On Air Podcast #42 - 31st December 2013 - IPDTL and The Big Broadcast

On Air Podcast number 42, IPDTL and the Big Broadcast.

You're listening to the On Air Podcast on the web at www.onairpodcast.co.uk,

providing material for use by hospital radio stations across the UK.

This is On Air Podcast number 42 for the end of December 2013 into the start of 2014.

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever, whenever you're listening.

Hello, welcome. This is Matt. This is the show for hospital radio volunteers around the UK

and also audio people in general. Also welcome anyone listening from the audio background

and this episode may be of interest to you.

Today we speak to Kevin Leach from InQuality Media at inqualitymedia.com

about his product IPDTL, which is focused on audio using the Google Chrome browser.

This podcast is brought to you in association with www.planetwideradio.co.uk

who are looking after our audio bandwidth and hosting. Thank you to them.

So we're going to chat to Kevin and then we're going to chat with our friend Richard Smith

from the A to Z of POP as well, both of them using IPDTL.

So first of all, I spoke to Kevin earlier on today and asked him to explain to us all about IPDTL,

how it all came about.

IPDTL is designed as a replacement for traditional broadcast contribution methods.

The main one, which most people are familiar with, being ISDN.

ISDN is now becoming a dated technology. It was great in its day.

It is still great for what it is.

However, the telecommunications companies are gradually winding it down

and whilst they do so, they seem to be charging more for it as well.

And it's very difficult to use ISDN on an ad-hoc basis

because you need to have a physical line installed.

So it's designed to replace that but be much more flexible.

And so how did, what was the reasoning for you to get involved

and sort of to find out more about this technology?

Sort of how did it evolve into what it is now?

My background.

My background is working as a studio manager.

Studio manager for BBC News radio programmes on Radio 4, 5 Live, The World Service.

I've spent many years sitting in such studios

and it's always an effort at getting people in quality

which is actually the name that I chose for the business in the end.

And I saw this gap in the market that it seems to be a constant effort

to get people into studios or get facilities to contributors,

get radio cars to contributors

that are obviously not particularly environmentally friendly,

quite complicated infrastructure.

And I just thought there's got to be an easier way.

I played around with a few other technologies that are already on the market.

Nothing seemed to be particularly cheap or foolproof.

And then at the same time, the browser manufacturers,

mostly Google with Chrome,

and also Firefox, Mozilla,

were developing technology in their web browsers

which allows live, real-time communication to happen with just a browser.

So it kind of all came together and I thought we've got to do this.

And so the technology, because I didn't actually say before,

we are connected via just Google Chrome,

the Google Chrome browser,

which is just a free-to-download browser.

Which seems slightly odd.

Whenever I tell anyone about it, they're going,

what, just the browser?

So it's a Google technology, is it?

Yeah, it's developed by a working group called WebRTC.

It's designed, the framework in the background, if you like,

is designed for you to be able to go onto your bank's website, for instance,

and click talk to advisor or whatever.

And you can do, you know,

kind of a Skype-like chat

without needing to install any additional software.

And it's, you know,

I think we're going to be seeing much more of it in the future.

And yeah, it was kind of a collaboration between the browser manufacturers,

Microsoft and Apple,

a little bit late to the party,

but we hope that they'll get involved at some stage also.

So they're currently, because Microsoft owns Skype, don't they?

That's right.

And then Apple have got their FaceTime.

So they, at the moment, they don't use the WebRTC.

Is that correct?

It isn't functioning in their browsers currently,

although I believe there are plugins available.

But I mean, we don't support them for IPDTL.

You know, it's much easier to say, you know, just use Chrome.

You know, it's a free browser.

It's a great browser.

I know people have got a few security concerns,

you know, kind of snooping concerns.

But, you know, I don't think that's a major issue

enough to stop people from using it.

So yeah, at the moment, we're only supporting Chrome.

Firefox isn't far away.

And as you say, Microsoft and Apple have kind of got their own agenda on this.

They've got their own products.

But I think what you will see is you'll see Skype being integrated

into Internet Explorer fairly soon.

So you'll do that in the browser.

And hopefully, eventually, all the browser manufacturers

will agree on some kind of standard between them.

OK.

But I don't think any of that's a major issue for us at the moment.

You know, it works in Chrome.

And, you know, it's not, as I say,

it's not a big ask to ask people to install Chrome.

No.

And it doesn't, because, I mean, I have a question here saying,

why use it over Skype?

Certainly one of my findings with Skype is that it's,

it likes to take over quite a lot of bits and pieces.

It likes to take over Internet Explorer with call to connect kind of buttons

instead of telephone numbers and things like that.

I find it quite intrusive.

But maybe that's just me.

Yeah, I suppose it's probably not my place to review Skype,

other than to say, you know, it's not designed for broadcast.

IPDTL is.

OK, great.

We will do a little Skype test.

Once we've finished having our main chat,

because, you know, we want to have the main chat in full quality.

So, on the subject of quality,

what kind of bandwidth is required at each site?

We put, and we being InQuality, my company,

which is behind IPDTL,

we, on a weekly basis, put one of the newspaper reviewers on Five Live,

BBC Radio Five Live, Bishop Stephen Lowe,

lives in rural Wales on a very flaky ADSL connection,

you know, standard broadband.

And he gets 0.3 megabyte upload at best.

And we put him on air.

And it sounds on a good day like he's in the studio.

So, I would say that's kind of a good starting point

from an upload speed point of view,

about 0.3 meg,

because you've got to allow for fluctuations

and, you know,

your neighbours using their broadband,

that kind of thing,

which can, you know,

you need to allow some headroom, as it were.

But with the actual speed that we connect at,

the actual bit rate is generally 56k,

which isn't much.

And is that what you're connected to at the moment that you're sending me?

I'm on 72 at the moment.

You can choose what level you send at.

And I know that my connection can handle a little bit more.

So, I selected 72k.

To be honest,

to your ears,

I don't think you would have noticed a lot of difference

if I'd connected at 56k.

I don't know about your experience,

kind of anecdotally.

Yeah.

I've not noticed a huge difference,

I must say.

Okay.

Because I'm sending to you at 56,

which is the sort of the default,

isn't it?

Yeah.

And I found that as,

you know,

the sweet spot, if you like.

You can,

if you're struggling with your connection speed,

you can go down to 40k.

Now, that sounds a little bit wobbly.

56 sounds fine.

I always think,

you know,

the more,

the higher bitrate you can go with,

the better.

Without going into too much detail,

the broadcast chain will induce various compression artifacts

as it,

you know,

as the signal works its way through the broadcast chain.

So, it's all,

you know,

especially if you're saving it as a podcast or whatever,

you know,

your compressors,

you're compressing the data further there.

So, it's always good to start with as high a bitrate as possible.

And so,

that bandwidth that you talked about,

that is,

that can only be achieved via a fixed line internet connection.

We're not thinking 3G.

We couldn't use this on 3G.

It has been used successfully on 3G.

I've done various trials.

I find 3G to be too unreliable.

It was great a few years ago.

It was great a few years ago before the great unwashed started to use it.

Everyone's got a smartphone now.

Everyone's watching videos on their phones and that kind of thing,

you know,

listening to radio on their phones,

which is great.

But it does mean that 3G is not a guaranteed service anymore.

4G seems,

you know,

in tests seems a lot more stable,

but then most of the public aren't using it at the moment.

That could change.

Hmm.

Okay.

But to answer your question,

yes,

it does work on 3G.

I wouldn't advise it just because it's just too flaky.

Just too dodgy and you want to get a good result at the end.

So we've got the fixed internet connection in place.

What do you recommend in terms of microphones or equipment?

Obviously,

the majority of those listening will be hospital radio volunteers.

So they've got their studio back at base

where they may well have a sort of an internet machine,

which they might be running Skype on already,

in which case sort of that side of it is hopefully sorted.

What about the remote side?

If they were wanting to,

you know,

similar to the way that Five Live is doing the newspaper review,

what would you suggest sort of there in?

Our favourite USB microphone right now is what I'm talking to you on as we speak.

It's a Blue Yeti,

which is a condenser microphone.

It looks fairly snazzy.

It's quite a shiny thing.

It's quite large.

And it comes in just under the £100 mark,

which you might think is too much.

But for that price,

it sounds great.

And you know,

it's plug and play and it just works.

There are some cheaper models.

There's the Blue Snowball,

which is a slightly more basic version.

It doesn't sound as nice and warm as this Yeti mic.

And then we've got a batch of mics made by Symphony Acoustics,

which come in under the,

come in around the £40 mark.

They're available from CPC at the moment.

There are some issues,

some driver issues on some Windows machines with them,

but generally they perform really well.

And there's a similar mic,

which is difficult to get hold of in Europe.

You might need to get it from the States.

It's made by Audio-Technica.

And it is,

I'll tell you what,

I'll just go to our website now

and check the exact number for you.

It's the,

and from memory,

it is the ATR.

Let's see,

ATR 2100.

And the beauty of that is it's handheld.

So if you're doing an outside broadcast or whatever,

it's a bit more robust

and it's more suited to kind of doing interviews

and that kind of thing.

The outside broadcast would obviously be using Wi-Fi

and that's all okay, is it?

You've done quite a lot of stuff with Wi-Fi

rather than just a fixed ethernet?

Yeah, I mean, I've put guests on Radio 4

sitting outside people's houses using their,

I don't know if you're familiar with BT Fon,

you can use other people's broadband legitimately.

So I've sat in a car with a laptop

using somebody else's Wi-Fi

and put guests on Radio 4 programmes.

And, you know, it sounds and works great.

That said, I just, I advise against Wi-Fi

just because it can be flaky,

you can get interference.

Actually, on one of those occasions

when I was sitting in a car outside a house,

the guest came in with his iPad

and him coming in with another Wi-Fi device

was enough to drop it off.

So you've got to be, you've got to be wary.

I mean, you say an OB,

it would obviously be Wi-Fi.

I appreciate the limitations sometimes,

but you can always ask the owner

of the internet connection,

is it OK if I string a cable?

You know, a lot of people don't realise

that there are ethernet cable, ethernet ports

on the back of their router.

And if you say, you know, can you show me it?

Can I string a cable across and plug it in?

You know, often they'll say yes.

OK, great.

And so, slight diversion,

heading back to those microphones,

they were all USB microphones, were they?

Yes, they were.

And they're the ones I would recommend.

I mean, the bottom line with microphones,

is if it sounds good, it sounds good.

The built-in microphone on a MacBook

sounds remarkably good, actually.

I know MacBooks are fairly expensive in the first place,

but if you happen to have one

and you talk at a reasonable distance from it,

the MacBook mic sounds great.

Or you may have an existing interface

such as the Shure X2U

or the Blue Icicle

or maybe, you know, like a Behringer USB interface

or whatever, you can plug any microphone into that.

And, you know, if it sounds good, it sounds good.

OK, great.

The audio, is it just mono,

or is it stereo, or what is it?

It's currently mono

because we see the main market

as, you know, only requiring mono

for voice contributions, you know, the audio.

But if you're doing an OB,

then, you know, traditionally for an OB,

you have someone in the studio playing the music in,

so you wouldn't want to feed music down.

Voiceovers are our other big market at the moment.

And again, they're not interested in stereo.

That said, a few people have suggested doing a whole OB,

playing all the music from the remote location.

So it's something that we will look at.

You know, we can look at it.

It is easy to implement the stereo

and indeed increase the bandwidth.

Whether internet connections are up to the job

and whether it's really best practice

is kind of up for discussion.

I mean, there's an argument that says

to get a really good bit rate

to justify playing music down,

you'd need a really good internet connection.

And, you know, is that as good practice

as playing out linear audio files from your studio?

Probably not.

OK.

So for the future,

what are the plans

that you can reveal?

There's all sorts.

Kind of in the pipeline.

Right now, we're looking on making it

as stable as possible with, you know,

backup servers and that kind of thing.

So, you know, it will always work.

We have an upgrade planned

hopefully in the next month,

so January 2014,

which will allow you to,

instead of just connecting to people

in your same, you know,

in the same user pair

in your radio station,

you'll be able to search for any user

although not on the free version.

There are plans

to implement recording in the browser

so you can click record

rather than having to have, you know,

recording to third-party software.

Going much further forward,

I mean, we talked about stereo,

that's a possibility.

We, in quality, have used

IPDTL successfully for video.

We've put guests on Sky News

using IPDTL with video.

So that's something that we look to implement.

And that's probably,

that's probably enough for now

without giving away too much.

One question that I did have

come back was the idea of

group or conference calling.

Is that in the

pipeline or

is it a possibility?

It's not something that

people have shown too much of an interest in

at the moment. Currently,

most people are looking to achieve

the same thing they're achieving with ISDN but in,

you know, a much more flexible way

in locations that they've never been able to

get ISDN in the past.

So that's the main

solution that we're looking at.

IPDTL works peer-to-peer, so it sends

the audio from my computer to your

computer direct across the internet,

ideally. Sometimes it employs a relay

server if necessary.

Now if you were doing conference calling,

all of the data would have to go

via a server and kind of get

mixed in the server if you like,

which means more infrastructure,

more bandwidth, and

generally just, you know, makes it more complicated.

You know, you end up with,

you know, potentially

you've got lots of different sample rates

being mixed together. It suddenly

gets much more complex.

It is something that we

will look at eventually.

However, I'm not

entirely sure what

need

we'd be looking to

solve initially.

Sure, I mean, I think

it was related

more to the podcast

accounts that you do, because

some podcasts are, you know,

multiple presenters, two, three,

four, or, you know, even more

crazy numbers.

Can you, in essence, load

up Chrome twice

to run it?

Yeah, you can't

run it in two tabs in the same

browser. You could run two instances

of Chrome,

and, yeah, and

therefore have two incoming

streams. That's possible. It's not something

that we support or

advise at the moment. You know, we're kind of learning

to walk before we run.

But, yeah, that is a possibility.

The kind

of, the traditional sound engineer in me

says,

you know, kind of, is a little bit nervous

about that kind of thing, because, again,

going back to best practice,

you know, how do you balance the

levels and that kind of thing? I mean,

it's definitely achievable.

It's not

a can of worms I want to open

right now. Fine, fair enough.

Let's talk about the

accounts, then. So,

at the moment,

because you launched, what,

sort of November-ish time, was it?

Yeah, really recently. It's been a whirlwind,

to be honest. And you won

the Tech Innovation Award, which kind of

put you

kind of

front and centre, as it was, really, in terms

of the technology and what you were doing.

And it probably exploded from there

and you

have initially

opened them up for free accounts.

How do things, how does

things progress further down the line?

So, at the moment, for example,

I'm talking to you on the free account,

eventually

things change, don't they?

Yeah, I want to keep

the free version as an option.

I think it's a great way for people to

dip their toe into

IPDTL. Currently, the

free version still includes our

use of our relay server. I mentioned this

peer-to-peer connection. Sometimes

you can't establish a peer-to-peer connection

due to your router or internet connection or

whatever. So it

employs our relay server.

That is still

working on the free version. It

won't be for long.

That may or may not be

an issue for some users.

Also, we mentioned that I'm

sending to you at 72k at the moment.

The free version will be reduced to

40k. The

lowest level.

So, it will still be there, the

free version. But, I mean,

we are a business and it would be

great for anybody

who's using IPDTL seriously.

Then it would be

great to think that they would

purchase a subscription

which is remarkably cheap.

So, tell me about those

subscriptions. I mean, obviously,

again, most people listening here

are registered charities

on a hospital radio station.

So, maybe let's focus

in on that.

The charity account.

Yeah. £34

is the going rate currently for

a charity account. That gives you

two logins. So, you can have a login

for your studio computer and one for your

laptop that you take out on the road, for instance.

But it's not

dedicated to those computers. So, you could use it

on ten different laptops, just not at the same

time. It also, that

does give you the full range

of bandwidths for bitrate.

From 40 to 72k,

which is what, as I say, I'm talking to you on now.

And it does also

include use of the relay service. So, it's kind of,

you know, it's everything that you need

as long as you only want to do

one connection at once.

And that's a 12-month

subscription. Okay, so that's

12 months, £34

a year. And that's for

registered charities or basically

hospital and community stations. Yeah, yeah.

Brilliant. Okay, that's fantastic news.

And

you do

do a podcast account, but that is

basically the same, but obviously

just for podcasters. So, if there's

just podcasters listening that aren't

part of a hospital radio station,

that's a little bit more, yeah?

Yeah, exactly the same product,

different price. You know, the idea being

that, you know, we don't, I'm

aware of the budget limitations

for hospital and community

stations. And therefore,

you know, I'd hate to think that in buying

IPDTL, you know,

it potentially, you know, that was the straw

that broke the camel's back on

their budget. Okay, fantastic.

£34 charity

account. Where can people find out

a little bit more?

If you go to, the easiest thing to do is to go

via IPDTL.com. There's

a get an account link on that page.

And that will take you to our

corporate web page with

loads of, you know,

a whole wealth of information about IPDTL

with tutorial

videos and frequently asked questions.

And there's also a page

on there which gives you the various

pricing options. And so at the

moment, you mentioned about the one

login remote and one in

the studio. Is that ever going to change?

Are you always giving out accounts

in pairs or is that going to change?

It's a good question and it will change

because, as I say,

you'll soon be able to search and connect

for any, connect to any

user. Therefore, some users

might not require two accounts. If you're a

podcaster, then you might

not need the second account

because you're connecting to people who already have

their own accounts. So we will

switch to selling

logins individually. However,

for a community station or

a hospital station, for instance,

there will still be the option to

you know, we will

still give you two logins

for that budget price of £34

because we

know that there's not much point

in having IPDTL if there's nobody you can connect to.

No, absolutely. Okay.

Brilliant. And so

I'm just thinking

and listening to what you were

saying, I'm just thinking, well, perhaps if

other hospital radio stations get

it, then we can then search for

other hospital radio stations and connect

to them remotely and things like that.

That's the plan, yeah?

Yeah, well, quite. If you

you know, it opens up possibilities for doing

all sorts of simulcast and kind of

fun

live programming, you know,

because hospital radio often

the limitation is that you've

got one studio, you know, one person in one

studio. If you can start connecting to

colleagues

at other stations and

kind of sharing content, then

you know, without going down

the massive

corporate network route,

then, you know, that sounds quite exciting to me.

Yeah, yeah, great. I mean, for example,

at the end of this podcast, we will be

chatting to Richard Smith, who is going to be doing

a New Year's Eve programme, which is

going to be syndicated around

about 40 hospital

radio stations around the UK over

that New Year's Eve into New Year's Day

period. I think he's doing

24 hours of madness.

So, yeah, that kind

of idea and that kind of way

that he could connect to other stations

would be very good.

Yeah, with a view to, if some of those

stations could,

if I can get my words out, if some of those stations

could contribute to the networked

programme, then that sounds

like great fun. Yeah, yeah, brilliant. Okay,

so ipdtl.com

is where people should go

and then they can,

at the moment, they can do the

free trial,

just the free account is still on

for the normal bandwidth.

Any radio, yeah, any radio station,

be it, yeah, community,

hospital, commercial, BBC,

can sign up for a free account.

Currently, that's All Sing Eagle

Dancing. It will be restricted

in due course.

But it certainly gives you

enough functionality

to try it out and get a feel for what it is.

Fantastic.

That's great. Thank you, Kevin.

What we're going to do is

we're going to end this call

and then we'll make a call via Skype

just so that we can have a comparison

of the audio, if you don't mind.

Of course. So,

let's do that and

podcast listeners,

there will be a short break, but we

will be back. Thanks, Matt. Talk to you

in a moment. Yes, thank you. Cheers.

.

Okay, this is Kevin via Skype.

.

Hi, Matt. Hello there.

Now, you haven't changed

any microphones, have you?

No, we're still on exactly the same

configuration. Okay, fantastic.

Let me just get that down and

you are appearing much louder on my

levels here.

Do you want me to adjust my levels down?

No, no, it's fine. I've tweaked

it slightly on this.

It's not clipping as such?

No, no, it doesn't

sound like it's clipping. So this is

exactly your same microphone.

You've not moved a

muscle apart from loading up

Skype. Exactly.

I've logged out of IPDTL,

switched to Skype, and

here we are. So that's good. That's

given us a good direct

comparison. One of the things that Skype

does is sort of

talks over the person when they're

coming back at you. Does

IPDTL do that, or does it sort of

it doesn't prioritise

who has the volume sort of

thing? No, we

initially, the

framework in the browsers

is designed to work like Skype

so that if one person talks,

it cuts off the other person. So if you're using

a loudspeaker,

yeah, you can talk

over each other without

getting any howl round,

without hearing yourself back.

Echo cancellation, as it calls

it. We removed that from

IPDTL, so it does work like

an ISDN. If you were playing

music to me now, and I was

talking, I would be able to talk over

that music and one wouldn't

cancel out the other. Okay.

Fantastic. Is there anything else that you

would like to mention before we say goodbye?

I think you've

covered everything rather comprehensively,

Matt, so thank you for talking to me.

I suppose the only other thing to

say is that we're very open

and keen

for, you know, we'd like

to receive tweets with questions

and feedback and that kind of thing, and we will

aim to

respond to all

suggestions and

questions as quickly as

possible. And what is your Twitter

username?

At IPDTL. Lovely.

Brilliant. Thank you, Kevin Leitch from

InQuality Media, and

IPDTL.

You're listening to the OnAir Podcast

on the web at

www.onairpodcast.co.uk

The big broadcast starts 4 o'clock

December the 31st, and then

how long are you going on for?

We're going on for 20 hours,

so we finish at midday

on the 1st, which is, I think

it's ample enough time for people to

go out, enjoy themselves, and then come back

and get back into the swing of hospital radio.

Okay, fantastic. And how

many stations are

taking it this year?

I'm pleased to say it's the best one we've ever

done. There's 41 stations

in the UK and Ireland, all over the

place, taking it this year. Fantastic.

That's great. And what are

your

top three things that you're looking

forward to this year?

Apart from the end?

Yeah,

I think it's

just the general, the fact that so

many stations are taking part, and

have taken part in it. They've provided

their own take on the A to Z

of pop, which is great. So I've asked them all to

do a 15 minutes of fame,

we've called it. So that's

one of the highlights for me. I'm

hoping, I'm hoping that

a neighbour of mine, Mr

Tony Livesey from Radio 5 Live,

will come across and

do an interview with me live

while we're actually doing the big broadcast.

But that's not set in stone or anything yet.

Other than that, we've got the big

request show element of it, which goes out

between 6 and 10 in the evening.

On New Year's Eve.

And lots of party tunes to get us up to the

big bend chimes at midnight.

Fantastic. And is there,

are you taking

live

audio in during the programme, or

is it all just in the can and

you're just kind of spewing

it out in the nicest possible way?

Well, yes. I think there's a lot

of it obviously already in the can. I've done interviews

with our sponsors, Oscar

Pet Foods. And I've

also been rescued by a search and rescue

dog. Okay. Which was

an interesting afternoon. And

makes good listening actually. I've also done

interviews with

a guy called Stuart Mabbitt, who's

hoping to put out programmes

on the Hospital Radio Network in 2014

called Going Wild

with Wildlife. So that's an interesting

15 minute piece that's already been done.

Yes, we're able to take

live phone calls and

comments and, not

criticisms, I won't be bothered with those.

But yeah, we're

able to take things live over the phone

and whatever.

As we did last year, we had a couple

of people ringing in from the wards and

a couple of people, not from the wards,

ringing in. So yeah,

we're able to do anything live.

We've got some live music

from, I don't know whether

I ought to mention this, but the lady

in question, Kiki Deville, has

entered next year's The Voice.

Okay. So

we're hoping that she does quite well on that.

And she's going to teach me

how to sing.

Fantastic. Well,

yeah, you've not heard me sing, have you?

So,

yeah, we're looking forward to it. It's 20 hours

you've got to learn it over that spell

of time. Yeah,

to be honest, it's not that taxing, Matt.

It's just

a bit of background vocals,

very much in the background. I'll let the people that

do it professionally do

it first, and then I'll just

chip in from the background. I think that's my favourite.

Absolutely. And so,

if stations would like to get in contact

with the programme whilst it's on, what's the

best number?

The telephone number to dial is

0191 58 00

101. 0191

58 00 101.

We're on the email,

at the a to z of pop, that's all one word,

at aol.com. And we're

on the Twitter machine, at the a to z

of pop. So you're

able to get in touch with us whichever

way you like, really. You can access

the feed via the

website at

www.theazofpop.co.uk

and you're able to

follow the links from there, and you're able to

tune in live, as it were.

And it's all thanks to the technicians

and the guys at Auckland Hospital Radio

who are carrying the stream for me. So I'm

very grateful to them for actually

putting up with me for 20 hours once again.

Fantastic. Anyone else,

or anything else you would like to mention before I let

you go and get back to the planning?

Yes, if you know of a good

doctor that can make my voice right

for this evening, that would be

great. But no, I mean

anybody's welcome to join in, and

as I say, if you want to take part in it,

give us a call on that number,

01915800101.

And we'd love to hear from you, as indeed

we'd love to hear from any listeners

out there that are unfortunate

enough to be in the circumstances that they're in

on New Year's Eve. Fantastic. Thank

you, Richard, for your time again, and good luck.

Thank you very much indeed,

Matt. My pleasure.

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