[ISBW] Celebrating ISBW's 19th Bday Live at WorldCon with Writer and Gamer, Tanya Depass!

IF helps a lot, even at work.

We know that no industry is the same as the other and helps you with the right insurance for just your company.

Book free advice at if.se-foretag.

Discover new Forex.se, your one-stop shop for the journey.

Compare booking flights and find the cheapest ticket.

Book experiences that make the journey memorable.

Fix the travel cash, the package, the insurance and more, wherever you want to go.

Fix everything on your journey at newforex.se

Welcome to I Should Be Writing and the special guest of honor interview here at Worldcon.

I'm your host, Mer, and I am with Tanya DePass, cipher of tear, a good friend, an amazing writer.

And I am so glad to say that this is my, yesterday marked my 19th anniversary of doing I Should Be Writing.

And so having Tanya on as my anniversary.

The birthday thing was, I was very excited to be able to do it.

Tanya, you have so many, you wear so many hats.

Yeah.

Yeah, I do.

I'd like to start with you.

You introduce yourself with all of your jobs.

Oh, boy.

Yeah.

So we only have an hour, right?

Yes.

So for the past 10 years or so, I've started.

First Games, which is a not-for-profit organization about helping the games industry get better about inclusion and diversity.

We're getting there slowly.

I stream on Twitch.

This year is actually my 10th year being a streamer on Twitch, 7th year being a partner.

Nice.

Do DEI consulting.

Well, did, I should say, because now my current day job is as a game developer.

I'm working on the Wonder Woman game coming from Monolith.

So I do that.

I am, I do TTR.

I do RPG stuff, helped create Into the Motherlands, which is a game that's coming out this year, which is an all-POC dev team, very Afrocentric in the premise of it.

Basically, no slavery, no colonialism.

You know, unlike many of the other RPGs that we enjoy.

Oh, goodness.

Now that I have to think of everything I do, it has all flown out of my brain.

Are you still working on the Broken Earth series?

No.

That is actually coming from Green Ronin.

I've seen the final book.

Okay.

So for those that don't know, NKG.

Robinson's series, The Broken Earth, is coming out as a TTRPG, and I got to work with Green Ronin on that.

That should be out soon.

I know the Quick Start is actually available right now for free on their page.

Oh, great.

So you can learn and go and be part of that world now before the actual game is out.

And I do actual plays and podcasts.

I was on Ravus Warty for all five years.

And I was on Black Dice Society for its full run.

And then we actually streamed Into the Motherlands on my Twitch channel for four seasons.

And how many words of fanfic have you written?

Nearly 1.5 million.

Wow.

Most of it dragged me.

I knew it was over a million.

I didn't know you'd gone on to the 1.5.

Yeah.

You know, the pandemic left a lot of time to do things.

Yes.

But the reason why I bring it up is because this is a show about writing.

And I think I'd like to start with the fanfic because since I've started this show, fanfic has changed so much.

And the opinion of fanfic.

Has changed so much.

And before it was, it's a copyright violation, which technically it still is.

And but then again, it goes into only people who can't write do it.

And you're wasting your time and all this crap.

And now I know some agents who read AO3 looking for clients.

Oh.

I don't know if they found them, but I do know there are some who do it.

So can you take me on your fanfic journey?

Why and, you know, how you feel about it now?

So many, many, many moons ago, somewhere on fanfiction.net, there's very old Power Rangers fanfic that I wrote.

Yes, very old.

We never talked about Power Rangers.

I don't know, but there's time later.

Don't worry.

So, you know, and this is pre-AO3 even existing.

There's, it's like the fic that I may never tell anyone about because I'm not proud of it.

It's not well written.

It was just very much.

Like, this is what I'd like to see, which, you know, was a panel I was on earlier.

And then I kind of dropped it for a while because college and everything else.

And then I got back into it with Dragon Age because I'm a big Dragon Age nerd.

No shock to anyone who's known me for five minutes.

And the world of Thedas and also especially Dragon Age 2 just pulled me in so much that, you know, I actually got the spark to write again.

I actually got the spark to kind of play around in the sandbox.

And so, funny.

My first fan fics for Dragon Age were actually LiveJournal kink meme fills.

Oh, wow.

Oh, it's all spicy.

You can go find me on AO3.

I don't care.

There's a lot of very interesting Fenris Anders, you know, Polly, other stuff going on.

I even dipped my toes into Mafia 3 because I'm a big Mafia 3 fan.

A couple Mass Effect fics are out there.

And I've always thought of it as a way to express myself and get that creative itch scratched.

I've never really thought of it as like, oh, people can't read.

Or I do that because I think so many people think of writing fan fic as like a young girl's thing to do.

Not really something adults do.

Or, you know, you're a published author.

Why would you write fan fic?

Because I still need a creative outlet.

And fan fic, you know, also has let me, if I'm stuck on something, either work or personal, I can go knock out a drabble or at least kind of plot out something.

And it knocks the rust loose.

So I think people who turn up their nose at fan fic are really, A, missing out and, B, being snobs.

Yeah.

I mean, authors that we know do write fan fic.

They just don't tell anyone what their AO3 name is.

But we know they write it.

Yeah.

And I think it's good.

I think it flexes writing muscles because you are now constrained by someone else's world and IP and world building and sandbox.

So to make something work in someone else's entire world takes skill.

Now, granted, not all fan fics do that.

Sometimes it's very clear, like, this is a 16-year-old that has never, you know, enjoyed carnal things.

And they're trying to write smutty fan fic.

But you know what?

We were all 16, 15 once.

And it's fun.

It's like the way to express myself.

I've met so many friends because of gaming, because of streaming, because of writing fan fic.

And now I've kind of dipped my toes into Baldur's Gate fan fic.

Oh, awesome.

Oh, yeah.

My first tab, basically, and I'm going to be a little blue unless someone tells me we can't cuss.

My first tab kind of hoed around Faerun with everybody they could except Mazora.

So.

They've got all the notches in their bedpost.

Except Mazora.

So they have taste.

Yeah.

Well, I also didn't know that if you turn Mazora down, there was no more chance to go back.

Okay.

I was like, no, you're mean to Will.

I don't like you.

And I didn't realize, oh, well, this is the run where I'm kind of banging everyone.

Oh, I turned her down.

That was my one shot.

I did it once.

I was like, this was actually kind of disappointing.

Like, she's not even that good at it.

She was a lousy lay in the game.

I'm sorry.

Not sorry.

Sorry if any of the layering devs are in here.

But she was.

We will be talking about sex and love in Baldur's Gate tonight at 7 o'clock.

Yep.

Yes.

So this conversation will just keep going.

Oh, yeah.

I'm looking forward to it.

Carry on.

So, yeah.

So, I mean, fanfic has always been a creative outlet other than things like, you know, we both got into making dice.

And again, I've always been a very literary person.

I've always been a big reader.

And, you know, as a kid, I wanted to be a novelist.

Just didn't get there.

But it's a way to just express myself.

And also, if I'm having a crappy day, I can go write some really mean, cruel, womp, dead dove fic.

No one has to ever see it.

But I can write it and know it's gotten out of my brain.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

One reason I made you list all of the things you do is I think right now, writers on the,

new writers need to realize that they have more than just book outlet or short story outlet.

Absolutely.

And so it feels like with looking at your career, you have taken opportunities available to you,

but you've also gone out and made opportunities for you.

And this is something I've always admired about you.

Can you give some advice on how to both look for opportunities,

and just make them yourself?

In terms of looking for opportunities, you know, if you can, go to, you know, in-person events.

But we're all aware that going to in-person events, A, is not entirely safe because COVID's still happening.

Also, they are expensive, flights, hotel, et cetera.

So if you can't go to in-person things, network with people either through social media.

I know Twitter's evil, but right now it's still kind of the most well-known platform.

Join discords.

There are plenty of people who create discords as ways.

Do network to connect with other people, writers, game developers.

If you can, join professional organizations.

And if you're a student, look for student rate.

You know, and just if there's a writer whose work you enjoy, it will mean the world to someone.

If you are actually nice and complimentary about their work, don't be the weird asshole that gets on Twitter and yells about,

I hated this one character, I hated your work, because that will close the door very quick, and people can see you.

In terms of making opportunities, you know,

with Motherlands, it came about because a lot of us grew up with sci-fi and fantasy and did not see ourselves.

Motherlands is an all-POC group of developers and writers and artists, and we're just like, we don't see ourselves.

You know, we grew up seeing Star Trek with only a horror, or we didn't see anyone, we saw the one black character.

Maybe they lived through the series, maybe they didn't.

So we're like, we're going to make the world that we want to see.

And granted, we had to kickstart it.

It was a whole pain in the ass to do it, but the book will be out there and the game will be out there for people to enjoy.

So.

Find like-minded people who want that same thing, the same representation, the same lack of things they're seeing in writing, in games, what have you.

And get together and collaborate, because no one person can do anything by themselves.

I know, I know my strengths and limitations.

And also, you know, I know it's hard.

It's easy to sit here on the stage now and say, just go out and meet people.

Yeah.

But, you know, find a way that works for you.

Find your communication style.

Find, if text works for you, join a Discord, talk to people.

If, you know, like going to cons and being in person is your thing and you're more of an extrovert, go do that, again, if financially feasible.

It's finding kind of what works for you, because I think too many people will see folks like you and other folks that we know where they go, but you made it.

Tell me how you did it.

And they think that they can follow your path in a cookie cutter way.

Yeah.

You know, I'm sure many of us here have gotten the, can I just have coffee with you?

Can I ask you how you got where you are?

And it's like my little wayward S-shaped path.

It's not your path.

You know, friends of ours that are in the TTRPG space, they get asked all the time, well, how do you get to be a DM like what you're doing?

Or I can't DM because I'm not like you.

And B. Dave Walters always says, that's correct.

You're not like me, but you should find out what works for you.

So getting away from, I want to be like X author, game writer, streamer, whoever, and figure out what works for you.

What are you good at?

Because I think a lot of people don't sit down and figure out exactly what they're good at.

And then they try to emulate what they see.

Yeah.

And then they try to be successful without realizing that person's path may have been 20 years ago before they got to where they are now.

And you're seeing them on stage somewhere.

Yeah.

So it's one of those things of find what works for you.

I know, again, it's easy to say that.

But sit down and have a hard conversation for yourself.

And most importantly, do not go quit your day job until you're at a point where you can pay your bills doing what you love.

You know, I was very fortunate.

But it took me 15 years to get to where I was working independently and able to pay.

My bills consistently.

And since the creator economy is kind of tanking, it's why when the opportunity came up to take the day job, I was like, benefits?

Yes, I will take this and a paycheck.

Right.

So we're going to talk about the day job just to the point that you can't talk about the day job.

Correct.

But emotionally, how has it been working with computer games from that angle?

It's been interesting.

And also, I've learned so much.

Because previously, when I worked for the studio, I was a consultant.

I was part of the dev team, but not part of the full-time employee team.

It's been interesting.

It's also been very revealing.

Because, spoiler, you have to have so many meetings in order to make a video game.

So many meetings.

And it's also been rewarding.

It's been frustrating, but that's any job.

Yeah.

And it's also like, I get to make a cool thing.

Eventually, people will see it.

Yeah.

But I also get to work on an IP that's meant a lot to me.

Like, I grew up watching Linda Carter's Wonder Woman.

Yeah.

And so it's like, you know, it's like that teehee, I have a secret, nobody can see it until later.

But knowing all the cool stuff that we're doing, and eventually it will be out there, it's been really cool.

That's great.

I think that's a lot of people's dreams.

And I think you really hit the nail on the head with the, you can't follow anybody's personal journey.

Because everybody's had such a weird one.

The internet opened up so many opportunities.

But also, suddenly it's like following that kid in the family circus.

You don't want to, he maybe had to go to the sandbox before the library.

But you may not need to.

So you've also been a diversity consultant.

And I know a lot of people, a lot of writers are like, they want to find, they want to find one.

Or want to.

Or hire one.

Or they're not sure when.

Can you say what you would suggest to writers who either, how to decide whether your work needs it.

And then where to go to get somebody to help you out.

I would say for needing one, you should get some, if you're writing outside your experience, that is your first stop.

Because no amount of academic research can make this work out for you.

Nothing is going to give you lived experience.

Or if you, you know, if you've skipped that first step.

Yeah.

You have your first draft ready.

You know, a lot of people still, they'll go out on Twitter.

I know for a while, just in Ireland, had a database of it.

But, well, people are people.

And that's no more.

Go out and find people.

Or, again, if you, especially if you're an established author, you should have a network of people that you can go, hey, I'm writing this book.

Or I'm creating this media.

This character is outside my experience.

And I want to make sure that I am not messing this up.

And, you know, use your network if you're an established author.

If you're not established.

You know, just put a.

Call out on social media.

Places where you know you can get trusted feedback.

And go, I'm writing something.

I'm working on something.

This is outside my experience.

Can, does anyone know of diversity consultants, DEI consultants, proofreaders that can look at this?

And the important thing is, don't just take the first person suggested to you.

Find someone, because there are a lot of people who go, well, you know, I'm writing a black character.

You're black.

You can look at this, right?

No.

Because I know nothing about your character.

The area.

Your book is set in.

Is this character's gender the same as mine?

You know, like our friend, Mickey Kendall.

We are both black women in Chicago.

But that doesn't mean that we have the same exact lived experience.

You know what?

Mickey could speak to you and what I could speak to you would be totally different things in terms of consulting on a black female character.

Yeah.

So also do your research into the person you want to bring in and help you with this.

And most importantly, pay them.

Yes.

Some people will pay like for.

Like here's a 30, 40,000 word manuscript and based on what you're doing and also do you want edits?

No, no ahead of time.

Are you okay with someone giving you edits?

You only want suggestions.

Do you want to have meetings?

Do you want revisions?

Are you okay with this?

Or are you fine with someone just coming back with, thanks for your 40,000 words.

Here's 10,000 words of what you need to do to make this a lot better.

Yeah.

I think one more thing I'd like to add is don't just go to a person of color.

Or someone unlike you, like a friend, because your, what they're looking for in your, uh, manuscript is the potential I've heard it said to be punched in the face, which is that's what they're looking for and people who are trained diversity consultants know that that might be coming and if you just hand it to a friend, you might, they might not be prepared for whatever mistake you made or know best how to advise you to, you know, give it to the right person.

Yeah.

So yes, find a professional and pay them.

It's, it's hard, even when you self-publish, it's hard to realize you need to spend some money to make the best book you can, but it's really worth it.

And also, you know, be okay with the feedback.

Yes.

Because so many people go, oh, I'm fine with a diversity consultant, and then you give them the feedback and you can just see their whole soul being crushed.

And it's not because they're a bad person.

It's not because they're inherently racist.

It's that they thought they did a good job.

Yeah.

And then they realize they didn't, and it kind of hurts.

Feedback isn't always great to get, but you've also negated the whole point of getting a diversity consultant if you don't take and use their feedback.

Yeah.

I believe Adam Sandler hired some First Nations consultants, and when they told him what he got wrong, he fired them.

Or he didn't use their advice, and they left.

I can't remember.

But yeah, you've got to listen to what they say.

That's the next step.

So what advice would you give to somebody, gosh, you do so much.

Well, you have had people say they want a DM or they want to do something creative, and they can't follow yours.

But vaguely, you know, what do people need to focus on in order to do something creative online, either streaming or fanfic or something?

So this is a multi-part answer.

Right.

We've got time.

Oh, look, all that time on the clock.

So for DMing, because I was just on a panel yesterday about actual plays and, you know, how that changes or modifies streaming as well.

So for DMing, first off, you don't need to know every rule in the book.

No one knows every rule in the book.

If you do, I don't know what brain power you have.

I would like to steal it from you.

But understand that everybody had to start somewhere.

That having the book in front of you with the rules is perfectly fine.

And I'm going to say this because Matt Mercer actually tweeted about this.

This is, well, late in the evening in the U.S. about how he is a fine DM.

He literally does not know anything, and there are plenty of other people.

You do not have to try to be Matt, Brennan, B. Dave, Abrea.

You need to find your own DM style.

Are you very much a I'm a yes and person, I'm for a narrative, I like to do more combat.

Again, it always comes back to figure out what works for you.

And if you know you like to tell stories, realize you maybe shouldn't be a DM, just go write a book.

Because we've all had that real roadie DM.

And just realize it's fine.

You don't have to be perfect.

My first few sessions DMing were horrible.

Also, it is perfectly okay to have pregens, to follow the book to the letter until you get comfortable.

And then, you know, kind of mess around with it.

I think the way I explained it on the panel was I treat it like cooking.

The first time you make anything, you've got the recipe.

You follow it to the letter to make sure you get it.

Next time you make it, maybe you tweak some spices.

Maybe you do something else.

And then eventually you'll figure out what you like doing, what you don't like doing.

And it's also perfectly fine to be like, I don't like DMing.

I just want to be a player.

In terms of streaming, most importantly, do not get into it for money.

At all.

Because I've been doing this for 10 years.

I still cannot pay my bills from streaming.

I am not one of those people who has thousands of folks just show up just because I went live.

And I probably will never be, and that's fine for me.

Do it because you want to have fun.

You enjoy it.

Maybe you want to have the social aspect, especially a lot of people did during the height of COVID.

Yes.

And also figure out what content you want to do.

Don't go chase every brand new game, every brand new thing.

Because, ooh, new game, everyone's going to come watch it.

There's also thousands of other people having the exact same thought.

Figure out, are you comfortable with the camera on or off?

You do not have to be on camera.

I'm rarely on camera.

And then just try it out.

Don't invest a bunch of money.

Don't invest a bunch of time until you know if you actually want to stream.

Also, and I say this, granted, when I started streaming, I was working for myself and could do what I want.

It is possible to stream with a full-time job, but you also have to balance that.

You know, are you going to get up before work, you know, just stream on the weekends, evenings, whatever works for you.

And, again, perfectly fine to go, you know what, I tried it.

It's not my thing.

Stream off your console if you got one.

Just make sure you have a good headset and you sound fine.

And if you do wind up enjoying it, you know, talk to other people.

Go look up resources on Streaming 101 and eventually start to upgrade your equipment.

Because if someone sounds bad, no one's going to want to listen to you.

Even if you're on camera, your sound, your video should be good.

And it's perfectly fine to take breaks, not stream if you don't feel like it.

But there is no reason to not try it at least once if you're curious about it.

And also, have moderators.

Have human moderators.

Because, well, Twitch and the Internet.

And if you're brown and you decide to be on camera, it's not a very unpleasant place to be on occasion.

Yeah.

So, streaming.

DMing.

What else?

Just anything.

Well, how about what...

Sorry, I still haven't figured out how to say this.

It's a common question I want to be asking.

Beginning writers come up against a rejection and they are so upset.

Or they get a bad comment online and they're crushed.

And, or just, they, this happens a lot with people who may not, people with, like, chronic fatigue or something.

People out there saying, you need to write every day and, no, you can't.

And then you feel bad about that.

I try to tell people, whatever you're dealing with, most every pro has also been dealing with and possibly still do.

And so, what, what barriers have you been dealing with?

And so, what barriers have you, like, especially mental, have you come up against that you have gone through and could help other people understand is normal?

Ooh, let's see.

I mean, obviously the pandemic.

Yes.

And, you know, slight warning, because I'm talking about parental death.

My mom passed suddenly in 2020, right before Animal Crossing came out.

And it was sudden, wasn't expecting it.

And it was one of those things of, well, we didn't have the best relationship.

Nobody's really prepared to lose a parent that way.

Unless you've gone no contact and you just literally don't know where they are.

And it was one of those things of, it was just hard to literally function day to day for quite a while.

And I think for a lot of people, and this is where the parasocial part comes in.

Yeah.

Is they forget that the authors and streamers and game developers and other people are people at the end of the day.

Because I've seen people talk about losing someone or, you know, I'm sick.

I'm sick.

I've got long COVID or something.

And there are still people that will tell them, but you, but, but fans are expecting this thing and you need this thing.

And it's like, I'm sorry, I'm still a person or they'll go, well, why are you talking about politics?

Why are you talking about this?

So the inhumanity that comes with being known or, or having some kind of visibility or platform, that's a barrier because for me, it makes me just want to switch off.

It makes me just want to go in a corner and hide and just like Gollum was my little corner.

And here's my ring and no one can have the thing.

It makes me just not want to engage or interact.

And then that just leads into a depression and spiral.

And it's, and you know, I've talked about this a little bit online, but for me, I often get into these spirals of, well, no one actually really likes me.

People are pretending I'm totally worthless.

Why do I bother?

Why do I try to create?

Because for someone who's putting their heart and soul into things.

And they're not used to like, not getting a lot of active feedback, putting your soul out there by either streaming or let's say you do art or you do writing and there's no feedback.

There's no good comments that can send you into a really bad place and make you feel like, why do I bother?

What am I doing?

And so a lot of those roadblocks have been mental roadblocks, sometimes physical, because I actually fell and bruised my tailbone.

So that was like three weeks of pain and suffering.

And now then when you can't sit in a chair, you can't really write or do much else.

Except be in bed and be very sad.

For me, a lot of it has been mental things and, you know, you know, there are good friends, some of whom are in the audience that have helped pulled me out of that or been sounding boards.

And, you know, even though at the height of COVID and those first couple of years, we couldn't really see each other, there was still the, you know, I stream and you're in my chat or you're in my mod or I can talk to you on Discord.

So that human interaction part of it is what really helped.

And, you know, and also.

Yeah.

It's again, it's very easy to say, and I know personally, it's hard to do is if you get to a certain point, ask for help, just just go, I cannot function like this anymore, whether that's professional therapy, confiding in a friend, I would say not provide this information to the Internet because people are weird and evil.

But, you know, at some point, admitting that things are not OK and are not getting OK on your own.

And, you know, and I almost said pheromones.

That's not the word.

But, you know, your own happy internal fields are fine or store bots.

Yeah.

Yeah, I wish I'd written that down.

You said the inhumanity.

Once you get to be a more public person, that's a really interesting way to put it.

Well, I often phrase it as you are now a persona, no longer a person.

Yeah.

I think I've heard Elizabeth Bear say the person in your head.

That you imagine you're imagining when you talk to me is not really me.

And we're going to talk about parasocial relationships tomorrow.

Yes.

Whether you guys.

One thing this is a bit of a of a of a side thing, but one thing I became amazed at when people stream, especially you and your your stream team is reminding people to take care of themselves and reminding people to take their meds.

How many?

I can't tell you how many times I have just turned on.

A stream and I'm sitting there with coffee and people like, take your meds.

I'm like, oh, crap, you're right.

And it's that's something that's been amazing about being on the Internet and streaming.

That is.

People are looking out for each other, and that really means something.

And I guess it's because streaming was new to me, but I haven't seen that happen in any other atmosphere, I guess, is the word I'm looking for.

But it feels like you're.

You're also giving some help, some support to other people as well.

Does that ever.

Okay, I'll tell you why I'm asking this.

Whenever I feel bad about my career, I get on social media and I cheer for someone else who's had a win.

And granted, I'm not I'm not lying, but it's like focusing on someone else and whatever they're doing.

Yeah.

Also lets me focus on something else other than me and being sad and I kind of wonder if that's if you feel that when you're looking at.

Supporting people by streaming or by being in someone else's chat.

Yeah, because sometimes, you know, I can tell.

So I just say, like, if you go in someone's chat, you can tell they're not having a great day.

They probably shouldn't have hit go live.

You know, they're.

But for some people.

streaming pays their bills somehow bless their hearts um and you can tell they're there because

it's an obligation or something going going like you know cheekily giving like a gift sub or a tip

or something it's something that can just brighten someone's day and it's not because like oh look at

me i can do whatever i can give you a bunch of subs it's more of a i can tell that you are not

having a good day whatever's going on whether or not they reveal that it's nice just to be able to

go you know even if it's not like here's 10 subs or five subs like here's 20 bucks please go get

yourself dinner go get a snack go do something that makes you happy or just listening because

some people will get on and do just chatting streams and they're very open and very vulnerable

about what they're doing but the main reason i do that both in streaming and both on socials

and sometimes i'll reply to people i don't know them i don't follow them they just showed my feed

but they're announcing like i got my doctorate this is really cool or i got the job i wanted

and

simple congrats that's awesome literally cost me nothing it's boosting someone who's who's having a

great moment or you know i'm having a crappy day please send pet pictures i no longer have a pet

but i can find a cute animal give to you to spend 30 seconds to be nice to someone because we are

not nice to people on the internet or in person anymore yeah um and it's also you know i would

not be here if not for the support of people both on social media and people in my circle and other

people boosting me and putting me putting my name out

in rooms i'm not in so the very least i can do is do that for other people and you know we've talked

about this of the replies of like oh my god i'm so jealous or i wish that was me one day i'll be

as cool as you all replies i've actually gotten and i really hate it of so you've minimized what

this person has accomplished you're saying you wish it was you whether you mean jealousy in

whatever format you mean it you've now diminished what this person was excited about

and so that's my kind of way to combat that because i freely meant i am nice i am not always

kind um but there is no point in me being mean to a stranger on the internet there's no point in

being cruel to someone that literally brings me no joy and people have done it to me enough i know

how bad it feels so lifting someone up even if i don't know them or if i just follow them

i don't know them at all just i try to be kind to people when i can't

um i want to go back to fanfic a little bit because um you're very clearly an accomplished

writer and one thing that's awesome about fanfic is if you're feeling weaker in character building

well you've got characters right there and maybe you could just give them an adventure or a coffee

shop that you thought up or if you're not good with description well you've kind of got it right

there you can look at the video game or you can read the book and you can read the book and you

take something out of that and work on your characters um have you found fanfic boosting

what you considered a weakness before in my own writing yeah yeah because i struggle with writing

dialogue sometimes or doing those kind of interstitial moments of the characters are

doing stuff but they're not really talking so say they're like together in a room there's a

conversation happening or you know

there's someone off in the corner they want to go talk to and describing that in a way that just

doesn't seem stilted i've always struggled with that or i am or characters have these very lengthy

conversations and i'm like oh yeah they were in the middle of doing something go back go back go

back insert a point at which they were not just standing here talking for 20 minutes for some

reason and it's and it's still a weakness i i find is my brain races well ahead of my fingers

and i will go back and read stuff as i edit i was like oh i'm missing whole words in there i

don't know what i meant to say there's like that one really important adjective that ties this

together that my brain had fingers didn't get the message i gotta go back and edit some things yeah

yeah um do you find that it's it's making you stronger yeah because okay because i i go back

and read especially like i mean i'm gonna count but not count the kink mean stuff because that

basically was just porn without plot somebody's like i want to see these two characters getting

it on cool i can do that for you here's a thousand words and i'm like okay i'm gonna do that for you

enjoy um but when it's like gotten into longer things and actually co-wrote uh unfinished series

with with a friend of mine who i met through fandom and dragon age where we it started as

au like what if our hawks met the hawk is your protagonist in dragon age 2 and their hawk was

very good aligned very nice and sweet and very pro mage my hawk was like i hate everyone i hate

being a mage i'm the worst person ever very much a red hawk that was dating fenris and we're like

what if these two met what would happen

and over a million words later we've now got like eight fics in this series and it's an au of an au

of an au i mean one day we may finish it but you know the pandemic and life happened yeah but you

know for years this was our thing to do also our social thing because we'd be in a google doc just

together uh co-writing you've also learned collaboration oh yeah that is really interesting

so uh have you worked with this person on anything else outside of the fanfic

no we would they they tried to

teach me how to play wow that didn't work out because i'm bad at it okay um but we we keep

poking at it and we keep occasionally like hey we should really go back to the thing it's like yeah

but life is kind of life and so i don't know what i'll have time yeah um we have some microphones

set up for questions if anybody would like to uh join the conversation please come up to the mics

i believe they're there and numbered i can't see them i have to trust you guys

to see them but if you'd like to ask uh cypher a question let us know

ask questions we got a half hour otherwise we're just going to stare at you awkwardly

yeah yeah you're you're you give such excellent long answers but then it's like it's over i'm like

wow what else did i write down i've been doing this 19 years you're welcome um oh i've i i know

the podcast player were like well we've covered everything in my notes and we have all this time

left yeah a lot of it is i would

want to ask you about a lot of stuff that's not involved with writing so i keep trying to tie it

back to writing because that is what this show is supposed to be about you mentioned that you

are not a novelist um but with on one hand i know everything you do and just slot in the spot to i'm

going to work on the novel at this point in my day probably not there but do you still think you

would never write a novel i don't think that i'd never write it i'd probably be too

difficult to write a novel i'd probably be too difficult to write a novel i'd probably be too

terrified to try to submit it anywhere really oh yes uh we talked about this at breakfast about

performance anxiety oh well yeah um so i actually have terrible performance anxiety and i like my

brain is just like also and you know this may sound weird but it feels like there's this there'd

be this sabotage of reputation if i were to write on a book or write a novel because i don't know

if they're what expectations someone might have me and if it's really crappy or if it's not a great

first draft and i go here

here's this thing that fell out of my brain and they're like lol no that would ruin me

that is a really good point the the expectation i i get that sometimes when i think look i tell

everybody that it's okay to write a terrible first draft just move on through it but when i write a

terrible first draft i'm like i should be beyond this this is this is utter crap because i should

be able to do this better because i'm a pro and uh i know exactly what you mean that also makes it

hard to

move into other media sometimes so yeah i get that we do have a question

hi is this working yes um i was just wondering if there's like a dream ip you would want to work on

like you you mentioned dragon age a lot but would you prefer to have that just in your fan fiction

or would you be extremely happy to work on a future dragon age game for instance uh yes and

no because one you know learning to write a novel is a big part of it and i think it's a big part of

learning how the sausage is made kind of kills it uh but also i'm a big dragon age nerd and it'd be

really cool to work with my friends uh but i also don't want to move to edmonton so uh edmonton is

where bioware is based and i'm pretty sure they don't do remote uh you know i am very excited for

veil guard and whenever we get the real date i will be taking time off work so uh but my other

dream would actually be black panther oh you know because again marvel marvel

dc grew up with comics and you know i just really enjoy the world of wakanda

would you be interested in writing the comic or would you be interested in another black panther

media like a game or something um maybe the comic i've done a little comics writing but not much

and that's something where i i feel like it works my strengths of like i'm a very visually oriented

person so looking at visuals and then putting in the words would be great for me uh but there

actually is a black panther game in development um it's a

smaller studio owned by ea maybe i don't know because i'm not sure how the world would translate

also there's a very obvious issue of most there's not really a lot of black game developers and for

something like black panther i feel like it should be mostly or if possible all all black all

person of color team yeah because we've seen the media we get when you have a character of color

but not the same melanin in the writer's room yeah yeah

i'm just trying to picture i i'm just picturing the argument you would have of saying

fenris is going in this game and say no it doesn't work because x y and z no no we're

putting fenris in or i'm walking i'm just imagining that that could happen that could

happen i mean we still don't know who's coming back in bellegarde that's true and you will hear

me screaming if it's fenris the uh yeah i imagine i have a friend who i think if varick is there and

it's possible she will rage even though varick is supposedly tied to that woman in game three but

she was i like you're like yeah that woman i don't like her i'm sorry yeah this one is afraid we

devolve into because i just want to talk about computer games with tanya but also we have

questions oh awesome i could not see over there hi self um first of all i i just wanted to say

how much i enjoyed the live play last night i had to get that in there

i'm trying to think of the best way to say this question i've been standing here um it's about a

cultural appropriation and how to avoid it but it's if you if you're not at the stage where

you're going to pay sort of you know consultants and everything when you're just starting out

when you just was thinking of ideas um and i'm also thinking about not just you know

Asian cultures or African or whatever i'm thinking worldwide here because as a kind of person with a

British ancestry everywhere you look in my family that that those roads have been trod

so extensively and it's not like there's not more material out there but you want to look a broader

way and get inspiration from outside but i want to avoid that thing of you you know well the

cultural appropriation so for cultural

appropriation and you know if you're not at a point where you're able to pay people

you know doing doing the research but what you have to think about is are you appreciating this

culture are you presenting it as if you are an outside expert and you know better than the people

from that culture because what we see a lot of times is you know white westerners presenting a

culture not their own as if well i lived in japan for a year so i know better than all japanese

people or you know i went to india once on holiday and so now i'm an expert on india forgetting that

it's a whole continent and

you know thousands of languages etc so it's it's looking at you know first interrogating why do you

want to bring this culture that is not yours into your story your work what have you are you

presenting it as if this is an absolute this is how these people are this is the way things are

and if you're presenting anything as an absolute then you should stop yourself no matter if it's

your culture or not because we're all varied so you know why are you bringing this into your work

what is the purpose of doing so and at that point find a way to pay someone or do

extensive research and understand that there's going to be people who are not happy with you

there's a lot of people even if they do the work that get a consultant they don't hit the right

mark for certain people so understanding accepting from day one that not everyone's going to like what

you've written as long as you're not presenting yourself as an expert as someone who knows more

than the people that you are writing about or discussing that is when you can show appreciation

for a culture versus appropriation and is that also like i was going to say i'm not going to say

not a safe route because there's no safe route but to be the say the westerner or whatever

you're you know from that perspective maybe your main character is that and it's them discovering

is that a way in or is that full of the danger as well i mean it depends because we've seen people

do self inserts and do the and their character very much as clues but again it all depends it's

very subjective depending on what you're writing is it a comedy is a serious whatever whatever it

is you're trying to do if you're trying to tell the story through the light of day you're trying to

tell the story through the light of day you're trying to tell the story through the light of day

of your protagonist and they are the ones kind of discovering this and maybe they have that

self-reflection during the course of your story that's great but that also takes a lot of skill

to pull off because in real life people do not have that self-reflection and realize that they

are not they're doing the thing so again that that's that's a to me it's kind of an intermediate

skill but that's what first drafts are for so if you can or again you have a trusted friend that's

not going to bullshit you if it's if it's a matter of being able to pay a consultant get that trusted

friend that's going to be honest with you and you're going to be able to tell the story through

you and then go from there with your second draft but again just always have that at the back of your

mind somebody's going to be unhappy with this thank you very much you're welcome can i add one

one more thing i'm curious to know if you disagree with this action but i've read in a lot of

acknowledgments thank you to this person who gave advice and if i made any mistakes it's definitely

on me and not them i've seen that several times what do you think of that caveat i think it's good

because you're acknowledging that you know i did listen i got a consultant and i'm going to

get it wrong but hey i'm a human i'm still going to get it wrong because we've too often seen

if something is really badly portrayed if there is appropriation the consultant is the one who

takes the fall oh because it's like well you were the consultant how did this happen it's like well

i'm not with them 24 7 i gave them advice and it still came out badly and it's not like part of

the character growth or part of the story revolution then that is on the author and i

like that people are taking accountability for it okay we have another question oh

hello earlier you had talked about when you were um when you're when you're spiraling what you do

is you go online you go online and lift up other gamers and and writers um can you go a little bit

more into how do you deal with feelings of jealousy and um when when you yourself are

dealing with jealousy uh from seeing other people how do you deal with that i compartmentalize it i

mean it it happens but having had it reflected at me so often especially when people i don't

even really know i try to internalize it i try not to bring it out online and i have my small

little group chat where i can go i really fucking hate this i'm having a moment and then i let it

go um and i feel like you should have an outlet for that but that

should not be external because and you know we actually have 15 minutes i can explain this uh

for me and i've explained this a lot online when people reply to something i'm i'm doing

or like even coming here i've said oh i'm you know i'm in worldcon or whatever i've gotten oh my god

i'm so jealous and i'm like do you understand that i'm working that this is i'm being put through the

ringer of things to do every single day i had to fly on an eight hour flight to get here you know

all you're seeing is you get to go to glasgow

glasgow it's like cool i do but have you seen the five things in one day that i have to do

with barely time to eat or you know things like that i think people just see the results they

don't see the work you had to do to get there or the work you're going to do when you're at the

thing that they're like so jealous that they're not at it's like well i just started saying well

that's a you problem i can't help you but in terms of my own jealousy or philosopher inadequacy

i deal with it

internally if possible and if i really got to get it out again have that really small friends group

or in the group chat where i'm like can i be petty for a minute or do you have energy for this because

they're all your friends may not also want to hear it in that moment either

um yeah i like that do you have energy i really like that part that's good yeah okay yeah there's

i do the the small group as well and um i have in my head early days of podcasting

i like to do this thing that is not part of my real life things that i do or that i'm able to do

a lot of things that i do that are not part of my real life things and so i think that that can help

me reflect on my life and again i have a real life incident and i think that i'm as i said this

question um i've been at a lot of public events and i've been able to talk to people and i've

been able to talk to people but i'm not aware and i'll never forget that because i don't ever happen

don't tell the internet yeah have you have your petty corner or your petty group chat

i like it text on occasion yes new discord discord i mean i do a lot of that and also

very curated discord group chats as well um and we have 12 minutes so if there's any other

questions i don't bite i swear one more yes yeah um so my question was also about the diversity

consultant can you get closer to the mic sorry my question was uh related to the diversity

consultant thing um which basically i am world building a novel and i would like to talk to a

diversity consultant as early as possible about the world building to make sure that i'm not

baking in problematic tropes into the way the world is designed um because that would be much

harder to change later into the process but i'm a little overwhelmed thinking about like

what do i have to know and what do i have to to think about at this stage in order to have that

kind of conversation in order to like ask the

right questions and have the right yeah i mean have i guess yeah i probably i just get overwhelmed

easily and it's so including with world building so i just so basically you know what you're

building correct yeah and you know the kind of people or environments you're going to so actually

just write out you know if there are cultures if there's specific things in there and you know i've

seen this also with like tabletop world building where people homebrew they try to write a 30,000

word almanac of a game and they don't know what it is and they don't know what it is and they don't

know what it is and they don't know what it's the meaning of that you know they don't know what it's

the meaning of that you know they don't know what it is and they don't know what it's going to be

and they don't know what it's going to be a game that's going to run twice

look i've i have been that person i'm telling on myself um so basically you know narrow your focus

down you know think about first the people the cultures the food and you know what's your genre

is it sci-fi is it fantasy and things like that and also have a list of tropes that you absolutely

do not want in there and keep that list visible when you're working on it whether it's a literal

sticky note something on your computer screen because trying to figure out how to do that in a

way that's not going to work is a little bit more difficult than if it was something that's going to

to eliminate everything is going to make you climb a wall. There's no way to actually eliminate every

single trope. And the best you can do is, you know, think about what are common tropes in media that

you've seen that you know you don't want to see in someone who made Motherlands. You know, as much

as I love other tabletop games, they are baked, they have baked in slavery, they have baked in

colonialism, they have baked in tropes about racism. You know, the dark elves are evil because

they're dark. Orcs are evil because they're stand-ins for black people. And we knew we didn't

want this. That was very much off the table, not going to happen. This is not things we're going to

do because we are sick of seeing that. So it might be easier to eliminate the things that you know

you don't want to see and then compare it to what you've already written and have those lists kind

of running concurrently and take it in bites. Don't worry about like, oh, there's so much because then

you will continue to be overwhelmed. So just start small with like, these are the races or cultures

that are in my work. Here's the food. Because people never think about food when they, everyone

eats stew.

And I'm so sick of stew. You know, it's always rabbit stew or we hunted a thing or there's this

terrible vegetable stew. My God, there's vegetables growing in the forest. Please go find them or find

something that's not stew. You know, and think about, you know, are you finding people who go

into a tavern, there's food they didn't encounter. Are they getting weirded out and gross like, oh,

this food, that is a trope of like, oh, foreign food. I don't like it. That's something you can

have your characters just simply not do, simply not say. Be excited about something they would be

learning. A new culture, meeting someone. Maybe they're not well traveled and they're getting out

in the world as you world build and, you know, they've met, I'm using D&D terms because it's

easier for me and without knowing much about your work. Let's say they're a heron gone. They're a

small little creature. They're going out in the world and they finally meet an orc. And, you know,

there's an opportunity to not yell the racist things that people say about orcs and be terrified

of them, et cetera, but go, oh, cool. I've never met an orc. Pleasure to meet you. And actually talk

in a dialogue. So there's all these little things you can do to not perpetuate the tropes.

But start small, you know, go section by section. And again, keep that list of tropes that you know

you don't want to go in there. And again, if you can't get a consultant, I mean, you should be

talking to a consultant as soon as you start world building, if possible. But at least maybe get your

first draft, get your first sections together. And then if you, again, can't hire someone, get the

trusted friend that's not going to bullshit you and have that be your first step. Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

All right.

That was really interesting. I was going to ask, would you recommend a consultant on the end when

the work is done and very specific or at the beginning when it's brewing but could be vague

when you're asking for help?

I think, you know, maybe not super vague, just like the ideas out there, but when you've actually

written some things down. Because it's going to be always harder, both in writing and in games or any

other media.

you finish that first draft you go back and undo the things that your consultant might find like

if there's a certain word you keep maybe you want to have slurs in your work but obviously not use

real life human slurs or things like that but there are you know people come up with something

it's like well this is still a derogatory term what you know interrogate why is it you felt the

need to have this in there why do we need to have slurs why do we need to have derogatory terms

why do you need to have this reaction that is too much like real life racism

so looking at it when you kind of are either at your first draft stage or close to your first

draft because it's going to be so much easier to catch that stuff and then knock it out get rid of

it modify it then when you've got your 20 30 40 000 word manuscript and then someone goes well

rip out these 10 pages that's all trash and not in like it's bad writing but no this is bad to put

out in the world so i'm a proponent of getting in as early as you can and kind of

fixing that extra kind of thing together but then also you know like the next term is necessary

as you go or editing because also

people are precious about their work

and if someone turned me back

a manuscript like tab after tab

of this is all fixed I'd be like well fuck this

I'm not writing it yeah I mean I wouldn't

because I can I now can take criticism

not not maybe

five ten years ago yeah

yeah do we have

any other questions well we have

six minutes left I dare any

of you especially people in the audience that I know

I'll ask a question about

money with diversity

consultants I've heard that they

I guess this is why I asked the previous question

if you have a question please come up and we'll

we'll get you once I'm done

I've heard

people charge by like the

thousands of words or the pages so if

you are hiring somebody at the beginning

and it is a vague nebulous thing

how would you charge them or

how what would you should you be

I would ask some kind of what the

length is also I ask what kind of

feedback they're looking for do they want a written report

do they want to have a check-in meeting

are they fine with that so a lot of that informs what their

price will be okay or if they say

well this is 60,000 words

and depending on how much time they want to give

me if they want a rush job the price goes up

and also

ask what their budget is because a lot of people

they don't correlate well I

know that I got paid or I will get paid

X for writing these thousands of words

versus someone else has to

sit and read those 60,000 words and go

through and edit and get feedback so I

have charged anywhere from like a couple

hundred to a couple thousand but it all

depends on again length of work their

feed their turnaround time what they're

doing do they want to have an hour

meeting after I've gone through it that

may add time but I would say have a if

possible have a few hundred and if it's

going to be a long process for involving

someone actually do kind of on a as

needed maybe month to month hey I've got

10,000 words no I'm not going to do that

how much time do you need to read it and then can we have a meeting or can you send me a marked up

pdf so it's kind of a month to month check-in until it's done so with video games i would do

that there was a game i was on from concept until release so we just had a monthly contract i do so

many hours of work i submit an invoice at the end of the month and then if there's not really a lot

of work to do i just keep track of my time so if someone can keep you on from kind of first draft

status to final out to the publisher that's when i would say a month-to-month contract okay question

so i'm working on a piece that's um it's set in america in 1910 um some of the characters are

racists and these are the kind of people that would use the n-word so i've been considering

using expurgation by asterisks you know just just put it just put in the beginning the first and

last letters in a dash in between or something like that how do you convey the fact that the

character is using this

a

defensive term without actually putting it on the page uh the n and the a would give me a big hint

i mean it's hard because you know on the one hand yes this is set in the 1910s

these people would say his words i think mafia 3 handled it really well which is a video game

but what they did is they put a disclaimer and a note at the start of the game after you get

through the intro and they said hey to preserve kind of the time period we are showing this is

why these characters still use slurs because if you play mafia 3

one it's a very violent game but two there are every slur also not just for black people but for

you know vietnamese that were in louisiana at the time and you know with the acknowledgement that

yes as i can't quite see you but i'm if i'm wrong but as a as a white author i'm a person of power

yes oh i'm sorry thank you no i'm just like i can't see because the light is here yeah but you

know but also you know if you are a person of color but not black there is the some people are

going to be mad you've got the word in there anyway but i'm just like i can't see because the

way but if i feel if you put a and again this is not giving you permission or telling you what to

do but if you put that in the beginning of the book of hey based on the setting and what's

happening and these characters are racist assholes yeah instead of asterisking that out

these characters are going to use slurs and terms and that's and i'm fully fully aware of

what is here so you can be forewarned as the reader like you know we didn't really talk about

content warnings but that way the readers informed they know what they're getting and you can't say

them yeah because if someone's set in like the 1910s 2030s and they're and you've asterisked out

that word i'm like well they wouldn't have done that also if i'm reading people talking that

sounds to me it would read weirdly yeah well and that's why i'm i've already gotten pushback

i didn't use the n-word but i did use a couple of other um offensive terms uh that i figured well

it's yiddish so i can get away with it no uh so you know so i've already gotten pushback on use

of derogatory terms in the manuscript and i don't really think that putting a disclaimer at the top

would would fix the issue so i'm going to have to find i'm going to have to find some way to work

around it i mean otherwise you know either i mean it's hard because again you don't want to you don't

want to break i hate the word immersion but this makes sense because these are racist assholes yeah

but you know there's also the whether you asterisk it or not or whether you just put in there with a

pushback there's going to be people who are mad about it so it's like can you live with that can

you live with the hey this is the setting of my book these people would have said these things

and to to preserve you know the time period this book is in yeah it's in there so i'm definitely

going to be hiring a consultant uh and i had figured i'd figured that i would wait until the

until after the until the second draft and from which yeah it sounds like doing it now would be

a real good idea i think doing it now so that way you don't have to go back and edit all that

because if it's happening in dialogue it's to me at least as a reader that would that would be

awkward yeah but if you're if someone's talking about someone or if it's something that like a

character's reading something but i mean for me i would just be like well i'm just gonna be okay

with people being mad at me okay thank you you're welcome and we have 15 seconds yeah uh tanya can

you tell us where to find you online uh i am everywhere online is cypher of t-r-c-y-p-h-e-r-o-f-t-y-r

um that is my

everywhere and in about a half hour you can find me over in hall four at the signing table please

come and say hi so i'm not sitting there by myself for an hour uh and then later we're going to talk

about sex agency love and intimacy in balder's gate is seven o'clock in i forgot what room i'll

find out

meeting academy sure wherever that is i have no m1 okay thank you m1 upstairs okay cool so we're

spicy it'll be great and then at four o'clock i'm hanging out with three black halflings along

with samantha bayart who is the voice of carlack in balder's gate excellent thank you guys for

coming and thank you tanya for giving us your wisdom oh thank you for having me

thank you for listening to i should be writing the longest running writing podcast in existence

this episode was made possible by the fabulous

who supports me on patreon and patreon.com and patreon.com and patreon.com and patreon.com and patreon.com

support the podcast via patreon or substack join the fabulous at patreon.com slash mighty mer

or mightymer.substack.com theme music provided by john anelio art provided by numbers ninja

and podcast hosting provided by libsyn this episode is released under creative commons

attribution non-commercial no derivatives 4.0 license you can find all of my books and podcasts

at merverse.com

i should be submitting my next

but i'm sitting home watching the doctor

i'm sitting home watching the doctor

sovde dåligt i natt

ikea har jag snuttat

erbjudande

så förhoppningsvis gör nästa

natt godare

upptäck våra sömnprodukter på ikea.se

upptäckt nyaforex.se

din one stop shop inför resan

jämför och boka flyg och hitta den billigaste biljetten

boka upplevelser som gör resan minnesvärd

fixa reskassan, packningen, försäkringar

och mer vart du än vill åka

fixa allt inför resan på nyaforex.se