This Week in Google 784: Trochilidine Vigor

it's time for twig this week in google paris martineau is here jeff jarvis is here coming up

the internet archive loses in court i'm sorry to say elon musk backs down in brazil

and why we can never get rid of pennies it's all coming up next on twig

podcasts you love from people you trust this is

twig this is twig this week in google episode 784 recorded september 4th 2024

trachylidine vigor it's time for twig this week in google the show we get together with

some of my favorite people and talk about some of your favorite subjects none of which have

anything to do with google uh joining us right now mr doctor professor not a doctor not a doctor

jeff jarvis

you

formerly the town night director of the town night center for entrepreneurial journalism at

the city university of new york

i just go to journalism in the city of new york has uh has the time come for you to reveal

no nope still waiting on the negotiations okay well we we'll know he'll be gainfully

employed but if he's not he's writing like a i am i am writing about the line of type i'm

right now i'm talking about the making of matrices

oh

and this is this is a mold for a letter and that's paris martin of feigning interest

she writes for the report i'll bring you matrices when we see you in new york

you'll be good i can't wait we're gonna have lunch paris writes for the information.com where

she covers uh the intersection of youth and technology which is a big subject for the

weekend which we love that's the actually my weekly read at the information

so nice to see you lovely to see you as well and we will be all having lunch on friday i'm so

excited i'm coming up to new york tomorrow jet bluing it to new york and i wore as you know my

new york shirt to celebrate with the sombreros on it that's very important to represent the

culture these days uh we were we're also doing a meetup and i hope it doesn't rain but there's

rain in the forecast at bryant park let's see here saturday all right if it rains we can shelter

something if it rains you can lead a crowd of how many dozens of people into a bar 70 percent

yeah it's going up it was 66 yesterday so anyway anywho anywho uh after that that event will be

bryant park 3 to 5 p.m rain or shine and then after that a photo walk with joe from joe esposito

from our um yeah he's a street photographer in new york city and uh i think we're gonna get a

picture of the subway and the train terminal and great shots oculus i mean it'll be fun to do

inside stuff grand central station yeah we'll do a lot of stuff inside i think it's a different joe

but yes oh not joe esposito wrong joe oh i thought my god joe does everything i was gonna say joe's

everywhere joe esposito does the stickers it's joe and i can't remember his last name anyway

i'm pretty sure i'll know him when i see him

uh all right so breaking news just happened i'm sad to say uh earlier today uh federal court

rejected the uh internet um archives uh appeal of the decision to that that its library was uh

illegal the publishers has shut a company one is it the whole thing that's that's gone or just

that practice they did of giving away the books from the verge the internet archive has lost its

to lend out scanned ebooks without the approval of publishers

second circuit court of appeals ruled that permitting the internet archives digital library

the whole thing would i quote allow for wide-scale copying that deprives creators of compensation

and diminishes the incentive to produce new works this is wrong in every respect god it's so wrong

penguin random house wiley and harper collins sued ia over its claims the digital library

constitutes willful digital piracy and is not a good thing to do with the internet archive

the court said a digital library is not the same as a lending library as a book library

which is crazy because the way that it works is exactly like a real library i go and try and check

out a book i have it for three hours and then it goes away yeah what's the doctor at her first

what's it called when you buy something that you have a right as soon as we write a first refusal

no no no resale it's

i know what you're talking about uh here's what one other thing the court wrote on on the one hand

ebook licensing fees may impose a burden on libraries and reduce

access to creative work on the other hand authors have a right to be compensated in

connection with the copying and distribution of their original creations congress balanced

those competing planes claims upon the public interest in the copyright act we must uphold

that balance here uh i think it was john scalzi who wrote on blue sky saying

i love libraries every time they buy the books they lend you yep and there's a good chance you

may read a book and go i want to buy more of this author's works right they're good for authors

yes and a digital library is just as good as a regular library in fact the future of libraries

is obviously digital uh does the court want all libraries to stay you know maybe we should get

papyruses they'd be much more uh effective do they want us to do that or do they want to do it

stay in the in the dark ages or can we enter the new era with the same controls by the way you

have limited lending you have to buy copies of the books right the one thing the internet archive

does not do is buy the digital copies of the books they buy the books and scan them

um there is a petition i don't know if a petition makes much difference will they appeal they could

it is you know it's only

the second so my r is the one over that circuit um but it's expensive you know i don't there's a

chance to donate to the internet archive yeah they do great work i i donate monthly um and i

really this is very disappointing i said there's all kinds of works that i need for research i mean

old stuff uh about the linotype right now and uh a lot of it i can find on the internet archive and

i have to follow their rules and do what they say and you know but

so their digital library i guess is gone uh i here's a couple of things we should get cory doctor

on one of the things he says is look publishers don't like libraries period of any kind they

can't get rid of the ben franklin style book library yet but they're going to stop any

attempt to bring libraries into the 21st century and uh he's the google right scanning which they

lost right they lost to google

uh i'm looking i don't see a statement yet for the internet archive from the internet archive but

that story just broke brand new uh it's a big copyright case i think kathy gallus would probably

have something to say why don't you benito maybe send her a note see if she wants to pop in to yell

notably the appeal court ruling this is from wired rejects the internet archives argument

that its lending practices were shielded

by the internet archive's argument that it's lending practices were shielded by the internet archive

fair use calling it unpersuasive

i think it's worth noting here that this specifically i don't think it refers to

all of the internet archives online library it is specifically concerning

their national emergency library a program that started during the pandemic

to allow kind of wider access to 1.3 million if that's all they indexed

and previously uh you know those books had only been allowed to be checked out one at a time

but under this new program uh multiple people could borrow it at once

yeah so that's that's so important paris as to what exactly did we lose

because if if that's all we lost was that emergency program

as i remember so the internet archive started the national emergency library during covid in march

2020.

they suspended that was one where you had an unlimited number of books and all that stuff

they suspended that after covid kind of well also after they got sued and got sued but they still

offer offer a digital library as i understand it the the sticking point from the publisher's

point of view was not that they had a digital library they wanted the publishers to use the

system the um internet archive to use the system the publishers had set up where they would buy

ebooks and use uh technology to protect the ebooks

instead they were buying drm problem it was a drm problem they were buying books and scanning them

maybe it is maybe it's just a drm issue this is from tech crunch um the publishers which already

had an uneasy relationship with both the internet archive and the digital book lending community in

general sued soon after the program went in live in june 2020 the publishers contended that going

from single user borrowing to limitless borrowing essentially turned the system from a notional

library into a digital library and they were buying books and scanning them maybe it is maybe it's just a

unvarnished act of piracy for its part internet archive asserted that the use of books fell into

the fair use doctrine and the removal of limits was done in the public interest furthermore as a

non-profit organization the internet archive could have no uh like monetary or financial motivation

and the courts in this case disagreed actually though the courts did acknowledge that internet

archive was a non-profit organization and that was perhaps the one little bright light in this whole

i still don't know what is actually forbidden going forward that's what i believe for bit is

forbidden going forward is multi-user lending they can't land is you cannot have your scan of a

physical book and lend that out to all three of us at once only one person can you do it once at a

time i think i don't think so i don't think so internet archive uh statement from the director

of library services chris freeland said in today's opinion about the internet archives digital lending

that are available electronically elsewhere we were reviewing the opinion will continue to

defend the rights of libraries to own lend and preserve books uh the authors alliance

dave hansen executive director authors are researchers authors are readers ia's digital

library helps those authors create new works and supports their interests in seeing their works be

read this ruling may benefit the bottom line of the largest publishers and most prominent authors

but for most it will end up harming more than it will help this is the important point copy

right does not benefit authors cory doctor has said this again and again and it benefits since the

beginning it was not it was not the authors who wanted it it was the publishers and the booksellers

the publishers the internet archives legal woes are not over the music labels also sued over a

music digitization project i mean we knew that the internet archive uh i mean i've talked to

brewster kale the founder and i you know i said what about copyright so we'll worry about that

when the time comes but we think it's more important to start saving stuff now if we

wait till we get a clear clarity on that issue we'll never copy anything and we think it's really

important that we save everything for future because you know websites don't they come and go

i think it's fine that they've extended this to recordings to books

i think it's they're doing a very important work of digital preservation pretty cool i'm reading

i'm looking at the uh decision from the second circuit right now and i'm scrolling down and then

i suddenly see the name catherine

r gillis oh yeah she had an amicus brief yeah she did for uh the copia foundation which is

tech dirt's lobbying arm i don't see a story yet on tech dirt unlike other blogs here thank you

here is a um i'm going through in last august the internet archive posted a what this decision

means for our library i assume the same thing still because they yeah because they lost in

2023 and this is an appeal of that they say the lawsuit only concerns concerns our book lending

program uh the injunction

clarifies that publishers are going to notify us when they're commercially available books

are available on the internet archive and we will expeditiously remove them from lending

they also got an order from the judge agreeing with the internet archives request that this

injunction should only cover books available in electronic format from publishers not their full

catalog of books and prints that's actually good that's that's because there's a lot of old books

i really need it doesn't

significantly impact our other library services the internet archive may still digitize books for

preservation purposes and may still provide access to our digital collections in a number of ways

including through interlibrary loan making accessible formats available to people with

qualified print disabilities we may continue to display short portions of books as is consistent

with fair use um the injunction does not affect lending out of print books and the internet

archive will still make millions of public domain texts available to the public without restrictions

i think basically the internet archive is going to be the only book that's going to be available to

the public so basically what is happening here is publishers are saying for books that we sell an

ebook version of you cannot digitize the print version and make that accessible to people which

sucks but it is not as which is every book since yeah 20 years yeah and they'll do it

just for the sake of protecting it in this case the larger issue and i want to get kathy gillis

to explain this is a copyright issue that what they were doing was not viewed as uh fair use

right that's what it says about the internet archive so i think that's a big issue and i'm

going to go back to the first page yeah and so that's i mean that this is really the the

grander it affects more than just the internet archive it the judge ruled that scanning the book

and lending it but scanning is the issue is not a transformative fair use that was the internet

archives library that it was transformative it works like a traditional library did not violate

copyright law the judge said because the digital copies do not provide criticism commentary

or information about the originals or alter the works it's not transformative it's the court

concluded that ia's use of publishers books was not transformative so they don't have page 48 of

the decision here not only is ia's free digital library likely italicized to serve as a substitute

for the originals the undisputed evidence suggests it is intended italicized to achieve that exact

result ia copies the works in full and makes those copies available to the public in their entirety

it does not

do this to achieve a transformative secondary purpose but to supplant the originals it's also

to expand the originals to give them more audience not trying to put these guys out of business and

they buy these books just like a library buys the books it lends they're not trying to supplant the

publishers as scalzi pointed out this not only do i sell a copy or more because they said they buy

a new copy for every three or something like that ia itself advertises its digital books as

a free alternative to publishers print and ebooks

parenthesis quoting the open libraries project ensures libraries will not have to buy the same

content over and over simply because of a change in a format uh yeah so maybe yeah i mean i guess

it undermines the publisher's right to make money i mean i also argue i guess i get the reason why

publishers are doing this is because they don't want to lose even an inch but i think it's a

stretch to say that it's going to significantly increase the volume of the title so i guess that's

impact your bottom line a print scan of this being available in the internet library most

people who want to read an e-book are going to read an e-book they're not going to read a pdf

scan of a book we've been through this fight before with music music the music industry for

years held it you know napster and others uh reduced their profits and they were never able

to demonstrate it in fact in fact it brought people back to music it was the opposite about

this in books themselves that um when more books were available online through archives

there were greater sales of them it's pretty obvious and that's what happened and let me say

for the record my publisher of my next book is hashet and they ain't doing this in my interest

i'm not going to get one penny because of this decision not one um this is for their purposes

okay all right it's just one of many

you

big stories we're going to cover in today's blockbuster edition of this week in google

that was excitable that was excitable i'm excited now now let's see it let's see what

you can follow let's go to brazil yeah let's see where the coffee they put coffee in the coffee

in brazil uh brazil as you know has blocked x after musk ignored court orders kind of

weirdo because you haven't seen starlink in europe or profit b lets see if it doesn't

count now it was x and i think it was always x but the pearls of history werejed pavel

duroff and telegram it was bible i guess what happened in france with pavel duroff

and telegram so the supreme court which has now all weighed in on a single judge's order

and said yeah we agree as uh as blocked x and when starlink did not block x as other

internet service providers were supposed to do they started uh putting uh holds on starlink's

assets in brazil then elon caved and said okay okay okay we'll block x on the stars

or internet servers of chris uber do it then it was the tufts and scott but hilft what

we got we gonna try to set verklin fuke level player because it took all guys off of the

bill bar divers�� Start causes no problem with it White fair sam's welcome myит

on a Starlink as well.

A couple of interesting angles.

There is one.

He's advised his employees in other companies to get out of Brazil.

Yeah.

He,

this all started when he closed the office in Brazil.

Cause they don't have anybody after the judge threatened arrests for

ignoring his orders.

So,

uh,

Twitter lost by one count,

40 million daily active users.

You know,

who gave them Brazil blue sky,

blue sky,

2 million.

And man,

are they smug?

Yeah,

they should be.

No,

they shouldn't.

I went,

I went to blue skies here with everybody.

It wasn't everybody,

but the number of people were very smug about this and kind of dissing the

other.

You're telling me people on the internet are smug.

They were being insufferable.

Wow.

He found the place where they exist.

We didn't think they were there.

I can't believe.

Uh,

the judge said any person in Brazil who tried to use X with a,

uh,

V,

P N would be fined almost 90 or sorry,

$9,000 a day grows the finances of a star link to try to collect $3 million in

fines.

Now,

the way this comes down to,

I might defend Elon here because it comes down to,

you know,

it hurts,

doesn't it?

Yeah,

it does.

It's painful,

but it comes down to the judge in Brazil ordering X to take accounts down.

Yeah.

And,

uh,

the account,

well,

as you know,

why did they want the accounts down?

Well,

it's probably political.

They were claiming disinformation basically.

Yeah.

But you know,

define his information these days when you've got a political fight,

like they have in Brazil.

According to the times,

Musk and the justice have been sparring for months.

Musk says justice.

More ice is illegally censoring conservative voices.

Justice.

More ice says Musk is illegally obstructing his work to clean up the Brazilian internet.

I always get nervous when I hear the words,

clean up the internet.

The internet is disgusting.

You're never going to clean it.

And as you know,

president,

that's why we love it.

That's why we love it.

Yeah.

Who was voted out of an off out of office,

ruled ineligible to run.

He and his followers have used X,

uh,

to build up support for his return.

Uh,

the,

uh,

judge more ice is leading investigations into Bolsonaro.

Uh,

and,

uh,

and,

and as part of that,

he wants to block more than a hundred social media accounts associated with

right-wing pundits,

podcasters,

and federal lawmakers who in some cases have questioned Bolsonaro's election

loss.

So if these were,

uh,

election deniers in the United States,

see,

no,

we're protected here.

No,

no court could order Musk to take that,

take down an account of election denier on X,

right?

Right.

But in Brazil they did.

And now look,

Musk says he's a free speech absolutist.

He's not just try to say cisgender on Twitter and you'll know.

Uh,

but in this case,

he's,

he's defending the rights of,

of these,

uh,

of the,

of the political opposition to,

to,

to tweet.

Musk has called Mr.

More ice,

the justice,

a dictator and posted judge,

dozens of times about the judge on X,

accusing him of silencing conservative voices.

You know,

it's not,

I hate it when they use the word conservative.

Bolsonaro is not a conservative.

All,

all these words are meaningless.

Now religious is meaningless now.

Yeah.

Um,

right.

And left are meaningless.

Yeah.

But,

uh,

Musk,

when you know,

I mean,

I think must does have shareholders,

so not on X,

but on a Starlink for as a SpaceX for sure.

And Tesla and Tesla.

So I think when,

uh,

when they,

when they started to freeze the funds of,

uh,

SpaceX,

that got his attention,

you know,

what's interesting,

Leo is,

is the one hand I'm upset and nervous about all that we count on.

Musk for look at Ukraine.

Oh,

I know you and Starlink and all that,

right?

Yes.

I rely on Elon Musk.

I did the whole show from Starlink yesterday.

I'm doing it now from the all American Comcast that we all know.

And you know,

it's just,

this is an internet service provider.

They're all horrific.

Right.

Um,

but there's also the,

you know,

the poor astronauts in space now depend upon him for their lives.

You know,

it's just too much to pay for him,

but maybe it also shows a big deal with SpaceX for Starlink.

Yes.

All of which is very nerve making.

On the other hand,

it's interesting to see that Musk himself is vulnerable by having so many

tentacles.

There were so many ways to go after him in Brazil.

Yeah.

But in ways that we,

I don't think we are,

we wouldn't do,

but a lot of countries would.

I mean,

and it's also interesting now that we're talking about this for the second

time on the show,

second week in a row of companies effectively going or companies,

countries effectively going after the CEOs and executives of tech companies

who have refused to comply with local authorities or local judicial orders.

I wonder if this is kind of part of a bigger trend.

We're going to see where,

you know,

social media execs or prominent tech execs are going to be barred from traveling

to companies that they've pissed off.

Right.

What is this?

Against,

uh,

Zuckerberg by our,

even in this country,

I can't see Mark Zuckerberg being arrested for flying into America.

Uh,

presidential immunity.

Um,

sure.

Anybody on fifth Avenue?

Uh,

no,

it could happen.

That's the point of it.

What is the saying?

I disapprove of what you say,

but I will defend to the death.

You're right to say it.

Uh,

the real test of,

of your support of free speeches.

If you support the free speech of somebody with whom you vehemently disagree,

I vehemently disagree with Bolsonaro with Elon Musk.

Uh,

and I suspect,

uh,

there's a few things that Pavel Dorov has done that I would vehemently disagree with.

Uh,

I don't know where free speech has to end.

It's at the point where it's farming people.

Yes.

Um,

yeah.

Uh,

I mean,

at some point we should have on Jeff Kossoff.

Have you had him on because of section two 30?

Oh God,

we should have him.

He's the guy who wrote that book that he wrote the 26 words that created the internet.

And then he wrote another book about,

uh,

he goes crazy when people try to do the fire in the theater thing.

Cause it's it's wrong and everybody screws it up.

Yeah.

Well,

in fact,

it's not accurate,

right?

Exactly.

That's the point.

Yeah.

Um,

Jeff is,

uh,

brilliant and very approachable.

And he's a liar in a crowded theater is his latest book.

I love it.

That's a great title.

Great title.

Um,

so our,

our first amendment rights go back to Brandenburg versus Ohio,

1969.

Uh,

which held that unless speech is directed to inciting or producing,

producing imminent lawless action is likely or to incite or produce such action.

It's protected.

You cannot punish speech unless it's going to,

it's,

it's aimed at inciting or producing imminent lawless action.

And it's likely to do so.

And we can think of,

we can think of,

uh,

things in our recent history that are definitely that.

Well,

that's the argument about the sixth.

Yeah.

But,

uh,

yeah,

I don't,

boy,

I don't know.

It's not enough to merely advocate violence.

And the other issue here is that,

and I harp on this,

but it's important to remember that choice is speech too.

So that each of these platforms has the choice and should not be compelled to

carry speech or compelled not to.

Except when it is illegal.

Right.

And there is illegal speech.

Right.

Well,

anyway,

uh,

New York times is on it.

Uh,

I haven't seen that account in a while.

I know,

but you don't need,

they don't really,

it's not really,

it's not needed.

New York times is on it.

They don't,

they're on it.

They don't,

there's no parody necessary of the New York times telegrams.

Founders indictment thrusts encryption into the spotlight.

Spotlight.

Here we go.

But,

but it,

it does in a way,

right?

This is Mike Isaac and the sure of Frankel writing.

Here's part of the problem.

We,

the French authorities aren't really very clear about what he did and didn't

do,

but it sounds like what they didn't like is he didn't give them the keys,

the backdoor keys to encrypted speech.

Um,

but it is also the case that he did not moderate very effectively,

clearly illegal and even worse,

awful,

reprehensible stuff on telegram.

So maybe that's all they're going after him for.

Um,

they have,

they didn't go after signal,

right?

Which is really,

and by the way,

Steve yesterday did a great bit,

uh,

quoting Matthew green,

the encryptionist from Johns Hopkins guy.

We really respect,

uh,

about telegrams encryption in which he said there,

there it's not encrypted.

Yeah,

it's,

it's not encrypted.

So it's,

uh,

I don't know though,

if that changes the,

uh,

fundamental question of,

should governments be able to get a backdoor into encryption,

uh,

signal,

which is truly encrypted,

effectively encrypted,

uh,

Apple's eye message,

RCS from Google,

which,

which are effectively ended and encrypted.

The problem,

and Steve pointed this out,

the problem with telegram and the reason they might be more vulnerable is

they have the keys to all the encryption.

So there telegram cannot claim that we can't see into those messages.

They can.

So interesting.

I didn't know.

Yeah.

So that changes the whole,

the whole thing.

Yeah.

It's not true.

End to end.

At least that was what Matthew Green and Steve Gibson said yesterday.

Of course,

Durov,

who is a real character has been going after signal and WhatsApp saying there,

the government has back doors into them,

but not into us.

I think it's quite the opposite to be honest with you.

It's unknown,

you know,

what's going on there.

Uh,

he,

he called,

uh,

telegram secret chat feature,

which is hard to use.

Takes it's four pages deep to turn it on.

And it is only on,

uh,

messages one-to-one.

It is not on group messages.

He called it that secret chat feature quote,

the only popular method of communication that is verifiably private.

It's not verifiably private.

In fact,

it's highly unlikely that it is.

So I think that,

and the time says all this,

Mike Isaac says all this,

he knows that.

So,

uh,

it may be that it really isn't a test of encryption.

It's a test of,

of whether Dura was willing to,

uh,

open up the server to people.

Cause they know,

cause telegram knows,

um,

exactly what's in those messages.

Uh,

Zach,

it's not a British barrister at field Fisher,

who specializes in data and privacy issues.

According to the times telegram is one of the few services that is not end to end encrypted by default.

That could have been part of its downfall because everything's out in the air.

It's in the open for everyone to see.

Um,

will Cath guard had current head of WhatsApp.

I wish I could say it was a settled debate that more security is better.

I think encryption is still under threat in parts of the world.

So that's for sure.

By the way,

Elon did get off.

This surprises me.

I don't know.

Don't ever,

don't ever leave that sentence.

Yeah,

you gotta finish that sentence.

Don't breathe.

At that moment.

At that moment,

please.

And we'll be back after this word,

after this breaking news,

breaking news,

Elon got,

uh,

the courts,

you don't beat a suit.

No,

I can't say that either.

Uh,

remember the,

he was promoting Doge coin.

He,

but he was promoting it in kind of a weird way.

Here's one of the tweets,

baby Doge do,

do,

baby Doge do,

do,

do.

Uh,

he,

uh,

said that Tesla,

Tesla,

I know I went to law school and became a judge Tesla was,

they said,

he said,

uh,

Tesla would accept Doge coin.

His payment didn't.

I don't think,

uh,

he,

uh,

he had a tweet that said one word Doge and,

and this,

the people who are suing were people who lost money,

investing in this meme,

Bitcoin saying,

Elon told us it'd be good.

The New York federal judge dismissed the claims Thursday,

finding that Musk's statements were aspiration.

Rather than factual and susceptible.

That's how I describe all of my tweets,

actually aspirational and further,

no reasonable investor could rely on them.

Well,

right.

Wait,

wait,

but he didn't say this is not financial advice.

He doesn't have to say that if I,

you know,

I don't think he,

if I,

if a guy in a,

in a Mexican sombrero shirt told you,

you should buy Leo coin.

Actually,

you took that.

What advice would I be liable?

This may seem like kind of a silly story,

but I bet it's going to have interesting,

uh,

implications as far as precedent goes,

because if you guys were one of my pet interests is,

um,

following the meme stock cults through this day,

you know,

kind of the whole game.

Stop going to these strange people.

That's not weird.

That is fascinating.

Okay.

It's fascinating.

We all remember the whole thing.

Oh,

it's crazy.

We all remember the big game.

Stop.

Boom of whenever that was,

that is just the beginning.

Of course,

there are still the game.

Stop apes as they're called out there.

There are the people who are stumping for AMC and things like that.

The part that I'm fascinated by are the people who are still stumping for bed,

bath and beyond,

even though their shares have been,

uh,

um,

no tanking.

Well,

even when games,

it wasn't like,

didn't have much of a future.

The thing that has been happening in this community lately,

sometime in the last,

I don't know,

six months or so,

uh,

a guy who used to go by,

I guess,

goes by the name of roaring kitty,

who had set off the original game.

Stop,

uh,

meme bubble.

He had been basically not active online ever since the first market crash.

People assume that he was just out there enjoying his,

you know,

riches or whatever.

He came back sometime within the last,

I don't know,

two or three months.

Uh,

I don't know.

He came back sometime within the last six months,

and the only thing his Twitter account posted was a photo.

It was like a meme image of a man sitting,

leaning forward,

which I guess had previously been shared by the game.

Stop Twitter account and game.

Stop shares.

As a result of him,

just tweeting this image,

no information about stock.

The game.

Stop shares went through the roof and a whole other boom and bust started.

I think he did a version of this one or two times,

and people online were kind of speculating,

oh this guy is clearly just trying to you know uh you know milk his tweets are memes they don't

have any text they're just pictures and video but i bet what like the precedent from this elon musk

case is going to be applied in this because many people online i mean i'm sure when when there's

smoke there's fire in this case many people online were saying that this could be securities fraud

you have all these you know foolish people who are buying into the stock thinking that they're god

roaring kitty has come back and is going to usher in this new age of um you know uh prosperity for

these stocks and i'm sure once many of those people felt the burn and realized that didn't

actually exist some of them are going to sue um but imagine that court case this is this is like

q look at these cryptic tweets it's totally there's an uno reverse card that's all yeah that's

very cryptic right it's so fascinating guys it is like it is exactly

like q and on the um it's better to not be explicit it's better to let people project

their beliefs onto what you're posting right absolutely and this is currently i guess an

area where this is currently playing out is with ryan cohen the ceo of gamestop of gamestop he uh

i believe i'm not he's being involved in some sort of case about whether or not he pushed people

to invest in bed bath and beyond when

the stock was crashing um and there's a really interesting transcript of his uh deposition

with 30 people he's like you know i was just s posting as they call it i was just posting memes

online but it's quite fascinating because the way that these communities interpret these tweets

is like he knows exactly what he's doing he'll post a rocket ship emoji and people will go crazy

and buy more gamestop or one of these other stocks there are at least two documentaries already on

the game

stop thing there's a netflix uh documentary called eat the rich and there's an msnbc documentary

there's a new one in the in the works what's fascinating is is paris is that can you imagine

the court case if it was bad enough to have that elon musk tweet be a matter of a court case

even if they found this guy's name and they found his address and they took him

to task there's no way you could have a legal discussion about the implications

made that people um themselves come to yeah so it's amazing diamond hands did you get involved

in that at all did you invest anything no you know no but i do just find it sickeningly fascinating

paris i gotta i gotta ask you though as an intervention here do you similarly are you

similarly fascinated by crypto no oh thank god crypto is just i was worried there

crypto is related though isn't it i mean crypto often has i mean this is what we're talking about

with dogecoin people have these boom and bust cycles i just think so much of it is that that

it's a little it's a little less interesting to me i mean i'm particularly interested in the

bed bath and beyond they call them baggies bag holders um because it is such an interesting

you have to be in such an interesting psychological state to have invested in

first of all invested in stock for bed bath and beyond seen it gone bankrupt like see it filing

for bankruptcy continued to buy more stock of a company that has filed for bankruptcy saw your

shares get canceled because they went bankrupt and still believe that you are invested in bed

bath and beyond and that actually they're they're kind of their uh galaxy brain version of this the

whole q anon conspiracy theory is that ryan cohen and a couple of other executives are going to

combine all these companies into a super company uh potentially called teddy that will involve

uh gamestop bed bath and beyond uh amc a bunch of other stuff and it's just nonsense this is why

this is why our political life is in such disarray it's the same kind of credulous

hopeful wishful thinking whether it's um a meme stock a cryptocurrency or a political figure

there's a lot of this what is wrong with us is it are you still in uh favor of the hannah erin's

theory that's that we're all troubled loners and well no we're not all i think there's actually i

think that's i'm actually disturbed by all the talk from the surgeon general and new york times

columnists that we have this epidemic of loneliness he needs to shut up uh yeah i agree i think that's

and i think it gets used overused uh but but i still do hold to erin's theory that uh it's more

about kornhauser to get into sociology here about not having any other connection to the

world there's no competing connections for you and so that makes you vulnerable as an individual

to say oh i'll join this cult sure um child molesters in the pizza parlor yeah it makes

sense to me and that's how i'll join it is by saying those things so that's that's a little

different from loneliness per se you can be very lonely in a crowd as we said last week

um yeah it is inherently an act of community that these people are doing that's right they

believe that it is but it's a fake community and their fellow community

against the world and it's also part of it is a like mental trick to where these people for some

reason maybe feel like left out of larger discussion or that you know things haven't

gone their way and by ascribing to these belief systems yeah they get to believe that they are

actually smarter than everybody else that they understand some grand plan that is going on and

it makes the world make sense in the case of the meme stock people kind of the unifying theory of

it

is that uh there are all these large like market maker type forces all these financial companies

that are out there shorting the stocks and really just out there trying to stick it to the little guy

and for people who are living in an increasingly uh economically term like uh turmoiled world

that sort of thinking would make sense well and they're not wrong you can't win in a market that's

controlled by computers that can operate in a millisecond and you can't so

is it worse now than it was there've always been uh out of sync is saying in our discord there's

there's always been this kind of thing's always been around but it used to be a small number of

people and now it's they burned witches in the day yeah look at the salem which is a classic

example of kind of a spreading hysteria that these girls were witches and uh and horrible

things happened but yeah and also our mythology in america like american mythology is a lot of

special boy stuff like there's always like the one special boy who's like the key to everything

horatio alger yeah and everybody thinks that they're the special boy you know right that's

benito uh gonzalez our technical director editor and very astute who was raised in the philippines

under marcos so has a very different perspective on uh on on life in the united states um yeah we

we very we talked about this uh on twit on sunday uh when we're talking about japan japanese culture

versus

american culture uh japanese culture is a collective society and ours is very much an

individualistic society and maybe that's one of the things that although you've got crazy

conspiracy theories in every culture i would imagine i don't think no i don't think we're

unique to them do you think benito under uh marcos there were people in the philippines who were you

know looking to conspiracies and other things to understand and make sense of their world

i mean i guess that's possible but a lot of what happened uh in the early 80s when that

in the late 70s early 80s was um was like a brain drain really people fled so the smart people just

got out yeah like everybody fled like your dad just got the hell out actually my dad came back

to yeah oh came back to the philippines or came back to the united states they came back to the

philippines to fight back oh good for him yeah he was in a kino that's why right yeah yeah

what have i asked you this benito what do you think of the news site rappler

oh it's great uh maria resa is a treasure yeah i don't know that what's rappler

well you can explain about it oh it's a philippine filipino uh news site you've heard of maria resa

she won the Nobel prize winner she got that's right out of the country by deterrent when she

went after him for all the drug stuff yeah but so why do you think the philippines are is prone to

see this is another question well see the philippines like we are pretty similar actually

pretty similar to america in political thinking and all this kind of stuff because i mean

we like america was our last colonizer so like we have a lot of yeah uh you know similarities

to american culture or like there's a lot of aspirations to be like american culture

but what's with the strongmen you think once a country and one it's one it's liberty and

it's democracy that wouldn't go back yeah i mean that has a lot to do with

i mean same thing misinformation like that story has been retold now like the marco story is now

a different story like people believe something different now over there not necessarily everybody

and not totally different but there are competing stories now of the of history and like that's not

that's not those who do not remember history are destined to repeat it and you know we have

another marcos in uh in power now right and he seems to be like so far at least from what i've

seen in duterte yeah and he's been okay like okay which is you know which is uh that's like

that's like what your wife's saying it's fine it's okay he's fine he's fine he's doing a lot

of washing also of the of the past so and i always get nervous because these guys often come in as

reformers uh and then get power then start to consolidate power then suddenly they're the bad

guy yeah i mean that's true everywhere political

oh i'm not just saying the philippines it's everywhere absolutely

absolutely all right let's take a little uh break and on that bad note we'll talk about something

happy i'll find it don't worry america must free itself from the tyranny of the penny

and the times is on it we'll talk about that in just a little bit see how i tied that right in

uh our show today brought to you

by our fine friends at veem v double e a m we actually stopped covering ransomware attacks

every week on security now because they're just so commonplace they're just all the time they're

up 84 this year and i always wonder how do you how do you get burned by a ransomware attack

don't you have a good backup well it turns out no a lot of people don't without your data

when you lose your data your customer trust turns to digital dust

that's why

you need veem veems data listen to this data protection and ransomware recovery

ensures that you can secure and restore your enterprise data

wherever and whenever you need it no matter what happens they're the number one

global market leader in data resilience and i'll tell you how you know veems great they're trusted

by over 77 of the fortune 500 to keep their businesses running when digital disruptions

like ransomware strikes

percent of the fortune 500 so really what that's telling me is that all those headlines about the

data loss and paying the ransomware gangs and all that that's the 23 percent that's the that's the

people don't have veem get veem veem lets you back up and recover your data instantly across your

entire cloud ecosystem with veem you could proactively detect malicious activity stop

it in its tracks you can remove the guest work by automating your recovery plans and policies you

have a recovery plan and policy right it's up to they right get real-time support from ransomware

recovery experts should the worst happen it's veem look i don't have to tell you data is the

lifeblood of your business get data resilient with veem v-e-e-a-m go to veem.com to learn more

i this it's uh just like i don't understand why you wouldn't we thank them so much for their

support of this week in google and we thank you for your support tell them when you when you go

to veem.com say yeah we heard about it on

veem finally i've been talking we talked about uh monetary policy and the bimetallization and

the gold standard right last couple of weeks ago or last week and we all we also talked about

my father-in-law's mountain of pennies mountain of pennies well the times must be listening because

this week they ain't listening to me they said you know that jarvis once in a blue moon comes

up with an interesting story this week in the new york times magazine look at that

mountain of pennies could be from your dad the penny may seem like a harmless coin says the new

york times and you have to dig through all these pennies for the next line but a few things

symbolize our national dysfunction more than the inability to stop minting this worthless currency

we spend 90 million dollars a year minting pennies and the funny thing about pennies is

they don't get back in circulation you don't spend

pennies do you no you've got them in a jar somewhere in your closet and you're katie weaver

is so good to the writer of this this is a great piece and she and she nails it she says there's

one reason and one reason only that we still have pennies everybody knows it's a waste of money that

the mint doesn't need it no one needs pennies but the company that makes the zinc blanks that go

inside of every penny and has made a lot of money and has made a lot of money and has made a lot of

billions of dollars in federal money making though they're the only company the one company

that makes them runs this page pennies.org americans for common sense acc conducts research

and provides information to congress and the executive branch on the value and benefits of

the penny there is no value there's no benefit the the penny is basically being printed minted

it goes into your pocket because you know you you buy something for 8.99 and you get a penny back

and then from your pocket into a jar something like 60 or 70 percent of all pennies minted are

disappeared because they're all going to jeff's father-in-law there are yes a conservative estimate

says there are 240 billion pennies lying around in the united states about seven dollars and 24

cents for everybody living in the u.s.

all right let me ask two questions if they're minted and disappear isn't that good for the

government because the government originally sells the pennies to the bank to sell to the

store to give to us isn't that isn't that like there's some why would that be good seniorage

right i'm just saying for the government's interest they get they get extra money uh it's

like it's like how i have an inspired metro card in new york i'll tell you why there's

still five dollars on it and i'm not gonna go to trouble getting it back so new york has my five

dollars i explained this to you last week this is called seniorage when you make more money

selling the coin than it costs to make it the problem is it costs three cents to make a penny

right they're negative two cents for every penny they sell it's reverse seniorage

so it's clearly a money loser it's estimated that two-thirds

of all the pennies made are out of circulation gone in fact i'm in my in my basement right now

yeah yeah i do think it would be great if we just had quarters i think that would really make

everything in my life she's going overboard she's killing the nickel and the dime we don't need

nickels and dimes what we just need quarters you lose that great part and you know why you need

quarters you lose a whole verb i know why paris needs quarters laundry yeah i remember

when i was your age the the the constant battle to get more quarters so you could do your laundry

i mean if i'm going to be honest right now i do not need quarters because you've had only no the

only laundromat near me closed down to be replaced by a high rise so i have to get my laundry um

picked up and done for me which i mean is nice but i pay via credit card for that

if the bank's actually

could take our pennies if we could give them a hundred dollars worth of pennies and give us a

hundred dollars back well coin star can do that yeah and they take 20 percent or something much

better than nothing i think it's the coin star lobby that's keeping pennies around here here's

my other question what is that retail pricing so-called is you don't charge nine dollars you

charge 8.99 and because we think it's nine dollars and so that penny is part of retail

marketing but there's tax on top of that so well

i mean here's the thing then they will have to do 95 cents which how much will be a problem for

companies if they have to lose out in those four cents but i think they'll survive let me ask you

paris how often do you actually pay cash for anything uh it depends i mean i try to carry

around cash yeah i only carry around cash for tips everything else is credit card or touch to pay

i don't buy things here's five dollars give me five dollars with the gas nobody does that anymore

buying something that's like uh not a coffee but is under like six dollars i want to pay for it in

cash because i know a lot of local merchants around here it ends up costing them more money

to pay the credit card fees but you're very my my grilled cheese black bean burrito taco bell

comes out to 532 and i pay cash oh but taco bell taco bell you don't need to be doing that for them

okay first of all i don't you pay cash but you don't pay five dollars thirty

cents you give them six dollars or ten dollars oh and you get change i can break it yeah and

what happens to the coin it goes in the middle part of my billfold and i hate it i hate that

it's there it makes it harder to close it it i will never see it again until it becomes too bulky

that i have to do something about it and then i go to starbucks though and i want to i tip in

coins in starbucks so i'm in 38 direct 38th director from 2006 to 2011 says i went to

congress saying listen

i'm losing 90 million dollars a year on pennies i said you guys need to pass a law forcing me to

change it the mint knows it's a bad idea they can't stop congress has to stop them obama said

when he was president it's a good metaphor for some of the larger problems of the u.s government

it's very hard to get rid of things that don't work you need legislation and uh the problem is

these guys at pennies.org are making sure

that members of congress want to preserve the penny so who owns that company what is the

company that's a good question so let me find the company's called artisan a-r-t-a-z-n they're

in greenville tennessee for 43 years artisan has held contracts with the treasury department to

manufacture the zinc blanks because the penny is just zinc covered with a thin coat of copper

to look like a penny that the mint stamps in one cent coins

more than a billion and one hundred thousand dollars a year to preserve the penny so who owns that

revenue since 2008 for artisan this company's lobbying efforts according to uh jerkowski who is

that uh he worked at the mint i guess i have to i hate when i have to go backwards in articles to

figure out who jerkowski is can they just put a link back to the first mention anyway uh this

person i think a former mint director of the mint or maybe pr for the mint said uh this company

artisan's lobbying efforts is the number one reason why artisan's lobbying efforts are so

non-profit party organization buyers earn to invest in communities where part and parcel

demand key地 for int nostra's

quote

and best

is

if

you

if

no

class

and

you

do

nothing

just

research to artisan it was charted in zinc products so uh yeah a lot of credit to katie

weaver she writes for the magazine and katie uh famously wrote one of my favorite new york

magazine pieces which is what is glitter she did you know what this is i think she's like you

she goes deep on the things that nobody really thinks about we just accept as part of life you

want okay here's an interesting fact about this you want you want to know where this company

started artisan where in a in a treasured american ball jars what they make the ball

mason jars that grandma's used to that's the ball hand because they were zinc uh tops oh this is

such a fun fact jeff in 1934 the ball brothers company managed the largest zinc strip rolling

mill in the world creating new applications for the element along the way and the company

structure

was evolving as well a name change to ball corporation took place in 1969 two decades

later altrista corporation was formed comprised of three previous ball corp companies this entity

became the nucleus of what became jordan process solutions a division of jordan corp

by the way this is so brilliant so the barge ball jar folks split into two different divisions

jordan which makes the jars

artisan which ends with zn

or zinc which makes the lids

in may 2019 as jordan zinc products was nearing its 50-year mark jordan process solutions was

purchased by one rock capital partners ah oh no oh no private equity private equity firm was

focused on creating value by investing in high potential middle market companies what are you

reading from right now jeff i'm reading from uh

a business journal

bjournal.com

uh the cry cities virginia i will do that

post it to the chat right now

and uh yeah so it was i mean this was a feature company about how change comes to a half century

old company so when art is in it on its pennies.org lobbying site is uh they have an faq of why

we need pennies and they say poor people poor people use pennies did you know that

Rich people give them pennies and nothing more.

Here, kid.

Here's a penny.

Go fetch me a turkey.

Young and elderly and minorities use cash more frequently.

Well, I'll buy you that.

But do they use pennies?

Sociologists, by the way, this is a well-researched piece.

Sociologists I consulted whose fieldwork examines the economics of American poverty said, no.

Carrying around bundles of hundreds of pennies to purchase a beverage doesn't seem feasible.

Well, when you're really pissed off at somebody and you lose a suit and you dump a whole truck worth of pennies on their driveway, that's useful.

That is pretty good.

The other people who need these pennies, they claim pennies that are claims are charities.

The penny aids charities in raising hundreds of millions of dollars every year for important causes.

They're trying hard.

They're trying.

Okay.

Contact.

Contacted the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society, which Weller describes as relying significantly on small yet critical penny contributions to inquire about its coin dependence.

Coker Powell, the executive VP and chief revenue officer, said the society has discontinued physical coin collection programs and donations of spare change had slowed in recent decades.

Now, do stores in New York to the bodegas and so forth still have the little thing at the front where it says, give a penny, take a penny?

Yeah, you're there sometimes.

It seems like I see less of those.

Fewer of those.

Yeah.

You don't.

Because we've given up the pennies.

Dot org has won.

We take the pennies.

We put them in a bell jar in our basement.

Then we sell them to Jeff's grandpa.

I will say, I think the fun fact of the penny monopoly.

Company being an offshoot from the bell jar company is my favorite genre of fun fact.

Yeah, that's the kind of thing.

This is going to be something I cite to people forever, much like a similar fun fact, which is, do you guys know Hydro Flask or OXO, the kitchen goods company?

Yeah, I love OXO.

Yeah, they are.

They are.

Plus, I believe the same.

They're the same.

They're owned by the same company that also operates products like licensed brands like Vicks, Honeywell.

They're owned by this company called Helen of Troy.

Get that red string out, folks.

We've got some connections.

Helen of Troy is notable because the company underwent a tax inversion where it basically reorganized into a Bermuda company in 1993.

It basically did such an aggressive.

Attempt at avoiding taxes that there are new tax laws in the U.S. named after it called the Helen of Troy rules to, I guess, prohibit about people trying to get away from their tax liability.

And every single time I see a Hydro Flask or like a Vicks Vapor Rub or a kitchen tool from OXO, I'm like, no, I mean, I still use OXO stuff.

It's great.

But I just think it's very funny that they're owned by a company that did such a big.

Tax aversion that there are rules based after it in the U.S.

They should call those the OXO rules, although the Helen of Troy rules is actually pretty fun.

Pretty good.

Yeah.

You know, what's amazing about these private equity places is you try to search Google for one rock capital partners.

Nothing.

Yeah.

That's a shell game because they keep changing.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Well, search for Helen of Troy.

That's also hard.

What are you going to find?

Right.

Let me I got to ask you, though, like, what if we do?

Let's say we phase out the penny.

Right.

And then you're at a store and something costs ten dollars and one cent.

What happens?

There's a five cents.

You pay the five cents or are they losing one cent?

Well, that's the thing.

Now we do round down, don't we?

Yeah.

Do we?

The problem is in what way?

Well, you to the closest on your taxes and stuff.

No, you've got an appointment, you know, because the problem is that you find you could only do to the five cent price.

But when tax.

The sales taxes are a percentage, you will end up with pennies.

Exactly.

So someone's going to lose.

It's either us or it's going to be the corporations and the corporations are going to lose.

So I'm guessing that's why.

This is why.

I wonder with, you know, because what Jeff was talking about earlier, all these companies price their products like three ninety nine.

So you don't think about the fact it's four.

Right.

It's not like they're going to.

Are they going to price it at four?

Are they going to take that four cent loss and price it at three ninety five?

So that you don't.

He's going to pay cash in.

Ten years.

Nothing's going to be cash, right?

Yeah, that's a very privileged position, Leo.

Oh, Poco in our discord says military bases overseas don't use pennies.

If the cost is one penny or two pennies on something, they round down.

And if it's like three cents or four cents, they round up.

Same in Canada.

Same in Australia.

They don't have pennies in Canada.

They outlawed them years ago.

Right.

By the way, they also don't have Coinstar machines.

Katie says since debuting in 1992, Coinstar has processed.

One trillion coins worth sixty seven billion dollars, of which they take twelve and a

half percent plus a service fee.

Honestly, I would have expected that to be higher.

So the coins are trucked to a regional processing center.

What happens to them then?

Where are the coins go?

Divided by denomination.

I'm glad you asked.

Most end up inside enormous white cubes called ballistic bags, many of which are distributed

into locked cages designated by banks.

When a ballistic bag of pennies, there's a phrase you don't hear a lot, is deposited

into, say, a Bank of America cage.

Bank of America sends Coinstar an electronic deposit equal to the value of the coin cube.

Now, let's say a store needs pennies.

It can call the bank to request a delivery.

The bank calls them up from the cube and has them sausage into penny rolls.

You've seen those when you were a kid.

I bet even you, Paris, when you were a kid, did your parents say, here, roll these pennies?

Yes.

Yeah.

I'm not sure if it was pennies, but a coin of some sort.

Coins.

Yeah.

I loved my little bank that you put a coin in and it would sort them out, the things,

and then you'd put them in the rolls.

Anyway, the rolled pennies are dumped into the compartment of a cash register door where

they remain piled up until they're handed over as change in a cash transaction and then

into your cup holder and then into your drawer and then into the Coinstar machine for the

round trip.

So you might want to know that.

One Rock also created a major merger in healthy hydration in selling us plastic bottles with

free water inside.

So Poland Spring, Deer Park.

Oh, wait a minute.

The water's free.

You're buying the bottle?

Yeah.

You're buying the bottle because we can get water anywhere.

What the hell?

Wait, is that what I'm paying for when I buy water at the bodega?

I'm buying the bottle?

Yeah.

OneRock.com slash portfolio.

And the gas it took for them to bring that bottle to you.

Right.

I do not buy bottled water.

I am so against bottled water.

Look at this, Mike.

My coffee is in a metal reusable thermos jar.

How many of those do you own?

Reusable thermoses?

Three or four.

This is a new one I just bought because I wanted it exactly the size that my coffee maker.

So I put it under the coffee maker and it drips it right into that.

So that's nice.

14 ounces of wine brewed.

Freshly ground coffee from South Carolina.

Right there.

Private equity.

They own Petroplex.

A leading pure play provider of acid stimulation and remedial cementing solutions in the Permian Basin.

Let's buy that.

You got to get your acid somewhere.

It's true.

Jeez.

It's not from a guy in the street corner.

Pandemic.

Actually caused a coin star crisis because people didn't use coins, right?

Well, there was already a coin shortage going into the pandemic and it was made worse, obviously, by the pandemic.

Coin star deposits dropped by 60% at the start of the panic, a pandemic, which turned into a panic.

As a result, banks which rely on coin started choreographed the nationwide coin recirculation ballet.

Such a good article.

Received 60% fewer coins.

Unusual.

That's why you saw the coin shortage.

That's why.

Interesting.

Yep.

It wasn't a shortage of coins or plenty of coins.

They were just sitting in jars.

Yeah, they weren't circulating.

Space.

Because we were using.

Penny delivery of our groceries.

She says coin star is practically the sole medium by which pennies churned out with trog trochilidine vigor.

I don't know that word.

Trochilidine.

Wow.

This is this is good.

Crocodillian?

Crocodillian vigor.

T-R-O-C-H-I-L-I-D-I-N-E vigor.

Wait a minute.

There's I got to find out what that means.

Let me look that up.

I can't even.

My Mac doesn't even know.

It doesn't have a definition.

Crocodillian?

No.

T-T-R-O-C-H-I-L-I-N-I-N-E vigor.

Vigor.

I-d-I-O-T-I-N-I-O-V-I-V-I-G-O-U-S-E-L-U-T-I-R-O-C-H-I-L-I-V-I-O-T-H.

I don't know.

Why is that?

I don't know.

Oh, no.

An adjective.

Well, you're gonna love this.

You can love this.

Boy, folks, are we going down deeper and deeper in the Red Hole.

It's a little tricky.

T-R-O-C-H-I-L-I-N-E vigor.

is an adjective that means relating

to hummingbirds.

What?

It comes from the Latin word

trochleaday and the English suffix

ein. The earliest known use of the word

was in the 1880s, Proceedings

of the Zoological Society. Now, where

the hell did she come up with that?

It's a group of hummingbirds,

like a pack of wolves. It's a trochleaday

of hummingbirds. So, the pennies are churned out

with trochleadine vigor

by the mint

and they migrate around the United States.

I think that's a stretch, but anyway.

Like a hummingbird, fast like a hummingbird, yeah, okay.

She's going to be very proud.

Her story is the first Google reference

for the word.

There are 18,000

Coinstar machines in the United States.

92% of Americans live within

five miles.

I figured there must be other ones,

but that's apparently kind of like Dominate.

That's so interesting.

I didn't realize Coinstar was...

So, interestingly...

It could be a penny stock that you

cause a meme for, but you could start that.

All the other results when I

search the word trochleadine

are either, you know, dictionary

definitions or people tweeting about

this article.

Of course it is. She got them.

So, interestingly,

I think you could start a

penny stock rush here

on Coinstar.

I think you could experiment with it yourself.

Coinstar does not

do well in Minnesota.

Owing to the ferocious

commitment to Midwestern

friendliness, a disproportionate number

of Minnesota bank locations

still handle coins for free.

You don't need a Coinstar.

This is such a good article.

TD Bank was famous

for having machines. They finally got rid of them.

Yeah. No, Coinstar ended up...

This is

an example of late-stage capitalism.

But maybe it's where capitalism

succeeds.

This company makes 12.5% plus

59 cents a transaction

taking your pennies and giving

them back to the banks so they

can give them back to you.

What a business.

Okay, guess who owns

Coinstar?

Not

Vivo. Yes, Apollo

Global Management. Oh, my God!

Of course

they do.

Of course.

Apollo owns everything.

So the Canadians dumped pennies

and nothing bad happened. How come I

still have Canadian pennies?

It got rid of the penny in 2013 because

it cost 1.6 cents

to produce and is essentially

worthless. They did not...

Okay, so this is maybe the way

forward. Wait, wait, wait. Briefs

aside. Coinstar

in 2013

rebranded to be Outerwall

Inc. At that time

it owned... It had

three separate components. One was

GoATM, which I don't know what that is. The other part

Coinstar and the third part Redbox.

Then when Apollo

Global Management bought them

they became three separate business entities.

Now Redbox is owned by

Chicken Soup for the Soul.

Yeah, but it's gone under now.

That was a bad purchase by Chicken Soup

for the Soul. I'm not

surprised. I think if you name a company Chicken Soup

for the Soul, you're kind of probably not

the best business person in the world.

Okay, one more thing.

How Coinstar

ended up owning Redbox

was in February

2009. It bought

all remaining shares

of Redbox from

McDonald's.

Which I guess had previously

owned... Because McDonald's had Redboxes in

franchises, I think. That's crazy.

I didn't realize that.

We're truly down the rabbit hole now, guys.

This is now a rat hole. It's much deeper.

But it is very much the case

that Americans, and you've seen this as we've

done this story,

our audience...

Oh, what are we going to do without pennies?

No.

Rounding opponents point out that a disproportionate

number of prices, Benito,

end in double nines.

So companies will make

all the money with their rounding up.

The largest single transaction

Coinstar has done was

$13,000 in pennies

from a man in Alabama.

I was so excited.

How much does that weigh?

I can tell you a lot.

If I went downstairs right now to get a box,

really, a box of pennies is very heavy.

Actually, we know this because it's right up

at the front of the article.

Katie does all the research you'd want to know.

And she tells us

that

$100 worth of pennies

weighs over 55 pounds.

So for every $100,

55 pounds. How much money?

Well, get a load of this.

Pennies minted after 1983

weigh...

2.5 grams each.

That's because of the thing.

Pennies minted between 1865 and 1982

weigh 3.11 grams each.

Because copper's heavier.

Pennies minted between 1859 and 1864

weighed 4.67 grams each.

Jeff Gore, professor of biophysics

at MIT,

is the creator of what is now

called Citizens to Retire

the U.S. Penny.

There are lots of problems in the world

that are important and difficult.

Public equity is going to go after that person.

They're going to do something awful to them.

Gore said, but this is not one of them.

The cost of penny production

is the dearest cost

is not the money spent manufacturing

and distributing them, but that the cent

does the opposite of what currency is supposed to do,

facilitate transactions.

People think that because it exists

and is used, it means it's useful.

It's not.

Is there a simple process

to extract the copper from these pennies?

They're not made of copper.

But there's some.

Mostly you get a lot of bell jar lids.

Here's a question for you.

In the old days,

if your fuse went out,

you risked death by putting a penny

in the fuse, though.

That won't work with zinc now, right?

No.

Which is good.

It's probably saved many people's lives.

Anyway, Katie,

we were well done.

Great article.

Interesting use of tricholodyne,

which is weird.

It's funny that so many people...

When I was a kid,

reporter in the Chicago Tribune,

there were a bunch of writers there

who had a bet.

They each had a word they had to manage

to get into a Tribune article.

And I'll bet that's one of them.

The friend I knew,

this is going to be horrible,

don't Google it,

his word to get in,

and he managed it,

was something like,

Smegbuck.

Oh, no.

Yeah.

He managed to get it in.

I don't know how,

but he managed to get it in.

No, I think that was a perfect word

to have that bet on,

is tricholodyne.

Yeah, I think so, too.

And good luck if we can...

I think we've got to make it

the title of the show.

Can you look up the pronunciation,

Leo?

Oh, yeah.

We've got to figure it out

because I can't do it as the title.

No, you can't.

How do you spell it?

Tricholodyne?

Oh, I can't even...

Oh, God, it's playing an ad

for me to listen to the pronunciation.

I can get the sound

out of this thing here.

How is the ad...

Here it is.

Tricholodyne.

The tricholodynization

of twig.

The tricholody...

Tricholodyne.

The tricholodyne penny.

Now, that's British.

Can you switch to American?

The whole flapper

that's the hummingbirds?

You know, it's funny.

The only...

As you said,

the only evidence for this word

is up to now

is from the

proceedings of the Zoological.

Where did it come from?

I want to know.

Is it a word that Katie put in there

or did her editor put it in?

Oh, but she stuck it in.

That's the kind of detail.

You would pride yourself

on getting that into a story, right, Paris?

It merely...

I mean, yes,

but also it's the sort of thing

that if you put it in,

your editor would be like,

what the heck is this?

She had to take it out.

The editor was the one

who said,

who had the bet?

Yeah, the bet sounds like

the best theory.

It's got to be.

It doesn't even really...

Give it a sentence.

Where is it in context again?

Yeah.

She says the mint

has a trocheladine...

Let me find it again.

I think she was using it

as a metaphor for speed, right?

How fast they did something.

Yeah, how quickly

the mint cranks...

Trocheladine vigor.

Yeah, trocheladine vinegar.

Do you know Katie Weaver?

Do you know her?

I mean, no.

I think I've met her at...

I think you need to write her a note.

...an event or something.

Once or twice.

I think we need to invite her

on the show

because if she does that kind of...

Well, look over my life.

What else does she do?

I mean, she's a phenomenal journalist.

She writes about

the most interesting thing.

She reminds me of you.

I mean, this is the kind of thing

you would do, right?

A deep dive into something

completely obscure.

Coinstar is practically

the sole medium

by which the pennies

churned out with trocheladine vigor

by the mint

migrate around the United States.

Hummingbird-like vigor.

Yeah, I guess that fits.

All right.

We got to have some news.

I get...

This is the time.

The point in the show...

Our fun is over.

We have to get back to the news.

Fun is over.

Paris and Jeff,

you must come up with

a better story than that.

Good luck...

Oh!

...when we return.

But first,

a word from our sponsor

this episode of

This Week in Google

brought to you by

Experts Exchange.

You see,

you can see why you want to see

this.

You can see why you want to see

what's going on in the world.

You want somewhere you can go

where you can talk to an expert

and ask them a question

and get a good answer,

not an AI-driven,

made-up hallucination,

but a real answer.

When it comes to tech,

if you're in tech,

you need Experts Exchange.

Join a network of trustworthy

and talented tech professionals.

By the way,

don't just ask questions.

You can answer questions, too.

Get industry insights

and advice from people

who are actually using

the products in your stack

instead of paying for

expensive enterprise-level

tech services.

or doing a Google search.

And that's what most people

do these days, right?

If you have a tech question,

you do a Google search,

and the results

are uniformly awful.

I just saw a study

that said something like

57% of the Internet

is AI-generated.

So your chance of getting

a good answer is terrible.

But when you go to

Experts Exchange,

you're getting a real answer,

a good answer from a real expert.

As the tech community

for people tired

of the AI sellout,

Experts Exchange is ready

to help you.

to help carry the fight

for the future

of human intelligence.

Experts Exchange

gives you access

to professionals

in over 400 different fields.

I'm talking coding,

Microsoft Azure,

DevOps, AWS,

whatever area of technology

you're interested in,

you need help with.

Unlike other places,

there are no dumb questions.

There's no snark.

Duplicate questions

are encouraged.

You've gone to the site

where they say,

oh, no, we've already

answered this.

Cancel.

Not Experts Exchange.

Their contributors

are tech junkies

who love graciously

answering all questions.

One member said,

I never had chat GPT stop

and ask me a question before.

That happens on EE all the time.

Experts Exchange is proudly

committed to fostering

a community where

human collaboration

is fundamental.

Their expert directory

is full of experts

to help you find

what you need,

including some of our listeners

like Rodney Barnhart,

VMware vExpert

and a SecurityNow listener.

Edward Van Beek,

Bill Yon,

who is a Microsoft MVP

and well-known ethical hacker,

Cisco design professionals,

executive IT directors.

I can go on and on and on.

And here's the other thing

I love about Experts Exchange.

Other platforms

betray their contributors.

You see it in the news

all the time

by selling the content,

your content

that you put there

to train AI models.

At Experts Exchange,

your privacy is not for sale.

They stand against

the betrayal of contributors

worldwide.

Experts Exchange

has never

and will never

sell your data,

your content,

your likeness.

They block

and strictly prohibit

AI companies

from scraping content

from their site

to train their LLMs.

And the moderators

at Experts Exchange

strictly forbid

the direct use

of LLM content

in their threads.

You're getting real answers

from real humans.

You know,

when people are

on Experts Exchange,

they love it.

They love answering questions

because the real reward

for being an expert

is paying it forward,

passing your knowledge

on to help someone in need.

They get karma points.

Sometimes they get

extended education points.

Experts deserve a place

where they can confidently

share their knowledge

without worrying about

a corporation stealing it

to increase shareholder value.

And humanity deserves

a safe place

where they get answers

safe and away from AI.

Join Experts Exchange today.

They're so confident

you'll love it.

They're doing something

unheard of.

Three months free,

no credit card needed

because they know

you're going to,

you're going to love it

and you're going to want

to stick around

and you're going to participate.

It is a great experience,

a great community.

90 days free,

no credit card required.

Go to e-e.com

slash twit to learn more.

Yeah, it's a three letter dot com.

That's how long

they've been around.

e-e.com slash twit.

Experts Exchange.

Great people,

great answers

and a place everybody needs

free from AI hallucinations.

Experts Exchange.

Thank you, Experts Exchange.

For supporting

this week in Google

where we too are humans

and and do not

do not truck

with AI

intelligences

in any way

except for you

on the beach.

I love it.

I love them.

I want them.

They can scrape my data

like crazy.

Would you be?

Would you be mad

because it is actually

your content, too?

Would you be mad if

we sold all of all

of our shows,

all 10,000,

10,000 shows

to open AI for

for scraping?

I don't have.

It's not my decision.

Yeah, I want to be.

I don't have any conversation

with does he

with the information

sell your writing

is never

in a million years.

Yeah, Jessica

has been

our founder

and editor-in-chief

and CEO has been

very adamant

about that

for the fact that

all of these media

companies that are making

striking big deals

with open AI.

They're making the same mistake

that media companies

did five years ago

when they did the same thing

with meta.

Yeah, they really

that was a mistake

with meta, wasn't it?

Why would it be any different

with open AI?

Yeah.

I mean, I'm sure

we've already been scraped.

Anthony Nielsen says

we're on YouTube.

Yeah, that's true.

I don't.

Yeah, I want.

Look, I've said it before.

I think AIs deserve

the best information.

I want I want it

that if somebody goes

to chat TPT

and they ask about Gutenberg,

we come up.

Exactly.

Or pennies.

Pennies?

Yeah.

Well, a podcaster once said.

All right.

Paris, what story

did you pick?

I picked this story

from the San Francisco Chronicle

that found out basically

I'll read the top.

A Canadian tourist

was visiting Oakland recently

when he had to talk

someone out of taking

his Tesla from the hotel

parking lot.

This was no thief.

It was the Oakland

Police Department.

Turns out the Tesla

may have witnessed a homicide.

The article is about how

Tesla's sentry mode,

which is a security feature

that uses the car's cameras

to kind of record

its surroundings

when it's parked

is increasingly being used

by police as evidence

in criminal investigations.

And this is I mean,

it really reminded me of.

What was happening

with like ring doorbell cameras,

except for it seems

like the police are don't

have to get a warrant for this,

which is particularly

concerning, in my opinion.

I just furthermore,

they take your car.

They don't just get the video.

They have to take your car.

Yeah.

And I mean, I don't know.

I feel like I shouldn't.

Have to be.

I shouldn't.

I'm not consenting to being

recorded every time I'm

walking by a Tesla.

You're in public.

Well, I mean, yeah, I know,

but I just don't like it.

No, you can.

I don't like it.

You're oh, you're being recorded

on on cameras on every street.

They're all over.

I mean, yes, I know.

I'm just saying I don't think

you're being recorded

on the camera now.

Really?

Oh, my God, guys, I've got to go.

I didn't want to the Chronicle.

Usually when they ask for a video,

they get the owner's consent

to download it

so they don't have to serve a warrant

and they usually don't have to tow it.

But if they can't locate the owner

and they need the video

and they need it urgently,

they'll take the car. But.

The Sergeant Ben Terrio,

president of the Richmond

Police Officers Association,

was interviewed for this article,

said it is the most drastic

thing you could do.

But you know what?

They're investigating,

you know, a major penny theft

and they need that video.

You got to get a court order

to do that.

Just to say, I mean,

I think that's kind of ridiculous

if I was a Tesla owner,

which I won't be,

but I would think it's ridiculous

that my car

suddenly is a witness

to any potential crimes around

and can be taken from me

if the police need to search

through the video footage.

That's a bit.

Well, what's freakier is that

how do they know that your car

was at the scene?

Well, here's what kind of data

that is. Here's the story.

When officers arrived

at the parking lot

of the La Quinta Inn

near the Oakland Airport,

they shortly after midnight,

they found a man in an RV

suffering from gunshot

and stab wounds.

Later, he died.

They also noticed a gray test.

La parked in the stall

opposite the RV

in the search warrant

affidavit obtained

by the Chronicle.

The officer said,

I know that the Tesla vehicles

contain external surveillance cameras.

They do in order to protect

their drivers from theft

or liability in accidents.

Based on this information,

I this is the warrant.

I respectfully request

that a warrant authorized

to seize this vehicle

so that the surveillance footage

may be searched.

The judge approved it.

I think if you get a warrant,

a judge

approves it.

OK, you know,

I hope he gets the car back.

What would be freakier

is if they if they

knew who all own Teslas

and saw which Tesla was near

an event through your cell records

and then subpoenaed your test

that you were there.

Now, in this case,

there's a happy ending.

The Canadian tourist showed up

as they as his car

was being loaded into the tow truck.

He intervened

and volunteered the video.

So the police released his vehicle.

But I feel like that's

kind of coercive.

If you see your car,

you're walking over

and they're like, yeah, sorry,

we're going to tow your car

unless you let us look

at this video voluntarily.

Of course, someone's going to be like,

yeah, look at the video.

I feel like there are greater

privacy implications with this.

I think God knows

what the person was doing

at the La Quinta

by the Oakland airport.

Yeah, you don't want to be there.

I can tell you there.

Honestly.

A lot of cars have cameras nowadays.

In fact, I would imagine

in the future, most cars,

right?

Cameras on the back.

They have to.

Yeah, but even newer cars

often had front facing cam.

Mine does.

I mean, doesn't this concern you guys?

Maybe I'm being the old person here,

but I just don't like the idea

that everything in life

is now going to be recorded.

It already is, my friend.

I know.

But that doesn't mean that

I have to feel good about it.

No, I get I creeped out.

Here we are in this little town

of Petaluma

and every street

like the Butterfest,

home of the Butterfest festival.

Every streetlight has.

A camera on it

all the way down the street.

You see camera, camera, camera.

What are they?

What are they looking for?

People who are the way

they want to send you a ticket.

Like that's that's why it's

it's red light cameras,

but these aren't just red light cameras.

They're point

pointing in other directions.

I feel like they just took it.

Probably.

You know what really happened?

Some company

went to the Petaluma City Council,

you know,

and said,

you want to build a monorail?

No. Okay.

How about putting cameras

on all the lights?

Okay.

I mean,

if we pay you a budget,

probably right.

That's part of the police budget.

Sure.

Absolutely.

And they get a lot of money.

Okay.

What else?

That was a good one.

I liked it, Paris.

I'm going to propose one

that Paris and I both put in.

I didn't notice this until just now.

Line 69.

Oh, I know.

NaNoWriMo.

Now this is National Novel Writers Month

or National November.

National Novel Writing Month,

I believe.

It's November, though.

And it's November.

Do you do this?

By the way, it feels like you don't.

But I there were times

I thought about participating it

when I was like in grade school.

I think this is going to work for us.

Does it every does it every year?

I think basically what this is, is it is a

I guess now there's a nonprofit

organization associated,

but it's a kind of community event

of people who are interested in writing

where the.

The gist of it is writing a novel is hard,

but one of the hardest things about it

is sitting down, doing the work,

writing something every single day.

The goal is to write a novel in one month.

I think the

they have a specific number they target.

It's like 50,000 words.

You're supposed to write

in the Gutenberg parenthesis, Jeff.

Hundred thousand.

So can you imagine writing that in two months

or in a month or one month? No.

Well, it's 50,000.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Times.

Yeah, too. Oh, I see.

Maggie's probably is 10,000

because a lot of pictures.

How about the web?

We we've the new one that's coming out.

That's that's probably around 50.

That's more like 70.

I mean, so the thing that I think

is important to know about this

to give context is a lot of it is about.

Community like it is about building a community

and teaching people who want to write a novel,

how to build the muscle of writing every single day.

And supporting the organization

and supporting each other.

It is not about making the best possible novel.

No, no.

In your single month.

So it is largely an

event of endurance.

It is the muscles built out of the news.

Peg in the story.

The news peg is that NaNoWriMo recently

gotten a lot of hot water

because they put out new guidelines

saying that they

believe that

new guidelines supporting AI use in NaNoWriMo.

Specifically, the thing that got them in trouble

is they have kind of a whole section of their website

where they say that criticism of using AI

kind of writing generation tools in NaNoWriMo

is ableist and classist because in their words, it

does not take into account

that people out there with disabilities

might not be able to write at the same.

Speed as, you know, non-disabled people.

That's fair.

But even more than that,

it's just a club to get together to write.

If you want to use AI to jog your writing hell,

if you want to write 50,000 words with an AI, who cares?

So I argued the competition.

You're not saying, well, it is a competition.

It is specifically I agree with you, but it's a competition.

It's a personal competition in a sense.

It is about trying.

To write a lot in a short period of time, whether it's good or not.

And so people online got very upset because they.

I think part and I kind of agree with this angle.

I don't think that it's cheating.

I just think that it's not particularly relevant to this example.

Sure, if you want people want to use going in writing tools, go for it.

But it seems a little strange for the organization itself to be advocating

for the.

Use of AI tools to generate writing in a task that is all about

should simply just generating words on page.

Should we have to do it with a pen on paper?

Well, exactly, exactly. It's a tool.

Let me defend that.

All right. Whatever you say it. Nano.

Rhyme. Oh, I can't stand the name.

I'm going to do, by the way, this next month, I'm going to do nano.

Rhyme November.

I'm going to grow a mustache while I roll.

That's really smart. Yes. Yeah.

So when you.

Maybe even better.

No, not nano.

Rhyme November.

Stop. Never mind.

Stop. Forget I said it.

So when and when Chachi PD came out, I argued that it was a way

to potentially expand literacy.

People who are scared of writing could use this to help them write.

Now, then in my executive program, one of the students who runs a site

for First Nations in Canada and another who runs a site for imprisoned people

said, Whoa, there, white man,

you're suggesting to homogenize.

The language of all kinds of people to the hegemony of all publishing

that came before.

And I said, Oh, you're right, you're right.

But still, if you're in charge of the machine and what it turns out,

and if you're intimidated because maybe English is your second language

or maybe you have dyslexia or maybe you just are afraid of writing.

If the idea is to get people over a hump and help them write,

then whatever gets you there, I think should be seen as a fine and good thing.

And so I side with them.

The Atlantic, of course, came out, not surprisingly,

with a snobby piece, because that's what they do.

So an A.I. is coming for amateur novelists.

That's fine, you know, because the point of this, too,

is that you've got the writing establishment,

the publishing establishment, saying this is all bullshit.

Nobody can write. He's awful. It's all crap.

You've got to suffer for your art.

And and rather than saying people are joining in to write

what they feel and think and say, I think that's a good thing.

What are we going there? I

I don't think it's entirely about suffering for your art.

Let me let me read something.

An artist, Sylvia Moreno Garcia, posted on Twitter this week.

I did the NaNoWriMo thing 15 some years ago.

She writes, the main impetus and benefit of it was socialization.

You would meet people online and in person, chat about books,

have a buddy writing in parallel, like joining a marathon.

In other words, a buddy is actually go ahead.

In other words, the point is not about output, but experience.

This is what these companies don't understand.

If I joined.

A marathon at the office, it wasn't because I really thought I'd win first place.

It's because my colleagues to participate, we train together, have something to do,

get together, celebratory dinner.

I think that the core part of this, that it's the not the output.

It's the experience is what?

That's for this.

No, I'm saying that for it's a strange thing for an organization

that their whole ethos is

you're trying to get to 50,000 words.

It's totally fine.

If you.

Use AI to do that, I think it's a strange little pivot from them

because part of the goal is 50,000 words.

Or is the goal getting over the hump and trying to feel like you could write?

Yes, but if you're not writing, how are you trying to feel if you can write?

If you just type something into chat GPT and I could say, write 50,000 words for me right now.

Would that count as me completing NaNoWriMo?

Technically, if you wanted to, but I mean, if you if you if you got inspiration,

if I think that there's a another aspect of this, which is the way that

NaNoWriMo kind of couched

this was about how it is classist or ableist to

dismiss these tools because they are essential

for people with disabilities to be able to participate in writing.

And a lot of disability advocates and disabled people online took offense to this

because I think it's frankly offensive to say that the only way that disabled people

can participate in communal writing experiences is through AI tools

that generate work.

I don't think they're saying it's the only way, but I think it's saying it's one thing.

And it goes to let's go to classes, too,

that you get the issue of people who believe they're not speaking classic English.

And they're seen as lower class as a result.

But I'd rather have those people's voices heard.

I agree.

But what if that's not filtered through chat?

I mean, I think that it's one thing I think from a personal individual perspective,

anyone can do whatever they want if someone wants to use chat GPT

and say it's for NaNoWriMo.

Sure.

Good for them.

I think it's a little strange when you as an institution come out with a what was obviously

going to be a big declaration.

This is a really hot button topic in this community because people are worried about

organizations like NaNoWriMo selling their work to a AI company as content.

I think that it was a bad move for them to do.

I can see how that would be done.

Patrick, I would suggest that it is not writing, Jeff.

I would suggest that saying, give me 50,000 words.

Not 50,000.

No, I'm not saying about doing the whole thing.

I would suggest that that's not writing, though, because that's more curation.

You're seeing the outputs of the AI and then you're picking stuff.

That's not writing.

That's curating.

All creation is curation at some level.

Well, that's that's Cory Doctorow's argument.

That's the copyright argument.

A. B. I'm not suggesting that you use it to turn 50,000 words.

Yeah, then what's the point?

But I am saying that if you use it to help for inspiration, to improve it, to give you

ideas that would be forbidden in the ethos of some of these people.

And I'm saying those could be perfectly legitimate ways to help you get over that hump, which

is supposed to be the idea of this rules, by the way, in this thing.

And well, the RIMO, like there are rules like, yeah, kind of.

I think you like upload to the website and whatnot.

I mean, rules like how you write.

Don't use AI was an implied rule, I guess, because they say it's okay.

Interestingly, interestingly, according to Patrick Delahanty, who did do NaNoWriMo

twice in a couple of years back, he says that all of this started after NaNoWriMo accepted

an AI company as a sponsor.

Yes.

I was just about to say that one of the sponsors this year is ProWritingAid.

And if you go to their website, they describe it as providing actionable advice to improve

your writing.

So one example they give is you may have written the sentence.

The ocean was bathed in a serene atmosphere as the golden sunset painted a tranquil scene.

And you could ask ProWritingAid to expand that.

And then it gives you this.

As the sun began to set, its golden rays spread a peaceful ambiance that enveloped the entire

ocean.

It's all crack.

With its golden hues, the setting sun created a sense of tranquility that washed over the

vast expanse.

I think this is fine.

But I mean, this is one step past using Grammarly.

Are you allowed to use Grammarly when you're writing?

I mean.

I think that certain aspects of it, yes.

I think that if you're using it to.

I think in this case, if you're using ProWritingAid or Grammarly to construct whole sentences

for you, they're more of a co-author.

I can see if this was a competition and there was a prize.

But the whole point of this is to write, to get you to write however you want to write.

I feel like that's what makes it even worse, though.

It'd be one thing if there was a competition and there was a prize and people would say

it's unfair.

The only person that's being cheated are the people who are using these tools.

Well, let yourself.

Well, then they get to choose that.

Yeah, they get to get some over the hair business if I want to cheat myself.

I mean, I agree.

I think from an individual perspective, yeah.

Go for it.

Do whatever.

I think from an institutional perspective, it's a strange hill to die on.

Maybe I like to see three different ways to cast a sentence because it helps me think

about how.

And then I'm not going to use any of those three, but I'm going to rewrite my sentence

in a way that's more interesting.

See what Nano, whatever, does is that writers.

We think we're so special as writers, and so we pull the ladder up after us and say,

no, no writing is hard.

And then what the ethos behind I use ethos three times.

Sorry, what the moral behind, I think, where this started was, I think, everybody can write

more often.

Please say Zeitgeist a lot.

No, I agree with you.

Go ahead.

I'm sorry to interrupt with my stupid.

It was an AI made me do it.

I think it's a Tempest in a teapot.

Honestly, that's what's funny about it.

Yeah.

And in Paris, I think I can see why I can see the slack where one person raises the

woke idea.

Well, what about people who are disabled and other people don't?

That's a reasonable.

So they say, okay, and I bet there wasn't a big discussion.

And you're training to run a marathon and you happen to only have one leg and you have

a artificial leg or maybe even artificial leg with springs that help improve your running.

Should you not be allowed to run the marathon?

Maybe you shouldn't be able to compete in the same category as able runners, but you

should be allowed to run the marathon.

That's all we're saying.

It's if somebody has a artificial leg, they can still run marathons.

Right.

What is that?

Right.

And okay.

It's fine.

If there were a competition in like the best 50,000 words or something like that, then

I can understand.

But you're not saying that.

Who cares?

Yeah.

Who cares?

Nobody reads the 50,000 words.

Yeah.

Who reads all this?

They just throw them out.

I mean, there are other writers.

I think that part of what ended up being a problem here is not like any decision they

made because frankly, the decision they made is we're not endorsing or endorsing use of

AI writing tools.

It is a question of framing.

Yes.

It is.

I mean, let me read the part on classes.

They lost some people.

They lost quite a few board members because of this.

Yeah.

I mean, not all writers have the financial ability to hire humans to help them at certain

phases of their writing.

For some writers, the decision to use AI is a practical, not an ideological one.

The financial ability to engage a human for feedback and review assumes a level of privilege

that not all community members possess.

And I think that's fair.

That's a fair point.

But I think it is also a bit of a myopic.

Like it is, if we want to talk about classism in AI, it is a much more complicated topic

than three sentences approaching it from one side of the angle.

Oh, yeah.

These poor NaNoWriMo people are so depressed now, they say, why do we even start this thing?

I think that part of the outrage is also fueled by fears that, because part of, I believe,

how the NaNoWriMo website works is you use their system to write your novel.

And people are worried that the text of their work could be used by this.

AI paranoia going on here.

AI is going to replace us.

AI is evil.

AI is being trained on our NaNoWriMo novels.

You can't possibly do anything good with AI.

It's trained.

It's stealing from us.

There's a lot of that going on.

There's definitely, we're starting to polarize into pro and anti-AI groups, aren't we?

We're starting to.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

I don't know if that's the right thing to do with AI.

Because, you know, they're just going to divide and conquer.

You know, the new VWs will have ChatGPT built in.

Why?

Volkswagen's in-car AI will use ChatGPT and a multitude of cloud-based models to answer

drivers' questions.

No.

When was the first CES in Las Vegas and how many people visited?

Pay attention to the road.

Don't be asking stupid questions while you're driving.

Yeah.

Google system will not answer that kind of question now when you're driving.

It will not answer an informational question.

How much more would you pay for Amazon Echo?

Now we know that they're apparently going to use Anthropix Cloud for their remarkable

Alexa.

It's remarkable.

Nobody used it before.

That was the problem.

But now, maybe they will.

Yes.

That's what's remarkable.

Amazon's revamped Echo for release in October.

Five to ten dollars a month for what they're calling the remarkable A-word.

I don't know if I can say the A-word or not.

If I go Alexa.

Alexa.

Alexa button.

Is that trigger?

Anybody or just did your dump button?

Yeah.

Just I have a button.

A dump button.

You'll still be able to get the stupid Alexa.

If all you want is recipes and timing and stuff like that.

So did the Atlantic say, that's fine, it's okay for amateur novelists, we don't care.

They kind of say let them destroy because they're really just amateurs.

They're not writers like us.

That's not what you expect.

that's hysterical just let the robot you know this whole thing did make me uh go back and

look into when i was a kid i was really into fan fiction i wrote a bunch of fan fiction so i went

to go look at my account i at age 13 wrote 102 000 word fan fiction with what time in like six

months you weren't working the world wants to know is what absolutely i mean i'm not giving

any more details it was about an anime is all i'll say okay all right all right sexy

it was sexy in the 13 year old way and i think the characters kissed a couple times and i remember

having to go and read other fan fiction where people kiss to make sure that i wrote i did a

lot of research on kissing if you can believe oh my god is that cute uh so you up there i have i

have my i have the one novel i ever wrote you wrote a novel

the one you wrote in berlin that was bad yes thank god no one published it i'm just delighted

and so if i had done that in public i'd be humiliated to this day somebody could find it

that's why i can't say any anthony nielsen yeah i know the posing a club twit exclusive

a radio play with paris's fanfic you guys would have to pay me a lot of money to do that

come on paris oh come on so much fun bring it to lunch with leo and me

yeah

we'll do a reading we'll do a table read yeah i'll run i'll jump in front of a train

i've always you have a novel it's on it's in digital form or is it in print

zero it's in digital form it's on the website so somebody can find it had hundreds of reviews

it was you know you know people still know what to do if you're listening russia listen if if you

guys can find what i'm talking about i'll be very impressed i've not given you many details

because

i don't think you'll be able to do it you just issued a challenge to our audience

it's obviously it's not over her real name yeah now so i imagine there's more than one 13 year

old anime fan fiction that's over a hundred thousand words yeah i'm guessing there's quite

a lot yeah and it's gonna be a tough one good luck can you post an excerpt no because then

you'll find it oh one character's name can we get rid of it yeah i'm sorry no one's gonna get

it oh it's it's one character's name they can get rid of it okay a neces furrier i get a call from

don't go with that it can't be done in the Molecule but we're still in the Molecule because i made that up

check that bill drill bell bell bell bell bell bell bell scammer性 permissions that are throwing in with our

name. Come on, just one. No. She's not going to give us any information. Nope. The challenge has

been issued. Hey, Prime members, are you tired of ads interfering with your favorite podcasts?

Good news. With Amazon Music, you have access to the largest catalog of ad-free top podcasts

included with your Prime membership. To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free

or go to amazon.com slash ad-free podcasts. That's amazon.com slash ad-free podcasts to

catch up on the latest episodes without the ads. Nearly half of Americans feel they've lost time

due to poor mental health. For those diagnosed with anxiety and depression, that number is nearly

80%. The Genesight test could help. Genesight is a genetic test that analyzes how you respond

to medications to treat depression and other mental health conditions. Test results may

inform your clinician's treatment plan to help reduce medication trial and error. Take the next

step on your mental wellness journey. Visit genesight.com or ask your clinician about Genesight

today. You are watching This Week in Google with fanfic writer Paris Martineau and novelist,

wishful novelist, Jeff Jarvis. I always wanted to write a novel, but I think because of my

aphantasia, this is my excuse, I can't. Because you can't see an apple.

Because I can't, I can't see an apple. I can't visualize what I'm, you know, I can't put it down

on paper. When you, you guys are writers, well, when you do fiction anyway, do you, can you see

what you're, then she approached his turbid lips with chocolate. She was only 13, Leo, you're getting

edgy here. Do you see the apple? I don't recall because that was the probably the last time I

wrote fiction, honestly. But yeah.

I do. I do receive the apple when I'm writing.

Leo, when you hear the story of William Tell, do you envision an apple?

No, it's just all fuzzy. So I asked Daniel.

You still can't picture your wife's face, right?

No, I can't see my kid's face.

Do you know what color their eyes are?

Oh, I know that. I can, but that's the thing. I know abstract details. I could describe their

face, but I, this is why I always thought police sketch artists, I don't understand it because

how do they know what the face?

Looked like that. You could describe it to them. And what I didn't understand is people see the

face in their head that, and they're describing it to the sketch artist. I don't, all I have is

abstract knowledge about the face. I had a nose. What kind of nose? I don't know. Who knows? Who

knows if, if the nose were big and red, would you, I might remember that as a fact, but I wouldn't

see a big red nose. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you're thinking about the wafer delivery guy,

who, um, you saw briefly when he were going downstairs to get coffee before the show,

any details you remember about them?

No short ground blob. That's it.

You'll be very useful. If a crime ever happens, not good for writing a novel, a brown blob.

Yeah. His car will be better than he is moistened with anticipation.

I once asked Daniel Suarez, accomplished publisher, published bestselling author. I, I said, I can't

see things. Do I, did you, do you see things as your enemy said? Yeah. What the hell are you

talking about, dude? Weird. I lost a button. Don't mock my, uh, I'm not trying to get

behind the mic. Honestly. That's yeah. I'm trying to, somebody has Poco son. He's talking about it

in the chat room. Wow. Uh, AI's impact on elections is being overblown says the MIT technology review,

Felix M. Simon, Keegan McBride, and, uh,

Sasha Altae writing. So you wrote a pricey of this on your LinkedIn. Yeah. But you can also,

the, the, the articles not long. Yeah. Um, and importantly, this is, this is three people I

respect. Well, two, one I know and respect Felix Simon, um, is now the head of research for the,

uh, Reuters Institute for the study of journalism at Oxford. Uh, Keegan McBride is in the, uh,

Oxford internet Institute and Sasha Altae is university of Zurich. And it's, I found this

really good piece because it,

it, it, it, it, a lot higher level says that a lot of panic about information goes wrong. And they have a few very clear reasons. First mass persuasion is notoriously challenging plenty of communication theory about this, that the hypodermic view that you can say something to somebody, you're going to persuade everybody is BS. Second, for a piece of content to be influential, it has to reach its intended audience. And with the crush of content out there, that's all the harder. Third, emerging research challenges the idea that using AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI

AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI,

AI, AI, AI, AI,

AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI,

AI, AI, AI, AI, AI,

AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, I really want to know that

because that's for the next book.

Okay.

I really, really want to know that.

So I did have, I did have a thing about the loudspeaker in the Goodberg

parenthesis, but it was one of the things I cut out.

Who invented the first loudspeaker?

Johann Philip Rice installed an electric loudspeaker in his telephone in 1861.

I think that's a little earlier than the Nazis.

No, that's not the PA system.

the guy i'm talking about a pa system oh i see yeah because the loudspeaker was first used soon

after the turn of the century yeah yeah i was talking about amplification right uh here's the

history of the pa system stephen robert pearson of lancashire england is credited with

well anyway there's a lot of information here you could argue you could argue the worst thing

that was ever invented i'll put it differently was the amplifier yeah well because all you could

do before was speak to the people who could hear you given the acoustics that was the largest crowd

you could get to print expanded that but that required expense and effort with the amplifier

you could increase your voice beyond that and then begins the mass

anyway

sorry now i'm trying to find this yeah we're all doing our research now instead of doing a show so

if you just uh come back in about 20 minutes i might have an interesting anecdote for you

history of the loudspeaker uh ai may not steal many jobs after all it just may make workers

more efficient says the associated press we're gonna find either or stories like this going all

the time but i think it's worth it not to presume that it's going to get rid of jobs

but i think it's worth it not to presume that it's going to get rid of jobs

we have some advertisers who for instance use ai and customer service and

their experience has been it helps customer service be more effective the humans be more

effective by doing triage they can solve a lot of simple problems quickly so that the customer

service reps only have to talk to people who have more complicated problems and their evidence is

that both customers and the reps are happier because of it it only works if if

customer service is empowered to solve your problem exactly you have to think of it that way

it's not yes it's let me explain to you our policy and why we don't do that yeah i mean

phone trees don't make people happier that's for sure yeah uh let's see how oprah will screw

up the ai story you remember did we talk about the show we talk about this on this show or was

it i don't think so it's on twit so uh oprah winfrey is doing a special

about ai it'll be called the story of us later this month uh the reason we started talking about

it on twit is because one of the people on it will be marquez brownlee youtube star and tech

reviewer who and a major frisbee star yeah i saw that article as well marquez is on the

on a roll but i saw when i saw a picture of him with oprah i thought yeah i think marquez has

made it so this is the show it's going to be uh called

ai the story of us uh sam altman's going to be on it so is the dreaded tristan harris

uh it it's an interesting review i mean uh of ai and i guess oprah's plan is

to make it accessible so that everybody can understand it which i admire that but i don't

know i don't know if these are the people if these are the people watch ai in the future of

us september 12th

there's oprah done by ai no doubt sam altman will explain how ai works in layman's terms

should we watch a little dog in this we have to we do a live bill gates oh we should do a live

yeah i would love to do a mystery science theater 3000 yeah yeah mostly us spitting our coffee out

bill gates will lay out the ai revolution coming in science health and education

youtube creator and technologist marquez brownlee will walk rent win three win free

mind-blowing demonstrations see right there yeah that's exactly how mainstream media treats this

stuff mind-blowing demonstrations of ai's capabilities tristan harris and aza raskin

co-founders of center for mainstream technology walk win three through the emerging risks

sounding the alarm moral entrepreneurs fbi director christopher ray reveals the terrifying

ways criminals and foreign adversaries are using ai moral panic pulitzer prize-winning author

marilyn robinson reflects i will reflect on ai's threat to human values and the ways in which

humans might resist the convenience of ai ai and the future of us and oprah winfrey special

when does it air september 12th 8 p.m that's a thursday on abc and the next day it'll be on hulu

if we were both not on vacation yeah well the problem is leo would have to watch it on the

west coast not to watch on the east coast because

i'll be on a boat it'll be in a boat okay i'll be in croatia um do you there's a lot of potential

there's a lot of need for something that can explain ai to yeah just oprah winfrey's not who

i would think i don't think this is hard to do it it also feels like it's a little bit too much

let's get everybody in here and that's what she's not gonna be any clearer i don't know

i mean i'll reserve my judgment till i see it but i

my current

thought reading the list of people scheduled to speak is that it will be a lot of hype

oprah's upcoming ai television special sparks outrage among tech critics this is from

benji edwards at ars technica ai opponents say gates altman and others will guide oprah through

an ai sales pitch if it was really that good if it was really that good the ai would do the whole

show i can't really yeah um sure is nice of oprah to host this extended sales pitch for the

generative ai industry at a moment when its fortunes are flagging and the ai bubble is

threatening to burst it certainly will stimulate more investment won't it in ai companies

uh artist carla ortiz who is one of the plaintiffs suing ai the way the experts

who are not experts are presented as such

what a train wreck there's still plenty of time to get actual experts have a better discussion on

this yeah i mean tim nick gabrielle

might be good to have on yeah i feel like sam altman's the wrong person to say test

yeah we won't that's that's that's the yeah that's like the smegma of ai

oh if only the title for this show could be the smegma it's not going to be i know

i'm saying if only if only we lived in a world where that would be your friend ed

zitron you want to know what he said probably something like the smegma of ai i'm guessing

i think smegma is his favorite word

he says marquez brownlee should be absolutely ashamed of himself what a disgraceful thing

that is so ed yeah yeah you should be ashamed of yourself um i don't know if that's true i mean look

i used to go on uh regis and kelly and tell him about yeah but you'd explain things you didn't

well i did the same thing as he said here dev nol would explain things dev not hey she should

have dev nolan i would set him straight on a show head how much he got paid and ed would probably be

like oh all right all right all right all right all right all right all right all right all right

i don't just i didn't know i think ed would be like this is disgusting i don't think they're

going to pay him more than scale which is about a thousand bucks i don't i don't wait for a show

like this uh no marquez is definitely getting paid think they're not paying bill gates or sam

altman yeah no i think abc is going to treat this as a news special and they're going to pay you

scale not ten thousand dollars maybe they will money oprah money oprah oprah can afford it you

aren't going to take the money even just inherit well but they're there for the marketing for the

marketing yeah i would be disappointed if abc pays more than scale for this you shouldn't a news

organization should not pay scale scale is the union scale minimum which would be about a thousand

bucks i don't know what it is today but are you members you remember the union i was sag after

yeah actually i wonder if marquez is though there's no reason for him to be in the union why

would he be yeah

he doesn't need to be

i'm not i'm not in the union anymore i'm an abeyance or whatever so i don't have to pay

you want to show his uh frisbee video i've seen it this so many times i don't want to be part of

the marquez brownlee promotion engine all right all right all right i've got something else we

can talk about if we don't want to talk about the frisbee you go you go yes it's very important

i i'll tell you what while you talk about that i will show marcus brownlee on nbc we have to

the internet's

favorite tech reviewer is also an elite ultimate frisbee player

he is though he's really good i mean it was impressive look at this watch this catch look

at that watch this catch he leaps into the air thousands of feet above the others

snags the frisbee can you beat that anecdotally ultimate frisbee players in new york city are

some of the worst most annoying people i've ever met they're bros

people they're like they're bros but in like a crunchy way that's kind of annoying you know

they're bros with man buns and yeah like what's the deal with all the bead bracelets the things

the strings and all that i don't like what is that what's the deal with all that people just

i don't know i can't wear it because it irritates my arm hairs so i don't i i feel frustration

whenever i see a bunch of bracelets pretty much life irritates my arm hairs i don't i don't none

of it

okay so my uh thing is very important the winners of michigan's 2024 i voted sticker

contests have been revealed and i frankly want all of them even though i don't live in michigan

look at these these one yes so traditionally when you go to the polls you get a nice red white and

blue american flag sticker that says i voted click the first one which was not an elementary

schooler not in michigan how great is that imagine if you go to your polling booth and you get a

werewolf pulling off a ripped shirt in front of an american flag that's wild that was by jane

highness in gross point michigan of brownlee middle school it's voting the growth face

it is this has become a thing now that's by an adult i believe um probably a childless cat lady

since it is in fact a cat in the hat yes if you go to the webs this one just has the bigger ones

i think that one's cute it's a fish this is my favorite one

another elementary school i voted gabby warner in rock honestly that's the one i'd wear of all of

those that's the one i'd wear if you click the uh link below this in the rundown it brings you to

the full page with um all of them or might have that farther on the twitter thread i like there's

one that says i'm cool i voted which is nice also so are all of these going to be made into stickers

um so i believe what happens is they will all be available for election clerks to order for the

election so election clerks can choose they get to vote to get you know um but these are the

winners goggles that's good yeah that's good that's by a high schooler yeah this is also by a

high schooler that's pretty i kind of like that yeah oh i like this one that seems very i think

that's a michigan gander thing oh yeah oh oh i voted oh i voted okay okay i like it

yeah i don't know i just thought it was fun credit to the winning artists um

god that wasn't even her pick that was a generous gift to the show that was a gift to the show you

guys can get that one free of charge and you can go to the michigan department of state if you if

you'd like to see all of them and you can order them well maybe you can't you have to be an

election clerk yeah if you're an election do you think they'll have a slate of unofficial election

clerks ordering

they better order the jane highness one the werewolf one is fantastic i don't know i don't

it's ridiculous and it's ridiculous it's absurd it doesn't fit the election theme whatsoever

a middle school girl made it and america made it an official election sticker and i think that's

what this country is all about america made it an official america voted and that werewolf did too

and we've got to respect that they were in like in uh categories she was in the elementary and

middle school category there were also high school winners and then the general entry winners see

adults are too uptight yeah i agree with you you got to go to the younger the youngs for the really

good i'm cool gabby's my favorite yeah i like gabby's i'm gonna get gabby's i voted yay i like

the backwards e it's pretty good and voted yeah let's make let's make this let's let's

see if we can get these up and hello joe esposito you're the sticker guy and who put in dignation 2.0

i did so this is no i didn't know that it was returned our old friend kevin rose and alex albrecht

uh who did for many years you know dignation paris no oh it's a drunk guys talking about tech news

it's this show we don't have any

and now it's wine and they're going to are i think they're going to do one and i doubt do

you think they'll keep doing it for a while 10 000 views 49 000 subscribers it's like they never

left it says back it looks like maybe it's a few years later yes it's kind of it's kind of a little

bit i'm not gonna i mean i'm not gonna judge i'm a little older too and they're a little older and

they're maybe a little richer too maybe just a little bit so yeah it's a nice looking home that

hat i can't afford that hat yeah you probably can't literally though kevin was on the show

kevin rose is uh one of the original twit cast members he was on the show a few months ago and

he's wearing a kind of a nice uh sweater merino wool i said oh that's nice how much is that four

thousand dollars okay thank you um android

oh changelog we'll do the great after this word the google changelog that's the word

android has five five count of five new features out today count along with me folks

talkback now runs on gemini screen reader tool designed for blind and low vision users

uh i don't know do you really want an ai model telling you what's on that

screen it'll power the audio description for images yeah chrome will read out loud to you now

using text to speech and it's and it's pretty good circle to search you know about circle to

search well now you can search for music use your device's microphone to analyze music

it's only rolling out right now to the samsung s24 devices

oh no more devices are coming

you can long press your device's navigation bar tap the music icon to begin searching

it works for songs you hum or sing yourself as well as music playing from your phone or another

source one of the things i love about the pixel is it will it will tell me the soundtrack of my

life will actually keep track of all the songs i hear as i'm walking around and then give me a list

what is what's always recording it's always listening recording and you like that big word

it's it's just it's

shazam you know shazam it's just shazaming all the time let's creep it out paris she's gonna

don't like that on this yeah don't like really but how often you're like at a hair salon

getting your coif and they play a music song you go that i like that song all you do is look at

your phone and you'll tell you what the song is i mean i just look at my phone press one button

and then it tells me what the song is only this way you don't have to remember to press the button

always be shazamin

android earthquake alerts have been expanded to cover all u.s states as well as six territories

even if they don't have earthquakes when's the last earthquake you've had in brooklyn

oh we had one yeah yeah we had we had a one in the last year we had a big one yes i'd go to new

york city we have it at bryant park leave california and there's a massive earthquake

in new york yeah yeah when was that

earthquake was it this is about three months ago three months yeah i really miss it i had

headphones on it was in a grocery store and i didn't notice it at all but if you had a real

earthquake you would not miss it yeah no i don't we were in a restaurant which probably affected

the cat we didn't feel him but the cat was poor mikey a couple a couple years maybe it was a year

ago uh lisa and i were having dinner in a restaurant and all everybody's phone in the

restaurant went earthquake and nobody had felt it yet because they

get his early warning and then a few seconds later what did you do

dived under the table felt like an idiot because it wasn't a really big earthquake no did you really

no i did what everybody does go what the hell yeah you're trying to put it by the time i realized

there's an earthquake there was an earthquake then you see all the gum underneath the table

and it's really disgusting they do it's kind of cool because you do get an early warning it's not

like a long time but a few seconds might be enough to get somewhere safe

new google map feature for smart watches on where os does anybody have one of those

offline map access download the map on your phone and then you can go to google maps on your watch

and you'll see those offline thank you to lifehacker for those five new android features

because if somebody didn't write it up in an article i don't think i would have noticed to

be honest be perfectly honest yeah uh google says it's removing poor quality android apps

from the play store and it's removing poor quality android apps from the play store and it's removing

so this one's relevant to the discussion the other day about antitrust and the play stores

the app stores i mean this is what you want them to do this is value at us under the value yes

they add value they get rid of crap um they citing a desire to provide a stable response

of an engaging user experience on august 31st uh they removed apps with limited functionality

and content static apps without app specific functionalities that yeah it's just a picture

pdf files apps with a small amount of content that don't provide an engaging user experience

i voted uh single wallpaper apps google's also removing apps with broken functionality such

as apps that crash freeze force close or otherwise function abnormally

um some say well should should they be able to do that i think yes

i think that's that's probably okay in fact apple wouldn't let those apps through and certainly would

pull them out of the way and they wouldn't let those apps through and certainly would pull them

if they if they change dramatically so i think that's fair google clock is rolling out a new

timer starter widget widgets can really be fun and useful or they could take up a lot of screen

space for very little function what was the last time you installed a widget i haven't installed a

widget in years oh i have a widget yeah what's your one it's a carrot weather a weather app

that yells at you um but he also has a widget that's a widget that's a widget that's a widget

but he also is very powerful and lets you choose a bunch of data sources and i've got a widget on my

home screen that tells me weather stuff daily i also like it because having the widget on my home

screen means that i keep my daily streak of using carrot um which i've had since 2017 so are you is

it are you like a you get like a badge for that or something carrot just tracks stats in the back of

it and i just like looking at them like it tracks what's the highest temperature you've ever been in

or lowest oh that's good

and how many days you've used the app and things like that it knows too much paris it's been

tracking you everywhere it knows where you are it's true carrot will kill me eventually and i'm

really happy about that i'm minimalist on my android device my pixel it's just nothing no

no widgets at all except for the you know the basic time and weather one but on my apple

iphone i go crazy so this is that's audible there's carrot weather whoops

um you can show that's right i guess i have two widgets my calendar uh and this is just

suggestions for widgets and then here i have lisa's location and i have my car all good

it's all good uh here i have google news here i have pictures from my past ahoy matey

uh and then that's it that's all i got but that's a lot of widgets right

every page has a widget or two i love widgets anyway now you can have a timer widget

google has renamed tensorflow light to light rt

don't forget the last part of it tensorflow brand remains so they haven't they've removed it

just i just thought this was a really funny headline that makes no sense to me and i'm

i don't want to know i don't care light rt which is a terrible name light art meanwhile the main

tensorflow brand will not be affected i think this is they just want you to forget tensorflow

light exists and actually this is very good news youtube has debuted new parental controls aimed

at teens uh a new feature that would allow a parent to link their account to a teen's account

in order to spy on them no did i say that no it's a new feature that would allow a parent to link

their account in order to gain insight into the teen's activity or spy on them i mean this is

clearly uh a response to the variety of bills and lawsuits that it is seeing over online child

safety specifically targeting the age 13 to 18 demo wouldn't you hate this you're 13 you're

writing fanfic that involves anime lip lock and and your parents are getting alerted to your

channel activity the numbers are going to go up and down and you're going to be able to

see the numbers of uploads subscriptions and comments when i was 13 my dad seriously believed

that google chrome was a virus so it would have been rough for me your dad i remember printing

out stuff on the printer i mean like google chrome is a legitimate browser and he was like

wow does your dad now you're on a show called this week in google yeah no he loves it oh he

uses google chrome now whenever i tell him about that he's like oh i didn't do that

well i remember dad dad amnesia very important i didn't do that i tell my daughter that all the

time i didn't do that no i'm talking about i love chrome well that's the google change log

i hope you enjoyed it binga bonga binga bonga bonga there are so many other stories

uh but we as usual on this show i'm going to be talking about the google change log

there's so many things i want to talk about but we ended up spending half an hour on pennies

and it was a great half hour it was thank you what's the reaction going to be from

from our our fans out there will they like the penny well i think there will always be a vocal

minority that decides to complain about everything and they'll be like great show but they spent too

long talking about pennies this isn't week in pennies this week this week in google i think i

should do a show called this week in senior

then you'd be happy yeah i think what what paris wants is this week in amazing things you didn't

know i do i you know what let's make this the show that's the show from now on scooter x by

the way is is hurt that we did not include oh all of his many links all of his many links

sorry scooter x sorry scooter it's unfortunate but we don't just i ran out of time scoot oh we

ran out of time

yeah yeah like there's like there's a clock on this show you you think there's not a clock

hold the clock you said there's a clock look at that

there is a clock buddy i have a clock so ladies and gentlemen uh in one moment we're going to

take a little break when we come back we will have our picks of the week you're watching this

week in pennies

hey prime members are you tired of ads interfering with your favorite podcasts

good news with amazon music you have access to the largest catalog of ad free top podcasts

included with your prime membership to start listening download the amazon music app for free

or go to amazon.com slash ad free podcasts that's amazon.com slash ad free podcasts to

catch up on the latest episodes without the ads nearly half of americans feel they've lost time

due to poor mental health for those diagnosed with anxiety and depression that number is nearly

80 percent the gene site test could help gene site is a genetic test that analyzes how you respond to

medications to treat depression and other mental health conditions test results may inform your

clinician's treatment plan to help reduce medication trial and error take the next step

on your mental wellness journey visit genesite.com or ask your clinician about gene site today

this is that's right where there is one of the most important things in the world for us to be able to

where we put the inserted ad that is so offensive and annoying that you will want to join the club

seriously look i it wasn't my idea but uh i think it turns out this is a really great way to get

people in the club to it you listen to an awful ad and then you go i don't want to hear that anymore

and i say well for seven bucks a month you don't have to you don't even have to hear me telling you

join the club we take that out too twit.tv slash

club to it seven bucks a month ad free versions of all the shows more importantly you get to

join in on special events that we do in our club to a discord like the game

show that paris and i are going to do when she gets back and i get back

it's gonna be a lot of fun but he's gonna be in our squad our party right yes and by game show he

means playing a game yeah on a show may i make a suggestion as to the ads that you guys could use

to maybe one ad you could add an addition to the ad that you guys could use to the ad that you guys

could use to get people to just have the dial-up internet noise but like set at like significantly

higher than the podcast so people are a bit shocked it could be a good way to force them

into paying for club twin so i think i think to to to insert a loomy ad with the lady who

doesn't talk about butt cracks that'll get them to join so we turn this up really loud oh he's got it

um

i think that would annoy people

oh what's the is there is a noise going on we can't hear it leo no you're laughing at your

own joke but we're why aren't they hearing that i'm hearing it probably zoom settings

oh man he likes to reject uh playback audio did you not hear any of the audio i've been

playing back can you mimic it with your voice can you make the dial-up

join the club so you never have to hear that again

twit.tv slash club twit actually it's a lot of fun and we really appreciate the support

picks of the week let's start with paris martineau my pick of the week is a bit of a revisit quite a

few weeks ago i brought you the website one million check boxes it's a website with one

million checkboxes which has been hacked right somebody has well been messing with it part of

the thing is uh the creator of it wrote a really good blog post called the secret to the secret to

the secret inside one million checkboxes um and he goes through kind of his thinking in the site

how uh he was storing um the state of the different checkboxes they were in like bits and whatnot

a couple days after launching one million checkboxes he rewrote the back end in one go

he says this help his friend to keep up the load and for some reason he dumped an ascii encoding

of the raw bytes in his database he doesn't know

why he just did it and then the data he saw he was looking at it and it looked a little weird

it you know has um normal i guess raw bytes in the database and then in the middle of it

is a link to catgirls.win backslash omcb and his reaction to the this was what the f am i hacked

um he picked up the data and he's like i don't know what to do with it i don't know what to do with it

panicked there were urls in his database there were urls pointing to catgirls.win in his database

something how could that be then he was looking at it he realized that it was because um someone

was writing a message in binary on his website oh my god he looked into it eventually ended up

going down the rabbit hole and just went all right i'm gonna go to this website catgirls.win

backslash omcb

out it was a discord server called checking boxes and it was run by a bunch of teens that were

downloading data to make images on the website basically the way the website works it's one

million check boxes they asked him have you seen your check boxes in a thousand by thousand image

and then he did it he made the website that size and it said stuff like be gay do crime

qrp

code that leads back to the discord and things like that and they think the internet hurts

teenagers oh my god and the repeated noise at the bottom is the binary message that he found

he says the discord was full of some very sharp teens and they were writing these secret messages

to gather other very sharp or holy talk about botting the site anyone who was writing a bot

would probably be looking at either the base 64 version of the data the binary version or the

1000 to 1000 image version and they were covering all the bases

but i need a picture if you're curious has anyone got it

i've just found it

is it so

fifteen

and one

i have the

BP

link

club

guy

plus

on x

n

b

multi

or

for

code

still

go,

in

i

checking and unchecking these boxes these kids are amazing they rickrolled him and that clip

is in real time this is what the check boxes looked like in real time oh m g so this is

somebody's writing scripts to do this you humans couldn't do this yeah humans they were writing

scripts yeah um you couldn't do it by just your mouses and it's interesting because he ends up

like kind of going into there were certain times where he would he ended up building a relationship

with this discord and for instance when the washington post wrote about uh the thing he

messaged the discord was like hey the website's in the washington post if you're botting avoid the top

where all the new viewers of the website are going to land so that they're not upset when they click

a check box and it's automatically unclicked by your bot oh and i just i found this it's a really

like long um blog post and he gets into it and i just thought it was a really cute slice of the

internet it's a perfect

pair of

delightful rabbit hole oh it's wonderful this is on his sub stack which is aptly named e-i-e-i-o

dot sub stack dot com which stands for the electronic information uh and entertainment

industries organization many people don't know that no that's really good for him it feels like

a story from the old internet yeah it really does it is so recently i thought my most this is him

by the way the project was called one million check box so there's also a video

you can watch you just tell he's a nice guy you just know he seemed like a great guy and he says

when he was a kid in high school he wrote a bot that sent his friend a million spam messages

on email and accidentally crashed the school's email server so i think he felt a kinship with

the kids who were hacking his checkbox well i found so cute about that as he said about

crashing the school's email server the adults in my life were largely not mad at me they asked me

to knock it off but also made me a t-shirt i don't think i'd be doing what i do now but i'm going to

do it now without the encouragement that i received then which is so cute i think it's really

great that's a great story this is why when people say oh you know ai is going to take over all the

programming jobs and kids don't know how technology works and stuff maybe maybe a lot of kids don't

but there are kids out there who are just as excited about this stuff and getting into it

and hacking it and messing with it as ever and i love this and maybe i don't know how big this

group was does he say how many people think it ended up being like 60 some people yeah some of

these kids in in the country probably the nsa will be talking to each and every one of them

trying to offer them a job very nice good pick that's my pick of the week yeah the secret

inside 1 million check boxes and now ladies and gentlemen a shocking revelation from jeff jarvis

so you may not know paris that i get abuse on this show really abuse from who i'll beat them

i get it now stacy

was was guilty of this as much as anyone because i you know it's late here as you know and i need

to go have dinner and i found a wonderful way to have dinner that was delicious and quick and

inexpensive and convenient and i got abused for it it was trader joe's cacio e pepe pepe yes and i

enjoy it and i like it are you saying frozen cacio e pepe frozen

doesn't even know that you can just put spaghetti in a pot of water i can screw even that up

that's it and then i can screw that up and a little spaghetti water i mean yeah didn't you

one time burn yourself and you had to go to the asparagus yes yeah yeah yeah i made cacio e pepe

once for my wife and it was awful it was awful i couldn't do it so but i've found the bridge too

far i won't go and talk about bridges right now

uh there was a story this week about how climate change is making bridges more vulnerable to

falling apart but i'll leave that for another day oh come on uh yes it was there but i this

i have found the bridge too far the place i will not go heinz spaghetti carbonara in a can

what could possibly be wrong it's got everything you want spaghetti

creamy sauce pancetta and no artificial color is spelled with the u

evidently this is released in in the

k where they have no taste i would try it i'm not gonna lie i bet it's delicious i bet it's probably

too salty did you have chef boyardee when you were a kid yes until once as a child when i threw up

and i'd had chef boyardee spaghettios beforehand and i remember seeing all the spaghetti letters

still there and i never had it since i remember abby giving her wagon wheels you know the wagon

wheel pasta i love it when she was like eight months or something or nine months or something

months and there's nothing really kind of more terrifying than projectile wagon wheels

because they retain their shape they retain their shape yeah um listen i can't

i mean listen probably this is awful but i also can't knock it because i sometimes my

late night or early morning can't be bothered meal is um

it's mac and cheese in a like

little microwavable thing but it's cheetos flavored mac and cheese and i don't know why

but the cheetos flavor tastes so much better than all the other options

they've really figured it out and it's delightful you probably would enjoy then uh my my son salt

hanks amazon stream with the uh the very wonderful he sold quite a few of them a cheeto cheeto grinder

blender the cheeto grinder grinder blender the cheeto grinder grinder grinder blender blender

the cheeto grinder grinder blender blender blender blender blender blender blender blender blender

the cheeto duster yes cheeto duster you remember this oh do i remember it he was jealous

cheeto flavored dust oh i should have saved it i bought one i still to this day every time

you say cheeto duster i think you mean like duster like the jacket and a a duster jacket

floor length in the color of cheetos they should make that because i would buy it it's still on

amazon if you ever want to see it here is it's not just a a blender it was streamed live it's a it's

not a what it is it's a very bad blender i mean it's you wouldn't put anything but the weakest

cheetos in there you don't i wouldn't even use the crunchy cheetos i'd use the basic cheetos because

it's just a little weak food grinder um it's not powerful in any way but he made it look good

doesn't he didn't he and i think i got a very good deal on the cheetos duster let's see what the

what the price is last purchase december 8th

oh you can't get it anymore devastated well you should have kept it i never opened it i should

sell it on ebay yeah yeah oh my gosh get hank to sign it autographed oh you know it really

probably would be worse you can get it at walmart for 29.99 oh i only was 19.99 but i would i would

argue though that like as someone who's a big fan of crunchy things i would not use the duster

to add cheetos on top i would want to crumble them just slightly so that they retain their

crunchiness well from the look of what he was doing it didn't they didn't get them to dust

it got them to crumbles yeah yeah you can get you get to choose the level of okay actually my second

thought is could you dust them to the point where you could do like yes fried chicken cheetos he did

in fact make fried chicken so you get that's the beauty of the cheeto duster it can go anywhere

to dust literally dust here it is paris your cheetos colored duster which is a coat um i

think that's beautiful and a tin is a great idea i have to say i am a little bit of a stickler on

carbonara because i our local uh italian restaurant i think we probably have taken you there uh jeff

yeah uh cafe joster i ordered carbonara there and there were onions in it and i said dude that's

not carbonara here is a cheetos colored cheetos duster just for you parents it's honestly

beautiful it's gorgeous looks leather i will be wearing that at bryant park oh that's good to

yeah good to know the ingredients and hinds include pancetta corn flour skimmed milk powder

cheese powder sugar garlic flavoring onion extract no dried parsley just to give a little bit of

color there's there should there's no dairy in carbonara it feels like it's a

creamy sauce but you know dairy and it's just spaghetti water the water you save a little bit

of that and with the parmesan and the pancetta and that's all you need it's delicious

dang now i want carbonara i had when the dick tracy movie came out long back

what's his name who was the star dick tracy um warren beatty thank you warren beatty he wore

a yellow dick tracy coat

yes indeed when i left entertainment weekly in a huff my staff got me one of those as a farewell i

don't have it still it wouldn't fit oh and you kind of couldn't wear it anywhere but it was

pretty amazing very cool uh that is it we're done thank you so much to both jeff and paris

i cannot wait to meet you in person paris we've never met i know it's so exciting new york city

i have no idea whether or not you have legs but i'm excited if i don't

but i do use ai when i was just a torso yes

the metaverse characters were actually designed based on leo

then uh next week uh it will be are you hosting next week paris no micah is hosting next week

and then i will be hosting the week after that you're in croatia yeah yeah yes have fun in croatia

i shall

that's gonna be awesome i'll be here as always folks you can't jeff i have the bad penny no we

need jeff here to give for the continuity so next week micah jeff and do we know yet benito who will

be filling in for paris not yet not yet somebody very excited maybe you should get ed zitron on

that would be fun i'd love to see micah try and handle ed i would be painful wow uh and uh thank

you uh jeff i will see you next week bye

bye

see you for lunch uh and i will see you both after that in a couple of weeks i'll be back

on september 24th or 25th for this week in google uh thank you all for joining us we do this week

in google every wednesday 2 p.m pacific 5 p.m eastern 2100 utc you can watch us stream on

seven count them seven platforms youtube twitch x.com linkedin facebook i feel like

this is the cognitive test man woman gorilla camera clock has two

i've lost count uh kick and somewhere else uh but but if you can't watch live you can always get a

copy of the show after the fact we record it amazingly enough and download it either from

the website what yes it's this whole time forever twit.com or twitter.tv slash twig

uh or if actually when you get there you'll click see a link to the youtube channel you can see every

episode there in video or subscribe in your favorite podcast client to the audio or the

video you'll get it automatically that way which is very nice thank you to our club members who

made this all possible we really appreciate it uh and you gotta you gotta join so that leo can

afford a button on that shirt that's true i'm never wearing this shirt again i don't know if

it's a great shirt isn't it great the sombrero shirt

does it have sombrero buttons oh it's just regular maybe you should replace them with

some yeah that gotta work yeah or have a great vacation paris i will see you uh for lunch on

friday and uh we will see you all next time is that a cat probably well did you see the oh wait

wait wait wait one more story there's one more story did you see the story about the number 10

downing street cat that was in the wall street journal i put it in the rundown no

oh it's a beauty does this cat survive from prime minister to prime minister or yeah six prime

ministers but the other animals turns out that larry is a bastard he's mean

did you see it there larry the cat yeah pain in the blood there's a catastrophe

brewing on downing street here are larry the cat's best moments uh he's their chief mouser

new british prime minister care strommer has a lot in his mind

from the riots that swept england recently to britain's sluggish economy to the war in ukraine

but the former prosecutor has another issue troubling him how to handle larry the cat

got a pigeon

uh-oh the bobby's gonna open the door for him there goes larry he gets a bobby to open the

door for him larry is 17 years old oh my goodness they have a they have a communications plan for

when larry loses the time

oh they're gonna have to do a uh you know stop the bbc yeah go dark god save the car his wife

victoria and two teenage children moved into 10 downing street in july after a sweeping electoral

victory but another family member also moved in jojo a male ginger cat oh that's not jojo has

yet to meet larry and the family is working out how to engineer an encounter that doesn't end in

flying fur according to sources familiar with the matter the daily mail tabloid warned of a

catastrophe if the meeting goes wrong the headline for the next section is in quotes it's larry's

domain larry like many cats doesn't always take well to newcomers especially those on four legs

larry had quote heated exchanges with nova the labrador owned by former prime minister

rishi sunak nova came out in the losing end oh wow yeah they say according to the independent

you can't have a put a cat flap in the door you can't have a cat flap in the door you can't have

a cat flap in the door because they're bombproof so larry has to be let in and let out uh all by

himself oh here's the siberian wrote larry in my view is a bit of a thug i say this because our dog

dylan went a few times to larry's lair and larry being out at the time dylan decided entirely

naturally and reasonably to eat his food the reprisals were terrible he wrote in the newspaper

column dubbing larry a catzilla

i don't know but i think that this is actually the official x uh account no it's unofficial it's

not should police have to break up larry's fisticuffs with freya former chancellor george

osborne's cat layer larry tussled with palmerston a female that performed similar duties moral

support for staff and perhaps catching the occasional mouse at the nearby foreign and

commonwealth office i think this cat is my new uh catzilla catzilla catzilla catzilla catzilla catzilla

the political uh yeah idol survived six prime ministers they have a photo of larry hissing at

palmerston yes larry hurt palmerston's ear was damaged during an encounter with larry

and then he retired to the countryside in 2020 oh my god that is vicious

okay one more thing far from being spooked the starmers have doubled down and this week

brought a new cat

a siberian kissy eric a siberian kitty into the residence wow so i didn't mean to extend the show

beyond but i knew you'd enjoy that i really and the cat did outlays outlast liz trust so that's

good yeah for larry this new kitten might be the lesser of two evils the star martines originally

wanted a german shepherd but relented after a summer of negotiations wow wow delightful you

gotta love this that's what why they'll always say that's what they'll always say that's what they'll

always be in england yeah the cat outlives the prime minister you can't imagine the white house

six of them yeah that way you know oh yeah you're moving out no problem we still the cat's gonna stay

that would be great get larry uh the cat spaghetti carbonara for dinner and yeah

yeah all right so sorry you can you can already begin thanks for joining us everybody uh we'll

see you next time have a great vacation bye-bye on this week in google

ryan reynolds here from mint mobile with the price of just about everything going up during

inflation we thought we'd bring our prices down so to help us we brought in a reverse auctioneer

which is apparently a thing mint mobile unlimited premium wireless i'm going to get 30 30 i'm going

to get 20 20 20 i'm going to get 20 20 i'm going to get 15 15 15 15 just 15 bucks a month

give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch 45 up front payment equivalent to 15 per month new

customers on first three month plan only taxes and fees extra speeds lower above 40 gigabytes

detail ryan reynolds here for i guess my hundredth mint commercial no no no no no no no no no i mean

honestly when i started this i thought i only have to do like four of these i mean it's unlimited

premium wireless for 15 a month how are there still people paying two or three times that much

i'm sorry i shouldn't be victim blaming here give it a try at mintmobile.com

slash switch whenever you're ready 45 up front payment equivalent to 15 per month new customers

on first three month plan only taxes and fees extra speeds lower above 40 gigabytes see details