Adam's Lumpen Potato Adventure

Shall we start with a minute's silence for Columbo?

And that's the intro.

What do you fucking believe it? It's Look Radio, Season 6, Episode 1.

My name is Adam Sweet.

I'm Trish Proctor.

I'm Stuart Langridge.

I'm Jono Bacon.

And I'm Abe Bradshaw.

Yes, returning!

It's nice to have you in the room, actually.

Unlike the other two bastards, Lavelle and Sparks were invited and they didn't come.

Well, when you said they were invited, I mean, I was kind of invited, right?

No, you liar! You were invited. You were fully invited.

On Tuesday.

You just didn't get all the emails that everybody else got.

Oh, you didn't have enough time for the tremendous preparation that you usually do for an episode.

That's a fair point.

I believe you have been owned.

This week on the show.

We have a segment called The Devil's Drink, which you'll find out about later.

And Adam Wells was here.

Yes, you will.

He won't find out quite as much as I did.

We're also going to be talking about the recent news regarding LibreOffice, OpenOffice and the Oracle Love Triangle.

And we're also going to be again discussing the next virus situation.

Is it a threat or is it not?

And Jono will put the boot into Identica.

No!

That is an unfair characterisation.

Sorry, Jono had me.

All right, let's get this show on the road.

Sounds like a fun-packed show.

In the world of social networking, everybody knows about Twitter.

And a lot of people in the free software world know about Identica.

For those of you who don't know what it is, it's basically a free software version of Twitter.

And on Identica, I think it's safe to say there is a certain demographic of users.

Those users are free software users.

And there has been some critique at times.

Mr. Langridge, I'm going to turn this shitty stick back around to you.

It's not just me.

No, it's both of you, isn't it?

There has been some critique that Identica is sometimes a little bit tunnel-visioned in perspectives.

So many of us will post to both Twitter and Identica at the same time because we want to appeal to both groups.

And consequently, you sometimes get reasonable responses.

And a total booting on Identica.

Do we all have both accounts, by the way?

Just a little poll?

What about you, Sweet?

No.

No?

Do you have a computer?

Yes.

I do now.

I only signed it to Twitter about two months ago.

I've avoided it for that long.

Welcome to the internet.

I thought it was Web 2.0 bollocks.

And what?

I would never take off.

Which is exactly what these two thought when I was using Twitter.

And they were ripping the piss out of me for it.

I absolutely agree.

I have sympathy for Adam's point of view.

I don't have an Identica account.

But you've got a Twitter account.

How many followers have you got, by the way?

After two months, given the fact that you're the famous...

How many followers have you got who aren't in this room?

It's about 30 or so, I think.

Ashton Kutcher.

Most of us have got both.

And I just wanted to know, which is your primary?

So, for me, it started off with Twitter.

It was definitely my primary.

And these days, it's absolutely switched over.

I very rarely ever post to Twitter these days.

I always...

The first one I fire up is Identica.

And why is that?

I've even put on my Twitter that I don't use this anymore.

And I was the first person to sign up for Twitter.

I'm not the first person in the world.

Amongst us, obviously.

Is there a reason why you've switched it that way?

Just because there's more open source people on there.

And it has things like groups.

And you can do exclamation marks as well as hashtags and things like that.

Right.

And so...

There's more...

There's a higher percentage of open source people on Identica, obviously.

So, you've chosen that mainly because of the audience?

It wasn't really a conscious choice.

I just found myself using Identica way more often.

Right.

Yeah.

Language?

So, which is your primary?

My absolute primary is Twitter.

I used to post to both and read both.

And these days, I post to and read Twitter.

And I don't use Identica at all.

I wrote a blog post about this a year or so ago.

A couple of years ago.

Something like that.

Exactly because...

Yes, the audience on Identica is open source.

But most of the stuff I talk about on Twitter has nothing to do with hacking.

It's what I did that day.

Where I'm going this evening.

What I'm thinking about in general.

I'm not interested in spending...

What, they're playing in the pub a lot of the time, isn't it?

Yes, exactly.

The horrible, horrible, horrible music in pubs in Stourbridge.

Yeah.

So, my problem was that I spent a bunch of time posting to both.

And I got interesting conversations on Twitter and on Identica.

People wanted to talk about free software.

And nothing but free software.

Okay.

And John, I guess yours is...

Your primary is Twitter.

I'm both equally.

Do you have it where, like, both questions are everyone.

Do you have it where you post to one and it coppers it to the other one?

No, mine...

I post using Gwibber.

So, it goes to Twitter and Identica equally.

And I read both of them equally.

But then I have...

My Twitter feed is aggregated to Facebook as well.

So, if I post, it goes to the three of them.

And for me, I am...

You're still a whore then, aren't you, Baker?

Pretty much, yeah.

Social media whore, let's be clear.

So, which do you have?

I have both.

I mainly post to Identica when it forwards to Twitter.

I very, very rarely post to Twitter.

Unless I've forgotten, basically.

I've forgotten that I'm sending it to Identica.

Okay, yeah.

So, that's...

But essentially, because...

Yeah, there are a lot more free software people on Identica.

And they...

You know, the people I'm...

You know, my friends tend to be free software people.

So, they tend to be on Identica.

Whereas on Twitter, a lot of the people I follow are people who I don't know.

But who post interesting stuff anyway.

Yeah, that's the same for me, actually.

I suppose my thing is not just...

I mean, yeah, a lot of my friends are free software people.

But I like talking to them about things that aren't free software.

Yeah, but I don't see...

You weren't allowed to do that.

Yeah.

But it doesn't seem to happen.

Yeah, but the other thing is...

Get new friends.

Okay, why are you not?

I like talking to people whose worldview is not...

You have to use free software and nothing else.

Yeah.

Like, the amount of times...

And I don't know whether this is a fault...

Part of the reason why I was interested in talking about this is whether...

This is something to do with Identica.

Whether it's something to do with the choices that the people in Identica make.

Or whether it's something to do with me.

Did you just agree to that, by the way?

What?

Did you just agree to that statement?

Which statement?

The one about people who use software other than free software.

Yes.

Okay.

Because you used to be a staunch advocate of...

I've changed my opinion quite a lot in the last...

Quite a lot.

...few years.

And the thing is, the amount of times I've posted something on, you know, again, to Twitter and Identica.

And it's just been...

It's not been anything particularly controversial.

It's just been...

I've made...

Like, I'll mention Skype.

Or I'll mention something else that's non-free.

Or I'll just mention anything.

And somebody will...

Oh, what about copyright assignment?

You know?

But I don't know whether that's me, because I'm the Ubuntu community manager.

Never had that.

Or whether that's because...

Really?

I mean, that's the thing I was bringing up.

When I wrote the blog post...

Well, so if you put the word Skype in something, somebody replies to you saying,

What about copyright assignment?

There has been countless situations where a relatively innocent tweet has resulted in a ranty thread on Identica.

And there's always the same people on it.

I'm obviously not going to say who those people are.

Who are they?

Blah!

No, but I mean, I love Fab, and Brad Coon is usually in there, and there's a bunch of other people.

And, you know, respect to these people, because they believe in free software, and that's where they're at.

Basically, that's not an Identica's problem.

That's a community problem.

That's a problem you have with them as people, possibly, or the way they post.

No, it's not probably them, specifically.

And if there was only ever Twitter, then you'd have the same problem with Twitter.

No, but the reason why I've noticed it is because...

No.

Whenever that happens, it's always on Identica.

And it's not just those people.

I mean, those people participate in it.

I mean, Bradley Coon and I will talk elsewhere.

We've talked over email and things like that.

And I have total respect for Fab and Brad and these other guys, but...

Are you saying he's different when he's not on Identica, or he still has the same views?

No, I'm just saying that it turns into...

It's a conversation...

Often, it'll start out with just a couple of people, and then it just gets dogpiled by people.

That's the point.

It's not just that you get dogpiled on Identica.

That's not necessarily the problem.

It's...

The example I gave in the blog post I wrote, I picked one day in my life, and I named the

things I tweeted about.

And my dad had been to a garden party and met the queen, which I thought was quite cool,

you know.

And I...

In what way is that cool, by the way?

My dad met the queen?

No.

Right?

Okay.

It's the royalist segment over there.

Right, yeah.

Bloody Republican.

Shut up.

Ignore the fact that she's a bitch.

Oi!

Not the point.

Not a royalist.

Simple conversation.

Yeah, the...

Topical.

I mentioned a few other things, like I was playing with DoubleTwist on Android, and...

What is this?

Mentioned a couple of problems I had with it.

Some kind of euphemism.

No, it's a music-syncing thing.

Mentioned a bunch of other stuff, and people on Twitter responded to those things.

I had normal conversations, and then sometimes you might get battered about free software

or whatever.

On Identica, no one responded to any of the normal stuff at all.

There was no ordinary discussion.

Either...

You know, I wouldn't have minded people saying, oh, what do you want to go to the queen for?

Be a Republican.

That's fine.

That would be an interesting...

None of that happened.

I got jumped on about free software, and that was it.

So that makes me think, okay, I can't have ordinary conversations.

All I can do on Identica is get shouted at.

So what the fuck's the point?

Which is why I don't use it anymore.

And you're not going to leave the open-source world, are you?

Because that happens a lot in the open-source world.

You get shouted at, and you get these zealots and...

But what I did...

You used to be fairly zealoty yourself.

Indeed, yes.

And this is...

The post that I wrote was exactly about this, because I was being shouted at for not being

as fervent a supporter of free software as I was.

Ah, okay, all right.

And the point I was trying to make was that I believe in it just as much.

I just don't shout about it as much.

Yes, exactly.

And what I was annoyed about was that I was being perceived as being less supporting of

free software simply because I'm less annoying about it to other people.

As if the fervency of my belief is defined by how many people I bollock rather than what

I actually do.

That was the source of my annoyance.

Not bad.

About Identica.

The thing that worries me a little bit as well...

But that's moving on to the free software zealotry generally, rather than Identica.

The thing that worries me a little bit about this is that, you know, I've been using Identica

for a few years now, and the thing that worries me more and more is that as time goes on,

I'm just noticing...

I'm noticing more and more people, not just in the Ubuntu community, but elsewhere, who

will say, oh, that's typical Identica.

Like, it's as if their reputation has started brewing about it, that it's just full of people

who have that very, very hard...

Hardened perspective about free software.

So it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Some people like it, therefore everyone says they like it, therefore people who think like

that go to Identica more, and other people are forced away.

And a lot of people have ditched it.

I know a lot of people who've ditched it because they don't want to...

Because for example...

Yeah, but you've got lots of people who've ditched Twitter.

Yeah, but the reason why these people have ditched Twitter is because of the philosophical

reasons.

Well...

No one ditches Twitter for any other reason than the fact that they don't like either

the company Twitter or the fact that it's closed.

For me, it became really commercial.

And it's just all those businesses and all those stars and all...

Yeah, but you choose to read them.

I mean, just don't read those, follow these people.

That's the other question I was going to ask, is do you restrict who follows you, or do

you just let anybody follow you?

Anyone.

Just let anybody follow me.

So I'm just...

Because I'm quite restrictive about who I let follow me.

Oh, right.

Yeah, so, you know, maybe...

I feel honoured now.

You see, to me, that kind of defeats the point.

If I want to dictate who I'm going to...

I barely use Facebook.

Okay, so on Facebook, do you have everybody friendly?

Anyone who sends you a friend request, do you just accept it, or do you just let your

friends in?

I'm pretty liberal.

If I know them...

You're a fucking minister manager, I guess, so you have to be.

Well, yeah, if I've spoken to them online, then I'll...

You know, if I know them and I recognise their name, I'll be friends with them.

I don't accept strangers, but...

Yeah, Facebook is really part of my job, so it's not really as personal as it could be.

That's your job.

You have to blog and go on Facebook, and that's what you do for a living.

Yeah.

And that's your job.

Yeah.

Shit doesn't sink, so...

However!

Actually, that's unfair, it does sink now.

Thank you, there it is.

So I've done my job, you see.

So, yeah, so the only thing that worries me a little bit is that, like, there's a guy

called John Phillips who, I don't know if he still does work for status.net, but he

did work there as a community manager.

I sat down with him one night and I said to him, like, I'm worried that Identica is kind

of being painted as this place that's a bit extremist, so, you know, if you do post something,

people dogpile you.

And he'd seen some of...

And I said to him, like, is there something you can solve?

He said, well, it's not really something we can police, obviously.

It's not something that status.net can...

Is that what you wanted, by the way?

No.

Right.

But what I want to know is how we can solve the problem, because it worries me that...

I think it's great to...

To me, it'd be like going to a lug and being kicked out of the lug because you use Skype.

You see, but you...

Or not being welcome.

But you don't necessarily...

There's no problem with having a Twitter for free software discussions, and that being

Identica.

It just means that people on Identica should stop saying, this is an alternative to Twitter,

and say it's an alternative to Twitter.

And for people who want to talk primarily and solely about free software stuff...

But that's not its business case.

That's not its...

No, exactly.

Their argument is it's for everybody, but it's not for everybody.

Because if you go there and want to talk about your dad seeing the Queen, nobody listens.

If it was...

So, ultimately, it just needs more people.

It just needs...

Because at the moment, the people that are on there are just open source people, so it

just needs more normal people to join it.

Maybe that's the solution.

But what's the motive for normal people to go there?

Well, exactly.

What's the motive for normal people to stop using Windows and use Linux, you know?

It's been colonised by a demographic who owns...

Only care about free software, because otherwise, they'd just be using Twitter.

If you didn't care about free software, you'd just use Twitter.

Exactly, yeah.

And the thing is...

Do you think, though, you're being a bit oversensitive about this?

Is this not, like, kind of how shit works?

And, you know, big arguments happen.

Yeah.

You say something, somebody says, oh, that's bollocks, because...

I mean, they don't really mean it as an insult.

They don't mean it as kind of, like, all your opinions are worthless.

It's just kind of a...

The net's moved in an argument, and then you're expected to argue back and say, no, well,

you're worthless.

Yeah, I mean, it's...

It makes...

It's the...

The argument...

The argument is the fun.

No, no.

In my experience, it's worse on Identica than it is on mailing lists.

But I think, certainly...

And worse than it on Identica than it is on Forrest.

Some of the people who you...

I haven't seen your arguments with one or two people on Identica.

I think some of them just argue purely for the comedy value of having the argument.

Right.

And, you know...

If you argued back, they would have a lot of respect for that, and that would be fine.

You know, even if you beat them in the argument, they'd be happy with that.

I think that's the other thing, as well, is that, like...

Maybe the way I'm looking at it, where Identica's part of my job,

so I look at it in a different way in terms of...

The discussions there are often...

They relate to, you know, the work that I do.

And if somebody's using it as a hobby, where debating online and arguing online is a bit of fun,

maybe that's two different lenses in which people view Identica.

Maybe that's the reason why I see it a little bit different.

I think the other thing is that if it was run by the Free Software Foundation,

I'd have no issue whatsoever.

Because you expect free software people, and if you go on there and you expect...

And you're not a 100% free software person, and, you know...

Yeah.

Then you shouldn't expect...

That kind of leeway.

But, as Zach says, it's kind of like a replacement for Twitter.

So you'd be happy getting a bollocking if it was from the Free Software Foundation,

but not if it's from real people.

I'd see no reason for me to complain, because that's the culture of the Free Software Foundation.

This next segment is called The Devil's Drink.

Although Jono is insisting we call it Ye Olde Lump and Filthy Potato Water of the Devil.

But that's not what it's called.

It's called The Devil's Drink.

Oh, yes, it is.

And it's a quiz show.

It's a quiz game.

But with a slightly lug radio twist, in that this is the only segment we've ever had

where we've had to pre-prepare a bucket in the middle of the room.

There really is a bucket here.

Okay, so the idea is, we've all written questions, and we've put them in a hat,

which Jono has.

Oh, shuffle the hat, yes.

Jono's baseball cap, which he wears to look like Fred Durst.

And the idea is you will draw out a question,

and if you get the question right, you will nominate someone else.

If you get the question wrong, you stay in the hot seat.

The person in the hot seat has to drink the Lump and Filthy Potato Water of the Devil.

You need to explain that to me.

And the ingredients in Ye Olde Lump and Filthy Potato Water of the Devil are, Adam Sweet.

No.

In one, we have fiery chilli twisted ketchup.

We need the fucking bullseye dude to do this.

In two, we have...

In three, we have marmite.

In four, we have Tabasco sauce.

In five, my favourite and yours, it's salmon paste.

In six, and just to make it slightly reasonable,

Thiexton's Old Peculiar, which is a bit.

Now, it should be clear that even though we said in, and then different numbers,

they're all actually in the same glass.

So I have this...

Mix.

I have this...

Mix.

Delicious looking glass of Black Eve.

With an iceberg of salmon paste floating in the top.

Adam was very, very sick just with the look of his drink earlier.

So this can't possibly go well.

By glass, you actually mean child's plastic cup, yes?

I do suspect it's dissolving its way through the bottom of the cup as we speak.

It's just...

Can we get this out of the way?

Right, so to explain the rules,

the way it works is, you get asked a question,

if you get the question correct,

then you volunteer someone else to sit in the hot seat,

and that person, and they have to drink.

They drink the lump and filth.

If you get the question wrong,

then you have to drink the lump and filth,

and then you stay in the hot seat and get another question.

The twist, and the thing which takes it from a copy of UUPC's quiz show

into our own thing,

is whether you got the question right or not is decided by everyone else voting.

So...

Who are all on their honour?

Yes, they're all on their honour.

These people would never lie, would they?

No, absolutely not, and I'm ashamed of it.

You've got a little bit hurt that you'd even suggest it.

You've got to reasonably vote that the question was answered correctly.

Yes.

Okay.

So, when it comes down to it, right,

I can't imagine for a second,

if it's a 50-50 regards to being right or wrong...

Because there are four people voting, yeah, you're right.

Yeah.

I can't imagine a little tickle of mischief in the bulk of somebody's mind.

That would never happen on my radio.

You should just make him drink it.

No.

The person who is going...

So, Tony...

Hello!

...is going to break ties.

Typical Saturday night for Tony.

All right, so, we've voted all that act is going to go to the list.

RACs don't know my RACs, right?

Plus, fuck all of them, just to be clear.

All right.

All of them come together here.

Right, okay.

So, I have a question.

I hope I'm...

It begins.

I hope I'm genuinely, properly right about this.

Right.

Okay, my question.

Who is the author of Pity V?

Just to confirm, that's the question.

Yes, the video.

Who is the author of Pity V, which I assume is the video tool?

And my answer is...

Edward Hervey.

Okay.

Let's vote.

Did I get it right?

You got that right, so up for me.

Yeah.

Okay, I got that right.

Correct.

So, I now need to nominate someone to drink and then have the next question.

I nominate Adam Swinney.

I'm sure you've got an extra large, floaty piece of coke as well.

Well, I've got the same.

Look, it's massive.

I've got a massive, floaty thing of salmon.

It's the same thing.

You're going to fucking pay for this.

Drink.

And, as a second point, I want to remind you, I'm sitting on your bed.

First of all, you have to drink.

Have I got to drink mine, or have I got to drink yours?

No, you have to drink yours.

I thought you only drank.

Have you got the question wrong?

No, no, no, because I nominated him.

That's the point.

Ah, okay.

Right, right, right.

I nominated him.

Then, if he gets the next question wrong, he has to drink some more.

Then he has to drink some more.

But, he'll probably get it right.

I mean, I've got a question about piss, right?

So, it's inherently...

Yeah, he gets it right.

Right, so you have to drink, first of all.

I ought to say, right, not only am I horribly afraid, right, I think my chances of getting

a second question right after this, drinking this, are pretty fucking slim.

And, I think I'm going to be sick as well.

Okay, well.

The problem is...

We've moved the bucket closer to Adam.

Right.

Do you smell that, just before I go?

Oh, that'll help, yeah.

Yeah, you're right.

It smells delicious.

Just before we go...

It smells like mine.

It's actually quite nice.

Yeah, you'll forgive me for stalling.

I don't...

I'm retching at the thought of someone.

Adam, just do it.

Just do it.

I've got extra Tabasco.

This is going to be fucking...

Has anyone ever seen the episode of Bottom, where they have the gas man come round?

Yeah.

So, make him drink cold tea.

Right.

But, you might want to pick up the bin, if you really think you're going to vomit.

Right.

It's going to be a hearty swig, apparently.

We're looking for a good hearty swig.

If you're going to spew, spew into this bin.

You've got to knock at least half of it back.

Half of it, I'd say.

And, don't worry about the ice cube.

You've got to the lonesome.

Okay, ladies and gentlemen.

This is far worse than the finger of God.

Oh, he was close there, then he bottled it.

Just to knock on his face there.

That was about half a mouthful.

You were a bit more careful than you were before, Adam.

There is no word.

That was not hard.

That was half a mouthful.

Come on, that was...

Two mouthfuls.

I don't know, like, he said he was first.

Yeah, he was us, right.

Let's be fair, Adam drinks some water.

Right, Adam, pick a question.

What?

There is no word.

I'm not that bad.

Yeah, do you want some chocolate?

Do you want some chocolate?

It's sponsored by Cabaret.

It's sponsored by Cabaret for this episode.

Well, not really.

I'm going to be shitting fire for a week.

What are we going to do?

You cannot make a question.

That is proper rough, though.

Eat some chocolate first, maybe.

Okay.

Read out your question.

What is the current version of Fedora?

If only I'd got that one.

And I'd say 15.

Okay.

So, we're going to go round and round.

Are we talking coming stable version?

Or just...

Stable, I imagine.

Well, decide.

I know, that wasn't what I was asking.

No, no, no, no, no.

Right, I'm going to go no on that.

Right, no, that's a no.

That's a no.

That's a nose around.

That's a four no.

It's a round table.

My lips are on fire.

You might as well throw it in the vomit bin.

So, what is the current version?

It's rawhide, you know, it's always current.

Hold on.

Go on, drink up.

Adam, how can that...

Clarify.

How can that specify?

Dude, it's the current version.

The judges have spoken.

Right.

Drink it.

See, I avoided the fucking salmon last time.

Let's drink again.

By the way...

Adam drinks again.

Given this is your second turn, we're not going to be quite so forgiving in how much

you drink.

Knock it.

We're...

It's easy for you to say you haven't had any yet.

I haven't got anything wrong yet.

Not happening.

I haven't got anything...

I haven't got anything wrong yet.

I've been in a situation where, I've Häring my wounds.

Okay, ladies and gentlemen.

Adam takes drink number two.

He's gone almost white was the second one.

Yes, fuck off.

Okay, this time, here we go.

It's almost all gone.

That didn't hurt as much.

Oh, really?

It's alright, the second time.

Ah, okay, okay.

Finish it off there.

Rip.

Okay

Adam remains in the hot seat

Because he got it wrong

Ask another question

This is a fucking fix isn't it

Next question

Hey no cheating

You bastard

Try to draw your own question out

It doesn't matter which question he draws

The judges decision is final

True this is true

On the plus side you can't taste the marmong

Okay next question

This has got to be

Which grep switch gives the number of lines that match

Okay

You have to have a grep switch question

My fucking lips are burning

I'm not going out tonight

I'm going to be like the fucking nutty professor

When he starts getting fat again

I have no idea

Oh dear

What

I think that's the incorrect answer

I'll make a guess at C

A 1 in 26 chance

It is actually right

It is minus 2

I'm going to go with no

But it's right

It's right

Well maybe

Don't be an arsehole

I think two mouthfuls is enough to be honest

Of whatever it's lump and arsehole or whatever it's called

Bear in mind that you're supposed to be

A sysadmin

I think you should have had that

Right off the top of your head

And the hesitation was just not good enough

Don't go

It's a big thumbs down from me

I'm a fag

Third one will be easy

It's ours for them

It's the rules

Okay

Right

I got it right

You bunch of arseholes

Look we

Oh and that means it's me again

Pick a question

I'll take a drink

Do you want some chocolate?

It's going to be

It's going to be easy the third time

You said it was nice at the second time then

So bad

Is swirling it really going to help?

Burn my lips

Just mix the salmon in

There's not that much left

You've got to eat the salmon

I'll tell you what

Top it up from someone else's

Yeah that's alright

I was trying to be helpful

Right fuck this

Oh I've got to get the salmon away

Be careful with the bit

That's a bit of vertebra there

Oh well done sir

Yes

Look at that

That was champion

I would eat all of that chocolate now

That entire

Did you eat the salmon?

No

I can't do the salmon

Okay

Pick a question

I'd have piped it into a word count

But personally

So would I

I'd have

Yeah

That would have

Yeah that would have been

Okay

Next question

Are you joking?

Well that's got to be yours

Or yours

Which products are in the fridge

In the London Canonical Office?

Oh milk

Milk

I know the answer to the pit of you question

Right

I hope to be an arsehole

But I refuse to answer this question

It's a question

Is this popular knowledge do you think

In the open source world?

Right

Well

No

Sorry

I ain't drinking no more

And I ain't answering that either

I think we've had a fair game Adam

So you're stepping out?

How the fuck am I supposed to know the answer to that?

Come on

Oh fuck you man

I am struck

Three mouthfuls of evil putrid shit

And nobody else is in front of me

So I guess we'll wrap it up there then

Thank you Adam

Oh yeah pleasure

So glad you came today

Minus six

Next

Somebody else have a go

Although you might be inclined to say

This looks a lot like a fix

Adam if you did it right

Then you're dead to nominate yeah?

So surely if you refuse

If you refuse to answer it

I think you're dead to nominate Jono as well

It doesn't work like that

There's one question left

Well I'm not answering

Well alright

Should we all drink a very small amount in solidarity?

That seems fair

Not the first time you've said that

There is actually one question left

I think we should get someone to ask it

I don't know what it is

Adam here's to you mate

Here's to you

Here's to Adam

Well played

Oh Jesus Christ

Oh water

Oh my God

That's your idea

Oh that's repugnant

Oh my God

Shut up Adam

Now maybe you'll forgive me

For refusing to answer a question

I couldn't possibly know

It's quite salty isn't it

Understood

All right, so the premier office suite in the open-source world

is obviously OpenOffice, which was owned by Sun

up until a year or so ago when Sun was brought out by Oracle.

Now, recently there's obviously been quite a large split

where a lot of the developers have gone off and formed LibreOffice,

and I think a lot of the distributions are starting to package that

and play with that.

And Oracle have then basically gone,

we don't really care about this anymore,

and given the source code over to Apache as an incubator project.

I think that's a reasonably fair brief summary of what's going on.

Yes, that's good.

Phew.

So basically the question is,

how is this whole controversy going to affect us?

We need an office suite.

How is this going to affect us?

Is the fork a bad thing?

I think it potentially could have a bad effect

because a lot of people know the name OpenOffice,

and so...

So they may well go to the OpenOffice website

and see that nothing's happened.

It basically looks like it's ceased development.

And nobody really knows LibreOffice at the moment,

so they really need to do a little bit of marketing there, I guess.

I've never heard myself say that phrase.

But yeah, so I think it really could have a detrimental effect.

I have to admit, I tried to install OpenOffice the other day

because I needed it for something,

and I got very confused trying to find out where the hell it was

just in the yum list output

until I realised it was LOffice.

I think there's a big distinction

between...

it being an open-source office suite

available to open-source desktop users, Linux users,

and it being an open-source office suite

available to Windows users and Mac users, for example.

Yeah.

And, yeah, if the OpenOffice project stagnates

and LibreOffice continues,

then people going to...

people who are using it on Windows

may well go to the OpenOffice site and think,

oh, look, nothing has changed.

It must be bollocks.

But presumably people in distributions won't.

Well, no.

I guess if you're doing what I did,

which was install it on a Fedora or whatever.

What does Fedora ship right now?

Does it ship...

It ships Libre.

It ships Libre as well.

I don't know what OpenSUSE ships.

Are they still going?

Ooh!

Ouch!

Confidential.

Good point.

Well argued.

Good question.

It's a good question because no one knows the answer,

which is in itself disturbing.

Yes, they are.

They are going.

So you had to search for LOffice.

Yeah, I think I ended up finding...

I think it was LOffice or LibreOffice or something.

It wasn't OpenOffice.

It wasn't packaged as OpenOffice,

which caused me, yeah, to say...

Is it not installed by default?

Not on my install.

No?

I mean, I didn't think I'd need it.

I've had that installed for, like, you know, months

and I've not actually needed it until now,

so it wasn't installed.

I think the thing is...

But is that the point now?

I mean, it's one thing in an OpenSource desktop.

I mean, surely we need the rest of the world

to know about it as well.

Well, that was exactly the point.

What do we do about the idea of getting OpenSource

onto people's desktops that aren't OpenSource desktops?

So who now owns OpenOffice.org website?

That's Apache.

Oh, no, no, Apache now, yeah.

They...

Oracle, yeah, signed it all over to Apache.

I think Oracle retained something.

Probably.

Like, a joint copyright of the code or something.

But pretty much everything went to Apache.

And so how difficult would it be to convince them

to just put a forward to...

They're not interested in doing so, is the point.

Because they could have done exactly that.

Well, the key point as well is that

what a lot of people don't know about OpenOffice

is that not only do...

Well, did Sun, and therefore Oracle,

invest a lot in it, but also IBM.

IBM and Sun came to an agreement

and IBM put a lot of money into development for OpenOffice

because that's what powers their symphony suite.

And what was part of this controversy

was the fact that IBM want to keep on investing

in OpenOffice, I believe.

So now you've got this thing where OpenOffice

has got a commercial backer, which is IBM.

The distributions, the Linux distributions

are behind LibreOffice.

And the community's behind.

And to me, it seems like this is broken into two areas.

One is how healthy the development is on the office suite.

And then also how well it's known in the marketing.

And I think we'd all agree that OpenOffice

is a way better brand than LibreOffice right now,

which is obvious.

But this problem with OpenOffice

has been going on for the last couple of years.

I remember two years ago, I think it was,

being on a phone call with Simon Phipps and Michael Meeks.

Michael Meeks was the person who really did a lot

of this work to make it LibreOffice.

And they were trying to...

slim down the source code and, you know,

so people could hack on different bits of it

and make it more accessible.

And it was going nowhere, because Sun didn't do anything.

Sun were a company who were very big on management and process

and not so big on code.

I thought they put quite a lot of code into OpenOffice.

They did, but part of the problem was that

Sun acquired Star Division,

who originally made Star Office,

but then became OpenOffice.

So they had this office in, I think it was Munich,

where everybody knows it inside out.

And it's very difficult for new people to come on,

board and hack on it.

And the same way that it happened with Netscape Communicator.

And then eventually Firefox came out of the ashes

of Netscape Communicator,

and they slimmed some of it down

and they improved some bits of it.

And I think that's the thing, is that for so long,

the reason why OpenOffice went nowhere

is because it was too hard to hack on.

I mean, it takes two days to build it.

I mean, but now what they're doing is,

it seems to me, from what I've seen already,

that with LibreOffice,

it seems way more community friendly.

You know, it seems like a lot of people

are hacking on different things.

We've already seen lots of things changing.

So I think it's good for that.

One of the things that is different

between LibreOffice and OpenOffice,

which is kind of an important thing,

is that LibreOffice is LGPL, if I remember rightly.

Yeah.

Because basically that's what they could get.

They get the source code under that license,

and so that's what they started off with.

And of course, Apache Demand Everything

is under the Apache public license,

which is BSD-based, I think,

but essentially different and incompatible.

Yeah.

So you can't merge the two projects to not merge back.

Yeah.

Because any changes that have been made to LibreOffice

cannot be re-licensed.

Or without the agreement of the developers,

and the developers don't want to.

My hope is that they slim it down.

I mean, Ak and I were talking about this at lunch.

You want them to do a Firefox?

Yeah.

Do what Firefox did to Netscape.

Make it really modular, slim it down.

I think some of that work's happening already.

I saw a post from, is it Meeks, Michael Meeks,

about probably two or three weeks ago,

and they'd done some work that trimmed out

something like 150 redundant icons,

which is a trivial example.

All the performance stuff.

Yeah.

But they'd also trimmed down,

the source code tree from something like 75 gig down to 11.

Yeah.

Because there's so much bullshit in there,

the code that's never used.

Wow.

They were doing that kind of thing.

That's huge.

The code that's been compiled in,

but it's never executed.

Yeah.

That kind of thing.

Yeah, I think it'd be brilliant if they,

because, I mean, I know that Firefox is not the same

as Netscape Communicator, but...

I like that analogy, though,

because, I mean, Netscape used to have the mindshare,

and then all of a sudden they were just gone, and...

Yeah.

And they open-sourced it,

but no one could work in it,

because it was so big.

But, yeah, I mean, that was...

The problem with that is that, you know,

in the Netscape thing,

Netscape had, what, 30% of the market or whatever

when they open-sourced it,

and by the time they got around to releasing Firefox 0.8

or whatever, that was a bit ropey,

but kind of worked,

they'd gone down to, like, 1% market share.

They'd really...

Because it took two years,

and they didn't release anything in two years.

Yeah.

And if you have the same problem with OpenOffice,

you could have, basically,

an Office suite that stagnates for years,

while people are doing stuff in the background,

but as a user, I'm seeing nothing...

To a first approximation on the world stage,

OpenOffice...

OpenOffice has no users anyway.

It's not like they have 50% of the Office suite market.

They've got 0% of the Office suite market.

That's not true.

It's huge in Germany, OpenOffice.

It's big in corporate rollouts.

Like, a lot of...

Box.

It is.

Absolutely.

So, OpenOffice produce an MSI,

a Windows MSI,

that can be deployed by...

I absolutely believe that they do so.

I mean, one of the interesting sub-questions I have

is that the LibreOffice community

seem to be very Linux desktop focused.

And is that going to...

harm its use on Windows?

But maybe they're just going to say,

well, that's OpenOffice and IBM

we don't give a shit about that stuff.

We're basically building it for Linux.

Which they may do.

But when you say, yeah, yeah,

it's huge in corporate deployments,

what you mean is,

you could put all the names of all the companies

who've deployed it on one piece of paper.

No, what I mean is that it's huge...

Microsoft Office is huge in corporate deployments

because everybody uses it.

No, I mean, yeah, it's not...

I mean, it doesn't take a fucking genius

to realise that it's not as big as Microsoft Office,

but what I'm saying is...

It's not as big as Netscape was.

Netscape had at least 50% of the market at that point.

OpenOffice, though, is not one in two computers...

Right, and we had exactly the same conversations,

what, five years ago, about Firefox.

Right, everyone's using IE.

Oh, no one uses Firefox.

It's only, you know, Linux people use Firefox.

Yeah.

Who's to say this couldn't happen with LibreOffice?

It would be nice to see them get up to 25% of the world.

I'm optimistic.

Hmm?

I'm optimistic.

Why?

Um...

I don't know.

That's not me taking the piss.

That's a serious question.

I think the LibreOffice process is more promising.

What has OpenOffice done in the past?

I mean, some of the people working on it...

It seems to just have way more momentum.

Some of the people working on it now are...

We're still working on it two years ago.

And I've heard a lot of talk which says, you know,

Sun just prevented us from doing stuff

and we didn't want a fork and everything.

But what did Sun do that meant that you couldn't do anything at all

to make it any better than Office 95, which is what it is?

You know, it's not working...

You know what is a good...

I think a good analogy here is that OpenOffice, to me,

was like X386.

It was really hard for anyone to improve X386.

You had to go through this member resolution process.

It was so close.

And so they made X.org.

And then they forked it and they made X.org.

And look at that now.

They've made tons of changes.

It's way faster.

There's a lot more innovation in there.

That's the reason why I'm confident as well.

I mean, because I think...

But then, surely the problem is, though, you've got...

In that case, you had one fork in both...

Yeah, the next day.

They banned the X.org ones.

You have one fork that was obviously dead, basically.

And then somebody forks it off and says,

hey, I'm going to actually take this and do something with it.

And they become...

They get the momentum.

Whereas in the OpenOffice sense, you have two forks.

They both think they have the momentum.

You know, Apache have IBM backing.

OpenOffice think they have momentum.

Well, they have all the marketing behind them.

They have the name.

They have the Apache name, which is kind of a well-known name,

at least in the corporate world.

They have companies.

They have companies who have a budget for making their products popular.

I mean, IBM sells, symphony.

But LibreOffice have the developers.

Or a large chunk of the original...

To be fair, to be fair on the side of it maybe not being as successful,

as we've all seen, you know, with open source,

the majority of the work is done by the companies.

You know, Red Hat, Oracle, Canonical, whoever it might be,

invest the money in making the software.

And so it's a reasonable argument to say,

because there's a big company,

behind OpenOffice,

it kind of bolsters the chances of that.

I think it's where it's going to boil down to a big company

that's not necessarily meeting the needs of the community

or a community that...

Communities have always been nimble on their feet.

X386 is still going.

I mean, what's interesting about it,

I mean, this is back to the point I was making earlier

about the Windows stuff being rather slighted by OpenOffice,

so it wouldn't surprise me if it is.

That suggests that if IBM are the primary backers of the thing,

they'd likely concentrate on things which are useful to IBM customers.

So, corporate deployment stuff, MSIs,

having mail merge work,

integrating with Microsoft SharePoint,

that sort of thing.

You can imagine LibreOffice slighting that kind of work

and instead trying to make something with a stripped-down,

slick user interface that works really well

on a modern Linux distribution like Fedora or Ubuntu,

and fuck a bunch of MSIs.

So it is a true fork in the sense that they are different.

What worries me a little bit is not just the Office suites,

but also the OpenDocumentary,

I mean, the benefit that we had previously

was that OpenOffice and ODF were bedfellows.

Now what happens as the ODF format has continued to develop,

and I saw something I think Meeks posted the other day

about how you describe graphics, vector graphics,

in the ODF format,

and it's a nightmare the way it works right now.

And they want to make some improvements to the spec.

Now what happens, it could turn into a pissing match

where you get LibreOffice who want to do something

for the benefit of LibreOffice,

and then, you know,

IBM push back on it or whatever it might be.

Well, it's not even that IBM pushed back on it.

I mean, the reason ODF got adopted

by a bunch of standards organisations

is because there were people with suits on

whose job it was to go to those standards organisations,

go slowly through the process,

sign agreements on behalf of...

So what's this Document Foundation then?

The OpenDocument Foundation?

I assume that's still tied to OpenOffice,

not to LibreOffice.

Right.

No, OpenDocument Foundation is LibreOffice.

Oh, really?

That's what I thought, yeah.

Who's it being staffed by now, then?

The OpenDocument Foundation is the organisation

that manages LibreOffice.

Right, OK, so who's staffing it?

To the point where they'll go to ISO and say,

OK, let's go through this process.

I think it's...

Well, I think the OpenDocument Foundation...

Are Navelle still behind this stuff?

I think they predated LibreOffice.

I think there used to be the OpenDocument Fellowship,

I think it was, and they were like...

So weren't you in one of some?

I did some work with them for a while.

Yeah, and then...

Do you do your people stuff in the...

Exactly.

And I think that they dismantled

and then it became the OpenDocument Foundation

who look after ODF and all that kind of stuff.

And I think LibreOffice was then taken on by them.

So I don't think IBM and OpenOffice

are as closely aligned in that way.

But IBM did much of the work in getting ODF to be standard.

It's very incestuous.

The very fact that all this crap is really confusing

in itself worries me.

I mean, whatever you think of,

OpenOffice, LibreOffice, whatever,

I personally happen to think it's really annoying

and I don't like using it, but I have to

because I have no choice.

Whatever you think of it, there was at least one of them

and everyone was all pulling in the same direction.

Now, we shall assuredly all hang separately.

So a few years ago, on season two, I believe,

I posed the question that

were we being complacent in the Linux world?

Because...

In the Windows world, you know, they have viruses,

but I was saying that the people in the Windows world,

well, I thought at the time that people in the Windows world

had their, you know, they'd install their operating system

and the first thing they would think of doing

is putting antivirus and anti-malware software on.

Now, they wouldn't consider running Windows

without those things.

It'd be like the idea of us connecting to the internet

without a firewall.

You know, we wouldn't think to do it.

But in the Linux world, I said that we never give it

a second thought and we sit back kind of almost smug

thinking that doesn't affect us, doesn't affect us.

But recently, another group of people who used to think that,

I believe they were once described as

kilt-wearing maniacs by an app.

They are Mac owners.

That sounds a lot more like a joy comment to me,

I have to say.

I think it's orange sunglasses.

Orange sunglasses wearing arseholes.

Kilt-wearing maniacs or something like that.

Anyway, so Mac owners have recently been falling

for these little pop-ups that sort of say, you know,

your computer has been infected by a blah, blah, blah.

And they've been installing this malware

and losing lots of money and things like that.

So, do you think we're...

We're any closer to that now?

Are we concerned?

You don't think it's going to happen to us?

Yes.

Is that blind faith or...

Why don't you think it's going to happen to us?

If it can happen to somebody on a Mac,

why can't it happen to us?

I've been using Linux for 12 years.

I've not had a single virus.

It's the only way.

It should never happen to me.

That's exactly like the old man who says,

I've been smoking 40 fags a day, I'm not dead yet.

Yeah, it is.

It is blind faith.

But frankly, it's...

The reason Jono thinks that is because he's a fucking idiot.

Let's be clear.

No, it's...

I mean, put it this way.

If...

If the Ubuntu project felt like it was a risk

and it was built into Ubuntu,

I wouldn't disable it.

But right now, I'm not worried.

I haven't seen enough in...

With my friends and colleagues of...

I've not...

I don't know anyone who's been affected by a virus in Linux.

So it's so small.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen.

But right now...

Didn't it happen when you guys enabled autoplay

or something recently?

Or not recently.

A year or so ago.

A virus?

Yeah.

No?

Okay.

I must be dreaming or something.

You probably heard that from the propaganda machine

inside Red Hat.

No, I mean...

The point about this stuff is

something that Windows antivirus vendors

have been saying forever,

which is that we don't get targeted

because we're not a big enough deal.

And since one of the big goals

is to become a big enough deal,

we are then going to get targeted.

And I think...

And Mac people are now being targeted.

Exactly.

Yeah, Mac people were never a big enough deal.

To be clear as well, they are.

In two years when we do our next show,

I think I'll answer the question differently.

Because I think it will be at a point

where it will be...

I just don't know where we are today.

You think it will happen,

but we don't have to pre-prepare for it.

We have to shut the stable door

after the horse has bolted.

No, okay.

No, I think that what we do...

No, no, no, that's not what I meant.

No, no, no.

Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal.

That's what I said.

I'm saying that as we get closer to...

We will hear...

Is it because...

We will hear more and more

people getting compromised on Linux.

And at that point, I think...

Wouldn't it be nice to make sure

that no one gets owned

rather than wait until a few examples

have been owned and then fixing it?

No, because...

Can't we preemptively fix it

so no one gets owned ever?

No, I mean...

Wouldn't that be nice?

You can do,

but I think that the risk is so tiny today

that I think it will be...

Is that because you think

we have more savvy users at the moment?

And it wasn't until the Mac started

getting less savvy users

or more regular people using it

that they started falling for this pop-up

that sort of says,

your Mac is...

It's a combination of that.

Well, that's surely the case.

At the moment, at present,

your average Linux user

is significantly more clueful

than your average Windows user.

Agreed.

But certain distributions

are targeting less clueful users.

Yeah.

Yes, absolutely.

So are you not concerned?

No, I mean, like I say,

I think it's...

John O. seems not to be.

Not yet.

As I've said...

Bear with me.

How hard would it be to just...

Does the solution to this already exist?

If we just basically turned on

Clamav for everybody by default,

would that potentially solve the problem

or does it require...

It's not going to stop Windows popping up, is it?

No one has ever been able to...

How does it stop it from...

What I don't know is,

is that sort of thing stopped

by Norton Antivirus, for example?

On Windows?

Are Windows people still vulnerable

to exactly this kind of attack?

Or has this problem been solved on Windows?

And if so,

does the software that solved it on Windows

solve it on Linux as well?

Good question,

which I don't know the answer to.

Right, okay.

I think the key thing in my mind

is that with anything,

you assess the level of threat

at any one time.

And I think that when you start thinking

that there is going to be...

that there is going to be a risk,

you definitely want to get in there

and have a solution.

And it strikes me that...

It's a black swan, isn't it?

It's beyond the question.

I just think that, to me,

it would be like...

the analogy would be...

In some ways,

the analogy is like the terrorism thing.

Like, the risk of terrorism

after 2000...

you know, 2001

was seen to be much higher,

particularly in the US.

And therefore,

it kicked in a ton of extra...

of extra processes

and stuff like that.

Some people think

that it's been a bit heavyweight.

And I'm not saying

that we shouldn't care about the problem.

I'm just saying that...

A bit heavyweight.

Carry on.

Well, it depends

which bit you're talking about.

Like, walking through a scanner

at an airport

is one thing.

Getting a machine...

Making a machine scan you naked

is a different thing.

You know,

taking little bottles

of stuff on the plane.

We're not going to have a fight

about the anti-terrorism.

Bring us back

onto the point a bit.

My point is that

I don't think that

just because there is the possibility

that someone can be owned

with a virus,

that that means that we have to

build all of this stuff.

I think we look at the level of threat

and then we react.

And today,

I don't believe,

given the fact that

I don't know anyone,

speaking personally,

I don't know anybody

who is...

ever had this happen to them.

So you're drawing the distinction...

12 months ago,

it never happened on a Mac.

You're drawing the distinction

between a threat

and a potential threat.

Hang on a minute.

Which is a perfectly

different distinction to draw.

Do you think that,

given that now

some people have suffered

this problem on a Mac,

should Apple have done

something preemptively

or were they...

What do you want them

to do preemptively?

This is what I'm...

I'm not sure.

Okay, security is a good thing,

yes.

Not having security flaws.

But you can't write

an anti-virus scanner

that scans for a virus

that doesn't exist.

Some of the stuff...

First of all,

that's exactly what

anti-virus people do.

They use heuristics

to try and detect

what's going on.

It's not just

all signature-based.

Because there are no...

Because there are no

Linux viruses,

how do you write

the heuristics to...

But the second point is

there are things

other than anti-virus

you could do.

For instance,

you could sandbox

every program.

Right, okay.

So even if it gets

infected by a virus,

that virus can't do anything

because it can't read

and write any of your files,

it can't connect to the network

without permission.

If only there was

some kind of

security-enhanced Linux

that we could run.

Well, exactly.

There's a bunch of research

and work going into

doing that.

I know Fedora and Red Hat

have done quite a lot of work

on things like

SELinux.

There's AppArmor.

There are people working

on individually

sandboxing applications.

Well, yeah, exactly.

You know, although

most of their work

is not available to us.

It's open source.

No, no, no.

The bit they've decided

to open source

is available to us.

I'm quite sure

there's a bunch of

other internal NSA work

about hardening programs

which is not on

fucking SourceForge

or GitHub

or wherever it is, right?

But, yeah,

so there is a bunch of work

going into this.

A lot of the work

is quite academic

at the moment.

I mean, the only thing

I ever hear about

SELinux from desktop users

rather than server users

is how to turn it off

like Pulse Audio

used to be.

I actually think

there's also risks

that are not virus-based

that we face in Linux

that we haven't solved.

So a good example is

one of the problems

that we face in the Ubuntu forums

is, you know,

someone will go and ask

a question about something

or somebody will ask

if a certain piece

of software is available

for the latest version

of Ubuntu

and then somebody

will attach a dev

that they built

to a forums post

and some people

have installed

these devs

and they've hosed

their systems.

At which point,

epic fail.

That's not a virus

but that includes

some of the risks.

It's not...

That kind of Trojan attack

is actually...

That's interesting.

Is it malware?

If I say to you,

go to your machine

and type

sudo rm-rf slash,

is that malware?

Yes.

But by a pretty

stretched definition

of the term.

I'm not installing it,

am I?

So it's not anything weird.

If you give somebody

a dev and say

install that

and it'll do something nice

and it does something...

I'll give you a script

and that's it.

I'll give you a script

which does that.

Is it malware?

I mean,

almost the definition

of malware is stuff

that does something

secretive, right?

It does something malicious.

That's what malware is.

If you say to aid,

type in rm-rf,

you know it's going

to fuck his system.

That's malicious.

That's why it's called

malware,

not secretware.

But somebody making

a dev because they think

it will genuinely

solve somebody's problem

and then they don't realise

because they're maybe

not as technically

proficient at packaging

and it hoses their system.

Because your problem

is not people posting

devs to the forums

which deliberately

screw up people's systems.

It's people who

built a dev incorrectly

which uninstalls

your graphics driver

by accident.

And then that gets

back to the sandbox

and I think we're going

to start seeing more of that

that we need to solve

that will be the precursor

to the virus thing.

Because we've been seeing

this with installing

applications.

We've got this thing

in Ubuntu called Extras

where you can install

applications outside

the repository.

I think I've read

all about them.

Nice.

And,

you know,

one of the things

that we have is

we don't have a sandboxed

environment so we have

a process which is

a bit more heavyweight

to make sure that

these things are

properly checked.

It's not like Android

where everything is

much more sandboxed.

I think we'll have to

face the same thing

with Linux.

Yeah, I mean that's

the difference between

say iOS and Android

is the iOS stuff

is all checked by hand

to make sure that

an application doesn't

do anything malicious.

Android gets around

the fact that they

don't have an army

of people to check this

or they don't want that

by demanding that

your application

individually requires

all the permissions

it wants.

So in theory,

at least,

a user can look at that

and say,

I don't want it to

send emails or make

phone calls.

Is that then the problem

when you talk about

something we can do

beforehand?

Is that basically

because Linux users

in general do go onto

the internet and they

download stuff because,

you know,

we're taught to do that.

That's how you get

any software is you do

yum install or

whatever the dev

equivalent is.

We're just so used to

downloading stuff on

the internet and not

really worrying about it.

Maybe we should

therefore be training

people to actually be

a little bit more

cautious about what

they, you know,

only download something

that's signed or,

only download something

that you trust.

Well, I'd say that

rather than downloading

random devs off a

forum.

Well, I'd say that we

should be doing that

with, you know,

you download it from

the Red Hat Archive

or the Ubuntu Archive

or the Debian Archive.

Stuff that appears

in Ubuntu Software

Center is trust.

I don't know about

you guys, but for me,

installing a dev

outside of the archive

feels weird.

Yeah, I don't like

doing it.

I very, very much

dislike installing.

But that's us, you

know, we wouldn't do

that.

I do like doing it,

but I do actually do it.

That's a good point.

And that's where I think

we'll see the

first wave of

malicious software is

when people start

making these devs.

Like, the Ubuntu

forums is not much

of a risk because

it's still people like

us.

Yeah.

And there are

Android viruses.

For example, and

there are no iOS

viruses, but that's

because everything is

individually checked

by people.

There are Android

viruses.

So it means that you

have to say, you have

to grant them

permission, but

you might be an

exception here, but

as a fairly technical

group of people, how

often do you read

through the list of

stuff a program wants

and then say, no, I'm

not going to allow it

just on the calendar?

I do, and I always

wish that you could

untick those things so

you can say, well, I

want the program, but

I don't want it to

make phone calls.

I don't want it to be

able to make phone

calls, yeah.

You see, my problem

with doing that is

that every game you'd

install only needs to

access the internet, so

the ads work, which

means you just untick

that, and then the

game manufacturers

don't make any money,

and then they stop

making games.

Yeah, the problem

with the Android

thing is it's like a

click-through EULA,

or an installer.

You just keep

clicking the button

until it goes away.

It's much smaller.

No, but what I mean

is the user, they're

like, I want Angry

Birds to work.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

If Angry Birds needs

this stuff, then it

can have this stuff

fine, no problem.

Do you remember the

Lug Radio app that

you wrote?

When I installed it

on my phone, it

says, I need

everything, I need

to do everything

on your phone, I

need to be able to

read this, and I

spoke to you, and

I'm like, why does

that application need

to do all these

things, and your

answer was?

That I hadn't

worked out how to

turn them off.

That it doesn't, and

you hadn't worked

out how to turn

them off.

But you'll notice I

wasn't distributing it

to the public, I was

just reading it to you

to test it.

The embodiment of

Lug Radio in the

app itself.

One of the important

pieces of feedback I

got is that I had to

learn how to turn

all that crap off,

which you were quite

right, and that was

useful feedback.

I do remember

when he swore at

the person to be

a dick, by the

way.

I do remember

Dave, you were

kicking for that as

well, so he obviously

managed to get a copy

of it.

No, but because,

I went, yeah, well

here's the app,

whatever, I've got

enough time to work

on it.

So what do we

think, I mean?

Don't download

anything.

It's coming from

Mac, that's what

we're saying.

All viruses come

from me, don't

worry about it.

So let's spin around

and see what we

think.

I think that we

need to keep an

eye on the problem

and at some point

before it becomes

too big of a

problem, we're

going to probably

need to build

something into

Linux distributions.

What do you

think?

So you want to

be reactive?

Yes.

It looks like he

wants to be proactive.

I would like to be

more proactive than

we are, probably not

as proactive as you

think we ought to be,

but at the moment, a

lot of the research

and work that's going

into sandboxing

applications, protecting

ourselves against

this stuff, is very

very theoretical and

academic.

I would like somebody

to step up and do

this properly, whether

that's Red Hat or

Canonical or Novell

or a committed group

of people building an

open source thing and

then working with the

distributions to make

it happen or whatever.

Do you guys ship

SELinux or

Apple?

Apple.

I'm still Apple.

I believe.

Do you actually use

SELinux, Aid?

Oh yeah, hell yeah.

Yeah, me too.

Right, okay, Aid,

what do you think?

Yeah, I think we

should.

Be proactive, definitely.

Probably the most

proactive out of all of

us, okay?

I think there's almost

not, there's not much

you can do proactively

in technical terms.

SELinux is a similar

kind of a start, but

it's all in the

education of people

saying don't run

stupid, you know,

don't run stuff from

down over to the

internet, don't run

our M minus I, you

know.

Well, I think

educating people is

going to fail miserably.

Yes, I agree with

that.

I have more faith in

humanity than you.

It's not humanity so

much as giving the

fact that he's

just drunk four

cartons of devil's

shit.

I'm not surprised

you've got more

faith in him.

It's not faith, it's

that people don't want

to learn because they're

not interested.

Why the fuck should

they have to learn

about computers?

They want to type a

letter.

Why do they have to

learn about what

SELinux is?

This stuff is going

to have to be built

into the operating

system.

At this point, I'm

not particularly

concerned.

I see no immediate

threat, but I guess

in the next five to

ten years we're going

to see it growing.

Five to ten?

Yeah.

You don't see us

taking on new users

that quickly then?

No, I don't think

it's going to happen

quickly.

It's the end of the

desktop.

I don't think it's

going to happen in

two years' time, or

even three.

The problem is...

Maybe four.

Have you thought

about joining the

Chronicle Marketing

Department?

It sounds like

they're missing an

important voice.

I don't think it's

going to happen,

dude.

It's all fucked.

It's just going to

carry on growing.

I don't think it's

just going to go

bang and there we

are.

Anyway, back at the

point.

That's exactly what

happened on the Mac.

One minute there was

nothing.

Just a minute.

Everyone was

being...

The problem is you've

got to know how to

solve the problem in

the first place, and

Windows people never

really figured it out.

They know how to

minimise the risk, but

there's no silver

bullet.

SE Linux could do

the job, but it's

really fucking hard.

It isn't.

To you.

You did a fucking

course in it.

You're a certified

Red Hat trainer.

If you're not the

normal use case,

it's not that hard.

How hard is

SPSS?

It's considerably

easier for someone

doing a PhD than

the rest of us.

And there it is.

So, I mean, first

of all, you've got to

work out how you're

going to solve the

problem in the first

place, because Windows

people haven't figured

it out.

I remember laughing

at the way they

took that.

It's not up to people

to work it out.

It's up to the

distro producer to

write the right policy

so they don't have to

care.

That's exactly the

point I was trying to

make, which is you

can't leave it to the

people because it's

too hard for average

people.

But doesn't the

distro manufacturers

writing the policy

rely on them

inspecting every

application?

Yeah, I mean, that

is the problem.

So, are you proposing

to do what iOS have

done?

Have someone at

Red Hat or whatever

approve every

application?

You can have a

default.

Isn't the default

going to be lock

everything down so

applications don't

work?

You can't write any

data to anywhere.

You can't connect to

the network.

So, how will you

solve that problem

then?

When I install my

application which

wants to connect to

the network, am I

going to have to

tick a thing like on

Android?

Do we think the

Android approach is a

good approach?

I like the Android

approach.

To be fair, Red

Hat and Debian and

Ubuntu already do that

manual human check-in

process.

That's what the

archive is.

Everything that goes

into there is checked

by core developers.

And that's the reason

why I think that we

haven't had as much

of a problem.

Part of it is the

fact that we're too

small.

But bear in mind that

people post devs on

the forums because

getting them into the

archives is a pain in

the arse.

So, it's a lot easier

to say, look, here's a

dev on the forum or

on my website.

I mean, Skype, don't

put things in the

archive there.

What do we do about

closed source?

I agree that we're

going to face this more

and more, but I think

part of what we need to

do is, and this is what

we're trying to do with

Ubuntu with the extras

thing, is to try and

simplify how you can

get the software in

there.

Like, yeah, right now,

I think it's safe to say

that with both, with

Debian, with Ubuntu,

and with Red Hat,

you have to invest a

lot of your time and

effort to become a

developer to get

involved in any of the

distributions.

And I think that one

thing that we can

probably all learn

from is how we

simplify that process,

but in a way that

doesn't sell the farm.

Like, the Android thing

to me is interesting,

but relying on users

to approve access to

different parts of the

phone doesn't make

sense.

That's what worries

me, that real people,

and I include myself in

this, just go, well, I

want this app, so yeah,

okay, fine.

I mean, there are a

few things.

If I'm installing a

game and it says,

wants to be able to

send premium SMSs,

I'll think, no,

bugger off.

How about I don't

install a game?

I'll install this.

But it's just like, it

wants access to the

internet, and it wants

access to my contacts.

That's quite, you know,

if it's doing something

like that, that's quite

useful, but...

Why does the game need

access to your contacts?

No, I'm not talking

about a game here, but

an application which does

something like that, I

can't stop it then,

taking all my contacts

and emailing it to the

developer, because the

permissions aren't

fine-grained enough.

And it's already

annoying to have to say,

I want this and this

and this and this and

this.

If you make it more

fine-grained, it's even

more annoying and makes

people even more likely

to say, fuck it,

whatever.

So, it's the end of

the show, and in fact

it's the end of the

season, but anyway,

it's time for the

emails.

We don't have any

fucking emails.

We don't have any

emails.

Yeah, why didn't

people email us this

season?

It's been a good

season, though, hasn't

it?

It has been.

What's your favourite

bit?

Fucking without a

doubt, Adam drinking

the filler.

Thank you, thank you

very much, thank you.

No, I actually think

my favourite bit is

my favourite bit of

the whole season has

been the discussion

about antiviruses.

Ah, okay.

That was really

interesting.

That was a very

in-depth discussion.

All the way back in

episode one, I thought

that was really good.

Yeah, yeah.

God, it's such a long

time ago.

It seems a long time

ago, yeah, it does,

doesn't it?

Yeah.

Maybe we should redo

that drinking thing

again, because it's

been a while.

Let's do that more.

I'm sure we could

rustle some up.

We've still got some

of the ingredients.

I bet you could,

couldn't you?

So, we have to say

it's going to be a

while until the next

season.

We're taking a summer

break.

Yeah, it's the summer.

Yeah, until like

2017.

We only have time

to recover and

recuperate from the

hard season.

Especially Tony and

Laura, they need a lot

of time to recuperate.

You should say thank

you very much to

Tony and Laura for

doing all the actual

work to make this

possible.

We should be clear,

we're not starting

again, right?

Yes.

No, we're not.

Well, maybe.

We're not starting

again.

You say that.

We're not starting

again.

We're not.

We're not doing it?

We're not.

I'm hearing yes.

We went through this

with,

bloody lug radio

live, but it took a

year to convince

everybody that we

weren't doing it

again, but we're not

doing it again.

So, you know, thanks

again to Tony and

Laura for, you know,

we're in a very small

hotel room in central

Birmingham and we just

said we want to do a

show and they came up.

Well, that's not

straight true.

We said we want to go

drinking.

Do you want to come

with us?

And then we said,

oh, why are you

coming anyway?

Bring a shitload of

mics and stuff.

Yeah, and they set

everything up and,

you know, we're getting

them a hotel room and

that's all they wanted,

right?

Oh, will you stop?

The look,

I've just got from

Tony suggests that he's

looking for something

more specifically from

aid than he's actually

going to get.

And we should also

plug OgCamp, right?

We should, actually,

yes.

Since otherwise this

might not get edited

at all.

What is it, 13th and

14th of August?

I'll be there.

Chris, you'll be there?

I'll be there, yep.

I'll be there.

Adam will be there.

I'll be in San

Francisco, so I won't

be there.

I'll be at home in

America, so I will not

be there.

I would like to have

come, but yes, very

much so.

13th, 14th of

August, in Farnham.

Which is in

Surrey.

OgCamp.org, is it?

OgCamp.org.

And there's still

tickets available, I

believe.

How many tickets are

available?

About 30 at the

moment.

About 30.

30 or so tickets.

And people, are the

tickets free?

Are they a free

ticket?

Yes.

The one and only

time I've been to an

OgCamp, it was

rocking, so everybody

should go.

It's a great event.

I've been to them

all, and they've all

been rocking.

Wow.

Don't let the fact

that Chris is there

dissuade you from

going.

Can we edit that

bit out?

So that's it.

Thank you very much.

It's been, just to be

clear, we're not doing

this again.

It's pretty emotional.

Maybe occasionally.

We happen to be around

for beer, so you might

hear the next episode

again in, when?

2018 or something like

that.

I guess.

Okay.

But for now, it's the

end of the show, it's

the end of the series.

Thank you very much.

Hear me now.

And goodbye.

Goodbye.