Talking About “Star Wars” and “Star Trek” History

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Slice of Sci-Fi

Hello and hi. Welcome to another Slice of Sci-Fi.

I'm Summer Brooks and today we are going to talk

Star Wars and Star Trek.

Two of, well,

one favorite franchise of mine and one

casual fan franchise

interest of mine.

Maria Jose Tenuto and John Tenuto are here to talk about

primarily their newest book, the Star Wars

Radio Dramas. Basically how

Brian Daly and Star Wars saved NPR

way back in the day.

And this book is fascinating.

But later we're also going to talk about

their previous book, Star Trek

2, The Wrath of Khan, the making of the classic film,

which is literally my favorite Star Trek thing.

So there I've, I've, I've recovered my geek card.

Welcome John and Maria.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you.

So I am one of those Star Wars fans who barely remembers the radio dramas.

I did not realize the historical significance it played in actually making NPR a household name.

I had no idea that this.

I mean, I've had a few,

I've had a few,

many,

behind the scenes drama even existed.

Al, how did you come across this as a story you wanted to tell to,

to remind people of.

Well, let me go.

Yeah.

Well, you know, I, I, I grew up with it.

I was a big fan of it.

Went to the WBEZ,

which is the radio station in Chicago, that one of the radio stations in Illinois that played it.

And they had a big meet and greet with a fake Darth Vader at the Carson Perry Scott downtown.

And my brother took me to took me to that when I was a little kid.

And that got me very excited for the radio dramas.

I had always liked stories of of films on audio, whether it was the story of Star Wars narrated by Roscoe Lee Brown or, you know,

sort of the kids books, adaptions of some of the Star Trek stories or Star Trek movies, things like that.

I had enjoyed enjoyed that. So this was something I was very excited about.

And then when I heard it, it was really transformative for me. I just loved it.

I loved all the extra scenes they added.

I really appreciated the sound quality, even though I didn't understand the value of it.

I just knew that I liked it. And and so, you know, it always had a very special place in my heart.

And that opened me up to, you know, then learning about, oh, the same person who wrote that wrote the Han Solo books that I loved growing up as a kid, too.

And that all of that kind of coalesced, you know, at that time back in the early.

80s and became a big fan of Brian Daly because of it.

So we both wanted to tell the story of the radio dramas and also the story of Brian Daly,

because we think of the book as kind of like a half half and half biography,

a half biography of Brian and half a biography of the radio dramas that he wrote.

Yeah, the the level of passion and care and attention.

The detail that you ascribe to how he got this to to where it needed to be in order to be broadcast on NPR is is fascinating to me because I I remember those original Han Solo books.

I remember seeing them in the shelves of.

Oh, I don't like it.

It wasn't it was this was before Borders and Barnes and Noble, you know, the little the little the bookstores, Super Crown, Super Crown.

It was like Crown Books.

And then there was the other one, Wonder or something.

Walden Books.

Yeah.

Well, and just.

The Dalton booksellers.

Yeah.

All the greats now long gone.

Yep.

All the little ones that, you know, you walked by in the mall.

And I remember seeing those and going, Han Solo gets his own adventure.

Really?

I'm like, why?

Why doesn't everybody else get their own adventure?

Little did I know, right?

But the.

The history behind how all of this came about is is a fascinating read the.

So one of the first things you mentioned is how so many people.

Involved with those original productions have passed away.

Where did you even start with your, you know, your archeological data uncovering to, to find all the pieces to tell this narrative?

Well, Brian's family was a, it was a great help.

So we spoke to his sister, we spoke to his widow and then his resources are in Maryland.

At the.

University of Maryland, so we were able to, yeah, we were able to get access to that.

So that really helped us with the, with Brian's portion.

And then if you want to.

Yeah.

And then in terms of just I mean, and that was just a mine gold mine of, of incredible materials.

Brian kept literally every newspaper article about his work and his radio dramas and things like that, and just all his paperwork and all his.

Drafts of things.

And that was just incredible.

And then to be able to interview his family was, was also, you know, and, and his friend, James, James Lucino, of course, wrote some really wonderful Star Wars books in his own right.

And the two of them kind of being buddies from, you know, from the seventies onward and writing partners too.

But you know, luckily you know, once, when we contacted.

Contacted everyone once they knew what the spirit of the book was, I think that we, that we wanted to focus on Brian and, and really the, the almost a charitable side of what the radio dramas were about, that they were about bringing Star Wars to people who couldn't necessarily go to see it, or maybe they saw it, but they didn't have the funds to go see it again and again and again or, or, you know, somebody who just, you know, somebody who was blind, who couldn't, couldn't see it.

Yeah.

You could never see it, but could hear it in a way that, you know, you can't get in a, in a Roscoe Lee Brown, you know, 45 minute version of the story of Star Wars or, you know, just listening to the movie because you would miss so much.

And so, and they didn't have that kind of narration for people who were, who had challenges of seeing back then you wouldn't, you couldn't go to a movie and get, you know, earplugs, earbuds and listen to, to some description of what was going on.

And so, once, but once people realized that the book was about Brian, that, that opened up a lot of doors for us because they all loved him so much.

And, and, and really a lot of people helped us along the way.

Dan Madsen was an incredible help getting us in contact with some people.

He's a friend of ours for many, many years.

And, you know, we, we interviewed Tom Vagley and Tom and John Madden are good friends.

And, and so Tom helped us get in contact with John Madden.

And so it was a lot of happy accidents or, or just, you know, networking type of a situation.

And, and other people just, you know, jumped right on board.

Perry King was just so generous with his time and, and Saks.

And, you know, we got to talk with Ann and her son and having her son there was a tremendous, you know, emotional really experience because we got to hear what he, as a kid.

What he thought of, of them.

And so, and his mother and her work.

So some things happen sort of by accident, but it was, it was the, it was one of the longest research periods we've ever had for a book, but it was also one of the most rewarding.

And I think fun and easiest to do in a way, even though it was a lot of hard work because everyone was so generous.

When did you actually say, okay, this is the story.

You want to tell, and, you know, along the way, did you actually get to talk to anybody from the NPR side or see any of their archives?

Well, we got, we, we started this actually a very long time ago.

We started doing a lecture version of it where it was about a two hour long presentation, I guess you could say.

And we had gotten Brian's family's permission to do that.

And we had talked with Richard Toscan, who was the executive producer of, of the radio dramas for, for NPR through KUSC, where he was a Dean of the Performing Arts Department.

And, and even to go back farther, we had a talk on Star Wars.

It was a presentation about Star Wars through the newspapers.

And I think that was even earlier.

We had a segment on the radio dramas.

And then from there we did a presentation.

And then we did a presentation just on the radio dramas.

Yeah, it was some research we had done to call this analog Star Wars.

And it takes a look at Star Wars, the phenomenon of Star Wars from 1977 and actually a little bit before, all the way through till Return of the Jedi era, as it's sort of told by newspapers and look at sort of the cultural influence.

And Mary Jo just reminded me that we, we, we had a portion in there about the radio dramas.

And then that, that kind of got bigger as we continued to research.

And so we, we gave the presentation at Celebration in Chicago in 2019.

And it was then that we decided to take it.

And we had been doing it a few years, just sort of doing it library talks and things like that.

And after we saw the reception at Star Wars Celebration and so many people came up to us and said, oh, could you do a book?

Could you do a book?

We said, well, maybe we should do a book.

So that's kind of when that, that all, that all became a book project.

Well, the book is utterly enthralling there.

I wasn't expecting a narrative history take on it, but it, the way you guys examine each little aspect on how all the elements started to come together and what people were going through at the time when, when they were trying to get this project off the ground.

And the spark of ideas that said, well, hey, let's try this.

And it's like almost being there and watching a little documentary as it's happening.

And that attention to detail really does, I actually don't know if it can be quantified how loving this is towards the people who made this project.

And your attention to detail in making sure everybody else who either barely remembers this or who never knew this.

Existed will enjoy finding out about this.

So this was like I said, this was a lot of a lot of fun to read.

I mean, I'm I'm a history buff and a sci fi geek.

So having them two of them combined like this was a lot of fun for me.

Thank you for saying that.

We we want one of the goals for our books is to celebrate the people who worked on it and people behind the scenes.

And people who.

Don't get a lot of credit for it, especially when you watch a movie and the credits go by and when you watch it on TV, now the credits go by so fast or people can skip the credits.

We really want to put a spotlight on everybody who contributed, who made the film or in this case, the radio dramas just such a success.

Yeah, half the time, the the the end credits don't even scroll by at four times speed.

They're in like a squished little quarter.

Size box in the corner.

And I'm like, really, those people put a lot of work into that and you're just going to scooch them off to the side like that.

OK, fine.

Goodness gracious.

But the.

How available are these dramas because they did one for New Hope, they did one for Empire Strikes Back, they did one for Return of the Jedi.

How available are.

Are they? Because I saw Star Wars.

The the CD is like 50 bucks, but I couldn't find Empire.

Yeah, they they they were on Audible as a download until about about a year and a half ago.

I don't know what what happened there with licensing or or whatever.

They're actually were put out on CD by High Bridge, which is NPR's kind of.

Yeah.

I guess back then you would call their sort of CD arm there, their audio book, their audio music arm, that kind of thing.

And the most recent edition was released about, oh, about seven years ago or so, where they it was for the original Star Wars and it did an MP3 kind of release.

So it's actually on a single disc and then it's you MP3 it to your computer or transfer it over.

And that was done through Tops, which was really cool because they had Randy Martinez had a really great cover.

They had a couple of different covers, good guy cover, bad guy cover.

They were coordinated with a top series of trading cards that basically took the radio drama and put it in art form so you could follow along with it.

Oh, cool.

And that was about, like I said, about seven years ago or so.

It's been a little while.

It's been a little while since that was out.

And but you can certainly find them if you go to, say, an online auction site or something like that.

They there's there's a lot of different varieties.

They released, you know, all three radio dramas on cassette tape, if anybody wants to go that route.

And then, of course, they were all released on CD in various formats individually.

And then as part of like collections, there's a collection that has just Star Wars.

And there's one that has Star Wars Empire and Jedi.

And if you watch carefully, read sort of the description carefully, some of the editions have bonus features, including a making of that was aired at the time, a 30 minute making of that was it's really fascinating.

There's some that have the message to Brian on it, which was that we speak about that in the book.

It was when they were recording Return of the Jedi.

Brian was dying of cancer and couldn't.

And so they on the very last day, they all recorded a message to him in character and then at the end would break character and be themselves.

But like Anthony Daniels wrote his own and Josh Farden did one and Anne Sachs and Perry King did one.

And so they're really, really nice and sweet.

He never got to hear them because he passed away the day they really the day.

They finished recording and but they did play that at his funeral and they do have that on the disc.

So there's some there's some really nice bonus features.

If you if you look for that, of course, you're just buying them second market.

So, you know, you're you're paying second market prices and they become a little more rare as they go along.

My our hope one of the hopes we have is that this will reignite a kind of demand for them because they really I mean, heck, I think they could do something.

I.

This is just me as a fan.

Disney Plus wants to do something that'll get people to come and watch Disney Plus.

One thing could be take the radio dramas, put visuals to them and put them up as sort of like these bonus things.

I mean, to me, that would be great.

I don't know what you know, what rights they have to deal with and all that.

But or just make sure they're released because they really are important historically.

It'd be interesting to find out if the rights to that.

Since it was owned by Lucasfilms, if that actually transfer transferred over with Disney, because, you know, a long time ago, people didn't care about audio rights.

But I could I could see Disney wanting to make sure they had those.

But I would I would tune into Disney Plus to see just the documentary, the making of the first the first series, because that sounds incredible.

Yeah, that was I mean, it was a wonderful Steve Sansweet's book, Star Wars Vault.

I think he did that with Pete Vilmer, if I'm not mistaken, but definitely, Steve, that has if people are interested, that has an excerpt of the the making of special in there, too.

So that's and that's a great that's a phenomenal book that the audio files in there.

There's two CDs.

The audio files are phenomenal.

And I'd recommend it.

Yeah.

I mean, people pick that book up if they ever get a chance to to catch it on the Amazon or something is definitely, definitely worth having.

OK, making notes right now.

Right.

It's one.

I mean, Steve, of course, is just, you know, phenomenal.

We tend to think of them, you know, toys.

But but that that that Star Wars Vault is just a real great piece of, you know, Star Wars history.

It's it's and it's and he collects they collect a lot of really good.

Good audio material in there, in addition to all the great pictures and the text and everything else that's in that book.

For you guys, what was the most interesting or or fascinating thing that you discovered doing your research for this?

Well, I was surprised at how fast of a writer Brian Daly was the first book in the Han Solo trilogy.

He wrote that in just six weeks.

And then for the radio drama, too, he wrote that, I think.

And I think we seen the book like a couple of months.

Yeah.

A couple of months in a in a in a very like efficient apartment.

But yeah, he was just he was a fast writer and just really he clicked with the characters and also realizing how much he contributed to Han Solo's character.

How much is so much of what we know about the character comes from him.

Yeah, I mean, I think I now think of Han Solo as a as a triangle where, of course, at the top point is George, who creates everything.

But and then on the two lower corners are Harrison Ford and and Brian Daly on the other side, maybe with a little a little bit of Lawrence Kasdan in there, too.

But I think there's a there's a lot of who Han is, who Brian contributed.

That that, you know, we kind of chart that in the book as well.

But it's that was something that I didn't when I really started to reread the books and so on and looking at it from a more, you know, historical rather than a fun read kind of thing was very, very fascinating.

And then I love seeing how Brian keeps popping up, how he hasn't gone away, how his influence is still there.

And in the solo movie, they they have.

It's a little nod to him, one of the bad guys, you know, items that he collects is the is in the despot who's on the cover of of one of the Han Solo books.

And then in The Mandalorian, there's a when they go to the droid bar, if that's not Bullock sitting there, I don't know who it is because it certainly looks exactly like him.

It's certainly the same model of droid as Bullock.

So.

And even in the Acolytes.

So the character of Basil, the his species was created by Brian Daly, the tie in.

Yes.

And there's just so many different, you know, and then, of course, he gets wound up.

You know, he's he inspired so many of the writers, Jason Fry and Alexandra Bracken, Alexandra Bracken.

Yeah.

You know, just that his legacy kind of continues.

And that that I, I, I was I was when again, when you start looking around and going, oh, he created the, you know, this and that and the swoop bikes, that was Brian, you know, that was all Brian.

And then it winds up in the movies.

That was that was very interesting to learn.

Nice.

Are the scripts for the dramas available for people to get as well as just the audio recordings of them?

Yeah.

There's that.

Oh, but yeah, there's all three scripts were released.

Brian wrote the four words to the first two.

He had passed away by the time the third one was published.

But Anthony Daniels writes a really beautiful introduction in that in that book.

Definitely worth getting.

They were all all three were published.

You can still find them easily online used bookstores or, you know, online retailers use books.

They're really great to sit and listen to the radio dramas while you're reading them, because you'll you'll you'll notice slight differences, changes that were made while they were recording or when Tom was choosing which take to use.

And that's really fascinating.

Nice, nice.

Because I, I, I am a fan.

Like you said, as a kid, I, I couldn't get enough of The Shadow.

And I, it didn't even dawn on me till many years later that I was listening to stuff that was, you know, probably the same age as my mom and that that Star Wars had a radio drama that became so beloved and then fell off the radar.

But so many people still remember it.

So many people remember how.

It influenced later Star Wars stuff.

This, you know, just just it highlights how important Star Wars is to not just science fiction fans, but, you know, fans of stories or, you know, the way stories are presented, because everybody wants those original movies, you know, the the original theatrical versions to come out on discs someday.

I, I honestly thought that would.

It would be one of the first things that Disney would have released once they got the rights, because, you know, they're all about the cash and lots of people still want those to this day.

But.

Oh, well.

I also think another legacy of Brian Daly is it was the precursor to today's audio books and podcasts and, you know, other long form entertainments.

Yeah.

Finding out that that the.

Sets were really, really popular when they first came out.

I'm like, well, vinyl and cassette are making a resurgence now.

So who knows if somebody has those, they could, you know, pay a pay a chunk of of a bill or something with.

Yeah.

And if if people are fans of Brian is sort of I wouldn't call him lost media, but Brian did actually do the the.

The.

He wrote the story.

Of War Games record.

So if you're a fan of the the Matthew Broderick film War Games, they had a story of on record and that the the narration was written by Brian.

And then he also, of course, did the novelization to Tron, which I think a great novelization, one of my favorites, and he did Rebel Mission to Ord Mantell, which we write about in the book.

But that's kind of a episode.

So I don't think that we see a big.

Zero.

Of the Empire Strikes back, it tells the story of what happened on board Mantel with on different voice actors than the radio dramas.

But it fits is exactly the same length as a radio drama episode.

It has the same rule about narration only comes in at the beginning.

At the end.

It was written, you know, with the radio drama in mind.

And so it was.

Definitely.

It's worth checking.

Out.

tape or whatever, um, um, as well. And of course then Brian has his whole, just an incredible

library, uh, of his own works. Um, the, the Karamondi duology, the books he wrote with

James Lucino for Robotech, the, the, um, which a lot of those were original, not adaptive. They

were sort of original stories. Um, you know, um, his, uh, his, uh, he has a trilogy of, uh, you

know, about, um, uh, two characters, uh, Floyd. Um, and they go, they kind of have this adventure

and it feels a little bit like Star Wars and it, but it's its own thing. And there's a lot of great

books, uh, by Brian on his own, uh, that he, that he did that are just, I mean, if you really want

to see his talent, I think read his original novels where he isn't sort of, you know, expanding

on someone else's ideas, but only, only hit, you know, coming from his own imagination. And it was

an incredible imagination.

The original, I'm going to say it was a Han Solo trilogy, but I think they were more than just a

three, but the original three that, that, that Brian wrote, are those back in print? Cause I

know 20 years ago, you couldn't find them for less than a hundred bucks each.

Yes. October, I think October, November this year, they're going to be released, re-released,

uh, as part of that legends, um, essential legends line. So yes, a brand new cover,

um, and, uh, all three are being collected together. They just did that for the Lando

Calrissian, uh, trilogy. And so they're, they're doing that for Brian's books as well. I think it's

with, it's within a month or two, it's going to happen.

Okay. That's good. That's good to know. Cause like I said, the last time I looked for them,

it was 20 years ago and I looked at the price and went, Oh, not today.

Okay. So let's, let's shift things a little bit to from Star Wars to Star Trek.

Now I'm, I'm a casual Star Trek fan. Uh, I didn't really get into the series until

Next Generation came along. And I thought I, I was sort of mixed feelings about the original series,

but when Wrath of Khan came out, I was blown away. I saw that in a theater. I'm like,

Oh, why isn't the entire original series like this? Cause I'm, I'd be there,

I'd be there for it. And I just, you know, I put Wrath of Khan up there, probably one of my

top 10 favorite sci-fi films. Um, and I even, I co-edited a book about the women of the original

series, Star Trek came out earlier this year. And I learned so much more about the original series,

reading the essay.

And so I've been reading a lot of the essays of these folks and Wrath of Khan, uh, was a favorite.

One of the, one of the chapters is about Carol Marcus and I learned stuff about her and her

background that wasn't in the movie. So I'm like, Oh, okay. So I still have more Star Trek to learn.

Fine. But what about Wrath of Khan made you dive in?

Cause it's not like you did the motion picture first and then Wrath of Khan, you went straight to

Wrath of Khan. Well, those, yeah, go ahead. I was going to say the, um, they already did the

first, the motion picture book. Um, and similar to Star Wars, we had a presentation on Star Trek

and on Star Trek two, um, that we were giving to libraries and conventions. And so, um, it was from

there.

Yeah, it was, uh, we, um, we had, uh, 15 years ago or so approached, uh, Nicholas Meyer because we,

we knew that at, uh, the university of Iowa, they had all his papers and all his collection of

stuff. And then we learned that there were photos there, um, and not just photos, the contact sheets

for, for, um, Wrath of Khan, which, um, for those who aren't familiar with the contact sheets,

there,

there's almost always a set photographer, at least back in Hollywood's original days, but still

today. Um, and the set photographer was there all the time taking hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

of photos. And they were, they would be put onto what were called contact sheets. They were literally

like, like little slides, one right next to each other. And then from there, they would choose

stills, um, publicity photos, things like that. And then they would also have actual publicity,

you know, actual shoots.

But, um, there were, we went through these pictures and they were the most amazing

photos we had ever seen. I, I grew up with Wrath of Khan. I saw it on opening day,

uh, back in June 4th, 1982. I've been in love with it my whole life. Um, and I saw photos there

that I had never, ever seen before. And I, and I was pretty sure that a lot of other fans had not

seen these pictures before. So we had asked Nick Meyer for permission to digitize them.

And to show some of them at library talks, as long, you know, we wouldn't make a profit on it.

We would just want to share it with, with people. And he said, sure. Um, that we wound up giving

those at some of the conventions. I, I think the people at Paramount heard us give the talk. Um,

and when the time came for Titan to, they did start the really wonderful, beautiful

art book for Star Trek one. Uh, when it came time to do Star Trek two, um, Titan called us and said,

you know, Paramount said to you, the,

you might be interested in doing this and would you be interested in doing it? And I was like,

why are you asking? Uh, thank you. Yes, please. Uh, and, um, so that's how we, we kind of got

that book and it's, uh, uh, it was wonderful because it was, um, you know, we had all the

resources of, of, you know, Paramount and all the archives and all of that to, to, to delve into

again, uh, uh, uh, this, a similar situation, uh,

also complicated back then by the pandemic. We, we did that book during the pandemic. So it was

very, couldn't really travel and, you know, go to libraries and that kind of thing and do research.

But, uh, of course that's the least of the problems people had with that, but that was,

it was a challenge. And also- The biggest challenge was so many people, um,

we had lost so many people, right? I mean, we, we would want, you know,

but luckily we were able to speak with some, with people that were close to those that we lost. So,

so Julie Nimoy, uh, who did the forward for the book, um, Anita Montalban, Anita Montalban, uh,

you know, people who, who were, you know, with their fathers, I mean, and in Julie's case,

literally with her father every single day on set, cause she was a, uh, production assistant

on Star Trek too. Um, and, and Anita, you know, speaking with her father frequently, um, we,

we were able to learn a lot about Leonard and, and, and, and, and Ricardo's approaches to,

to the film and to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the,

to, to, to the making it, you know, bring, coming back to, to those characters and those

situations. So, um, uh, you know, that was, again, it was, uh, and, and, and then when we got into

Paramount's, uh, Paramount's archives had even more photos. And so it was just like, the tough

thing was choosing which photo, which photo, cause we would have wanted to have an 8,000 photo book

in there, you know, you just can't. Yeah. The photos that are in this book are,

are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are,

gorgeous. And the, as, as, as coffee table books go, I would put this in probably my, my top 10,

my top five. And I wouldn't leave it on the coffee table because, you know, people would

swipe it, but it's, it's a, it's a tribute to not only the film, but the, the resurrection

of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the,

I think of the franchise because the emotion picture sort of got people thinking about Star

Trek again, but Wrath of Khan really, really drew in people who hadn't been big Star Trek fans

before. And, you know, I, I count myself as one of those and this, this book does a great service

to, to that memory. So thank you for that.

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, that was, that's always our goal in everything that we do is to, is, you

know, you know, I, you can focus on the sort of the dirt or the, or the conflicts that occur

for us, you know, it, it, I, I think it's more important to celebrate the people who made it.

We would never publish anything negative, especially if, you know, a person doesn't

have a chance to defend themselves, you know, if they, you know, we wouldn't want to do that.

So but there really wasn't a whole lot. I mean, there were, there were, there were some

challenges faced. There was limitations, time, budget. I mean, there were a lot of struggles

for them when they made this film and not everybody, you know, it was not always sunshine

and happiness. There were, there were conflicts about the title. There were conflicts about the

script. There was, you know, there were conflicts, but people talk to one another. They, they listened

to one another. They tried to compromise with one another and they, they, and then,

in some instances, not compromise, but, but, but explain why they were doing something a certain

way. And so we really felt it important to, to celebrate what, cause this film is just,

is beloved and should be. It's, it is a wonder, it's a wonderful movie and a wonderful Star Trek

movie, which is something that can be two different things sometimes, but it's a wonderful

movie in and of itself. And, and, and it's got a cleverness to it and a wit to it.

And an emotion to it. And it's everything that you want, you know, that's summer of 82, right?

A lot of great sci-fi came out then, but it was that, it was that time of sci-fi when ILM was just

making it possible for us to take what we had envisioned in our minds and books and begin to

put it up on the screen in a way that hadn't been done before. Of course, they started that with

Star Wars and continued that through, uh, till, till,

till today, but it's, but it was that, that era of just a lot of, um, a lot of geniuses. I think

back then, I think we throw that word around a lot now. And, um, I don't know how many there are

anymore. I'm not one of them, but, uh, I'm not smart enough to know that, but I, but in terms

of the art side of things, I mean, just incredible people who had, who didn't have computers to aid

them, um, didn't have, uh, uh, you know, uh, the concept of a franchise was still,

kind of a new concept. Um, everything being done really like, how can we do this with what little

money we have and what little time we have and just figuring their way out.

And just being resourceful, like repurposing, um, costumes from, uh, the motion picture,

dyeing them, um, and reusing things.

Using eight cartons for the, you know, for the walls and the, and the, you know, just

fantastic ideas.

Ideas like that. Um, uh, you know, that, that, that really, it is, it's a, it's a question of

how do you, how do you make do? And I think that's a great lesson period. Like how do you live with

limitations? Like we all face them, whatever they might be physical, emotional, financial,

everybody's got limitations. And how do you, how do you circumvent those and, and still achieve

your goal? And I think that was kind of the big theme of, of, of that book.

Yeah. I'm a, I'm a huge,

fan of practical effects. I, I don't know if that's with, you know, my, my enjoyment of horror

movies, you know, the preferring the, the practical, you know, the dude in the costume

over some, you know, digital creation back in the background. But I, I worry that the, the craft

of making spaceship models by hand is something that could someday be a lost art because everybody

wants to,

you know, generate these 3d models digitally, but it, at some point you want to hold that model in

your hand, you know, if you're a sci-fi fan, you, you want that spaceship, you know, on your shelf.

Yeah. You know, the when you, when you look at who some of the most popular characters are

in, in star Wars, even in the new star Wars there, you know, Grogu is a practical effect for the most

part.

It's a puppet and it's practical. And you know, BB-8 was a practical effect. The, the, what are those

little guys you like? There were no squeezy, you know, and, and Zellens, you know, those are

practical. And, and, and so there's a certain charm. I, I, one of the things we were so happy

to learn when we were at celebration about Mandalorians, that was sort of the first time

they showed anything about it, um, was that they were,

going to start using a little bit of practical effects again, that they were going to, that there

were models and that, that thing that, that recognition, I think in the industry, that

there's times to use a computer and then there's times to use a practical effect. In fact, I think

one of my favorite moments ever, uh, at a star Wars convention, any convention, uh, was listening

to, to, to, uh, Rob Brito talk about solo. And, um,

and how, uh, there was a moment in the movie when, um, Han is in the cockpit and, and Lando takes the

Falcon to light speed. And they did it in what was sort of the early version of the volume,

kind of that, that type of thing. So it was a, it was sort of a mixture of the

old world, right? When you watch the old TV shows and people are driving a car and you could tell

that they were not in a car and that it was, you know, fake background and they're, you know,

driving and it's all, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,

you know, with computers and it's sort of mixing the two together because there really was a star

field outside the ship and how it caught a little bit of, um, that light got caught a little bit in

the actor's eye. Um, and, and so if you look at his eye, when the camera spins around, there's

little flex, the little, the stars are going in his eyes and, and they were talking about how they

might not have, they might not have thought to animate that. Like if, if they had done that,

where he was looking at nothing, but by having it, uh, you know, uh, kind of this blend of the

modern technology, the, the 4k, you know, uh, volume type of stuff with the old fashioned

driving your car and, you know, it's behind you, um, that, that, that gave that a really nice

set of like a realistic element to it. And I think that's, I think where they, where they

need to go is where it's, it's how do you, how do you use the computers when you need to use it,

but does it have to be computer? Can it be a practical effect? Because there's really no,

there's no, there's no beating a real model if it's lit right. And if it's filmed, right,

there's no CG can't touch it. I don't think. Yeah. I'm, I'm with you there. Truly with you there.

And speaking to your love of wanting to, you know, have that and hold it in your hand.

Um, I think it also speaks to the ships being, um, a beloved character in the film.

So, um, the millennium Falcon, the enterprise, that is a character just as much as, you know,

Kirk or, or, um, you know, Luke or Han are characters. And, um, so when, you know,

like in Star Trek three, when the enterprise is destroyed, there were people upset about that.

Some people even like, um, writing hate mail about that, you know, um, just shows you how

strongly attached people are to.

to the ships and you know the love of the ship continues you know hallmark um makes the when

they make an ornaments they always include the ships as well yeah that was a great idea on their

part somebody was like that's that's inspired mad genius you go so are you guys working on

anything else new that you can talk about we are working on two new things but we can't talk about

them yet but they're both star trek related oh uh and uh we're working on it today we've been

interviewing people and getting photos and all that kind of stuff so hopefully we'll be able to

mention soon what it's about but uh i'm very excited about about that and um uh you know

very excited about what uh hopefully what the reaction will be to our radio drama book we're

hoping that uh uh it can kick start a little bit

and you know remind people who who used to listen to it what they were about and

and uh and uh give people maybe new fans who's new to the new to star wars um say hey let's go

listen to this especially if you love i mean if anybody loves podcasts and things like that

and you've never listened to star wars radio dramas you're i envy you because you're you're

in for an incredible treat yeah i'm i've been like looking around to see where i can listen to

because for me the audiobook for rogue one was one of the most delightful things i ever heard i

mean they went to a lot of uh depth in not only bringing those characters but the the background

sound effects are just it just creates the atmosphere and it's it's literally one of the

most fun audiobooks i've listened to in a long time so i you know

know literally star wars probably brought that to the table for a lot of people and just continues

to to to lead the way in some cases yeah george george lucas always said sound is half the motion

picture experience and um they i think they've always done a really great job with those audio

books there's there's you know even in the even in the proto the the the jurassic era of audio dramas

back in the 90s they were smart enough to put the music on there and

some of the sound effects but now they're just they make them and they're they're so immersive

um you know that they it's almost like you you know you you want to get the book read it while

you listen to it you know how you listen to it and so you wind up buying it twice nice so where's

the best place for folks to find you guys online to keep track of these secret projects and when

you'll be able to start talking about them yeah i think that's a good question i think that's a good

place to start talking about them uh facebook's the best uh we have a if you just follow us we

share an account it's just under john tenuto so if you search for it you see the cover of the radio

drama book that's us um and uh we try to put a little bit of star wars stuff now and again star

trek stuff uh now and again um try to support our friends and their projects and uh and then

we always let people know if we're doing a library talk or do you think we're doing one in october

and uh which one is that star trek rathacon oh we're doing rathacon so we're doing rathacon for

uh which library do you know i hope you know um i think it's mchenry mchenry i think for mchenry

county library we'll post that on our facebook um those are always free those are just we want

to give the information to fellow fans and celebrate with them and um uh that's a great

place to reach us just on facebook we're on twitter but i never

have it it's it's there's too many there's too many social media accounts i won't pay attention

to anything so i'm just i'm old so i'll stay with facebook i'll stay with facebook and have my

lemonade don't forget to lean back in your rocking chair and shake your fist get off my lawn i am i'm

retired now so i you know if you're tired from teaching so i'm ready cool well maria john thank

you so much for your time today and like sharing

your passion for you know both star trek and star wars by paying such loving attention

with these books it's i'm i'm like i said the the wrath of khan book is probably one of my favorite

uh coffee table books and the the historical narrative in the star wars radio dramas books

really is is a compelling read thank you thank you thank you so much thanks for inviting us and

for the kind words

and we'll be back with more slices hi-fi right after this

escape pod the free science fiction podcast brought to you by escape artists

i rippled a welcoming cadence of light beneath my skin and then seeing the newcomer

all that sheet caught us in my mind made my best approximation of a smile

to llix or transgalactic lounge each week

one story told well she should have never come back to this god's forsaken

junk heap of a space station but she couldn't help but miss it when she was away for too long

from the most astonishing and visionary storytellers of the genre but because time is a

trick of the mind it can be hacked and we have gotten good at it we have been wastefulTONic

XT

had to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts or find us on the web at escape pod.org and on

patreon under ea podcasts hey guys this is arjun gupta from sci-fi the magician you are listening

to slice of sci-fi again the book is the star wars radio dramas brian daly and the serialization

that saved npr it's available now you can find it on amazon now or your other favorite

online retailers uh from mcfarland

it is a truly

fascinating read and there will be a book review of it up shortly and the

Star Trek to make a wrath of Khan making of book is also available if you're a

fan of Star Trek or coffee table books or making of type tomes this is a

gorgeous one the artwork alone is more than worth the book the historical

photos and the just the behind the scenes details for the movie are

wonderful and like I said it's one of my favorite sci-fi movies it's the only

Star Trek movie I own and yes I did dive in and buy

it. it's one of the only Star Trek movies I own and yes I did dive in and buy it.

the 4k that came out last year because if I'm going to own Wrath of Khan why

not own it in 4k ultra-high def I mean really why not I'm gonna try to look for

those audio dramas see if they're available anywhere maybe maybe audible

still has them maybe somebody else is streaming them I there are used copies

out there for the first one the Star Wars one it starts at 50 bucks and goes

up the Empire Strikes Back one is I didn't find any copies of it anywhere

there was one copy of Return of the Jedi on eBay but it's sold like six months

ago or something like that anyway they're out there somewhere

and maybe maybe this book can help jumpstart Disney into re-releasing those

audio dramas in some format who knows but how about you what stories what

other franchises would you be interested in listening to audio drama productions

of there are a lot of them out there

anyway call in let me know the number is 602-635-6976 or send me an email

summer at slice of sci-fi dot com you can also come to the website slice of

sci-fi dot com and leave your questions or comments in the discussion section

for this episode you can also follow us and chat with us on Twitter and Facebook

Twitter and blue sky on Twitter it's at slice of sci-fi on blue sky it's at slice of sci-fi

dot com and start a conversation there's a lot of stuff that I will chat about in science

fiction and horror in television movies books sports and even sometimes music you can listen

to slice of sci-fi on Apple Podcasts and YouTube and in the description section below.

Thank you for watching and have a wonderful day.

Have a nice week.

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Uh, again, thank you for your support in, in all its formats. Your,

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Bye.

Spice

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