Best of GenderTalk #577: The Old Women's Project & Chris Abani

Good evening. I'm Nancy Mangiarone. I'm Gordine McKenzie. And this is Gender Talk.

Hello again. This is Gender Talk, worldwide radio that talks about transgenderism in the first person.

Each week, we bring you news, information, and exciting new voices that challenge our traditional view of gender and much more.

Tonight, we'll meet the award-winning feminist media producer.

And former talk radio host, Jennifer Abad, whose most recent work deals with old women activists.

We'll talk with her about that and about her video on the vision of Audre Lorde and much more.

Then we'll speak with Chris Abani, an award-winning author and professor who was imprisoned, tortured, and sentenced to death for his literary activities.

We'll talk with him about the subversive human and compassion of his newest poetry collection, Hands Washing Water.

And because it's a lot like washing our brain.

We'll also have the Twisted Nasty News, Raving Raven, Gender News, Question of the Week, and much more, tonight on Gender Talk.

Hello, everybody. It's another Saturday night here at WMBR in Cambridge, which means it's time for Gender Talk.

And I'm your host, Nancy Mangiarone. And co-hosting with me is...

Gordine McKenzie.

The fabulous Gordine McKenzie.

Hi.

With us by telephone...

Hello.

It's Mr. Hal Fuller. How are you doing tonight, Hal?

Doing good, good, good.

How are you doing, Ms. Julie McKenzie?

I'm doing great, Nancy. Thank you.

Are you?

Yeah.

I'm doing lousy. This is rotten weather, and it just kills my neck.

I have to say, I can't stand this rainy stuff, even though it's stopped raining now.

Yeah, but you can feel it in those bones, huh?

It's like a lead collar around my neck.

Yeah, I could do without it. That would be just fine.

Anyway, hey, everybody. But we do have a good show for you tonight.

Let's see. First of all, we have somebody we didn't tell you about yet.

We're going to have... His name is John... What's his last name? McKenzie?

Our first...

Not ready.

Yeah, no.

John Kimball of the North Shore Music Theater.

That's right.

We're going to talk with John about the production that's now showing there, or playing there, I should say, Jesus Christ Superstar.

And, you know, we got an email from one of the folks associated with the theater saying,

Hey, why don't you have...

Somebody on from this production. It's very interesting.

We have a gay man, you know, playing the lead role, and our producer's gay and all of that.

Our director.

So, anyway, we talked with John Kimball about that.

If you haven't seen Jesus Christ Superstar, what great music.

Of course, it's Andrew Lloyd Webber, and just a great piece of work.

One of my favorite stage pieces.

Have you seen it before, Nancy?

I have seen it.

I actually saw it produced in a production at a school someplace in Rhode Island.

I don't remember what school.

My nephew was playing one of the nasty folks in there.

I forget what exactly the role was, but it was great.

I was really impressed at how well the production held up when done by an amateur group, and it was really terrific.

I thoroughly enjoyed it.

So, it may have just been because my nephew was in it, but I love the music.

We have the CDs at home.

That's right.

And just, it's one of my...

It's probably my favorite show tunes out there.

Show tunes.

What do you think of it, Hal?

Have you seen Jesus Christ Superstar?

Oh, yes.

I've seen it.

I think it's excellent.

And there's a production of it out on DVD that's...

I forget who's starring as JC, but it's quite good.

Is that right?

Yep.

Oh, cool.

Oh, this will be my first viewing then.

Yeah.

And so, now, also on the show tonight, we're going to have...

Raven.

Oh, yeah.

I forgot to introduce Raven.

Raven.

Forgot me so soon.

Sorry, Raven.

I've forgotten you two out of the last three weeks.

What does that mean, Nancy?

I don't know.

That her memory is slipping.

I think I'm detaching myself already.

I think this is our second to last show, folks.

One more program and that'll be it for Gender Talk.

And we're thinking that Gender Talk isn't going to come back.

We're thinking that if we do come back, it'll be something a little different.

So, we're thinking that this is going to be it for Gender Talk next week.

So, we are inviting you, though.

If you're out there listening, if you're in the Boston area, or if you're somebody who's

been on the show before, and we'd love for you to come down to the station during the

show next week, Saturday, September 30th, between 8 and 10 p.m., we'll be here in the

studio, and we'd love to have you drop by.

There might even be cake and cookies and things.

It could be.

There could be.

I've been told it's somebody's birthday, and that we might have...

Who would that be, Nancy?

...birthday-appropriate stuff.

I think you were the one who told me.

I told you it was your birthday?

Yeah.

So we might have some, you know, a little dessert.

Would that be a little hint for them to bring presents?

Absolutely not.

Presents will not be accepted.

They should bring their presents, though.

They should...

There you go.

That would be the presents, huh?

Exactly.

So make yourself present.

Come on down.

Join us on microphone.

Say hi if you've been a long-time listener.

Tell the folks.

And it'd be very interesting to have a little bit of our listenership here with us to bid

adieu.

To our 12-year program.

Or former guests.

We welcome former guests as well.

Absolutely.

If you've been wondering what we look like all this time, this is your last shot.

Then you haven't been to the website.

Well, some of us have changed.

And Hal, we're going to try and get you into the studio next week if we can.

I'm going to try real hard.

Can we do it?

Okay, great.

Yeah.

So we'll come by and get you for that.

But our guests tonight, our real guests tonight, Gordine, Jennifer Abad.

Am I pronouncing her name?

Gordine?

I believe so.

And we watched a couple of videos she produced.

Terrific one about Audre Lorde.

Oh, yeah.

I really enjoyed.

I'm actually not too familiar with Audre Lorde, so it was a very nice introduction to her

vision and her work.

I really appreciate it.

Well, many people know Audre Lorde by Master's Tools, Will Not Dismantle the Master's House.

Of course.

I think we all know the quote.

Yes.

She's a visionary, brilliant woman.

But Audre Lorde was a phenomenal poet as well.

Oh, yeah.

And her poetry was dedicated.

And her poetry was dedicated to change and trying to think of ways to create cultural

change and empowerment.

So Jennifer made a video about Audre Lorde that's quite good.

And she also made one about some activist folks who call themselves Old Women.

It's the Old Women's Project.

The Old Women's Project.

And very interesting, very feisty, very interesting, cool folks doing activism and objecting to

all of the atheism out there.

And what it means is...

What it means is...

Pissed Off Old Women Engaged in Revolution.

That's right.

That's what it means.

The Old Women's Project.

Oh.

That's where it came from.

And then we're going to meet a poet and a...

Fiction writer, too.

And a professor, right?

Yes, and fiction writer.

Chris Abani, who was imprisoned, tortured, and sentenced to death.

In Nigeria.

So, fascinating.

So, somebody who really has a serious stake in his work.

And he has a new work that's coming out next year that I think has a transgender character

in it as well.

Cool.

Is he a gay man or is he a straight man?

Do you know?

We'll ask Chris.

We can ask him?

Okay.

Because in Nigeria, of course, being gay would have been a reason for imprisonment in and

of itself.

So, anyway, interesting show tonight.

Interesting guests.

Now, we have some sad news for you.

We heard again from...

Oops, I'm being handed a note.

Oh.

Aha.

Pronounced Abid.

Or Abid.

Wait a minute.

Come back.

Come back in here.

Where did it go?

Abid?

Abid.

All right.

Our pronunciation is corrected.

It's Jennifer Abid.

Jennifer Abid.

Yeah.

So, there you go.

And that's a thank you to Keith.

Yes.

Thank you.

Who came in here with an orange note.

Indispensable.

One of the respected folks around here at the station, I guess.

So, anyway, we have some bad news for you from Susie and...

Jackie.

We got an email.

We told you, I think, a couple of weeks ago.

That they had good news that they had someone in the UK who was going to treat Jackie with

hormones.

If you recall, they were on the show back in December.

Jackie was, at that time, 11, I think, or 12 years old, I forget.

And they had come to this country seeking somebody who would give her testosterone blockers

so that she wouldn't have to go through a male puberty and then go through a reversal

of that process.

Afterwards, it doesn't make any sense for young kids who know themselves to be women

to have to go through a male puberty or for those who know themselves to be men to have

to go through a female puberty.

It just doesn't make sense.

I knew before puberty.

I wish I could have stopped it.

And so, here we have a mother who's very sympathetic, both parents, very sympathetic to their child

and trying to get care for her, for Jackie.

And they had written us a few weeks ago saying, in fact, exactly a month ago, exactly a month

before we got this letter.

Saying, good news, we found somebody, a woman doctor here in UK who will treat Jackie and

give her the hormones she needs.

Well, we got a letter that the offer has been reversed.

The doctor is very sorry but cannot proceed without the support of a mental health team.

And due to the current UK guidelines, the local team are not willing to support early

intervention with blockers.

So, this doctor will not be able to prescribe the hormone blockers.

Susie writes that they are understandably devastated by this turnaround and they will

now be making plans to come back to the United States.

And Jackie, of course, is feeling very badly that it's costing them a lot of money, that

her needs are costing her family a lot of money.

And the whole thing, Susie writes, has been a nightmare.

So sorry.

So sad.

So sorry.

Because the only places then are, that we know of, are Holland and the US.

Where you can get hormone blockers.

Yeah.

People are doing that.

There may be other places.

Yeah.

And certainly if you know about them, let us know.

Well, certainly it's been a long time mission of Gender Talk to educate around these

issues and to help further the consensus that, in fact, hormone treatments are legitimate

and necessary for a lot of transgender folks.

And these are also reversible in terms of adolescents, too.

Yeah.

And that was one of the concerns that many of the professionals had raised.

Yeah.

Exactly.

So, you know, it's a sad thing.

I mean, we've made a lot of progress.

But apparently a little bit less than we thought we had made right there.

So...

Oh, very sad.

Our hearts go out to Susie and Jackie.

And I imagine the female doctor that had said she was sympathetic and wanted to do it received

a lot of pressure and a lot of resistance, it sounds like.

Or else just a complete lack of support and, you know, was perhaps under threat of losing

her profession.

Possibility.

So, you know, I'm sure she wanted to do the right thing.

Yeah.

But she was unable to.

And so that's unfortunate.

So our best wishes go out.

Now, we need to get moving along.

But do we want to mention the visitor that we had in our house the last few days?

Oh, we do.

That's true.

We've been hanging out with a cowgirl for...

That's right.

Let's see.

Since what?

Last Monday, she came to the university where I teach.

And we're talking about Linda Brown, who is a longtime ranching woman.

Linda, in the early 70s, went out on a...

Yeah.

...chuck wagon where women weren't allowed and cooked for five cowboys.

Right.

That was very...

Yeah.

She was telling us that story.

And, yeah, was out there for an entire month.

And she made more money than the cowboys did at that point.

So if you're wondering what...

We've talked about this a little bit.

If you're wondering what Gordene McKenzie's going to be doing after Gender Talk, she's

going to be writing about ranching women in the Southwest.

That's right.

And she cooked beans.

She cooked beans.

That's what she said.

We said, what do you feed these folks?

And she said, well, beans.

Lots of beans.

Yeah.

Lots of beans she gave them.

And potatoes.

Beans and potatoes.

So great stuff.

Anyway, we had a lovely visit.

And she's a very strong woman.

Yeah.

And that's an interesting thing about ranching women, that you develop a phenomenal

strength.

You have to in order to survive out there.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So anyway, there's some fascinating stuff that's going to be coming your way from Ms.

McKenzie.

First, though, we've got Hal Fuller.

Hey.

Hi.

I'm here with her.

Welcome to the Man Ahead.

The gender talk.

Twisted, nasty news for the next to last time.

That's right.

Oh, how sad.

Okay.

We can't keep doing that all show.

No, we can't.

We cannot.

Okay.

Get it out of the way now.

Photo finish.

Craig Moore, 28, was driving in Manchester, England, when he was flashed by a speed camera.

Do the things along the road that are recording people speeding.

Sure.

Afraid he would get a speeding ticket and he would push him over the limit of points on his license

and trigger a driving ban would lose his job.

He returned with explosive and destroyed the camera in an attempt to destroy the evidence.

But because he didn't wreck the recording device in the base,

the camera got evidence of him setting up the charge.

Oh, my.

Which cost him over 11,000 pounds.

He set up the charge on camera?

He set up the charge on camera.

Oh, my.

And he, for some reason, thought the recording device would be in the camera itself.

Right.

Brilliant.

And so he was sentenced to four months in jail and wasn't banned from driving.

The camera was just a warning device rather than to hand out citations.

You probably haven't noticed this because you don't do much driving,

but increasingly they're sticking these things on the side of the road that tell you what speed you're driving.

Yeah.

I find them very effective.

I find that when that thing, and it flashes if you're going too fast.

And it just sits there and tells you your speed if you go in the right speed.

It keeps you aware.

I think they're useful.

Yeah, it gives you feedback.

Yeah, it's not hugely judgmental.

It just lets you know.

And it's a slightly negative feedback because the flashing is a little bit irritating.

The solid numbers aren't.

And so it seems like an ideal solution.

They should just line the roads with those things.

Well, the problem is that some of the machines are set up to actual issue citations.

Oh.

They'll take the license number and suddenly you'll get a summons or something in the mail.

I had no idea.

No idea.

It's been done.

Well, then the explosives become understandable.

That's like Big Brother out there watching you.

Just kidding.

No.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

I don't know.

You know, I guess I think the real solution is for us to automate our roadways, automate our cars.

We've got enough intelligence in the electronics now, so we should be able to make that automatic.

Or figure out a way to use public transportation and drive less and save the environment more.

Well, that's a better solution.

Yeah.

Okay.

From the Transportation Security Administration, their recent ban on carry-on liquids has been instituted recently since an alleged plot to blow up jetliners, etc., etc.

Gels and ointments apparently do not apply to sex quantities of personal, small quantities of personal lubricant.

Where's your money?

If you can take, you can take the KY.

Why?

Are you serious?

On the plane with you?

On the plane with you.

You can take small amounts of personal lubricant.

Wow.

So you can't take hand lotion, so I'm baffled.

Well, hand lotion is kind of the, we're getting really nitty-gritty here on how these things are used.

But basically, KY, which is specifically designed as a personal lubricant, more often than not for sexual activity.

Apparently has been okayed.

I don't get that at all.

I don't either.

I mean, that's good, but I don't get it at all.

Why?

Because they're letting that and not anything else?

Yeah, why that?

Like water?

And not, you know, any kind of hand cream or, you know?

Well, for one thing, there's absolutely no chance that you could get that stuff to explode.

No, but you could put something else in a KY container.

Hey, I'm just reporting.

I don't know.

Yeah.

That's all right, and I'm just commenting.

I don't know either.

That's interesting.

Very interesting.

Yeah, that's a twisted, nasty, weird one.

From Colombia, their exports of hormiga culanga, quote-unquote, big-butt ant queens,

are down this year due to a harsh winter and aggressive lizards and birds,

causing steep prices for chocolate-dipped ants and ant bait sauces and spreads.

Ant bait sauces and spreads.

Those poor ants.

What are we going to eat, Mackenzie?

What are we going to bring to the next party we go to?

Oh, Nancy.

I guess peanut butter, like normal people do.

Raven, what's that?

Do you like the ants, Raven?

Well, I was reading that there's a chemical cocktail that's turning Argentina ants against each other.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh.

There's an aggressive form of ant, and so they're trying to use chemical scents

so they get the other ants to tear them apart.

Oh, that's lovely.

Isn't technology wonderful?

No.

Okay.

Let's see.

Chocolate-dipped ants.

The problem with technology is the way it gets used.

Technology itself isn't bad, but boy.

There's a place in New York City where you could enjoy virtually any delicacy,

such as scorpion, cricket, tarantula, and maggot.

Al, I think I'm noticing a theme here.

No, no, no, no.

We're going to get off that one real quick.

Okay.

From chasing a mule deer with a helicopter, which is really silly and really cruel.

And why are they doing that?

Yeah, it's really cruel.

Might seem less than sporting.

It's also a violation of federal law.

Go ahead.

A South Dakota man was sentenced Wednesday to two years of probation for chopper chasing a herd in Nebraska National Forest.

Too often what they do is they hunt from the air.

Oh, that's really hard.

You call that hunting?

That's not hunting.

Oh, yeah.

That's like a really hard target there, folks.

Yeah.

Especially if you're moving at exactly the same speed.

You're essentially stationary relative to the deer.

So they're terrorizing that mule deer and they're trying to kill it from the air?

Hunting is supposed to be about...

No, they're just terrorizing it.

They're just having fun.

Hunting is supposed to be about using your wits and using skill, not using machinery.

You know, it's not supposed to be about overwintering.

It's supposed to be about overwhelming your opposition with machinery.

It's supposed to be about using as little technology as possible and as much of your wit and skill as possible so that your prey has a chance.

I mean, it's not hunting if your prey doesn't have a chance.

Then it's just shooting ducks in a barrel.

Hey, and if you're out of ideas this summer for parties, from Walpole, Mass., two concerned citizens hosted a pump-out party with wine and cheese to encourage neighbors to...

...keep their septic systems in good order.

Oh, oh.

First of all, it's not summer anymore.

It's fall.

Oh, okay.

Not yet.

Not officially.

Isn't it?

I thought that...

You could still do it.

It's still warm.

Oh, wait.

It is.

It's the 23rd today.

Did the equinox come and go?

We missed it.

Where was I?

The equinox had come and gone.

We were entertaining.

Oh.

So, a pump-out party, is that it?

A pump-out party.

Yeah, well.

It is fall.

Of course, when the host allowed their tank to be publicly cleaned as a demonstration, the eating and drinking tend to stop rather suddenly.

I would think so.

Time to leave now, dear.

Joseph Butts is in jail in...

Joseph Butts?

In jail in Franklin County, Missouri, the results of being caught with 338 pounds of marijuana in a traffic stop.

But according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, he informed the arresting officer,

that hassling him would be a hate crime because he was a special courier transporting religious instruments

between member monasteries of the Church of the Cognizant, which uses marijuana as a sacrament.

Did that fly?

Yeah, it did.

And if you believe that one, I'll tell you another one.

So he didn't get away with it, I guess.

Uh, they weren't buying it, no.

Garnet and I were eating lunch yesterday at Atomic Cafe in Beverly,

and there was a young fellow working there who tried to...

He convinced me that ginger ale is just made from Sprite with a little bit of Coca-Cola thrown in.

Yeah, he did.

Because they don't carry ginger ale, so he's like,

oh, you can make it out of Sprite with just a little bit.

You can just mix it up, yeah.

I said, sorry, no sale.

Yeah, nice analogies.

A drunk Chinese tourist bit a panda at the Beijing Zoo after the animal attacked him

when he jumped into the enclosure and tried to hug it.

I can understand the panda biting him.

Yeah.

The panda then had drunk four pitchers of beer, that significant amount of beer, folks.

Yeah.

At a restaurant before stumbling to the zoo,

stomping off of the pen holding a sleeping six-month-old, six-year-old panda,

jumped in, tried to hug him.

The panda bit him, and he bit him back.

Leave those animals alone.

What I want to know is, did he stop off to pet the rattlesnakes on his way out of the zoo?

No, I think he was escorted.

He was escorted quickly from that point.

By the way, the panda suffered no injury from the bite.

From the bite?

Oh, good.

Even though we know human bite is among the worst.

Yeah, the panda skin is a lot thicker than our teeth.

There you go.

Maybe that person should be the one that's in the cage.

The panda should be allowed to be free.

See the geek.

Military coup leaders in Thailand often called the land of smiles.

Did you know that?

Apparently didn't want to ruin the image,

so they're ordering Thai soldiers to smile.

Ordering them?

This is post-coup?

Ordering them to smile.

There was a coup in Thailand.

I wonder what that's doing for the SRS business there.

I don't know.

The military has taken over in Thailand, yeah.

I mean, it's such an industry that it would be rough to cut it off.

Yeah, one would think.

It's up there with the money talks?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, one would think that they would.

They would continue the practice to have the income.

But you never know.

Okay, from San Diego,

a man suspected of bumbling an August bank robbery

while outfitted in a Ronald Reagan mask and cape was arrested.

During the robbery at the Bank of America,

the mass robber stumbled to the ground after the gun got tangled up in his cape

and his getaway vehicle got boxed in by delivery trucks,

forcing him to inch backward and forward to patch his way out.

Oh.

Sort of drawing attention to himself.

Just a little.

Yeah, just a little.

From Madrid, Spain, the world's first ban on overly thin models

at a top-level fashion show in Madrid.

Yay.

No, it's in Australia.

Yeah, the story I meant to cover, but didn't get to earlier.

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

He's caused outrage among modeling agencies

and raised the prospect of restrictions on other venues.

Wonderful.

Yeah.

Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if we...

Showed real people?

Yeah, if we actually idolized women,

who actually looked like real women,

or not like they were starved.

Oh, I don't think we should idolize them at all.

Well, exactly.

Shouldn't be idolized.

It'd be nice.

Can you conceive of a culture...

I can conceive of a culture where we weren't inundated from birth

with images of women's body parts.

Can you imagine that?

I can.

Where our sexuality wasn't about lusting after women's bodies,

but rather was a natural thing that who's...

whose communion we found with a partner who might be male or female.

That's right.

How much time we got?

One more, two more?

Minus three minutes.

Say one or two more.

Okay.

From Aiken, South Carolina.

As if talking on a cell phone wasn't distraction enough,

police in Aiken, South Carolina busted a man

for what you might call DWP,

which is driving with porn.

Officer said,

Tracy Pope had an X-rated DVD playing in an in-car video system.

Playing video while he's driving.

He was playing porn videos while he was driving.

Brilliant.

Absolutely brilliant.

It was only a matter of time.

Yeah.

The charges he faces include felony disseminating or promoting obscenity.

That's because authorities said a kid might have looked into the car

and spotted the porno on the video screen.

I'm sorry.

That one's lame.

Endangerment, maybe.

Reckless endangerment, yes.

But that's a little bit...

That's a better reach.

Busting him is probably fine.

They'd need a better charge.

Yeah.

From...

And we'll make this the last one.

Okay.

It's a sweet one.

You'll appreciate it.

It's very romantic.

From Yulianovsk, Russia.

And the Russians...

It's romantic already.

Sorry.

Workers in that town received unusual order from the area's governor.

Go home to your loved ones.

Relax in that nature.

Take its course.

It was the most direct attempt yet to reverse the country's downward population trend.

So the Telegraph of London said that Russian officials have been coming up with ways

to help reverse what President Vladimir Putin calls the country's biggest threat.

So they're suggesting that people go home in the afternoon and have a nice schtong.

So they're not having enough babies born?

Is that what it is?

That's what it is.

Oh, darn.

Heaven forbid we not overpopulate the world like crazy.

Well, there are areas where there aren't as many people, and there are areas where there are too many people.

It's just the imbalance.

Well, we have, you know, planes and trains and cars and boats.

We can move people around.

Wait a minute.

That's scary.

Isn't that what the U.S. does?

Moves people around?

Yeah.

I don't know.

Anyway.

They pay for Viagra.

Let nature take its course.

Yeah, I know.

Yeah.

Well, they do a lot of insane things.

I knew that would get you going.

So I guess...

I guess that's it for this edition of the Gender Talk Twisted Nasty News.

Take only if directed, and one more to go.

All right.

Okay, I'm not going to do it anymore.

Thank you, Hal.

I think that's enough.

Well, everybody's heard about the bird.

And now it's time for Raving Raven.

That's right.

How are you doing tonight, Raven?

Oh, Nancy.

I'm flapping around here as you continue.

Oh, Nancy.

Well, you know, I'm pretty flappy.

You're flapping.

What's up with that?

Yeah.

I've been a little wet today, but a little wet of wing.

But other than that, I'm doing pretty darn good.

Well, good.

I'm glad you're hanging in there.

Wet bird never flies at night.

Well, sometimes I do, Hal.

Oh, was that you going by, Les?

Okay.

Yeah, that was me.

That was me whipping by.

Anyway, you know, sometimes I just don't understand these studies that they do.

And I wonder about the conditions that they're doing them.

I wonder about those poor animals that are in the studies.

There's a new study that just came out that says rats, like humans,

contemplate problems by carefully weighing the costs and benefits of a situation

before making decisions.

And this is a new study on why star rats, a rodent developed for research.

That sends them a couple of notches up the evolutionary chain by my standards.

And what they tend to do.

What they tend to do is they tend to take these poor little rats and they run them through

all kinds of mazes and they hide all kinds of treats for them.

And then they have to make decisions as to whether or not they're going to go and they're

going to get the easy treat or they're going to go through all these mazes to get a little

better treat.

And they're usually sugar pellets.

There was an older study where they found that rats and mice could influence the behavior

of human beings by refusing to eat the cheese.

So.

Depends on your perspective.

It does, doesn't it?

Well, but it just kind of surprises me, you know, that these poor rats are bred their

whole life in these laboratories and then they just run them through the maze and then

they go, oh, rats like humans make decisions.

What did they think?

Yeah, big surprise.

Look at look at how we're stereotyped, Nancy.

We got we got a lot of work to do here.

I think so.

Well, on another note.

A dog in India has taken up yoga.

A three year old German shepherd has reportedly taken up yoga in India.

And if trick, which is the name of the dog, practices traditional exercises under the

watchful eyes of his trainer.

And he said that he was very weak when he was born.

And so they took special care of him.

And then he became very strong after his yoga lessons.

He started imitating me.

Two years ago, said he's human and now sits beside me when I perform yoga.

He follows my asanas and including my breathing.

And I found that he wanted to do yoga.

Then I started training him.

Now, both of us do yoga together every morning.

I love it.

And it's also reported that that little dog helps in household chores, is a vegetarian

and loves to eat ripe papayas and cucumbers.

And they asked him if he'd teach yoga to other dogs.

And he said he hadn't thought about it yet.

Wait a minute.

Oh, you mean to ask the guy if he...

That human.

Oh, okay.

That human.

I just didn't ask the dog.

The dog has not yet made it up to talk.

Now notice they wouldn't ask the dog to teach yoga, even though the dog learned on its own.

And there's a little Jack Russell dog that has been riding a horse.

And it jumps on the back of a...

A small Shetland pony.

And it trots around in England.

Yeah, I think we've all seen, you know, videos, stuff like that.

Yeah, just takes a little bit of a ride.

Yep.

And they have found some 50 new species in Indonesia reefs, including walking sharks.

And these walking sharks are slender-bodied sharks that walk with their fins along the coral reefs.

No kidding.

Yeah, they do.

Cool.

And they found a number of new species.

And they're walking upright on those fins all the time.

They discovered those in the 1930 Max Flesher cartoons.

They did.

Were they walking on their fins?

Right.

Doing a little ba-ba-ba dance, yeah.

Yeah.

And then my all-time favorite story sent to me by Brenna.

And you can actually watch this story because we're going to post it.

A link to it.

We'll post the link.

There was an abandoned kitten by the name of Cassie.

And this happened in Ohio.

And it happened a few years ago.

But I just ran across it.

And the little abandoned kitten was dumped.

And when the people found it, they thought it might have been a rat because it was so small.

And they found that that little kitten got adopted by a crow.

Your kitten.

A crow adopted.

Adopted a kitten.

Adopted the kitten.

And it started to take food that it would get out of the lawn.

And it would feed the little kitten through its beak.

And they started hanging out together from dusk to dawn.

And they took walks together.

They walked right next to each other.

And their humans say they make a beautiful pair.

And said, I think they'll always be best friends.

Yeah, actually, I went and looked at that.

And it's amazing.

Can you believe it, Nancy?

It's amazing to see a crow and a kitten.

And they actually play.

And the kitty, like, jumps on the crow and stuff.

Yeah, they roll around.

And then they walk.

And then they groom.

Yeah.

They hang out.

Ah!

That's it for the bird with the word.

All right.

Well, thank you, Raven.

That's a great one.

I love that a lot.

Another bonding.

Another animal bonding experience.

And that it is.

Ah!

All right.

It's time now for the Gender Talk Gender News.

And what have we got tonight?

Boy, we've got a bunch of stuff.

First of all, we have some good news from Latvia.

The Latvian parliament has banned discrimination of homosexual employees.

This is pretty cool from Baltic country.

After lengthy deliberations, this is according to what?

The Baltic Times.

After lengthy deliberations, the Latvian parliament passed amendments to the labor law

banning discrimination of employees on the grounds of their sexual orientation.

Of course, it doesn't include gender identity and expression yet.

But, you know, it's a step in the right direction.

And it's always nice to see steps in the right direction,

even if they aren't steps that explicitly help you in particular.

But it's always a good thing.

Oh, great, great news.

Yeah.

There's a new study that's been released.

It's that finds that women and minorities are hurt by media consolidation

and that media consolidation cuts out women and minority television broadcast station owners,

according to this report.

And they found that fewer than 5% of all broadcast stations were owned by women,

even though women constitute 51% of the U.S. population.

Fewer than 5%?

Mm-hmm.

And minorities own just over 3%.

33% of all stations, but constitute 33% of the U.S. population.

And so as more and more televisions and news, other forms of news begin to consolidate

and other kinds of media consolidate, more and more women and minorities are getting knocked out.

And Kim Gandy of the National Organization of Women said,

there are so few women's voices on broadcast television,

and part of the absence of women's perspective stems from the absence of women owners.

And certainly the same applies to minority owners.

And there'll be some people who would say, well, now, you know, we can get our news from the Internet and stuff like that.

But you've got to remember that the people who are able to get all their news from the Internet

are people who have the money.

So that there's a class differentiation there in terms of the news.

So what you're saying, then, is that people who are economically disadvantaged

are forced to get propaganda in place of news.

Even if those of us who are more well-off are able to get our news online.

Well, isn't that some concern with the UPN network, which may disappear with the new CW network?

UPN has been carrying very black-friendly programming for a long time.

Oh, okay. I wasn't aware of that in my ignorance.

And so, yeah, they've been bought out by somebody or other, right?

CW, whoever the hell they are.

So when they get gobbled up...

Who knows?

What's the programming going to be like?

And one of the concerns is that it's making women and it's making persons of color

and different ethnicities even more invisible than they already are.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Okay, so that media consolidation, bad thing for gender reasons.

The Center for Disease Control, in stories that came out this week,

Center for Disease Control Atlanta is now backing HIV testing for everyone

between the ages of 13 and 65.

They're recommending routine testing for the AIDS virus for all folks between those ages,

saying that an HIV test should be as common as a cholesterol check.

How about that? That certainly makes a lot of sense.

I think that's interesting.

However, I'm wondering why they would stop at 64,

because they're finding that one of the fastest-growing rates of AIDS that's occurring

is between senior citizens.

No kidding.

And I'm sure that there's senior citizens that are older that may benefit from that.

So you're...

So you're saying seniors have one of the fastest-growing rates?

Seniors are, yes. They have found that seniors are a population that it really, you know...

No, they probably don't value seniors as much.

Well, and we'll talk about that a little bit more later when we get Jennifer on.

I suspect we will.

Well, one small step for that is any time that you have blood drawn,

they could run a test for HIV.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, it's not expensive anymore, and it should be done.

Some good news from Florida.

The killer of a trans woman, William McHenry,

was sentenced to life in prison this week for the stabbing death of Rache McCauley.

Is that the first time?

That's the first I've ever heard of,

of someone being sentenced to life for murdering a trans person.

The family of the transsexual woman, and this is by 365gay.com news,

and it's in Largo, Florida.

The family of a transsexual woman murdered in 2003 say,

they can finally rest easily with the sentencing of the man who killed her.

McCauley was in the process of transitioning

and worked, dressed as a male during the day

when she worked as a male secretary at a Clearwater Hospital,

and in the evening she was dressing as a woman.

This is, that's a process that most of us who transition,

or a lot of us who transition go through.

At some point, you know, in your transition,

you're sort of in this middle ground where you haven't transitioned perhaps at work yet,

but you're trying to acclimate to living in your preferred gender outside of work,

and that's what this person was doing when she was murdered.

So, good news from Florida, some progress there.

Well, that's encouraging.

We should know on Monday the fate of three men

that were arrested in connection with a series of beatings

after a gay pride festival in Balboa Park,

which prosecutors said were hate crimes,

and they pleaded guilty.

I used to hang out in Balboa Park.

Did you?

Yeah, this is in the valley, right?

Yep.

Yeah.

And pleaded guilty to...

I used to roller skate, or roller blade.

No, I used to roller skate.

That was back before they had roller blades.

So it's just...

Or before I had them anyway.

Was it the steel skates?

No, it wasn't steel skates.

It was sneakers skates that a friend of mine gave me.

Oh, okay. Interesting.

They were kind of forerunners of...

Yeah, Balboa was a nice park.

I liked it.

It was a nice big park with a big skate path around it.

Well, it was after Pride,

and the...

The three men, and also a juvenile,

went out with a baseball bat and a knife

and began attacking people.

And even though they pleaded guilty,

one agreed to an eight-year prison sentence,

and another one was on parole

for a domestic violence conviction.

Oh, my.

And the teenage boy that was involved in the attacks

also pleaded guilty,

and he's scheduled to be sentenced

on October 4th.

And one of the six men that were attacked that night,

the most severely injured victim,

underwent facial reconstructive surgery

and was just recently released from the hospital.

And this happened, you know, at the end of July.

So...

God.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's amazing the dimensions of hate.

And all those folks out...

Those self-righteous folks out there

who are decrying the so-called homosexual lifestyle,

are fueling this kind of hate

that causes people to behave like this.

And, you know, anytime anybody says anything

in opposition to folks being gay, lesbian, or transgender,

and doesn't in the same breath

argue for their safety,

then they are fueling this violence,

and they should bear some of that responsibility.

Well, I know walking that block from Central Square to Man Ray,

I was looking over my back,

afraid of people that were suddenly going to...

To act out their homophobia.

Really?

In Cambridge there?

Yeah.

Let's see.

A report reported on in the Boston Globe,

a story by Reuters, by Maggie Fox of Reuters,

reports that women are being filtered out

of high-level science, math, and engineering jobs

in the United States,

and there's no good reason for it,

according to a National Academies report

released this past week.

A committee of specialists looked at some commonly-subscribed,

suspected reasons,

biological differences in ability,

hormonal influences,

child-rearing demands,

and differences in ambition,

and found no good explanation

for why women are being locked out.

Of course, you always have people like Lawrence Summers,

the former president of Harvard,

who argue that women are, in fact, less able.

This study refuting that argument thoroughly,

but apparently it's about documenting

the gender bias in academia.

Yeah, it's really scary.

And there are other studies that have uncovered

other universities that use more of a covert technique,

or not so overt,

but really discourage young female scientists

from working with older men

in terms of their mentors or even collaboration.

They refuse to work with them,

and we've reported on some of those before.

The report was compiled by

all the national academies,

the National Academy of Sciences,

National Academy of Engineering,

and the Institute of Medicine.

These are the institutions that advise the federal government.

So this is a very serious study.

And a quote from the president

of the University of Miami

and head of the committee that wrote the report,

Donna Shalala, said,

quote,

We found no significant biological differences

between men and women in science, engineering, and mathematics

that could account for the lower representation

of women in academic faculty

and scientific research.

And the study also reported

that there was a significant difference in pay

between men and women in academia.

Oh, yeah.

And that's something that's been known for a long time.

That's ridiculous,

because if we look back to many, many years ago,

that was being challenged,

and we're kind of turning the clock back.

Yeah, yeah.

And you'd think academia of all places

would not be a bastion of bigotry,

but apparently, or a bastion of bias,

but apparently it still is.

If you look at the leadership in most institutions,

I don't think that you're going to find

that most of the leadership are women.

No, certainly not.

But MIT has a woman president now,

and I'm hoping that she will be able to make some progress

against the institutionalized sexism

or the rampant sexism at MIT.

Good luck to you, Susan Hockfield.

And I hope I got your last name right.

One last story.

Another good story from Alaska.

In Alaska,

the state high court has ruled

that the state's proposed rules on benefits

for same-sex couples are too stringent.

They're too restrictive,

according to the state high court.

Judge Stephanie Joannidis

also found the state's view

of an Alaska Supreme Court decision

on the types of benefits to be offered too narrow.

Hearings on the proposed regulation

will be held in Juneau and Anchorage.

So,

the Alaska court has ruled

that the proposed benefits for same-sex couples

are too narrow.

So, you know,

marriage is the one way to guarantee equality.

If you recall,

a long time ago,

a famous civil rights ruling ruled

that separate is never equal.

Oh, we know that.

Separate cannot be equal,

and so having a separate institution

for gay and lesbian couples

and trans couples.

And that isn't equal.

Is not equal to marriage.

No, it isn't.

And never will be.

But, anyway.

That'll do it for the Gender Talk Gender News.

And now,

it's time for the question of the week.

With our own, our very own,

Gordine McKenzie.

And this question comes from Adam.

Adam says,

How is a totally non-out teenager in high school?

Does one,

does one begin a physical and social transition

to another gender?

Are there any special age-related concerns

or problems that I should expect to face

with school administration?

How might my transition vary

from the transition of adults?

Oh, McKenzie, you picked a tough one.

Of course I did.

Wow.

And your answer?

Well, I think one of the first things that I do

is I'd ask Adam

if he,

if he's out to his parents.

And I think before you think about the transition

in high school,

what kind of support

do you have from your family,

if any?

Who do you have

that is supportive

towards you?

And that brings up a good,

a good idea,

which is,

I would say,

laying the groundwork for your transition,

number one,

is

you need to get the adults

in the school

behind you.

And the way to do that

is to have,

if you're assuming your parents are behind you,

then you need your parents

to get the school behind you.

Your parents need to get the principal

and the teachers

behind you

so that you have the support

of the authorities

because school is an authoritarian place

unless you're at a very unusual school.

It's an authoritarian place

and you need

the authorities there

to be on your side,

to be supporting

your transition.

And that's something your parents

need to do for you

because the authorities

need to know

that they're behind you.

So,

we're assuming

that your parents,

if your parents aren't behind you,

then I wouldn't recommend

you try to transition

without your parents behind you

while you're still in high school.

Well, I think that begs

an interesting question.

What's that?

Because if someone really needs

to transition

and their situation

with their parents,

I mean,

you're in the point

of legal guardians

and age

and all kinds of things like that.

But if your parents

are your legal guardians

and they're not behind you

Exactly.

in that transition,

I would say wait a few years

until you're 21.

I mean,

that's what I did.

I mean,

I waited a lot more

than a few years.

But I knew

when I was at that age

that sooner or later

I was going to transition.

Well, that was going to

be my suggestion,

which is if you can wait

and it's a hard thing to do,

if you can wait

until you get to college,

you're going to find

a much more receptive atmosphere.

What about the whole issue

of going through puberty

like we were talking about earlier?

Well, there's the whole

medical issue.

If you can,

but chances are

by the time you're in high school

you've already gone

through puberty.

Right, but if you can

kind of forestall it a little.

If you can forestall

your puberty medically,

then that's a good idea.

That, you should have

your parents

and a doctor behind you.

So you need,

the number one thing

about transitioning

is to build

a support network.

You probably need

a therapist.

I mean,

you certainly need

a therapist,

I should say.

And we're not saying

all transgender people

need therapists.

No,

but you need,

what you need,

I treated,

I considered my therapist

to be my consultant,

my social consultant.

Because a therapist

is somebody who knows

about social interactions

and they're expert at that.

And so,

a therapist can consult with you

and advise you

on what steps to take

with the people around you.

And for that,

you need a therapist

or a helping professional

who's had experience

with transgender people before.

If you can't find one,

then you need someone

who has experience.

And if that means

communicating over the internet

with someone with experience,

then you've got to do that.

But it really makes

a big difference

to have access

to someone with experience.

So having your parents behind you

and having them advocate

with the school officials

on your behalf.

Okay.

And then having somebody

with experience

so now Gordine mentions PFLAG,

the Parents and Friends

and Family of Lesbians and Gays.

This is an organization

of people who aren't necessarily

lesbian, gay or trans themselves,

but they have a very,

they are a very supportive organization

and they do have some expertise.

They have some people who are,

the chances are

that they have people

who know about transgender issues.

And so if you're having trouble

finding the kind of support you need,

then PFLAG might be a good source

and you can find them online

at pflag.org.

And they might,

they have guidelines.

I'm sure that they have

some kind of guidelines

that they can use to advise you.

Yes.

As a high schooler,

unfortunately,

you are not master

of your own destiny.

You have to have adults

who are behind you.

And so you need to encourage

the support of adults

and really have a team of adults

who are going to stand behind you

and help you in this transition.

I certainly support you transitioning

but what you don't want to do,

there are some people

who try to do it

without the support of their parents

at an early age

and they end up losing their families.

And it can end up,

it can cost you your life.

You can end up

having to do survival work.

You can end up

in a very bad situation

and it can cost you your life,

certainly cost you

a lot of your life.

And so you really want to

have people who are working with you

and,

you may have to make compromises.

I'm not arguing

that you compromise your integrity

but sometimes you have to compromise

in terms of what you're able to do

just as all of us have to live

with the resources that we have

and we have to compromise

our preferences.

We'd all rather be driving Mercedes

and watching big screen TVs at home.

We'd all like to have

all those good things

but we all have to compromise

our desires and our needs

every day.

And so you're going to have,

you will have to make,

you may have to make some compromises

and compromising in order to,

you compromise on some things

in order to get other things.

You decide what's important

and you make trade-offs

with the people around you.

And so you have to negotiate

in good faith

and you have to be an adult,

you have to be intelligent,

you have to be smart

in making the best way

you can for yourself

and working with them

and working with people around you

cooperatively

to get the best possible outcome

for yourself.

I think television and Mercedes

are luxuries

and some of this is a necessity

for some folks.

That's right.

But perhaps there are some parts of it

that could be done without

for a while.

If you're in high school,

it's only a few more years

before you'll be able

to go out on your own.

And so if you have to put

some things off,

you figure out which things

you need to put off.

When anytime you're not able to do that,

you're negotiating to get something

from the people around you,

it's always good

to know what you can live with

and what you can live without.

And you might ask for everything,

but you might be willing

to compromise on some things

in order to make it easier

for the people you're negotiating with.

The important thing is that

you're certain that you have

a safe environment around you

and secure the support you can.

If it's not with your family,

see if you can find some folks

at PFLAG that can help you out

and give you some kind of advice.

And Adam, we wish you

the very best of luck.

Yeah, but leaving your family

precipitously and going out on your own

is a very, very, very difficult path

that we don't advise.

Absolutely don't advise that.

Get your education.

I don't think Adam was asking to leave.

No, but I'm saying that anyway.

Adam.

So good luck with that.

I hope that helps.

That's what we know to say here.

I didn't transition in high school,

so obviously there are going to be issues

with your peers,

and you're going to have to come out to your peers.

The more confidence you can put forward,

the more you can convey

that you are okay about who you are.

People are going to take your lead

in how they regard you.

And so the more you can project

that what you're doing is healthy

and reasonable,

the more the people around you

will feel that way about it.

So that's the most important thing

in dealing with the adults

and dealing with your peers.

Project that you're going to be reasonable about this,

that you're being cautious about it,

and it'll make it easier for the people around you

to have confidence in you

that you're not doing something self-destructive.

So good luck with that, Adam.

We certainly wish you the very best.

And that does it for our question of the week.

Now, if I can get it together here,

here.

And I'm not entirely certain that I can.

But we have an interview with...

Who's our interview with, Gordine?

John Kimball.

And he's with the North Shore Music Theater.

Yes, he's the producer of the North Shore Theater.

That's right.

And he joined us on Gender Talk

to talk about their latest production,

Jesus Christ Superstar.

And it goes...

Something like this.

Okay, and we have John Kimball joining us.

And John is the theater artistic director

and executive producer of the North Shore Music Theater.

And currently, they are playing the story

of Jesus Christ Superstar.

A great story with great music.

One of my...

I think my favorite opera.

Well, we're actually going to get to see it.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

So we're really excited about it.

Hey, John.

Welcome to Gender Talk.

Thank you so much.

It's a pleasure to be with you.

A pleasure to have you on the show.

Hi, John.

And, John, your cast this time

includes an openly gay actor

and also you have a gay director.

That's correct.

But, you know, that's not so unusual for us.

I know.

We were going to say...

It is musical theater.

And, you know, oddly enough...

I'm shocked.

I'm absolutely shocked.

In the theater,

because of the professional actors union

and the directors and choreographers union,

the idea of gay, straight, and drawing a definition

between the two just really doesn't exist

in our profession anymore.

It's such a sort of mix of all kinds of people

that the whole...

You know, we're far more interested in inclusion

and equality and everybody being treated

with respect and all of that.

So the idea of a gay director,

first of all, it's really not unusual at all.

Most of us are.

And a gay actor, you know,

I'd say 50% of the, if not more,

of the actors in the profession are gay.

And what about being openly gay?

And people attending knowing that the performers are gay?

I don't think...

I mean, the audience may not be aware so much,

but certainly those of us

who work together,

it's not in any way an issue.

Really, quite truly, it's not an issue.

I think the audience is probably completely unaware

or uninterested.

We did start an out night at North Shore Music Theater.

Oh, let's talk about that.

Yeah, I think it was about four years ago.

And it happens on the third night of every...

Third Thursday of every musical that we produce.

And it has been an extraordinary success.

What happens is that the gay community

is made aware that the out night is occurring.

They can either subscribe to that series

or buy single tickets for that night.

They come and they see the show.

Oftentimes they'll dine with us

in our theater restaurant beforehand.

And then after the show,

we have a party up in the restaurant

where the cast and crew join us.

And we have 200 to 300 people there every night

that we do this.

And it has become...

Just a wonderful event.

Everybody really enjoys it.

When is that night for this production

of Jesus Christ Superstar?

Oh, I was afraid you'd ask me that.

It's October 5th, I know,

because we wanted to go

and we're going to be out of town.

And so we're coming earlier, unfortunately.

I would have loved to have made it.

Oh, me too.

Well, listen, promise me that you'll join us

for one of them for Hairspray or for Christmas Carol.

Hairspray?

Yeah, I think you'll be really, really pleased to join us.

And I'd love to introduce you to some people.

All right, well, we'd love to.

We'd be really thrilled.

All right, we'll try to make Hairspray.

But we've been working really hard at the theater

to sort of break down the barriers of,

you know, we're trying to develop our audiences,

all kinds of audiences,

whether they be African-American

or some other kind of ethnicity.

Is that hard on the North Shore?

Well, you'd think it would be,

but it hasn't been.

Maybe I'm just...

I'm just an idiot and don't see it,

but I haven't gotten any kind of pushback from it at all.

So, you know, Massachusetts is a very progressive state.

No, but I mean, is it hard to attract the audience?

I mean, most of the folks around here are pretty fair-minded,

but it also tends to be a very white suburban area.

Well, no, I mean, it's amazing.

Actually, there are more pockets of ethnicity

than you might think.

We're going into Lynn.

We're going into Haverhill.

We're going into...

Oh, wonderful.

You know, we draw from about a 50-mile radius

in terms of our regular audience.

And we...

I've spent my whole life in the theater,

and I believe that the theater is one of the art forms

that can really break down barriers between people

so that they stop looking at each other

as something other than something different.

You know, part of the problem in the world today

is that you can't...

There's a lot of dehumanizing of people

who are unlike yourself.

And if we can just get everybody...

And that's a big message in Jesus Christ Superstar,

which you'll see when you see it,

when you come and see the production.

It is, I think, the main message.

And the show speaks so clearly

to all the things that are happening today

in terms of Abu Ghraib and what happened there,

the Geneva Convention,

the conversations about should we torture people or not,

the whole idea...

The whole idea of dehumanizing people

so that you can torture them.

All that stuff resonates very loudly with this production.

It's not a religious show

so much as it is about the human condition.

And Christ is like any kind of person

who tries to change things,

whether it be Che Guevara or Gandhi or Bill Clinton

or whoever it is.

Any leader who's trying to make a difference,

all of that...

It comes through in this production.

That's why I find it so interesting.

Well, and you can't beat the music.

I mean, it sounds like there's...

So there's a significant political content

that's very relevant to our lives today.

Yeah, and I would...

You know, people who think that,

oh, that's a Christian musical or that's whatever,

it isn't that at all.

No, certainly not.

It really covers the whole spectrum

and it rises above any kind of...

one thing.

Or like it's not secular at all in any way.

Not at...

It's for everyone.

Excellent.

And the other thing,

I truly believe this is one of our finest productions.

I've been there 23 years

and I think this is an extraordinary production.

In some of the literature for the show,

I saw that Mary Magdalene makes an appearance.

Oh, yeah.

And is this in the original play

or is this something that the...

the North Shore Music Theater has put in?

No, she's always been part of the musical.

We have an Asian actress playing the role.

She's extraordinary and she's just...

she's so beautiful and her voice is amazing.

But the people who are looking for it

will see Da Vinci Code sort of references.

That's what I was wondering.

Yeah, we really tried to make this...

I was talking with the director, Robert Johansson,

who's just brilliant,

and he said...

he talks at about 70% biblical,

15% modern,

because it really goes back and forth

from today to biblical times,

and 15% cosmic.

You'll see when you see it,

he's managed to tell a story

that is so familiar to so many people

and surprise us with it.

Wonderful.

Where can people find out more about the production?

I think, you know,

we have a wonderful video clip on our website.

So go to nsmt.org.

Click on the video clip

and you'll see a little bit of the show,

about three minutes of it.

nsmt, as in North Shore Music Theater.

.org.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

And so the show is running now?

Yes, it's running now.

It goes until, let's see,

I think it's the 9th?

Whatever that's, Sunday 5th, 6th, 7th.

I think it's the 8th.

One of the early Sundays.

On October 8th, the Sunday.

Okay.

And the North Shore Music Theater,

is it true that it's a non-profit organization?

Absolutely.

We're completely non-profit.

More than we like.

Well, we can understand that.

We have a marvelous education program

that reaches about 100,000 young people every year.

We develop the art form.

We do an awful lot in terms of developing new musicals.

So, yeah, we are completely non-profit.

And one of the oldest and largest theaters in the country, actually.

John, if there's someone that can't afford to see the production,

do you have anything for people

that can't pay the price of the tickets ever?

We have rush tickets.

We actually contribute something in the neighborhood of 6,000 tickets a year

to various agencies, non-profit groups, whatever.

So we really don't turn anybody.

If anybody wants to see the show,

there are ways for them to get there.

All right.

Well, John Kimball,

thank you so much for being our guest on Gender Talk for your work.

And we're certainly looking forward to seeing it.

I'm sure lots of other folks around the Boston area are as well.

And we'll see you some Thursday.

Yes, that's right.

Yep, yep.

It's been a real pleasure.

And do come to the Out Night.

I think you'll really be pleased.

Oh, well, we're not going to miss it.

We will be there soon.

Definitely will.

Okay.

All righty.

Take care now.

Thanks again.

Thank you.

Okay, bye-bye.

Good night.

All right.

And that was our interview with John Kimball that we recorded earlier today.

And now we have our first guest on the phone.

Well, I'm thrilled to say we have Jennifer Abid joining us tonight.

And Jennifer is an award-winning feminist media producer.

In 2002, she released the video,

The Edge of Each Other's Battles, The Vision of Audre Lorde.

And this was her first feature video.

And just recently, she released the Old Women's Project.

And Jennifer has been a professor, a co-founder and singer

of the New Haven Women's Liberation rock band,

a co-writer of the first feminist radio soap opera.

And she hosted and produced programs on community, public,

and commercial radio in New Haven, Philadelphia, and Boston

for nearly 20 years.

And she was also the first woman...

to host a nightly AM radio talk program, the Jennifer Abid Show.

And she's also the founder of Profile Productions that produces and distributes media

featuring feminist activists and cultural workers, particularly women of color and lesbians.

Boy, you're really a pioneer there, aren't you?

This is awesome.

Yeah, it's true.

My last name, which I know you've had trouble with, as everybody has,

all my life, is Abid.

Abid, forgive me.

It's one of those Ellis Island things.

Oh, is it?

Right.

It was Obadowski.

Like my grandmother's last name actually got mutilated there, too.

What was hers?

We think that it was Gordinsky, and they changed it to Gordon.

Right.

Yeah, well, I think hers was Obadowski, which is, you know, I like Abid.

I like Abid.

I like Abidowski.

I actually thought when I got my Ph.D. I would change it so I'd be Jennifer Abidowski.

Oh, there you go.

You know, but I didn't do it.

Oh, I totally hear you.

Okay, so forgive me, and I will get that right here on in.

Okay, Jennifer.

Now, who am I?

I'm talking, there's Nancy and...

I'm Gordine.

Gordine, okay.

Hi, I'm Nancy.

Hi, Nancy.

And we've also, on the phone, we've got Hal, who does our Twisted Nasty News, and Hal's there out there.

Say hi, Hal.

Hello.

Hi, Hal.

They got our voices there.

All right.

Okay.

What inspired you to do your most recent project, Look Us in the Eye, the old women's project?

Right, Look Us in the Eye, the old women's project.

Well, first of all, let me just say that Look Us in the Eye is from a book that Barbara McDonald wrote

called Look Me in the Eye, and the book was about ageism and activism in the women's movement,

and it's...

It was a really important film.

As a matter of fact, Ms. Magazine claimed it one of the most, one of the important, really

important books of second-wave feminism.

Barbara McDonald is no longer alive.

She died at the age of 86 in 2000.

But Barbara McDonald was partners with Cynthia Rich, and they had this long-term lesbian

relationship for, I think it was about 24 years.

Mm-hmm.

And we were friends, my partner and I, Angela Bowen and I, were friends with Cynthia through

Barbara McDonald.

And I met Barbara McDonald and I met Cynthia through my partner, Angela.

And when Barbara died, she had been always the person to talk about ageism in every situation.

And when she died...

Cynthia, her partner, Cynthia Rich, who lives in San Diego, who was active in the political

community of San Diego, and great friends with two other women in San Diego, they decided

that they really needed to form a group that specifically dealt with the issue of age and

ageism.

They had been activists for a very long time, you know, dealing with anti-war stuff and

feminist stuff.

And...

Poverty stuff and all kinds of stuff from when they were young women.

But they decided that they felt like they were pretty invisible as old women, that the

issue of being old and ageism was really important.

And when Barbara died, they felt as though that they had left the mantle for them to

pick up.

So they decided to form their own group called the Old Women's Project.

So the title of the film, Look Us in the Eye, the Old Women's Project, is a comedy film.

It's a combination of the title from Barbara's book and also the name of the group, which

is the Old Women's Project.

And the reason why I was inspired to do it is because my partner, Angela, who's a professor

at Cal State Long Beach of Women's Studies, invited Cynthia to come and speak to the students

about ageism and activism.

And I went to hear her.

I'm not only a friend, but as a documentarian, I was very interested to see it.

To see it.

I didn't go with the camera or anything.

And I just...

I just went there and watched the students just were fascinated.

They were moved.

They were stimulated.

They had never thought about ageism as an aspect of sexism, first of all.

They never thought about that.

And were really unaware of the concept of ageism and what impact it had on them as

young women and also on the old women that they knew.

And I was just about to turn 60.

I was a couple of years at that time shy of 60.

And I had begun thinking...

I had begun thinking about aging as opposed to ageism.

Well, and that's an important distinction.

Yeah.

And you start...

You actually start the film out with a quote, if I recall, from Barbara McDonald that makes

the distinction between the two.

Would you share that with us?

Well, aging is a natural phenomenon.

It's a biological thing that happens to all of us.

But ageism is oppression.

It's a form of prejudice.

It's a form of stereotype and everything else.

It's like in terms of racism.

Racism and sexism and ageism.

In other words, it's something that happens to us as a result of a natural biological function

that's not very good, that has an economic impact and a social impact.

And it's something we all have to look forward to.

Yeah, right, right, right.

As a matter of fact, one of the women in the film who was...

When she got with the group, she wasn't 60 yet.

And she was a couple of years before 60.

But she was excited.

She was excited to turn 60 because, oh boy, she really was going to be able to deal with ageism.

And what's interesting about it is that, you know, I didn't quite understand what she meant.

But I understand what she meant because early...

I was one of the early...

In the early feminist movement, right?

Early second wave.

Second wave, yeah.

Yeah, sir.

69.

And, you know, at the time, there really wasn't even a word for sexism.

The word sexism didn't exist.

I mean, it's just, you know...

Hard to believe.

But sexism, it didn't exist.

We were in a state of consciousness raising about what that meant and what the impact of what it was on our lives.

The word ageism, I think, has, at this point in our lives, is at that low level of consciousness in this culture.

Certainly, aging, you know, is an economic boon, right?

I mean, there's everything out there, right?

I mean, you know, anti-aging this and anti-aging that and Botox and, you know...

Everything that tells us that the worst thing that you possibly could be is old

and the worst thing that you could possibly do is claim that word old.

You know, older...

Particularly if you're a woman who everything hinges on the way that you look.

And so, yeah, as women age then, they disappear.

I saw that so much with my mom.

I remember going into stores with my mother and, at one point, people began to address...

me instead of her because she was completely invisible.

So that one of the things that we see is we see an invisibility, but we also see, what, patronizing and trivialization of older women, too.

And even people who have the best of intentions because I think you said something very important, Jennifer.

You said that thinking about this and really talking about it and people's awareness of it is really at the...

at a very early stage.

And so, in terms of educating people about it, one of the things that I found even from the Old Women's Project

was just looking at the language that how we talk about older women and why that may not be good.

And some people that might have good intentions, you know, saying, oh, isn't she cute or feisty or, you know, spry,

that all...

Exactly.

All of these terms are not really complementary terms.

Well, they don't allow you to claim the age that you are or to claim the power, the strength, the intelligence, the wisdom for yourself.

I mean, not for other people, necessarily, but, you know, you've been through something and it's worth something.

That's right.

But for men, it's great.

You know, the only thing I have in common with George Bush is that we're the same age.

Oh, I hear you.

All right.

Now, but can you imagine something...

So, you know, what's happening to me now is, you know, I just, like I said, just turned 60,

is people are starting to call me young lady at the age of 60.

Now, I wasn't a young lady when I could have been, which was like 19 or 20.

Sure.

I was a feminist.

I was a young woman, anyhow, and nobody could get away with that word for me.

So, you know, lady, you know, the lady of the house, you know, all that stuff.

But so it's like they're embarrassed to kind of...

They don't respect you for who you are as a person or see you as an equal,

so they have to kind of, like, you know, it's like they're supposed...

I think that they think it's a compliment to call me a young lady.

I think they're...

I think, yeah, I think it's condescending and it's presuming that you're distressed about age

and that you will take it as a compliment.

Exactly.

And so they're negating your whole life experience.

You know, I'm working on a book right now about a cowgirl.

A cowgirl in the Southwest that's 88 years old.

And she is an incredibly powerful woman whose very gaze confronts you.

Yep.

And if someone said to her, young lady, or said something like, young lady,

well, I think with her big Western hat and things, I don't know if they would do that.

But it's a horrible sort of demeaning thing that throws you back on feeling ashamed for being the age that you are.

Right.

And that's very oppressive.

Yeah.

But, you know, like I said in the early days of feminism, you know, the word girl was really negative.

Sure.

I mean, we've changed that.

We reclaim...

Girl power and all that stuff.

Girlfriend.

Right.

Girlfriend.

And so it's really...

And not only that, but it's reflected itself in what we give to girls, what we expect of them,

what we provide for them in terms of their growth and development.

Yes.

The reason why they use the word old is because they want to claim all of the variations of

what that means to be.

In other words, the little old lady stereotype, you know, or whatever stereotypes you have

about old, you know, throw away, whatever they are, the word old has to be redefined

and we have to see and hear from a lot more old women.

I, you know, any, any, any...

If we have...

If we had...

Anyhow, I'm not going to go off on that.

But the thing is, that's what the film tries to do.

Well, and I think, I think that, that it's very successful in the sense of it, it really

gets you to think about the term old.

And something that stuck with me from the film was one of, and these are activist women

that are, you know, have been activists all their lives.

And so they're involved in a lot of different social justice causes.

Right.

And they organize a lot of, a lot of those causes.

Yes.

And one thing that...

Really moved me was when one of the women said that she'd been working with a, a young

man and they had been, you know, doing, doing protests and, and activism.

And she ran into him, I, I think in a coffee shop or something.

Yep.

And they, they had a good conversation.

They were talking.

And then he, when they were leaving, he said to her, you know, I'm so glad that you're

still around.

Something, something like that.

Still, I'm, I'm so glad you're still up and around.

Yeah.

Or, or, I've heard the other thing I hear.

Well, you know...

Well, you're still kicking.

Yeah.

You know, and what does that mean?

Right.

I mean, it's not, you know, if, if, if you kind of put, I don't want to put men in there

in this particular conversation, but there's, you know, if you're talking to somebody like

who, who, you know, is the head of a corporation or a president or, you know, somebody, a professor

or something like that, there's no way that you would do that kind of insult.

Yeah.

But then somehow it's, it's, it's, it's acceptable.

Again, you know, if it, if it's acceptable.

Yeah.

It happens to be a woman.

And it, it's part of the relationship between sexism and ageism, because it, it, it, if,

if women don't have power in this culture, then it's, it, it, they have even, they think

of it, women have even less power when they get older.

And economically, that's, that, that happens to be, you know, unfortunately, too true for

too many of us.

And that's important.

You know, because economically, right, because sexism plays its role from a very young age.

Women are paid less than men.

That means that women are...

Many women are going to, unless, you know, they marry very rich guys, or they're, or,

or, and of course, there are not, now more wealthy women than before.

But in general, and not only in general, I can give you some statistics, but that if

women are the poorest members of our society, along with single women who are children.

Old women are the poorest members of our society, along with many of the single women with the

children.

And we don't get poor.

We're not, we're not poor because, we're poor because we aren't necessarily paid for our,

for our work.

So, so it, it's a very, it has implications.

Well, when you make less money over the course of a lifetime, when you're making three quarters

for the equivalent work, and of course doing lots of unpaid work, over the course of a

lifetime, that really affects your bottom line.

That really affects whether or not you're able to accumulate savings to live on.

Yeah, and that, and that really is, is reflected also in racial stuff, too.

Because, I mean, you know, right, I mean, Latin women.

Um, have, generally have no savings.

Um, and, I mean, there's all these statistics.

You know, black women have more than Latin women.

But, I mean, it's like, it's.

But it's still less than white women.

Yeah.

So you're, you're affected certainly, uh, also based on, on race.

Yeah.

And, and some of those stereotypes.

I would, I was horrified to see some of the ways, and, and you include this in your film,

that, uh, older women are mocked in advertising.

Oh, all over the place.

It was horrible.

There was, uh, I think there was one ad for a bag, a camera bag, where.

It was a, it was a purse.

Yeah.

It's a purse.

And, and the purse was, uh, if you're tired, what is it that you, oh, I can't remember

it myself, but it was about, um.

Seen enough old bags.

And there's a picture of five old women.

Yeah.

Drinking tea and very stereotypical.

It says, try a new face.

And then there is another one where it shows the body.

You have an older woman in, in kind of, uh, uh, purple lingerie and no head or anything

else.

Right.

Just a torso.

And it says, the old bag you'll actually love.

That's right.

And it shows a camera case.

It's like nobody could really love an older woman or an older body.

That is just.

Hideous, I think, is a proper word.

Yeah.

And those were just a few of them, you know.

Yeah.

And even magazines that you.

Expect to be somewhat progressive, like the New Yorker, uh, had, uh, had, uh, covers of

the magazine that were blatantly, uh, sexist and, and ageist.

Yeah.

Well, there is some progress on this.

There was an ad that I saw once featuring an old cowgirl.

In fact, he was talking about, you know, I'll take out insurance because I'll be old someday.

Oh, good.

But not now.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

We're all.

I would.

They have a great T-shirt called, um, and I mean, not.

It's now a T-shirt.

No, they did have a T-shirt.

Yeah, they have a T-shirt.

Now we have an even better looking T-shirt.

It's called, and they have it on.

Old women are your future.

I like that.

We should all wear one.

I love it.

You know, when I wear the T-shirt, I have great conversations with people because there

are people who are aware about how, um, ageist, uh, the society is, how the old people are

thrown away or thrown around.

I had a conversation with a guy when I was in, where was I?

I guess it was.

In San Francisco or something, Oakland or something.

And I went into a store, was wearing my T-shirt, and he was, uh, uh, I think he, you know,

he was from Mexico, and he was saying the thing about this culture, and even in Mexico

that he hates, is the way that people are so disregarded if they're old people.

So, and he loves to have parties.

So he said to me, when I have a party, I always go around into the village where I live and

invite the old people to the party.

Because one of the complaints that I heard, and this is a complaint.

I mean, it's not.

It's not just an analysis, but personally, um, is that they're isolated, that old people

are isolated.

So that sometimes they're the only, they're the oldest person at the party, or they're

invited because they're the oldest person at the party in a very tokenizing way.

You know, the only Native American, the only black person, the only old person, um, that

the, that in our social lives, you know, what, you know, um, what are, what do we have of

a right?

Right.

There's a variety of people with across ages that are coming to the social events that

we have.

Do we go out to, to the movies with old people, just, you know, not necessarily our family

members, but people who, who are, who are friends, people who are our, you know, our

equals, uh, how we enjoy their company.

And I think Barbara McDonnell made the point is that young women are so afraid to be old

that they're on some level afraid to be seen with them.

You know, it seems to be a fundamental characteristic of our Western culture.

Uh, the culture that we displaced on this continent.

The Native American culture was one that, uh, honored its elders and respected the wisdom

of their elders.

And our culture, um, seems to be one that has a kind of inbred self-hatred such that,

um, we, uh, don't respect our elders because they're just us old.

Well, you know, with the point, the point that the women make in the film, which is

quite wonderful, actually, is that, um,

um, you know, you, you want to be respected for who you are as a person.

You don't necessarily get respect just because you're old.

You know, that, that, that doesn't necessarily, uh, offer us equality.

In other words, in other words, if I'm 30, if I'm 35 years old, if I'm 35 years old,

you're going to evaluate me as a human being, right?

You're going to respect me or not respect me in terms of who I am.

And old women, the women in the old woman's project are saying the exact same thing.

Don't put me up on a pedestal, you know, you know,

you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know,

the hello, you know, the old person, maybe, you know, a jerk, you know, I mean,

automatic, you know, that's exactly what, you know, unearned privilege is.

That's what we're talking about in terms of sexism, that all of a sudden, if you know,

if you walk around with a male body, you have unearned privilege.

Well, if you walk around in an old body, you don't, you know, you don't have to have

unearned respect because then once again, if distance, it's, it's dehumanizing.

In other words, it's distancing you from who you are.

So there's a, if the tenant, the issue is,

and you're, you're old, and now who are you as a human being?

But our culture is one that worships youth.

Yes.

That's important, our consumer culture.

That's right, because our capitalist culture uses images of youth to sell product.

Yep.

And so...

Fear of aging.

That's right.

And so we, we end up worshiping youth.

And so we don't, I mean, I would never argue that we should, you know, revere people because

they're elders.

But it would be nice to live in a society.

sufficiently functional that those elders who had accumulated wisdom could then be respected

for that wisdom and could be accorded positions of respect wherein they could put that wisdom

to good use.

Not only respect, but power.

I mean, that, that, that's the piece of it.

You know, that there are the old people in this culture that have power are old men and

they're old white men.

That's right.

And you see them on the front pages of the newspaper every single day.

That's right.

You see them on the television.

You see them all over the place.

They're heads of corporations.

They're heads of, you know, they're presidents.

They're, they're the same age as other old, as old women.

But the level of the, the, the, you know, the, the, the imbalance of power, you know, what

makes, you know, that, that's the piece of it that I just feel like, oh, come on, somebody's

got to really write about this.

Yeah.

Don't do something about this.

You know, I mean, it's just infuriating and it's got to stop.

Well, and increasing awareness, consciousness raising, which certainly...

Certainly your film does, is, is certainly a step in the right direction to, to really

start thinking about how old women in particular are marginalized.

Now, unfortunately, we're, we're almost out of time and I wanted to ask you about a new

project that you're working on.

Oh, well, my new project is called, uh, the Pat, Angela Bowen's Passionate Pursuits.

Oh.

Uh-huh.

And this is the, this is really the, it's a story of, um...

Black woman who, um, um, oh, how do I say this?

She's a professor at a university, um, and she started out, um, in Boston as a, as a

child, um, um, and it's, it's a life of, of art and politics.

She was a classical ballerina at the, uh, and a black classical ballerina at a time

when there was a, uh, an, uh, unwritten but practiced policy on Broadway called No Blacks

on Broadway.

It was before Alvin Ailey?

Um, that's right.

It was before Alvin Ailey.

And, um, although Alvin Ailey, um, she actually became a, uh, not only a, a dancer and eventually

went to Europe because that's where blacks went to, black performers went, um, to Europe

to perform because they didn't, they couldn't perform here, you know, in New York or whatever.

Um, and, um, she, she, she did that.

Um, so it's her, it's her life.

It's her life story, but it's about, it's about passionate politics and being, and claiming

all the pieces of who you are.

Um, um, she's an out lesbian within the academy.

She's black.

Um, um, she was an artist and she's really smart.

Um, and how she's used all of those things over the, over the years and in three different

careers is, is pretty interesting, but it also flow, follows the, the different history,

historical periods of time.

Um, civil rights movement, the black arts movement, the feminist movement, the lesbian

and gay movement, um, and, um, also moving it to women's studies.

So it's a, it's a historic and artistic, um, um, flow of women.

We're certainly, certainly looking forward to seeing that and based on, uh, our experience

in, in looking at the, uh, piece that you did on Audre Lorde, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

Very nice piece of work.

Yeah.

Thank you for that.

Thank you.

Where can people find out more about the projects that you're working on?

Well, it's really simple if they can remember my name, um, cause it's www.jenniferabbott.com.

And spell Abbott if you will.

A-B-O-D.

Great.

Um, but also if they look up Audre Lorde, um, my film is really associated with Audre

Lorde.

It's called, uh, you know, The Edge of Each Other's Battle, The Vision of Audre Lorde,

or Profile Productions.

Um.

But, um, it's www.jenniferabbott.com.

And, you know, it's, it's, uh, stuff about all the films are there and some great t-shirts

are, um, are on the website as well.

Wonderful.

And we'll provide a link so that people can just click on it.

Oh, that would be great.

Folks are online.

Oh, yeah.

We do that for all our guests, Jennifer.

Oh, wow.

That's wonderful.

Yeah.

Jennifer, we appreciate the, the work that you're doing and the dedication that you bring

to your work and, uh, it's, uh, an activist form of video and it's a way that we can

all make change and, and we wish you the very, very best.

Well, I wish you the best, too.

It's not easy to carry on doing radio, uh, a radio program and I'm so delighted that

you're doing radio and that you're doing this, these kinds of conversations.

I, I, are you guys on the web so I can hear your program?

Yes, we are.

www.gendertalk.com.

Okay.

And, uh, we've been doing this for 12 years.

And I believe that you are our last guest.

Okay.

Oh.

You, you and one other guest, we're, we're taking, we're taking off for a while to do

some other projects.

Okay.

Yeah.

We have one more program and we're not gonna have guests.

What was that, Hal?

See, I thought we weren't gonna do that.

Wow.

I know.

I just had to do it.

Well, I know you gotta, I mean, I know you have to move on.

I, I did radio for nearly 20 years.

Yeah.

And it's, it's wonderful.

But, but, you know.

You do other projects.

You gotta, you gotta keep moving on.

That's right.

And Jennifer, you haven't lost a touch.

Thanks so much.

Thanks.

Bye-bye.

Take care.

Bye-bye.

Thank you, Jennifer.

Good night.

All right.

So, Jennifer Abbott, wonderful.

Terrific woman.

She's rocking.

Doing great work.

And did a good job here.

Let me, let's move on and do some announcements because while Gordine gets us our other guest,

I'll tell you about what's coming up.

And let's see, first of all, tomorrow in Boston is a Transgender Day of Remembrance Planning

Meeting.

Tomorrow at 3 p.m.

at AIDS Action Center.

And it's the Transgender Day of Remembrance Plan.

And, you know, it's a big discussion in Boston.

That's on Washington Street.

It's between downtown crossing and border, and, excuse me, the old State House.

It's right across the street from Borders Books.

If you want to come to this meeting, just be there at 3 o'clock.

Buzz the door if it's locked.

Tell the security person you're there for the Trans Day of Remembrance Meeting.

It's on the fifth floor, and he will let you in and let you head on up.

So again, the Transgender Day of Remembrance Planning Meeting for the Boston.

Transgender Day of Remembrance Planning.

meeting for the Boston event. The Transgender Day of Remembrance this year in Boston will

be observed on November 19th. That's a Sunday. And we're also going to be having a Massachusetts

Transgender Political Coalition town hall meeting in the afternoon like we did last

year. It was a very, very successful event. The double event worked really well. Everybody

had a great time. We had a great turnout. And we're looking forward to doing the same

and better this year. So we're going to get a little bit earlier start. Join us there

tomorrow. Let's see, what else have I got here on the calendar? I need to tell you

about, of course, we've told you about the Fantasia Fair that's happening in a few weeks.

We've told you about the International Drag King Extravaganza in Austin. IDKEAustin.com

is a place to go to hear about that. That's happening in October the 19th through the

22nd. In Louisville, Kentucky, October 18th.

The next event is Trans Sisters and Trans Brothers Conference, a conference whose purpose

is to uplift African American trans people, challenge negative stereotypes about us, and

build a unified AA trans community. For more information, go to transfamilydefyinggravity.net

or go to the Gender Talk website, of course, and click on the calendar.

Now, also coming up in October, the Transcending Boundaries and PFLAG's Northeast Regional

Conference, a collaborative conference for bisexual, pansexual, trans, and genderqueer

intersexes.

People, friends, family, partners, and allies of GLBTIQ persons. And this is all happening

in Worcester at the DC Youth Center, October 27th to 29th. For more information, you can

email transcendingboundaries at gmail.com. You can phone Roberta Barry at 603-352-6854.

That's 603-352-6854. Or go to www.transcendingboundaries.org.

And coming up October 13th to 15th on the West Coast Circles, a retreat conference

for all transgender, genderqueer, gender-questioning folks and partners and allies. This is held

at Manzanita Village at Warner Springs, California. And let's see, it's a small gathering, usually

no more than 15 to 25 participants, part conference, part retreat, a time to relax in an informal

atmosphere on the breathtakingly beautiful land at Manzanita Village.

Thank you.

Manzanita Village. For more information, let's see, you can go to manzanitavillage.org

and look for the Circles event. And let's see, I don't think that's on our website yet.

That was one that I received by email. Also, in Massachusetts, as you've probably heard

me mention here on Gender Talk, there is an effort underway to, at some point in the near

future, to introduce legislation.

And we believe that the mid-term election was going to be a clear sign that, you know,

there's nothing in that year that's going to be a clear sign that we're going to be

looking at things differently and that we have great hope that we're going to be ready

to do better.

So, this is a very interesting, interesting and a very important day to us all, to just

bring that in and see what happens.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Dan.

And I congratulate you for your time.

Thank you, Dan.

I appreciate it.

Thank you, Dan.

Thank you, Dave.

And that's what we see in terms of what we see happening at this event.

All right, so now, on to the next story.

and right near the top under the word Massachusetts, it says tell your story.

Click on that and we've got three separate forms there

depending on what kind of a story you have to tell

where you can tell us our story so we can use that

so we can move forward and make Massachusetts one more state

that outlaws discrimination on the basis of gender identity and expression in employment

as well as providing hate crimes coverage.

So please do that.

Massachusetts Transgender Political Coalition will put your story to good use

so you can be completely anonymous or you can have your name used, whichever you prefer.

And I think that does it for our announcements tonight.

If you have an event, we'll have one more week of announcements.

Get it on the Gender Talk calendar and the Gender Talk calendar will continue

so you can find out what's going on by going to gendertalk.com,

clicking on calendar and checking out events on the calendar there.

Please post your events there if you want.

Community of Gender Talk.

Gender Talk visitors and listeners.

And we're going to continue the Gender Talk website.

We'll have weekly updates and content there.

We'll have articles and who knows what's in store.

You'll find out.

It's all going to...

But we certainly are going to continue that

and the Gender Talk calendar will continue.

I will be maintaining it

and I'll be looking for you to keep adding your events

and we'll keep that running.

That does it for our announcements.

And now it's time for our second guest.

So good...

Dean, who is our next guest?

We have Chris...

Wait, what is it?

I'm sorry.

Try it now.

Okay, we have Chris Abani joining us.

And Chris is an award-winning author

and I should say a pretty prolific author.

He has a new book that's going to be released in 2007,

The Virgin of Flames.

He's written Masters of the Board,

Becoming Abigail,

Hands Washing Water,

Dog Woman,

Daphne's Lot,

and Calakuta.

And I may be saying that wrong.

You could correct me there, Chris.

Republic.

And he's also a professor.

Chris was imprisoned, tortured,

and sentenced to death for his literary activities.

And after fleeing Nigeria,

he continued to write poetry and fictions.

Hands Washing Water,

which we're going to be talking about tonight,

is his fourth poetry collection

and is a book of subversive humor,

exile, and ancestry

that expands beyond personal history

to envision a greater compassion.

Abani once said in an interview,

if there is nothing at risk,

it cannot be art.

Welcome to Gender Talk, Chris.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you.

Well, Chris, the book is very profound

and profound and touches,

very deep subjects

from ancestry to all kinds of things

and suffering.

Are you there?

I'm here. I'm sorry.

I apologize.

I'm actually,

this is technology is amazing.

I'm in New York on a street.

Oh, you're on a street in New York.

Okay.

Maybe you can find a quiet corner or something.

I'm doing my best.

All right.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Chris, tell us a little bit

about the inspiration

for Hands Washing Water

and what you're doing there.

Well, basically,

I've written a lot of books

exploring my personal history,

my family's history.

Calicoochie Republic was a book

about my time as a political prisoner.

And Daphne's lot was

a story about my mother

as a white English woman

and sort of raising us.

In Nigeria and meeting my father

in Oxford and dealing with

the African-Nigerian Civil War.

So those two books are largely

about me and my family.

And with Dog Woman

was my first attempt in many ways

as a poet anyway

to try and expand into

a greater imagination

or a greater project

of compassion for our...

And then it was a book

about five women

who had been murdered by men

at different points in history.

But this new book

Hands Washing Water

is something like that

but very different.

I like to think of it

as more intimate,

as more about vulnerability

and my limitation

and my struggle

to find a center of love

and not in a sentimental way

or even in a political way,

which was a lot about that

in Dog Woman,

but simply in this

sort of in a primordial,

almost deep bone way.

That says this is how

we must be in the world

if the world is to survive

and if we are to truly

become human beings.

So that's sort of the inspiration

from the book

and it charts many landscapes

starting from the exterior,

moving through

to my favorite part of the book,

which is a long poem in letters

called Buffalo Women

and ends in shorter,

more personal lyrics.

So it's really, yeah,

it's a very different book

than anything I've done before.

Totally, totally understand you.

And Chris,

you were imprisoned in Nigeria

because of your writing?

Because of my writing, yes.

But you know,

you know, the thing is,

I mean, it was a whole generation of us.

What had happened is that

I'd written my first novel at 16,

Masters of the Board,

which in itself wasn't really a problem

because I wasn't committed.

It was a book about neo-Nazis

taking over Nigeria.

Mm.

The Fourth Reich.

But what happened was

that a general used it

as a blueprint for a coup

and that resulted in my initial arrest.

Oh, my goodness.

Oh.

So it was more an accident in a way.

But once having experience,

I couldn't sort of not get involved.

And when I began to get involved,

as all recent converts do,

you think you're the only one

who thinks this way,

only to find there was

a whole generation

of people who were like,

Oh, my goodness.

of people my age,

mostly college students

who were engaged already

in this civil unrest

and protest against

this military dictatorship in Nigeria

and institutionalized poverty

and violence in a way.

Did you feel any sense

of responsibility for what had happened?

That must have been horrifying

for you to see them

use your work in that way.

No, I didn't initially.

Because, you know,

when the book was written,

there was none of that intent in mind.

And, you know,

knowing the way

the military dictatorships worked,

one doesn't even know

if there really was a coup

or if someone was set up for it.

But, you know,

I write the rights.

I mean, I try to have integrity

and to have a deep sort of sense

of questioning what they were.

But, you know,

once it enters the public imagination,

I have very little control over it

in that sense.

Yeah, I totally hear you

when you say that.

And recently,

you were a writer in residence,

weren't you,

at MIT?

And you've been a writer in residence

in many other universities?

Yes, I was just,

in fact, I just left MIT this weekend.

I was a writer in residence there.

An amazing first time in Boston

and certainly my first time in MIT.

And really,

it's richly rewarding,

richly rewarding.

And what do you do

when you're a writer in residence?

Are you working with young writers?

Yes, well, usually part of it

is a public meeting that I do

that's open to everyone

who lives in the larger community.

And that's usually followed

by a question and answer.

And, you know,

some of the topics in my book

are, to put it mildly,

controversial.

And tell us about those.

Well, like my most,

when we're becoming Abigail,

you have a young 15-year-old girl

who's been abused

and has been trafficked

into sexual slavery.

Yes.

It sort of charts her resistance to it,

but in a very different way

than most books would do

because it writes it almost entirely

from trying to be inside

the young girl's persona

or body.

And it covers a lot of things.

It covers a lot of things,

including how the ways

in which trauma

and the rationalization of trauma

in the larger societies we live in

often, as it's worked out

over the terrain of young women,

often leads to some very difficult,

difficult repercussions

for the young women.

And in this book,

she burns stories of her dead mother

onto her skin

and cuts her skin

in ways as though

she was trying to carve

her own life into it.

Herself into being

on her own body.

And so it was trying to cover

a lot of the difficulties

associated with growing in this way.

And the book has a rather unexpected end

and a choice she makes, I think,

from love,

but which a lot of people

can't seem to see.

And so, you know,

and then a new book

that comes out is about

a man, a biracial man in Los Angeles

who wants to be a woman.

And he's so determined

and deeply,

not even deeply homophobic

as he's deeply

unsure about

what this means

and cannot trace it.

And he backs out

and during these blackouts

he dresses up as the Virgin Mary

and appears in abandoned sites

all over East Los Angeles

prompting massive proclamations

into the city

because people think

it's a real apparition

of the Virgin.

Interesting.

And he's mused

as a transsexual stripper

and it's,

it's,

it's about love

and identity

and the Los Angeles River.

So it's not

the kinds of things

people often expect

from a straight black man.

And the questions,

the questions

and my responses to them,

I'm always very frank

and they're not

several people,

I think, so.

And why do you write

about such subjects then?

This is,

I mean,

this is not what one would expect

from a straight black man.

I want to say

that I'm,

that it's because

I'm trying to,

to tackle subjects

that are often taboo.

But I think that

the truth is

that I'm humbled

by the subjects

that choose me

and that I feel

that oftentimes

these subjects

come to me

and when I write,

I am really

to explore my own becoming,

who I am,

how I became straight

because,

you know,

heterosexuality

is never questioned.

It's such a normative.

And,

and what that means to me

and,

and what it,

what,

what would happen to me

if I were placed in,

in an extreme situation.

So,

I write to find my own humanity

and in the process

I hope I find the humanity

not just of these characters

but,

I'm able to create

a mirror for other people

to find their own humanity

in a non-judgmental way.

And,

and that's probably

why the work is difficult

because it's not spectacle.

It never comes

as a work

from the exterior.

It always comes

at it from the outside.

It always comes

from the interior.

You know,

Sounds like the best possible

reason to be doing it.

Yeah.

It's,

it's,

and I,

you know,

sometimes I rebel

against certain characters

because,

particularly when I was writing

The Virgin of Flames

because I had to face

my own prejudices.

You know,

we live in,

you know,

an intellectual

living in,

in a sort of

context.

It is very easy

to,

to process

with an academic distance

subjects like

homosexuality

or any kind of

otherness

including sexism

and to think

that none of these,

you have none of

the negative strains

of such things

and the truth is

when you begin

to consult

with a book

you run upon it

in a very visceral way

and,

and I'm always shocked

and,

and ashamed sometimes

of my own limitation

and I think it's,

sometimes the books

are too trans,

too transubstantiate

my limitation

into possibility.

You know,

I remember,

and I think it was

my childhood,

I was a very precocious child

and grew up in a very

intellectually privileged home

and read James

when I was very young

and I read Another Country

when I was nine years old

and I remember even then

being completely transfixed

by this book

which,

you know,

partly deals with issues

of homosexuality

from a black man's

point of view

but coming to the end

and thinking

that James is almost

saying,

that this is an incidental

part of the book

but it's about love

and that James is saying

that there's a lot of perversion

in the world

and that is the absence

of love

and not,

not in a sentimental

hallmark kind of,

card kind of way

but in a deep bone

true way

that,

you know,

that used to make us

not at all

to strangers in a storm

hundreds of years ago

and which we've lost,

which we've truly,

truly lost.

That's,

that's very,

very well said

and,

and you talk about

that internal process,

Chris,

and has that been with you

all your life?

You talked about

writing your first novel

when you were 16?

Yes.

Yeah.

I mean,

I wrote my first story

that got published at 10

and it got,

it got into a competition

for 18-year-olds

and won

and was published

in a local paper,

a state paper

and I remember

going to Jim Crow World

and I was,

I'm very,

I'm a very big man

and I was a very plump,

round,

basketball-like child

and,

I mean,

the looks and the faces

of the audience

as they sort of

bounced on the wall

and I'm thinking,

my God,

you know,

words can,

they can transform

and being completely

drawn to that.

Yes.

I'm so,

so closely tied up

with my own

spiritual searches too.

I was raised Catholic.

I went to seminary

to be a priest

and I got picked out

very young

and,

I've been all,

you know,

sort of explored

almost every faith

there is

searching for this

ineffable mess,

trying to,

to make sense of myself

and so I think

all of my work

is about that.

Yeah,

definitely.

So,

do you have advice

for young writers

at all,

Chris,

that are,

that are struggling?

What,

what would you tell them?

The first thing

I would say to anyone

who wants to write

is to read a lot.

I teach writing

and you,

by how many

young people

want to write

but don't want to read.

I totally hear you there,

yeah.

And I would say

read everything.

We should read

cultural theory,

read the Bible,

read the Bhagavad Gita,

read,

read quantum physics,

read novels,

read,

and take the whole world in

and,

and be transformed,

allow it to transform you

and,

and try to live

an engaged life

like knowing

why you buy

the clothes you buy

or the music you listen to

and not,

just buy because,

you know,

just,

just to be in touch

with your own thinking

and then to write,

write from the deepest place,

write,

write as though

no one would ever read

what you were going to write

and,

and then rewrite it

and rewrite it

until,

until it acquires

this exquisite resonance

and then let it out

into the world.

Uh,

that,

that's certainly good advice

because,

uh,

I think reading

and,

uh,

using that as kind of

a launch to,

or an inspiration

to,

to kind of get your own

juices flowing

is,

is absolutely essential

and I,

I like that advice too

in terms of

write like no one's

ever going to read it.

Yeah.

That's great.

And,

uh,

when is the new book

going to be out?

Well,

Hand Wash and Water

is actually out

and available

and,

um,

no bias

but I highly recommend it.

I,

I certainly do too

and,

and it's very beautiful,

uh,

you,

you have that beautiful

poem,

Buffalo Women in there

and I'd ask you

if you might read for us

but you're standing

on the streets of New York

without a book

unfortunately.

No,

I know,

but I would love it

if you would read one of,

any poem that really moved you

because,

you know,

the thing about a book

is it's never done

until someone reads it.

Until someone reads it.

And it changes

with everyone who reads it

and that's what,

that's what's so alchemical

about writing is that

It is alchemical,

isn't it?

Yeah.

And,

and,

and you know,

it's deeply,

deeply humbling

and,

and so privileged

for a writer

to be read

by anyone.

Oh.

I'm always amazed

when people,

when people like my books

it's like,

really?

Yeah.

I,

I want to say that there,

there's one,

there's a poem in there

I don't think we'd have

enough time to read

the whole poem

but something that just,

it was so beautiful

it,

it just,

and,

and there are many parts

of it that,

that were so profound

and so beautiful.

If,

if I may read

one stanza,

would that be just terrible?

No,

that would be perfect.

Okay.

And it's a beautiful poem.

It's Auckland

and it's,

it's the,

one of the opening poems

of the book

and on,

on page seven

if anyone has

a copy out there,

the glass arch

of the Grafton Bridge

curves around

me in light

like the dazzle

of the sun

through a dragonfly's wings

protecting me

from the old

cemetery below

and that brilliance

I think

will light

my way home.

That's beautiful.

Thank you.

Oh, well,

your,

your words are so beautiful

and I wish I had time

to read more of them

and I do read

some of them aloud

because

it is definitely

a poetry that is

in,

in motion

and,

and something that

is very alchemical.

It's a beautiful book

and I,

I love the cover photograph.

Yeah.

Thank you.

It's just wonderful.

Thank you.

Chris,

thank you so much

for being our guest

on Gender Talk

for doing this work.

Do you have a website

that you want to send people to?

Please,

it's www.chrisobarney.com.

Okay,

we'll put a link to it

on our website

to make it easy for people.

and The Virgin of Flames

comes out in January

and everyone should read it.

Everyone should read it.

All right.

All right, great.

Well,

we're definitely looking forward

to,

to doing that

and thank you

for the,

the,

the important work

that you do

and we,

we look forward

to reading a lot more.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Thanks so much

for joining us tonight.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

Good night, Chris.

Okay.

A quick note in passing

is that we've often

made the offer

that if you send

any poetry in to us

that we would publish it

for you,

copyright it for you.

Oh, we did?

Yeah.

Awesome.

On Gender Talk?

Yeah.

Oh,

okay.

We will.

Coming up next,

PJ,

excuse me,

Brother Henry

in for DJ Jamez

and so stay here.

There's going to be

some great music

coming your way

with Brother Henry

and let's see,

come,

and our website,

of course,

is gendertalk.com

where you can listen

to this

and 450 other programs,

lots of them.

That does it

for our program tonight.

We hope you've enjoyed

our show

as much as we've enjoyed

bringing it to you.

On behalf

of

Gordine,

Al Fuller,

Raven,

and myself,

Nancy Nangeroni,

thanks again for listening.

We'll see you again

next Saturday evening

at 8 p.m.

right here

on WMBR

in Cambridge.

And please,

if you feel like

coming in the studio

next week,

your last chance,

come on in.

Come on down.

Come on in.

Okay?

8 to 10 here at WMBR.

You can get here

a little early

so we can meet you

before the show

if you can.

We'll be right down here

in the basement

of Walker Memorial,

142 Memorial Drive.

Go to WMBR.org.

For directions

on how to get here.

So we'll hope to see you

here next Saturday evening.

In the meantime,

remember,

no matter what the occasion,

gender talk

is always appropriate.

Good night, everybody.

Good night.