Episode 387, "Correlation is not causation"

see you around

podcasting to all the vassaroth this is world of warcast episode 387 i am michael gains

and i am renata hi renata and we have with us today ali from dungeon fables hello hello

and from live laugh lord let's not forget that one yes yes of course of course hello ali is here

for reasons which we'll discuss later but also all right we were talking uh before we started

recording uh without without even talking about everybody knows what we're going to talk about

and and we're just we don't want to it's like it's a horrible discussion but we have to do it

um so uh

it's important it's important uh we all we all i don't even have to like bring it up it's like

it's it's the activision blizzard lawsuit we we all know it's it's been news since what tuesday

so it's five days now yeah i was on vacation enjoying a lovely cabin in the woods when all

of this crap hit the fan so it's like one of those where were you moments you know and and by the way

another thing that we said before we started recording if if we laugh it's

it's not like we're not taking this seriously this is our way of like dealing with it it's it's

you know because if we didn't we'd just be sobbing the entire time there's absolutely nothing funny

about this but we will start this with a trigger warning to say that um at least for some of the

show we will be talking about things that may be difficult for people who have dealt with harassment

sexual abuse etc.

this will get personal and this will get rough so just fair warning this is not going to be the

usual podcast where i talk about how i spent most of the time after my vacation dealing with

ember court which was fun but it seems petty compared to what we need to deal with right now

um people are saying in chat that's been over a week that's right i think it was a thursday i

think it's like a weekend yeah it happened the news broke wednesday and i know this because it

was the day after next tuesday and i think it's like a week and a half after next tuesday and i

think it's like a week and a half after next tuesday and i think it's like a week and a half and i think

my grandpa died oh so that was a really bad week i i was in the middle of playing skyward sword

and and i'm looking over at my because i have tweet deck right so i'm looking over at my monitor

and i'm sitting here struggling with the controls and i see this activision stuff and blizzard stuff

and like all this and i hear i see the words lawsuit i'm like i'm trying to do this i'm like

this looks really important but i can't stop this dungeon and then i finally stopped and i read this

whole thing i went oh this is really bad and it got worse as time went on it really did so at first

like i saw that i think i want to say i was on my lunch break and just i sang in my car just like

killing time look at my phone and i saw the title and just briefly skimmed over i'm like oh my gosh

what did activision do now and then i actually started reading it i'm like nope this is your

blizzard but it's more so blizzard and it's a real thing that's happening in state agency

investigation

and stuff like oh well if this is this is a thing now i'm gonna go back to work

what time did it break because i didn't see it until like late at night

maybe it was late at night i don't know it's all blur yeah and all i did maybe the next day i was

looking at my lunch break at more of the information as it's coming out i don't i don't

know and all i can say is that the blizzard executives and activision executives have not

been helping the situation because they have been coming out with

it was it's such an uneven

stream of crap to be honest it has been it's like not there hasn't been one official statement from

anybody that's currently working at the company that that actually makes me feel like they're

gonna do the right thing well there's no there's no cohesive narrative no you get either these

really harsh basically

we're not good at you know we're basically going to

diss all everyone who thinks that this is a problem to things that come right out of a pr

person's mouth so you get you it it waffles between evil and fake that is my take on this

that's that's not it's not a bad description fake yeah it fake fake in the sense that people

aren't taking it seriously if i understand what you're saying

correctly

right yeah and luce just said the law firm that that was hired for them is known for union busting

and um ian worked for them and it it's yeah they but but then again there is um uh buckeye fitzy

who's a fan of our uh my star trek podcast he said that they're a big law firm anyway so it's

not a big surprise that they're being used but i i don't know i don't know it's not my it's not my

thing

um i don't even know where to start with this whole thing um uh i guess i can say if there's

any positivity that's been coming out of this is is all the stories that are coming out you know um

uh yeah the the problem has always been the retaliation

and and and i also want to say that it's mostly women but there are a couple of

men that have been coming out saying that they were sexually harassed also

um yeah

um but you know for the most part it's been women but uh the the fear of retaliation has been a

problem uh you you you two i feel like i should just let you two talk about this because like

i'm just i'm just gonna see her going well i i don't know well let's start with fran townsend

yeah oh okay yeah can we end with her too makes my blood boil get her out of here please

fran townsend is a piece of work that is the current cco of blizzard and i i find it very

telling how she puts together her twitter profile which i have up here

mm-hmm ex-homeland security and counterterrorism advisor to president bush cbs news senior

national security analyst evp core affairs and corp secretary and cco

activist

division who puts their latest job last and the answer is someone who is trying to intimidate

someone someone with everything that comes before that yeah this is not a person who is our ally

she may be female but she's not an ally of any of the female employees of blizzard no not at all

and she has just come out with some outrageously

awful things and now she's been spending the weekend blocking current blizzard employees who

are calling her out for her misogyny there's no other word for it it's misogynistic stuff that

she's bringing out she is anti-female and she's also the head of what what's the name of the

organization that she's the head of it's some women's women's employee

thing that i can't remember she's got no business doing it in the other words she is not any she's

she's basically just kissing up to whoever she's got to kiss up to in the hierarchy of blizzard

activision um she is not anyone's friend and her actions have done nothing but reinforce this

yeah like what she was saying and what what's so frustrating is that well there's a lot of things

that are frustrating but you know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know

not only was she basically dismissing the claims or saying oh they happened in the past or whatever

saying they didn't happen but she's sitting here saying you know well it's a great place i've never

experienced these things she's worked there four months right so not only has she worked there like

four or five months during work from home and she's a top level executive right now i'm not

saying that all top level executives everywhere obviously have never had any sexual harassment

happen to them or inequality happen to them but i'm not saying that all top level executives

because i'm sure it does but in this case in these names that are being called out i'm sure that in

her few months here no of course she hasn't experienced any of it but the fact that she

can be a woman and sit here and not even remotely attempt to pretend like she's going to support the

victims is sickening um ladvar in chat says i checked her twitter nothing about games mostly

things about how awful middle eastern countries are and how awful middle eastern countries are

and how horrible the current it's all political it's all political and i have no idea why having

been a former chief officer of homeland security qualifies you to be a chief channel officer

for a major gaming company she doesn't obviously does not understand gaming culture

she does not understand anything about this industry she's just

awful when activision blizzard has hired a couple of political people

within this last year and i don't and i don't know business stuff but makes no sense to me

no it makes no sense to me either and it worries me i remember when these these announcements were

made and i just went well this is very suspect because why would they be hiring political people

for a gaming company right um the chief commercial officer it basically what it is it's it's a person

who is um

an executive someone just asked uh loose changes asked what that is it's an executive level role

with the holder being responsible for commercial strategy and development of an organization

yeah this is really a good way to develop an organization no it's not um and and you what

was the first part for developing what commercial develop responsible for commercial strategy

of an organization i don't see anybody who posts stuff about

politics all the time knowing anything about how to promote the game or market marketing like

marketing right how do you how do you worry do you i don't know just i i don't know how this

happened i don't know how this appointment happened i really don't um but she really

needs to go for the health of blizzard she she does and again don't hire political people i don't

understand that yeah

and what this whole thing is is that over a period of a very long time people have been

uh talking about how poorly women have been treated in blizzard and in gaming and how they

are not receiving equal pay they are not receiving equal opportunities they are basically expected to

work while many of the men just go off and play and of course there's always trigger warning alert

the cosby suite

i have heard a lot of stories in the past couple of years from people who

have been to blizzcon in a professional sense this is a work event for them yeah and have had

to deal with this level of personal harassment for being female and that is just so many awful

ways of wrong i don't know of too many women myself included who have not been sexually

harassed at some workplace uh workplace social circles grocery stores it just this is something

that happens everywhere yeah and the fact that it's you know and i think the problem is is that

we've really come to kind of revere blizzard and the people who work there as you know being these

great creative geniuses and such and many of them are and some of them are women by the way

yeah um that

this has seemed to come to as a shock to a large portion of the gaming community and to me it's just

like of course well this but this is the thing this i think this is the heart of the reason why

it bothers us so much is that blizzard was always saying well you know well we're we're always trying

better we're always doing better and then there was there were there are those three plaques in

the front of blizzard hq like all voices matter uh was it play play nice play fair at the end i

can't remember the other one yeah and then there was a there was a there was a there was a there was a

yeah but the point is is that we as fans for the last 17 plus years you know just world of warcraft

but you know like everything else before then we always we meet these people like i've met these

people and so you sort of feel that they would hold themselves to a higher standard just because

of of the closeness to the community nope and and and

And, you know, like Riot, who said, somebody said that Riot is being sued for the same thing.

Yeah, Webley.

Webley.

But the thing is, like, other than Ghostcrawler, I don't know anybody at Riot.

So I played LOL once.

I'm not kidding.

Within a minute or two of playing, I log into this game and people are just, like, verbally harassing me.

I've never played the game.

It was my first game.

People are like, you suck.

You're a piece of shit.

I have a good friend of mine.

Who worked at Riot.

And he lasted, I think, just a few months before he left.

Because he was like, you know, I have a wife.

I have daughters.

I can't stand this.

That's sad.

And very telling.

He's one of the good ones.

I am not one of those people that say, all men are bad.

All men are evil.

I married one who isn't.

But there is a bro culture.

That is very prevalent in gaming.

And, you know, as I said, I'd heard the BlizzCon stories.

I hadn't heard about the Cosby suite.

I'm a little disappointed about some of the people who showed up as being part and parcel with the Cosby suite.

I mean, like, Ghostcrawler came out with this wonderful statement until it became obvious that he was, at least,

if he wasn't actively...

If he wasn't actively in on it, he was at least...

Aware.

Aware and not stopping it.

And then doing damage control on Twitter for a few days.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's rough.

It's hard to see that.

And, you know, I'll just...

I'll share my own experience with having been sexually harassed at work.

I told this on Twitter.

When I had my first job out of grad school,

I was at a...

Like, I'd been working there, like, three weeks.

And I had...

There was a faculty mixer at school.

And I'm just standing there, and all of a sudden, this guy grabs me from behind.

Now, at that point, I had a brown belt in taekwondo.

So, I immediately did this move where I slammed my elbows up to get out of the grab,

turned around.

Hit into a defensive stance, and I am facing the dean of my college.

With this very surprised look on his face.

And what's really screwed up about this is my first thought was not,

this guy just tried to grab and kiss me.

It was, oh, my God, I'm going to get fired.

And that's not how it should be.

But, unfortunately, that's how it is.

Well, I didn't get fired.

Oh, good.

Um...

I actually lasted longer than he did because I didn't know at the time

that he was actually in the process of being put through, quote-unquote,

early retirement because he was well-known for this behavior

and there had been multiple complaints about him.

Otherwise, I might well have been fired.

But, actually, what I heard from the other women at work was,

I wish you'd decked him because I had definitely come around with a hammer fist up,

planning to whack him, and then I realized that I was standing in front of someone

who was important at the college, even though I'd never...

And he was just like, oh, I guess I surprised you.

And I said, well, I guess you did, and kind of did the stand down.

But the fact that my first thought, I had been, you know, at this point,

this was like 1994, I had been so conditioned by the world that I'd grown up in

that my...

As I said, my reaction was, I'm going to get fired.

But, unfortunately, that's the reality that we, as women, have to deal with.

Thankfully, I've worked for myself for 2002.

I'm not going to fire myself.

But, and I have to say this right off the bat,

Wowhead has been fantastic in this regard.

It has been...

I am very proud of the coverage that they have done through this

because they have pulled no punches.

They have been reporting everything.

And that is a risk.

That's a big risk.

When you say risk, I thought that, well, like, what...

I don't want to get too inside baseball with this whole thing.

You know, you keep stuff to yourself that you feel that you have to.

But I figured that if, like, Wowhead doesn't have, like, advanced information or something,

then what kind of a risk is it?

Because you guys can just do whatever you want.

Right.

But, I mean, they do things like, you know, and I've seen this with several of my guides,

a lot of their customer service, frankly, is linking to Wowhead guides.

Oh, from the Blizzard team.

You know, they could send that traffic somewhere else.

This is not a free choice that they make.

And I'm just guessing here because, you know, I just...

Just from what I know personally about the interworkings of things,

I mean, there's no monetary thing between Blizzard and Wowhead.

They're completely...

They're completely different organizations.

Thank God.

But, you know, there is a risk.

There's a risk of losing traffic.

There's a risk of losing that relationship.

And so I give them massive props for not holding anything back as they've been covering this.

Now, I also agree with their decision not to...

I think everyone has noticed that almost every article on Wowhead about this has had comments.

It's closed.

Yeah.

And the answer is because when they tried it first, all that happened was it was just filled with trolls.

Yeah.

And, you know, we just shut everything down.

And that was definitely the right decision to make.

Didn't Parkulia say that there was one that was accidentally left open?

Yeah, I caught that one, actually.

It was on vacation.

It was open for like 10 minutes.

Yeah.

And I looked at it and I was like, guy, I wrote...

We have private Discord channels.

We have private Discord channels just for the writers.

And I wrote, guys, this is still open and there's comments going in and it's not good.

And they closed it down very quickly.

And then people complained about their comments being removed.

They weren't removed.

The comments were locked.

And that removes any current comments.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

I'm not sure I was the one that necessarily, you know, but I was one of the people who posted saying, guys, we got a problem.

Yeah.

Which was kind of funny because where I was, I had...

I had very intermittent Wi-Fi and cell service.

So, the fact that I even caught it was kind of...

So, I'm sitting there in this beautiful cabin down in the Finger Lakes in the wine country.

Oh, I've been there.

Sitting on my phone following all this crap.

Yeah, I've been there.

So, yeah.

I mean, so as I said, I really think that it was a business risk.

Demeter Knoth, who we love, by the way, says in chat,

So many people outside Blizz itself are reliant on them for income and that makes it even worse.

I'm furious how careless they have been with people's livelihoods inside and outside of the company.

And that's not me.

I don't make money from content.

All right.

So, let's go into that for a second.

Allie and I were talking a few days ago.

And I was saying it's like...

I guess what happens is that when you do something inside your company,

and you think that everything is all fine,

you don't think of the long-term domino effect of all this.

So, I said, what about podcasters?

What about...

And I just want to be clear about this.

It's not to diminish the people that were harmed by this personally.

But there are other people that are going to be affected by this in other ways.

And so, there's Wowhead.

Right?

It's called Wowhead.

Yeah.

It's called Wowhead.

You've got podcasters who are closing up shop.

You've got streamers who are closing up shop.

And I've always said...

I said this a long time ago.

I said, don't hit your wagon to one thing.

Especially not something that you don't have control over.

Rum Posca.

It's just like waving a chai.

As a matter of fact, one of the things that happened to me...

Now, this has nothing to do with sexual harassment.

But years ago, when I was doing Warcast,

it was like all people knew me for was just this one thing.

I was like, I've got to do something else.

And that's why I started doing the Trek show.

But the point being is that there are so many people that are dependent on this game.

And then if this comes out in such a way where it harms the game as a whole

and the company as a whole,

now all these people that hitched a wagon to one thing,

and that one thing...

Either gets diminished or goes away.

Well, then what?

So I feel for those people.

Everybody.

There are so many people.

There are so many facets to this whole thing.

The biggest, of course, is the sexual harassment.

But the smaller facets of people's livelihoods are there.

I would almost put Wowhead as like...

You got the people that were involved in the company directly.

And then Wowhead...

I think we'd just be directly underneath that from a financial point of view.

Speaking as someone who is a very prolific writer for Wowhead,

I'm a contract writer.

I'm not a staff person.

I got to say, one of the things that the pandemic did for me

was my business has suffered.

My side business.

And mostly because of...

I'm not going to get into all the whys and wherefores,

but I'm supporting...

I'm a business-to-business site.

And a lot of the people went out of business.

So I'm not getting as much money from that.

Wowhead saved my bacon during the pandemic.

And, I mean, it literally doubled my income.

And it allowed me to have a...

It's been a huge, huge thing.

For me, financially.

So, you know, when this all happens...

In the same way, why are you not thinking about...

This goes beyond just Blizzard.

This has a ripple effect to the whole community.

And, again, the streamers, the podcasters, the writers,

the people who have these websites

that they have poured their hearts and their souls into.

I'm not even...

And let's just take money out of the thing.

I mean, most podcasters and streamers

don't make a lot of money.

No.

Or any.

No, we don't.

Or we're spending money to devote ourselves to this game.

And then you get in this position where you're going,

I'm serving the devil.

That's the thing, right?

Because for so many people, this game means so much.

Not even talking earning a living.

But I know, for me, it was there during my...

During my darkest days.

And it was that healthy distraction

that is probably the reason why I am honestly still here.

It is what was the huge icebreaker for my husband and I

on our first date.

Being two socially awkward people

who didn't really know how to handle dating.

And we started talking about Warcraft.

And now we're married.

You know, for seven years now.

And it's just, for some, it is that healthy escape.

It's where they have made their best friends.

Yeah.

Who become lifelong friends.

It's such a big thing.

And I think it's part of the reason why this,

among so many other things,

the reason why it's hurt so much.

Right.

Now, let's take that facet of it also.

All right.

BlizzCon.

Right?

For those of us that have been friends for, you know,

15 plus years or even five years, you know, something.

BlizzCon was the place, the time that we used to get together

and see each other.

Now, what are we going to do?

If some people are leaving,

you know, what happens with BlizzCon?

Sure.

You make different friends and such, but it's, how do I put this?

I'll give you, I'll give you a real world anecdote, right?

People have, I've been talking about this, this slides project

that I've been working on right now.

I'm scanning my slides.

So what does this have to do with everything?

There, there was a, there was a family that my, my family spent a lot of time with.

And we were a good friend and their kids were the same age, right?

There's, there's a picture of me with somebody who we're like seven months old.

Right.

And we kind of grew up together.

Then both our parents got divorced and we haven't seen each other since 79 something.

We just got back in touch.

But the, but the point is, is that something was done outside of our control, right?

This is, this is done outside of a control.

It's like, like, I don't want it to be another 40 years before, you know,

I see Ren again or before I see Allie again or anything or anything else.

But like, if there's no BlizzCon.

Then what?

It's like, what are we, what are we going to do?

We're going to have like some sort of like, like annual trip to, you know, Disney or something like in November.

That could be a lot of fun.

No, it could be.

But, but the thing is, is like, how is that going to get organized?

It's, it's, you know, it just have to be, you know, like a small group of people.

But my, my, my point being is that again, Ren, you talked about the ripple effect.

Now you've got a social ripple effect on this whole thing.

It's like.

I've heard, I've heard from so many people on Twitter, particularly.

Talking about how, wow, is a safe space for them.

Yeah.

And they feel like it's not nearly as safe as it used to be.

The community has always had problems.

But one of the things that I've sort of made an art form of over the year is creating my own safe communities.

I basically put myself into a bubble.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Find your bubble, find your people.

And that safe space, if it's not in wow anymore, that's okay.

I mean, I, I don't have any problem deciding to leave the game or deciding to leave.

No, anybody who wants to say, you know, people saying that they need to leave the game for a while or they want to leave permanently.

That's fine.

If that's what you need to do for yourself, there's nothing that says you have to stay.

Um, I mean.

Making different choices for a variety of different.

Am I glitching?

You glitched for a second.

That's fine.

Oh, sorry.

Um, but.

You know, people need to do what they need to do to make themselves feel safe.

Um, hopefully.

Blizzard isn't going to Blizzard Activision isn't going to continue sending these mixed messages.

And making people feel incredibly unsafe.

Well, okay, I, I, two things that I want to say first is that I, I don't think it's fair.

And I know fair is like a childish word to some people.

I get that, but it's not fair that I'm not going to be able to say to you too.

Oh, BlizzCon is like now it's like now we're pulled apart.

You know, that's not to say that I can't get on a plane and go to Colorado, right.

You know, or something, or we can, we can organize something that that's not to say that that can't have, of course it can happen.

But that, that, that feeling of, you know, watching the Murlocs or, you know, in, in front of the, the convention hall and all that, like that could be gone now for all we know, but that leads into the second thing that I wanted to say, which is in order for BlizzCon to happen for people to want to go to Blizzard, for people to want to go to BlizzCon for people to want to cheer for the people on stage.

What has to happen?

Like, I want to go to the next BlizzCon.

But I.

I can't.

Like that.

No.

So what.

So that, that's the bottom line.

Like what, what I'll just ask you to, what would make you happy right now?

I think so.

My, my first thing, like, I'll just say one thing and then I'll let you go.

Um, cause like the only time, like I've, I've experienced sexual assault.

I was lucky that I was online, but as a guild leader and demanding nudes and other things I won't get into.

But I, when I went and talked to other guildies about.

They believed me and they defended me and that was a really big deal for me and that was pales compared to what's going on at Activision Blizzard because it's not my livelihood, it's not where I work, it's online and I could just log off and leave.

Um, at this, like for anything to remotely begin, they need to actually start actually listening to the victims and showing that they.

They actually care and then they're actually going to do something about it to make it a safe environment to actually follow up on these PR words that they're putting out there and actually take action.

Right.

Well, you know, of course we know that there was this Blizzard walkout and there was mass, there was a mass event going on that was created by other players to log out at the time.

Um,

that do a mass logout, which I, I felt bad I couldn't participate in because, you know, previously mentioned cabin with crappy wifi.

I didn't have my computer with me, so I didn't log on, but I can't really have credit for that.

So what I did is I just tweeted the, you know, the active active blizz walkout and there's a couple other hashtags, um, a better ABK and, and abuse in gaming, all of which, um.

I totally agree with, but they have to address, they only address, you know, and they said, okay, well, we were going to do the, all of these particular steps.

They didn't even address some of the things that the, the, the walkout vault, a walkout, uh, employees address things like an end to, um, mandatory arbitration.

Yeah.

Can somebody explain that to me?

Cause I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what that means.

Forced arbitration.

Well, I'm, I'm not a lawyer either, but forced arbitration basically means that you can't sue the company.

Oh, okay.

I have, you have to go through any complaints that you have, have to go through a, an arbitration with a company, which has been hired by the company that hired you.

So blizzard hires an arbitration firm, which handles any internal complaints.

Okay.

You can see where there's obviously no real trust that this is going to be handled in any sort of a fair way that is going to benefit the employee, but rather is going to benefit the employer.

It's actually one of the same problems that they have with, with HRs.

I mean, one of the, one of the things I thought was very telling was there were female employees that said, yeah, first day I got there, a bunch of, you know, other women came up to me and said, hi, welcome to blizzard.

Don't trust HR.

Human resources is generally not set up primarily to protect the employees.

It is to protect the company from being sued.

And that's just, that's just a fact.

There are a lot of, you know, there, there's, there's better ones and there's worse ones, but that is their primary goal is to prevent the company from being sued.

That once you go ahead.

Sorry.

And so once you realize that a lot.

Of HR behavior makes a great deal more sense.

I had a situation happen once where somebody, my boss gave me a bad review in retaliation for being on vacation.

I kid you not.

And HR did nothing.

So, yeah, I can see that you'd be right about that.

Well, that's right.

That's the, one of the things that's been really frustrating.

Well, one of the many things is.

When you read, when you make the mistake of reading some of the comments, you do still get those people that are saying they're like, why didn't they come forward sooner?

Why didn't they go to HR?

No, I know.

And then you hear all these stories of why.

And when all the times that, you know, these victims who don't do go to HR.

Gets brushed under the rug.

They get fired.

They get passed up.

They get for the retaliation and backlash and further bullied and harassed and everything.

And so, yeah, of course.

Why didn't they go sooner?

Because that's so helpful.

Yeah.

But the people that are saying that are either, either they know the answer and they're trolling or they're just completely ignorant.

So.

What can you say to that?

I've seen people on the Blizzard forum say, well, it's not that bad.

Or, or just like, just stop.

And the funny thing is that those comments, those kinds of comments get buried really fast.

So.

Yeah.

And the thing is.

That we've all seen.

One of the other ones that I, that I was really not shocked or surprised by, but just like, oh my God.

Was the, the whole thing about, well, we would have put you on this particular team, but this guy doesn't like working with strong women.

That's his problem.

Yeah.

It is his problem.

Yeah.

And what kind of a statement is that anyway?

Right.

What is that?

It's just ridiculous.

But so, you know, what we as players need to do is decide what we're going to do about this.

You know, I, I am choosing to stay.

I am choosing to continue to create content.

I'm choosing to create, continue working for Wowhead, not just because it, you know, it's, it's really, it's a good job.

And.

I like working for the, oh, well, actually it's, it's, it is a good job.

I like working for the people.

I am enjoying what I'm doing.

Um, but I am also trying to speak out on Twitter.

I am trying to, you know, bring what little elevation that I can to hashtags to, you know, put a blue, the blue heart is a sign of support.

It doesn't do much.

You can also donate.

There's a whole bunch of.

They've raised thousands of dollars for some really great charities.

Um, just continue to put the pressure on to Activision Blizzard for God's sake.

Improve.

But there, I don't think they're going to.

I think that's the problem.

That's the biggest problem that I have with this whole thing is that I, they've, how many, there is, there is the cut.

Cottonick, right?

That's how you pronounce the name.

Cottonick's statement.

Jay's, uh, statement.

And then, um.

What, uh, what's her name statement?

Um.

Fran.

We don't speak of her.

She who shall not be named.

Um, uh, maybe that should be the title.

Um, there was, I think there was a fourth one, but the, but the point is, is that they're all very tone deaf and I'm waiting for the one I, this is the statement I'm waiting for.

I'm waiting for the statement that says we are going to take a look at every, at every single report.

Like, forget about.

What, what law firm they hired is like, we're going to look at every single report and we're going to do everything that we have to, to make sure that everything is safe.

We're going to, we're going to not retaliate against people that post on Twitter.

We're going to not retaliate against people that were in the walkout.

We, uh, we're going, you know what, you know what actually would be good.

I don't know how realistic this is, but it would be nice to put out like some sort of quarterly report or something to the fans.

Like forget about the people in, in, you know, the, the ivory tower.

or anything you know forget about the stockholders what about the people that are paying

the the company where they get their money from tell us this is how we're doing this is what we're

doing maybe that'll help i don't know i will say don't think this isn't happening in other games

oh i'm sure it is one of the things that i think is causing part of this problem is the perception

and i've heard i've heard so many people who work at these these sorts of places we were getting

this during the you know during the the big web tech boom during 1999 through like 2002

we don't care how we treat you because if you quit i have 200 applications for your job

and i can hire them cheaper yeah and as long as that attitude persists we're never going to get

anywhere

yeah on things like fair treatment of women fair treatment of people in the lgbtqia community fair

treatment for people who are uh neurodivergent people who have you know people of color we're

never going to get that kind of thing because it's always going to be people who are going to

support our vision of the culture and right now the culture sucks yeah yeah as long as they always

have this attitude of

you know

you're easy to replace and i just want to have something to say about that in a in a different

job i actually got pushed out i found out years later that a bunch of us got pushed out it wasn't

just me but a bunch of us were pushed out for bullshit reasons and i found out as to hire

cheaper people oh yeah yep i mean that's one of the things that um a lot of people our age

um and i'm talking about the you know 45 plus i don't know how old you are and i'm talking about

our alley but i'm definitely 45 plus i just turned you turn those numbers around and you keep what i

what i have my last birthday um is ageism and ageism is also real where people who are older

because people they say well you're more expensive well we that's because we're no more

you know so yeah 18 catarange says this is not new 18 years old was told first day i would have to

perform better because i was female to achieve credibility yeah i mean that's how it is and

that's how it feels in every circle yeah unfortunately i don't understand i i ali and

i were having this conversation a week ago i think ali this is the conversation that we're

we're having when i said that i don't understand why people behave this way right how are they

brought up you know i don't know

i don't i don't know it's like it's one thing to say that there's a quote-unquote bro culture but

then it's another thing to say well how come there aren't more people saying don't do that

than there are people that says do because they get harassed for doing it they're being told oh

you're a white knight you're you know you're a wimp oh you're you know forgive the language

you're pussy whipped um there's they get pressure for not going along with it men get harassed too

yeah and conform to something that's utter crap

and the fact that it's 2021 and the fact that it's just for some stupid reason it's still

seems like it's too much to expect respect and equality yeah it's ridiculous i just it's

disgusting and tiring and uh sad amongst many other words uh-huh i would like to say i forgot

to mention this earlier um apple did this because they had some scrutiny about you know people that

they had at higher levels and they fixed it they fixed it it can be done it can be done but they

have to they have to freaking do it and and they have to stop putting out these these shitty

statements that make us feel like like my okay well i'll get i'll transition to another thing

here but um i need to see more women out there

top level and not she who shall not be named i'm talking about people women that are actually

going to do the right thing right not we're not asking for preferential treatments we're asking

to be taken on our merits not on whether we have boobs to be honest you know yeah i i hate to be

that crass but really that's that's what it's about yeah yeah um

now i forgot what i was going to transition into um there was a statement i was i was going to make

uh about apple i don't remember i i'll think of it carry on i forget this is what happens when you

when you i i think i've kind of said my piece on this um in the sense of

the problem is is that it's obvious that a lot of big changes are going to have to make and

change is hard i i recognize this

and you know it's not just going to take you know quietly shoving alex afrasiabi out the door

back in june and not making a big deal of it and then belatedly taking out the nine million

different references to him and to his character forer i noticed it's tiguel's ice cream now not

tiguel and forer's ice cream but you know and so it's funny because he had a lot of different

so many quests and npcs fraziabi um for anything with forer that's alex afrasiabi and someone said

well that's not about him because you know you have to have someone nominate you to be

to have an npc or an item say not in the early days no not in the early days

not in the early days a lot of this was put back in in the early days yeah and a lot of this is

from this is from original vanilla wow

these references came in um how freaking narcissistic is that to be honest um i was

listening to um scott talk about this and how it bothers him and and he said like you know there

are things in the game named after me and i and i thought to myself like yeah because we have uh

one npc named after us and there's another npc named after me i'm like uh you know this isn't

something that i take lightly like i'm not going to take it lightly i'm not going to take it lightly

i take this very seriously and and you know you said change change is hard but i think the biggest

problem with the change is that the change this change shouldn't be hard this change should be

just respect everybody why is that so hard for people right and this goes back to my original

statement i mean i mean forget about the the bro culture at companies how do how do people

how do they

grow up doing that i don't know i don't know well the problem is is you get into these sorts

of situations and these sorts of climates this is what's reinforced this is the kind of behavior

that you need to move up in the company i am sure that the cosby suite was the in bros i won't say

in bread bros um but in the in sorry sorry to

that while you were drinking thankfully right before otherwise every water all over

um that that was that's the kind of behavior when that's the behavior that's rewarded

that's the behavior that's reinforced yeah so so i don't know i i i i want to oh let me let me just

say what i'm what i'm gonna say is that um you know people are saying oh they're gonna quit

playing blizzard games and such scott

said i don't i don't know the the full context of this but he said that he's he doesn't want to

give him another dime if i remember correctly i don't want to put words in his mouth but i think

he said something like that i'll give an example um so ali and i play overwatch on fridays and

you know there's the symmetric skin that i want to get the um mermaid one and i'm like oh this

would be really good to give us 3 000 credits and i'm like ah you know i i paid money for uh a skin

a little while

back uh the um somber skin and now i'm at the point where like i don't know if i want to give

blizzard more money you know it's it's like i but then oh this is the this is the point that i forgot

about earlier the uh support people that are already there argument i shouldn't even be an

argument but people have been saying like well whether you support blizzard or you don't you

uh you know you stay or you quit um

you shouldn't be harassed one way or the other right and i think that's absolutely true um so

here this is what i'm gonna say it's like i i am gonna keep my subscription all right so there

there's that yeah um it's just there there are things we're going to talk about in a little bit

but yeah that that's where i am at this point yeah i went i went back and forth on like what

i was going to do especially you know when news first came out and i was like oh my god i'm gonna

back and forth on if i wanted to podcast if i want to stream it if i want to even just play

and i think what finally drove me in the direction of continuing to play and podcast

is the employees i teared up when i read that employee letter and the between that and the

walkout like they're not at least in my mind they see it as they're not quitting they're taking a

stand and they're fighting and so in my own small way with my own small voice like i'm

going to join them in that and i'm going to go ahead and continue to play and podcast

not quite re-streamed yet they'll come eventually but right now i'm taking a little break from that

and playing other games for streams but um it it really it was inspiring to see that they they are

fighting this they're trying to stand up for what is right and and i i want to do the same and yeah

like some people say you know well you're you're supporting the bad people when you do that too

the employees themselves who are taking that stand they're asking people to continue to play

to support them and i mean ultimately you're right like you have to do what you feel like

is right at the end of the day and it and if it's playing cool go for it if it's not playing that's

fine like yeah but yeah like it's it's sad to see the number of people harassing each other

for whatever decision they make it's sad to hear about the number of people who are harassing

customer service with their tickets oh that's not right yeah i saw that that's terrible how can you

say how can you stand against harassment by harassing the people who work there there's

still lots of good people at blizzard stop harassing them yeah please and don't harass

the people don't harass streamers don't harass podcasters don't harass us in comment section

on wowhead don't harass us through the guide reporting

we don't deserve it we're not the enemy um i i you know but i i say you know there's people who say

well i just can't play this game anymore that's fine that's fine that's fine if you know self

care is very important if you can't face this that doesn't make you weak that makes you human

we're all human and we all have our breaking points for me you know if i wasn't quite so

into wow because of you know i can't say that working for wowhead isn't a major factor in my

decision because it is but i also believe that you know these were i was you know as i said i

was running through this stuff for the ember court and there are talented funny people who

are writing these great quests and and they deserve to be supported and as i said it unless

you want to just play no games you can't play no games you can't play no games you can't play no

games whatsoever don't think it's not going in other places i mean riot's been been sued for this

being sued for this i think ubisoft i don't remember whether they were sued for it or

they're going to be sued for or what's going on something yeah something hello gideon

my cat decided i needed that he that i needed some attention um but you know i guess my point

is is don't think that you're they don't think that you're going to be sued for it

don't think that you're going to be sued for it don't think that you're going to be sued for it

don't do it because you think you're helping do it because do you make your

decision based on you and what you're comfortable with?

And no one should judge you for that. This is what's right for me.

But if someone else quitting and going and playing something else is right for

them, even, you know, whether it's for three months,

three years or the rest of their life, that's up to them.

Yeah. It is up to them. But as I said earlier, it's,

it's not right that you wake up one day and all of a sudden your entire social

structure just falls apart. Just as it's not right for, you know,

the people that have been dealing with this internally for so long have been

dealing with this for, you know, for so long.

We're living, living in a situation where we,

I sort of see the social stuff and like wowhead is like collateral damage.

But you know, the most important thing are the people that work there that,

that, you know,

they walk into work every day past something that says every,

every,

every voice matters and yet they don't matter.

Right.

That's the biggest problem.

Exactly.

Well,

like Kara and chat is saying now that things are more in the open,

healing can hopefully begin.

And I hope that's a case.

Like I think it's important to,

that these things are being called out that these discussions are being had.

And because there is a literal state agency who has done a two year

investigation and found enough evidence to sue over this,

because you know,

they wouldn't,

they wouldn't sue on a hunch.

Like they,

they have the proof.

Right.

And because of that,

that gives more victims safety,

hopefully to,

to come forward and come forth,

which is why we're getting more and more of these stories.

And it's,

it's hard and it's rough.

And I can't imagine what it's like for them,

but it's good that all of this is coming out.

But that said over the next three months,

six months or so.

And I,

and I say only three to six months,

not a year,

not two years.

I want,

I want to see stories from blizzard employees that say things are getting

better.

God,

I hope so.

That's what I want to say.

I think that's,

I think that's sort of like,

I started to have to like mold it in my brain as we were talking.

Right.

Yeah.

That's what I want to see.

I don't want to see people from blizzard saying,

you know,

somebody did something awful to me today and HR is doing nothing.

I want to see nothing happen.

Nothing bad happened to me today.

And by the way,

I'm working on this and we're putting a lot of work into it and I hope you

support it.

Put simply talk is cheap and you can't talk your way out of a situation you

behaved your way into only behavior over time consistently is going to fix

this.

There is another facet to this whole thing is that years ago,

Ren,

you remember this is that blizzard was notorious about not talking publicly

about certain things.

Yeah.

Now,

I think they have to,

they have to not just,

this is all out in the open.

They cannot put the lid on this anymore.

Yeah.

So,

so there's that.

Anything else anybody wants to say?

Not on this subject for now,

but I'm sure that,

you know,

we'll,

you'll just see how things go over the next few months.

So the next three or four months are going to be critical.

Yeah.

It will.

And I think ultimately I think it's important that we keep having these

conversations that people call the bad stuff out when they see it and that we

continue to listen and stand with the victims.

I,

my only concern about this whole thing,

it's,

it's nice to want things,

but I think that there is a,

and it's not just an Activision blizzard thing.

I think that there is a corporate culture where official statements have to

be official statements have to come out that are,

are intentionally dry.

Cause that's not the right word that I want to see,

but,

but you're not going to,

I don't think you're going to see a corporate statement that says things are

getting better.

And this is why,

because I don't think anybody's going to take them seriously.

Nobody's going to take a press release about things getting better.

Seriously.

We have to hear from the people that things are getting better.

And I guess what I'm trying to say here is,

is that,

that,

that corporate culture where employees are not allowed to say things or

something,

that's got to go away if,

and that will help people trust blizzard more,

I think.

So I think that's all I got.

Anything else?

No,

not at this time in a little bit,

not at this time.

Um,

wow.

So how long have we been,

uh,

doing this?

Uh,

57 minutes.

Um,

so it,

just in general,

has anybody done anybody played anything?

Any,

any news you guys want to talk about?

Well,

as I said,

I've been playing Ember court lately trying,

I got my level two on that and I've been playing that.

I've also been kind of experimenting with how to handle,

um,

alts,

how to balance alts in what has been a very alt unfriendly 9.1 so far.

But,

um,

you know,

I'm,

I'm kind of getting,

I'm getting back into this.

I'm coming off my vacation.

So I'm expecting,

I will have a huge load of work for me when I get back to,

to work on Monday.

Probably.

Yeah.

We'll just have to kind of wait and see.

How about you,

Allie?

Uh,

I was a little behind on the covenant campaign due to podcasting and

dealing with this lawsuit stuff and work and whatnot.

But finally have the last few days and taking time to get caught up with

that,

which I'm,

I'm mostly here for,

I mean,

raids and dungeons are lovely and I like them,

but story and lore is my number one.

And so that has been really nice to kind of see that in person.

Finally,

not just talk about what is being reported on the PTR.

Yeah.

Did you finish,

did you finish the campaigns thus far?

I'm,

I still have to finish the most recent one.

I already know what happens with it,

but I haven't seen the cinematic.

Like I've been actually like actively avoiding that cinematic.

So I can just see it naturally because it's rare when I don't have to

spoil myself.

Oh,

so I know what happens.

I have an idea,

but that'll probably be later today.

Most likely.

Yeah.

I will say that the first chapter,

which I've done on three characters so far is a bit tedious and a bit of

the,

Oh my God,

who thought this,

you know,

who thought this plan was a good idea.

Let's just put it that way.

Even when the first time I was doing that one,

I was like,

you know,

you get like three quarters of the way through it and they're like,

let's take this to tour guest.

And you're like,

this is,

this is a bad idea.

This is like the worst idea.

I'm trying not to spoil too much.

The second and third chapters were much better.

The story is very strong in both of them.

I really enjoyed the last one.

It was long,

but it didn't feel long.

And that's really great when they can take you through something,

which can take a certain amount of time in game,

but it does.

It feels like the time flies.

Right.

Like,

so yesterday,

so with,

me not playing quite as much last weeks with all this stuff going on,

I was doing the,

you know,

last week's chapter last night.

And yeah,

I got sent to Brevin dress for reasons I won't mention here.

And I actually forgot a little bit that we could fly again.

I've done.

So I'm running around.

I'm like,

okay,

I got to go over there.

I got over there.

I'm like,

wait a minute.

And I saw someone go by flying.

Like I can fly.

What am I doing?

Walking around like a bleep.

So that was really nice.

And Brevin dress to go flying.

Of course,

like the first thing I did when I got flying was go fly in Ardenweald

because that is the most amazing Beatles on ever and flying just makes it

even better.

So I didn't forget in Ardenweald,

but for some reason I forgot in Revan dress.

I don't know why.

I forget I can fly and I get lost when I'm flying.

I've had several times where I've flown,

tried to fly off the top of sin fall and I can't figure out where the

flyer is.

And I was going off the wrong side of the building.

I'll get it eventually.

But yeah,

we've,

we've been rating.

I'm really,

really enjoying this raid.

It's a,

it's,

it's fun.

We haven't gotten the last three bosses down yet,

but we've at least seen the third to last boss.

And we've got,

I got them down to like,

this was fate scribe for Carlo.

For those who read,

I don't want the rings on the ground,

spin around.

We got them down to like 10% last week and we didn't even have our main

tank.

So,

or one of our main tanks.

So that I've been enjoying the raid so far.

And you're doing some tour guests and stuff,

but I,

I think the thing I'm probably most excited about is,

is the story.

Yeah.

And now you're all asking to ask me,

what have you been doing?

What have you been doing?

What have you been doing,

Mike?

Besides overwatch watching the Olympics.

I've watched a little of the Olympics.

I've watched the cycling and the cycling,

just the cycling.

I've been watching everything.

I was very disappointed that the U S lost to Argentina today.

And,

um,

uh,

volleyball.

That was,

that was very disappointing.

Um,

I,

I guess my point is,

is that I really haven't been playing much.

Kara says Mike has been cleaning.

Yeah.

I've been cleaning.

Um,

it's not wrong.

Yeah.

So,

so this,

this sort of goes into the,

the last thing that we're going to discuss today is that today is my

last show.

What?

His.

My last show.

Not the last episode of the show.

So no,

you,

you take it away.

And well,

you wanted to explain something.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

So I wanted to,

here's the thing.

Yeah.

This was going to happen anyway.

I want to be very clear about this.

Um,

um,

I have been not really playing anything.

Like I played skyward sword.

Um,

you know,

um,

you know,

and,

and I,

I guess the problem I've had this problem for years.

And,

uh,

the issue has been that I feel that sometimes I have to play the game

because I have to talk about it the following Sunday.

I can't not play the game because I just don't want to.

It's like,

I,

I have to.

And,

uh,

I sort of got on this train for two reasons.

One,

because I was just very,

very unthrilled with,

uh,

Shadowlands.

Uh,

and then the second thing is just,

we're doing kitchen demolition and,

um,

I've been working on this,

you know,

this family project.

And by being away from the game,

you sort of just go,

huh,

I can do something else.

And I,

I,

I guess where I'm,

where I'm coming from is that,

you know,

I started doing the show back in 2005 because it was something that I needed to

do creatively.

It was a lot of,

and anybody who knows me knows that I can't sit still.

I know I have to constantly be doing something.

Um,

and,

and the show was the thing to do for many,

many years.

But,

uh,

Shadowlands for me was just not fun.

Um,

and I found that,

and,

and I just want to be clear about something.

Also,

I did play Final Fantasy 14 a lot.

Uh,

I did,

and I might still,

I haven't made a decision on this,

but I,

I did create a,

um,

a Twitter account for a 14 podcast,

but then the kitchen demolition got in the way.

And then I started pulling myself away from 14.

And then I started doing things like playing Skyward Sword.

And then today the kids were watching some,

some speed run of Super Mario Galaxy.

And I thought,

Jesus Christ,

I've never played that.

Why?

Because I just spent all my time playing.

Wow.

That I never,

for so many years now,

for so many years now that I never played Galaxy and I never played Odyssey and I never played Skyward Sword and I never played Twilight Princess.

And I never did all this shit because it was always about,

wow,

wow.

And,

and,

um,

you know,

I,

I guess there's,

there's another facet to the whole thing.

Um,

and Ren can probably understand probably the,

the,

the best in,

in this room right now.

Um,

we're not getting any younger.

And,

um,

I,

I don't want to,

I,

uh,

how do I put this?

I want to be able to do my own things.

And my wife says to me today,

she goes,

it'll be nice to get you back on Sundays.

Um,

to give you an example,

she,

she was leaving just before I was started recording.

She goes,

I'm,

I'm going to,

uh,

watch live music.

Sorry,

you can't go.

And she didn't say that wasn't sarcastic.

I mean,

it's just like,

she actually felt sorry that I couldn't go.

And I was like,

shit.

Yeah.

Like,

oh,

you know,

I have to sit here and talk about a video game.

It was like,

um,

uh,

there,

there are a lot of facets.

And now here's the thing.

I'm going to,

I'm going to say this.

The show is not going away.

Ren is taking it over.

That does not mean I will not be on the show that does now.

So,

so the way that it's going to work is that,

um,

Ren ordered the same mixer that I have.

Um,

I'm going to help her with,

with getting everything up and running.

Um,

what,

what I'm going to do.

I'm like,

there are a lot of things I wanted to,

like,

I'll give you an example back in 2005 when I wanted to do a gaming show.

I thought like the first thing I thought of was,

I want to do a generic gaming show.

Thank Christ I didn't do that because gaming culture is shit.

So,

you know,

I stuck to wow,

which was a,

I think a really smart move,

but you know,

I,

there are times when I go,

you know,

maybe I do want to talk about twilight princess,

or I want to talk about guild wars two or something like that.

Or I want to talk about wow,

but I don't want to have to talk about it every week.

And I think that's sort of like where it's coming from.

What,

what that might turn into nothing.

I don't know.

Um,

I don't know.

I'm never streaming.

Don't ever,

I'm just,

uh,

nobody wants to watch.

Nobody wants to watch me stream anyway.

Um,

but I don't know exactly what I'm going to do.

Maybe I'll do the 14 podcast.

Maybe I'll create something new.

Maybe I'll do nothing.

I don't know.

Well,

you've got two Star Trek.

Uh,

you've got,

you've got Star Trek podcasts to do.

No,

just one.

Oh,

just one.

Just one.

Um,

the Trek show isn't going away for,

for those of you that listen to that.

Um,

Karen,

I will be talking about,

um,

our news for that next week.

Um,

but that is not going anywhere.

Um,

so I,

I guess what,

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm doing this.

I don't want to,

I think it would be much,

much too strong to say that I'm doing this for my mental health because I'm really not.

That would be a lie.

Um,

I'm just doing this because I want to,

I want to have some time to myself.

Does that make any sense?

It makes absolute sense.

I did this back in 2009.

You did.

When I,

you know,

I left.

Wow.

I will.

Wow.

I did not.

Wow.

I left,

uh,

I left.

I'm not planning to leave.

Wow.

Um,

I left world of warcast in 2009 and then we got,

we got the party back started in,

in 2016.

But,

um,

and I got out of it for the same reasons that you are now,

which was,

we both said when you stop,

you really should stop podcasting about something when you're not in love with it anymore.

That's absolutely true.

But,

but that's the thing.

It's like people I've,

I've had this feeling.

I've,

I've talked about it with you too.

And Kara was in chat and I've talked to you about this before.

I,

I feel like there's this social obligation that I have to keep doing the show because

people say,

Oh,

I love listening to your show and everything.

And I,

I,

I love that people are happy to listen to the show,

but then I keep,

I lose myself in the whole thing.

And,

and that's part of the problem.

Uh,

Webley asked,

will you still be on discord?

Okay.

Let's,

let's talk about that.

Um,

yeah.

Ren,

uh,

the warcast discord is not going away.

It's still going to be there.

It's like Ren's,

uh,

an admin,

like she's not owning,

like I can't switch ownership to her cause it's my discord.

So,

but she'll still be there.

So it's not just that we warcast is going to remain part of the team Banzai

network.

Yeah.

Which is,

you know,

whatever it is.

Yeah.

So the warcast,

uh,

discord is going to stay in the same place.

We're still part of the same community.

Yeah.

I mean,

we're not doing this because,

you know,

we hate,

we decided we hate each other.

We're doing this because,

he needs to go in a different direction.

I totally get that.

And I,

but I want to keep the show going because it's a,

you know,

they're just saying to my husband,

it's a good old brand.

It is.

I offered the show.

I'll say like,

I offered the show to Ren and you said no at first.

And then the next day you said,

you know what?

That's actually not a bad idea.

So that was,

that was my first reaction when you,

when you said is let's just end the show.

And then I got thinking about saying,

I don't want to end the show.

Yeah.

And so I don't necessarily want to,

but I,

I,

when the three of us were talking before we hit the live button is like,

it's not fair to Ren to,

to,

to not have a regular schedule.

And I don't know when I'm going to log into the game again.

I could log in tomorrow,

but I could not log in for three months.

I don't know.

I,

and,

and that's the thing.

It's like,

I just don't give a shit about Shadowlands.

And it's like,

it's a horrible thing to say,

but,

and,

and I know a lot of people put a lot of work into this whole thing,

but I just,

again,

I'll just say it really sick of Sylvanas that,

I mean,

her,

her character thing.

I just don't care about her.

Now,

if,

if things get better,

then like in the next expansion or something,

yeah,

I'll play,

you know,

but I'm,

I'm,

it's not my show anymore.

Um,

well,

you know,

I've said that,

that you are,

you know,

you're welcome back whenever you decide to,

uh,

to do that.

Um,

and we've just had,

is Allie,

the new co-host.

Are we leading up to that from loose?

No,

no,

Allie.

I don't have enough time for Allie,

Allie.

So I'm going to talk about something with Allie,

Allie.

And I have been really like,

I've been,

I,

there,

there are three people that I,

I'm like really close to Cara.

Who's in chat,

Ren and Allie.

All right.

And I think,

and Allie says to me one day,

she goes,

when you do your last show,

promise me that I'll be on it.

And so boom,

there it is.

So Allie's on the show.

So it's not,

it's not a lead.

What are you doing on Sunday?

I said to her on Friday,

what are you doing Sunday?

so this,

this is not a lead up to,

um,

uh,

even though now in retrospect,

this sort of seemed like it,

but it's not a lead up for,

um,

Allie being a co-host.

She has too many podcasts already.

No,

I'm here.

Cause I get to say things now.

Oh,

what things do you have to say?

You're not going to like it,

Mike.

Oh,

I'm well,

go ahead.

I'm all ears.

You have led the way for so many other podcasts.

I like forever ago when I started listening to the show,

this was the first podcast that got me interested in podcasts.

And that's how I found tavern cast in the instance.

And,

you know,

on and on and on from there.

And there are so many other podcasts that exist now because you,

you got it going.

I mean,

yeah,

you started then,

you know,

a little bit while after like the instance started and stuff.

And,

and like the,

the trend got started and you showed an example of how,

how to make a good show and good discussion and how to engage in the

community and all of that.

And the number of times I found myself responding to you while listening to

the show was one of the reasons why I was like,

maybe I should make a podcast someday.

Maybe years and years later to actually do it.

But I can't thank you enough for paving the way for so many of us and having

not only did having Warcraft around during my darkest days help literally

keep me alive.

When I couldn't log in and I had to,

I had to walk my college classes or whatever it may be.

I always had tons of Warcast episodes ready to go for me to listen to my

walks to classes and stuff.

Just again,

help me stay level and sane and plus just generally entertain me and stuff.

And I'm incredibly grateful to you for that.

And I know I'm not the only one who was grateful for,

for you and all you've done with the show over the years and with the

community.

And I think Ren,

like it's going to be in fantastic hands.

And when Mike told me you were taking over,

I was,

I was really happy and I'm really excited to see,

see you run off with it.

Well,

I mean,

Mike and I met literally over an email where I said,

Hey,

this friend of mine said,

you're looking for a co-host and we don't know each other and we have no

idea how this is going to work out.

But I mean,

it was an incredible leap of faith to take someone who was a,

a complete unknown,

not that anyone was really,

you know,

experienced in podcasting at the time.

And I mean,

I can honestly say that I never would have had probably gotten my job a

while ahead if I hadn't had this experience of creating content for wow,

all these years with world of war cast.

And,

you know,

so,

I mean,

it was actually one of the things that I thought of when I came back in

2016 was,

Hey,

let's get out,

let's get the band back.

Let's get the band back together,

at least for a little while.

Yeah.

What had happened was I,

I,

I left the game because I thought that warlords was a shit expansion.

And it kind of was,

and,

and like people said,

it's like,

don't do the show if you're not happy doing it.

Well,

I wasn't happy doing it.

It's like,

I just could not,

I could not think of anything good to say about the game.

It was just all bad.

And then I got into the friends and family alpha,

for Legion.

And I thought,

well,

this is actually really good.

But by then everything had fallen apart.

You know,

the,

the show was gone.

And then Ren,

as she said,

she says,

like,

do you want to do this?

And I,

and I said,

sure.

It's like,

and,

and so we've been doing it ever since.

So this is our third expansion since we relaunched it.

But,

you know,

it's just,

it's just a real,

it's really boils down to just the real world thing.

And,

and,

and I've,

I've talked this out with Kara and Ren and,

and,

and Allie.

It's like there,

it's just that,

that,

that personal feeling of,

I feel like I have to do this for the fans.

It's like,

and,

and it's,

I can't do that anymore.

And not because I don't,

I don't appreciate the fans.

It's just,

I have to,

I have to take care of myself.

The heart attack really had a little bit to do with it.

You know,

I'm sure,

you know,

it's going to change your perspective a little.

Well,

that's the thing.

It's like,

it,

it changes your perspective in the sense that like,

I'm walking three miles a day.

Now my,

my doctor says I'm in really good shape.

Everything is fine.

But it might not have been.

And I don't part.

Now I have to say,

like,

if I had to throw a number at this,

I would say this was like 10 or 15% of the thing.

But I know you sort of think it's like,

you don't want to look back and say,

well,

you know,

I spent all my time playing a video game for other people.

Does that make sense?

I don't want this to sound selfish.

It's not,

but I feel that people have to take care of themselves.

And you can't really put this kind of time and effort into something that

just isn't,

you know,

it's not,

it's not top priority anymore.

Right.

And if you're,

if you're dreading,

if you're dreading to record,

like it's time to be done.

Yeah.

And you know,

and I've,

I've caught this for a while.

I've known,

I've,

I didn't know exactly that this was coming.

We only talked about this on Friday.

So,

I mean,

this has all been a little whirlwind.

But I've seen,

you know,

looking back,

I've seen it coming because there's,

there's just been this gradual disconnection.

Yeah.

Not between us,

but between you and the game.

Yeah.

Between me.

Between me and the game.

Yeah.

Because like I said,

the,

the slides project,

the,

the kitchen,

cleaning out the house,

the garage,

you know,

it's,

and I go,

well,

what does the garage have to do with anything?

I,

this is how like my brain works.

When I get focused on something,

I got to do it.

I'm the same way.

By doing that,

I felt,

I found that like,

oh,

I can take time away from the game and I won't die because of it.

Right.

You know,

I don't mean the,

I don't mean the heart attack.

I mean,

it's like,

you know,

I'm not going to burn in hell because I decided not to play wow today.

And then the next day and then the next day and then the next day.

And then it was like,

shit.

It's like,

I could actually not play for a week other than the show.

I can not play for a week and,

and I won't burn.

And I have time for other games.

Yeah.

I have time for other things.

Yep.

So,

and the thing,

and that's the thing.

It's like,

wow.

Captured a lot of people specifically because it was built very well.

Would I say that shadow lens is as bad as drain or no,

but

that would be a slight exaggeration.

Yeah.

But it was enough.

It was enough for me,

but I think the other,

the other aspect to the whole thing is wow.

Became a bit repetitious.

Mm hmm.

I,

I found,

I,

and again,

I,

I gotta bring up 14.

I'm like,

I don't,

I don't want to,

but it's,

I sort of have to like put it in perspective.

It's like,

you can walk into four,

you can log into 14 and you don't have to do everything every day.

You log into wow.

And it's like,

got to do my renown,

got to do this,

got to do,

but I don't want to,

I want to do something else.

And I want to do something and not make it,

not feel like I'm going to be behind.

Yeah.

And you know,

and part of that is just who you are.

Um,

I am perfectly capable of saying,

well,

screw that.

I'm not going to do it,

but I know that it would nag on you if you think that you're leaving some

obligation behind.

So,

and that's one of the reasons why,

you know,

I wasn't,

I wasn't really surprised by what,

you know,

the,

what we talked about on Friday,

but you know,

I think that it's good for you to recognize,

recognize in yourself that this is,

this is something that needs to change.

Yeah.

And so as your friend,

I am applauding this decision.

Absolutely.

Thank you.

I mean,

ultimately like after you've done anything for this long,

whether it's playing a certain game,

podcasting about it,

if it's a job,

like after so many years,

sometimes you just need that change.

Yeah.

And that's how a lot of people have been feeling with Warcraft before this

even came,

all this lawsuit stuff,

you know,

came out and I know you were feeling it for sure.

And,

you know,

it's just,

it's one of those things where it's just,

it's time.

Yeah.

And it happens.

And so the show is going to be in excellent hands with Ren.

And Ren has just been,

I just an excellent friend and,

you know,

a great person to work with for all these years on and off,

you know,

but,

you know,

I,

I would hope.

So don't delete the show from your feeds.

It's still going to be there.

It might be a little while.

I have to,

I have to help her set up.

We got to do all the technical stuff,

the mixer,

the transfer and,

you know,

and all that,

because she's going to own the.com and all that.

So,

yeah.

Yeah.

There's a lot of things that are going to be different.

I mean,

we're going to have to go through my,

my mixer isn't even supposed to arrive until the third week in August.

And I need it because all I will say about the co-hosting situation is it's

mostly settled and you will find out when the show,

the new show relaunches,

what that co-hosting situation is going to be,

but I hope you'll be very pleased by it.

As I said,

Allie was on my short list and then I was reading all of her tweets about

how she was just overwhelmed by everything.

And I'm like,

yeah,

I'm not going to,

I'm not going to stick her with this.

Well,

I,

I do,

I greatly appreciate the gesture for sure.

But the,

as I said,

so that's,

that is settled.

I'm not doing this by myself.

There's very few podcasts that I listened to and enjoy that only have one pot.

They'll only have one host.

So those are exhausting.

Don't do them.

Yeah.

I,

I think the only one that I listened to that there's a solo show that I

really like is,

is called swindled.

It's a true crime podcast.

It's really good.

So if you,

yes,

it's going to be Gideon loose.

You,

you,

you guessed.

Yeah.

It's going to be my cats.

Yeah.

World of war cats.

Yes.

Now they,

they don't play,

they don't have opposable thumbs.

It's a little hard to,

to type.

But anyway,

the so it's going to probably be till September that the shows good.

Cause there's a lot of,

there's a lot of technical stuff that needs to be handled.

As I said,

discord is going to stay where it is.

So we're going to continue to stay on track there.

I am going,

I am going to create a new Twitch channel just for world of war cast.

But pretty much everything else should appear seamless from the standpoint of

the,

of the listeners.

The format of the show.

Isn't going to,

you know,

the,

the focus of the show.

Isn't going to change much.

We're still,

you know,

it's still going to be,

you know,

largely centered on older gamers,

you know,

the 30 plus crowd.

Right.

We're not going to be adding any elite kitties here.

I think,

you know,

one of the things that was very important to me when looking at co-hosts for

the show with me is I don't want to clone of myself because I think that one

of the things that really works best for world of war cast is that we have

different perspectives.

We,

we have different experiences and not just have an echo chamber.

Yeah.

There's going to be kitties Webley.

Just,

just not,

they're more going to be in the back.

They're going to be the background,

not in the bed.

Music will be case.

Yeah,

exactly.

Um,

but,

um,

what I would welcome is any suggestions,

any suggestions for things you'd like to see things that you would,

would,

um,

like me to do in future in future shows,

et cetera.

You know,

if you have any ideas for,

you know,

segments or,

or anything like that,

please get ahold of me on the discord,

get ahold of me on Twitter.

Um,

let me know what you were looking for.

Um,

because you know,

this is a chance to,

I'm not,

it's,

as I said,

it's not going to be a vastly different show in the sense of the tone.

Uh,

I'm still going to be a casual player who's looking for weird ways to play the

game.

That's not going to change.

Um,

I just want to interject something.

Like as we were talking about this,

I just,

I had this moment where I thought,

Oh shit.

I don't know if I created a world of work has Twitch account just,

just in case you needed it.

I did.

I'm changing the password right now.

So it's like,

I,

I must've done it a long time ago because,

because I had two accounts or something like that.

So yeah,

I,

I did,

I did set that up years ago.

So you will have that.

Okay.

Thank you.

So I'm resetting the password right now.

Yay.

Um,

so,

but as I said,

you know,

I'm,

I'm not really expecting,

you know,

we're not going to go into a huge shift of our,

our basic core values.

We're still going to be,

you know,

very casual,

friendly and,

um,

it's not going to be exactly the same.

It can't be because I mean,

you're the one constant that's been through the entire thread of,

of world of warcast,

Mike.

So it's not,

yeah,

it can't be the same.

Yeah.

But what I can say,

it'll be true to the vision.

It's not going to be my show anymore.

So that's right.

That,

but it's never going to be completely away from your,

your original idea because that's what makes the,

that's what makes the show successful.

Yeah.

That's what the community has built up around.

Right.

I am that that's what people have been drawn to is what,

what has been created here,

which is great.

Right.

And you know,

the community is what I'm thinking of as I am doing this is what is the

community expecting and what does the community want?

That's why I'm looking for suggestions,

but it's also why I'm trying to make assurances that there aren't,

there isn't going to be a huge sea change here.

We're not suddenly going to become this,

you know,

slick.

Hey,

now.

Yeah,

exactly.

You know,

please make an intro like that.

I have an idea.

I am changing the intro somewhat,

but it's just because of a small change I've wanted to make for a while,

but.

Oh,

you didn't tell me.

I didn't know.

I know this was,

this was new to me.

I I've always wanted,

you know,

I like the music and I,

you know,

you don't have to send me the music file.

Yeah.

But I've always wanted a just standard intro.

Like,

you know,

Oh yeah.

You know,

podcasting to world,

to all of Azeroth.

This is world of warcast with Renata and to be announced.

Listeners.

I promise you'll be okay with it.

Yeah.

They know.

Um,

you know,

yeah.

Allie and,

and,

uh,

Mike's know what's,

uh,

Oh,

we know.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

We know that you guys know.

And,

um,

and it was,

it was approved.

Um,

so that's,

I think that it will work.

It will.

So anyway,

this is,

this is a tough one.

Well,

it's not tough for you because you're going to be back.

I'm not.

Well,

but you,

so we'll be around.

I mean,

you'll be on the,

we're all on the same discord.

It's not like,

it's not like you're dying.

No,

no,

I'm not going anywhere.

So don't worry about that.

Who's for the,

uh,

Katerina,

who's for the Alliance.

I'm afraid there might be a little issue with that one,

but there might be a bit of more bias going forward.

There may be a little hard bias going forward.

Just,

but at least you have enough alts on Alliance and everything.

And then I do complete.

And we will still have,

yeah,

and we'll still allow Alliance people on the show.

You'll allow Alliance.

Wow.

Well,

you know what?

Hold on a second.

I'm second guessing this thing now.

We need some more Alliance representation.

Yeah,

no,

well,

but there's different types of representation.

Is Gideon Alliance?

That would help.

Yeah.

Gideon,

Gideon is Alliance.

Yes.

There we go.

Gideon really,

um,

identifies with the,

with the lion.

So.

There we go.

Yeah.

I,

says I'm feeling Ren's side eye from here.

Yeah.

You do realize that the last thing that I say on this show is going to be for the Alliance,

right?

I,

I know,

and I am not going to,

and I am not going to say for the horde.

That is my parting gift.

All right.

A parting gift.

Wow.

Uh,

all right.

That said,

the cat says it's time to go.

Yeah.

Uh,

anything else,

uh,

anybody want to say before we go?

Thank you both for having me on this,

a little bit of a,

you know,

sad and,

and,

you know,

heavy episode,

but,

uh,

I was happy to be,

to be a part of it.

And again,

Mike,

just,

uh,

thank you for years and years of war cast.

I appreciate you.

Well,

I'll see,

I'll see you on Fridays anyway.

So I know,

but still saying that now,

cause I can,

you can't do anything about it.

No,

no.

And you will,

you will be a guest.

I will times when you are back into wow,

but I won't bug you until then.

I'll just be bugging you all through August.

How do I set this up?

Oh,

I have to help you with,

uh,

like if you're going to do,

if you're going to do the show live,

I have to help you with OBS also.

Yeah,

I know.

We'll,

we'll,

we'll work through it.

Yeah.

I can send you my,

uh,

my storm wind template.

Do it.

I promise I'll run it once.

Okay.

You can run it when I'm on the first episode.

Yeah.

I'll run it when you're,

I'll run storm when,

when you're on there.

Oh,

and I have,

I have,

I have other little things I have to send you like,

you know,

font files and,

you know,

font files and sound files,

sound files and all that.

So,

yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Bye.

No,

um,

it's,

it's been,

uh,

it's been a ride.

What is this?

This is,

it'll be 16 years.

Yeah.

It'll be 16 years.

Uh,

that's a long time for podcasters considering the fact that not a lot of

people were podcasting.

Uh,

before then.

I mean,

people were,

and I know that Apple did the big push with podcasts at the,

uh,

WWDC in 2005.

That's,

that's where a lot of this,

you know,

kick in the ass came from for a lot of people,

but there are podcasters before that.

Um,

but all I can say is that it's been a lot of fun talking to people and

meeting people at BlizzCon and,

you know,

working with Ren,

uh,

all these years.

Uh,

I'm not going anywhere.

No,

I know.

I'm,

I'm still going to be around and I'm not playing horde.

So don't ask me to,

um,

uh,

but you know,

that,

that's it.

That never,

Oh,

I remember now.

I remember the,

the thing that I wanted to say,

I read the title,

the title for the show.

I remember now it was going to be not every King rules forever.

And that was because of the whole blizzard thing.

Not because of me.

Uh,

that was what the title was going to be.

Um,

and by the way,

we just want to reiterate that this was not about.

Yeah.

Um,

I,

I didn't explicitly say this,

but I probably should so that there's no speculation.

If I was still playing wow.

And this lawsuit happened,

the show,

I would not be leaving the show.

Let's just say that,

uh,

it would be a,

it would be a bad,

bad thing to talk about.

And we did,

but I wouldn't stop the show because of it.

So I just want to be clear about that.

Cause I was like people,

the,

the one thing that it was just horrible.

It's like,

it's almost as like,

I was afraid that people were going to think that like,

I'm leaving the show because of,

you know,

all the other podcasters leaving bandwagon.

I was like,

no,

I'm just,

I just want to do other things in life.

That's it.

Correlation.

It's not causation.

Yep.

So,

so thank you everybody for the,

the fun and the awesomeness that I've had for the last 16 years.

And I hand it over to Ren now,

who's going to do an amazing job with this.

And I can't wait to hear it.

I'm not going to spill anything,

but,

um,

it's going to be a lot of fun.

Yeah.

Just get some more Alliance people on the show,

but that's it.

I,

I promise to have some Alliance representation going for her.

Okay.

Probably just not in the regular.

Um,

yeah.

Karen makes a really good point.

Time to hand over the car keys to the new driver.

That's,

that's actually not a bad analogy considering the fact that,

you know,

in some states you can drive when you're 16.

So it's like,

you know,

giving somebody else.

Oh,

so yeah.

Yep.

All right.

But I'll be in discord.

I'm not going anywhere.

I'm just,

I'm not going to be here.

Yeah.

So,

okay.

I don't want to drag this on for too much longer.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you to everybody.

And,

uh,

we'll talk to you later.

You could say bye.

And I'll say for the Alliance.

Bye.

For the Alliance.

I did it.

Bye.