Episode 278 - Dog intelligence and introducing cats and dogs

Hello and welcome to episode 278 of Dogcast Radio, which lives online at dogcastradio.com

with all our other episodes and lots of other dog-themed information and entertainment.

Later, we'll hear from Lisa Sinnott about cats and dogs.

Sense swapping is really important. It can be, you know, wiping a cloth on them gently

while you're stroking them, popping that in a zippable sandwich bag, plastic container,

just posting that to the breeder or rescue centre and also doing the same for the dog.

And we'll have a sneak preview of my latest project.

And the reality of life with a puppy is hard. It's wonderful and terrible.

So that's life at the moment. Wonderful and terrible.

But before that, I'm talking to science writer and author Jennifer S. Holland.

Good name, Jennifer, in my opinion, as that's my daughter's name.

Jennifer Holland is definitely living her best life.

I was reading your bio. Wow, you've done some amazing things. You've flown in zero gravity

over the Gulf of Mexico, dived with tiger sharks in the Bahamas,

ducked below a reef shark feeding frenzy on the Great Barrier Reef,

shimmied up the tallest tree in Costa Rica, gone cobra hunting with a bear-handed Vietnamese farmer,

camped on an active volcano in Hawaii, crawled into a bear's den in northern Minnesota,

sat fireside with bushmen in Papua New Guinea, learning to carve spears.

And now you're on DogCast Radio.

I am. It's all culminated. I've made it.

This is the pinnacle, isn't it? This is what it was all leading to.

Oh, wow. That is just a dream.

A dream career. Wow. I mean, for me, the one that really fills me with dread is like

camping on an active volcano. Wow. How did you sleep?

It was, you know, there was a lot of booms and noises and we were, you know, kind of off to the

edge, but there was activity. It was pretty exciting. I don't think we slept very much.

No, no. I don't think I would have done. Oh, my goodness. Okay. Well, brilliant. So

we're talking today about dog intelligence, DogSmart, your book, DogSmart, Life-Changing

Lessons in Canine Health. And I'm going to talk to you about DogSmart, your book, DogSmart,

Canine Intelligence. I love it. And I love the fact that it's got so many heartwarming

case studies, you know, real life dogs in it. It's absolutely brilliant. So to get to the heart of

the real life dogs, let's just talk, first of all, about your dogs, Monk and Geddy, and you use them

to make a point about canine intelligence. So you can, can you tell us a little bit about them,

please? Yeah, sure. So we have two kind of unusual dogs. We have a Korean Jindo and we have a breed

called a Kai Ken, a Japanese breed. And they're, they're very intelligent dogs. They're very

stubborn dogs. And they have an interesting relationship. And I tell the story in the book

about kind of how they have figured out the hierarchy in the house and how I kind of noticed

my one dog figuring out a way to, to take advantage of a situation and kind of be sly and get what he

wanted out of the other dog. And I won't give it all away. But, but it just kind of got me really

thinking about, you know, they're, they're different in how they think. And they, they were,

you know, he solved this problem. He figured out a way and it was very clever and creative.

And it made me wonder a little bit more about, you know, how smart are our dogs? We don't always

give them credit, I think, for that. Yeah. Yeah. I can remember very early on when I had my

Labrador and he was, I don't know, under a year and he had a little toy boot, Wellington boot,

and he was trying to stand it up on the edge of this sandpit. And I just watched him try and try

and try to stand this boot up. I had no idea what he was doing, what he thought he was doing,

why he was doing it. And I just watched him try and try and try to stand this boot up. And I just

he was doing it. But clearly there was a thought process going on. And it just, I think the more

you live with them, you just, you want to, you want to understand them more. And what are they

thinking? Don't you? You do, you do. And we, you know, we're not that great at it. I think,

you know, even those of us who think we sort of get it, I think once you start to dig in a little

bit more and try to experience, think about how they experience the world. It's just, it's

different. They're not necessarily thinking the way we are and different things are important

to them. And they need different kinds of opportunities in order to thrive.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And because we are, we have such different ways of perceiving the world

and, and I guess priorities, it's very difficult for, with any species to, to really think about

how intelligent they are. So how do we gauge a dog's intelligence?

You know, there's a lot of ways. I think the way I approached it was to,

to step outside of just the typical kind of dogs are smart when they

learn our commands and they do the things we want them to do and to think, well, what,

what natural intelligence does a dog need to survive as its own creature? And they need to

be adaptive. There's an adaptive intelligence. It's kind of the, the base of everything. They

have to be able to, to problem solve and, and figure out how to thrive in so many different

circumstances. Their, their communication system is actually really robust and interesting and

intricate. We, again, we don't always read them very well. We don't always read them very well.

And we probably are responding in ways that don't make any sense at all to the dog.

And then of course, olfactory intelligence is essential. That's their big superpower and the

way that they experience so much of the world. So I like to look at these kinds of intelligence,

emotional intelligence in, in, in addition, but they also, you know, there's scientists out there

now who are training dogs to lie still in an MRI so they can assess what's actually happening in

the brain and where, when they're exposed to different experiences and,

and foods and, and compare it to the human brain and see, well, what happens in a human when you,

when they're happy and when they're sad. And, and so they're, the tools are expanding for

studying dog cognition in many, many ways. And behavioral studies, there's a lot of those going

on as well. So it's great. I interviewed Greg Burns about the, the MRI research. And one of

the things I loved was he taught the dogs. One of the first things I think they were taught was

this is how you get out of the MRI.

I love that. They did, they weren't, they were there by choice. And that was, I love that.

Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's fascinating. And the step-by-step that they had to take,

which makes a lot of sense. Dogs learn like we do, you know, if you do it in small steps,

they're going to learn it better. But to, to kind of watch that process and see what that looks like

and watch the dog figure things out. It's really a lot of fun.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, this is a really interesting area for me.

Border collies and German shepherds, we kind of think of those as intelligent dogs,

they're smart, they're clever. And, you know, and then we all have our own favourite breeds that

we think, well, they're clever. You know, we, we live with a German Spitzkline and now we've just

had a Papillon. And our first small breed was a Bichon Frise. And they, I was always a larger

dog person. I'm a large person, full stop, but I'm a larger dog person. I digress again. So,

but the, the small dogs we've had have sort of amazed me because I can remember when we had

the Bichon Frise and she was the size of a guinea pig. And I can remember thinking,

how am I ever going to teach this tiny little dog anything? She won't remember where the water

is, you know, and obviously they do. They, they've just amazed me. So, are some breeds sort of

innately intelligent or what's the situation there? I would say, you know, genetics is powerful. And

certainly, you know, we've been selectively breeding some of these breeds to be intelligent

in certain ways, whether it's a border collie for that intensity and that attention that they pay

to things. They're so aware and so sensitive to detail. And you're going to see, you know,

a lot of border collies have that, but of course they're individuals. And so you're going to also

see plenty of border collies that probably aren't that into some of the jobs maybe that,

that some of them are. But, but I would say, you know, giving dogs opportunities, sometimes

you bring out intelligence that you didn't realize they had. And there was one study I write about

in the book where they compared German shepherds and pugs in a sniffing,

task. And of course, German shepherds are used all the time in these kinds of tasks and you

would expect them to excel. But the, the commitment that these little pugs had, you know, with their

smushed little nose, they don't even look like they would be able to sniff at all. They actually

excelled and did better in some of the tasks than the German shepherds. So you're not going to

probably see a lot of pug police dogs out there for other reasons, but they were very, very capable.

And it was something that I think was surprising to everybody.

So opportunities.

Opportunity is, is essential to bringing out the intelligence of a dog.

Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree. And I know someone with a pug, Susanna with a pug,

who she adopted the pug. And at that point, the dog, the pug was called Marshmallow because she

was big and white and, you know, overweight. And Susanna has done agility with this pug,

you know, not, not forced, but the pug took to agility and she's Marsha now. She's not Marshmallow

and she whizzes around and she's amazing. And, you know, she's breaking down so many,

many prejudices about pugs, you know, and I think we do that at our peril, really. Whether we go,

oh, Labradors are good with children or whether we go, oh, another breed is a bit sharp or another

breed is a bit, they're just a catch potato. You're right. We, we deny them the chance to,

to enjoy opportunities, don't we? Yeah. Yeah. And then as you say, you know, if we make an

assumption about a dog is going to be good with kids, for example, or we make an assumption that

a pit bull is going to be a good dog, it's a good dog. It's a good dog. It's a good dog. It's a good dog.

It's a good dog. It's a good dog. It's a good dog. It's a good dog. It's a good dog. It's a good dog. It's a good dog.

is going to be aggressive and mean and so our shelters are all full of pit bulls because people

are afraid so in both directions i think we we make the mistake of making assumptions about a

breed that aren't necessarily consistent at all across the breed yeah yeah absolutely i mean we're

all up in arms about you know breed specific legislation saying it's wrong it's wrong and then

when you go about you know yes you can make generalized statements about breeds but they

as you say they're going to be individuals aren't they with their own preferences

yes thankfully yes absolutely because it means there's a dog out there for all of us

that's right that's right at least one maybe three let's hope let's hope so there's there's a lot of

research involved in the book so tell me about sort of the field research and some of the trainers

and the experts that you you spoke to yeah i i was really fortunate because it kind of all started

with the pandemic and so i wasn't sure if i would be able to go out and do field research at all

but testament

to these wonderful people that knew that this was really important to me um you know made it work

and i spent time with uh with cadaver cadaver sniffing dogs that are trained you know to find

both modern scenarios and ancient you know ancient remains hundreds of years old these dogs are

helping to find the edges of cemeteries for example that were never marked from hundreds of

years ago um i was at the seeing eye in new jersey and i got to walk with a seeing eye dog

and and feel what that's like to have this dog making these decisions and you know just putting

all of my faith in this dog to to make this journey um incredible experience um the conservation

sniffer dogs the the trauma dogs that you know sit in a courtroom with a child and and help them

sort of get through a situation they're so emotionally intelligent they're just so connected

they know just what to do and not to do depending on the demeanor of the child um so just yeah i'm

a wide range uh one fun one i was on a boat with a dog who sniffs whale scat as it's laid in the

ocean before it sinks and um and it allows helps the scientists to go out and get samples because

they're trying to understand a little bit more about the health of the whales and that's the

much easier way to do it than to actually try to capture a whale and take a blood sample so

but the dog it's incredible to watch this dog sniffing off the side of the boat and

depending which way you know she's going the dog is going to be the dog that's going to be

the driver is driving the boat and sure enough there's the whale poop floating so yeah yeah i

mean that's dogs are interested in poo anyway and you know it's never long before i start talking

poo let's be honest but but i mean the dogs the insights into wildlife that we're getting

from the dogs being able to sniff the poo and tell us that the poo is there and it's opening

up insights that like we know things that they

that for example pine martins choose um habitats that we didn't think they did and yet there's the

poo so they've been there they they do go and explore these areas we would have gone

won't be there you know so they're teaching us so much they really are and and they're now using

they're training dogs for uh on vineyards to help them find um you know invasive species and fungus

fungal infections and you know they really in terms of just how we make use of them in our

world they're they're incredibly useful and they're really useful and they're really useful

um and the key is of course to just give back and make sure that we're not just using them we want

to make sure they're having wonderful lives yeah and but the working dogs i met all seem to really

love what they're doing there was not a case where i felt sorry for the dog um they wanted to do it

and the you know they get excited and they were they want to do well they wanted to get it right

um and and regardless of what the reward was some it was food some it was playtime uh some you know

the military dogs don't want to do it they don't want to do it they don't want to do it they don't

really get rewarded because they don't you know it's just a different kind of training but um but

they they just wanted to get it right and it was remarkable yeah yeah they do enjoy having a task

i mean i guess they're getting the reward of the praise from the owner from the handler but you

know but they do enjoy having a a job to do and intelligence is a funny it's sort of a two-edged

sword and i've seen this with children that you're the naughty children in inverted commas in a class

are often the more intelligent children

but you're not stretching enough and it's true with dogs isn't it sometimes those dogs who make

and again in inverted commas bad pets challenging pets they make fantastic working dogs don't they

yeah absolutely they they put all of that attention into the job um but i think you know

even still just that that bond with humans and the desire to get it right and which pleases us

you know there is something to that being a part of their their reason

for doing those jobs and it's um it's such an incredible relationship it goes back thousands

of years and we've shaped each other we've shaped each other's genetics we've shaped each other

physiologically there's just a lot of change that happened over the course of of our relationship

with dogs that we just never would have expected it's remarkable yeah and they they fulfill their

their part of the bargain without reading a book or studying don't they just go yeah i know what to

do yes exactly exactly

remarkable animals yeah yeah i'm just thinking at the moment we have the german spitzklein who's

six and we have the puppy on puppy they are standing up to the process of getting to know

each other much better than i am i think because i a lot of times i'm like please guys can we just

stop for a bit can we can i just kind of get a coffee and a rest and they're like you know yeah

come on let's go again let's try again let's let's you know and so yeah they're very resilient

and they're taking it much better than i am yes yeah

i think that's often the case isn't it yeah yeah and i guess actually talking about the the kind of

the different roles that dogs do for us from as you say leading a blind person to um sniffing out

various things to comforting us therapy dogs do you think they all have different

kinds of intelligence then and again that may come down to breed it may be individual

characters but they they have different kinds of intelligence yeah that that is my sense of it for

sure you know and i think again yeah individual dogs there are some dogs that are just more

kind of emotionally in tune with you um you know my my dogs two of them one of them is

not really emotionally in tune he's very uh and and it's partly his breed he's a korean jindo he's

just a more standoffish kind of dog but it's also just his individual you know he was a rescue dog

we don't really know what his history was with people he won't he doesn't really want to look

you in the eye he kind of turns his head away he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's

you know he's less comfortable being hugged but he will lean against you he sort of makes those

decisions and choices whereas the other is much more you know if i'm feeling a little down the

other dog is going to come over and sort of you know seems like the one who's more in tune with

that and and so i think you see just a broad range uh across individual dogs definitely

tendencies in a breed but but not necessarily a full consistency there but isn't that true like

you have friends i you know one has friends that

are huggers and they'll come and give you a big hug and others sort of will sit by you or bring

you a coffee or you know say something kind so we all express you know we have our own bubble of of

personal space don't we and dogs are the same and i think i think that's really important to

let dogs be themselves you know and appreciate that and go well this is what you're comfortable

with this is what we'll do yeah yeah and and that does take some you know just appreciating your

individual dog and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and

accepting what it is that that dog is comfortable with um you know one of my sources said it's

amazing our dogs don't eat our children more often because we're so primate you know we're always in

their face and we want to hug and the kids you know rushing up and screaming and and dogs you

know generally are going to tolerate most of that without doing us any harm but but to be more aware

of that and to to think about well that's not natural for a canine um you know that's that's

an ape thing and and to not expect your dog immediately or a new dog that you're just

meeting to to you know enjoy all of the same things that uh your you know childhood golden

retriever maybe enjoyed yes yeah absolutely i think dogs thrive and do so well sometimes despite

us not because of us but you know they kind of do it anyway and that brings us to another important

point so what's the difference you've mentioned there that sort of um that what we've bred dogs

bred instincts into or out of the you know we've tried to shape them into something a tool for

ourselves if you will and it may be a tool we love but we've tried to shape them into that so

what's the difference between instinct and intelligence i mean instinct is really that

that automatic thing it's just in there it's the fight or flight it's the thing that you know

at the very very base of survival whereas i think of intelligence as something that can be

shaped and stretched and expanded and and has you know so many different components to it um you

know i think we miss a lot of the kinds of intelligence in humans by our iq test for example

and i talk a little about this in the book that there's there's other ways of being intelligent

other ways of of solving problems and you know that don't necessarily fit into the usual categories

and i think that's absolutely true with dogs as well and that's that's why i kind of took

the approach i did in the book yeah

yeah and really you wouldn't dream of judging the intelligence of another person by

how obedient they are why do we do that with dogs you know yeah that's an excellent point and

sometimes not being obedient is is smarter you know it depends on the circumstances yeah so

we have to keep that in mind as well yeah yeah and it always you know when when people say

oh he won't do something unless there's something in it for him and you think but

of course you know yes i mean we go and get the

best pay you know the best wage we can because there's got to be something in it for us as well

you know that surely that is a mark of intelligence yeah incentive and you know the training now is is

all about positive reinforcement positive incentive which makes so much sense yes when

you think about how you know we were used to be taught to train your dog was to dominate and

you know hold his nose in it if he goes in the house and and you know we grew up with that and

i feel terrible now and how we yelled at my you know yelled at the dog and

expected them to magically understand what we were going for it's like this is a different species

from us there it's amazing that we get along as well as we do and that they tolerate the things

that they do um but you know give them some credit for having a mind of their own yeah yeah

absolutely and some to give them some choice sometimes even if it's just sort of what would

you like for tea would you like this one or this one or dinner you know which which way do you want

to go on the walk you know it's just simple things you want the harness or the collar just if you can

it's it's lovely to see them relax a bit but oh yeah that's better yes i absolutely agree i i love

that and yeah giving them more time to to sniff and to run if you have a place for them to run and

just letting them do their thing and not be so ready to to get in there and you know pull them

apart the dogs that play rough you know you obviously have to be careful in a dog park or

something like that but but dogs have their own way of communicating and playing and it's nice to

do it their way and not be constantly interfering with them yeah yeah absolutely absolutely so

i mean your your job sounds wonderful all the experiences you've had i'm so jealous it sounds

wonderful and on top of that you have got to meet some fantastic dogs haven't you tell me about some

of the dogs you've met oh boy uh let's see jasper was a wonderful dog out um a young woman that

trains her dogs for for conservation work and i spent some time out in washington

we walked around on on campus looking for buildings that have old architecture and

there's toxins and some of the caulking on the windows and her dog is trained to find some of

these so they can do remediation uh in some of these areas we also went out into a wild area

where the same dog can find wolf scat can find and knows wolf scat from coyote from dog from

you know and wow knows you know a certain species of salamander versus another

species of salamander just remarkable and just the sweetest black lab you could ever know you

know just also a wonderful pet dog as well um so that was wonderful a dog named fletch who does this

old ancient remains sniffing and we went out to an old fort site in florida where they're they're

finding you know old old bones where there was a cemetery that wasn't marked and getting to watch

him search around and and find these areas where these bones used to be there's nothing even left

in there but

somehow the dog can can still pick up something that's different uh in the soil um and then this

dog that yeah that smells whale scat i can't get over it it's just from the boat finds the whale

just amazing incredible you've just triggered a memory there when years ago gosh in my

when i was a teenager and we had a german shepherd my mom had a german shepherd and i was walking the

german shepherd with a friend and we happened to just go past um a graveyard and and um ben just

got up on the wall and just looked like this and he was just being nosy

and my friend went can he smell the bones i don't know maybe now maybe he can't

it is amazing i mean you can train them to smell anything they the scientists don't really have

equipment that can yet figure out just how sensitive the nose is but they know they can

smell the concentration can be in the trillionths and maybe even the quadrillions which is 15 zeros

as i think i came up with because i couldn't even

comprehend what that means but when they say you know a drop of blood in a swimming pool that kind

of thing it's it's absolutely true with dogs they can they can pick up on the tiniest tiniest amount

if you train them on that scent um so wow it's just incredible that's just mind-blowing isn't it

that's what it is where they have the olfaction is a big part of the book because it is so

interesting yes um but of course they you know there's a lot of emotional stuff in here as well

and a lot about communication and and adaptation

as well yeah yeah so a lot of our dogs we sort of they get a 15 minute go around the block and

then they sit on the sofa for most of the day and you know but can we do activities with them or how

can we encourage them to be more intelligent i think opportunity just as you would with a child

you know something if they seem to to thrive on something if they get a lot out of it if they do

want to sniff you know can you give them more opportunities whether it's

on a walk or whether you have the time and the money to give them a class

you know something where they actually get to to do the thing that they seem to love to do um you

know there's nothing wrong with couch potato time with your dog i wouldn't say everybody has to

suddenly change everything about their their experience with their dog but but just outings

taking them with you they they love it you know most of them um again your individual dog maybe

your dog doesn't like to go in the car and then don't but if if your dog is one of those that

just wants to explore the world and you know they're going to love it and they're going to

experience things it's just a matter of you know can you come with me today yes you can let's let's

go do this thing and and i think that it's just that exposure to more and giving them opportunities

to use their different kinds of intelligence is going to help expand it yeah and and that's all

sounds like stuff that we can do you know yes okay as you say yes we may not be able to afford

you know all the classes or even a class there's lots of things you can do at home and you can do

activities for free you know and and and i'm

one for finding activities that you can do for like with packaging you know safe packaging that

you can hide treats in in a box for the you know stuff that you get from amazon or wherever that

you can do that with the dog for free it's stuff that you would just recycle so yeah absolutely

absolutely there's lots of resources out there online just you know games you can play with your

dog brain games and it's yeah very simple stuff you don't have to have special equipment or

a special location you can just do it right there in your house so yeah excellent excellent it's a

fantastic book it's a fantastic subject

and thank you um is there anything else you'd like to say gosh um you know i guess i would just

say it's it's we loved i know most of us probably the people listening we all love our dogs and and

we have this special relationship with them but i think you know what i've sort of taken away is

just to step back a little bit and try to see the world that they're seeing a little bit more and

and appreciate kind of what that means for them and you know i don't spray if i have

or something i'm more mindful about you know my dog has 300 million olfactory receptors maybe i

shouldn't spray this you know it right there because who knows what he's experiencing or

you know the vacuum cleaner maybe there's some other high-pitched wine that i can't even hear

that's bothering him and that's why he's afraid and just trying to keep in mind the different

things that we maybe didn't really understand before about dogs and and applying them day to

day i think it's something to do yeah the next time you're going to have a dog you're going to

i don't do the cleaning i'm going to say jennifer holland said i am not to vacuum

for the good of the dog you know mental health

absolutely love it where's the best place for people to find out more about you online

i have a an author website jenniferhollandwriter.com that needs a little updating but um but the new

book information is on there and the book is available in all the usual places online and

and in the brick and mortar stores that are still out there so

excellent thank you ever so much jennifer that's been really interesting

and and i can't wait to see what you do next you'll be off into space or something now i hope so

i'll be honest i think our dogs are more intelligent than me hey what do you mean

you already knew that all the links jennifer mentioned can be found in the show notes at

dogcastradio.com you're listening to dog cast radio on

dogcastradio.com many of us love cats and dogs and many of us live with cats and dogs but how do

we ensure our cats and dogs are as happy living with each other as we are one person who has the

answers is behaviorist lisa sinnett really excited you you graduated from in a in clinical animal

behavior from university of edinburgh last year so you're science-based i love that you're ethical

you're kind methods aren't you so you're everything we're about

oh thank you yeah yeah i graduated there in november um i mean my mom went up the day

well the weekend and yeah graduated up in queuing hall saw lots of faces that i'd only seen on zoom

and it's an online course yeah um yeah i did some shadowing of some clinical animal behaviorists as

well just to solidify their learning uh but yeah it was a wonderful day yeah yeah yeah lovely

yeah lovely time glad i did it yeah

excellent excellent i love science-based um you know trainers that are talking from the science

as well as experience but from the science and we we're not just going oh this method works we need

to know sort of why does it work what's the dog's or the cat's experience you know whatever the

animal is what's their experience of this are we you know are we giving them a good experience or

are we just shutting them down what's you know going on as much as we can we can speculate so

yeah absolutely yeah you can sometimes train behaviors

at the door you might train them to go to their map but it might not actually get the emotion

behind the behavior they might still be scared if it's a fear-based reason that they're barking

so it'll pop up somewhere else yeah so yeah it's quite right you need to kind of dig a bit deeper

and find out the motivation emotion behind the behavior as well yeah yeah well i guess the the

training is the easy bit in a way that's just the you know what's get i always you know think what

gets treated gets repeated kind of thing yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

and the training is the sort of the behaviors we want but the the behavior is the looking a bit

deeper and that's when clever people like you come into it and sort of say well actually what the

dog's feeling is this or that you know and help us to give our dogs the best experience we can

yeah i think it can be easy to misinterpret behavior sometimes yeah we're so close to our

animals as well so kind of having an outside of you or really being equipped in in feline and

canine body language kind of

thinking you know why why are they doing this behavior what body language are they showing

if their tail's wagging obviously that doesn't i'm sure a lot of your listeners will know it

doesn't always mean the dog's happy it's all about the position of the wag and the other

body language that they're showing as well and taking a holistic view on kind of their sleep

their food their exercise any pain that they might be experiencing any stresses from outside or

inside that they might be seeing as well so yeah a full picture just like us really i guess if

we're stressed sometimes um it can be a few different things accumulating and then that

we can act in a way that we wouldn't do normally hadn't the other stuff happened and the same thing

can happen with dogs and cats too yes yeah yeah i think a lot of our listeners have cats and dogs

we certainly have cats and dogs we have three cats and um and we're back to two dogs at the moment

yeah um and but it's

a lot to to sort of manage and to to support all the animals and we'd got sort of a status quo where

we've got the three cats and we got mischief and they all sort of knew each other they and it was

all lovely and going along nicely and then i wanted to introduce the puppy which we've done

you know and it's like oh my goodness and every new beginning i find every new beginning with a

dog or a cat i'm always frightened that i won't be able to get to the same level of understanding

with this kitten or puppy that i've got to with the other ones you know and it's it's always i

find new beginnings scary because i suppose it's the unknown isn't it yeah absolutely yeah yeah

different cats and dogs have different temperaments so yeah but i mean i guess if you've got lots of

experience that can be a really good foundation if you've kind of been there before yeah it's

it kind of helps but i always have that fear of i won't be able to do it this time so we'll see

we'll see

so

well thank you thank you so you're someone who knows what we should be doing when we're

introducing cats and dogs so let's jump in what do we need to know about introducing cats and dogs

sure so i wanted to kind of do it in three kind of three pronged approach if that's all right so

things to think about before you even get a cat or a dog excellent so obviously considering

the the breed of dog you're planning to get if you've got a cat

obviously dogs that are bred to chase things like greyhounds they might not be suitable for

living with a cat i'm not saying everyone but you know it's thinking about those breed specific

traits initially before welcoming a dog home also if you've got a cat or a dog and you

need to also think about if they've had any previous negative experiences with other dogs

or cats um because obviously that can imprint on them do you have the space as well we'll be

talking about it a bit later but having separate areas for the cats and dogs initially um is really

sensible to help them feel safer if you're getting dog have has the dog been around cats

from a young age otherwise they might think oh this is really really exciting and chase it and

also just the

temperament of your your cat as well you know can can you test this out if you've got a garden

can the cat go out into the garden and watch the dog from maybe the garden table have the door open

so they can run back into the the house if they want to and move away what's their reaction you

know if they're they're freaking out and they're really scared you know is that going to be a

sensible thing to do to welcome a dog home

yeah yeah so so i guess i guess sometimes the answer might be well it's not going to be

suitable at the moment you know sometimes if we put our animals needs first it might be that we

think well we'll have to delay getting the the dog or the cat yeah i think i think it's really

sensible to think about because especially if you've got an elderly cat that i don't know maybe

that's arthritic and and can't jump up as as high and climb as easily as it used to that's really

going to affect their well-being because if they can't go up high obviously cats are a prey and

predator species so if they can't escape a dog easily by running away from it or you know climbing

up high that can really affect them so i think that's an important consideration really yeah

yeah so i mean we want to go into it making sure they're as happy and safe as they can be because

i mean it can it can in the with you know with the best of intentions and the best of intentions and

in the best regulated households it can go wrong can't it so how do we you know when we've assessed

our cat and our dog we think well actually we think they might be able to cope with it you know

we're going to try we're going to do our best so what's the best way to actually introduce them

sure so it kind of starts even before the dogs come home so i'll do this from a dog perspective

imagine that the cat's got their territory to your home already um so um scent swapping is really

that navigate the world through their sense of smell so it's really important that they're able

to smell the dog rather than just being able to smell it when it's arrived because they'll hear

it as well potentially they'll see it so doing that groundwork beforehand and scent swapping

will be different for every animal um for some cats it can be you know wiping a cloth on them

gently while you're stroking them popping that in a you know zipper ball sandwich

bag container plastic one and then giving it to the person who's got the dog either a breed or

rescue center and also doing the same for the dog and then just leaving that around the house

for the cat and for the dog to smell remember that they're still in separate houses at the

moment and just see what the reaction is um if the cat is interested that's great if they kind

of run and hide

and doing things more slowly otherwise if i don't know the cat doesn't like being stroked then

maybe one of their brushes or a toy or a blanket that they've laid on obviously making sure that

they've got other blankets to lay on so we're not taking their scent away but then also doing

scent exchanges on things like the table and other areas that the cat might smell and be around

yeah yeah i love that because that's getting straight to the heart of like what it is to be a

cat and dog cat or dog yeah it's because we're really visual but they perceive the world primarily

through scent don't they yeah exactly yeah and i think it can be really overwhelming you know if

they're just smelling a dog or a dog's just smelling a cat straight away and then hearing

it and then seeing it you know it can be oh what you know what's that so you know setting the

groundwork and putting that bit of pre-work in just to be able to smell the scent of the cat and

posting that to the breeder or rescue center that's a really good way of helping things get

off on the right kind of paw if you like yeah excellent excellent sometimes cats can get

stressed not every cat's like lots of cats and dogs i've known living harmoniously together and

really happy and get on really well obviously some cats you know they they can get really

stressed and that can sometimes end in things like cystitis and that's you know pain peeing

outside the litter tray so doing everything we can to help prevent that obviously there can be

other reasons for cystitis as well but um stress is a cause of it yeah absolutely absolutely so

so this is a really gradual introduction isn't it yeah and in terms of other things that you

might like to do in terms of setting up the house thinking about um a cat flap um if your cat does

go outside um a cat flap is a really good way to set up the house so you can set up the house

that's higher up rather than ground level it can be good so they can see the dog when they

are coming back inside the house whereas obviously if it's really ground level they can become nose

to nose with the dog and then always having options to get away there's things like cat trees or cat

shelves if you didn't want to do that then there can be other variations you know um a high table

that they could go on and then you can set up the house and then you can set up the house

or you know a windowsill something high up there but it's really important then they're then they're

not running the gauntlet to kind of get away from the dog yeah um and obviously elderly cats there'll

be different considerations there because they might not be able to jump up on race surfaces

yeah yeah so i get we're making trying to make it so gradual and gentle as we can but also

we're giving them

a way out aren't we we're not sort of forcing them together in every situation we're sort of

trying to make it that they can step away if they need to yeah that's really important i think you

know i get it we're very i am as well but we're very goal-oriented we can be a bit addicted to

outcomes kind of that amazon prime i want it all mentality but you know our dogs and cats are

different we don't want just want to shove them in the room together and so they're spending time

together flood them you know it should be on their terms and as slowly as possible yeah absolutely

absolutely because i mean you you know i think this a lot i mean i am very very frightened of

wasps and bees and i always sort of take it to that and sort of think well you know i can cope

with bees and wasps at a certain distance and if you think about whether kind methods are better or

i was thinking the other day if somebody hit me hard enough and went you jolly well sit still

while there's a bee and wasp here yeah i would do it

I wouldn't be happy. I'd be panicking and I might well turn on that person who hit me.

You know, it wouldn't be a good experience at all.

Whereas if somebody sort of said, right, come and get this Mars bar or this piece of cake.

I'm very food motivated, you know, but you have to come.

Yes, you have to come a little bit closer to the beer wasp.

Yeah, I'll do that. I'll do it. There will come a point where I'll go.

That's that's, you know, my limit. I'm not going to get any nearer than that.

But if you kind of think what you're frightened of and what you can cope with

and then think about the dog and cat trying to sort of cope in the same way,

it's much, much kinder, isn't it, to sort of to go at their pace, basically.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You hit the nail on the head there.

Yeah. At their pace, you know, they'll tell you, you know, the pace that they want to go.

Some cats will be different and dogs will be different and more confident than others.

But slow and steady is more sensible just so you've got the time to judge things

and see the body language rather than kind of being in this.

Frenzied state where everything's going wrong.

And then, yeah, you know, first impressions count.

So, yeah, setting them up for success.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now we've got a puppy at the moment.

I keep mentioning we've got a puppy. We've got Diamond and she's a little puppy on.

Our cats are used to a dog. The puppy isn't used to cats.

So we're using a crate. So she's really happy in the crate.

And we're pairing the so we've got her in the crate. We're bringing her in.

We're giving her treats.

We're letting the cats see her. We're keeping the sessions short.

You know, that kind of thing, because, you know, the last thing I want is her because she's she's very high energy.

She's fast. I don't want her. Well, I don't want anybody getting injured.

I don't want the cats to injure her. I don't want her to injure the cats.

So I'm being really, really slow and steady.

That's brilliant. Yeah. You've got three cats.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're quite right.

Cats have sharp claws. Cats will tend to flee rather than fight.

If they've got options to escape. So things, you know, being able to move away.

I'm sure your listeners will probably think about resources, obviously, during the actual arrival.

Setting up baby gates can be really helpful just so your cat's got that option to move away and the dog's not rushing forward and their resources are there.

Because, you know, dogs are interested in lots of different things, litter trays, you know, cats.

And food can be very enticing as well.

But having an area for your cat to be in that's just theirs initially, obviously keeping the food and water bowl separate and the litter tray separate.

So no smells are contaminating. But just so they've got that safe space to that's theirs initially.

Yeah. Yeah. You're bringing about memories there because Buddy, my Labrador, was obsessed with the cat litter tray.

That was like, oh, pudding, you know, to him. It was horrible.

Yeah. Revolting.

How much do cats and dogs understand each other?

Because obviously we're trying to understand both of them.

We're speaking English or whatever language we happen to speak.

But and then so we've got the language barrier with each of them.

But how much do the cats and dogs understand each other?

Yeah, it's a great question.

I mean, people say cats are harder to read.

I think.

They can be because they mask pain really well.

One of the first things is obviously they're solitary survivalists.

It's not ideal for them to look vulnerable and hide pain.

But if you look closely in terms of their body language, things like licking their lip, they can lick their lip very quickly or their nose, just like dogs do.

They can have very low, slinky body language if they're a bit unsure of things.

I think cats will make.

It very clear if they're really upset, you know, they might or, you know, claw at a dog.

I think obviously cats, as a prey species, don't know that a dog initially just wants to play with them.

Even if, you know, if a dog's chasing them and just wants to roll around with them to a cat, actually, that can be really quite scary.

They've never experienced that before, even though the dog's motivation.

Intention is just to play.

You know, the cat's never had that.

Then it's very hard to communicate.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, rolling on your back, if you're a dog or a cat, can have quite different meanings, can't it?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

On Kendall Shepard's ladder of aggression, obviously, if a dog's lying down with their leg up, that doesn't mean that they want a belly rub.

Yeah.

I know some people out there will say, oh, my cat loves a belly rub, or they'll love me, you know, putting my, you know, even head into their belly and smushing them, but it's very different you doing it compared to a brand new dog that's just come home.

I mean, absolutely.

It's like, you know, our close family and friends, we love a hug with.

Most of us love a hug with.

but if a stranger comes up tries to grab a hug you're going to be like whoa get off i don't know

what you're going to do yeah exactly yeah yeah it's like being in a lift with someone and yeah

feeling a bit you know uncomfortable maybe getting your phone out or looking at the nails

you know cats will feel safer if they've got other things to occupy them themselves with and

move away from dogs there's you know things like even depending on obviously how big your dog is but

the the back of the sofa then being able to run behind that and jump up on a a table that's

something i read in sarah ellis's book and john bradshaw's book the trainable cat that can be

quite a good idea um yeah that escape point yeah yeah do we always have to start i mean obviously

we have an adult you know a cat or a dog and we're bringing quite probably a puppy or a kitten in

can we do the same can we still introduce them if we're starting with two adult animals that

may not be familiar with the other species yeah i think it's easier from a younger age just because

you haven't potentially got that learning history of negative experiences yeah um and obviously age

considerations obviously is one of the things that we're trying to do is we're trying to

we get older and oh well our cats and dogs get older they might be less tolerant they might be

experiencing things like arthritis are the thing um it's not impossible but i think training the

dog with some basic commands just to you know prevent any chasing you know staying away learning

to settle eye contact on you using a long lead not a flexi lead because obviously that can cause

injuries inside the house

and outside as well but just minimizing those risks of any chasing happening because you know

neurochemically for a dog chasing something's really fun you know thinking of you know your

squirrel that they're chasing or a bird you know to them it's really fun and if they're getting a

chance to do that and they're just going to repeat it so i think it can be done but i think you know

considering those steps that we talked about initially it would be the best course of practice

if you can yeah

yeah yeah absolutely absolutely so can you go outside you know that'll be another consideration

yeah you know is it indoors all the time yeah yeah so can you can you tell us some things like

what are things that we definitely should do and maybe or you know as well what are things that are

definite no-no's don't do that if you want this to go smoothly sure so i'd say definitely don't

just stick them in a room yeah and i think that's a really good point i think that's a really good

point yeah don't you know just give them a puzzle feeder each or a licky mouth or some food don't you

know just put them next to each other and the bonding activity for them to eat you know

you know as humans we like a lot of us like going out for dinner we're very social we have wine we

have three course meal but cats they eat alone you know in the wild they would have you know

hunted for up to 20 times not all of them but they would have hunted for up to 20 times and

the hunts would have been successful but they eat alone yeah so even if they are eating next to a

dog or eating next to another cat it doesn't mean that they're you know really comfortable so i'd

say that'd be my first thing um do's i'd say you know getting some real basic cues commands

with your dog learning to settle learning to wait some eye contact and initially having barriers

um yeah

the first instance just so they can see each other a drape a blanket over the

the baby gate you can get glass baby gates because obviously you know with some baby gates

they're very small slips so you've got kids and maybe they could get go through you definitely

don't want any heads getting stuck but you know pop the blanket over it so they can see each other

but then they can also move away if they want to and then gradually

introduce some food but far away from each other not right up against the gate again yeah

yeah it's a way um but allow them to investigate calmly yeah and calming activities as well not

kind of like jack-in-the-box puzzle feeders that the dog might pick up and and crash on the floor

some cats will be fine with loud noises but obviously their their hearing's incredible

well it would have to be because they're not going to be able to hear anything so

well the mice they've had to catch in the

just thinking about it from a kind of cat's point of view yeah yeah i mean the the odds are well

hopefully the odds are that you you will succeed if you you go slowly and you know but i mean i

guess at the end of the day sometimes you just have to make sure that they can have their own

territories you know steer clear of each other if they want to you know you you can't always

push animals together you know you can't always push animals together you know you can't always

push animals together into the like the the the shape of life that you want can you yeah yeah i

mean some cats and dogs you know we might find them curled up on the sofa together but some cats

and dogs they might just you know tolerate each other from afar and you know that that's fine as

well um yeah yeah having realistic expectations yes um yeah yeah which which is difficult because

when you when you i mean i'm finding this now when you've come from a place where your dogs and cats

and be all civilized together you know like oh can't we get back to that but you know i'm trying

to be um patient and hoping it will happen so um yeah this is great advice for me at the moment

this is perfect oh is there anything else you'd like to say that we haven't covered yet

there's some tips on my knowledge center on my website um so my dog one sent pause training

academy.co.uk um my cat one sent claws academy.co.uk

um but if anybody has any questions please feel free to reach out yeah yeah i mean maybe if we

get some questions we could always um meet up again and discuss some questions because

it is a it's a difficult subject area isn't it yeah it can be it's you know there's lots of

things to consider but i think having a really good grasp of dog body language and cat body

language so you can spot signs is a really good first yes yeah yeah definitely do you

think as well if if you think things aren't going well do you think ask a behaviorist sooner rather

than later yeah i think getting help sooner rather than later is really sensible i heard

i saw on a facebook group someone like oh why do you have to get a behaviorist the dog hasn't done

anything yet it's like oh you know that's good that the dog hasn't done anything yet yeah

he's that way or the cat you know that that person wasn't talking about dogs and cats but

you know having the idea that you need a behaviorist when everything's you know being

thrown out of the the bath water and there's been tears involved and you're really upset and you're

really stressed it's not a great way to be so yeah reaching out for help when you can you know

despite the best intentions you know it's life sometimes things go go wrong and it's no one's

fault necessarily but you know even if there's something that we have done that we wouldn't

normally do or we made a mistake with some things lots of things can get rectified yeah um yeah you

don't know you don't know um there can be lots of different factors yeah yeah and as you say

behaviorists will look just somebody that with fresh eyes without the stress of trying to cope

with it 24 7 comes in and goes well do you know what you need to do and then they can read the

and it just it's such a help when somebody looks at it and goes no it's not look it's not a disaster

it's you know you've got lovely animals they're just not understanding each other or whatever

the situation is you know there's there's um lots of things they can do and also to i mean that that

thing about oh the dog hasn't done anything yet why do you need a behaviorist you know i've just

put my car in because the brakes i can tell there's a problem they're like beginning to squeal

i'm not going to wait until the car the brakes fail and the car crashes until then i go and say

to a mechanic can you have a look at the brakes mate because i've just crashed the car and i

think you know i go and get them done before there's a big big problem yeah and it can be you

know it can be scary sometimes asking for help you know you don't know what behavior is like or

you know because it's unregulated profession as well that can make it trickier i don't always

recommend looking you know for testimonials people in the association of pet behavior

counselors or fat clinicians they're educated you know they're educated they're educated you know

university level but really thinking about you know how your life would change for the better if

you've got the support from someone you know looking at testimonials having a chat with them

beforehand yeah um because yeah yeah yeah and being honest with them because i think a lot of

the time you know as we've said by the time some people a lot of us come to talk to a behaviorist

there have been things happening that we're not terribly proud of within you know

whether we've done things or the cat or dog has done things you know you live with it and you go

along with it you think well you know it doesn't matter you know for example so it doesn't matter

if the cat's peeing or pooing everywhere you know we'll cope with it we'll clean it up so by the you

know that's just a an example so by the time you come to talk to a behaviorist you've got some

baggage and you're thinking oh gosh should i say this the behaviorists won't be shocked will they

tell them the truth yeah it's really important you know that you're working with someone that

you trust and you give them a full picture because there's going to be so many different elements that

you to behavior i don't like you know kind of this idea that it's always the owner's fault

that's completely not true you know animal behavior can be based on genetics temperament

you know even stress that's being transferred from the mother that the dam in in the womb to

the dogs um you know previous experiences pain you know so really being honest with the behaviorist

about things that you've done or other people in the house have done um and they'll just guide you

on why that's not recommended or whether you should keep doing that they'll be honest with you

um not in a judgmental way but just giving you the options of why that's not recommended because

you you know you only do things because you want an outcome um and you've got your pet pet's best

at heart and sometimes it can be really hard to know what to do especially i don't know if there's

things on the tv you see something you think oh that's like my dog but you know dogs and cats

they have different motivations and emotions for behavior so you know trying something just on

google or tv can be like pushing a triangle into a square hole you know it doesn't know the reason

behind why your cat and dog's doing it so i think that's important otherwise you can get a bit

frustrated and give up or will be trying things it's just not right for your dog yeah yeah i mean

i think that's that's perfect advice keep your cat or dog or whatever the animal is but keep

your animal at the center of your thinking and and try and meet their particular needs

yeah i mean i remember like reading you know magazines when i was younger of like

you know oh if he doesn't call you back then it means you know that he's just not that into you

or he'll take someone else you know the kind of these labels and these boxes you know actually

you know you might be at work or maybe i don't know he's poorly or you maybe you know it could

be different reasons i think just labeling and you know an animal was you know dominant or being

naughty or overzealous it's not really helpful because it doesn't get

the reason behind the behavior it's just a label it doesn't actually describe why they're doing what

they're doing it's just a label i love the way lisa puts the emotional welfare of the dog and

cat at the heart of what she's doing we have the links to lisa's dog site st paul's training

academy.co.uk and her cat site st claus academy.co.uk at dogcastradio.com if you have cats

and dogs i'd love to hear about it and see photos you can email me

or find me via our social media and talking of social media i've been recording my thoughts on

welcoming diamond my papillon puppy to the family to manage expectations i'm calling it the inane

ramblings of a puppy owner hashtag europo and i'll be putting all of that on youtube and here

just for you is a sneak preview this is the reality of may in england probably most of britain

it's raining

we had one week we picked up diamond on the 4th of may star wars day may the 4th be with you and

we had a glorious week that week in fact at times it was too hot for me but it meant it was brilliant

we could be out in the garden and toilet training was so much easier than it could have been if we

were trapped in the house by rain and a lot of peas and poos were done in the garden rather than

the house and so that first week was brilliant but then after that the weather turned and it's

been very rainy since then and i know we brits talk a lot about the weather but this is why

because we never know what we're going to wake up to and it can be more you know hotter than you can

handle one day for a brit hotter than we than i can handle and one day and then the next day it's

rainy and chilly and you need your cardi again yes your cardi your thermal vest probably anyway

it's may and it's raining and i'm under an umbrella as you can probably hear

Luckily, Diamond loves water.

She sloshes the water out of her water bowl and she paddles in it

and she just, she does not mind coming out and getting drenched.

So that's a good thing.

That'll be on the Dogcast Radio YouTube channel soon.

But for now, that's it.

The end of another episode, all of which you can find at dogcastradio.com.

Until next time, look after yourselves and your dogs.

Thanks for listening to Dogcast Radio, available from www.dogcastradio.com.

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What kind of car does a dog drive?

A Ferrari.