Interview with Rebecca Jones

A 14-year-old shooter, two students and two teachers dead, nine more hospitalized.

The shooting on Wednesday at Appalachee High School in Georgia is a heartbreaking story.

A community, a state, a nation are all asking once again, why?

Why did another 14-year-old have access to an assault rifle?

What was in his heart that drove him to murder?

Some reports say he had been interviewed by the local sheriff last year because of

anonymous online threats, but lacking evidence, there was no action.

Now in custody, the shooter will have charges filed against him today.

Justice must be served.

But for now, we'll pray Psalm 34.

The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.

Welcome to Haven Today on this Friday.

And I hope you've had a good week.

I hope today is a great day and we'll do our best to help you finish it out well.

I'm David Wolin, sharing the great story that's all about Jesus.

And today we're wrapping up a fun little series we've been calling Jesus and the Ten Commandments.

And this is fun for me because I love opening up the Old Testament and its stories.

I grew up in church.

Most of the major Bible stories I learned either at home or through Sunday school teachers with

flannel graph boards showing me Father Abraham, Moses and the Ten Commandments, David and Goliath,

and so many more.

But for me, and I think for many, many Christians, the story of Jesus, though clearly a big story,

even the biggest story compared to all the rest, it seemed like another story in a succession

of stories.

It wasn't entirely clear how it all fit together.

And then the Lord, in his kindness to me, brought people like Charles Morris,

to my life.

And Charles was my predecessor here on Haven Today, and I had the privilege of working

with him closely early on decades ago.

And then also people like Dr. Ed Clowney.

He had already passed away when I first read his books and started listening to his teaching,

but he was instrumental in helping me understand and see that the story of Jesus isn't limited

to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

The story of Jesus is the story of the Bible.

The Bible is one.

One story about the King and his kingdom.

It's a complex story to be sure.

The most beautiful stories always are, but this story is the bedrock reality of everything

that exists.

And in this story, we find our place and understand how our lives fit into that story.

But none of that becomes fully visible unless you can begin to see Jesus.

Jesus throughout the scriptures.

And the Lord used many people in my life to...

Help me along the way.

Ed Clowney was prominent among them.

And in a few minutes, I'm excited to introduce you to the other person who worked on his

last book, his daughter, Rebecca.

I was able to catch up with her and record a conversation about her dad and how they

worked on this book together.

And this is the book we've been talking about.

The last book Ed Clowney wrote, How Jesus Transforms the Ten Commandments.

And if hearing that you're scratching your head a little, I'm excited for you.

This is an opportunity for you to be dazzled with the glory of Christ in scripture.

There are a couple of ways Jesus transforms the Ten Commandments.

One is that he deepens and widens them.

He articulates not just the technical meaning, but also what those commandments are pointing

to, the heart of the law, the requirements of a holy God.

And they are much bigger and much more expansive than we could possibly imagine.

So great that none but Christ alone could ever meet them and keep them perfectly.

Perfectly.

But there's a second way Jesus transforms the Ten Commandments, and that is by fulfilling

them.

And that's true in the sense of meeting those strict requirements of the law, but also he

himself is what the law was pointing toward.

We scratched the surface of this, but to open up the treasure chest of what we're talking

about, you're going to have to get this book by Dr. Ed Clowney, How Jesus Transforms the

Ten Commandments.

With every chapter, you'll find yourself transported all across the canon of scripture

as Ed Clowney helps you connect the dots, see the big picture, and even recognize the

prophetic aspect of each of the Ten Commandments and how Jesus fleshes them out in fulfillment.

And that's why at the beginning of this series, I said, the effect of the Ten Commandments

on the life of a Christian should be first and foremost to cause us to fall down before

the Lord Jesus in worship.

And I'd love for you to have that experience as well.

How Jesus Transforms.

The Ten Commandments is our way of saying, thank you for standing with Haven.

And of course, we do want to bless you with this book, but the reason for giving to Haven

is bigger than that.

Your gift keeps this ministry and more importantly, this message that's all about Jesus on the

airwaves of North America and around the world.

And if that mission moves your heart, would you consider even becoming a monthly partner

with us?

You can sign up for that by phone or online.

And the truth is...

Because we need a lot more monthly partners to help us weather the storms we're going

through right now.

So we're praying for the Lord to bring more monthly partners that Haven needs.

So whichever way you feel led today is great.

And you have our deepest thanks.

The number to call is 865-HAVEN, 865-HAVEN, or go online to haventoday.org, haventoday.org.

This is Haven Today.

I'm David Wolin.

And all this week, we've been talking about this wonderful book, How Jesus Transforms

the Ten Commandments by Ed Clowney, or Edmund Clowney was his full name.

And with me today is Rebecca Clowney-Jones, who was part of putting that book together

in those final weeks of Ed Clowney's life.

So, Rebecca, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today.

Oh, it's my pleasure.

And especially to talk about my own dad, whom I loved so much.

Well, as I was just saying to you off mic, he is precious to so many.

And people like me who never had the chance to meet him, but who have heard so much of

his voice and his passion for Jesus and all the scriptures, I feel like I know him.

So, you know, in just in our discussion today, I thought it would be good just to go a little

beneath the surface and kind of back into the story of who he was.

Yes.

Anybody who can answer this question, it's you.

For a listener out there who's never heard of your dad, Ed Clowney, what do you think

that they should know about him?

You know, who was he?

Yeah, there's so much to know.

He grew up as an only child in Philadelphia.

And they went to a faithful Bible teaching church there.

And the pastor had quite a lot of influence on my dad.

And my dad was always very interested in the scriptures.

And they had to memorize the Westminster Confession of Faith entirely.

And for that, he was given his Bible.

And so he was already thinking a lot about the Lord and just hasn't, I think he was one

of those children that really just loved the Lord from the beginning.

And then he went off to college and met my mom.

And they, then he became a pastor, went to Westminster, became a pastor and had several

pastorates before I came on the scene.

And then when we moved to Philadelphia for him to be in charge of the practical theology

and preaching, and I was about two at that time when that happened.

So, well, he went on to be the president of the seminary there.

And then, of course, he was writing prolifically.

And there's a number of books that I have on my bookshelf by him.

And at your suggestion last night, I opened up the Bible.

There's a biography of Tim Keller, and there's a whole chapter on the influence that your

dad had on his life, which was, in Tim Keller's words, profound.

Yes.

And he was the person that helped him, Tim Keller, to see indeed that all of scripture

is pointing to Christ, which, you know, that his ministry became known for doing that so

well.

But his affection for your dad was there all throughout.

And even at the end of, near the end of your life.

Yeah.

And even at the end of your dad's life, they were co-teaching a seminary class.

Yes.

Which is, I've listened to it twice.

You said you've listened to it, you know.

Yeah.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

It's very, very spontaneous.

And they just tease each other all the time.

And it's a very fascinating thing to hear.

Yeah.

And that class, by the way, was Preaching Christ to the Postmodern World, which both

of them did so well.

So I'm curious.

I'm curious.

So this book.

This book, which to me, seems almost like a fitting capstone to such an extensive ministry

career, how Jesus transforms the Ten Commandments.

But I know that you were drafted by him to help him get it across the finish line.

I believe your words, you were there to aerate the manuscript, I think.

Well, that makes it sound as if it was dense.

But I think the problem was that he had so densified it, if that's a word, that it had

become very short.

And they wanted, actually.

A little more text.

So that's where I came in.

He was not feeling up to the task.

And he said, hey, look, you can throw some stories in here and make it a little more

interesting and fill it out a little bit.

So that's what I did for him.

And I put that little intro in the book to tell people that part of this was just a little

bit of my input as well, so that it was a family affair in the end.

But I didn't put a whole lot in.

But this was he was just a few weeks away from.

Dying.

And I was able to go to him and say, hey, they've accepted it now that we redid it and

reworked it.

So he was happy about that.

Yeah.

Your dad was so good at taking things that were familiar, like the Ten Commandments,

and opening them up so that we could see, in fact, it's not simple.

It's beautifully complex.

And then he had a way of connecting it to Jesus and re-simplifying it so that you could

see it as never before.

Yeah.

Well, the thing that struck me most about reading that was the comment that he made

about hear him.

And that just sums up the whole book, really, is that Jesus is there on the mountaintop

with the disciples who were with him, you know, there and Elijah.

And it's just such a capstone, really, that those two words, you know, hear him.

So he is now the law.

And you had better listen to what comes out of his mouth, because whatever comes out of

his mouth is our new law.

So that's the one that really sort of, to me, summed up the entire book.

Yes.

Yes, that's right.

That's right.

That struck me as well.

They're the mount of transfiguration.

Moses is there.

Elijah is there representing the law and the prophets.

And there's only one commandment from the voice of God on that mountain for those disciples,

right?

This is my son.

Listen to him.

Hear him.

Hear him, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, may we do that.

Gives me goosebumps even when you hear it said.

Yeah, that's right.

Listen to him.

Well, I was thinking about, in the foreword, you talked about your dad's final weeks there

in the hospital.

And do I remember it correctly that he wasn't known in life as a singer, but apparently

he developed a passion in those last few weeks of his life.

Well, he couldn't sing to save his life.

So there were some funny times where the end, because his mind was going, getting confused.

And so we were, many of us were around his bed when he died.

And I have to say that his death, in God's grace, did something in the life of my older

sister, who was not a believer at the time.

And she expected to be very sad and said that she, instead, she had an invasion of

death.

She had an invasion of joy, but did not understand, expected that it would go away.

It didn't.

So she had come to know some of the people down in the church there in Charlottesville.

And so she called one of her friends and said, look, I don't understand this.

She says, I know it's something religious, but I don't know what to do about it.

Can you help me?

So she became close friends with the folks in the church there and drove down to go to

church every Sunday, five hour drive.

And within a few weeks, the Lord had, you know, she became a Christian.

So that was such a delight to see what God did with that.

Because, of course, my dad and all of us prayed for her for a long time, but he knew.

And my sister said, oh, he just got up there and had a word with the Lord.

Yeah.

And I'm glad, you know, this is part of the story I've never heard before, but I'm so

glad to know from when we've talked in the past about the burden that parents, especially

Christian parents, bear for their unsaved children.

And it's very helpful to hear stories like this, especially coming from someone like

Ed Clowney.

You know, could Ed Clowney, of all people, have a child that was raised in the church,

raised in the faith, but not professing faith in Jesus?

And, of course, the answer is, of course.

Of course that could be.

But then it's also so encouraging to be reminded that it's the Lord who moves.

And your dad didn't get to live to see it with his own eyes or hear it with his own

ears, but the Lord drew her to himself.

Praise God.

Yeah.

Wonderful.

Wow.

Well, 20 years, I think, have gone by almost.

I guess it'll be 20 years next year since the Lord called him home.

And just looking back over those years, what's your perspective now on his life and how

the Lord used Ed Clowney?

How would you talk about his legacy?

Well, I mean, I just saw so many.

He was an innovator, really, in many ways.

He was steady and solid and all that.

But he was the one that wanted to get two new seminaries built, one in Florida and one

in California.

The one in Florida didn't work out.

But the one in California.

The one in California did, when he sent the three bobs out there.

And of course, he was highly interested in the seminary in France, where Peter taught

for nearly 18 years.

And I just found him to be somebody who was always kind of thinking, not exactly outside

the box, but he just wanted to encourage.

He was a very encouraging man.

He wasn't a terribly judgmental person.

Especially eager to see people who were working hard in the kingdom and try to encourage them

and give them hope.

And of course, as a dad, to me, he was just absolutely marvelous father.

I can't think of anything that I had against him.

I can remember when I was eight years old, going up with him and he would go preaching

in North Jersey.

And I just felt it's such a privilege to be up there with my little legs dangling.

And chills going up and down my spine as he preached and just being with him.

And yeah, I just loved him dearly and I know he loved me dearly too.

So very, very encouraging person in many ways.

I think of him that way, anyway.

Well, it certainly comes across in his writing.

And it comes across in the book, How Jesus Transforms the Ten Commandments.

And you know, I was just, just thinking as you were talking about him.

As a father and was remembering, Tim Keller described him as a spiritual father to him

in his life and in his ministry.

And even as far removed as I am from his own life and ministry, but I would say the same.

So I'm so excited to, I was just excited to get to talk with you about him today.

And I know this has been an encouraging conversation for many.

If your dad had been here.

In this interview, of course, we've been talking about him so much.

He might just be sitting there shifting uncomfortably in his seat, but if he could leave a thought

with our listeners, do you have a hunch of what it is that he might've wanted to say

or leave us with?

I guess he would just say, hear him.

Hear, hear him.

Well, Rebecca Jones, thank you so very much for sharing some of your memories of your

dad, Ed Clowney, and your involvement as well.

Your contribution.

And I'm so excited to hear your reflections to this just marvelous book, How Jesus Transforms

the Ten Commandments.

And I think you got to the heart of it so well.

What's the point of it all?

Hear him, right?

Listen to Jesus.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

Oh, you're welcome.

My pleasure.

All right.

Take care.

God bless.

.

This is Haven Today.

I'm David Wolin, and I'm so thankful for the time we got to spend with Rebecca Clowney-Jones today.

If you'd like to hear my extended interview with her,

where she shares a few more fascinating and funny stories about her late father's ministry,

check out our Great Stories podcast at haventoday.org

or Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

I pray this program and this topic of Jesus and the Ten Commandments has been encouraging to you.

These aren't new ideas, but ancient truths, realities that Jesus taught about.

And as the disciples heard the voice of the Father from heaven speaking on that Mount of Transfiguration,

this is my Son, whom I love. With Him I am well pleased.

Listen to Him.

And so we do. We must.

Jesus is the law in living flesh, and we bow down before Him,

the one who fulfills the law.

And the prophets, and for that matter, the Ten Commandments.

Dr. Ed Clowney goes through each of them one by one,

connecting the dots across the canon of Scripture, Old and New Testaments,

showing us how Jesus transforms the Ten Commandments.

It's a book that will not only give you lots of those lightbulb moments

when suddenly you can see something you've never seen in Scripture before,

but it will also help lead you to worship the Lord Jesus in a new way.

So may I encourage you, make an investment.

And in your spiritual life, in your walk with Jesus,

and get your copy of How Jesus Transforms the Ten Commandments,

this is our way of saying thank you for helping Haven keep the great story

that's all about Jesus on the air here in North America and around the world.

The number to call is 865-HAVEN.

865-HAVEN.

Or go online to haventoday.org.

haventoday.org.

I'm David Wollin.

Won't you come back again next time?

We'll be keeping it all about Jesus.

It's the great story here on Haven Today.