The Herbal Doula with Marie White – September 3, 2024

Buenas tardes and welcome to the herbal highway. You're listening to 94.1 FM KPFA in Berkeley

on Checheno Ohlone land. I am Rene Camila, your host for today. And today we'll be speaking

with Marie White, author of The Herbal Doula and The Intimate Herbal, about plant medicine

for fertility, community care, and birth work. Marie White is an herbalist with more than

10 years of experience in the field. Her writing has appeared in dozens of publications and

she has collaborated with herbal brands and organizations in the realm of herbal medicine

and wellness. As an organizer and health advocate, Marie has led many workshop series and offered

one-on-one herbal consultations. She has written over 150 herbalism and health-focused pieces

and profiles, collaborating with leaders and organizations across Canada and the U.S. Marie

co-created and delivered online herbal courses that have sold to thousands of students.

Along with teaching in-person workshops on plant medicine and nature-based herbal practices

from a radically inclusive lens. Welcome to The Herbal Highway, Marie. Thank you for joining

us today.

Oh, hi, Rene. Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be joining you today and

to get the chance to connect.

I'm so excited for this conversation. So I always love to start out with the ancestors.

And since your most recent book,

is focused on plant medicine to support pregnancy, and since pregnancy and birth work is ancestral,

I want to begin our conversation by honoring and acknowledging your ancestors. Can you

share a little bit about your roots, where your people are from and how you identify?

I was born and raised in Quebec, Canada. So it's a French speaking part of the country.

So my first language is French. And many of my ancestors, I was born and raised in Quebec,

Canada. So it's a French speaking part of the country. So my first language is French.

I was born and raised in Quebec, Canada. So my first language is French. And many of my

ancestors have been in Quebec for many generations. They originally came from France and have

been settled along the banks of the St. Lawrence River and the St. Lawrence estuary, which

has been a backdrop to many of my life formative years and has been a backdrop to the lives

of my ancestors for many generations as well. So I was born and raised in the city of Montreal,

also known as Chochaegay to the Ghanai-Kehaga, its original stewards. And I feel like I'm

part of a family of three. And so I'm part of a family that's part of a family that's part

feel like i was lucky in quebec because we have quite a strong herbal tradition there um so it's

really something that there were like lots of herb schools and lots of people working with medicinal

herbs which um i don't take that for granted like especially looking back um at the luck of being

raised in such an environment when i was in my early 20s i traveled west to um the west coast

here in british columbia and fell in love with this beautiful valley known as the cowichan valley

on the land of the coatzin um it's the traditional territories of the coast salish people

and i fell in love with the couch and valley um fell in love with its oceans and beaches and

rivers and forests and over the years have become really imprinted um and connected to the all the

plants and ecosystems that grew here and there's also

um the presence of the coast salish people and the couch and tribes they're the biggest um

indigenous like band in all of british columbia are located right here and they're very generous

with their teaching so that's something that has also changed some of my relationship to plants

is getting to learn more from that um indigenous views that they have like shared with me as a guest

here so those were all formative experiences for the last 10 or 11 years i've been making my home

here and i've been making my home here and i've been making my home here and i've been making my

home here in the couch and valley so i am a little bit far from my family and my ancestors

um but i did meet someone who was born and raised here and his entire family is here so

which is now my family now that we're married um so i have this whole other family now and this

whole other group that has more of the history um and more like a family presence on the island

um so that has changed my relationship to this place as well um to have more people who were

born and raised here and who are here and who are here and who are here and who are here and who are

whose parents were here also that's a little bit about my story and growing up in quebec and

learning herbalism as a young you know teenager and young adult um i learned everything in french

so it was quite extensive process of many years to translate everything i had learned into french

into english as i'm sure maybe you've had a similar experience i guess as growing up bilingual

with spanish and english i can relate um it's amazing did you write your books in english or

in french first i know i write in english um i've been living in english for many years though i did

only learn english um as a young adult but he was always around me um one of my relatives in my

family my paternal grandfather was actually english speaking and only spoke a little bit

of french so he was always around that's beautiful

and so for folks who are unfamiliar with you and your work can you tell us a little bit about how

you came to your path how you found your way to the plants and herbal medicine

i grew up with a father who was very much um tuned into nature and even though we had a house

like pretty much downtown um downtown montreal we had um relatively like sizable yard and we

grew a lot of our own like vegetables and herbs and we had a lot of our own like vegetables and

we had many many fruit trees and we had a small herb garden um i mostly remember us growing

mint and oregano i think are the two that come to mind um so very you know simple like kitchen

herbalism we didn't call it that back then it was just growing culinary herbs but looking back i can

make those connections and i feel very much like i was put on the herb path um because i just kept

meeting people who invited me to like be on their path and i was like i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do

this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this

herbal gardens and meeting um people who invited me to like learn about medicinal herbs with them

um definitely by total chance because i wasn't really looking for it though i always had a

curiosity um and i've always loved you know flowers and gardens and um i had also been

seeking remedies that i could use because i was born just like a sensitive person and my body is

very sensitive to a lot of things that a lot of other people who are less sensitive don't

don't get affected by um but i get affected by a lot of things and i'm very sensitive to a lot of

things and i'm very sensitive to a lot of other people who are less sensitive to a lot of other

and it the herbs just made sense and they really appealed to me from a young age this idea that

you could use these like gentle nourishing herbs on a daily basis and that they could provide so

much comfort and nourishment and just this sense of like caring for yourself and caring for your

body and also caring for those you love like caring for your community those are all concepts

that appeal to me very much from an early age and i just kind of followed this little path that was

late for me and um the years

went by and I was you know diving deeper and deeper into the plant world and truly just kept

meeting people who wanted to teach me and kept meeting people who were doing this for a living

and growing up I had no idea that there were people who were herbalists like I had never heard

of it but people knew that I had this fascination for herbs so oftentimes at my birthday or Christmas

my family would gift me book on like plant identification and like books on local wild

flowers and sometimes these book these books they would contain a little bit of medicinal

or therapeutic information so I started to seek out more and more and after a few summers of

working on medicinal herb farms growing medicinal herbs and edible flowers I decided to pursue

herbal education and I was lucky in Quebec we had several schools to choose from at the time

so I was able to you know start more you know official training if you will

after years of just working with the plants themselves in the gardens so that's how I got

started I love hearing the organic way that plants call to herbalists like it's like they're calling

us in and then the teachers keep presenting themselves and so when we surrender this world

opens up of medicine so thank you for sharing about mint and oregano as a place of origin and

how that evolved for you as you traveled the lands that you live on

I'd love to hear a little bit about oh please continue yeah I had this curiosity about the

plants that surrounded me especially when it connected with different places that I

particularly loved or like places that really meant something to me so an example is going

to my grandparents cottage which was always this sanctuary and this place of like ultimate safety

with them and they would always welcome me and we had such a like you know wholesome beautiful

routine together I was always very close with them

and I remember having this curiosity as a teenager of like walking around the lake and

trying to identify and memorize like what are the plants that grow here in this place that I love so

much and like what kind of environment are they creating like beyond the boundaries of the cottage

where my grandparents lived where I would you know sleep and have my meals but I would often

go explore around it and it's this idea of this curiosity of like what are the plants that are

growing around me in these environments that I cherish and like who are they?

What do they do like how have I seen them elsewhere and starting this almost like this collection in my mind of identifying features and trying to learn more about them and seeing these connections between different places so there was very much that like connection to place and to the wider you know the wider ecosystem and the wider like presence of these plant communities in specific places so that was also something that

you know

it pushed me along the path because I would really

pay attention and notice and like assign maybe some more of those emotional pieces to it as well.

Absolutely I really appreciate how you're describing the experience of this collection

in your mind of identifying features and how that was an avenue to connection to place it

reminds me of something that my mentors Karen and Sarah talk about where Karen always says

you know I'm going to go to a place and I'm going to go to a place and I'm going to go to a place

you know we live with technology now and when we're on walks folks I mean I do this I'm guilty

of this too I take my phone out to take a photo of a plant that I'm that I'm meeting

for the first time and Karen always offers the suggestion of just connecting with them

by deep observation without a photo and seeing what you can collect with your body with your

mind with your senses and having that be what informs that relationship and I think I find

that they they dig in more when we're when we're using more of our body.

When it's more of a somatic experience of connection rather than just like

taking a photograph and moving on does that relate to you as well?

Totally and it's this interesting thing where for me I don't even don't necessarily have this

desire to know exactly like what plant is this because I figure like I will find out eventually

but I enjoy noticing like oh there's this plant again like and noticing it through the different

cycles of growth as well.

So it's about like a bit.

Shifting that relationship to it that I don't need to like know everything about them or I don't

need to know and I can just observe.

Yes it's about that journey rather than the destination of knowing their name it's it's

that process of intimacy that's developing in that relationship.

Thank you.

And I I'm also enjoying lately diving into like different names so you know of course

names in French are interesting and then learning them in English and then learning them in like

local.

Indigenous names based on you know where we are and like whose land we're on I find that that

also gives a lot of interesting little like tidbits about how does a certain culture relate

to a certain plant and why so those are also fun little tidbits to collect along the way.

Yes that's one of my favorite aspects of learning the folklore of plants is

understanding etymology of names there's so much story in how humans have named plants and

particularly when we start to look across different languages that can say so much about

culture and about that particular relationship that really resonates with me as well.

So what inspired you to write this book the herbal doula and how did you decide on this

particular focus?

Oh juicy juicy question well I'll rewind a little bit back to where I left off about my path as a

herbalist and my my education.

I completed various you know programs and immersions with teachers in Quebec namely

Natasha Imbeau and Daniel Laberge and Caroline Gagnon were some of my teachers and mentors to

whom I'm very grateful for everything that they shared with me and I worked in herbal education

for several years and would you know host workshops and consult with people.

I have you know limited number of people that I see I really enjoyed the chance to be with people

long term and support.

you know, their health with herbs in like a long term way. And I was noticing, so my first book,

The Intimate Herbal, was published just a little over two years ago. And it was, you know,

conceptualized, if you will, in like 2018 and 2019, when, I mean, I was at that point, I had

been, you know, practicing herbalism for about a decade. And I was getting a lot of questions from

people in my life, as it had to do with like reproductive care, and how to care for their

bodies, because truly, people aren't taught how to care for their bodies in that way. And there's

also a lot of conditions that can show up that will make people embarrassed, or they don't know

how to ask. So I kept getting like really similar questions from my friends and loved ones and like

community and people in my life who knew that I was a herbalist. So I decided to compile all of

my answers once and for all, so I could direct people.

To a guide that would be, you know, inclusive and accessible and well researched, and really

grounded in like my love of plants and my love of like caring for the plants and for the people

and like bridging those two together. And I learned a lot, putting together this guide,

but I was really clear when I was writing it and putting it together that I couldn't also dive into

like pregnancy and birth and postpartum. Those had to be like,

I kind of just drew the line that it's good to write a guide that is useful and a reference and

something that you know, people will return to again and again, because it's packed with useful

information. Sometimes there's this desire to like, put it all in there, right, like really

write like a Bible for it. But there is really such a thing as like too much information and too

much crammed into a single volume. So I made that decision when I was writing my first book. And I

was clear about it. And I was like, I'm going to write a guide that is useful and a reference and

I'm going to write about it like in the various chapters that kind of, you know, mingled it a little

bit with the topic of fertility and conception and, you know, raising little ones. And I made

that clear separation between the two topics where I said, I'm not going to cover that in my first

book, because I'm really focusing on other aspects of our reproductive health. And since my first

book, The Intimate Herbal came out, many of my loved ones,

have started their families. And it was very much in the air. Just all of my best friends were

pregnant and giving birth to their babies. And it was just, you know, in my circles, people had been

starting their families and having children for many years at that point. But that was really like

a moment where it was like, undeniable that something was in the air. And so a similar

thing happened where I had this intention of putting together a guide that would answer just

a lot of questions that people might have about blending together. And I was like, okay, I'm going

to write a guide that is useful and a reference to other topics. And so I made that clear separation

that people might have about blending together. And so I made that clear separation. And so I made that

clear separation. And so I made that clear separation. And so I made that clear separation.

I had this idea of putting together medicinal herbs and like fertility work. And, you know,

really the whole spectrum from conception to like, you know, caring for young babies and

children as well. And then also for people who work in birthworks, let's just do lives,

for example, their herbalists who want to do, you know, add like birthwork to their practice.

So that's where the book, that's where it originated. And it was very much like both

of my books have very much been grounded.

and what are the questions that people are asking me and what do I see a need for like in my personal

life in the people that I support with herbs um so that's how it came to be and also I found

my first book the intimate herbal I often refer to it myself in the years since it's come out and

I have a copy at home I often refer to it myself when I have different like issues or conditions

that come up and you know even when you're a herbalist and you might have been practicing for

like many years or decades or who knows I mean you just don't have all the information that

they're ready in your head at any given moment especially when you're sick or a little bit

unwell you tend to forget things that you know um or you don't think straight so I found and it's a

part of writing books that has surprised me it's like I actually use them also um I will like find

the condition and I will like flip the pages and find what I wrote then um I have heard I haven't

had um children yet but I've heard people say that who have done both like write a book

and like birth a child you kind of forget like the moment of birth and it's the same with books

you forget like writing it um so when you have this thing in your hands that you wrote you read

it like someone else wrote it it's a little funny that way but I find I'm enjoying the resources so

much and it's something similar with the herbal doula my book that is coming out um in just a

short two weeks which is very exciting um I'm you know it's something I can see for myself like this

possibility of starting a family um in the coming you know couple of years it's something that my

partner and I like talk about and are you know planning for um and it's something that I'm

looking forward to as well that like I want to have this resource just the same way that I use

the other book when I'm when I need it um I want to be able to also use this resource to like

um because you forget that some of those some of those um stages of our reproductive lives

um they can be quite uncomfortable and it can be difficult sometimes

um when you're unwell and you don't you just want to feel good again and there are so many things

that you can do it can be overwhelming like where do you start so those are all like sort of the

you know guiding reasons and um ideas and wishes and hopes um that go into my books

yeah what I appreciate that you've named um in your response what I appreciate about your book

is that it doesn't feel overwhelming there isn't uh you know sometimes um

and

an attempt to be um extensive and cover a lot of possible possibilities um there can be an

abundance of herbs and it can be somewhat overwhelming to discern you know which one

to choose at one moment and what I appreciate is even your materia medica at the end I think

you cover less than 25 plants and you and it's the ones that you're woven into so many different

aspects of perinatal care so there's you know fertility and preconception there's pregnancy and

there's aftercare you even have a chapter dedicated to caring for the birth worker which I really

appreciate it's oftentimes these books are really focused outward and it's like wait what about the

person providing care what do they need to remain um yeah what was your decision and including that

chapter yes yeah I'd love to just kind of see is there anything you want to add to that what felt

important about including a chapter about nurturing the nurturers yeah well it's so connected to this

idea of you know Community care um and even you know the concept of a doula which has traditionally

been you know a support person who may or may not you know be trained in that but it can be like a

grandma or an aunt or a sister or a good friend um and it's really this idea of this yeah the

Community care and kind of like democratizing a little bit like how we care for ourselves and

each other and like including more people into those like webs of care um so it's very much like

the ethos that the whole book is about it's the whole book is about it's the very kind of deep

approach that when we're in a community and we're in a community where we're like we're we're

centered around is how do we you know care for people and similarly a lot of books um geared

towards parents that center on like you know babies and children's health um will focus on

babies and children but not so much the parents um who are caring for the babies and children and

they also need support and they also need care so it was very much this idea of like how do we

how do we extend you know this um this practice of care um to like more people who are involved

like that community that village everyone who's involved in um you know when a family is born

um and when people you know enter that stage of their lives so that was um that was the intention

and also um so both of my books are definitely written in a way to be used both by people who

want to um learn more about herbs for themselves and like use it in their own lives um whether or

not they're herbalists but it's also very much written

in a way that is meant to be a resource for practicing herbalists and doulas um that it's

something that they will gain information from um for their practice including how to like care for

themselves while they practice their craft and i want to circle back to something you mentioned

about the accessibility and the simplicity because that's something that was very much um a decision

that i made and it was rooted in um you know my having the experience of a second book is again

i'm going to draw the parallel with children but i've heard lots of people say that you know the

second child like you feel a bit more confident or you know a bit more what you're doing um than

with your first child and um i have to say that's what it's been like for me with the book writing

process is with my first book um you know i was ambitious right and you want to like you want to

create something that um will be really useful to people and so i really i included like so much

information what i have heard from people that it they did find it very accessible

and inclusive but i knew i could do it even better than that and that started with simplifying and

that was also something this momentum that was happening in my own personal life as these last

few years for the last five years now i've been um tending a small hubby farm with my partner

um and we basically grow like all of the medicinal herbs that we use and that we like

you know um use with other people as well all come from our little hubby farm

and even though for me my herbal practice has always been rooted in this connection to the

garden and this connection to the plants like in their you know natural habitats um and it's

always been connected to this like harvesting and growing of medicinal herbs um to be in on this you

know farm for like five summers in a row now and really planting like what i what i work with um

and the plants that i know that i really use has simplified so much my own personal practice and

i use medicinal herbs for myself um but also for the people around me and in my practice as a

community herbalist um it has shifted more and more towards this like simplicity and these trusted

herbs so that was something that was um a process for me in the you know writing of the herbal doula

which is coming out in two weeks um how can i create something that is just um a reflection

of how my practice has evolved towards simplicity and also more sustainability um

and just like apothecaries that have the herbs that you like actually use

um rather than you know every herb that exists on the market

absolutely it reminds me of something that we talk a lot about in traditional care and

indigenous circles of quality of relationship versus quantity of relationship so it's not about

how many herbs we know but how deep our relationships are with the ones that we

cultivate relationship with and the idea that you know that you're not just you know you're not just

you can do a lot with just a handful of herbs you don't need to know and i see this a lot with

you know folks that are first coming to herbalism where it's new they feel and i felt this myself

when i first um started training more formally is this pressure by dominant culture to know

everything all the time you know like what if someone asks me this one thing and i don't know

what to answer does that mean i'm a bad herbalist but really it's about you know the shame right

putting the time in and getting the time in and getting the time in and getting the time in and

getting to know a few plants really intimately so that you're able to even start to expand

your understanding of their medicine beyond western herbalism um into all the dynamic ways

that you can work with this plant even beyond what we think we can you know they have so much

to offer are there any particular plants that you had to leave out of the book that felt

that was a hard decision but um for whatever reason

you wanted to simplify things are there plants that you had to put aside for this particular

offering hmm that's a good question um none come to mind so i feel like there could have been more

information about mushrooms when i think about it medicinal mushrooms because they are part of

my repertoire um but yeah i feel like the plants that belong in this book um became very clear

early on in the writing process and you know the gathering of information um stage and i

think that simplicity um and that accessibility is very much a demonstration of you know my

maturing as a herbalist right like as you discussed and um being more confident in myself and also

being more confident in the herbs um that it's like oh this is a very humble herb but like

yeah it gets the job done you know and it's like the formulas don't need to be complicated and i

think it's also my maturity as like a plant educator and as an author that i don't need to

write this very complicated resource to like prove my worth or my

legitimacy as a practicing herbalist um that i and i also got the sense that i think this will

actually be like more useful to people who like use the book um and like reach a lot more people

as well um so those were all part of the part of the process and the herbs themselves that kept

popping up that actually caused like a bit of a you know head scratching moment when it came time

to um organize the chapters and organize the different stages because the book is split into

stages from you know fertility conception to

pregnancy postpartum and baby and child care and as you mentioned a section for like doulas and

birth workers to like care for themselves with the help of medicinal herbs um and basically each

stage i would you know put together the herbs that really like um came to mind as like you know

this combination of safety and um effective and ease of use and appeal to a right wide range of

folks right so i don't really tend to work with herbs that have you know really strong

taste that is off-putting or things like that it's just very simple considerations for like

what are the herbs that people can easily find that aren't like you know um extremely pricey or

hard to find or also that aren't from herbs that are you know endangered um or whose populations

are like under threat um lots of considerations like that to identify the herbs and it became

very clear but i knew before i even put it on paper that i was going to be using herbs that

it was going to be the same herbs over and over again and that's the really interesting part i

think of this book and how the information is presented is um from the different stages of the

reproductive life um these similar like herbal allies will come up for lots of different conditions

and lots of different moments and like to address lots of different um things in the body your mind

that might come up and so that gave me the opportunity to really explore each of those

simple gentle safe and

flexible herbs from all of these different lenses um as we progress throughout the different stages

of reproductive health and as we progress through the different chapters of the book

thank you it's fascinating to hear a little bit about your process and how you able how you were

able to select and arrive at the particular plants that we're showing up for this book and the

conversation that you're having with your readers um i'd love to dive more deeply into birth work

itself and into the plant and i think that's a really important part of the book and i think

that's really important for us to really illustrate and to try to understand these ways for which

plants um being in terms of statics as well as the

actic nature of потом destroyed plants um and before we do so let's take a short uh musical break

and then return with marie white and the herbal doula

so

um

so

um

I love you.

You're listening to KPFA 94.1 on Checheno Ohlone land in Berkeley.

And that was Conexión Ancestral by Reina Tropical.

We're speaking with Marie White, author of The Herbal Doula,

about herbs and birth work and community life.

I'd love to go more deeply now into some of the aspects that your book covers

and get into more of the particular plants that you selected

to highlight this care in your book.

One of the things that stands out for me

that I often think gets overlooked in birth work is cesarean births.

And I know that there's a lot that we could talk about here,

but I'm curious if there's anything that you want to share

that you want to share with us.

Anything that you want to share about herbs

that are helpful in caring for a cesarean scar

or how the plants can be helpful in aftercare,

how soon herbs can be utilized topically,

if there's any particular plants that come to mind for care,

I think would be helpful for our listeners.

Ooh, yeah, definitely.

Well, I was born by C-section myself 33 years ago.

And so have, you know,

many of my close friends,

and many of my, you know,

the closest people in my life right now

who have given birth recently

have also given birth by C-section.

So it's something that is very present in my life

and very common.

I wish there were more herbal resources

centered towards, you know,

recovering from such interventions and surgeries,

including C-section.

There was a ton of information that I found

in the, you know, research stage for the herbal doula

because that's something that I've been doing for a long time.

And so that's how I like to come to these, you know,

resources that I share.

And this information that I share

is very much this bringing together

the traditional knowledge

and how herbs have been used traditionally.

And then, you know, verify that with, you know,

recent like scientific research

or like studies that have been done around this herb.

And I definitely will like change my mind

about specific things that I'm teaching

based on the research,

if it like corroborates or not.

So that's something that the traditional knowledge

would have suggested.

And I was shocked to discover, like not surprised,

but shocked to discover that both calendula

and St. John's wort,

which were the two herbs that, you know,

I would use in preparing like a postpartum package

for, you know, someone in my community

who has recently given birth

and, you know, potentially by C-section,

a calendula salve and St. John's wort salve,

or even an oil to apply over the wound.

And both of those herbs separately

have been studied extensively

and have been shown to reduce, you know, scarring

and reduce healing time by half in some cases

without any like side effects.

So I'm really shocked as to why,

like not everyone is gifted,

like a bottle of calendula oil or St. John's wort oil,

one or the other, or even both of them.

But I mean, in that sense for that use,

like they will have similar action,

but why not use both if that's accessible.

So I'm really shocked as to why not use both if that's accessible.

So I'm really shocked as to why not use both if that's accessible

or one or the other.

And it can be applied really like, you know,

really, really soon after the C-section itself

and then applied multiple times a day to reduce,

yeah, like, so like itching was reduced a lot,

scarring, healing time was much faster,

and then also like reducing pain in the area.

So that's something that I was so happy

and grateful to get to include in the book,

along with the specific details

of the studies that were involved.

And it's something that I think people will benefit

from learning more about that.

I think we very much exist at a time

where there's a culture of fear around medicinal herbs.

And to be fair, like there is a lot of misinformation

right now and disinformation online,

which I think makes it reasonable to be like skeptical

or doubtful of herbs,

just because it's hard to find sources

that are safe and credible.

And I share tips on how to do that in my book,

because I address the threat of disinformation,

especially as it relates to fertility and birth work,

which is a huge concern right now, like on the internet.

But all that to say, we exist in this time

where people may be like fearful of using herbs,

but we truly have so many herbs and herbal practices

at our disposal that are like extremely safe

and have been like proven to be effective.

So that's something that I'm really grateful

for the people who have organized those studies

and for everyone

who has participated to show

and make that information more available to people.

Absolutely, I was really pleasantly surprised

to find that at the beginning of your book as well,

just kind of acknowledging and addressing that directly

of the misinformation,

the abundance of information online

and how that doesn't always translate into knowledge.

The other aspect in your book that I appreciated

that I'd love to hear you speak about now is,

is the fact that you're talking about, you know,

abortion care and miscarriage care.

I know that things are a little different in Canada,

in the US we have issues around reproductive justice

in various states.

And there, I know that the scope of abortion care

is not something that we can really cover on the radio,

but if there's anything in terms of the emotional,

spiritual side that you want to offer in terms of plants

for those types of experiences in perinatal care,

I would love to hear your take.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's inconceivable, you know, even to have a book about fertility and reproductive health as it relates to pregnancy and birth and ignore the reality of miscarriage and abortion, which I don't have like the numbers exactly, but I believe it's about like a quarter of all pregnancies end in abortion and a quarter end in miscarriage around there.

Not exactly, perhaps, but that's a significant portion of people who experience pregnancy will experience, you know, either miscarriage, singular or plural, and same with abortion, singular or plural throughout their reproductive lives.

So it was absolutely something that was like, you know, non-negotiable for me. And it's something that I also cover in my first book. And you're right when you say that the landscape is very different between Canada and the U.S.

Because here, you know, abortion is not something that can be even like debated. It's a simple like medical procedure that like everyone can have access to at any time and it's free of cost and it's not something that could ever be, you know, taken away from people.

And then, but that, you know, certain like stigma remains, right? And the same with miscarriage, I think it's this idea of loss and release and we don't really have the language and we don't really have, you know,

many of us don't have the capacity to like hold that and care for that and like allow it to exist in a way that also like addresses the different discomforts that can arise, both physical and emotional and, you know, spiritual and all of that, because those are big, big things that happen in our lives, and they can feel big sometimes, and they can also like be big.

So the herbs that I recommend definitely like nervines for the nervous system so that would be herbs like milky.

Oats, which are, you know, so beneficial in so many different like stages of life, but they can be taken every day, and they support, you know, act as a restorative for the nervous system so support, you know, healthy like mood regulation, and like the ability to relax.

Another important herb to add would be ashwagandha root, which is an adaptogen, and known to help reestablish like a healthy sleep wake cycle.

So when there's you know sleep dysregulation.

Disruption that might coexist, along with the loss can make things like even harder to recover from. What else. Well, raspberry leaf is a classic uterine tonic.

It's a, you know, great herb for their reproductive system.

Yeah, acting as a tonifying herb that is also safe and can be taken every day just like milky oats. So those are some of the things that come to mind.

Beautiful.

Yeah, it's exciting to hear about the different ways, the different considerations that you're holding within the scope of perinatal care and all the different ways that we can experience life and loss and how they can coexist next to each other.

I'm curious if as you're in your work as a practicing herbalist, as a community herbalist, what are you seeing in your community?

What are some patterns you're noticing?

What are some patterns you're noticing in terms of care perhaps in particular plants showing up over and over again or perhaps in patterns of imbalance that you that feel helpful to kind of share with our listeners here on the radio?

Well, I would say, noticing those things and those patterns have had like a huge influence on me and my practice, and my work as a plant educator and someone who writes and teaches about medicinal herbs and reaches you know many readers.

And what I've noticed is really this noticing in the last you know decade or so of just like the tremendous impact of, you know, stress and like environmental, you know, pollution, and just like the impact of all of those like, you know, also social determinants of health.

All of those impacting people's health in ways that I think have been like previously unseen in the past, and especially.

Especially women.

you know, as a result of just like ongoing sexism and existing in a system that makes it like harder

for women. So a pattern I've noticed is a lot of the people that I get to like work with, with

Herbs, who I've had the chance to work with over the years, women are struggling with more of those

chronic conditions or more like invisible disabilities and more of those, you know,

conditions that rather than being acute, like you'll be sick for a while, but then you get better,

that a certain low level of sickness or discomfort is like the baseline and it becomes a norm as

opposed to like feeling really good and then being sick with a virus sometime or other illness and

then recovering and being back to like feeling like 100%. It's something I've noticed that has

really shaped how I practice and how I even talk about health. Like what is health when you have a

chronic condition? And many people around me, like many women around me live with that now.

How do we redefine like what is healthy and what is, you know, satisfying relationship to like

your own health and how you care for your body when there's a certain like low level,

you know, discomfort or illness that will like always be present basically based on so many

intersecting factors that many of us don't have much control over. And it's also the reality of

this era that we exist within. So I would say those patterns of like more,

more invisible disability, more chronic illness, and the impact of intersecting factors,

including like environmental factors and like societal factors impacting people's health and

especially women's health is something that I've noticed in my life and work and something that

has changed. Yeah. How I write about health and like inviting me to question more ableist

perspectives or inviting me to question, you know, this like

almost like macho pursuit of like optimal health in a way when we're existing at a time when so

many people don't have basic necessities. And we're also existing at a time when we're seeing

the impacts of things like climate change and, you know, ecosystems being under threat. And

how does that impact us? Absolutely. As you were sharing a little bit about what you're seeing

in your community, I was thinking about how much stress impacts fertility in general,

if we want to start at the beginning of the cycle that you're illustrating in your book.

And I'm curious, when you're working with clients or when you're offering education into your

community, and particularly once folks become pregnant, how do you recommend folks engage with

the medicine? How do you advise preparation of herbs, whether that be tea or tincture? How do

you advise dosing? How do you move in terms of that, in terms of education?

Oh, that's a good question. I would say I'm very much in the camp of like finding what works for

people. I am really reluctant to kind of like push my own expectations on others or like,

you know, create a protocol for them that might be like out of reach or inaccessible,

even though like I might think that it's the best that it could do. I've always been very

interested in like, well, what is your lifestyle? What are some of the flavors that you enjoy?

Um,

if we go to like the herb shop together, or if we go to the community garden, um, at the little

like medicinal herb patch, which, you know, many cities have, so that's a good option as well as,

um, or in the store and like, what are some of the herbs that appeal to you? Like maybe I'll

suggest, you know, three or four and then give them a little bio for each and then see how they

respond to that. And usually there's a pretty clear reaction. Um, if I offer them like three

different herbs and I give like a quick bio for each herb, um, I'll see the person's like kind of

face light up when they hear a specific one, like there'll be just specific information about that

plant that we'll just like, um, they'll be more interested in. And another thing I like to do,

um, is really like inquiring about like at home, like what are their rituals and habits and what

are some of the herbal preparations that would really appeal to them that they would like enjoy

using regularly or, um, that they feel they could incorporate into their life. And then there's also

the question, as I think, you know, is important to both of us with our cultures, um, and our

connection to our cultures is like, what is culturally relevant to you and your people

and your community, um, is like a huge component of that as well. And then like, how does it feel

in your body when you take it? Um, and also this idea of accessibility, because now it's, um,

it's a tricky time because we have access to more herbs and more plants than ever.

Like at the click of a button, like 24 seven, there's like a gazillion herbs available to us at

all times. Um, but it's also like not that accessible because not many people really

grow them anymore, or like even on the balcony or a community garden or in their yard, or really

have that connection that I know many of our ancestors had, where it was more of that, like

daily growing of these medicinal herbs and using them in a more, um, like integrated way. Um, so

for many people, that question of accessibility is really important. And I think that's a really

important thing to think about. And I think that's a really important thing to think about. Um,

you know, is that herb accessible to you both in terms of like, can you find it easily where you

live? And also like, does it break the bank? Like if you have to take it often for long periods,

um, cause some, you know, it's great to see herbs becoming trendier because it means there's a lot

more choice and there's a lot more, you know, makers and there's a lot more options available

to us, which is nice. Um, but that, you know, certain trendiness also comes with, um, the

cost that can be out of reach for many, especially today as we're, you know, existing

at a time where there's a lot of poverty and there's a lot of people in need, um, who don't

have a lot of money to spend on medicinal herbs, even if they need them and they benefit from them.

Um, so those are like, you know, just to give a few starting ideas of the different factors that

go into, um, you know, supporting that connection between the people and the plants that might,

you know, benefit them. Um, so those are all kinds of things that I'll think about. And I'm

very much a proponent of, um, using herbs in simple ways. Um,

so, you know, in food and making like tasty drinks with them and, um, people who know

me, um, either in my personal life or my life as a practicing herbalist or by reading my

books, know that I have like a love affair with herbal baths, um, which have always been

like one of my favorite ways to administer herbs. Um, and I find like many people that

I meet who I consult with, um, to help them become more acquainted with medicinal herbs

and to start incorporate them more into their lives. Um, it's something that I'll usually try

if they have the inclination, um, to guide them through the process of how to do it. Because

again, like we discussed earlier about the book, about my book that is coming out and, um, how,

you know, there's this approach of simplicity. Um, it can be a bit tricky to navigate sometimes

because even though it seems very simple, people who have never done it before, um,

they'll often not be sure like, Oh, how do you do a herb bath? Like what, which herbs can I use?

Like, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't

know. Like how long do I steep it? Like how much plant material do I use? Like how long do I stay

in the bath? Like, you know, there's just, it seems very simple. Like, Oh, you brew plants and

you put the tea in your bath and you soak in it, but people actually have lots of questions. So

this very simple approach isn't that simple until you've done it and you've practiced it and you

become like more comfortable with it, then it's more intuitive. Um, but those are, those are some

of the things that I bring forth, um, with people when we have those conversations.

Right. And I feel like sometimes people,

people are like, am I doing this right? Is there a right way and a wrong way to do this?

I hear so much in your response, how much education you do. And I, and that comes across

in your book clearly. Um, and also in the way that you're speaking. And so what are some,

so let's use the bath as an example. What are some aspects when you're in that, when you're

wearing that hat and you're educating your community or your client on an herbal bath,

what are some aspects you like to underline or you like to bring forward to help bring ease into

someone's fear that they're doing it wrong? Um, or are some guiding words to help them

reconnect with their own power in the process of drawing their own medicinal bath?

I think it's about returning to this sense of, um, you know, play and exploration and

even like a certain, you know, willingness to interact with an entity like a medicinal,

um, medicinal herb that, you know, is going to have an effect on you. Um, and it can be very

subtle effects, but it's like, you're entering into this relationship where you're inviting it

to do its work, like on your body and your mind. Um, so those would be things that I would suggest,

like when people are reluctant or, you know, insecure or like uncertain or like don't know

where to start, um, is to kind of bring that, that playful energy into it. Um, because I think we

take, it's kind of this idea that we've really separated,

whatever is therapeutic and medicinal, um, we associate it with something that's very sterile

and even like uncomfortable or unpleasant. Um, because a lot of the, the, our relationship to

like, you know, having others care for us when our, we're ill or unwell, it will usually involve

like quite a bit of like unpleasant procedures. And it's something that we know, like, oh,

we can suffer a little bit to receive the appropriate care that you need because it's

good for you, like in the longterm, but in the moment, like it's not enjoyable.

Um, and I think it's really that relationship to like herbalism as a way of life and, um, as a

practice, um, that you're really shifting that narrative because so much of daily herbalism and

herbal care is all about this, like amazing connection with the plants and they smell good

in the garden and you're playing around and you're making these like delicious syrups that you sip on

with like sparkling water, or you're making this herbal oil and you give yourself like a foot

massage with it. And it's just like,

it's a bit about, you know, changing people's expectations of what it means. Like, um, what

is therapeutic and like, can something be therapeutic and also like feel really good

at like every step of the process pretty much. Um, so it's about rewiring a little bit,

that relationship to like how we care for ourselves and like, what is therapeutic.

Are there any particular plants or a plant that you'd like to offer for listeners to bathe with,

to do an herbal bath with that are coming to mind or to heart?

Which one are you talking about?

Yeah, they're a particular plant.

Right. Um, well, I am going to go back again to milky oats because it's such a good one. It's one,

like, I think when we're, you know, circling back to the topic of my upcoming book, um, all about,

you know, perinatal care and postpartum care, I think, uh, milky oats is something that will be

safe, like through all stages, um, from, you know, conception to postpartum and beyond. Um, I think

milky oats is one that will be safe. Um, and I think it's a good one. I think it's a good one.

Um, I think it's a good one. I think it's a good one. I think it's a good one. I think it's a good one.

It will be like very nourishing in a bath. Um, it's safe and, you know, it's easy to brew. Um,

and like most people don't find that, you know, it irritates their skin or anything like that,

which, um, some people have more sensitive skin than others. Like I'm a person with sensitive

skin. So I think about that a lot as well. Um, like there are certain herbs that have more

aromatics, um, that I might not soak in. Like if I'm feeling, you know, my skin is being more

sensitive or irritated, um, even just medicinal herbs that have a more, um, essential, like a

higher, like aromatic and like essential oil content. So for example, even like mint or chamomile,

which are like really dreamy and nice to soak in. Um, but if you're in a reactive mode, which

sometimes being ill, um, it can like elevate that reactivity. So keeping that in mind, I think,

um, milky oats would be a choice that would be like really safe, um, and gentle for like most

bodies. And, you know, you mentioned, right, like we're all under a lot of stress and, um,

stress can come like from, you know, social situations, but also like economical situations

and environmental situations. And there's just so many different types of stress that we're

living with. And I think there's the amount that we have to carry, um, is like perhaps a bit

unreasonable. Um, and it's making a lot of us sick. So I think any herb that is going to act as a,

um, true for restorative and, you know, regenerating for the nervous system,

I think like we can all benefit from that.

Absolutely. Yes. To milky oats. Yes. To Avena in general for the listeners. Um, so I know that

you have your book coming out in a couple of weeks. Um, how can listeners get in touch with

you and, um, what do you have planned beyond the release of your book?

Ooh, yeah. Well, I continue to, um, I continue to like promote and interview and teach, um,

and like any, you know, opportunity that comes my way. Um, I try to take it to,

um, meet with people and share more about my work and also share more about the herbs.

So my book, the herbal doula, um, is launching officially on September 17th,

2024. It is available for pre-order now and book pre-orders are just amazing. They really help,

um, booksellers and bookstores know which books are popular. So the more people pre-order the book,

um, the more bookstores will carry it and libraries and the more like people they will reach.

Um, so I definitely encourage anyone who's interested in what they've heard so far,

um, to go ahead and pre-order the herbal doula and it will ship on September 17th. So those who

place a pre-order will also be the very first people to get the book in their hands,

uh, which is quite exciting. People can find me online. Um, I'm on Instagram and, um, the handle

is my name, Mahi White, and the two, um, words are separated by like three underscores, um,

and no, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um,

um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um,

I'm sure this will all be in the show notes. Um, aside from that, um, yeah, people can find more

information about me, um, through my publisher, North Atlantic Books. Um, they have like author

pages and they also keep it up to date with different like appearances, whether that's

podcast appearances, I've done a few lately and there's more coming. And also when I'm teaching

workshops in person and online, um, they're really good, the whole team, um, there, and they keep it

all like on my author profile as well. Um, so those are some of the best places to find me.

Beautiful. Any sneak peek on what your third book might be about?

Well, actually, um, I have written a third one. Um, it's not under contract with the publisher yet.

Um, that will come later, but my third book is actually a memoir.

Oh, beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us, Marie White. We are just delighted for this

conversation.

Thank you for the listeners of the Irbel Highway and KPFA. I'd also like to thank

Kirsten on the controls. I am Rene Camila, your host for today. Bendiciones, que tengan buen dia.

Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz.

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