E092 Cliff Mautner

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Hi, my name is Cliff Mounder, and I'm a wedding photographer, and you're listening to LightSource.

And welcome to episode 92 of LightSource, the official podcast of studiolighting.net,

the website introducing photographers to portrait and studio lighting equipment and techniques.

I'm Bill Crawford, publisher.

And I'm Ed Hidden, exclusive photographer with eyestalkvoter.com.

Now, on today's episode, we have an interview with a top wedding photographer.

Cliff Mounder, he is a highly decorated photographer, and you can check out his website

at cmphotography.com.

In the interview, we talk a little bit about some of his kudos that he's gotten.

He's American Photo Magazine, one of the top 10 wedding photographers in the world, and

NICOR, I guess he's the only NICOR wedding consultant photographer.

I'm totally screwing this up, but I know we talk about it in the interview.

And if you go to his website and check out his website and then check out his blog, you

can see that this guy has some amazing, amazing work.

It's just.

It's awesome to look at.

I thought Cliff's interview was really exciting and kind of refreshing because of the way

that he approaches his wedding photography.

I'm not even a wedding shooter, and I just really enjoyed his whole attitude about how

he gets his shots.

He had some really cool, really cool insight that I've been kind of taken to heart when

not just doing wedding photos, but just any kind of photos.

It's kind of interesting.

And he's definitely a straight shooter.

I mean, there's no mixing words with him.

He's right to the point.

Plus, got to give mad props to Cliff because he's such a Nikon guy.

So I'm just saying.

Well, when he was talking about the camera and how, what was the ISO?

He said 6400 that he shoots at without being concerned about noise.

That's unbelievable.

It's just as exciting to think about that kind of margin in your shots.

I know.

And it's I see some of these people that are shooting with the newest model SLRs and they're

just ISO 250,000 or something ridiculous like that.

And it's like, I think I'm just like not comfortable going over 800.

Right.

Yeah.

It's just really cool.

The way that the technology is moving.

Absolutely.

Speaking of technology.

Well, we should probably mention the downside of technology before we get into all of this,

shouldn't we?

Like spending all your money.

I was going to say the reason that we haven't done a podcast for a little while.

Yes, we were.

We were out of business, man.

We had a sunken hard drive in the Mac mini that powers all this wonderful stuff.

So that was that was quite an adventure.

But we're back.

We are back.

And, you know, I'd like to thank all the I've gotten tons of comments from Facebook and

the iStock photo people, you know, reaching out and saying that they had they've been

missing their show.

So it's a we're back, guys.

Right.

But in the meantime, since we've been gone on the plus side of technology, Adobe announced

CS5.

Yes.

And it looks cool.

Oh, man, I'm so excited.

I can't.

What is the biggest thing that you are excited about with CS5?

I'm going to have to say that I spend the most time in editing images doing things like,

you know,

removing things from photos and stuff.

So the what do they call the smart, smart removal, smart deletion and the content, the

content aware content aware fill is it's going to save so much time for me.

Just it's not even fun stuff.

You know, it's one thing like to do creative things to an image.

And I don't mind spending a lot of time doing that.

But when there's like tedious work to be done, I just need to, you know, I need a tool that's

going to get me there really quickly.

And the changes they've made to Photoshop are just.

Are exactly along those lines.

So I'm pumped.

Yeah, I think one of the things that I'm really interested in is the the new masking features

that they have.

I mean, they've always had the extract filters and the background erasers and things like

that.

But it looks like they have a new it's kind of like a quick selection sort of thing.

And it doesn't even really matter what sort of background you shoot something on.

I mean, you could shoot it on just a regular sky background or a room background and you

can mask out a person very quickly.

You can refine the edge for the hair and you can continually go through the process of

going in and swipe your brush over top of it and continually refine your your edging,

you know, add more into the mask or add a little bit more into the transparency side of

things. And then you can you can strip stuff out very quickly.

So that's one thing that I'm excited about, although it sort of makes me want a Cintiq

tablet more than ever.

It's pretty cool stuff. Got to admit, have you preordered?

I have not preordered, but I've been I've been keeping my eye on it.

I have an iStock mini lips coming up that I need to save some funds for.

But after that, I'll probably look at it some point.

And this summer or so, we'll we'll see how things go.

But it looks very, very cool.

It does. Now, they also upgraded the version of Lightroom beta, right?

Yeah, the beta for Lightroom has been upgraded.

They have a beta two.

I downloaded it and played with it at work.

I haven't installed it here at the house yet because I don't want to convert all my Lightroom

catalogs yet. Right.

But it is definitely getting a lot better.

It's a lot faster, which was probably one of my biggest gripes with the previous version

of the beta. And they have increased a lot of the the way that some of like the noise

characteristics and things like that.

So.

Excellent.

Yeah.

So I've heard that the processing is getting a little bit better on it.

And the big thing that I had the issue with was the speed.

So that's getting resolved as well.

I'm going to hold off on installing this beta two.

Just when you say it's good, I'll go for it.

Well, speaking of playing with technology, I've gotten to check out the iPad a couple

of times.

Tell us.

I haven't purchased one, but two or three different people that I know have them.

And I've been checking that out.

Boy, it really makes your mind real at all the possibilities for photographers.

It doesn't have.

The camera, but for presentation, there's just it's a whole new medium almost in the

way that it feels.

It's really remarkable.

Yeah.

I've been reading some of the reviews and I think Dignation had the most interesting

discussion about it.

I always like their platform for things because you have the one guy who's really, you know,

a major, major Mac head.

And yet the other guy who is, I guess, you know, more PC centric.

Right.

So, you know, he always has the contrary Apple point of view or, you know, at least like

the non anything.

Apple is awesome.

I should say.

And I think they really summed it up great where they were saying that, you know, like

they considered the iPhone to be a must have device where it's like really changed the

way that you dealt with using a phone, basically.

And they said that, you know, the iPad was really, really cool, but they didn't feel

that there was anything that it offered that they couldn't get with a netbook or something

else that they already own.

So I thought that was really interesting to hear them say that.

And I was like, I'm glad I didn't really pull the trigger on opening day on it.

Right.

Well, when you hold it in your hands.

It really does offer kind of a unique experience.

That's all I can really say about it.

When you're flipping through photos and the way you're able to manipulate like gestures

are just a lot more natural on such a large screen and stuff.

And it's beautiful.

The graphics are stunning.

So I think that there will be opportunities for people to use it for sure in the business

world and for presenting portfolios for photographers or even proofs and, you know, doing all that

allowing someone to kind of hold something and flip through.

They just have done a really good job with that part of it.

So.

I'm sure we'll see some people really take advantage of that.

I've also heard about some photographers that are talking about using iPads as a delivery

device for like a proofing device where they would just build it into the cost of their

estimate and take all of their wedding photos or whatever and just install it on an iPad.

And that's a great idea.

And just hand the iPad to their client and say, here you go, you know, here are your

photos and they can go through them and look through them.

And then when they're done, they have an iPad, too.

That's a great idea.

That's really, really creative way to handle it.

That's going to cost another five hundred dollars.

That's all.

Right.

Well, I agree with what you're saying, though, about it not being like a must have device.

I mean, it doesn't have a it doesn't have a camera inside of it.

So you have to do some funky tethering, you know, to use the camera on your iPhone and

stuff like that.

If you wanted to get, you know, capture images even with it at all for presentation, it's

going to be something to check out.

Well, before we get off the topic of iPad, I was on the John Knack blog at blogs.adobe.com

slash J Knack, N-A-C-K.

And he had a post that I thought was really interesting because we've we've been talking,

about iBooks on the iPad and how cool it might be for photography.

There is a demo on the date of April 23rd.

So it's pretty recent.

And it's a video done by Terry White from Adobe.

He's one of the Adobe trainers.

He did a video on how to create an iBook in the EPUB format for the iPad using InDesign

CS5, which is really cool, especially if you're going to be one of those people that are either

looking at delivering, you know, photos on an iPad.

Or whether you want to just sell photography books or do some sort of publishing for it.

It's definitely something you want to check out.

So it's pretty neat.

That's on blogs.adobe.com slash J Knack.

Excellent.

Cool.

Talking about learning, you mentioned a link that you had seen about a new website.

Oh, yeah.

Chase Jarvis is at it again.

And he and a number of other notable photographers have launched a project called creativelive.com,

which essentially is a website dedicated to digital training.

You basically can get a ticket to watch training and some of the topics that are on the site

right now.

It's kind of new, but there's a CS5, a full week of CS5 events, fundamentals in digital

photography, a couple others that caught my eye.

One was a Vincent Lafayette workshop about HD DSLR cinema.

And there's one coming soon from Zach Arias on studio photography.

So just a number of really interesting courses.

Now, here's the situation.

If you're around when they're recording the course or broadcasting,

the course, it's free.

So you can actually have access to all this content absolutely free.

And then if you miss the live broadcast, then of course you can purchase the episodes for download.

So it's really a kind of unique model and something that I hope really takes off some

great content here.

Yeah, that's a really cool idea.

I know that he's done, he's mentioned before about doing some live video shoots where he's

been doing some different projects and stuff in his studio and they have live videoed the

actual shoots themselves.

And I guess.

I have to catch a few minutes with some of them.

And unfortunately I was at work for a lot of them.

So I missed some of the really good stuff, but there was some really cool content and

that, that was really just doing a shoot.

So it'll be really cool to see them do these live courses.

Right.

Well, check it out.

It's a creative live.com.

Yeah.

A couple other good ones that you had mentioned to me.

There's a creative eye with art wolf series, aperture three with Scott Bourne and vision

driven photography with David Dushman.

I thought those would be some really good sessions to,

to, to, you know, to make time to attend.

No doubt.

Well, I believe that's all the news that we have.

We've rambled a bit here in the, in the beginning part of the show.

We should get right into the cliff mountainers interview because it's a good one.

And on this edition of the lake source, we have with us this evening, a talent wedding

photographer, cliff mountainer, um, American photo magazine and named him as one of America's

top 10.

Actually one of the top 10 wedding photographers.

Yeah.

He's one of the top 10 wedding photographers in the world.

Me core photography.

He is the international wedding photography spokesperson and shoots tons and tons of weddings

a year.

An amazing website.

Go ahead and check it out while we're getting into the interview.

It's www.cmphotography.com.

Cliff, thanks for joining us.

You're very welcome.

Thanks a lot.

And for those that are listening, um, you know, I would have to say that while the websites

of all photographers are, are, you know, relevant and important and all that kind of stuff,

the blogs now, I really believe the blogs are a window into a photographer's soul because

you know, it's, it's very easy right now, uh, to look at someone's website and, you

know, to go ahead and, uh, you know, buy a template and put up 30 or 40 or 50 images

of your favorite images, you know, throughout your entire career, whether that career be,

you know, uh, two years old or, you know, myself, 29 years old.

Um, I don't think you can see and appreciate the style.

I don't think you can see and appreciate the style.

I don't think you can see and appreciate the level of work or the level of consistency

in a photographer's work unless you look at their blog because the blog will tell you,

Hey, is this photographer working?

What type of images is this photographer producing?

Uh, how prolific is this photographer?

How is the level of consistency week in and week out?

You know, in wedding photography, it's, it's a crucial element as far as I'm concerned.

And I've always believed that you're only as good as your last wedding.

So I think that's really relevant.

Nice.

That's an excellent point.

And your blog is amazing.

Well, when,

when our listeners go to the website, there are two links there at the bottom.

One says enter the site and the other one says enter the blog.

Right.

Um, and they, they both need a little updating.

The blog is, you know, some more recent stuff on there, but, uh, I'm in the middle of an

office renovation, literally, and you know how contractors are.

So my desktop computer with all of my blog actions and everything of that sort on there,

um, that's, that's got, uh, plastic bags over it.

And I haven't even been able to access that computer in about six weeks.

Wow.

So when they promise you the standard two weeks as a contractor usually does, you know,

it's more like two months.

So I'm, I'm getting close to the end there.

And, uh, so I'll be blogging again pretty soon.

And I, as much as I like to say, uh, you know, I'm going to keep up with the blog.

It's, you know, when you're working a lot, it's, it's, it's kind of difficult, but I'll

get it there.

I promise.

So no problem.

You mentioned working a lot.

And, uh, I think for some people, you know, that's a, that's maybe a couple of weddings

a month.

What does that mean?

What does that mean for you?

Well, you know, for the past, uh, I've, I've been shooting weddings now, uh, since 1997

or so, um, started in 97.

I shot a couple of weddings for, um, uh, a friend of mine and then, um, 98, 99, right

in that area, I really started getting into it full time.

So for the past 10, 11, 12 years, I've been averaging, you know, well over, uh, you know,

50 weddings per year.

Wow.

This year right now, I've got, uh, 50.

53 or four booked for 2010, but you know, it's, uh, again, it's in this, in this economy,

I'm, I'm probably as proud of that element as any accolade that I've won because one

of the things that I've preached and one of the things that I've taught in workshops and

seminars and, you know, I, anybody who knows me at all knows that I try to keep it real.

You know, I'm a, to a fault, I'm an extremely straight shooter and I don't think that there's

a whole lot of credibility.

And teaching people how to shoot weddings, teaching people how to book weddings with

regard to the business acumen that comes along with it.

If you're only shooting five weddings a year, uh, so, you know, this year I'm only doing

three lighting and skillset bootcamps, which is, uh, a pretty successful venture I took

on a few years ago, which was really designed to empower.

We can talk about that later.

It's designed to empower photographers with the skill sets needed to go after a style

of their own.

And instead of just buying a digital camera.

I'm jumping in head first, but, um, it's, it's the shooting acumen, it's, it's staying

busy, uh, you know, shooting this many weddings, you know, it's, it's difficult and it's time

consuming, but, uh, at the same time that there's an exhilaration, uh, there's motivation

and, you know, I wake up in the morning, you know, at each wedding and I just say to myself,

you know, today I'm going to make a picture and whether I do or not, um, you know, always

remains to be seen.

But it.

Certainly not for lack of effort.

Um, but yeah, you mentioned all these weddings that I do.

Yeah.

It's, it's important, I think.

And, um, you know, all of the notoriety that comes along with some of the things that I've

accomplished, you know, quite frankly, it's, it's freaking worthless unless I'm working

and what I'm shooting and all the accolades in the world mean nothing unless you're keeping

busy because you know, those accolades, they're going to go away.

So, you know, my clients are more important to me than those accolades.

Sure.

Well, how do you fit in, uh, workshops, you know, and keep a full schedule of weddings?

Is that, is that challenging or do you do workshops in the, you know, weeknights or

weekdays?

Well, um, next, uh, for example, it's interesting you say that next, uh, let's see, April, my,

my April, my spring bootcamp is, is sold out.

My summer bootcamp is sold out and, uh, my fall bootcamp is, is half sold.

But next, uh,

Monday night is our opening reception and we have, we start our bootcamp, uh, for the

spring, April 20th, 21st and the half day on the 22nd.

Um, I have a wedding this Saturday and a wedding this Sunday.

Uh, we'll have the opening reception Monday night and Tuesday, Wednesday, part of Thursday

we'll do the bootcamp.

I'll rest up on Friday, shoot my wedding next Saturday on the 24th.

But how do I do it?

Um, the answer is a little simpler than people might imagine.

I have great help.

I have a wonderful,

uh, studio manager.

Her name is Noel Andrews, uh, a lover to death.

She is, she is invaluable to me.

So really delegation, um, and, and trust, um, years ago before the age of digital for me,

I was a film shooter and I would still shoot my 50 to 60 weddings per year, but then I would

dump the stuff off at the lab.

I would pick it up when it was processed, go through them a little bit, toss out the

outs, so to speak, and edit them down a little bit.

Um,

and then box them up, ship them to the client.

And then I would also be a one man band and do all the album process and do all the customer

service.

And I would do everything.

I did that for, God, no, I did that for eight straight, nine straight years.

And for the past three, four years now, since I opened my studio and since I went digital,

um, I've had a full-time person working for me.

So she does everything.

She does all of my posts.

I don't touch a computer unless it's from my blog images or competition images or any

of that stuff.

So she does everything.

Um, it is great.

She's spectacular.

Uh, you know, I'm not going to, unless you want me to, I'm not going to get into, you

know, my post-production or workflow and like that, but, uh, trusting somebody, uh, to allow

me to do what I do, which is when people say, well, what do you do?

Um, I shoot, I download, I back up and I talk to people.

Uh, you know, in essence, besides being a photographer, I'm a professional asker.

So, you know, I'm a professional asker.

Uh, and that's, that's necessary to make a living in this world.

So customer service to me is every bit as important as the images itself.

I mean, the images are 50%.

You know, I'm just talking about providing a service to clients that are every bit as

important as the image.

Sure.

That's what I do.

And so she frees me up to do all of that stuff.

And, you know, I like to use this expression.

I work hard.

To stay working hard.

Sure.

That's a good way to put it.

Yeah, absolutely.

And in this economy, please, uh, that's, uh, that's crucial.

Well, now, Cliff, have you always been in wedding photography?

I mean, you kind of mentioned that you got started in 89.

What, what, what was it like before that for you?

What was your, well, guys, I've been shooting professionally for 29 years and, um, right

now I'm only 47.

I'll be 48 in, uh, in another month.

I started when I was 19.

I was a, uh, I was in college and I started working because I saw an ad in the paper and

I needed some coin.

I saw an ad in the paper for said award-winning photojournalist.

I'm sorry.

Award-winning newspaper seeks photojournalist.

And, um, I got hired cause I had a pulse.

Uh, I was a 19 year old kid, had no experience and they were just looking for a body.

I walked in and I guess I had a pulse.

Um, it worked for a weekly for two years and then the Philadelphia inquire, and I've told

this story a few times to, you know, whenever I do.

Any interviews of this sort, um, so for pretty quickly, uh, in 1984, 85, the Philadelphia

inquire, uh, was really looking for a massive infiltration of photographers to go into the

suburbs to sort of, uh, corner the market and, and, and kind of take circulation and

advertising away from other dailies and weeklies and things of that sort.

So, um, I was one of those people to kind of infiltrate the burbs from a, uh, from a

coverage.

And, uh, I had a very narrow coverage standpoint as a photographer, myself and, and several

others.

Um, and then I, I worked for them and, and, you know, a few years later, you know, I was

working full time for them doing lots of different general assignment stuff, whether it be sports

or, uh, you know, spelunking in, um, central Pennsylvania or, you know, a Villanova basketball

game or just, uh, little sisters of the poor meeting, you know, it really varied.

I shot 6,000 assignments for the Philadelphia inquire.

15 year.

career there and then uh left in 1998 and uh i haven't looked back i've shot about 750 weddings

since i left the philadelphia well now i read something interesting on your on your bio

on your website that uh i wondered if you could comment on it said that you thought that almost

as if you thought wedding photography was was silly when you were doing photojournalism so so

you guys actually read and actually do a little research right that's that's that's more than

something i appreciate that uh and i get caught up with this you know and i think i think the

quote was something to the effect of i thought wedding photography was once a joke there you go

come on and everybody listening to this is a photographer and everyone knows that at one time

people looked at it as a joke and and i was admittingly i was a snotty photojournalist

thinking that um you know what we did as photojournalists was important okay i had no

uh delusions

of grandeur. I wasn't one of these Pulitzer Prize winners like friends of mine. I didn't

travel the globe, although I did my fair share of traveling. I wasn't some of my idols in

photojournalism, that's for sure. I was an average photojournalist. And I used to think

that those that do what we do, that's real wedding photography. Those who can't do what

we do, they shoot weddings. And it was pretty much that simple. It was the bride and groom

staring at the camera under the gazebo or next to the big tree, or two people, four

people, eight people staring at the camera. And there was no artistry, no style, no sense

of skill or composition involved with that work. But man, I was the one that was delusional

because it just wasn't the case. Wedding photography, to me, you want to talk about

the need of a skill set.

I mean, I...

I've done so many different types of photography. You know, I've done everything, even a little

bit, I was going to say everything but architectural, but I've even done some of that. You know,

there's so many different skill sets involved with wedding photography. And I will have

to say that I became a much better photographer once I started shooting weddings after a few

years.

Really? Wow.

Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. There are so many more elements. Listen, as a photojournalist,

when I was a photographer, I was a photographer. I was a photographer. I was a photographer.

I've since been a photographer since science. You know, I've been hooky like a

specific photographer,

Yeah.

... guides me in a particular way.

Yeah.

And it's one of those skillsets that is very wonderful, but it doesn't have those

elements that make it like...

Okay.

Yeah.

There's most of the good things in my work?

and I say, I love I like looking at your photos, the photos you take, the photos that maybe

you like taking photos of, the photos that you are?

I mean, yeah, oh, I will say that-

I think that...

Well, it's beautiful for me.

Yeah.

You know, I'll mention Joe McNally, one of my favorite photojournalists and favorite instructors.

And he's kind of a, I guess you can call him, well, an idol or someone I really, really looked up to.

And he might be one of the, I think he's the world's most versatile photographer.

You know, this is someone, I don't know how he does it, but you want to talk about location lighting.

You know, he's pretty amazing.

But even he doesn't want to shoot weddings.

And that's not for lack of skill, for sure, because he is, he's incredible.

But when it comes to having to be well-rounded as a photographer, you know, I don't know of any area of photography that you need to be that well-rounded.

I mean, there's a portraiture element that I didn't realize that I would need to acquire as a wedding photographer.

You know, I learned.

I learned that some of the traditional elements of wedding photography were beyond my skill set as a photojournalist.

Wow.

And I needed to acquire those.

You know, some of those more, you know, simple elements, you know, they're just not necessary on a daily basis in a newspaper.

Okay.

That makes sense.

You know?

And not to mention the fact that the equipment I have now far surpasses, far surpasses what, you know, what I was working with as a photojournalist.

So, you know.

We can talk about gear later, but man, oh man, the gear that we have now allows us to do things that we never could do before.

That's for sure.

Now, I was going to kind of ask a gear-related question.

I was going to see if you could think of some of the things that you had to add to your collection of gear when you switched gears.

Well, you see, I switched gears more than once.

You know, I went from being a photojournalist to a wedding photographer.

Then I went from being a film shooter to being, you know, a digital photographer.

Sure.

So, you know, we can talk, you know, cameras, cards, and drives.

Or, you know, we can talk bodies and lenses.

Yeah, I guess I'm thinking even like lighting equipment.

Did you find that, you know, you lit differently when you started into wedding photography?

Yeah.

And it was because of wedding photography that, and again, you know, the greats out there, they knew this long before me.

You know, again, the McNamara.

You know, the greats out there, they knew this long before me.

And then there's people like David Hobby, who's amazing.

He's the strobist.

Great site.

You know, Zach Arias, who does some great work with One Light.

Creating texture, dimension, and mood with my artificial light.

Because I was able to learn how to do that pretty well with available light.

But it was something that I needed to really get better at.

You know, taking one single flash.

And, you know, at a reception or in, you know, some crappy light.

And creating texture and dimension mood with just one single speed light.

So that's something that I acquired.

That's something that I needed to, you know, as I say, get in my bag.

Right.

So that was important.

No question about it.

And that's something I teach at the workshop a great deal.

Would you say that you use primarily One Light then?

Yeah, I do.

For my wedding work, absolutely.

That's amazing.

And it's, you know, everything from the formal family photos to the reception itself.

I have my assistant just with, right, she just puts an SB800 on a monopod and I direct her.

Wow.

And that's it.

And so everything that you see that's flash on my blog, it's all One Light.

And what, if you had to just roughly guess, what portion of images that you come out of a wedding with would you say that you introduce artificial light?

I would have to say that that varies from wedding to wedding.

Okay, like location.

There are weddings where I use it seldom.

You know, the old adage, you know, available light.

Well, you know, my flash is available.

Sure.

It's the old, I mean, it's a cliche and it's, you know, I don't even find it funny anymore.

It's just true.

But my friend Mike Corrado, he was the senior product manager with MyCon.

And now he is with, he went back to NPS at MyCon.

This guy really knows his stuff.

And one of his pet peeves, and mine as well, is people and their false bravado about using available light.

Oh, yeah, I don't need a flash.

Oh, yeah, all available light.

What do you think?

Oh, yeah, I shot this.

And when the high ISOs started to come in, you know, oh, yeah, I shot this at, you know, ISO 60 million.

At 1.4, you know, so, and you look at the image and I'm like, you know, it looks it.

You should have brought a light.

Well, and that's what Mike, you know, if you knew how to use a speed light, then it wouldn't look like that.

So my point is, and the point I'm trying to make, which I think is pretty relevant to our discussion and what you guys know best,

is when the quality of light is not available, use the speed light and increase the quality.

Right.

It's not even so much quantity anymore, because with my D3S, what difference does it make?

I can, you know, I've got a, you know, 85 1.4, 28 1.5.

I've got, I've got the lenses in the bag.

I can pump that thing up to 8,000 comfortably.

Wow.

And pull out an image.

But is the quality of light going to be there?

Well, if I find it, sure.

But if I can't find it, I'm going to create it with a speed light.

Right.

That's all there is to it.

And it's being able to produce that quality of light.

And when it's not there, that's what separates, you know, one photographer from the next.

Frankly, it's light.

That composition, of course, and all that kind of great stuff.

But, you know, from when we're talking about lighting, it's about quality of light versus quantity of light.

This is something I harp on extensively in the workshop that I teach.

That's a great perspective to keep as well.

I do have a question related to that, though.

So, because wedding is such a dynamic sort of environment, I mean, granted, there are certain points that you would be super concerned about.

But are you approaching these having thought through all the different, you know, scenes and compositions that you're after and you have a shot list?

Or are you kind of running down?

I can answer that question very simply.

You've heard of the man with the plan, right?

Right.

I'm the man.

No plan.

Okay.

If I go in there with a plan, you know, my entire approach is going to be demolished.

One of the things, one of the people that's helped me most, and I talk about him once in a while, and he even lives in my town.

And he's embarrassed that I'm even going to mention his name.

But his name is Tom Grealish.

He's a Pulitzer Prize winner with the Philadelphia Inquirer.

I think it was 84 or 85 for his.

It's a work, the homeless story that he did in Philadelphia.

And, you know, he won the Pulitzer for feature photography.

And he became the Philadelphia Inquirer magazine's photo editor.

I was preparing to go to Liberia in 1989.

And it was an enterprise piece that I was doing.

It was not a direct assignment for the Philadelphia Inquirer magazine.

But they said, yeah, sure, go ahead and do this.

This sounds great.

And it was a story on Operation Smile.

The long story short.

And I'm prepping to go over there.

And I was a 27-year-old, snotty little kid that didn't know what the hell I was doing.

And I thought I was the sun, the moon, and the stars.

And, you know, the arrogance you can cut with a knife.

I'm going to Liberia, man.

Oh, I'm big and bad.

Well, I'm sitting there and I'm talking to Tom.

And he's trying to get out of me.

You know, he's about to give me several bricks of Kodachrome.

And, you know, he's trying to just ask me some simple questions like, you know, what are your plans?

What are you thinking about doing?

You know.

And he was talking.

He was talking about logistics.

And I started talking pictures with him.

And I said, well, I see, you know, this little girl there.

And, you know, she's smiling.

I was trying to talk about specific images that I was going to create.

And he says to me, stops me cold in my tracks.

And he says, Cliff, what the hell are you doing?

I'm like, well, what do you mean?

You're thinking about pictures before you're, you know, thousands of miles away.

You have no idea what you're going to encounter.

You're thinking about specific images.

How in the world?

How in the world can you think about specific images if you're not in that environment?

Dude, get out of this mindset of creating preconceived notions.

Otherwise, you're not going to be able to create the images when they're in front of you.

That's the exact thought process that I take with every single wedding day.

That's profound.

I clear my mind.

Well, it hit me like a ton of bricks because, first of all, I felt like I was two inches big.

That's first and foremost.

So humiliation works, you know, and I was clearly, you know, just deflated, humiliated.

And I'm thinking to myself, my God, he's right.

He's right.

Take this advice, run with it and run fast.

And it was the most profound advice, the single most profound advice I've ever received in my career.

And instead of thinking to myself, well, for the getting ready shots, I'm going to do this and this.

And then the portraits, I'm going to do this.

I really do my best not to have any clue what I'm going to do on the wedding day.

So my advice to everyone listening out there is go in and be clueless.

And that's the best advice I can give.

That's great advice, actually.

Well, actually, since you're talking about going in with no plan, when you get set up for a wedding day like this,

do you give yourself like several hours beforehand to do scouting as you get there?

No, no scouting.

I don't.

I don't feel that scouting is necessary at all.

I think I think a skilled professional, quite honestly, can assess the situation and, you know, a couple of minutes.

Now, if it was a full blown, you know, commercial shoot and you're going to have time to create, you know,

then I think scouting is absolutely, you know, a wise decision.

But we might not spend more than 10 minutes in a particular location.

Right.

The other thing that I try to tell.

Especially mothers and brides, you know, we'd love you to shoot.

Do you think you can you can visit our location?

You know, it might be 90 minutes away.

And I'm like, oh, no, I'm not going to spend a half day driving to your venue at, you know, two o'clock in the afternoon in December when you're thinking wedding is going to be six o'clock in the evening in June.

Right.

You know, the life is going to be different.

Everything's going to be different.

So to me, everything starts and ends with life.

Right.

OK.

That's it.

There's nothing.

That's there's nothing else more important.

Other than the moment itself.

OK, so that if you're not doing a lot of prepping ahead of time, what are some of the triggers within the environment that, you know, in your mind, you're like, ah, all right, here's a shot or here's here's a backdrop I want to use.

What triggers the little bell?

I hear what you're saying.

And I what I try to explain.

To people in terms of what I do is there's a difference between help.

And again, I have to remember and have to remind people out there that I'm no longer a photojournalist.

You can know my mother used to say you can take the Bronx out of the boy.

I mean, you can take the boy out of the Bronx.

You can't take the Bronx out of the boy.

I'm a native New Yorker.

You can take me out of photojournalism, but you're not going to take the photojournalism out of me.

What I'm trying to say is I like to help.

I'm trying to help set the stage for these moments to take place, but I'm never going to stage the moment.

So when I first walk in and the bride's about to get into her gown and all that kind of good stuff, I very well might say, hey, you know what, guys, I love what you're doing, but can we can we move over here?

Just come, you know, the lights wonderful over here and the gown looks great and this and that and so on and so forth.

And, you know, please continue what you're doing.

And, you know, my whole my whole mindset, my whole physicality changes.

And it's a very soft, you know, try to be, you know, very soft spoken and and just kind of kind of maneuver the situation into better light and then let the moments happen by themselves.

So there's a difference between setting the stage for the moment and staging the moment.

The latter you will never see me do.

So, OK, guys, come over here and pretend you're putting on your dress.

You know, I'm not going to say, OK, get in the mirror again.

I want that.

Mirror shut.

Hold mom.

That necklace lifted a little higher.

That's great.

Hold that right now.

That that can't happen now.

I'm not trying to say to anybody out there that does that, that they're wrong.

I don't care if that's what the client wants.

That's what the client wants.

But for me and, you know, I guess the whole philosophy behind what I do is not to stage the moment.

You know, there's there's a couple of photographers out there.

Who like to say, why wait for the moment when you can make the moment?

Well, my rebuttal to that is it's not my frigging moment.

Right.

You know, it's theirs.

And when it comes down to it, whether it be a getting ready photograph or the couple interacting when I take some time and do the portrait session with bride and groom, or for that matter, later on in the evening when I'm really taking a pure photograph.

Or photojournalism approach.

And it's like a first dance or a parent dance or something like that.

You know, I'm not going to make that moment because it's just not mine.

Well, it's their moment.

And I don't want to, you know, I don't want them 10 years from now saying, honey, when they're looking at their pictures, honey, don't you?

God, I love that picture.

Don't you remember?

That's when Cliff told us to do this.

You know, I want.

I want them to say, that's when you whispered this to me, or that's when my father said this to me, or I remember that's when my grandmother, you know, you know, spit up her dinner.

I mean, you know, whatever, you know, I want the reality of the day in the real moments to be the most prominent, not the moments that I create or, you know, I inflict upon them for that matter.

And what I say to my clients is I'm not the photographer who's going to try to make you who I think you're supposed to be.

Rather, I'm going to try to capture the essence of who you are as a couple, not who I think you are, because I don't know them.

Pretty much the philosophy behind what I try to do.

It's funny to hear you say that, you know, because you don't know these people, but when, you know, looking through your blog and stuff and, you know, just scanning through a couple of these photos of the weddings, you feel like you get a story of how that day went.

And I feel like I know them just from looking at the images.

Well, I mean, that's a tremendous compliment.

I appreciate that.

You know, immensely.

But I think that's, isn't that the essence of good photojournalism?

I mean, that's really all it is.

You know, it's the couples themselves that allow me to create those images.

And what I like to say when I make a, when I capture a good moment, okay, you know, I'll give the client the credit.

Honestly, we're only as good as our clients.

You know, if a client has this great chemistry and this great.

interaction with one another, you know, it's hard to F that up.

You know what I mean?

Sure.

Right.

And that's great advice.

I mean, it's something that I don't, yeah, I don't normally think about, but it's true.

It's like when you get into these amazing moments that are the, you know, the major point of someone's life, it's like, you know, forcing someone to do something different is, is taking them out of that moment.

And you're losing a lot of that, that spontaneity.

You're losing it.

You're losing off.

Authenticity.

Right.

Yeah.

And, and I think people can smell, uh, something that's disingenuous a mile away.

So, you know, why, why bother in my opinion?

And again, it might create a stunning image at times, but, you know, uh, do that during a portrait session.

You know, if you really want to create something or, uh, I do have some clients that, you know, they, they want a little bit of that fashion element.

So, okay, fine.

So we'll, we'll.

We'll stage a little bit more, um, because quite frankly, they're writing the check, you know what I mean?

So, um, I just want to make them happy.

I want to give them what they want.

Um, but I also, you know, in the initial consultation where I think everything takes place, I think the initial consult is so important.

Um, I try to let them know exactly who I am and expectations are learned what they can expect from me, but by the same token, what I expect of them.

Yeah.

I do expect some things from them, like the time to capture the images that I'm trying to capture when, you know, doing a timeline.

Uh, people, um, lots of students ask me, how do you get the time with the couple that you get?

And I say, you know, well, um, you don't ask, you don't get pretty much that simple.

Uh, you know, people that, uh, that shoot, you know, celebrities and things of that sort, that's a different ballgame.

I mean, uh, uh,

I have a good friend.

His name is Matt Mendelsohn who shot for USA today, uh, for many, many years.

He's a tremendous artist and probably as good a writer as he is a photographer, for God's sakes.

But, um, you know, he was talking to me about some of those situations, uh, that he's been in and Joe McNally, the same thing.

They might have three to five minutes to shoot somebody, you know, um, and, and, and that's it.

That's all they're going to get.

Uh, but it's, it's a little bit different for me with my clients because I'm spending it.

An entire day with them.

Uh, and, and, you know, I have to get certain things, uh, from them photographically and I have to get the time to do it.

Otherwise they're setting me up to fail and I won't, I won't let that happen.

So what are some of the things that you make sure that you cover during a consultation?

Um, uh, you know what?

The most important thing, um, I shut up.

Okay.

I asked them, I asked them what they want.

I, and I'll, I'll literally, the first thing I'll,

I'll ask them, um, you know, what do you want?

I'll, I'll just say it just like that.

I'll even gesture.

What do you want?

You know, what type of images, you know, are you looking for?

Is there anything special that you're looking for?

You know, what are your needs?

What are your desires?

And, you know, they're kind of surprised because nobody asks them that.

Usually a photographer starts out and, you know, they're talking about themselves.

Sure.

When a client comes to me.

Um, for the most part, they've learned enough about me to at least come into the studio.

Uh, and, you know, they've seen the work and, uh, here's another little tidbit.

I think your listeners will find pretty funny.

Um, I don't give a rat's ass about awards.

Photographers care about awards.

It's true.

I've got two pieces of crystal sitting on my shelf.

All right.

Next to the grand award, WPPI grand award for photojournalism.

And you know what I have next to it?

I have the 2007, the not best of wedding photography.

It's this little, it's this little play.

And I'm, I'm, I guess I'm making light of it.

I'm sorry.

It's right next to the grand award.

And you know what brides see?

They see the not best of weddings because they don't know what the WPPI grand award is.

And quite frankly, why should they, why should they care?

So the truth is all, you know, all that garbage.

You think they were.

They care about the WPPI anything?

No.

Right.

They care about what are you going to do for me?

Sure.

And that's it.

That's the truth.

I don't blame them.

But I do find it funny what, you know, what photographers covet and what brides covet.

And that would affect your, your shooting too, I imagine.

Interestingly enough, to a, to a point, but not really.

Like, um, I do the CYA shots.

You know what I'm saying?

There's no question about it.

Right.

But to a large extent, anyway, I'm shooting for me.

Okay.

And the byproduct of that is that the client's going to love what I'm doing.

There are certain compulsory elements that I'm going to capture.

All the family pictures and all that kind of stuff.

You know, the bride full length, the bride's, you know, the back of the gown.

And there's, again, there are staples.

There, there are certain elements that I have to get.

Otherwise, I'm not doing my job as a wedding photographer.

But if I'm just shooting for them, I might as well, instead of shooting a camera, I might

as well just put a gun.

I might as well just put a gun to my head and shoot myself.

Because I'm not going to get through 50 something weddings and you're, you know, shooting all

that nonsense.

And how do you challenge yourself then?

Like that many weddings?

Motivation wise?

Yeah.

I mean, well, you, you, you look for something super unique every time or.

The truth is you don't make something that unique every time.

I mean, that's just the truth.

You're shooting for consistency first and foremost.

You're shooting, um, you know, I'm again, light first moments, you know,

with great light, that's a nice photo for me.

Um, but I do approach every single wedding and I say to myself, and I said it earlier,

all right, man, today I'm going to make a picture.

And if I can make one or two images per year for a year that I love, I'm ahead of the game.

That's, that's a pretty good body of work.

If I can make one or two a year and to this day out of, you know, 750 weddings or whatever

it is and all the.

You know, 29 years, um, there's a, there's about, you know, eight or nine images that

I still love and people might say, that's it.

He must suck, but I, I, I try to explain to younger photographers, especially at seminars

at the larger ones that, you know, there's this 500 or a thousand people.

I always ask, you know, how long have, you know, anybody here shooting over 20 years

or 30 years or whatever.

And.

I think the longer you shoot.

The less work that you do, you know, the, the, the less you like, you know what I mean?

And, um, it's harder to please yourself from a photographic standpoint, pleasing myself

with my imagery gets harder and harder and harder.

And the only way around that is to every once in a while, you know, look at the LCD and

say, I made something and I've seen it in my viewfinder, you know, a few times and a

couple of times a year.

And that motivates me that right there is, is, you know, that's the prize.

That's the award.

That's, that's, you know, that's my own little award.

If I didn't get that, uh, you know, I'd be dead artistically.

Well, I hope it continues.

So, so my advice to people out there and, and I've said this at many seminars, my advice

for the younger photographers is to start hating your work sooner and, and you'll probably

improve faster.

You know, the more critical you are of your own work.

You know, the better you're going to get quickly.

That's great.

That's great advice.

I know it's a little ass backwards, but you know what?

Uh, you gotta have a little fun with it.

Um, but you know, motivationally, uh, you know, I'm not going to lie to anybody too.

I'm motivated by a paycheck, you know, on a wedding day, I got a job to do.

And there's days that I get out there, uh, you know, a couple hours in and I realize,

Hey, you know what?

I'm not going to make a great picture for me today.

So.

I'm going to try to make great pictures for my clients.

And it's just as important, frankly.

And I, and that's how you stay consistent.

Bust your butt.

It's just, it's just hard work.

It really is.

Well, you had mentioned, uh, in that last segment there, you know, there are certain

staples that you have that you, that you have to get.

Do you, do you use that same approach when it comes to lighting that there, there are

a couple like go-to tricks that you know work and you use them and pull them out in certain

circumstances?

Well, I really do hope to find.

Different light as much as I can, but go to light.

Yeah, it's, it's backlight.

It's one of the things I'm known for most I'd have to say is my ability to take bad

light and make it good light.

You know, I'm, I'm the photographer who's not afraid to go out at two o'clock in the

afternoon in July and make that light work for me.

You know, I like that light.

I think it creates texture, uh, you know, my words are texture, dimension, and mood.

And I think it creates that, um, I'd rather have really harsh.

Light than really flat light where most photographers they're running for the open shade.

I'm running for that harsh light.

So I'm going to take it and I'm going to, you know, take my subject, uh, and place them

between me and the sun and create stunning imagery with that type of light.

I want that light.

I need that light.

So that's sort of my go-to light, but then there's light that I call anytime light where

I'm trying to find that edge.

That, that.

You know, the light edge, if you will, that, that disparity, that contrast between shadow

and highlight, that's creating this, this magical edge on my subjects.

And when I find that, you know, I'm very pleased with myself and being able to make that happen

in difficult lighting circumstances.

Well, you know, not everyone can do that.

And that's something that I strive for.

Um, because it's not something that, you know, I'm not.

You know, and this is, this is not a disparaging remark.

Uh, that's not something that, you know, the soccer moms can do, you know, I don't, I don't

mean any disrespect whatsoever, but what I mean by that is the person that goes out and

buys a digital camera and they've been in business for one year or two years and, you

know, they don't know how to handle certain lighting conditions.

They can't do what I do with light and that quite honestly, one of the only reasons I'm

still in business.

The differentiation.

Oh, absolutely.

And if you can't differentiate now, uh, you know, you might as well pump gas or lower

your prices.

And then, you know, that's admitting failure.

In terms of lighting, I guess in particular, do you find any extra challenging environments

or, or, you know, you walk into a sanctuary and you say, oh boy, is there anything like

that?

Um, I'll say this in terms of the sanctuary or church or anything of that sort.

Um, now with a D three S in my hand, I, you know, no, uh, you know, uh, a ceremony itself

where I'm not going to, first of all, you're not allowed to use artificial light in most

circumstances at a ceremony.

So I'm not afraid anymore because I, you know, I'm armed with, in my opinion, you know, the

best DS DLS, uh, sorry, best DSLR on the planet.

The D three S allows me and the D three allowed me to even before the D three S, uh, it doesn't

just, and this is, yes, I'm, I'm a Nikon spokesperson, but I really do believe this, um, I'm able

to produce images that I've never made before.

Yes.

But I'm also thinking about images I've never thought about making before.

Okay.

So that's something that, that the technology has allowed me to do, you know, so if I have

to go in and I have to just the other day, literally I pumped it up to, you know, 6,400,

8,000, somewhere in that neighborhood.

I'm using my 7,200.

Uh, you know, the, uh, the VR two and, you know, I'm, I'm working in, in really dark,

crappy conditions.

Now is the quality of that light going to be there in certain situations?

No.

Right.

But those sensors are so sensitive, um, you know, it's, it's not going to look bad at

all.

Uh, what I love to pump a little speed light in there when I can't.

Yeah.

But when you can't, it's sure nice to have the capability of shooting us in those conditions.

Right.

You know?

So, so the answer to your question is, um, there, there's not a whole lot that I'm afraid

of from a lighting standpoint.

That's just, you know, a long, long time of experience and I'm not saying I'm the best

at it.

That's for damn sure.

I'm saying that I'm, I'm, I try to make myself comfortable in those circumstances.

Okay.

And you mentioned asking for time from your clients when you set up a day or, or for this

actual event itself, are you basically saying you, you asked them to block some time where

you can take a stroll in a nearby park or get outside?

Multiple times.

Okay.

I, I, I, the initial consult, I let them know and depending upon the report that I've developed

in the hour, an hour and a half or two hours that I'm meeting with these people after they've

seen my work and they've, you know, sort of communicated to me that that's what they want.

Um, and then we go over the timeline, how old, you know, and, and, and, you know, they

only want to give me 30 minutes or 15 minutes, whatever I'm going to say to them straight

out.

Um, you know, I think I can say this to you guys and I gotta be honest with you.

I can't pull these images out of my, you know, I've got to make them somehow I've got to

make them somewhere.

You like the locations that I take my couples to, um, I need time to create these things.

I can't just do it, you know, off the cuff.

You like this, like this, this one bride a few weeks ago, she emailed me and she pulled

images off, you know, did a little right click job.

I guess the PC.

Oh, not PC.

Yeah.

But, um, she gave a little right click and she stole some images off my blog and emailed

me about a dozen images and she's like, this is sort of what I want.

And I'm like, well, um, so-and-so without mentioning any names, um, these two images

here, these, these were made in the rain.

You don't want rain on your wedding day, you know, this image here, um, this was made at

night.

I mean, I'm happy to go outside at night for you and create this for you.

So that's yeah, no problem.

I can help you with that.

There was another shot of a bride dancing with her father and she's crying and it's,

you know, it's backlit beautifully.

My assistant was just in the right spot.

And I said to her, um, do you want to like, you know, you want to cry on purpose for me?

I mean, what I'm trying to say to you, so-and-so is that most of these images you picked out

are moments.

If your moments are there at your wedding, I'm going to capture them and there's no need

to send me these things.

Right.

So she's picking out emotional moments and quite frankly, that's what's most important

to me anyway.

I'm just sitting there thinking about that.

I'm like, wow.

It's like, yeah.

Can you orchestrate some emotion at my wedding?

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, you know, without getting too into it, there are photographers out there that say,

you know, think about, think about your mother and now think about her, you know, at her

funeral.

I mean, come on.

You know, how far do you have to go?

But you know, before it's, you know, um.

Yeah.

It's perverse almost.

Yeah.

It's just wrong.

So, um, it's not my job to evoke the emotion, not.

That's not what I do.

And if that's what they want, that's not what I'm going to give them and they'll be disappointed.

But I communicate with that to them when I relay my expectations.

Well, another quote that I saw, I wanted something that you, you sort of said in one of your.

Uh-oh.

I've, I've been quoted a few times.

I'm just curious.

Yeah.

There was no four letter words in it.

No, no, no.

This one's not, not bad at all.

But you said that you often get asked about style, uh, especially from your students.

Ah, okay.

Okay.

What kind of, uh.

I think I know where you're going.

What kind of advice do you generally give guys that are just, you know, drooling at

your, at looking at your images and say, man, if I get a, I could have a style like lift,

how do you respond to that typically?

Three words I'll give them.

Know thy gear.

Okay.

There's, there's, there's too much.

Um, there's too much homogenization out there right now and all the work, you know, a lot

of the work is looking the same.

There's, there's a few standouts out there for sure.

And I applaud, you know, the, the difference makers out there, but the only way, and I

mean, the only way to go after a style of your own is, is to have the technical elements

completely, 100% instinctive innate.

You have to draw upon it.

You have to draw upon it without thinking.

And that's the only way if, if, if you're thinking about, um, you know, shutter speeds,

F stops, ISOs, focus, any of that nonsense, right?

Then you're not thinking about composition.

You're not thinking about anything else, but those elements and your mind can't focus on

what's most important, which is creating.

So you can't have a style.

Sorry.

You can't have a style.

If you're thinking about the technical aspects, it's not there.

That makes a lot of sense.

There's no chance.

You have no opportunities, no chance whatsoever.

Now, um, I think today the learning curve has decreased tremendously from when I was

a film shooter and that's how I cut my teeth and that's how most old timers like me cut

their teeth.

Uh, I'm pretty old school and you know, I'm only 47.

And when I tell people that I've been in the business professionally for 29 years, you

know, they're expecting me to show up, you know, with a cane, you know, but, uh, so,

you know, I started pretty young.

Um, but, but, but the, the, the sad fact remains, it probably took me at least 10 years to begin

to develop style.

I mean that.

Wow.

Um, and, and, and I would say when I changed and went into wedding photography, you know,

it probably took me five years just to start to develop a style in wedding photography,

just to begin to develop one.

So when people are out there right now, and this is, this is no offense to those that

are, you know, shooting two or three years because I think there's amazing talent out

there.

I truly do.

Um, but to think that you, you know, you've got it and there's no need to learn and improve

and all that.

Um, man, they're dead wrong.

Uh, I'd love to take Jay Maisel's workshop.

I want to go to workshop.

I mean, I want to be challenged.

I want to get better.

You know, there's times that, um, I'm feeling and, and I'm going to be very, very revealing

here and tell people that I get stuck creatively.

I feel like, uh, there's times that, you know, that I'm, I'm, I've hit a creative plateau

and I need to break through it.

And so, you know, the only thing for me to do to break through it is to, you know, um,

talk to colleagues and, and, you know, see how they're feeling.

And, uh, one of my favorite people in the world and one of my favorite photographers

is, I don't know if you know who Parker Pfister is.

Um, but you know, Parker and I are very close and, and Marcus Bell over in Australia and,

you know, we talk and we, we talk about, you know, what we can do to, to keep getting better.

So, you know, just because, you know, you've been doing it for a while, it doesn't mean

you don't get stuck because you do.

Anything I can do to get better?

Well, someone has.

Uh, some advice for me, I'll listen to her, whether they've been shooting for one year,

you know, 31 and, um, you know, you can always get better.

I, I truly, truly mean that it's not lip service and I'm, I'm hoping this year I'm going to

get better.

Otherwise why bother?

You know, it's just a paycheck.

Exactly.

That's where the consistency comes in.

You can only hope to be consistent.

That's the key.

And anybody that's listening, that is the key.

Hmm.

That's a great advice, Cliff.

And actually, as we wrap up here, speaking of getting better, tell our listeners about

some of the workshops that you have.

Now, I know that you said that the spring and the summer one is sold out.

Yeah.

Spring and summer.

And I've, you know, last year I did five of them.

I did, uh, one in, uh, in Canada as well.

But, um, this year I'm only doing three.

I'm, I'm going to do, and if, if I get overwhelmed, I'll open one up in August.

But right now, uh, the April one sold out, July one is sold out.

And, um, the, uh, November one is sold out.

The, uh, November one is probably about half full already.

It's a lighting and skillset bootcamp.

Uh, it's a very unique program that literally does empower photographers with the skills

necessary to go after a style of their own.

They will leave here a better photographer.

Uh, it's designed to, well, first of all, we have a phenomenal model ratio.

We have, uh, four or five couples to, uh, 17 students, which is a great ratio.

Um, they're fed, uh, catered breakfast and lunch all three days.

We charter a bus, a real bus to take us around to various locations in Philadelphia.

We choose the best locations possible.

We shoot for about five hours in the afternoon.

Uh, the, the mornings are reserved for, you know, classroom work and fundamentals and skills.

And really drive these, you know, these, these concepts into the student before they go outside and start using it.

We really want them to apply those skills in really difficult conditions.

Um, each day is, you know, about 12 hours.

The third day is a half day.

Uh, but each morning, uh, we have a review of the images that we shot before, uh, the day before.

And it's a heavy critique.

And, um, I'm, I'm, I'm gentle, but I'm direct with the critiques.

And, um, what happens here, we have a workshop, uh, designed for the long term.

The second, uh, first of all, the first day is designed to learn how to, to use difficult, difficult, harsh light.

Any lighting condition that you have to face, we're going to teach you that day.

The second day is designed to learn how to use that speed light in, in many different ways.

Whether it be from, uh, the formal family photos, how I approach them.

Or the various elements at a reception to capture those elements with one single speed light.

And so it's drilled into their heads.

It is very much a boot camp.

That's why it's called a boot camp.

It's exhausting.

It's exhilarating.

And people leave here better.

And I'm really proud of it because it's, uh, you know, there's a photo.net review people can look at.

And it's pretty straightforward.

Uh, and I'm, I'm pretty proud of the, uh, of the workshop.

So if someone was interested in maybe attending your fall workshop, they can do that?

They can sign up online?

They can just call the studio.

Right.

Call my, call Noel, my studio manager.

Um, and they can, uh, they can sign up.

And they can call me directly.

People are kind of surprised.

I answer the phone.

You know?

Well, I'm, they say, oh, you answered.

Well, what else am I going to do?

So that's what I do.

Uh, I shoot.

I download.

I back up.

I talk to people.

And that's my job.

That's great.

Well, it's been a real treat just, uh, just spending a little bit of time with you here tonight, Cliff.

And I'm sure that, uh, if the workshop is any reflection of, of our little chat, that your students really get a lot out of it.

So really appreciate you spending some time with us today.

Thanks for having me.

You guys are great.

I appreciate it very much.

And, uh, thanks for asking.

Well, that's all we have for this episode of light source, the brightest podcast on the internet.

Be sure to check out the show notes for this episode and all the other light source episodes at the website, studio lighting.net.

And you can also send us an email comment at studio lighting at gmail.com.

When you can send us comments, questions, or just images that you'd like us to see.

And if you really want to get involved with some of the other listeners to the show, you can head over to the light source flicker group at www dot flicker.com slash groups slash light source.

You can post your images and get feedback on your photography as well as seeing the things that we're taking pictures of.

And as always, if you missed any of these links, our quick outro here, you can find all of that and more at www dot studio lighting.net.

Till next time.

Bye bye.

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