnen de hand van je hand op een smartphone.

And it happens within the palm of your hand on a smartphone.

Ja.

Yes.

Ja, ja, ja, ja.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Ja.

Yes.

Aanvangend, dus het feeste dat je op een smartphone aanpakt is door jezelf, als je interacteert

Starting, so the celebration that you handle on a smartphone is by yourself, when you interact.

met deze wereld op het apparaat.

with this world on the device.

Dus mensen grijpen je of je kijkt op propaganda-filmpjes van de regering of invloeders, en je hebt

So people grab you or you watch propaganda videos from the government or influencers, and you have

een bepaalde toegevoegde om uit te voeren van je vergunning aan het state.

A specific addition to execute from your permit to the state.

Vergunnen van je vergunning.

Granting your permit.

Dit wordt al erg dystopisch, maar het is dan eigenlijk geen film, is het?

This is already very dystopian, but it's not actually a movie, is it?

Nee, het is een immersieve ervaring, dus het gebruikt de faciële herkenning.

No, it is an immersive experience, so it uses facial recognition.

Ja.

Yes.

It uses facial recognition to monitor you

It uses facial recognition to monitor you.

and the narrative branches in real time

depending on your eye gaze or emotional response.

afhankelijk van je oogopslag of emotionele reactie.

Yeah.

So I asked Hans beforehand

So I asked Hans beforehand.

what some questions I really need to ask Karen.

What are some questions I really need to ask Karen?

And the first thing he mentioned is that you're...

I have my lipstick, maybe.

He warned me that you actually tend to

kind of embrace a certain character or be in character.

Like you're telling us from the stage that you're from the future.

You're warning us for a couple of possible futures

You're warning us about a couple of possible futures.

that we could enter into.

And is this a real conscious way of embracing your inner artist

And is this a real conscious way of embracing your inner artist?

and trying to seduce us to build a better future?

Or is this an act?

Of course.

I was quite offended that it was a character.

This is the real me.

Dit is de echte ik.

The Karen Palmer is the character.

So the storyteller from the future is my persona.

That is really...

I genuinely feel that we have a collective consciousness as a people.

And I feel that I just tap into that as a creative

And I feel that I just tap into that as a creative.

in terms of where inspiration comes from,

where the imagination comes from,

where is it popped from.

waar is het vandaan gekomen.

And that's part of my tapping in

And that's part of my tapping in.

with the storyteller from the future.

I really like the angle you take there

I really like the angle you take there.

because I've already memorized the fact

omdat ik het feit al heb gememoriseerd

that there's someone from the future at this conference.

And I think I'll remember this for a while.

So it's a really clever way of putting it.

I feel that a lot of things that resonate with people,

there's some aspect of truth in it.

There’s some aspect of truth in it.

And it just connects with you on some kind of level

And it just connects with you on some kind of level.

that maybe tomorrow when you're brushing your teeth,

you're like, something about that made my hairs

You're like, something about that made my hairs stand on end.

in the back of my neck go up.

the hair on the back of my neck stands up.

It really is a feeling, more than it's intellectual.

It really is a feeling, more than it is intellectual.

And a lot of my work is about this kind of collective truth that I see,

which is different to perception.

which is different from perception.

When we think of consensus gentium,

some things are just almost, it's intuitive.

Some things are just almost, it's intuitive.

You just know in your spirit.

And some is a bit more manipulative, maybe.

And some is a bit more manipulative, perhaps.

Different truths about, say, politicians, you know?

So I feel this storyteller from the future

So I feel this storyteller from the future.

and the stories I tell from the future,

when people hear these stories, it really resonates with them.

When people hear these stories, it really resonates with them.

And they get very nervous because they're like,

En ze worden erg nerveus omdat ze denken,

wow, that seems really real.

Wow, dat lijkt echt heel realistisch.

And often when I create my experiences a year or two later,

they kind of pop up in this time.

They kind of pop up in this time.

So all aspects of those realities,

like I made the experience Perception.io,

like I had the experience Perception.io,

which is about the future of law enforcement,

where you watch the film as if you're a cop,

and the film branches in real time,

depending on how you interact with it.

afhankelijk van hoe je ermee omgaat.

And that was to show people that when they think,

oh yeah, AI is a computer, it's neutral, it knows everything,

that it's actually coded by a person,

a developer who has their own particular biases

that is coded into these systems.

So if they are biased against people of color,

say, that will be coded in.

Say, that will be coded in.

And so that when people do these experiences,

And so that when people have these experiences,

and they interact with the characters as a cop,

if they are aggressive,

then the character in the film,

their character becomes aggressive to the person.

their character becomes aggressive towards the person.

And if they're calm as a cop,

they can de-escalate the situation.

And from doing these experiences,

people go, oh, I understand a little bit about how AI might work

because it's visceral, I'm connected, I'm there.

And they start to develop a different relationship with AI.

And then when I made that,

the very next year,

was the first system came out.

was het eerste systeem dat uitkwam.

Well, it was the first case of a black man,

Robert Williams,

who was misidentified by an algorithm and arrested

because of bias within a law enforcement system,

wegens vooringenomenheid binnen een rechtshandhavingssysteem,

which is basically the real world equivalent of my experience.

which is basically the real-world equivalent of my experience.

Yes, and it wasn't surprising that that was a black person

Yes, and it wasn't surprising that it was a black person.

who was misidentified.

Yeah, it was kind of obvious in a way,

and that's why it was in my film,

is that if they're,

the majority of systems,

particularly up to now,

bijzonder tot nu toe,

things are changing,

but have been developed by white males.

maar zijn ontwikkeld door witte mannen.

And if those white males have bias,

they're going to program that into the system.

They are going to program that into the system.

So that's why there's a real need for diversity

So that's why there is a real need for diversity.

in creating these systems

in het creëren van deze systemen

to kind of expand the perception of these data sets.

Yeah, it's real hard to imagine being from a different race

Yeah, it's really hard to imagine being from a different race.

if you have experienced being, in my case, white all your life.

Now, I think racism is subtly a little bit different

Now, I think racism is subtly a little bit different.

in the Netherlands than it is in the States,

obviously culturally,

but still, I find it very hard to imagine.

Like a colleague of mine told me,

As a colleague of mine told me,

he's black and he told me,

most of the time when I'm driving at night through my city

in my Tesla Model X,

I get pulled over.

And I told him like, why?

En ik zei tegen hem van, waarom?

Because I've never been pulled over in my life.

Omdat ik nog nooit in mijn leven ben aangehouden.

And he told me like, well, it happens,

En hij zei tegen me, nou, het gebeurt.

a couple of, and it didn't happen in my previous car.

een paar keer, en het gebeurde niet in mijn vorige auto.

And I think it would be really interesting to experience that

And I think it would be really interesting to experience that.

maybe through virtual reality,

misschien via virtual reality,

me driving in my car, being pulled over,

and then afterwards getting a question like,

okay, why do we think you were pulled over?

Okay, waarom denken we dat je werd aangehouden?

It wouldn't occur to me for a second

It wouldn't occur to me for a second.

that it could possibly be because of the color of my skin.

I would think about my car or traffic tickets

I would think about my car or traffic tickets.

that I still had standing.

I'd really love to experience something like that.

Ik zou echt graag iets dergelijks willen ervaren.

Wow, I'm just so blown away by our different realities

Wow, I'm just so blown away by our different realities.

that we live within.

that we live in.

There is actually an XR experience called driving while black,

There is actually an XR experience called driving while black.

not driving while black.

It's eating while being some, traveling while black.

It's eating while being someone, traveling while black.

And it's related to the South.

But what you're saying...

Maar wat je zegt...

Texas?

I don't know where, but it was to do,

I don't know where, but it had to be done.

I think like back in time, like to do with voting.

I think like back in time, like related to voting.

But I'm just so blown away by what you've just said.

Maar ik ben gewoon zo onder de indruk van wat je net hebt gezegd.

And also when we shot Perception.io,

And also when we filmed Perception.io,

we had the exact same conversation

with the two characters, black and white.

And the black character is actually what your black character friend said.

And the white character was like,

oh, no, what happened is he said,

oh, no, wat er is gebeurd is dat hij zei,

then the DOP said,

oh God, I had this experience where we finished the video shoot late

oh God, I had this experience where we finished the video shoot late.

and we had to drive back.

And I drove back in the passenger seat of the white guy.

And the white guy kept just talking.

Like breaking all the red lights.

Like running all the red lights.

He's like, man, you've got to slow down.

Hij zegt zo: man, je moet langzamer doen.

You've got to slow down.

Je moet langzamer gaan.

And he said, the police came and they were like,

buddy, why do you think we stopped you?

Buddy, why do you think we stopped you?

And the white guy was like, come on, man, give me a break.

It's late.

What did you expect?

It's late, man.

Why are you stopping me?

Waarom stop je me?

And the black guy was in the passenger seat going,

oh my God, I'm going to die.

Oh my God, I'm going to die.

I'm going to die.

He's never been,

Hij is nooit geweest,

he would never even ever consider having this conversation.

he zou zelfs nooit overwegen om dit gesprek te hebben.

Say being in the car was like way too close.

Being in the car was way too close.

Not even a conversation.

It's like just being close proximity is like death.

It's like just being in close proximity is like death.

And all the black people on set were like, he said,

what?

And he's still alive.

He goes, yeah.

He felt basically he was living in the alternative universe.

He basically felt he was living in an alternative universe.

Yeah, yeah.

Which is kind of.

Wat een beetje.

He's actually having a discussion with this police officer.

Hij heeft eigenlijk een discussie met deze politieagent.

Yeah.

But also quite aggressively.

Maar ook behoorlijk agressief.

Yeah.

Where we as black people, we have to become very passive,

Waar wij als zwarte mensen, we moeten heel passief worden,

you know, immediately to disarm the situation.

You know, immediately to defuse the situation.

So these are some of the kind of conversations which these,

So these are some of the kinds of conversations which these,

my works kind of draw out, you know,

"My works kind of draw out, you know,"

we want to use the tech,

we willen de techniek gebruiken,

but it's more about exploring the society.

but it's more about exploring society.

The implications of AI which underpins the technology.

The implications of AI that underpins the technology.

Yeah.

So how difficult is it then to make these kinds of experiences?

So how difficult is it then to create these kinds of experiences?

I'm tempted to film still, but.

I'm tempted to still film, but.

They are immersive experiences, but because I'm a filmmaker,

they have a strong film component.

They have a strong film component.

But how do you go about,

Maar hoe ga je te werk,

because you have to consider a lot of branches that could happen in the story.

It's a lot of work.

It is a lot of work and some,

nobody's going to see all the different branches.

Nobody is going to see all the different branches.

So I,

first of all,

start with.

With my concept and what I want the participant to experience and how I want them to feel will determine the story arc and then also the tech I use.

I don't go,

oh wow,

I want to use AI.

Wow,

I want to use VR.

I go,

okay,

what is my story?

What is my story?

I'm like a proper arty arty creative and then that will determine.

I'm like a proper artsy creative, and then that will determine.

And just for the past,

En alleen voor het verleden,

since 2016 it's only been AI for me because I was like,

hmm,

I want to create an imperceptible interface so that I watch my films and then they branch because they watch you back,

I want to create an imperceptible interface so that I watch my films and then they branch because they watch you back.

but I don't put a headset on you so it's really to make explicit choices.

but I don't put a headset on you, so it's really to make explicit choices.

No,

because it's your face.

omdat het jouw gezicht is.

Your reacts on your face article in a magazine once said with my films that your brain is the joystick.

Your reaction to your face article in a magazine once said that with my films, your brain is the joystick.

Ah,

okay,

cool.

Yeah,

actually your face is,

eigenlijk is je gezicht,

but still,

maar toch,

yeah,

okay,

closely connected,

but still,

maar toch,

it's kind of like,

het is een beetje zoals,

you have an emotion or a thought or a feeling and then it's reflected in your face.

You have an emotion or a thought or a feeling, and then it is reflected on your face.

So if you feel aggressive then it comes out in like how you frown.

So if you feel aggressive, then it comes out in how you frown.

But would it be fair to say that that then actually is more of an app then so the latest film consensus Gentium is an app.

But would it be fair to say that that then actually is more of an app, so the latest film Consensus Gentium is an app.

It's the perception IO was on the film space,

It's the perception I was in the film space,

but it was very important for me to create a format of an experience that could go to the people because.

but it was very important for me to create a format of an experience that could reach the people because.

I love doing what I do,

but it's in a very kind of for one of a better word privilege space.

but it's in a very kind of, for want of a better word, privileged space.

Yeah,

you know,

lots of regular people aren't going to be going to some amazing conferences like this or South by Southwest or and it's very important for me to bring this message to the people.

Many regular people aren't going to amazing conferences like this or South by Southwest, and it's very important for me to bring this message to the people.

So I put it on the app and actually it's going to be available to download on the app store.

It's going to be or is it already?

Is het gaat het worden of is het al?

It's going to be we're doing it right now.

We're doing it right now.

Like I'm shouldn't really be here.

Like I shouldn't really be here.

I was supposed to my team were not very happy with me,

I was supposed to, but my team was not very happy with me.

but as I'm coming to Netherlands,

maar aangezien ik naar Nederland kom,

um,

so,

yeah,

they'll be happy that I mentioned on the podcast,

they'll be happy that I mentioned it on the podcast,

but we're developing it now in the UK and we're going to be releasing on the app store during the summer of 2020.

maar we ontwikkelen het nu in het VK en we gaan het in de zomer van 2020 op de app store uitbrengen.

I'm really looking forward to that because I like the idea a lot and I want that to succeed.

Ik kijk daar echt naar uit omdat ik het idee heel leuk vind en ik wil dat dat slaagt.

Actually,

I really,

I really love to have more of those kinds of experiences.

Thank you.

Creative stuff in the app store.

Hans.

So there's something going on here is that I think I see a trend where more and more artists are interested in.

Both tech AI,

but also heavy stuff like government surveillance and trying to use art to convey that that message that story at the same time.

but also heavy stuff like government surveillance and trying to use art to convey that message, that story at the same time.

Some of these artists aren't that technical at all.

Some of these artists aren't very technical at all.

They just have to use this as a tool to be creative.

Do you think artists have an important role to play in these kinds of stories?

And,

and maybe even,

how do you say it?

Uh,

activism,

maybe.

misschien.

Um,

so I don't necessarily think that the role of the artist is to be an activist.

So I don't necessarily think that the role of the artist is to be an activist.

The role of the artist is to be an artist,

but they have an essential role to play,

I think.

And,

um,

so in the panel,

I,

I quoted my favorite thinking,

Marsha,

Marshall McLuhan,

thinker about technology,

who in his book,

understanding media in the beginning,

he cites Ezra Pound,

the writer,

um,

who says artists are the antenna of our society.

So they are,

have the ability to see things much earlier than the rest of the world.

That is probably,

I think the,

and yeah,

a characteristic of great artists quite often.

And,

um,

and so we tend to,

to have this maybe layman's idea of artists sort of self-expression or this thing,

but,

but art also had this very much this pro,

prophetic,

prophetic

quality to it.

kwaliteit eraan.

Um,

and I think it's very important to listen to that and to,

to,

uh,

sort of enable and create the space for artists to do that.

So it's like,

it's important to fund,

het is belangrijk om te financieren,

uh,

that type of art,

um,

because it can help us prepare to deal with the societal and psychological consequences of a,

of a world that is changing through technology,

if that makes sense.

It does,

but can you think of any examples from the top of your head?

maar kun je uit je hoofd voorbeelden bedenken?

Um,

so probably for the audience of,

um,

met nerds on tafel.

with nerds on the table.

Do you know what that means?

Actually it's with nerds at the table.

Actually, it's with nerds at the table.

Around the table.

Like we're at this table together.

Yeah.

So,

um,

yeah,

yes,

maybe black mirror.

That's like a huge impactful,

Dat is als een enorme impact.

uh,

um,

I don't think of,

of black mirror as art,

but actually it could be considered art.

Yeah.

Why not?

Obviously.

Vanzelfsprekend.

Yeah,

but you can't,

maar je kunt niet,

yeah,

it can't be that it's,

het kan niet zijn dat het is,

that it's no longer art when you like it,

Randall.

Uh huh.

Okay.

Oh my God.

Let's go deep here.

Laten we hier diep op ingaan.

I think you meant because it was mainstream,

but God,

maar God,

it's cheeky,

isn't it?

Yeah,

I think that it-

My goodness,

that's a cheeky response.

Dat is een brutale reactie.

No,

we,

we Dutch people are very direct.

We Dutch people are very direct.

You have to dial our directness down a bit.

You need to tone down our directness a bit.

But that was like a drill in their head.

Maar dat was als een boor in hun hoofd.

That's that direct.

I'm going to watch out.

I didn't feel it that way.

No,

no,

I like this.

Okay.

I'm English.

Ik ben Engels.

I'm not Dutch.

Ik ben geen Nederlander.

Just to let you know.

Yeah.

Say they're masochistic,

but okay,

let's keep going.

Yeah.

And so,

so yeah,

so Black Mirror is,

I think a very good example of that.

I think that is a very good example of that.

I think Karen's work is that,

Paolo Sirius,

who was also in the panel.

He does a lot of work around surveillance.

He does a lot of work in the field of surveillance.

And so it's this,

it's like you,

yeah,

you reframe things.

You make people,

you make,

ideally you make people think or feel,

um,

and,

uh,

and think sort of with a,

with a future,

uh,

future focus.

toekomstgerichte focus.

Mhm.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you've been the director of Bits of Freedom before.

So you have been the director of Bits of Freedom before.

Um,

so obviously there is a kind of activist in you already,

so obviously there is already a kind of activist in you,

um,

certainly around topics,

uh,

surrounding privacy and,

uh,

you know,

holding the government accountable and stuff.

But do you think,

Maar denk je,

what kind of role does art play in that?

What kind of role does art play in that?

And what kind of role,

uh,

do you see,

do you see yourself playing?

Do you see yourself playing?

Because I don't think you consider yourself an artist.

Omdat ik denk dat je jezelf geen kunstenaar vindt.

And,

and,

and still,

I think there's a lot of warning signs artists can give,

I think there are a lot of warning signs that artists can give,

but there's also the here and now,

and the,

the activist who has to sound the alarm and gets actually get stuff done.

the activist who has to sound the alarm and actually gets things done.

That doesn't have to make you think about them,

but actually have to give you tangible,

um,

concrete steps to take towards building that future.

concrete stappen om te zetten naar het bouwen van die toekomst.

Yeah.

So,

so when,

so Bits of Freedom is this,

uh,

for Karen is a,

it's an NGO focusing on privacy and freedom of speech on the internet.

It's an NGO focusing on privacy and freedom of speech on the internet.

And when I,

uh,

started out there,

we had this very strong,

um,

presence of both,

uh,

I would say computer scientists and,

uh,

legal people,

lawyers.

Both could be considered nerds.

Yeah,

both are very much nerds.

Both are very much nerds.

So I would say this is the one,

yeah,

this is the one place where,

uh,

where IT nerds and legal nerds,

uh,

share a table and like each other.

And,

um,

and I explicitly added the component of art and imagination,

maybe storytelling as sort of a third branch that was necessary to be a successful activist.

Maybe storytelling as a sort of third branch that was necessary to be a successful activist.

Because you need to be able to tell stories about what it is that you want.

You need to imagine the consequences of the things that are happening now.

You need to create alternative futures.

And also you need to be able to sort of,

sell your story in a sense.

So,

um,

and for that,

you need storytelling because stories are the only things that resonate with people.

You need storytelling because stories are the only things that resonate with people.

Nobody likes to read the AI act,

which is hundreds of pages of,

wat honderden pagina's van is,

yeah,

it's not a thing that,

het is geen ding dat,

anybody,

but a lawyer,

maar een advocaat,

but a particular lawyer is interested in.

maar een bepaalde advocaat is hierin geïnteresseerd.

And so you need people who can tell the story of that act in a story.

And so you need people who can tell the story of that act in a narrative.

in een geval, en die het kunnen veranderen in iets dat met de mensen vergelijkt.

in one case, and that can change it into something that compares with the people.

Dus voor mij is het een essentieel ding.

So for me it is an essential thing.

Ik bedoel, er zijn andere vormen van imaginiën.

I mean, there are other forms of imaginations.

Dus ik ben een filosof en als ethicist gebruik ik dit concept van moraal imaginiën,

So I am a philosopher and as an ethicist I use this concept of moral imagination,

wat is dit ding, zoals proberen te imagineren wat er misschien fout kan gaan

What is this thing, like trying to imagine what might go wrong.

met de technologie die je ontwerpt of maakt, et cetera.

with the technology that you design or create, etc.

En het begint met heel simpele vragen te vragen, zoals

And it starts with asking very simple questions, such as

wat zou iemand met slechte intenties kunnen doen met deze technologie?

What could someone with bad intentions do with this technology?

Of welke mensen worden door deze technologie afgesloten?

Which people are excluded by this technology?

Werkt het dezelfde manier voor iedereen?

Does it work the same way for everyone?

Of wat is het slechtst mogelijke imaginatieve

Or what is the worst possible imaginative?

hoofdstuk dat je in een nieuwsbrief kan imagineren over deze technologie?

Chapter that you can imagine in a newsletter about this technology?

En dus als je door deze dingen begint te werken,

And so if you start working through these things,

en vooral in een heel

and especially in a very

diverse

groep mensen met verschillende standpunten, dan kan je...

group of people with different opinions, then you can...

Ja, je kan beginnen te krijgen een idee van wat de consequenties kunnen zijn.

Yes, you can start to get an idea of what the consequences could be.

En dus...

And so...

Maar het is belangrijk om ruimte te creëren voor dat.

But it is important to create space for that.

En het is belangrijk om de politieke wil voor dat te hebben.

And it is important to have the political will for that.

Want voor mij is de technologie eigenlijk nooit het probleem.

Because for me, the technology is never the problem.

Het is de politiek erachter.

It is the politics behind it.

En de onvermijdelde consequenties ook.

And the inevitable consequences as well.

Ja, dus technologie heeft altijd onvermijdelde consequenties.

Yes, so technology always has inevitable consequences.

Maar

But

heel vaak in de...

very often in the...

Weet je,

You know,

je kunt niet te verrast zijn als je

you can't be too surprised if you

welvarende applicanten scoort met een

prosperous applicants score with a

fraude risico model die je gaat creëren en mensen vermoorden.

fraud risk model that you are going to create and kill people.

Dat is niet...

That is not...

Het is niet zo moeilijk om te imagineren dat dat een consequentie zou kunnen zijn.

It's not that difficult to imagine that that could be a consequence.

En dus, zelfs al had het niet bedoeld, het is ook...

And so, even if it wasn't intended, it is also...

Dus als de mensen die het Duitse welvarende systeem creëren,

So if the people who create the German prosperous system,

had je een muro gedaan.

Did you do a muro?

Ja.

Yes.

Exercises, waarschijnlijk na een half uur zeiden ze oké, tijd uit, laten we dit niet doen.

Exercises, probably after half an hour they said okay, time out, let's not do this.

Nou, in plaats daarvan konden we gewoon

Well, instead we could just

gaan doen en dan de consequenties bepalen voor veel jaar daarna.

to go do and then determine the consequences for many years afterwards.

Dus ik leefde in de primaire school en toen had ik veel studenten die een schattige dingen deden.

So I lived in elementary school, and then I had many students who did cute things.

Natuurlijk. En dan zeiden ze...

Of course. And then they said...

Dat was onze job.

That was our job.

Ik was bang voor hen.

I was afraid of them.

En toen zeiden ze, ik deed het niet op doel.

And then they said, I didn't do it on purpose.

En dan zei ik, nou, je deed het ook niet op doel.

And then I said, well, you didn't do it on purpose either.

Je moet het niet doen.

You shouldn't do it.

En dat is mijn punt.

And that is my point.

Je zou het niet op doel hebben gedaan.

You wouldn't have done it on purpose.

Zoals ik het niet bedoel.

As I don't mean it.

Dus voor mij gaat het heel veel om het denken over wat je doet.

So for me, it is very much about reflecting on what you do.

Een bewustwende beslissing.

A conscious decision.

Intentionale beslissingen.

Intentional decisions.

Niet... Ja.

Not... Yes.

Ik bedoel, hier in de stad van Amsterdam hebben we ook nog een ander

I mean, here in the city of Amsterdam we also have another

welvaar risico algoritme gehad, dat was eigenlijk gecreëerd omdat

welfare risk algorithm had been created because

ze de smarte data science hadden om het te maken.

they had the smart data science to make it.

Ze wilden een probleem bezoeken.

They wanted to visit a problem.

Om het te oplossen.

To solve it.

Om het erbij te dragen.

To contribute to it.

Ja, en tegelijkertijd zie ik mezelf denken,

Yes, and at the same time I see myself thinking,

zoals deze soort punten die je maakt, van een meer activisme standpunt,

like these kinds of points you make, from a more activist perspective,

klinkt het voor mij soms heel principieel.

Sometimes it sounds very principled to me.

Ik denk, nou, dit is allemaal imaginaire.

I think, well, this is all imaginary.

Er is een toekomst die zou kunnen gebeuren, maar

There is a future that could happen, but

ik denk niet dat het zo snel zal uitzien.

I don't think it will look like that so soon.

En dan hebben we waarschijnlijk

And then we probably have

we moeten artiesten zoals Karen

We need artists like Karen.

om eigenlijk een foto te schrijven van dat toekomst.

to actually write a picture of that future.

En maak ons

And make us

een voorbeeld of misschien zelfs dat toekomst te ervaren en te zien, oké,

an example or perhaps even to experience and see that future, okay,

nu, als dit zou gebeuren, hoe zou dat voelen?

Now, if this were to happen, how would that feel?

En hoe, wat zou het zijn om zo'n ervaring te leven?

And how, what would it be like to live such an experience?

Want ik ben altijd

Because I am always

ik ben altijd gefrustreerd als ik probeer

I am always frustrated when I try.

een toekomst te imagineren waar alles fout gaat.

to imagine a future where everything goes wrong.

En ik denk nog steeds, ik heb genoeg geld om daar over te gaan, waar het

And I still think, I have enough money to go over there, where it

nog steeds droog zal worden als de ervaring komt.

will still be dry when the experience comes.

En ja, ik ga, ik ga uitgaan, ik ga het bepalen.

And yes, I’m going, I’m going to go out, I’m going to decide.

Nee, dus geen probleem hier.

No, so no problem here.

En dan

And then

hebben

to have

de moed om te imagineren dat je in iemand anders' schoen bent.

the courage to imagine that you are in someone else's shoes.

Ik denk

I think

dat het heel moeilijk is om mensen daar te krijgen.

that it is very difficult to get people there.

Dat is het ding dat je probeert te doen op een dagelijks basis, denk ik.

That's the thing you're trying to do on a daily basis, I think.

Ja, ik, ik ben een beetje een stap weg van wat je zegt en dat ik

Yes, I, I am a bit of a step away from what you are saying and that I

ik denk dat het om mensen te mogen bereiken om een potentieel toekomst te ontwikkelen vandaag.

I think it is about being able to reach people to develop a potential future today.

Ja, maar ik ben een branching narratief.

Yes, but I am a branching narrative.

Het maakt hen bewust van hun rol.

It makes them aware of their role.

Het geeft hen agentie in de verhaal.

It gives them agency in the story.

En dus als ze een bepaalde, als ze een bepaalde

And so if they have a certain, if they have a certain

subconscientieke beslissing maken, dat zal een bepaalde weg leiden.

Making a subconscious decision will lead to a certain path.

Nu ben je blij met dat weg.

Now you're happy it's gone.

Ben je blij met dat einde?

Are you happy with that ending?

En omdat het subconscient is, is het niet iets dat ze kunnen gaan.

And because it is the subconscious, it is not something they can go to.

Het is iets wat echt en waar is.

It is something that is real and true.

Ze zijn er zelf niet zelf van bekend.

They are not known for it themselves.

Dus het is een beetje, om terug te gaan naar jouw punt, over intentionaalheid.

So it's a bit, to go back to your point, about intentionality.

Zoals het kind niet, maar je zou het kunnen hebben gekozen om het niet te doen,

As the child does not, but you could have chosen not to do it,

omdat ze gewoon niet zelfbewust zijn.

because they are simply not self-aware.

Dus mijn werk is om mensen zelfbewust te maken van de gevolgen van hun acties.

So my job is to make people self-aware of the consequences of their actions.

Dus dan kunnen ze later niet zeggen, nou, ik wist het niet.

So then they can't say later, well, I didn't know.

Zoals je kinderen zeggen, ik wist het niet.

As your children say, I didn't know.

Dus met mijn ervaringen heb je deze opties.

So with my experiences you have these options.

Je bent bepaald in dit filmpje en je downloadt deze regeringsapp.

You are featured in this video and you download this government app.

En je kunt dit concept opvangen genoemd auto zelfbeveiliging.

And you can refer to this concept as car self-protection.

Waar je de regering toegang geeft tot al je apparaten.

Where you give the government access to all your devices.

Dus je opteert dan in?

So you're opting in then?

Ja, je opteert in tot dit concept, auto zelfbeveiliging.

Yes, you opt into this concept, self-car protection.

Waar je ze toegang geeft tot al je apparaten.

Where you give them access to all your devices.

En dus je computer, je telefoon.

And so your computer, your phone.

En ze kunnen dat gebruiken als een beveiliging, een persoonlijke beveiligingsnetwerk.

And they can use that as a security, a personal security network.

En dan krijg je extra priviligies.

And then you get extra privileges.

Natuurlijk, ja.

Of course, yes.

Er is een karretje aan het einde van die stok.

There is a cart at the end of that stick.

Ja, en dan ook, dat is in je huis.

Yes, and then also, that is in your house.

Dus, je weet, mensen die in je huis komen, worden beveiligd.

So, you know, people who come into your house are secured.

Je geeft de regering vermoedelijkheid voor dat.

You give the government likelihood for that.

En dus voor dat krijg je bepaalde priviligies, maar er zijn consequenties voor dat.

And so for that, you get certain privileges, but there are consequences for that.

Dus door mijn ervaring zeg je dat je begrijpt de consequenties van vermoeidheid.

So, because of my experience, you're saying that you understand the consequences of fatigue.

In het begin lijkt het eruit te lijken dat dit een beetje comfortabeler is.

In the beginning, it seems that this is a bit more comfortable.

Maar waar je heen komt, is waarschijnlijk niet een super comfortabel plek te zijn.

But where you are going, is probably not a super comfortable place to be.

Maar er zijn ook consequenties voor dat.

But there are also consequences for that.

Hetzelfde geldt voor dissidenten.

The same applies to dissidents.

Als je zegt, ik ga niet opt-in naar dat, dan kom je op een andere lijst.

If you say, I will not opt-in to that, then you will end up on a different list.

Een verschillende lijst.

A different list.

En je komt op een andere einde, wat ook problematisch is.

And you end up at a different ending, which is also problematic.

Want je hebt niet die priviligies, maar je hebt een andere type vrijheid.

Because you don't have those privileges, but you have a different type of freedom.

Dus mijn werk, het is geen verantwoordelijkheid als je mijn ervaringen doet.

So my work, it's not a responsibility if you experience my experiences.

Je hebt gewoon deze verschillende eindingen.

You just have these different endings.

En als je ze niet leuk vindt, kun je de ervaring weer doen.

And if you don't like them, you can do the experience again.

Je kunt de toekomst in een andere manier ervaren.

You can experience the future in a different way.

En dan wil ik dat je begint te contempleren, te reflecteren, om te zien.

And then I want you to start contemplating, reflecting, to see.

Ben je gelukkig zonder die?

Are you happy without that?

En waar gaat je leven heen?

And where is your life headed?

Welke beslissingen maak je nu?

What decisions are you making now?

En waar kan dat potentieel leiden?

And where can that potential lead?

Ik denk dat het erg krachtig is dat je in je ervaringen mensen in een rol zet.

I think it's very powerful that you place people in a role in your experiences.

Wat hen vermoedt om te empathiseren met anderen, in een geval.

What makes them suspect to empathize with others, in a case.

Dus we hebben dit, ja, ik denk dat we

So we have this, yes, I think that we

deze bijna ironische situatie hebben.

to have this almost ironic situation.

Dus mijn favoriete voorbeeld van dit is, het was ooit zo.

So my favorite example of this is, it was once so.

Ik weet niet zeker hoe het nu is, omdat ik

I’m not sure how it is now, because I

al jaren geleden op LinkedIn ben.

I have been on LinkedIn for years.

Maar in het verleden zou het

But in the past it would have

zijn dat mensen, wanneer ze geen job hadden,

are those people, when they had no job,

in LinkedIn, op hun jobstijl zouden ze zeggen,

on LinkedIn, in their job style they would say,

zoeken voor nieuwe opportuniteiten, zoiets van dat soort dingen.

looking for new opportunities, something like that.

En dan heeft LinkedIn gecreëerd deze

And then LinkedIn created this

functie waarin het je zou vragen om je te verantwoorden

a role in which you would be asked to justify yourself

voor je verbinding met twee jaar in een nieuwe job.

for your connection with two years in a new job.

Maar in dit geval zou het twee jaar zijn.

But in this case, it would be two years.

Verantwoord Karin, voor twee jaar zoeken voor nieuwe opportuniteiten.

Responsible Karin, for two years searching for new opportunities.

En LinkedIn heeft nooit de optie gecreëerd om te zeggen, ik heb geen job of zoiets.

And LinkedIn has never created the option to say, I don't have a job or something like that.

En ik dacht, ja, natuurlijk.

And I thought, yes, of course.

Omdat de mensen die op LinkedIn werken,

Because the people who work on LinkedIn,

ze kunnen niet voorstellen een wereld waarin je geen job hebt.

They cannot imagine a world in which you have no job.

Twee jaar, je zal op de straat leven.

Two years, you will live on the street.

En dus is er dit, ik bedoel,

And so there is this, I mean,

misschien is het te generaliseren, maar natuurlijk hebben we veel

maybe it's too generalizing, but of course we have a lot

neurodiversiteit in de computerwetenschappen, laten we zeggen.

neurodiversity in computer science, let's say.

Dank je.

Thank you.

We hebben ook veel mensen die zijn

We also have many people who are

misschien niet de beste empathisatoren in de wereld.

maybe not the best empathizers in the world.

En dus deze soort ervaringen kunnen helpen met dat.

And so these kinds of experiences can help with that.

Dus mijn persoonlijke favoriete dingen.

So my personal favorite things.

Dus het hoeft niet zelfs te zijn deze high tech.

So it doesn't even have to be high tech.

Je hebt deze computergame

You have this computer game.

genaamd Papers, Please. Ik weet niet of je het ooit hebt gezien.

called Papers, Please. I don't know if you have ever seen it.

Papers, Please. Ja.

Papers, Please. Yes.

Het is een game waarin je je in de rol

It is a game in which you take on the role.

van iemand in de customs of in de, hoe noem je dat?

from someone in customs or in the, what do you call that?

Immigratie op de grens.

Immigration at the border.

En ja, je moet eigenlijk mensen passpoorten checken

And yes, you actually have to check people's passports.

en beslissen of je ze in wilt laten of niet.

and decide whether or not you want to let them in.

En dan voorkomt het...

And then it prevents...

Je bent echt krachtig in deze game.

You are really powerful in this game.

En het voorkomt deze complicaties.

And it prevents these complications.

Je hebt een zieke vrouw thuis.

You have a sick wife at home.

Ze hebben geld nodig.

They need money.

Je salaris is eigenlijk niet genoeg.

Your salary is actually not enough.

Er zijn mensen daar die je een beetje willen vermoorden.

There are people there who want to kill you a little.

De regels blijven veranderen.

The rules keep changing.

Je krijgt deze morale dilemma's en het voorkomt je te realiseren.

You get these moral dilemmas and it prevents you from realizing.

Het laat je eigenlijk begrijpen waarom corruptie begint te bestaan.

It actually makes you understand why corruption begins to exist.

Ja, ja.

Yes, yes.

Maar het laat je ook echt geweldig zijn en

But it also really lets you be amazing and

gewoon iedereen vermoorden en god worden of zoiets.

just kill everyone and become god or something.

Maar dan, ja, weet je, dan eindigt het niet goed.

But then, yes, you know, it doesn't end well.

Er is een similaire game waar je, waar je moet zijn.

There is a similar game where you have to be.

Je bent net in kracht gekomen als

You have just come into power as

president in een land van Lat-Amerika in de jaren zeventig of zoiets.

president in a country in Latin America in the seventies or so.

Je moet beslissen, ga ik met de USA of met de Russen aan de hand?

You have to decide, am I going hand in hand with the USA or with the Russians?

Je hebt natuurlijk moeders die protesteren tegen hun vervangen kinderen.

Of course, you have mothers who protest against their replaced children.

Je hebt

You have

varkens, je hebt, en no matter, I think, how you play this game,

pigs, you have, and no matter, I think, how you play this game,

eventually you'll end dead on the floor with some coup, with somebody with the army.

Eventually you'll end up dead on the floor from some coup, with someone from the army.

Of course, yeah, that's how it ends.

But these experiences are...

Sounds legit.

Klinkt legitiem.

These experiences are a wonderful way,

and I imagine, I haven't gone through your experience, Karin, but I imagine that

en ik stel me voor, ik heb jouw ervaring niet doorgemaakt, Karin, maar ik stel me voor dat

it's the same there, that they, instead of sort of making the world

het is daar hetzelfde, dat zij in plaats van de wereld een beetje te maken

simpler, they're actually making, they're showing the complexity of it.

Easier, they're actually creating, they're demonstrating the complexity of it.

Of the world. Yes.

Yes. Just to add two things.

I'm loving your examples, by the way, is

Ik hou trouwens van je voorbeelden, is

one time I was in Russia doing a talk and I met this professor there.

One time I was in Russia giving a talk and I met this professor there.

And they said to me something, a fan that always stayed with me.

And they said, they were a professor from film, and they said,

En ze zeiden, dat ze een professor van film waren, en ze zeiden,

they don't think it's the art itself, which is the catalyst for change,

but it's kind of the reflection and the conversation afterwards where it really

happens. And I was like, wow, that's so deep, because I really build in this

kind of emotional decompression with my work.

So that like these conversations is like

creating new neural networks in our brains, which is really where things are

going to start to expand out. And the second thing, slightly different to what

you said, is that I'm not actually into empathy.

You said, is that I'm not actually into empathy.

I'm into moving through fear because I'm a little bit jaded about empathy because

empathy has been around for a while now and there's been no changes.

Empathy has been around for a while now and there have been no changes.

Right. And there's all this like, oh, if I can

Juist. En er is al dit van, oh, als ik kan.

only, you know, understand how you feel, it's like, well,

it's a bit more complicated than that.

It's a bit more complicated than that.

So my work is a lot about moving through

So my work is a lot about moving through.

fear, about how giving us the onus on what we do.

fear, about how giving us the responsibility for what we do.

So I use parkour because I'm a free runner

So I use parkour because I'm a free runner.

as part of this psychology and methodology within my work.

It's always about putting the mirror back

It's always about putting the mirror back.

on you and getting it uncomfortable for you and getting to move you move through fear.

on you and making it uncomfortable for you and getting you to move through fear.

It's not about how the other person is feeling or relating to them.

It's like, well, let's just focus on you.

There's always somebody else you can put

Er is altijd iemand anders die je kunt inzetten.

your finger at. What's stopping you from doing this thing?

Your finger at. What's stopping you from doing this thing?

Like most of the times I when I speak to people about why they're not doing

Like most of the times when I speak to people about why they're not doing

something, it's because of fear, like I can't do that thing because if I

iets, het is vanwege angst, zoals ik kan die zaak niet doen omdat als ik

pursue my dream, then maybe I won't have money for the rent or maybe I might lose

my boyfriend or my girlfriend or I can't buy those things.

My boyfriend or my girlfriend or I can't buy those things.

And it's always preceded with the word if, you know, fear is like this kind of illusion.

And it's always preceded by the word if, you know, fear is like this kind of illusion.

And my work is about let me kind of put you through these if scenarios and then

you're going to experience them from yourself.

you’re going to experience them for yourself.

And then you're going to wonder, is that the worst that could actually

And then you're going to wonder, is that the worst that could actually be?

happen, like if I can, I'm compliant at the beginning.

Happen, like if I can, I'm compliant at the beginning.

So in a weird way, you're actually trying to instill some fear as well.

So in a strange way, you're actually trying to instill some fear as well.

I'm trying to make people confront fear by but in a gentle film way.

I'm trying to make people confront fear in a gentle filmic way.

It's very safe. It's like a film world.

But it's like I'm using almost the power of visualization, but through film.

Maar het is alsof ik bijna de kracht van visualisatie gebruik, maar dan via film.

So what happens with my experience is you

So what happens with my experience is you.

do them and then the film branches depending on how you respond.

Do them and then the film branches depending on how you respond.

And so if you're angry, then you get a narrative responding to your anger.

And then if you.

Leave the if the kind of the film then collapses and you're looking at in the

Leave if the type of film then collapses and you're looking at in the

real world, this is actually the same thing.

If you're aggressive person, the film will respond to your anger.

If you're an aggressive person, the film will respond to your anger.

So I'm kind of giving you a call them

So I'm kind of giving you a call then.

reality simulators that is giving you a little insight to your world that you can

reality simulators that are giving you a little insight into your world that you can

go away, reflect and then come back and maybe change something.

Go away, reflect, and then come back and maybe change something.

Could I also just hold a happy face

Could I also just hold a happy face?

towards the camera watching it unfold as well?

OK, so I'm going to answer that seriously.

OK, dus ik ga dat serieus beantwoorden.

Is that I had someone a friend of mine in New York and did the experience and he got

Is that I had a friend of mine in New York who had the experience and he got

the end because he was very calm and I said, how was that?

And he goes, well, inside I was seething.

I said, oh shit, because, no, that's the thing.

Everybody always says to me, wow, you're so calm.

Iedereen zegt altijd tegen me, wauw, je bent zo rustig.

You know, you're so always in control.

You know, you're always so in control.

He goes, so my work is about how you're perceived.

He goes, so my work is about how you are perceived.

So he's always perceived as control.

So he's always perceived as controlling.

So the camera couldn't actually in this instance.

You're right, actually, it's not the brain,

more the face is how he was perceived was he was focused on being perceived as calm.

More the face is how he was perceived when he was focused on being seen as calm.

Yeah.

And so that's what was.

Being registered.

It's also a beautiful lesson to learn through that experience.

So no problems here.

That's exactly about self-awareness, about how people perceive you.

Dat gaat precies over zelfbewustzijn, over hoe mensen jou waarnemen.

So me and him had a great conversation afterwards about, yeah, that's how he's

So he and I had a great conversation afterwards about, yeah, that's how he’s

perceived and this is a confirmation that, you know, he's not always happy and he was

get being treated for depression and how, you know, he's really got to kind of

focus on dealing with the core of what's happening because now he's putting on a

happy face and I think that was one

of the things that made him go towards a therapy because he was like, this is

of the things that made him go towards therapy because he was like, this is

really not who I am and I really need to tackle this.

This is really not who I am, and I really need to tackle this.

This experience is really useful as well.

Yeah, it's very, very much about self-awareness.

I also.

Me too.

Does it use emotion detection?

Yes. So I made three projects.

The first one was emotion detection, calm, anger and fear.

The first one was emotion detection, calm, anger, and fear.

The second one was calm, was fear, calm, anger and fear and eye gaze.

And the third one, consensus gentium, is just the eye gaze.

And do you think that emotion detection works the same for everybody?

And do you think that emotion detection works the same for everyone?

Can you elaborate on your question a bit further, please?

Could you elaborate on your question a bit further, please?

Yes, I can imagine that there is a...

I'm not 100% sure that our facial expressions of these emotions are universal.

Ik ben niet 100% zeker dat onze gezichtsuitdrukkingen van deze emoties universeel zijn.

I agree 100%, particularly around culture.

I agree 100%, particularly regarding culture.

However, when I first did my experience,

However, when I first had my experience,

I was working with Brunel University and the professor of computational science.

I think this was 2016 with my project Riot.

And he's Chinese.

And I said, how is this going to work?

Like cultural and personality.

Like culture and personality.

But he said it's basically mathematical.

Maar hij zei dat het basically wiskundig is.

Like if you frown or if there's

a micro expression or your mouth is neutral.

So very basic, universal

So very basic, universal.

and mathematical and micro.

So it worked.

I was really shocked.

Like I was like, well, I didn't hardly see anything on that person's face.

Zoals ik het zag, kon ik bijna niets op dat iemands gezicht zien.

And but it was just enough of a trigger.

And yet it was just enough of a trigger.

If the person isn't receptive at all,

physically, facially, then it can't pick up anything.

Physically, facially, then it can't pick up anything.

But to answer your question, I think the subtlety, it can still detect.

But to answer your question, I think it can still detect the subtlety.

But it also doesn't have to be correct.

Maar het hoeft ook niet correct te zijn.

Like it's not the end of the world.

If the machine thinks it's fear and it's actually anxiety or it's actually something else.

And I mean, the one, you're true.

And I mean, the one, you're right.

The fear and the anger sometimes got a little bit,

The fear and the anger sometimes got a little bit out of hand.

was the one that confused the algorithm the most.

was degene die het algoritme het meest verwarde.

And this was in 2016, right?

We had to know this.

You couldn't even Google like facial detection and AI.

You couldn't even Google facial detection and AI.

Like no, it was nobody's landscape.

And so it's kind of almost like sticky tape and code sticking in the back.

But it was very accurate.

Maar het was zeer nauwkeurig.

But the one it did confuse was anger and fear.

Maar degene die het verwarrend vond, was woede en angst.

And then, but in life as well.

En dan, maar ook in het leven.

You know, sometimes if I'm having an argument with somebody or disagreement or something,

You know, sometimes if I'm having an argument with somebody or a disagreement or something,

I might move into anger and fear during the conversation anyway.

So that's quite reflective of how we are as humans.

So that’s quite reflective of how we are as humans.

There's something I was thinking about as well.

Er was iets waar ik ook aan dacht.

We don't have the time to dive real deep

We don't have the time to dive really deep.

into that because you mentioned fear just now.

into that because you just mentioned fear.

But I was also thinking about the difference between maybe not empathy,

Maar ik dacht ook na over het verschil tussen misschien geen empathie,

but maybe call it compassion or something that you're trying to instill.

Not only fear, but also compassion, not necessarily empathy.

It's more about, I find empathy personally.

It's more about, I personally find empathy.

My interpretation is like you're on the other person.

My interpretation is that you're focused on the other person.

Like, how are they feeling or what's happening with them?

And I'm just like, OK, let's we got to put the mirror back on ourselves.

En ik denk gewoon, oké, we moeten de spiegel weer op onszelf richten.

Because for me, if I have empathy, then I actually do care how we feel.

If I have compassion, I'm like, yeah, OK, but I'm not too bad for you, but I don't care.

If I have compassion, I'm like, yeah, okay, but I'm not too bad for you, but I don't care.

This is more about you, like the mirrors on you.

So if you do my experience and the perception I owe and you're a cop and you're

interacting with a character, you interact with both a black and white character.

And I film scenarios where the person has

mental health issues or another scenario where the person's a violent criminal.

mental health issues or another scenario where the person is a violent criminal.

So you don't know which person it is, but there's clues there on the scene.

So you don't know which person it is, but there are clues there at the scene.

So, but to answer your question is, so it's not really about that person.

So, to answer your question, it's not really about that person.

It's how you respond to that person, that if you are becoming aggressive

It's how you respond to that person that determines if you are becoming aggressive.

and then afterwards you find that they have mental health.

and then afterwards you find that they have mental health issues.

That's for you to look at in yourself.

Dat is om zelf naar te kijken.

Yeah.

How you reacted to somebody

and making that judgment and what you're basing that on.

en dat oordeel vellen en waar je dat op baseert.

So it's about evaluating.

This is my word perception.

A lot of my work is expanding your perception of reality.

I work with a neuroscientist as part of my development for this.

And I was like, yeah, I want to shift perception.

En ik dacht, ja, ik wil de perceptie veranderen.

He goes, no, you can't shift perception.

He says, no, you can't change perception.

You can expand it by including other peoples.

You can expand it by including other people.

So if you think that I don't want someone to feel empathy for that person,

the mirrors on you, I want to expand your perception because you can

The mirrors on you, I want to expand your perception because you can.

have a greater understanding of the circumstance and situation

and the consequences for them and yourself.

Would be really beautiful if you managed to pull that off through an app.

It would be really beautiful if you managed to pull that off through an app.

Well, that's the plan with Consensus Gentium and also activate agency.

That's the big thing about my work.

Dat is het grote ding van mijn werk.

So the Consensus Gentium was the first part of that.

And then we're now in post development for Consensus Gentium 2 and Consensus Gentium 3

And then we are now in post-development for Consensus Gentium 2 and Consensus Gentium 3.

where Consensus Gentium 1 was highlighting the problem, which is surveillance,

bias in tech and all that amazing stuff.

And part two was looking at the solution.

Like, am I really going to be spending the rest of my life begging big tech to

please be transparent, please have some governance, please have some regulation.

Please, we really need it.

It's like, you know what, why don't we just make our own?

Can I swear? No.

Yeah, OK.

Why don't we just make our own fucking systems?

Waarom maken we niet gewoon onze eigen klote systemen?

Even if we start today, it's going to take 30 years.

Let's start. Let's try.

Laten we beginnen. Laten we het proberen.

Let's let's not be begging them or lobbying them or demonstrating or protesting.

Laten we ze niet bedelen, lobbyen, demonstreren of protesteren.

Let's do this. Let's just fucking do it ourselves or at least try.

Laten we dit doen. Laten we het gewoon zelf verdomme doen of in ieder geval proberen.

That's why we're taking back the Internet today.

Daarom nemen we vandaag het internet terug.

That's why we're taking back the Internet.

Dat is waarom we het Internet terugnemen.

OK, last question, because I did notice an interesting thing.

I started off in this podcast calling it

a film and then actually noticing, no, it's not a film at all.

Maybe.

Misschien.

You should have done your research, I'm not joking.

We already called it a game.

Yes, it is. I love it.

Yeah.

Actually, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't worry about other people's

reactions, just being direct and we know we all are.

Reacties, gewoon rechtuit zijn en we weten dat we dat allemaal zijn.

So we can, we can, we can, we can handle it.

We're not human. We don't have any feeling.

We zijn geen mensen. We hebben geen gevoelens.

Yeah, Dutch aren't human at all.

Yeah, Dutch people aren't human at all.

So.

We started calling it a game, actually.

We begonnen het eigenlijk een spel te noemen.

And I think there's something in that because normally I'm sitting next to

Jurri-Jan Ubers, who is my companion in this podcast, and he is a journalist, but

he reviews games.

He reviews games.

And I think most people think of a game like something thing you do for fun,

And I think most people think of a game as something you do for fun,

but games actually can be really philosophical and actually instill some

but games can actually be really philosophical and can actually instill some

points like the Fallout series or Mass Effect series that are actually games

that you can start a safe game, have it spend three games and then have

that you can start a safe game, have it play three games and then have

multiple endings depending on choices you made before.

multiple endings depending on choices you made earlier.

But, and here is the point.

Maar, en hier is het punt.

I have a question I'm trying to ask.

In the Mass Effect series, you're in space.

In de Mass Effect-serie ben je in de ruimte.

There's a couple of races and they all

Er zijn een paar races en ze allemaal

need to work together in the end to get something done.

We need to work together in the end to get something done.

Doesn't matter what, but.

You can be really good or really bad in that game.

You can be really good or really bad at that game.

And that's role playing.

That's fun to do.

And they call that the paragon style of playing or the renegade style of playing.

And they actually tell you which is which.

So if you're talking to someone, they say,

this is a paragon answer and this is a renegade answer.

So you're going to be good or bad or neutral.

So you're going to be good, bad, or neutral.

I once tried to do a renegade playthrough.

I couldn't do it.

I really had trouble clicking that option.

And if I did, I made a safe game before,

And if I did, I made a safe game before.

click the option to see what happens, then load the previous save file and then

do the renegade option either way. And before the very end of the game, I also made

a safe game first, then tried all the different outcomes and reload.

And then afterwards I decided I like this one the best.

And then loaded the game back before the end.

Do the great ending that I love the most

Do the great ending that I love the most.

and then stop playing for the rest of my life and decide this is the end I want.

So it's.

So it is.

Oh my god.

Do you want to spend the rest of the podcast analysing this dude or what?

Do you want to spend the rest of the podcast analyzing this dude or what?

I'm wondering if there's a possibility in

Ik vraag me af of er een mogelijkheid is in

your experience to go about it this way because you have to play through the

your experience to approach it this way because you have to play through the

entire thing each time.

I've had people who have

done my experience and sat there this half an hour each one, sat there for two hours

I did my experience and sat there for half an hour each, sat there for two hours.

or over two hours to get as many different branching narratives as they could find

or over two hours to gather as many different branching narratives as they could find

because they were very curious, they didn't the ending.

because they were very curious, they didn't want to miss the ending.

Maybe their initial ending was a safe

Maybe their initial ending was a safe.

ending and then they were curious because there's different branches.

Ending and then they were curious because there are different branches.

But there's three distinct endings where you're

Maar er zijn drie verschillende eindes waarin je bent

fully compliant and you're basically your consciousness is uploaded to the cloud

volledig compliant en je bewustzijn wordt in feite geüpload naar de cloud

because that's really where you're going to end up.

want dat is echt waar je terecht zult komen.

You're totally, totally compliant, digitally compliant and all your.

You're totally, totally compliant, digitally compliant and all yours.

Sounds like eternal life as well.

Klinkt ook als een eeuwig leven.

Yeah, eternal. I'd love some.

Yeah, eeuwig. Ik zou er wel wat willen.

You'd love some.

Je zou er dol op zijn.

You see, that's you, that's consistent with you basically in the other game.

You see, that's you, that's basically consistent with you in the other game.

And then the other ending was

where you're exited out of a

world and you've got no digital identity or control.

wereld en je hebt geen digitale identiteit of controle.

So then you're very much limited in your mobility.

And then there's one in the middle.

So you can go and you can do multiple ones if you want.

I'm really looking forward to it.

And thanks for both creating this experience and sharing it with us as well.

And thank you for both creating this experience and sharing it with us as well.

And thanks for your time talking to us in this podcast.

I know Hans needs to go.

So we're pressed for time.

So we're short on time.

So I'm going to switch back to Dutch and I have one more question for you.

In Dutch?

The way I have to end this podcast is tradition.

Is he going to ask me Dutch?

No, I'm not.

I'm going to end it. I'm joking.

Ik ga het beëindigen. Ik maak een grapje.

Tot zover deze aflevering van Met Nerds Om Tafel.

That concludes this episode of With Nerds at the Table.

En Met Nerds Om Tafel is een podcast van Jurri-Jan Ubergs en mij, Randall Peelen.

And With Nerds at the Table is a podcast by Jurri-Jan Ubergs and me, Randall Peelen.

We hadden twee gastneurts.

We had two guest neurons.

De eerste gastneurt was...

The first guest was...

So the first guest was Karen Palmer.

Karen, thanks for joining us and thanks for taking the time to do so.

Karen, bedankt dat je bij ons bent en bedankt dat je de tijd ervoor hebt genomen.

Can you point us anywhere online where people can learn more about you?

Can you point us to any online places where people can learn more about you?

Oh, okay.

So there's a consensusgentium,

So there's a consensus gentium,

which they see the spelling in the podcast, .ai is the website,

but we're about doing a revamp because we're about to launch the app.

maar we zijn bezig met een vernieuwing omdat we de app gaan lanceren.

And there's my social media, like my Insta is Storyteller from the Future.

Okay.

And yeah, you could, and my website is karenpalmer.uk.

Yeah, so they can find out when the app's

going to be released on the consensusgentium website.

You need to update the consensusgentium site because the...

They're in the process of revamping it.

Ze zijn bezig met het vernieuwen ervan.

It may even be...

The certificate has been revamped.

I'm being exposed.

It's expired actually.

Oh my God, are you going to put this on the podcast?

Are you putting me on blast?

Are you calling me out?

We're the nerds, we have to warn you.

We zijn de nerds, we moeten je waarschuwen.

I'm supposed to be some techno storyteller from the future shit.

Ik zou een soort techno verhalenverteller uit de toekomst moeten zijn, schijt.

And I'm being exposed on this podcast. Abort, abort.

I'm now going back to the future.

Ik ga nu terug naar de toekomst.

No, no, no, no, no. I've been exposed.

I can still visit the website.

I am going back to the future.

If you accept the exception.

I'm not staying no longer in this present.

Ik blijf niet langer in dit heden.

Listeners, I will see you in the future.

I won't tell you what happens to this podcast in the future.

The certificate will be fixed in the future.

It will. We promise.

Hans de Zwart, waar kunnen mensen meer over jou te weten komen?

Hans de Zwart, where can people learn more about you?

Door mijn naam in een zoekmachine te typen.

By typing my name into a search engine.

En niet in LinkedIn.

And not on LinkedIn.

Ja.

Yes.

Waarom zou je dat doen?

Why would you do that?

In plaats daarvan wil ik mensen aanraden om mee te doen met de fantastische leesclub

Instead, I want to recommend that people join the fantastic book club.

van de 99% Invisible podcast over de Power Broker, de biografie van Robert Moses.

from the 99% Invisible podcast about the Power Broker, the biography of Robert Moses.

Wat het boek is wat mij veruit het meeste joy bezorgt dit jaar.

What the book is that brings me the most joy this year.

Power Brokers, die schrijven we op.

Power Brokers, we are noting that down.

Dank je wel.

Thank you.

Voor nu hartelijk dank voor het luisteren en tot de volgende keer.

For now, thank you very much for listening, and see you next time.

Tot de volgende keer.

Until next time.

Surveillance en XR: ervaar de duistere kanten van je eigen keuzes