Podcast: Defeating gender inequality in Georgia with the Disruption Network Lab

Hello, and welcome to the Global Voices podcast, your weekly dose of global news and local voices.

Your host today is Arzu, regional editor for South Caucasus and Turkey at Global Voices.

I'm speaking to you today from Istanbul, Turkey.

In each episode, insiders from our community share what news matters more in their communities

and how they build their stories out of the local context.

On today's podcast, we bring you stories from Georgia, the country, and the South Caucasus.

Specifically, we're going to talk about the findings of a recent research project called Defeating Gender Inequality,

implemented by the Disruption Network Lab in partnership with the Regional Development Hub Caucasus.

The project focuses on the development of gender equality in the South Caucasus.

The project, funded by the German Federal Foreign Office, aims to strengthen civil society cooperation

to advance gender equality and female participation across all spheres of life in Georgia,

which I assume is no easy task.

To talk about the report, joining me today on this podcast are Maya Talakhadze and Yekaterina Khotsitashvili,

both authors of the recent study.

And I apologize in advance if I misread your names.

Maya is a director of Regional Development Hub Caucasus and brings in years of experience working on media development

and more recently on gender issues in Georgia.

Yekaterina previously worked for the Permanent Mission of Georgia to the UN

and throughout her career focused on human rights, gender inequality, and other pertinent issues.

Prior to her work at the UN, Yekaterina worked at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia, holding various positions.

Welcome on our podcast, Maya and Yekaterina.

Hello, Arzu. Thanks.

Hello. Hello. Thank you.

Also joining us today is freelance journalist Emi Thun.

I hope I pronounced the last name right from Germany.

Currently, Emi is enrolled in a master's program studying journalism and communication sciences.

In September, Emi was on a research trip in Spenlisim, the capital of Georgia,

where she took part in a program of the Civil Society Foundation

and worked on an article about structures against domestic violence

in the United States.

A warm welcome to you too, Emi.

Thank you. Hello.

Now, with no further ado, I would like to first start with this report

you are soon to publish, Maya and Yekaterina.

From our previous conversations we had ahead of this podcast,

Maya, you mentioned that the idea for this research came to you during the pandemic.

Can you tell us a bit more how it happened exactly?

What made you decide?

Over to you.

Thank you, Arzo, and thanks for organizing this podcast.

Yes, as we have already talked about this,

the idea came to us, to our IDH caucuses and also with Disruption Network Lab

that we wanted to do something for the women who became victims

in that difficult period of time since they were at home.

It was not a problem.

It was not a problem only for Georgia.

It was a global problem for many women who became like they had to stay at home

with the perpetrators of domestic violence.

This was the period, it was autumn 2021 when we decided to apply for this grant program

and before we have conducted together with Disruption Network Lab

two different projects on absolutely different topics.

One of the projects that was connected to polarization and media diversity in Georgia,

but that was the time in 2021 when we decided to work for most acute issue

that was identified during the pandemic.

That was, I would assess it as a good choice and a good idea

and a good start of cooperation in this regard.

Thank you, Maya.

This is fascinating and I absolutely agree that yes indeed issues

that women specifically faced during the pandemic were quite visible

not only in Georgia or South Caucasus but across the world.

Now, a follow-up question to both of you, Maya and Ekaterina.

What were the two most important findings of the report?

I mean, I remember reading it, looking at some of the findings

that you've shared with us.

You know, there were many things.

But for me, what stood out, there were a few items.

And I'm wondering if they align with yours.

I remember femicide numbers.

I remember research that was done on sexual harassment at work.

What, for you, were the most important findings?

Do they overlap with what we thought was quite interesting?

So we, at the very beginning, from the outset,

we have identified four main directions.

And therefore, we worked in details in these four directions

and all of the findings and recommendations are coming from that four.

I would say these four directions.

And then Ekaterina will continue about the main findings in these directions.

First of all, we decided to work on sexual harassment at work

because recently Georgia adopted some legislation towards this kind of issue.

And we wanted to assess it.

We wanted to assess what was on place in practice.

So first one was sexual harassment at work.

Second one was domestic violence.

Third one, economic state of women in Georgia.

And also, the last one, also their political participation.

So as Maya mentioned, during the research,

we were focused on four main directions.

And in four of the directions,

we found main developments, positive and negative ones,

at legislative and at operational levels.

So as regards to, I will start with the sexual harassment in the workplace

and briefly evaluate the situation right now.

Currently, the legal framework and the existing mechanisms in Georgia

provide protection for victims of sexual harassment.

But the rate of sexual harassment appeals, it's still low.

So we tried to carry out the interviews, kind of questionnaires.

We organized the questionnaires and sent to all the ministries in Georgia.

And we had an opportunity to evaluate the situation

in the public service of Georgia.

And according to the research, there are several institutions,

only five ministries out of 12 ministries in Georgia,

who have already introduced

internal sexual harassment complaint mechanisms in place.

And several of them are in the process of implementation.

So two ministries, Ministry of Internal Affairs and Ministry of Education,

are in process of implementation,

internal complaint sexual harassment mechanisms.

And interesting was also that even though

in only four or five ministries this mechanism is operational,

I found out that only two cases were reported in only one ministry.

So it means that even though the ministries work hard

to inform the employees about their rights

and about the existing mechanisms,

their reporting rate is still low.

And it was only in 2020,

2020 years of information,

and only two cases were reported.

All right.

So there were a few things I wanted to follow up on.

And I guess to me,

one of the most interesting things that stood out

from the breakdown of the research that you just shared

was the rate of reporting being low

in case of sexual harassment at workplaces,

whether it's ministries or within private sector.

And I was wondering whether it's because

it's something that was introduced very recently,

as in this being kind of new regulation

and women perhaps didn't feel comfortable enough,

or is it because women think that

these measures may not be helpful to them?

Or is it just something else?

Is it maybe part of the culture?

Do you think you've heard or maybe came across

some interesting examples of why they weren't using it?

It would be great to hear your perspective on that.

So there were several reasons.

The first and most important was that

in some agencies,

there are no internal mechanisms on the prevention

and the response to sexual harassment.

You know, institutions should be interested in this thing.

And as regards to examples,

some of them, they don't feel comfortable

because of the fact that

their reputation will be negatively perceived by the society.

And when we help them,

for example,

the interviews with the women,

we just found out that there is an awareness about,

for example,

in case of sexual harassment mechanism in the workplace,

it was,

they were aware of this mechanism.

In some cases where the mechanism was available

in the workplace,

but they were hesitant because of the opinion of the colleagues

and

because of the

future opportunities for career promotion and et cetera.

So there are kind of several reasons they were,

they responded to our questionaries

in case of sexual harassment.

And if I can specify in case of domestic violence

and opportunities to apply for shelters

for the victims of domestic violence

or potential victims of violence,

they think that

they are not strong enough to use this opportunity.

And they still think of the opinion of society

and how their activity

and their decision will be perceived by the society.

So it's kind of a situation

when the law gives them opportunities

to protect their rights,

but because of the societal pressure,

they do not enjoy their rights.

That's very,

that's very interesting.

Thank you.

Thank you for your time.

Can I add here also one thing?

Also,

when we were assessing the information

that we got from the public institutions,

and we need to highlight here that

our research was not,

like the scope of our research,

as I have mentioned from the very beginning,

was not very big

because it was like short period of time.

And also the scope of it was like,

the whole scope was not very, very big.

But I would say that it is still,

it was like possible to find out

the most important,

important principles

and most important acute challenges,

I would say.

When we got the information from the institutions,

we found out that those agencies

who are making continuation

of the training programs

and awareness raising campaigns,

those two,

as Ekaterina mentioned,

those two complaints

in the workplace regarding sexual harassment

were identified in these agencies

where they give and deliver trainings

and they give kind of raising awareness campaigns.

So this gave us insight

to think that these kind of campaigns

and these kind of trainings really work.

And this might have influence

on the perception of,

of women on their rights,

execution of their rights,

et cetera, et cetera.

And what I wanted to highlight once again was that,

yes, we have considered those information

and those reports

that have already been published

by other organizations

and other state institutions

connected to private sector.

But we have only considered these facts,

the sexual harassment on work

in the public institutions.

And it does not cover,

for example,

all of the private enterprises

or business sector or something.

But we choose this part

because it is most important part

because of its nature

that you are working in a public institution

that is funded by the government,

by the state budget

and most acute problem

connected to sexual harassment

would be that part

and not private enterprises.

But there might be like numbers

of sexual harassment

also in private sector as well.

Sure, sure.

Thank you.

Thank you, Maja.

I mean, I would,

I would like to turn to you now, Emily.

You know, you,

you heard what,

what Maja and Ekaterina had to share

and you recently visited Georgia

and you published this really great story.

I'll buy it.

It's on a very depressing topic of femicides.

So what was, you know,

during your trip to Georgia,

during the time that you spent there

doing research for this story,

what was the most striking theme

that you discovered

or some of the narratives

that you've discovered

while on the assignment

and how much of that actually overlaps

with what you've already heard

from Maja

and Ekaterina?

Thank you in advance.

Actually, a lot of things overlap

with what Maja and Ekaterina said,

because in the interviews I did

with lawyers

and women who run women's shelters,

for example,

or activists,

they also mentioned

some of those problematics exactly.

And I think one most striking theme was

that the mentality was mentioned,

that there still is

some kind of structural thinking

in familiar structures

and some kind of patriarchal mindset

that many people still have

and which makes it very hard

for women to tell their own truth

and to seek justice.

And it kind of goes into one other theme,

which is that the problem

of gender sensitivity in courts

were mentioned very often,

like that there are good laws

which have been implemented,

but they remain unenforced many times

and women remain under huge pressure

to pursue what bad things

have been done to them.

But since there is not much sensitivity

in court about these new laws

and about these new topics,

it's many times very hard for them

to pursue justice in the end.

And I think that were striking themes

which I discovered when talking to people.

And also I found very interesting,

I mean, next to the main findings,

the findings about domestic violence,

that Maja and Ekaterina mentioned

that they think it's a great lack

of opportunity to seek shelter.

If you are a woman in Georgia

who has suffered violence

or domestic violence,

and I also had that impression

when I talked to several different shelters

and heard about how long

the waiting lists are to get a space

for a long-term stay

to have the chance to recover

from what happened.

And I mean, that is just talking about violence

and experiencing violence

and not about femicides.

And I think regarding that,

I can just say that my impression

of my research,

which was also focusing on that,

is that the patriarchal mindset,

which still remains,

although there are many positive changes

and still going on many positive changes,

is still very, very broad

and very common.

Which leads to situations like that

and to dependence

and violent relations,

which sometimes lead to that.

Although I also heard that since 2014,

especially where many activists

started to raise awareness

for this topic in Georgia

after many femicides happened,

the situation,

and especially the public awareness,

has raised as well.

Thank you for sharing those narratives,

those examples.

You know what really stood out

from what you said

was the fact about having a waiting list

even to get into the shelters.

The fact that there is a waiting list,

it also, I guess,

is indicative of the fact that there are

so many cases of abuse

and violence against women

that these women are seeking shelter

to protect themselves

and likely their children as well.

Thank you once again for that.

So having listened to three of you,

it looks like there has been significant progress

in addressing gender equality

and equality in Georgia,

but that is not enough.

There are laws,

there are new regulations,

there are new mechanisms in place,

but still there are some gaps,

there are some challenges,

and of course this mentality,

the issue of mentality,

which isn't just specific to Georgia.

We're seeing it all across the Southern Caucasus

that it also proves an obstacle.

So what do you think is missing?

Maya, you mentioned earlier in our correspondence

and our discussions ahead of this podcast

that films and literature were used

as storytelling tools.

How effective these have been

and what else should be done,

could be done?

And you can see now also,

if you could,

after Maya shares her experience

or her thoughts,

if there's anything you would like to add on top of that,

perhaps you could share a few recommendations

to civil society organizations in Georgia

and perhaps state institutions too.

So over to you, Maya,

if you could share with us

your thoughts on films and literature

as a storytelling mechanism,

as storytelling tools.

So when we started working on the scope of the project

defeating gender inequality in Georgia,

we were thinking about

the activities,

what can we do within the project

in order to face all the challenges that we had.

And storytelling mechanism

like feminist literature

and movie screening

was identified one of the activities

to cover in the project.

And why did we do that?

The main reason is that

actually the whole

problem,

the whole challenge of gender inequality

is much more deeper

and much more bigger

than law can do anything in it.

So as we have already mentioned a couple of times,

there are some improvements,

there are some laws,

recent regulations

that try to somehow improve the processes,

but still the situation

remains almost the same.

I don't talk about

political participation

that the number increases,

but remains still very low.

We put these activities in the project

to give some insights

to women to work on themselves.

So me personally,

I'm also a woman

and we are here,

all of us are women.

And I think that

it of course matters

what kind of regulations

and what kind of laws

does the country provide to its citizens.

But we need to work ourselves,

on ourselves.

We need to think more.

We need to do more

to empower each other.

And this kind of possibilities

like literature and films

give us insights

how to be stronger,

how to be more powerful.

I would give you one example

actually why it was actually

my idea

to put some literature

part in the whole project,

because I do remember

one period of my life

when it was not very good period.

I would assess it

kind of so-called weak period

in terms of emotionally,

in terms of social status.

I don't know,

not very good period.

And I happened to be,

to remove,

to replace house

and to,

to move in a flat

where there was a lot of books.

And I do remember how reading

and how specific literature

connected to kind of feminist literature

did help me to feel better

and to feel empowered.

So I do not say

that this is a kind of magic

that you read something

and you became stronger,

you became,

I don't know,

more powerful.

But it helps you a lot.

It gives you insights

and it helps people,

this kind of things,

not only reading,

not only literature,

but other things

that really help

to have our opinions,

our attitude towards something

and our position

and our willingness

to defend ourselves,

to use our rights.

So I think that this has,

like,

when we are talking about the issue

that is much more bigger

and much more multifaceted,

then it is just one problem

connected to policy.

We need to work directly

with the people

to work together,

to communicate to each other,

to empower each other

and to give them insights

and to be insightful,

to do something

that will help us

to be more strengthened

and more powerful.

So that's why we have decided

to have these two parts.

And I have to say that

these literature nights

and movie screening

had a very good feedback

from the participants

and they encouraged us

to continue this kind of issue,

this kind of activities

also in future.

So this was that I wanted to say

that if I sum it up,

even though there is legislation,

there is policy

and even though it is executed

well or not,

there is still some room

that we ourselves,

women,

need to do

and to work on ourselves.

And we need some cultural things

that would have influence

also on mentality,

as you mentioned,

also on society's point of view

and et cetera, et cetera.

So this was the main reason

why we decided to have it.

And I think that it had

a positive influence

on Georgian society,

at least on the participants

who participated in these events.

And in terms of recommendation,

I would give the floor

to Ekaterina.

Before Ekaterina takes over,

I would like to just say one thing

to one of the things

that you mentioned, Maya,

this moment of weakness

that you noted.

I wouldn't call it

a period of weakness.

I would call it

a period of self-reflection

and self-learning

because I'd rather not,

you know, describe these moments

as weaknesses.

I think it's just a way

for us to learn

and discover more about ourselves

and what we can do.

Over to you, Ekaterina.

Thank you, Arzu.

I would just add

the issue of what is needed

and what is the process.

As we did the research,

we found out that

the communication strategy

carried out by the government

works well

and it's a way

and it's regular

and it's obligatory.

But still,

I need to agree

with Maya

that we had to directly work

with the people

here in Georgia

by means of culture,

literature, movies.

So we need to use

other means of communication

because it's the communication

carried out by the government

is the other side.

And the other way

that the means of communication

and the culture

and the literature

works well

and we should

and civil society

should be focused

on this direction more.

And should I just move on

to the recommendations

or can I?

Perhaps not list

all of the recommendations

but maybe just

the ones that you think

are important.

Maybe focus on just three

for the sake of time.

Yes.

Yes, mainly with what

I have already mentioned

is that the information campaign

in terms of elimination

violence against women

because we need to

and we already mentioned

that we need to intensify

the women's awareness

on existing services

and existing prevention

preventive mechanisms

and including the repair

of potential victims

to shelters

and by law enforcement agencies.

And as regards

this actual harassment

in the workplace,

we need

we also need

in the agencies

where mechanism

already exists,

we also need

to implement

awareness raising campaigns

to encourage

victim reporting.

So for the encouragement,

we need awareness campaigns.

And in regards

to the strengthening

economic opportunities

for women,

in this case also

the raising awareness

is a problem

and we need

to encourage them

and to apply

for existing

economic programmes

for women

and we need

to encourage them

and to apply

for existing

economic programmes

and motivate

potential female

applicants

and it is important

to conduct

more information

campaigns

and yes

and so

it's

at the level

of information

campaigns

and at the regulatory

level

within the framework

of the existing

state economic programmes

it is important

to pay attention

to such areas

where more women

are involved

and where

there is

a strong

ability

to just

to start business

and to be

involved

in the entrepreneurial

process.

Thank you

so much.

I think this

awareness raising

information campaigns

you know

I've

been working

on the region

covering the region

for more than

10 years

and I remember

back at the time

when I've just

started

doing journalism

I was working

on actually

on a research project

in Azerbaijan

and I remember

there were so many

local civil society

organisations that

talked about

importance of awareness

raising and so

it's really

kind of incredible

to me that

you know

decades later

we're still talking

about importance

of awareness

raising

and I think

that speaks

to how

deep

this

these issues

are in our

society

so thank you

for bringing

that up

and kind of

also showing

that it's important

on all levels

not just

on a certain

level.

Now I would like

to turn to Emily

and I would

like

to

hear your

thoughts

about

any of the

solutions

or ways

forward

that were

suggested

on the podcast

you know

what

are your

thoughts

based on

the time

campaigning

awareness

raising

and whatnot?

What comes

to mind

when I think

about this

question

is to

me was

to me

it was mentioned

very often

that education

and also

awareness

raising

is also

extremely

important

to move

forward

when

addressing

gender

inequality

in Georgia

and that it has

a lot

to do

with

the

way

we

think

about

education

and how

we

think

about

the

way

we

think

about

the

way

we

think

about

the

way

we

think

about

education

and how

we

think

about

equality

and how

important

that is

and another

thing

maybe

when I

think

about

it

is

that

law

has to

be

accessible

in an

easy

way

so that

it's

understandable

to

everybody

especially

when

you

have

to

explain

things

and

explain

the

variety

of ways

that exist

or the

mechanism

that are

and maybe

where even

the

infrastructure

is a

different

one

than

for example

in bigger

cities

than

Tbilisi

and

other

cities

and

also

in

the

city

of

the

capital

of

the

country

and

I

think

that

an

example

of

that

has

to be

like a

multidisciplinary

approach

which is

needed

to

address

the

whole

society

and

to

make

it

to then eradicate gender inequality thank you so much emmy and i apologize for for saying emily

when i was asking the question the first time and just just just now um you know i i i totally agree

with you on um early education and introducing these issues as early as possible um i think

that's that's extremely needed um and what's missing uh again not only in the context of

georgia but in the context of all the southern caucasus countries but probably the the region

wider geography as well and i really liked what you said about um the law being accessible

in a language that's understood by you know folks who don't necessarily have higher education or

don't necessarily have lawyers who can explain

it to them um and of course you know again uh multidisciplinary approach is definitely

the way forward now let me thank you maya and emmy for joining us on global voices podcast

we look forward to reading the report uh and sharing with our audience when it's out do we

have an approximate timeline on when you think the report will be coming out maya yes sure um

the pro

um

report will be published in march uh early beginning and will be accessible online as well

that's great news we look forward to reading it well in that case thank you once again

and also thank you to our listeners for tuning in