How To Sniff Like A Dog

This is the Leonard Lopate Show on WNYC.

I'm Jonathan Capehart, in today for Leonard Lopate.

Dogs see through the world of smell,

taking in everything from the scents of other dogs and their humans

to bedbugs and thunderstorms.

For this week's Please Explain,

we're following dogs as they sniff their way through life

with their incredible sense of smell.

Alexandra Horowitz, who teaches canine cognition

and creative nonfiction at Barnard College

and runs the Horowitz Dog Cognition Lab,

explores the abilities of a dog's nose,

how it's evolved and how it's being put to use,

and how we can improve our own sense of smell.

Her latest book, Being a Dog, Following the Dog into a World of Smell,

is published by Simon & Schuster,

and I'm pleased to welcome Alexandra Horowitz to the show.

Thank you very much for being here.

Thank you.

And we also invite you to join the conversation

at 212-433-969.

Do you have questions about the science

or just a basic question about your pooch?

Call us and we can talk about it.

Again, thank you very much for being here.

As I said to you before we went on air,

I admit it, I'm a cat person.

My husband is a dog person

and has sort of brought me along

to seeing the fun and beauty of dogs.

And what I loved about at least the start of the book

is that you can talk about the science,

but you talk about dogs

and the incredible sense of smell that they have.

And I'm going to use this, what you write here,

just to have the listeners have an appreciation

for just how tuned in their dog's nose is.

You're right.

Let's think of an aroma pleasing to our noses.

Cinnamon rolls cooking in a home kitchen.

The average cinnamon roll has about a gram of cinnamon in it.

Sure.

Whatever the human nose is on it.

From the moment we open the door of the house.

Now imagine the smell of one trillion cinnamon rolls.

That's what the dog coming in with us smells when we enter.

That blew my mind.

It's not subtle.

How does a dog not lose its mind

with being bombarded with all of this information?

Well, to be fair, I don't exactly know.

I have to make an imaginative leap

into what it might be like to be an olfactory creature

since I, like you,

am visually oriented.

But I think about the visual analog.

In other words, we walk into this room

and we're not overwhelmed

with the variety of colors and surfaces and shapes.

It's just information to us.

And I think for dogs, it's the same thing.

Just information.

Just in smells, right.

So how did you become interested in this?

And in your bio, when I read it,

I'm sure it struck people as a little odd.

You teach canine cognition

and you teach creative nonfiction at Barnard,

which comes through in the writing of the book.

It's relatable.

It's funny.

How did you get here?

How did you get interested in this?

It's a longer story than your episode,

but I'd say that I began to study the mind of the dog.

I was interested in what it might be like to be a dog.

And I was doing cognitive science work,

so simple experiments, observing dogs.

And when you start doing that,

you can't help but see that there's something

that we kind of naturally miss.

And we miss about most non-human animals,

which is kind of what their sensory world is.

So I did a little bit of a deep dive

into that sensory experience for this book.

You're not kidding.

Talk about the deep dive.

Well, part of that imaginative leap

into the olfactory world

is trying to become a better smeller myself.

Because, of course, we have perfectly good noses

on our faces.

It's just we're not using them.

For the most part,

we're not putting them up to things and sniffing.

In fact, we mostly, I can't speak for everyone,

but most of us have an aversion

to putting your nose in things and sniffing.

And so I tried to follow my dog's lead.

Okay.

Let's...

All right.

So you, dogs sniff.

They sniff everything.

Yeah.

We look.

They sniff.

So did you really,

Finn is your dog.

Yes.

So we've seen dogs,

they sniff fire hydrants, sidewalks, other dogs.

Did you do all of those things?

And what was that experience like for you?

Well, one of the first things I did was I thought,

well, listen, I have two dogs.

I actually live with two dogs.

Finn is sort of the professional dog

and Upton who accompanies us.

And I thought, I'll just sniff what they sniff, right?

I can do that.

So we'd go out of the house and...

You did this in public?

It was in public.

And I, my Finnegan started sniffing a tree guard,

you know, the little iron railings around the trees.

And he finished up, was ready to continue walking.

And so I got down on all fours and sniffed myself.

And it didn't smell as bad as I thought it would.

In fact, there was a kind of bright, maybe paint smell,

maybe something like a metal, metallic smell.

As I did this, I looked and I see my dogs looking at me

really strangely.

And in fact, there was a couple coming up the street

and they...

Where are we, where are we?

This was on the Upper West Side where I live.

And they actually left the sidewalk

and walked into the street to walk around me.

And I thought, okay, I'm not ready for this socially.

So I then stopped following their every move.

Although I will sniff some of the things they sniff.

Because sometimes it's a mysterious odor.

If there's something in the grass, I can't see it.

I want to know, can I smell it?

Often I cannot.

But you'd be surprised at just getting close to a surface,

any surface, a wall, for instance,

that there's suddenly an odor coming back at you.

And so that was what they opened up the door for me a little bit.

And then I took sort of more traditional media

and put them to my nose.

Odorants and bottles.

I studied with a perfumer.

I followed a sommelier and things like that.

And so you...

Well, we have to...

Before I go to the experiment you did in the park,

you write about why dogs pee.

Yeah.

Oh, I got ahead of myself.

Well, that was the second thing I was going to come to.

Why dogs sniff each other.

And the difference between the way male dogs sniff

and female dogs sniff.

Right, right.

Go into that.

So we all know, anyone who has a dog or has observed dogs

know that they like to sniff each other.

And it turns out they're getting a lot of information

about the identity of the other dog.

So they see the dog, certainly.

But there's information about sex,

about maybe their health,

about...

Maybe their age and what they've eaten recently.

But it's not all rump sniffing.

It does look like male dogs are more likely

to approach a new strange dog

and sniff their rump.

But females are more likely to go to the face.

So there's actually a sex difference.

Because both the face and the rump

have a lot of glands around them

that give information, basically,

about who that dog is.

It's just females do it face first

and males go to the rump.

There are times when I have seen

the meeting of...

of the dogs

and the dog will go for the rump

and the other dog is basically...

jumps out of the way.

Is there a protocol

or an etiquette that you observed

before the sniffing of the parts begin?

Yeah, that's a great question.

I think they'll sniff

as long as they can get away with it.

And there's also a mutuality to sniffing.

So, you know,

if I'm sniffing the tail of one dog,

they can sniff the tail of me

at the same time.

So that's convenient.

And that sometimes...

sometimes will happen

before one dog gets worried

that another dog is sniffing too much.

And when the female dog goes...

sniffs the face,

are they getting the same information

as the male dog sniffing the rump?

Some of the same information.

So the information of

odors secreted from glands

are probably kind of identity information.

In other words,

the dog wears their identity

and their smell the way

for dogs we wear our identity

in a smell that we always give off.

But at the rump,

you'd also have probably

information about sexual status.

So that's probably why males

go to the rump first

to see if a female is in heat.

Aha.

And another thing

that I found fascinating

is that not only are dogs

picking up information through smells,

but they're leaving information.

So not only when a dog

sniffs the rump

or the face of another dog,

are they getting information?

But when your dog is walking wherever

and their nose is to the ground

because dogs have,

um, glands on their,

on their paws as they're walking,

they're leaving information everywhere

for other dogs to read.

Basically, right.

I mean, I don't know how intentional

that communicative act is of walking,

but it does leave information.

And sometimes you'll see a dog who,

after urinating,

will scratch the ground mightily.

And one of the theories is it's actually

leaving more information about who they are

from the glandular secretions in their paws.

Okay.

So you just helped explain why,

I could never understand why,

you know,

when cats go in the litter box,

the cats are all like,

okay, let me cover,

I'm covering this up,

but I could never understand why dogs,

when they did the same thing,

excuse me,

um, you know,

like in an open field or wherever,

where you don't have to poop or scoop,

but they would claw at the grass at the ground.

But it's like,

wait, you're not covering anything up.

What is that for?

And what you're saying is they're just saying,

I, I did this.

I left this here.

Yeah, exactly.

It's more.

It's more of a visual signal and an olfactory signal.

And, and I'm not so sure that the cat is actually covering up,

except for the fact that we give intentionally,

I mean,

they are in effect covering it,

but it could be also leaving olfactory information for,

um,

for other cats,

which never come to sniff it.

Yeah.

Um, okay.

So I jumped ahead and I talked about,

you know,

how dogs pee.

Why,

why do dogs pee?

The,

the way they do.

And is it true that only male dogs hike up the hind leg?

Right?

No, that's definitely not true.

Walk through the process because there's a whole process here.

It's not just a willy nilly thing that dogs do.

Yeah, pee is not just one thing,

right?

It's pee.

It's releasing the bladder,

but it's not only that it can be this communicative act and you can leave your odor,

your identity information for other dogs,

because there are a lot of other dogs around.

You don't see them all the time,

but you can leave that information.

They'll get it later.

It's like a bulletin board.

So the males,

especially we'll do the,

what we call the raised leg display and female dogs do this too sometimes,

which allows essentially just a little bit of the urine to be on a higher surface,

easier to smell,

easier to find.

And you'll see that other dogs,

when they find some of that odor from another dog,

sometimes mark in the same place.

We call it marking instead of just peeing.

Right.

Cause I want to get into that because there's a whole thing that we're going.

Yeah.

And so they'll mark in the same place.

Well,

maybe this is where you're going with it,

but it doesn't look like it's trying to territorially marker kind of claim the post or the fire plug or whatever it is.

But instead it's basically just a really good place to leave your scent,

you know,

like a pinning your business card on a bulletin board,

very crowded bulletin.

That's right.

A smelly bulletin board,

which attracted your attention.

And so it will attract someone else's attention to,

well,

a dog be rep,

re repelled by a bulletin board.

No,

no.

And in fact,

they can read,

you know,

all the different messages left on it,

right?

If for us,

it just looks like,

well,

that's,

you know,

messy,

that's just been splashed with urine,

but they are be able,

they'd be able to kind of disambiguate,

tell apart all the different urine smells.

I mean,

and again,

going back to the cinnamon roll example that we started this conversation with,

I mean,

the,

the number of messages that,

that Finn,

your dog is taking in by sniffing the tree bark or the fire plug,

the fire hydrant is in is incredible.

Right.

And in,

in terms of marking.

So again,

I'm watching a dog urinate on something and think you have this term of art.

It's like graffiti.

So this isn't just about,

oh my God,

my dog needs to go and relieve itself.

Yeah.

The,

the dog is doing something.

I think you even timed it.

How long they,

it's like seconds.

Yeah.

Well,

I mean the,

the,

just a P is however,

long it takes to release your bladder,

but you leave,

they leave us the small amount to mark with,

especially with a male dog,

as many different surfaces as they can to leave lots of different message and

like graffitied around the neighborhood for other dogs to pick up.

I mean,

I'm just,

you can tell I'm thoroughly,

I'm fascinated by all level of communication that's happening,

right?

Like right in front of our noses as it were.

And one other thing,

there's the thing that you talked about in,

in dog parks since we're on P,

in dog parks where there's the human who comes in,

sits down on,

on the grass.

And then what happens?

Well,

sometimes they are like a new object in the environment and they might get marked.

It's dangerous.

Right.

And then,

so the person gets marked and then another,

other dogs come by because once you've been,

you've been marked other,

they're like,

Oh,

Hey,

whoa,

what's,

yeah,

what's this thing that they've noticed it.

And they're like,

well,

this is a good place to mark,

I guess.

And they'll make,

so if,

you know,

if you see that happening,

get up quickly,

get up quickly and avert your gaze at the other dog owners laughing at you for,

for what's happened to you.

It's tragic.

I'm Jonathan Capehart in today for lettered low pay.

And I'm speaking with Alexandra Horowitz,

who teaches canine cognition and creative nonfiction at Barnard college and runs

the Horowitz dog cognition lab.

Her latest book is being a dog,

following the dog into a world of smell.

This is WNYC,

MWNYC,

NYC.org.

We'll be right back after a break.

Welcome back to the Leonard Lopate show.

I'm Jonathan Capehart sitting in today from Leonard Lopate.

And today it's Friday and it's please explain.

And if you were listening before the break,

you know,

we were talking all about dogs,

their noses and us,

and we're talking about talking with,

Alexandra Horowitz about her latest book,

being a dog,

following the dog into a world of smell from Simon and Schuster.

We've been talking about pee,

lots of pee.

And so you wanted to do an experiment.

And so you take it from the moment when you applied for the permission or a

grant from,

from,

from the city parks department.

Right.

Yeah.

Well,

one of the things we have to do when we don't know what's happening among dogs,

we don't know how they're communicating is just do a lot of observations.

And so one of the things I wanted to do was look at this marking behavior and

see how they dogs behaved with each other over time.

So I wanted to put a P post essentially in the park.

In other words,

I wanted to videotape what dogs were doing vis-a-vis this P post over time,

where they covering each other's marks,

where they going back and seeing,

you know,

who's who'd been there after they'd been there and so forth.

And so I applied to them to basically leave cameras in the city parks and trained on this,

this post.

And so what did you,

how long did this,

how long did this go on?

We did this for a number of months,

maybe six months,

right?

Oh,

wow.

And so what did you,

what did you learn that you didn't already know?

Well,

it really didn't look like there was any specific over marking.

Of dogs.

In other words,

it wasn't that a dog would sniff something and then just cover it exactly,

right?

There's nothing territorial looking about their marking behavior,

which I thought was,

was really cool.

But another thing is they really seem to identify this,

the mark with a specific dog.

So you'd see them sniff the post where another dog had been,

and then look for the dog around them.

And if their owner let them,

then they'd pursue that dog.

You know,

sometimes there's constrained by their owner,

their owner,

leads them somewhere else.

We're kind of oblivious to how they're communicating or what their intents are

sometimes.

Um,

so they seem to really be seeing it as like a specific message about another

dog.

And so let's say Finn has marked this post,

it's looking around for the dog and then you go on your,

go on your way.

Is Finn still looking for that dog as you're walking away?

Well,

there I have to assume so I don't know exactly,

but yeah,

it looks like Finn hasn't told you.

It's the sad thing about studying non-human animals is they never,

they never tell us in words.

So their behavior looks like they're at least would follow.

They would at least follow and pursue that dog at that moment.

So it's a little bit of like,

um,

leaving a calling card.

And speaking of Finn can't talk to you,

but you do say that Finn wrote half your book.

Yeah.

I mean,

observing my own animals is just amazing compliment to doing the research,

reading about others,

research about the anatomy of the nose,

or watching detection dogs training and then seeing,

you know,

what are the abilities of my animals?

What are they doing on a daily basis that has to do with smell that I wasn't

seeing it that now I can see.

Okay.

So we've,

we've,

we've focused a lot on a lot on P let's move,

move away from P what are some of the other,

other things that dogs that the dogs are doing smells that they are keying in

on?

Well,

one of the things I found interesting on a kind of everyday basis is looking

at ordinary behavior and seeing it,

as olfactory in nature.

So for instance,

you walk out of your building,

my apartment building in the morning,

and you just start in on a walk with your dogs.

It's very typical.

You don't think anything olfactory is happening,

but if I watch my dogs,

what I see is that the first thing they do is their air scenting.

So they're sniffing the air,

which is essentially getting any odors that are being carried down the street on

a breeze.

That might be odors of somebody who I can't see yet,

you know,

a little bit,

somebody we're going to encounter in a few minutes,

a person or a dog,

they're catching that information.

Then they sniff the ground.

So they're getting information about who's passed by before we're there.

So before we've even started on our walk,

they're seeing a little bit of what's happened on the block in the past,

and maybe who's coming up on the block in the future.

And they can tell what the weather is or going to be just sniffing there.

How,

how?

Well,

it does seem like a lot of weather related phenomena have an olfactory

component.

And we kind of know this.

If you imagine that the smell of,

of spring,

for instance,

you know,

we notice seasonal changes and we can sometimes smell seasonal changes.

Well,

even things like a thunderstorm potentially has an olfactory component because

it's following a low pressure system and with low pressure,

then odors that would be trapped in the soil would be loosened and would kind

of rise into the air.

So probably what,

what it feels like before a thunderstorm is really smelly to a dog,

to some,

to a nose that has that kind of sensitivity.

So they'd be alert to it.

Can we talk about dogs that are trained for specific things like that?

Beagle at JFK,

who's sniffing out your,

the cheese that you're trying to bring back into the country or some food

that you're trying to bring back into the country or the dogs in the military

that can sniff out explosives.

How are,

how are they trained?

What's lovely about the detection dogs is that although there are dogs who are

bred to be detection dogs and they're certainly trained to be it,

it's,

they're not being trained to be able to smell those things.

So all dogs can smell those things.

They can smell a small amount of TNT or other explosive.

They can smell the cheese.

Obviously we know all they're being older.

All they're trained to do is to when they notice that smell,

tell us because we seem to care about it.

So they're trained on a small amount of explosives odorant and when they find

it,

if they look at us or they bark or they sit or whatever their alert is,

then they get a reward,

which is usually a game of tug or something like that.

And,

and when you say a small amount,

just for the listener to understand,

but what Alexandra means by a small amount,

we're talking about something as little as a picogram,

right?

A trillionth of a gram,

a trillionth of a gram.

So you're never going to outsmart that.

No,

no,

no.

And if I mean cheese,

come on,

unless you're bringing extremely small quantities of cheese,

right?

But in terms of explosives and things like that,

dogs are highly,

highly attuned,

right?

Absolutely.

That's something that's just part of their sensory environment.

So all they have to do be trained to do is to know that we care about it.

A listener,

Connie Freestone asked on Twitter,

do different breeds of dogs have a distinctive odor?

Oh,

interesting question.

I'm not entirely sure.

It's possible because the,

I mean,

they're genetically more similar than they are dissimilar,

but there are differences,

genetic differences,

obviously between breeds.

And there might be,

you know,

factory component to them.

I,

I have suspected for a while that different breeds of dogs kind of recognize each other.

So you'll see Labradors playing with other Labradors.

And that might be because of the style of play,

but it also might be that they have a smell,

which they recognize and sort of identify with a little bit.

But I don't know yet.

It could be the owners too,

who,

you know,

like want their lab to play with other labs.

Right.

Yeah.

So we don't know.

Humans get involved and it gets all messy.

It complicates.

So,

um,

on sniffing,

you have an example here of,

um,

dogs being used in the Netherlands,

Germany,

Poland,

and some other countries who are used,

um,

in scent identification lineups.

Right.

This I found fascinating.

Talk about that.

Right.

So we all have,

uh,

an odor essentially,

you know,

we give off,

um,

just by existing,

we give off smells and we perspire out that smells and so forth.

So dogs are sufficiently,

reliable in discriminating between these odors.

So,

you know,

your dog is never gonna mistake you for somebody else by smell.

Um,

that in some parts of Europe,

they can use that identifying odor,

um,

to have a dog recognize the odor that was at the scene of a crime.

What they do is they have the suspect hold,

uh,

like a metal bar.

So the person is not present.

They just have the scent that they leave for your hand leaves on the metal bar

and the dog.

And they,

they have the dog kind of match it to the sample that they've been given from

the scene of the crime.

And they seem to be reliable at this.

I mean,

that's amazing.

So,

um,

even if you've committed this crime,

you go home,

you shower,

you do all sorts of stuff.

You do like the Ethan Hawke thing in that movie where he scrubs his skin.

So you're not going to get out with a highly trained dog.

You're just not going to get away unless you remove your skin entirely.

Your skin is emanating smell,

right?

And you're leaving that wherever you go.

So in,

so in theory,

you know,

the room that you've been in smells like you at some level,

right?

And,

uh,

we all know this from,

you know,

growing up with brothers,

you know,

being people,

we know people who are familiar to us,

we kind of know their smell,

whether consciously or not.

Right.

And that's just because of the smell they give off naturally.

So that same thing happens when you go into a new space.

Oh,

this makes me,

I'm,

I'm an only child.

So I have no idea what you're talking about.

Sharon,

a listener from Jersey city is a dog Walker and asks when walking a group of

dogs,

do you let them sniff the ground or keep them walking?

Oh,

I always try to let dogs sniff.

I mean,

to me,

that is their universe.

They're living in a kind of sensory parallel universe to us and to not allow

them to sniff is kind of like pulling,

uh,

I,

I analogize it to pulling your child away from looking at the grand Canyon out

the window as you drive by,

like that's the world to them to not let them sniff is to deprive them of that.

So now,

at some level you have to keep going,

you have to walk along,

but I think lingering and letting them sniff once in a while is,

um,

a great idea.

You know,

it just occurred to me.

So this is why when there are car there,

when we're driving in car,

well,

we,

when people are driving in cars and their dogs,

no matter how big they are,

how small they are,

if they can get their heads out the window and face into the breeze,

they're going to do it because it's infirm.

It's not the,

it's the air,

but it's,

it's not like they love the wind in their face.

They love the information that they're getting from the air,

like olfactory fireworks,

right?

This constant stream of,

uh,

smells coming at them.

It's gotta be fabulous.

It's gotta be right.

Yeah.

All right.

Lev in port Washington,

long Island has a question about dogs.

Hi.

Thanks for taking my call.

So,

um,

my dog has a big bay window that she likes.

She likes to sit at in front of the house and she sees all the cars that come up.

Uh,

and you know,

whether it's my friends or someone who she's never met before,

she's very friendly,

won't bark,

but consistently barks at the mailman.

Um,

I was wondering if there's a,

if there's a science behind that,

you know,

is it something about the mailman being able to access all these different houses?

Uh,

is it a territorial thing?

I was,

I've always wondered about that.

Yeah.

That's a great question.

The United States Postal Service should really fund a study on this.

It seems to me.

Um,

what I would say is typically there's something else that characterizes the posts,

the post office person as opposed to just being the person who delivers the mail,

which is they're the ones who are coming up and not coming into your house.

So your dog is just,

it's not necessarily territoriality,

just alerting the you that there's a stranger there.

It's,

it's a stranger bark.

Whereas if there's somebody that they're familiar with,

they don't need to do that bark as much,

or at least as soon as they recognize them,

they won't.

And if they come into the house,

then there's this whole other,

a way that they can investigate who that is.

But the mailman doesn't do that.

They come up,

leave something and walk away.

So I think all your dog is doing is alerting you to that fact.

What about dogs that no matter how many times you've met them,

they,

the moment you walk in,

there's like,

right,

right.

And then it ends after two to five minutes.

But is that just,

they just can't help themselves?

Well,

there are all types of barks,

right?

There are barks that have to do their barks about,

um,

most barks are not aggressive barks.

There are stranger.

I'm left there,

stranger barks,

but then they're also,

I'm being left alone barks,

you know,

a dog bark and you would,

and actually people who don't live with dogs and don't own dogs are usually pretty good at distinguishing these.

If given the different categories,

there's a play bark.

So it's just a bark of like being excited,

what we would call just an arousal bark basically.

And that's probably what happens when a dog is barking at you,

but then calms down is they're just excited.

And that's one of the ways that they express excitement.

Okay.

We just got this great question from Joanne from Randolph,

New Jersey,

who wrote on our website,

my 13 year old dog has started to cover his full food bowl with towels,

a rug,

anything nearby.

We've not seen this behavior since he was rescued from the streets 11 years ago.

Is he hiding his food or is he telling us he prefers to eat something different?

I love that we read into their behavior,

all these different intentions and communications.

It's really hard to tell.

It's interesting to me that she says there are there,

that was something that the dog did when they just got the dog or,

or in early in their life.

I wonder if there's something else that's changed in this dog's life.

It did the diet change.

Did they get new toys?

The food bowl is something they have some sort of ownership of.

In other words,

that's a place where they know they can reliably go and eat without somebody else taking it.

So it might be just putting everything in the place,

which is yours.

As if the dog,

just discovered it.

But,

but you know,

science hasn't directly addressed this question.

That's my best guess.

I mean,

can dogs talk to us?

They're talking to us all the time.

Okay.

Then let me rephrase that.

Do we understand everything dogs are telling?

I mean,

we certainly put a kind of a,

a vocal tract to everything.

Yeah.

Like Lassie,

what's going on?

Lassie,

we assume they're speaking to us in full sentences and sometimes we even voice what they might be saying,

right?

We talk for them.

We ventriloquize a little bit,

but they're usually,

um,

I mean,

sometimes we're right,

but often we're wrong.

I think the things that we miss are their communicative acts that we don't think of as communications,

like looking at you.

If,

if,

uh,

an owner is at home and the dog needs to go out,

the first thing most dogs will do is not like come up and bark and make a lot of noise about it.

They'll just come over maybe and sit near you.

And that's actually a communication.

It's only if you ignore that,

that then they kind of get closer.

And maybe put their head on your lap.

And then if you ignore that,

then they start pawing you.

And if you ignore that,

then they start barking and you realize,

oh,

then you think that's the first communication my dog's telling me once God,

it's annoying,

but Hey,

he might've been starting to communicate that 30 minutes ago.

It's just that we're not listening in that way.

Yeah.

When the dog takes its snout and it's like,

come on,

let's go.

You're not getting it.

Yeah.

So we've talked a lot about dogs,

noses and,

and sense of smell,

but,

and you talked about this,

this at the very beginning of,

uh,

of the conversation.

And that is the fact that we humans used to be able to smell like that.

And what happened?

You know,

there's a real quick,

there's an argument that maybe we can still smell that well.

It's just that we're not putting our nose up to things and bothering to smell.

We have an aversion to it.

I think it's a shame.

Do you think has your,

has your sense of smell improved since doing this?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I can pay attention to smells.

I've even dreamed in smells,

but I bet you can't smell a trillion cinnamon rolls.

Maybe I don't want to either.

I've been speaking with Alexandra Horowitz who teaches canine cognition and creative nonfiction at Barnard college and runs the Horowitz dog cognition lab.

Her latest book is being a dog,

following the dog into a world of smell.

Thank you,

Alexandra,

very much for being here.

My pleasure.