TWiT 995: The Story of Us - AnandTech Shuts Down, Brazil Bans X, Alexa Revamp

It's time for Twit This Week in Tech.

Got a great panel for you.

Lou Maresca's here from This Week in Enterprise Tech and Microsoft.

Doc Rock of YouTube fame and Ecamm star.

And, of course, the wonderful Wesley Faulkner, who's looking for work.

And maybe you can help him.

We love all three.

We will talk about AI and the new Amazon Echo that will cost $10 more.

Will it be better, smarter, or just chattier?

We'll also talk about Telegram CEO Pavel Dorov.

And we know a little bit more about why the French arrested him last week.

X has been shut down in Brazil.

And it's the end of the line for Anand Tech.

All that and more coming up next on Twit.

Podcasts you love.

From people you trust.

This is Twit.

This Week in Tech, episode 995.

Recorded Sunday, September 1st, 2024.

The story of us.

It's time for Twit This Week in Tech.

The show where we cover the week's tech news.

I am, yes, still in the attic.

I haven't moved.

But we have brought in two minds.

My attic.

Some wonderful people to help us take a look at the dearth of news this week.

Doc Rock is in town from Honolulu.

Aloha.

Good to see you again.

It's been a minute.

I love Doc Rock.

He is the, not only has his own YouTube channel, Doc Rock,

but is the director of strategic partnerships at Ecamm.

And in a way, we are partners.

We got married over the last.

Yeah.

Because when we moved out of the studio in the attic,

we started using Ecamm.

Instead of the TriCaster.

So now we are Ecammers.

It's, you know, it's been very helpful.

Believe it or not.

We absolutely love it.

It's, it's been a fantastic partnership.

So you guys have always been the best in tech, you know, forever.

And it was fun to explain to everybody why we should go to it.

And, you know, Ken and Glenn got it right away.

The rest of the team, we had to explain to them what a Twit was.

Oh, story of my life.

No, it's.

Poor Lisa, just a podcast network.

It stands for this.

We can talk anyway, doc.

It's great to see you and thank you for your help at Ecamm.

We really, we've been, so it's a kind of complicated solution we're using.

We're, we're, we're all on a zoom call using zoom ISO, which we use for years

in the studio and then Benito is in charge of switching at his house.

He is.

Did you do that on purpose, Benito, just to show us you have the power.

Is that what you were?

Doc did that.

No doc.

You did that.

That was me.

Don't be messing with us.

So Benito is switching from his house.

He is logged in via there.

He is.

Hi Benito.

He's logged in to Ecamm, uh, running, uh, using Splashtop to a Macintosh running in the cloud at Mac stadium.

So the Mac is running.

Ecamm he's Splashtop into it.

Splashtop is like VNCs.

He's networked into that.

And then, and then I'm, and then I don't know what, somehow there's a, I don't even know how it works.

It's too complicated.

The, the, the, the, the, the zoom call goes into the Ecamm at Mac stadium and then he switches it and then somewhere it gets recorded.

And then Bob's your uncle.

You got a podcast.

So thank you, doc.

You know, uh, this, I was messing around and then I had messed with Splashtop eons ago, like probably back at our, the last time we had back world.

Right.

So we're talking 2013, 2014.

And then when I was doing some testing and talking to him, you know, I went and I got Splashtop business again.

I was in Japan.

I had to edit a project in photocut and I forgot some of the files that I needed.

And so I logged in on Splashtop.

Open the final.

Final cut from Fukuoka, Japan, back to Honolulu, Hawaii, two tiny islands floating in the Pacific ocean.

And I edited on my Mac studio from the bed in my hotel in Fukuoka.

And it was freaking flawless.

And I wanted to hug Benito, but that's basically what Benito does every day.

Poor guy.

Anyway, great to have you, doc.

Rock.

You're not alone though.

Wesley Faulkner is here.

Hello, Wes.

Hello.

Good.

Great to see you.

Put up sound blankets to separate the rest of your, your home from.

From the rest of the world.

That's a washer and dryer on the other side of that.

Oh, okay.

That's all right.

I don't, I don't, I don't judge people for where they, where they stream from.

Yeah.

I can't have all of this room.

Yeah.

I have all of this room, except you don't see what's, this is the beauty of cameras.

Whatever's outside that it doesn't, doesn't exist.

Right.

As long as it's outside of the frame, it doesn't exist.

Yeah.

I'm glad you can't see the floor right now or my desk.

Actually.

I have a, uh, kind of a spy cam that lets you see the actual setup here.

So there you go.

That's the whole kit and caboodle.

Uh, we won't show that again.

Also with us anyway.

Great to see you, Wesley.

Great to be here.

Thanks.

Wesley 83.com is his link tree.

Also with us, the wonderful Lou Maresca, former host of this week in enterprise

tech, he's principal engineering manager at Microsoft lives in UI land.

Yeah.

I do.

I do live in UI land, live on AI land, live in all the lands, all the lands, all the lands,

all the land.

Well, who's winning an AI these days.

Now, wait a minute.

Take off your Microsoft hat.

Don't say co-pilot who's winning.

I guess you don't have it.

Oh, open AI is winning an AI right there.

I guess open AI.

I like Claude.

Uh, I think we're going to see in a few days, we're going to see what Apple has under its hood.

Right.

Pixel shipped the pixel nine.

I got that.

And, uh, it's got some.

It's got some interesting AI features.

It's quite a race.

It is.

It keeps me busy.

It's exciting.

Yeah.

So I know you're in the office open AI too.

So that's the funny thing about that.

Right.

He did.

He dodged a bullet.

Didn't he?

I will say that, um, Apple intelligence so far in beta, even though it's been extremely

limited has is actually incredible just for it's so personal to you.

It's not like you're talking to the diaspora.

You're talking to yourself.

Really?

That sounds weird.

So we're going to see a little truth is in NVIDIA when is winning, right?

NVIDIA is winning because they're like the Levi's of all of this.

Levi's made money on the gold Russian in 1849 because they made the Levi's the jeans.

And even if you didn't hit gold, you needed some jeans.

So, so that's, they're, they're making the picks and hammers is what, uh, what NVIDIA

is doing.

Yeah.

Big winners.

Anybody who puts AI on their product is big winners these days.

Yeah.

Um, Apple's event has been announced.

We know it will now be September 9th, Monday, a week from Monday, a week from tomorrow,

by the way.

Happy September.

Can you believe it's September?

Unbelievable.

Yeah.

What the hell happened this summer?

Happy labor day.

Terrible.

Yeah.

I'm still wearing my, can I wear my white shoes and I can, and my white belt until

after labor day until Tuesday after Tuesday.

So I'm okay.

This for the weekend.

Yeah.

Oh good.

Then once Tuesday come around, it's over.

No more white shoes for me.

So Apple's event will be a week from Monday.

Uh, and the reason it can be obviously is because Apple records these now and, uh, and

nobody needs to, uh, to, to work on labor day or the Sunday or anything like that.

They probably have it already done.

They will show their new iPhone 16 and maybe a little more of Apple intelligence.

Although according to Mark Gurman, and I think all the pundits, we're not going to see the

real Apple intelligence in public until October, right?

Even then though, even then it's not going to be full fledged Apple intelligence doc.

You're playing with the beta.

Yes.

And you know what?

So here's the funny thing about this.

Cause most of the, the YouTube punditry, my friends who I yell at constantly, um, is they're

like, it's not full fledged.

Here's a story about AI.

It's never full fledged.

It's a growing thing.

So adding that label to it, I get what your, your sentiment is, but it's never going to

stop.

That was like, you know, the X 86 was the best processor ever until it wasn't, you know,

like it's going to always grow.

So we have the best.

My favorite line is AI is the dopest it will ever be today.

As good as it would, it would change, you know, pretty much tomorrow.

So people who feel like they're late jumping in or whatever, I'm like jumping now because,

it'll be completely different in two weeks.

Um, Amazon has decided that they're going to add AI to a L E X a, is it, let me ask the

podcasters amongst us.

Is it safe to say the a word now?

Do people just say echo, just say echo, say echo.

Okay.

Echo.

I call her Alicia.

I think you have a button.

I actually have a button for that.

Wait a minute.

The question is like, who's going to pay for it?

Okay.

So who's going to pay for it?

So that's a good question.

Good question.

Oh, there's echo.

$10 a month.

Amazon wants for the echo, your friend, echo, your jolly little AI friend echo, right?

I'm not going to pay.

I don't care how good it is.

Of course.

Isn't that ironic?

Cause I paid $20 to open AI.

Right.

So right.

Exactly.

I pay $30 to Microsoft.

I paid $20 to anthropic and I pay, well, I was paying $20 to Google.

Now I get Gemini for free for a year.

So I don't have to pay that one anymore.

But the issue was that for the Amazon echo, people use it for what timers and listening

to music and just very things.

How is artificial intelligence going to make any of that better?

And how is it going to make it appealing to pay for?

And there's always been an issue with these AI or these voice assistants where it's discoverability

of what it can do.

And now you're making it more.

Capable to figure out what you're going to do.

And it's just going to, there's going to be an analysis paralysis about this.

How are people going to figure out how to use the timers will be so much better.

It will lie to you.

Here's why.

Here's why you're right.

Why you are right.

Wesley, I, one of the things that I used to do on Amazon a lot is like, I need to pick

a product.

Okay.

So Leo and I are both, uh, unified people, right?

I have a whole ubiquity set up all over.

Yes.

Say I'm looking for, I want to add a switch, right?

And they're better now before they would have five models that kind of were almost the same,

but a little bit different each.

And it was like trying to figure out which is the newest, whatever.

So you'd have to sit there in Amazon and go through all of the, the various processes

to figure which is which now just go to perplexity and I tell it, build me a comparison chart

of these ubiquity models and perplexity, which now Google is starting to add to theirs.

Um, it would.

It would just give me the answer.

Like I could just pull up this chart real quick, look at it, see what's going on.

Go make my order at ui.com echo might be able to bring some of that to the party, but like

I'm not paying you for me to go buy stuff from you, but there's no screen, right?

There's no screen.

My kitchen one has a screen.

Your kitchen one has a screen, but if you do have a screen, then you have to act.

They have to interact with it.

Is the screen is tiny for an old man.

Let's just get.

I mean, what's compelling for me is the automation scenario.

If they can plug it into, Hey, go build this automation for me, go set up a routine for

me, or that kind of thing.

Like, I think they're going to probably drop the ball out of the, out of the gate.

But if they can do that, that's what will really change the difference between all these

AI assistants at this point, because they have connections to all these integrations and

on hardware.

I think that's what they need, but they won't have that.

It'd be so nice to wake up, open your eyes and say, good morning echo.

And, and, and then whoops.

Yeah.

Good morning.

Echo go, go, go.

And then, uh, I'm wondering if I do that, if it will stop triggering, if I say Alexa,

will that fix the trigger?

I don't know.

Anyway, it would be nice to wake up.

I'm sorry.

I'm going to keep my, my hands off the buttons.

I apologize.

It'd be nice if you could wake up and say, Hey, good morning echo.

And it would open the curtains and start the coffee, you know, turn on the air conditioning

in the car.

I'm like, how are you doing?

I'm like, I'm going to wash up.

You know, I don't know what the fuck you're doing, but I'm like, how are you doing?

And I'm like, that's kind of, that's kind of the first thing that comes up.

And then take off the cup and then I'm like, oh my gosh, that's not working.

I'm like, I'm like you're not doing that.

If you want to do that.

Yeah.

And it's, it's a, it's a, a good idea.

If you determine that one, that's a good idea.

I'm going to stop some drinking coffee and I'm going to take a drink and then we'll

have a drink.

Yeah.

And it's the final thing that makes it just a little bit better, right?

Yeah.

honing it in rather than actually making it focused so if they started with the basics and

saying these are the things that we know are true these are the routines that we know about these

are and not only would they give like a clear saying like these things work and and we we've

tested them and we've made sure that these things work but now they're just making it a giant like

box of chocolate you don't know what you're going to get when you do one of these commands how will

it interpret it what will it do what will it use that information for where is this being stored

who is it sending it to are they're going to also send it to their advertisers

all this stuff is just like a giant question mark and especially amazon right yeah furthermore

because this came on the heels of us learning i think from the information or no it's a wall

street journal that amazon had lost tens of billions of dollars on on echo because they

had hoped they were subsidizing i guess the hardware and

of course it cost money to run the servers they'd hope people would use it for money making things

for them like buying stuff from amazon instead as you said they just used it for timing pasta

and uh and what's the weather going to be and that and that's all we use it for too to be honest

i love your idea of using it for home automation i went out and bought the um home assistant server

the ha green and at least it goes out and discovers everything but it doesn't i mean it's like the

same thing you could then say open those blinds turn that right on and that generic llms can't do

it i mean you're going to have to you have to fine tune you have to add another integration to it so

there's a lot of extra work that amazon would have to do on top of anthropic to make it all work and

that's why i'm fairly certain that they're not going to be there in the v1 scenario so we'll see

yeah i got all excited because i saw that amazon was going to release remarkable and I thought oh

they bought the remarkable no no that's what they're calling in a massive confusion remarkable

makes a nice and i love it tablet that you can write on uh as does amazon by the way uh they've

named their uh AI version of echo remarkable uh a word uh and you use it too it's great isn't it

love it yeah yeah it's great um so five Reuters says they're going to charge five to ten dollars

a month for the new remarkable version do uh release in October ahead of the holiday season

Reuters

is also the one that says uh it will be using anthropic's Claude AI Claude sonnet the latest

cloud is pretty good one of the reasons I made for all of these and I forgot they also pay 20

bucks a month for perplexity is so I can try them all and they're you know some are better at some

things and than others I'm afraid that all it's going to do is is but the remarkable Echo will

be just chatty Echo right Leo you didn't get your uh perplexity for free for being dumb enough

to buy one of these oh you bought an r1 he's got it ladies and gentlemen hey you know what I got

$200 worth of perplexity credit so it's not a complete wash and orange is a color that I love

so it's cute but it's designed by uh those uh who is that bernito that you love so much that

yeah well they should have called blue and asked him some questions yeah

it's just it turns out we found out that that r1 is just an Android device running an app

basically Raspberry Pi in a box right yeah yeah sort of it's a it's a little portable pie it's

like a McDonald's pie it's a tiny little pie you got a happy meal new headline tomorrow yeah don't

those burn you as well oh just don't Wesley you're on fire today don't keep it in your lap that's all

I'm saying uh initial versions of the new a word using in-house software converter simply struggled

for words sometimes

oh this is your worst nightmare I'm paying 10 bucks for this sometimes taking seven seconds

to acknowledge a prompt and reply it's I'm thinking I'm thinking here uh oh okay that's

why okay this was the version that in-house Amazon uh intelligence that's why they turned to Claude

because it's faster but is it is it better I don't know uh at least you won't wait seven seconds for

it to respond you know it's so weird

because Amazon had such success with echo it was it's in my car it's in every device you know my

Sonos speaker says will you want to use echo to talk to us no uh my Sonos speakers have their own

AI voice that Google's voice and Alexis and it's all terrible none of it works although the nice

thing about the Sonos voice is it's Giancarlo Esposito uh the guy from uh Breaking Bad who will

those pollos hermanos gus it's gus fring gus fring in my in my sonos so when he says i don't know

what you're saying at least it's gus fring saying that that's that's all we can expect in fact

really that's a g big brother of my t i almost pay 10 bucks just to have celebrity voices and

leave it at that yeah man like scarlett johansson with james that was the best yeah yeah i've so

amazon tried that but they all expired right i had yeah they expired didn't they yes they had

some good ones on ways too like they these companies that do a really good job of getting

these celebrities to do them yeah anthropic in which amazon owns a minority stake did not confirm

the reuters story um amazon a spokesperson said amazon uses many different technologies to power

a word when it comes to machine learning models we start with those built by amazon but we have

you

used and we'll continue to use a variety of different models including titan which is

amazon's ai it's funny is that the first time you've ever heard that the amazon's ai is named

titan it is for me uh no unfortunately no you knew this oh wait a minute that be maybe because

of your who your employer used to be yeah yeah okay we won't we'll say no more say no more

you are the only person who knew this how much how tight could it be

though right it's using anthropic yeah it can't be that titan future as well as partners build the

best experience for customers blah blah blah blah blah um the use of the remarkable a word

that is it is known internally is expected in october with a preview coming during annuals event

their devices and services event which is coming up pretty soon i think

do we know when i don't know when sometime this month amazon has not yet said what's going to happen

when it plans to hold a showcase event oh if i just read the next sentence i would know

i i've read this and this is the thing that makes me even more scared about the launch is they don't

know anything oh what price will it be no idea when will we launch it i don't know if you haven't

figured it out now yeah that means that they haven't they're waiting the last minute aren't

they and so like it's like why don't you have why why didn't you figure this out before you started

creating this product and that's the part where it's just like oh my gosh you're just throwing

things and see what sticks and which

which you know sometimes works but also if you if if you don't know internally what

you're doing externally how are you going to project that to get people to buy it

and another people are going to set expectations that are wrong doesn't know amazon says it sold

half a billion uh echoes but it doesn't know how many active users there are and that's a funny one

too because one thing is better now but one thing that they're famous for is disconnecting themselves

from your network

and so i would always get it telling me oh you got to reconnect and i got you know what they don't

know a minute and so yeah so that's why they don't mean how many we're going to use you now

or maybe how we ever have been connected to how many we've ever been that's even more funny well

the reason why it's funny is if you juxtapose that against all of the people that think the thing is

constantly listening to you i'm like yeah i'm sorry that math doesn't matter right so there's

that part of it as well so what's the reason why you don't know how many active users there are so

there's that part of it as well so what's the reason why you don't know how many active users there are so

i have to ask this wesley and and just uh you know don't say anything if you can you used to

work there i used to work at aws as a division of uh but not not in the ai division oh okay

that was a look okay you worked somewhere inside aws somewhere somewhere aside aws that that was

tangentially

tangentially connected to a lot of different

connected to a lot of different projects and services okay but you don't work there anymore

projects and services okay but you don't work there anymore i don't know did you sign a piece

i don't know did you sign a piece of paper that says you can't say anything

of paper that says you can't say anything if i did i couldn't say that i did

play club

i know i'm not i don't want to pry or anything and you won't you know you

only need to say what you want to say but obviously we raised that

issue it came up so i probably should say something about it yes disclosure yes i used

to work for aws uh for two years yeah yeah do you think that this is a uh an exit from honeymoons

group phase for Liouw Leo Panos like i feel like panos penne who's got to this company who stepped

into this company into this role almost the impossible rule this is a way for him to to

kind of stretch a little bit of his muscles thanks for bringing that up panos penny who was oh that's

the link between you and me yeah yeah he's the tenuous thread that connects the two of you uh

panos panos 是令 textも全身的用符 .歌詞词中GAN Mon sauce La 왔 Rose is a lot of the though Les use to connect the two of you panos was of course if you haven't I hate the lag team because i love D gap jerseys you too if I'm not in the draw i'd love to be a

panos was of course at microsoft chief product officer at microsoft he's the one who was always

pumped he was so pumped to show you the new surface i'm so pumped uh and then he left kind

of abruptly i you know there was always the question about whether he was pushed out or

um yeah we don't know you don't know i'm not asking you lou no i don't know yeah um but it

left abruptly and then it was announced that he uh was going to go to lead amazon's consumer

electronics business which includes not just echo but kindle fire tv fire tablets the ring

doorbells ero networking blink and even the amazon app store so he's got a big thing but i think this

amazon this this a word uh products showcase which they do every year will probably be i i expect

panels to be pretty but pretty pumped

for all no i don't and if i bet he came into amazon and had a rude awakening about how much

impact he would be able to have yeah everything's stagnated if you look a whole list that you just

gave it just stagnated for like five years now right ring blank you name it and because he's

not even able yeah let's move technology for a side for a second he's not even no one's able

able to even do a pr spin around his influence or what is to come or changes their

are on the horizon it's been super quiet and they're not saying anything because there's nothing

to be said and probably nothing to be expected so i think he he probably is just like living in his

own private hell about the lack of impact and how confusing and chaotic it is inside

well that makes it even funny because it does okay so without saying that we've all kind of

like approached this as this is someone is a somewhat of a

for amazon considering nothing said but you have to understand that if everybody else is making

moves and they're the only ones that hasn't and they're still considered a pretty big fish

then you look like the dude on the best the best tournament on espn that his rod ain't even flinked

once why everybody else you know even the rookie guys the guests or the celebrities that they bring

on even those guys caught a fish so far you haven't done anything so they were like okay can

you swim under there hook a fish onto this thing and then come back up so i can pretend and this

is basically what this is for now now they might look up and find something dope to do with this

but it kind of seems like it's just we have to do something people there's a certain i don't know

there's an irony in the fact that the guy who's famous for being pumped replaced a guy named dave

limp at a dave limp that's so funny i laughed at that myself i don't know if there's anything to

be said about it but i just i thought that was interesting

so you think this is interesting you think that poor pano i don't know if i said say poor but

poor panos i always liked i he was a he was a look it was microsoft's way of trying to find

a steve jobs presenter you know he's well liked nice people and actually stevie batish to me is

the guy i would rather see presenting he's amazing and his his when he talks about ai at microsoft i

listen panos was always a little over the top for me but he was there and he was there and he was

that guy he was a showman uh and you're telling me that he's going to get to amazon and and all

the all the air is going to go out of his pump balloon and he's going to be the next dave limp

is that what you're telling me let me give you a scenario okay the the the cornerstone of what

would make amazon a powerhouse is if they're able to connect things together to have more of an

ecosystem because they are in a lot of different things like for instance if you could use the

uh echo to dictate notes to your kindle scribe right oh wouldn't that be just like and then

you're like hey start a new document this is what i'm thinking of blah blah it cleans it up it sends

like the raw version and edited version to your scribe and you can edit up mark it up or whatever

and make changes and then you're able to have that synergy that requires you to have like a

connection with the team that makes the devices and the software and then and if you've ever

worked at a company like the one that we were talking about you realize that there are so many

cowboys and independents and people are just doing whatever they want to do

and they don't have to listen to you um and if you cannot convince them or if you can't say like

this is what you're going to get if you do this and bribe them basically you don't get anywhere

uh and that that scenario is like it took me what five seconds to think about it

and it's something that could actually bring value but let that's not even in the rumors

of something that might even happen you had you had a visceral reaction i was watching you it was

like yeah yeah it was clear um well maybe we'll find out i mean they don't traditionally stream

that event uh in fact they don't even really allow people to kind of tweet from it so we

have to wait till afterwards to find out what they announce and how it went

but um yeah i bet whatever they announce though it'll be ready months or like it would not be that

day yeah yeah yeah they need a leader they you're right so andy jassy maybe isn't that guy but they

need a leader who can unify this all the i feel like the problem is a little bit that jeff bezos

just said all right i'm done i'm out of here and just walked away and and got away in the nick of

time maybe but left a company kind of in

disarray and i don't think andy jassy has pulled it back together again

and you're not gonna say it's the same kind of google problem where they printed a lot of money

we see this again and again where they just like well no matter what we do we're going to be

getting money so like why do we try so hard and so the incentive structure internally is not one

to let you take chances or to be able to try something in a way that you can at least

structurally saying like if this works we're going to hit it big

we're like okay we got to do something like from the top down where they're telling us to do ai

things and so you make the ai things that someone's telling you to do without any thought

behind it because that's the incentive is to follow the direction of people who sign your

paychecks rather than listening to the ideas from people who work in different departments and then

try to get them together and collaborate and build something new and unique and then thrust that

forward if it doesn't come from the top then then maybe you're incentivized to do it maybe you're

but you're really really just want to make sure you rest invest and just don't get fired and just

stay as long as you can because um if you try something new and it doesn't work you're out of

there um so panos might be uh looking for another job unlike google uh and i don't know i've read i

don't know if this is true but unlike google amazon doesn't quit to retire things they just

kind of put them on the back burner you're kind of in this limbo and you don't get resources you

mentioned but you also don't get canceled and maybe maybe google deserves some more credit even

though they get a lot of hell for canceling things they deserve more credit for at least

saying okay we're done moving on that is that is until there's a leadership change in a reorg and

did we didn't they just get like a new leadership structure new ceo over on the aws side and

and so all all of this is being shaken up and then there is the return to office

and there are layoffs there's a lot of restructuring going on so this is the time where where they i

think yeah this is the time where like the whole what you're talking about the echo division got

like cut off like things are currently being the house is being cleaned

he was matt garman was uh at 18 years at amazon that's pretty typical too i think for a lot of

people before he got uh pushed aside so um well matt garden got he's in and it's adam salipski who

stepped aside is that right okay just to give you an idea nobody knows who the hell these people are

or even that it happened

it's just a giant monolith of a company 25 of this pot it's gas knows yeah one

i you know it's this is credit by the way lou and i'm not kissing up to you but credit to satchin

adela uh who took a company that was at the end of its you know their business cycles it was kind

of at the end of its of its business cycle and brought it back to life in a very big way uh the

only other company i can think of that's done this in the tech sphere is apple which has survived

kind of the up and down um but it's very hard google's having a hard time amazon's having a

hard time right yeah i mean if you think about it such a difficult time to think about it it's

such a difficult time to think about it it's such a difficult time to think about it it's such a

difficult time to think about it it's such a difficult time to think about it it's such

a difficult time to think about it it's such a difficult time to think about it it's such a

doing he's made the company the way it is by using relationships

and that's really what steve did because he made relationships with companies and

so salipski he also streamlined a little bit as well like this i think i think i always

call them such a nutella um i think he's a russia nutella is what zephyr west calls them

in our youtube chat right that's mean it did such a great job of like let's stop

trying to do everything let's pull back some of the tentacles of just being involved in everything

and let's focus on some some key pillars and i think that level of streamlining really did help

uh microsoft make the turnaround and you know getting rid of mobile was brilliant like that

was that was a play that just wasn't going to look good and it was costing a lot of money

and it's like what are we doing like why do we have to do everything let's just chill out that

was bomber's big deal right he bought nokia bomber really wanted to get microsoft into mobile

i understand what he was thinking because he's watching apple soar with mobile uh so he bought

nokia and then the first thing nadela did was dump it write it off which was crazy because

at the end of the day windows mobile devices were sick right i still never got legs

was it a good business decision though would it would would there have been 100

yeah it had

be right it had to be i think it's a shame we deserve more than two platforms for mobile

there's only ios and android it would be wonderful if there were a third don't you think

i think so a hundred percent but their issue is they they targeted north america if they charted

like india or something and they launched there that would have been a winning strategy that's

a hundred percent facts right there had they had enough word with all to reach outside of

the confines of the us they would have probably done a lot better and we'd still have windows

mobile but at the time he's it's almost like uh you know i i know tech people hate to use

a sports metaphor but i'm going to use one it's almost like getting rid of um like what's his

face to or ai these are the top players on both teams but they were painting the butt and they

caused a lot of trouble and so the coaches that came in and said we're going to take

risks and get rid of the legit best player on our team because the whole team needs to focus

completely change both teams okay let me translate that into nerd okay because no

one understood what you just said oh lou did lou got it i saw his head

uh if a team has a guy who's a real peta a real pain in the butt even if he's your best player

you might get rid of him because it's not good for team coherence is that what you're saying that's

the thing and mobile at the time was just as good as it was it was a complete disconnect from what

they were trying to do and what they were focused on and growth potentials that had to happen

so they had to get rid of it even though it was kind of a winner i think it's really complex i

mean they couldn't get developers part of the problem was they were the third platform they

couldn't get developers to write for it they also couldn't get and this was maybe the bigger one

they couldn't get verizon and att to recommend it they'd put them in the stores but the and and most

americans maybe you're right if they'd gone outside the u.s they would have a shot but most

americans buy from the the big phone companies and if it's not in the phone i'm told if it's not in

the phone stores this is what happened to huawei when it got uh they had a deal with verizon and

att and as soon as the u.s government convinced them no you shouldn't have a chinese phone

in your stores and they canceled that deal huawei said that's it

we're done in the u.s market because we can't possibly sell direct to consumers right so you can

you can blame the phone companies too maybe microsoft didn't bring the bags of cash to them

that they should have it was definitely ecosystem problem like they didn't have all the big apps on

there like every app would come out and it would be missing windows phone uh you know it wasn't

that it wasn't easy to develop on to be honest with you it's probably one of the they already

knew how it was windows yeah yep yeah this this is a chicken and egg problem right they said they

can't get any developers so move to a region where developers don't matter right where's that like

is like india it doesn't matter if you have the apps it's because you go low level you need people

who need internet access and being able to text um once you're that's why android does well but

those are fifty dollar phones you could make a fifty dollar you think that's what i'm saying

they could have done that that's where they could have played they had nokia they could have

absolutely done that and to wesley's point one thing that is very different about say developing

in a country like india is you it's easier to develop when you have

a homogeneous nation where the culture is kind of sort of one to two things versus trying to

develop for a culture that is six seven hundred separate things so yes they could have done some

things i think a lot more low-level apps things that just fit exactly to a culture and at the time

nobody was focusing on that once windows mobile went out the window all the device platforms

i'm sorry device sellers like uh t-mobile at&t whatever they

built an entire tertiary uh mobile market into india right like what to do with the the phones

when they're no longer being subsidized and you're trading them all in what are you going to do with

the second hand or third phones right and they exploded in places like india so yeah they

literally were right at the right customers there's in the bad timing you know they opened

up a all-you-can-eat burger restaurant right when the country decided to go vegan that's doc rock

always great to have you on youtube.com doc rock he's also at ecamm and we thank you for your

support uh he came getting us into the modern world i feel like a twitch streamer here in my

little attic studio but i don't have those blinky things behind you i just my blinky things are a

pdp and a uh and a mitts altair that's not although i'm trying to get the mac to blink

if i get the mac to blink then then then i'll have something also

here wesley faulkner wesley what are you doing these days wesley83.com is your link

tree i'm doing a lot of public speaking uh i will be i was we were joking in the pre-show

but i'll be at the blacks in tech conference in atlanta next week oh there really is one

oh that's hysterical i was just teasing you guys okay yeah i'll be uh speaking at cmx

global at the end of the month as well and um uh black path uh python devs as

also having a conference and i will be there as well so i'm doing a lot of public speaking right

now and also a spokesperson for a neurodivergent uh folk yeah neurodiverse you know never and i'm

also um listed on this you see some projects i'm working on so i'm on i'm on the board here in

blacks and tech in southwest virginia but i'm also um the linux foundation is creating a separate

foundation for developer relations okay and so um i'm part of the steering committee

and so we're kicking that off soon and we're going to make an announcement uh let's i'll just

say this month uh to and so we're right after a lot of feedback probably right and so um if you're

if you're in developer relations and you're listening to this click on the link for the

foundation go into it's going to take you to a place where you can find our github discussions

there's a plan for how we're going to take community feedback

and so please

look it over give us some feedback about what you think should be changed if you think we're

on the right track and so please please do that it's linux focus because it's part of the linux

foundation right well it's developer relations is a it's going to be a child organization off

the linux foundations to make sure that shows that we're not beholden to any specific company

and so we're so it's kind of like a non-partisan part of developer relations to make sure that

we service both business interests in general but also the developer community

uh at large to make sure that um we are not just making sure companies get fat but developers get

educated and they get knowledgeable about new upcoming services projects and all that stuff

that comes out so um that's something i'm extremely uh happy about because developer relations has

been around for a bit but it's one of those things where someone takes it and changes the name changes

what they think it is and then they just make a definition of what they think it is it's like

some kind of a

it's one of those things where people have yeah it's often marketing isn't it really it's often

like people think that you should use our stuff

People think that's what it is.

Or content creators that influence their stuff.

Like, I want you to, like, going viral on YouTube or on Twitch or whatever, people think that's developer relations.

And it's just convincing people at the top of the funnel for awareness or creating content, like write a blog post.

There's a lot of things that we do that people can see, but there's a lot of things that people don't see behind the scenes, which is really what developer relations is.

But if you're just outside looking in, then you don't really understand the mechanics and all of the talent and the skills needed in order to make all this look effortless.

And so that's the part that we're trying to make sure that we have a center of knowledge.

And not only that, it's just like real definitions and, like, making sure that the ownership doesn't go to these people who don't know what they're doing.

Yay.

Sounds good.

Go to Wesley83.com and click the link for DevRel Foundation.

You can get involved.

This is a good time to do it.

Right at the beginning.

Yeah.

Thank you, Wesley.

It's great to have you.

And also Lou MM, who is a developer, ironically enough.

Yes.

For 20 years.

20 years.

Yeah.

It's great to have all three of you.

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So, let's see.

What else?

We talked about Amazon.

We talked about AI.

Let's talk about Pavel Durov.

The news broke this time last week.

So, we were right on top of it during TWIT.

Pavel Durov, the CEO and founder of Telegram, arrested in Paris.

We weren't sure at the time exactly why he was arrested.

He wasn't charged immediately.

Took a few days before the match.

And this is how it works in France.

It's a little weird.

But the magistrates ended up charging him with a variety of failings.

The charge, failing to properly fight crime on the app, including the spread of child sexual abuse material.

Also, by the way, he's out on bail right now.

But also, it is believed not cooperating with the law.

Pavel was set $5.56 million.

The question is, and this is a question everybody in the U.S. is asking, and certainly Elon Musk is asking, is what was it he did?

Was it not moderating sufficiently?

Or was it not giving the keys to encrypted chats to the French authorities?

It's interesting.

Yeah.

Durov was released from political...

Sorry.

police custody earlier uh in the day on wednesday and uh the formal investigation announced wednesday

evening does not apply guilt this is the french legal system it's a little weird but indicates

that prosecutors believe there is an it's not an indictment exactly but there's enough of a case to

merit a serious investigation so there is no formal charge uh among other things the they

were concerned about is the quote near absence of response from telegram to court requests

subpoenas in effect concerning offenses including trafficking online hate speech and pedophilia

the suspected acts being probed include complicity in the administration of a platform

enabling

an illegal transaction in an organized gang so the concern is one this is a part of uh the

government uh governments worldwide trying to break through encryption uh but also uh it may

well be that he did kind of breach the line by not responding to legitimate requests for

information subpoenas they'd be called in the u.s i don't know what they call them in france

subpoena anyway

anyway um cause for concern or is durev uh a bad actor who deserves to be prosecuted prosecuted

or both okay i'm gonna say something but i don't i haven't done all my research but this is what i

am assuming uh one yes i think he just ignored the letters and just didn't respond and how else

are you supposed to do that but the the thing that i think why he personally got arrested

is probably this thing that i've heard and i've seen it people do who have this much money and

want to do whatever they want is that when they run a company they actually have very little if any

employees and most everyone is a contractor telegram is famously lean they have just i think

they said 30 engineers and 50 moderators for nearly a billion active monthly users which means

that they're basically these people just they're they're they're they're they're they're they're

they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're

these people just they're they're they're they're they're literally

words inaudible

who plotted the 2015 uh murders in france the people who plotted the

January 6th, insurrection in the United States, both the Russian army and the Ukrainian army

use telegram.

Right.

It's kind of used by everybody.

Nobody's denying that.

Yes.

And it's also used by the French government.

And yeah, by the way, yes, every minister in France uses telegram.

Yeah.

And but the only now is because they are not responding to specific requests.

It'd be one thing if they deny the request, but there's been nothing that I've seen that

shows that they refused or they actually said that they're not going to do it or putting

to appeal or like challenging anything in court.

They're not doing any of that.

They're just ignoring it.

So that is something I don't think you can get away with is just ignoring it.

It doesn't go away just because you stick your head in the sand and then you don't just

get to live your life and act like nothing happened.

So because like a lot of it is speculation.

Oh, it's telegram or it's encrypted.

Well, partly we have to speculate.

Because the French haven't been very forthcoming in what they're charging him with.

Emmanuel Macron, the president of France, said it's not political in a rare statement

about a magisterial action in France.

He said they're not saying what they're charging him with.

They're saying why.

And the reason why is they're not.

They're not.

They're not responding.

He didn't respond.

So I don't think it's cryptic about why he was arrested.

What they're actually trying to dig up.

There's a possibility they don't want to spook.

Or scare off or tip their hand about who specifically they're investigating.

So from that point, it's vague.

And it should be.

Because it's an act of investigation.

But saying, you know, you don't just get to say, no, no, no bueno.

So Spanish instead of French.

But you don't say, you don't get to just say whatever you just like ignore it and just

let it go away.

I think they made it clear that that was what was happening.

Durov is a joint citizen of the United Arab Emirates and France.

But he's a former Russian citizen.

He was born in the Soviet Union.

Left Russia after the Russian government forced him to sell his VKontakte, which is a Facebook,

basically a Facebook in Russia.

Fled to Dubai.

Has been living in Dubai.

But apparently also has a French citizenship and flew into France on his private plane

last week and was arrested almost immediately.

Yeah, I wonder, you know, we just don't know.

It's related, though.

To a similar story in Brazil, where X, formerly known as Twitter, is now blocked.

The shutdown started early yesterday, making it inaccessible on the Web after Elon Musk

refused to name a legal representative in the country.

Supreme Court Justice Alexandre de Moraes said you must name a legal representative

who will be responsible.

This is countries do this.

Russia does it.

China does it as well.

Somebody in country.

We can arrest if you don't adhere to our rules.

Yeah, they are waxed and then removed.

Yeah, given the Brazilian treatment.

So on the one hand, I want to fight for the right of platforms to be kind of uncensored.

But at the same time, there does seem to be kind of a minimum that a platform needs to

do to stay in a country.

One is, of course, respond.

And the other is, of course, respond to legal warrants asking for information.

But what if the government, and we don't know this, what if the government of France is

asking Pavel Dourov to give them the keys to the encryption so that, by the way, Telegram

is not a very encrypted app.

It's not end-to-end encrypted, probably.

You have to jump through hoops to turn on encryption.

And group chats are never or cannot be encrypted.

And most of what's on Telegram is not just unencrypted, but it's public.

They're live.

They're large public groups, many of which are unsavory, to say the least.

But I don't know if unsavory content justifies arresting the founder and owner of the condo.

Yeah, that's like almost like taking out the owner of a building because some dude bought

a condo and was selling illegal whatever in there.

It doesn't really match.

Right.

To me, the hardest part about this conversation is Elon likes to use the blanket terms of

censorship and, you know, controlling and stuff when it works in his favor, when it's

something that he doesn't like, Oh, he'll censor that.

But that's not censorship.

Right.

And it's weird because this dude wants to play both sides of, of the situation, and I just

just think he is at the point where he thinks he's lex luther like he really really is trying to be

the quintessential villain person let me disrupt everything do everything no one can control me

i got enough money to buy my way at everything so he's he's almost acting on a level of i won't use

the word but you squirted out of a bottle um ketchup mustard yeah there you go okay i think

he's really funny i was going to say this he's relishing in how like abrasive can he be and get

away with it and and i think he's at this point just poking for no reason well he's you know

brazil is a very big market for x they're not anywhere close to the number one

social tool they're not as popular according to the ap as facebook instagram youtube or tick tock

but still a big platform you remember when brazil tried to shut down whatsapp the brazilian courts

shut down whatsapp for about five minutes and the protests in brazil were so aggressive that

they immediately restored it i don't see that happening with x but it's only been a day

uh what will elon do well he doesn't look like he's gonna cave he's just gonna say goodbye to

brazil didn't he say that

he obeys all local laws isn't that he does say that he said before that he says a lot of things

free speech like as long as it obeys the laws but now he's just like this those laws are unlawful

so i'm not you can't you can't do that uh well i guess you can but this is what happens um someone

said that you they're in the find out phase uh of what you start around and find out what you're

talking about yeah yeah they are both the impact there seems to be a lot of kind of similarity

between what dorav's happening to dorav although elon

has not been arrested but there is in both cases large nation states want to control these

platforms and i just it's i'm just concerned that some of this is just governments trying to

pierce the privacy protections of encryption on the other hand i think a government has every

right if a platform kind of is knows there's a lot of child porn going on and they're not really

doing anything about it and they're not responding to subpoenas about it which could be what's

happening at telegram

then i can understand why a government would say well get in here you need to explain yourself and

you need to start cooperating uh brazil is going to fine uh x uh 50 000 rice each day that's 8 900

oh no i'm sorry i'm sorry that's for people using vpns to get on x in brazilians who get

so if you're brazilian you say no no i'm going to use a vpn so i can access x 8 900 a day fine

wow basically uh the court says we don't want anybody using it

that's pretty extreme in fact the ap says some legal experts question the grounds for that

decision and how it would be enforced others suggested the move was authoritarian

yeah it's a flex of power there i think he's taking to the extreme because he doesn't like

he doesn't like elon you know and the fact that he's pushing back obviously like

you know, like Wes was saying, like Elon did these things in India and Australia, he blocked,

he took down content that the government didn't like. And now Brazil comes along and they don't

like something that they want to take it down and he won't do it. So, you know, they thought,

why don't we just turn the big knob? They're also going to go after the assets of SpaceX

because if they can't get the assets of X, they can go after the assets of

Elon's other companies. That is, again, that's a, it seems to me a bridge too far. It's,

yeah, it's the same guy who founded both and runs both, but it's not the same company.

Sounds like when you get into an accident, it's personal.

Right. But those are our rules in the US. Those are the rules in other parts of the world.

Yes.

Right. So he, if the other, other places, they can definitely reach through to your other entities

and get your stuff. But, you know, and it's funny because we want to apply our rules,

but then yet be global. And that's the problem.

I was thinking it's like, it's car. It's like,

a car wreck when you're like a three car wreck car one gets hit by car two because

car twos get hits by car three and it rams into car one. You sue the person who hit you,

even though it wasn't their direct fault. And then they have to recover from the person

that caused the harm that caused the whole chain of events. So you take SpaceX's money

and then say, okay, we'll get it from Elon because he's.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Elon is also in trouble.

Uh, or was in trouble for using, uh, his platform to promote Doge coin. But the, you know,

the courts have said, no, get this, this is ridiculous. So Elon Musk and Tesla were being sued.

The claim was they pumped up the price of Doge coin into a $258 billion pyramid scheme.

Investors who lost tens of thousands of dollars investing in what was a mean token. Let's face it.

Doge coin.

Doge coin really, uh, faulted Musk for promoting it to his millions of followers on Twitter with

statements like one word Doge causing it to rise. He then said he'd accept Tesla would accept Doge

coin as payment, which it never did. I don't think. Uh, and he posted this, uh, tweet, baby Doge,

do, do, do, do, do, do baby Doge, do, do, do, do. I guess that's baby shark to the tune of baby shark,

which I, I will not sing.

A New York judge on Thursday dismissed the claims finding that Musk's

statements promoting Doge coin were aspirational rather than factual and susceptible to being

falsified and that no reasonable investor could rely upon them.

Yeah, it's clear. Musk works for himself. He's got idealistic world views,

but you know, you shouldn't be as a shareholder follow him, right? Like he work, you know, he,

he wants to make money himself. He doesn't want to make you money. He's going to be,

you know, just be a fellow. Yeah. He's going to make money himself. Like I said before,

he's not doing this to make money. He's doing this to make money. He's not.

I just want to say, I do think it's funny, but you know, with great power comes great

responsibility. Things you say could have impact. And I think this is what happened. I mean, it's

just a, it's kind of a joke, actually. So he touted Doge coin for months in may of 2021. After doing

that, he appeared on Saturday night live.

it lost 20 billion dollars in market value um i think the judge probably rightly said hey

it's on you if you believed any of this hype it's on you i don't like elon musk personally

but not that i know him personally but um i think this was the right call i mean he's he's allowed

to have things he likes he's allowed to say that he likes those things uh he there's i haven't

the edge though right but did he say like everyone should buy this or like this is

yeah but i think you're right he was just being funny he wasn't yeah yeah yeah he likes it he

thought it was funny he likes the little dog maybe and so yeah he's a goof yeah and so i don't see

anything criminal with him just saying i really like this thing yeah like uh doc rock could say

i really like this r1 it's amazing um and and does that make him

liable if someone else buys it i don't think it's a good point yeah and it's and you're right

about that and i i think one of the things that's absolutely hilarious at this point

is when people make a bad purchasing decision and they try to blame somebody else because they

bought it i'm like yo that's kind of on you so to coin a phrase from dr drew stupid people going

stupid you know and i i don't i don't fault the person who made the recommendation i fault the

person who took a risk without fully understanding what the risk is and seeing if they were malleable

to if that failed i'm okay with losing this money and then going to the courts when they did lose

money saying hey no fair right that's any investment is that unless you are completely

completely like bamboozled you know like um through some weird stakes in the university

that's a different story but like if you took a risk on your own that's so i guess these two

stories are related in the sense that what is the responsibility of somebody like pavel dorov or

elon musk they own a platform what is their response do they have a higher responsibility

or can they just act in the case of elon like a goofball i don't know pavel dorov is a little

strange but uh that's not illegal do we want to defend these guys defend the law just follow

the law there you go and then do whatever you there and it sounds i mean like these are these

are going through this the cycles those people follow the law get arrested or they lose their

business or whatever right you don't you don't get to just do whatever you want all of the time

just just most of the time when you're rich uh they've tried to use the law to protect you in

other ways right like trust me like a lot of people of this elk have sued people when they

thought it was going to work for them and then have completely ducked the law and then they've

got suits when they thought it was going to work for them so you don't get to play both sides of

the law either you are the law straight through all the way through or you're not period point

blank you're watching a very special edition of this week in tech it's special because I'm not

going to be here next week I'm going on vacation for a couple of weeks I'm looking forward to

seeing a bunch of a bunch of you um next Saturday uh in New York City we're going to do a little

meet up in

Bryant Park which might have been a mistake because I hear that there's rain in the forecast

I just thought it'd be fun to do it outside New York it's either 100 degrees or it's pouring rain

so either way it might be a little challenging but the plan is to meet up in Bryant Park uh

September 7th 3 p.m for a couple of hours and then Joe in our our club is going to lead us all

on a photo walk starting at Grand Central Station and ending time permitting at the oculus during

the

golden hour it should be a lot of fun if it rains I don't know what should I do should I just say

bring an umbrella I guess I there's no way I can get the word out fast enough if it rains to say

okay we're gonna move it somewhere I'll be standing there I'll be a little soggy if it

rains I'll be a little soggy so what I'll wear a hat we'll see you in Bryant Park uh on on Saturday

uh I will be off for uh two weeks and then I'll be back

on September 22nd for this week in tech so just a little little vacation at the end of the summer

our show today brought to you by oh our good friends at Bitwarden the password manager I

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them so much for their support of this week in tech um let's see what else is go this was sad

for me and I don't know uh I guess probably all you guys read a non-tech for you oh yeah right oh

uh it was the site to go to if you wanted to know if a chip uh it really did what it said it would do

if you want to know if performance was there they were the geekiest of the geek sites but like so

many sites uh these days they're saying goodbye 27 years super bummed about this one me too now

a non-shimpy who founded it when he was a kid he was like a high schooler uh left some years ago I

was a little disappointed when this happened

to go to work for Intel and it so often happens with people who uh you know leave their bylines

behind they just disappear I don't know what he's I don't know what anon's up to I don't know what

he's doing um this this the site continued to run for some time um in fact for more than a decade

under one of its founders Ryan Smith but I think along with a lot of other um ad supported websites

it's just been struggling it's owned by a future which will be keeping the non-tech website uh and

and its existing articles alive indefinitely so that's a relief that's good now all that content

will be will survive the old content but there will be no new articles added to a non-tech there's

not a lot of sites that bring the geek data to the masses no like I feel like this is one of the one

reliable and they knew how to do benchmarks and this is one of the problems I see is a lot of the

mainstream sites do benchmarks but they don't know what they're doing and uh and they do and they're

really not useful benchmarks but Anand was always really deep in their tech coverage and really

really understood stuff future boat bought both Anand and Tom's Hardware and they're going to

continue Tom's Hardware it's my guess that that's a consolidation um of the two so back in the early

days uh I worked for AMD uh I was a product development engineer and so that's where I met

Stacy by the way yeah that's when I met you was you were still at AMD yeah yeah uh and so that's

we had a lot of the technical press there just to make sure that they understood the ins and outs

the guts and how things were put together why they work the way they did and made them make sure they

were connected to the engineers make sure they were connected to our future plans because they

were that from the technical standpoint that it was expressed like very clearly to the audience

out there just stealing the things of their concerns and the voice of the people who read

their publications but those types that the work that was involved in that was very labor intensive

to do the benchmarking to do the follow-ups to really fact check stories and it made it harder

and harder to compete with

some of the post Mills where there are just articles after articles just released multiple

times a day to get ads and get the views and to rack up some of the the focus and the eyeballs

um and so slowly the hard work became less valued from that perspective because they weren't able to

capture the attention of the the people who are looking for that information it was some of the

easier articles some of the rumor Mills some of the

you know just photos and leaks and stuff like that where people were uh more appealed to the the

general public than the the extreme niche geek that really wanted that information and I miss

that I love those articles it let me just like that's where I would learn to like solder resistors

on uh scuzzy cards and to make them raid cards uh and like those type of things I don't think people

do anymore and it's just like I miss it and it's the end of error and I I loved all the people who

work there as well

yeah I mean remember when the M1 came out the first time Anand came back and actually wrote

an article about it and it was like the level of quality that he brought back which just made

me realize why I used to go back to that site yeah here's a picture of Anand back in the day

when he first started a non-tech he out of his bedroom he was a high school kid some isa slots

on that thing this is an old yeah this is an old motherboard um one of the things Anand has been

kind of outspoken about uh he was when he left 10 years ago to go to Intel and uh his successor uh

Ryan Smith also writes about it and it's even still on the about page uh at a non-tech is the

what he called the cablefication or cable TVification of technology coverage the the

slant towards sensationalism um and and really kind of lower lower quality link Beatty uh

vehicles um the the original uh statement from Anand is actually on the about page at a non-tech

and I hope it will stay up um for forever I think this is part of what killed a non-tech

is the advertisers who uh in the past might have been advertised on a non-tech have moved over to

forgive me doc but YouTubers who are really much more sensationalistic and they draw

many

many more eyeballs as a result uh but I don't know if their content is as high quality certainly not

as detailed and geeky this is the conversation I'm having in the chat right now everybody loves

Linus Linus uh I'll be mean and I'll say it Linus is click baby as all get and he didn't he's gotten

more so over time I mean 100 it wasn't always that way it was much more like it in the early

days but this is the problem with YouTube it puts prep to succeed on YouTube

you have to almost do the thumbnails and the thing and the sensational headline and I think

it's unfortunate that is it he figured out to uh Paul's point he figured out if

I become more entertaining and more click Beatty and more abrasive and all of the above

and even during the time frame I want to call it about maybe eight years ago where it was um he saw

Lou

Come up with that weird if one of the first

Sort of viral gates and how that it worked

I think it was been gate and then from that moment on line is like oh I'm have to go ahead and Apple for like

extra hard and he went into Apple extra hard and he

Exploded and so one of the things that he does which drives me crazy is

telling a bunch of

Let's just say sub 18 year old kids

That these manufacturers are out to get you and charge you a lot for a product

that's not really worth it, but we'll never go in and say the reason why this product is expensive or

What expensive really means like if something doesn't match your value proposition?

It doesn't matter value proposition like me

I'm never going to buy certain things because it's not it doesn't match my value proposition on the other hand

I'll buy a

$2,500 bottle of whiskey

Because it matches a value proposition and most people think that's crazy like why it all tastes like Jack Daniels

No, it doesn't not to me. I'm a whiskey connoisseur

So it's when you make a blanket statement like oh everything somebody makes is expensive

just to cause hassle or

Just make up things that aren't true

You know

It's just it drives me crazy and I I really really am appalled that what happened in Linus because I used to think he was

One of the best in the business. Yeah

and there are people like

Marques Brownlee who I think has succeeded by providing quality

He's not it's he's never done the kind of in-depth stuff a non-tech

Did but he's I mean, he's I think Oprah. I just saw him in a picture with Oprah. I

Think he's on his way to stardom

But I feel like they're I mean this is I guess why we still exist there needs to be

at least some content that is just kind of

Unapologetically geeky and hardcore and we're not as hardcore as a non-tech was

but we certainly referred to a non-tech all the time and we had those standards and I

I've never been accused of doing link bait I do three-hour shows that have no real

theme or content

But I think we're geeks right and we and we talk to geeks in about geeks and from a geek point of view without trying to

pander to an audience

right and i think that's what a non-tech was and yeah it brings a level of credibility

and i think that's what people want yeah and being able to discuss this from a people

go ahead i was gonna say being able to discuss this from a deeper level from a critical level

um and from a from people with deep technical knowledge and experience i think that's what

where twit signs shines is because right the people who know this stuff are on this podcast

on this show um where someone who's running like a content mill they read a press release

or read like a pr and and or see a media like marketing sheet and then they come up with an

opinion so they put it out but so there's a there you cannot replicate the base of knowledge the

years sometimes some of us decades of experience to be able to see this through a lens where

you understand everything that that led up to that point and realizing

what the trade-offs are and what the advantages could be and you don't do that without uh you

don't have that knowledge without having the experience behind what are what are there must

be youtube channels that carry continue to carry this torch though this this you know it's it's

getting harder harder to find okay so one of the one of the biggest misnomers about youtube is

everybody thinks there's some kind of like secret algorithm that controls what everybody sees and

doesn't see and our dear friend renee uh would tell you every time you

want to stick the word algorithm in something replace it with audience what they're really

doing is feeding the audience what they want right that's all the algorithm is really designed for

is to feed the audience because if i can keep your butt watching this particular platform for

a longer time i can serve more ads that's how you run your business so one of the things that

used to be really really handy for sort of algorithm adjusting would be high levels of

engagement so if you make the weird thumbnail and say something that you know is

completely wrong but will start a fight in the comments that's good that was good because it's

going to keep people on that page and so what would happen is while that page is loaded even

if they're not watching the video but they're arguing in the comments there's ads on the side

and those ads are turning over and being flipped or whatever so the computer was reading this data

is like this dude from canada said something stupid about apple and legit has

40 000 people arguing in this i'm serving ads like nobody's business so you get credit for

the clickbait even if it was completely wrong the other thing is he's riling up basically people

between the ages of say 12 and 20 and you know what let's be dead honest their brains aren't

completely formed to make logical decisions yet so there's a lot of what is the word

siloing instantly siloing right if you go into a fight about xbox and playstation oh you're going

to start some stuff and some people never grow out of it like even if they become adult and

they're past it they've developed their allegiance right star wars star trek whatever so anytime you

could make content around something like apple v microsoft we're in the background they're working

hand in hand doing what they need to do to make products right or you know android versus ios

when they're also doing some things together hand in hand in order to make sure that the

global industry strives but you make the kids believe it's a fight they're going to get in

their gang areas they're going to fight they're going to talk a lot of crap and all it does is

just blow up so the linuses of the world and a bunch of other people like him he's not alone

let's just for the people in the comments saying we're bashing Linus I would tell him this stuff

straight to his face number one I'm bigger than him number two he also probably knows what he's

doing he knows exactly what he's doing and he's he's got smart and built an apple show

and he'll go on the apple show himself and bash that but he was smart enough to build an apple

show because he makes a ton of money off of that this is the problem is it's all about making a ton

of money 100 I don't mind people trying to make money and honestly the reason a non-tech is going

away let's be honest is it it's losing money right yes if people were reading it like crazy uh it

would still be here so I understand I mean we are in a we're in a capitalist society you have to make

a living and you have to make a way to make it work it just it makes me sad there must be you can

I share something yes I'm gonna share something Wes um this is a little aside so please bear with

me so you've heard of like what uh the team pixel debacle that happened yeah so Google just to be

clear Google hired a PR agency which then offered pixel phones the pixel 9 to uh YouTubers and

uh but they had a contract that went along with the phone that says you got to feature this in in

and deprecate everything else it's got to be all about pixel and you can't like anything else and

of course that got out and people were very upset and Google said look these aren't reviewers these

are influencers this is a PR company and they and we're not going to do that anymore but I think it's

always happened and yeah the root of that is the companies don't want uh these wild cards they want

to know yeah what is they want positive why do you think they don't invite me to Apple events

anymore and the thing is people with integrity don't go they don't take it um the people who are

like pay me I I'll do it are the the people that then there's a like the FTC where you have to you

have to disclose disclose yeah um which is true unless you're not an American citizen if you're a

Canadian you're not bound by those laws I'm not saying that that it's Canadians blame Canada but

I'm saying if if if people uh there I know personally some companies that specifically go to

uh influencers or people who are in tech to write or give better reviews because they can pay them

without them having to disclose that I don't know this is new right I mean this is always no it's

not new but people don't know that so that when there's saying that well we would disclose it or

we would say they have to by U.S law but if they're not U.S citizens they don't have to say I'm taking

the same in the camera space like in the YouTube camera space some of the top camera guys they all

live just above the line where they don't have to say certain things and so before the team pixel

thing there was the lumix launch from Panasonic and right before that was instant 360. and it's

funny but you are 100 correct if you go through the list of the top camera guys a lot of them live

north of the demarcation line of uh follow the U.S rules

yeah I know look I don't have a problem with somebody who wants to make a living or wants to

become famous or wants to appear on Oprah that's fine that's your choice I just think about users

and consumers event information I hope they understand the difference between an influencer

and an actual journalist that they follow journalists who have Integrity and don't

accept free stuff and that uh I mean they're they're we I think we need reliable reporting

on these

subjects maybe we I guess that's the other thing maybe we don't anymore maybe technology has become

so commonplace so much a part of our lives it's like a toaster you don't really care if the toaster

review website got a free toaster yeah right because it's just a toaster you would see and

so that becomes also the problem because what happens is you got guys so a lot of this how

this started and I can I totally remember it because I've been at this for a long time some

of the very original like gear reviewers on YouTube were

myself and soldier like we predate the Marquez of the world I left and went to Japan and when I

came back Marquez went from being a kid in his basement to like one of the best guys in the

planet which I thought was crazy I was like wow you stepped away too long now you got to play

catch up what happens is some of the guys catch up with Marquez Brownlee I gave that up right you

know we tried to hire him we tried to hire him he was still in school and he's a very sweet guy

really nice guy he said I'm gonna try and make it on my own

brilliant yeah so so back in the days of like you know Patrick Norton and some of the OGs who were in

this game with us there were people who would come on and say oh well the reason why they're

able to do these reviews is because the brands are sitting them these products and then once

that happens people feeling victimized would then say oh this person is a shill for the product and

then then that word became popular most people didn't even know what a real shill is right

or people would say well you know even even okay you have always been fair but people people would

pick at you and be like oh the reason why Leo said something bad about it but this time is because

Apple would let him come to the event you never really changed your position if you didn't like

it you didn't like it if you liked it you liked it you never played hate against Apple because

they somehow blocked you from an event which is probably one person that was mad about something

I don't I don't even care I make it's mostly you know what I'm saying

I don't care and I always buy every everything I review I buy because I don't mostly not not out

of some holier than thou thing but just because I don't want to be bugged by PR people saying where's

our review why didn't you like that any of that stuff you know I just buy it plus it also gives

you I think the real world experience when you plunk down your own money for a product you

definitely have a slightly more skin in the game than if somebody sent it to you right and it's

hard to do a review when you have something foreign

for two weeks by the way I think uh I have to give credit uh to uh let's see wizardling in our club

to a Discord who came up with the real reason a non-tech is no longer this is the Venn diagram

of a non-tech users and ad block users and of course it's an exact match uh yes but that's

something to remember you know a lot of people I use that block we all use that block probably

everybody who watches this show uses that block but that's another reason why

you know and pretty flat force this guy says something says something which I mentioned on

the show a couple weeks back long before YouTube all of the stuff that we're talking about happened

in the magazine world oh sure did it sure did you remember like in bike magazines stereo magazines

you just never knew if that review was legit and you kind of knew that right you kind of knew that

the the HP printer would come out in Byte magazine or computer shopper right next to three full page

I I have some experience in this I will defend Byte and and the Ziff Davis Publications PC magazine

and computer shop they really did try to separate uh church and state I mean there was definitely a

wall between sales in fact I remember at Tech TV when we were owned by Ziff Davis we were going to

have a guy from MIT on named bunny Wong who had hacked the original Xbox bunny had figured out

a chip this is really a cool hack a daughter chip you could put on the Xbox I can't remember why you

want to hack it I guess to bypass DRM I don't know but Microsoft was furious and said we will

yank all our advertising if you put this guy on and do an interview and show this chip and to

their credit the management at Ziff Davis who ran the channel said don't worry about that they'll

come back do the bit their lawyers got involved everybody got involved and said no no no editorial

integrity do the interview we did the interview Microsoft came back

you know it was a just it was an empty threat but so companies do try to control the news cycle

but a good reliable authoritative in the old days anyway big enough magazine could ignore that little

guys this is the problem if you're an individual YouTuber it's a lot harder to say oh I'm gonna lose

all my ads so that's the problem you don't have this big edifice uh this powerful edifice behind

you protecting you and you're and

and maybe you don't even know and care about things like that hey I'm gonna get a free Tonka

truck I love Tonka trucks there's nothing better than a Tonka truck but also if they back up a

truck of cash saying we'll give you 20 grand to give us a positive uh-huh be like okay who's gonna

say no to that right yeah whereas when I worked it's dumb not to when I worked at ZD uh Jim

ladderback who was our editorial director uh and now he's at VidCon and he's a big influencer and

in fact went to the White House uh to at the Creator Summit but Jim at the time was our editorial

director and he we had a strict policy that you can't accept stuff you can't go to you can't even

take a dinner from people and he would God bless him he went over all around the set at ZDTV and

put tape over all the company logos so there'd be no implicit endorsement of Samsung or Zenith

or whatever the hell kinds of TVs we were using uh he really cared about this stuff

I think that's the that's kind of a journalistic tradition that is now I think uh history I had

dinner with Jim back in in April we were in Vegas you know and so to your point and and I I think

this is the part that's hard I will always feel a little bit irritated because when I left Apple

I went to go work at AOL at TUAW to write articles for TUAW and one of the things I did was got rid

of all my Apple stock at like a hundred that's it that's it that's it that's it that's it that's it

another one yeah because as as a quote unquote journalist I'm not supposed to have Apple stock

while I'm writing on at that time one of the biggest Apple blogs I know a whole bunch of

people that didn't do that and soon after I got rid of everything at 128 it shot to like 700 and

something so you know like imagine what happens if I wanted to not be that guy what if I wanted

to try to control and manipulate and you know there's people that do it so I don't know like

and and just for everybody who's defending Linus in the chat it's his channel he could do whatever

the heck he wants I'm gonna always think that he purposely fans flames and click baits because it

works and the minute it stops working he'll stop doing it and I can't to do that so that's his

right what happens and I just hope the consumers understand the difference and that there is

somewhere like an on tech in the world where they can go and get reliable unbiased uh information

because that was really useful by the way uh in case you're curious

Brownlee will appear on an ABC special about AI uh Oprah is going to be hosting this and Sam Altman

will be on it September 12th it's called AI and the future of us uh Sam Altman who of course is

the founder and CEO of open AI maybe has a little bit of a conflict of interest on this anyway we'll

explain the fundamentals of AI uh Bill Gates will be on he'll talk about uh

the changes AI may bring to education health care and other sectors FBI director Christopher Ray will

be on talk about what AI does for law enforcement and National Security and then YouTube creator and

technologist Marquez Brownlee will showcase existing products with AI already embedded

um it's going to be a dumb dumb show I'm just he's going to be a fan of Wesley's face I'm just

I'm just enjoying watching Wesley's face his reality I'm just enjoying watching Wesley's face his reality I'm just enjoying watching Wesley's face his reality I'm just enjoying watching Wesley's face his reality I'm just enjoying watching Wesley's face his reality

I'm just enjoying watching Wesley's face his reality I'm just enjoying watching Wesley's face his reality reactions to that a whole entire

reactions to that a whole entire conversation just but this is my problem is that

the vast majority of people this is the information they're going to get about AI yeah it's

yeah super cringe AI and the future of us and of course the implication is what is the future of

humanity in a world where this is for a general audience right these are for normies right it's

how how are you going to how are these people going to play to that audience ABC prime time

yeah it's just you know I used to do uh kind of what Marquez is doing I used to do for live with

Regis and Kelly oh God I remember those yeah I did that for years and it's TV it's dopey you

know it's not a way to learn about anything it's uh TV take it from me I've done a lot of it it's

all about pictures

keeping your glue to the TV and uh it's not about you know you could can you imagine a non-tech on TV

knowing that the audience is not going to know who the heck these people are isn't the right Tech TV

it's not what Tech TV was actually oh my God and I don't think we ever had him but no we must have

had an odd on tech we did we had him on Tech TV before before Spectrum became Spectrum it used to

be oceanic TV

island oceanic and macaw i had a weird kind of like box that came with the tivo or whatever that

got me access to the og leo laporte show and i remember complaining to at that time uh oceanic

cable like we need to get zdtv i forgot what that service was called that we used to get it in

but they never ended up making it out of the you know early phase well but after having tech tv and

even let's take it back to uh what is it three two one contact is that right no that's not it

is that it i don't know what was the show before that's pbs yeah it was on it was on tlc you were

on a tlc show now i can't remember where me no i was on it with with soledad o'brien oh the site

yeah i got the sign over here yeah yeah there you go yeah there you go that was msnb

mad at my cable company that i would call them every day and be like get zdtv get zdt

get zdtv there are there are plenty of people who at the time said oh you're such a poser you're a

tv guy you know anything about technology and blah blah blah i'm used to that that's fine and you

know what we're saying the same thing about me that we're saying now about linus i have no problem

with somebody pursuing their career in any way they want to i just want people to have access

to good content reliable content with integrity

if that if they need such a thing maybe they don't need it right and when you have a strong

opinion about something all i'm saying is delineate it as this is my opinion you do your

own research that's the only line that anybody needs to add and you could be completely anti

because i will always say the boston celtics is the best basketball team in the freaking planet

and two years from now when we're back at the bottom i'm still going to say that in all delusion

but i will always point to the banners look at the banners player look at the banners that's the future

of us what's the future of the knicks that's what i want to know oh i'm sorry that's just trash no i

don't care i'm just kidding uh that that my friends is doc rock uh he uh bleeds uh irish green oh look

at that i wouldn't have picked you for a celtic celtics fan for some reason i don't know why man

all the way since i was a wee lad yeah i was a red sox fan i grew up in providence and i guess

i would have been a celtics fan also a hardcore red sox fan but then i am related to dennis

oil boy dennis who oil can boyd oh dennis oil cam boyd oh well that's a fish of a different color

thank you doctor for being here

why is that horse purple also lou maresca from this week in enterprise tech it's the

world champion celtics by the way even though lou you might well you're in new england yeah

since i was a kid as well yeah of course thank you great to have you and wesley faulkner we don't

know what team he's on are you a sport fan no not really i used to watch tennis religiously but not

anymore i uh i watched a very exciting formula one race this morning uh is that a sport i guess

it is incidentally our 1000th episode of twit is coming in five episodes this is 995 and uh we are

we've got patrick norton lined up so that'll be fun he was on the original episode uh david prager

robert heron i'm working on and kevin rose can't make it uh but he'll i'm sure send us a little a

little greeting but you know do have we heard from robert or uh or uh david not yet to put the

pressure on old school yeah well they were on episode one was kevin rose uh robert heron and

patrick norton on episode one uh and so filling in

it'll be david prager was also many many of the early episodes that's coming up in five

count them five episodes our show this week brought to you by net suite the less your business this is

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so much for supporting uh this week in tech we thank you supporting us by going to net suite

dot com slash twit on we go with the show um actually kind of ran out of news

let me see let's find let's find some more uh news oh did you uh listen to cereals

podcast news big podcast news you remember uh adnan saeed who was uh they said i was

i think falsely accused of the murder of his girlfriend apparently the court listened

released him a few years ago now maryland's supreme court has upheld an appellate court's

decision to reinstate his conviction not because of any new evidence not because uh

there was any reason to think that he did do it but because the

murder victim's family didn't get adequate notice about the hearing so now they're going to do it

all again now besides free right now he had spent 23 years in prison for the murder of his former

high school girlfriend and i think i didn't listen to cereal but i think those who did said

it made a pretty strong case compelling case that he was unjustly convicted and in fact his uh his

conviction was overturned because apparently there was exculpatory evidence that somebody

else might have committed the crime and that evidence had not been offered to his defense

and was not raised in court so that's why uh he was released um after new information about two

possible alternative uh subjects uh september 2022 he was released he's still out of prison

prosecutors decided to drop all cases against him however the brother of the victim said hey

i didn't get i only got three days notice

i couldn't come and that violates a maryland victim's right law and so the courts had to uh

had to say well we got to do this all over again that's bananas it's kind of bananas but that's

not his fault though right no no nothing he did wrong yeah um i did you did anybody listen to

cereal i didn't yes okay was it convincing did he get 100 yeah yeah it was definitely in the

reasonable doubt

space right right right and well the thing about cereal for me and why i listened to it at the time

i think i started listening to it when it was about episode three because i all of a sudden

heard all of my muggles talking about podcasts and i'm like they're like oh do you still do

podcasts and i'm like yeah and they're like oh well there's this new podcast it's really really

good it's about murder i was like nobody does podcasts about murder stuff we only talk about

tech or sports or comedy or news yeah so that was the first thing i was like oh my god this is a

podcast like podcast for normies and i heard all kind of random people who i knew had nothing

about podcasts other than the fact that they knew that i did them start listening to podcasts i was

like what is this and once you start listening to it you kind of got into it and also i kind of grew

up in the neighborhood so i i understood some of the stuff they were talking about and yeah it was

just that the reason why to me it's tech is because it really did launch this second phase of

making podcasts i hate to give all the credit but it kind of almost deserves all the credit

for your mama listening to podcasts let's put it that way i think a lot of people rightly i think

consider podcasting it became mainstream after because of cereal first podcast i think that got

more than a million downloads per episode uh it got a lot of attention you might say the only bad

thing that came came out of it was the uh the rise of the true crime podcast which pretty much

dominates now that's almost all you've got even those are even as as inundated as they are they're

everywhere so many cases have been relooked that's true a whole bunch of innocent people

got out of jail because people get railroaded um by uh com stats right which is the conviction

stats that police are always trying to win so the american look good

comstats cause illegal people to do a whole bunch of dumb stuff and arrest people that don't

deserve to be in jail so the innocence project and all of the true crime podcasts have either

solved these crimes and found the the the murderers or whomever whatever they did and

they've also released a bunch of people that didn't deserve to be in jail so yeah i don't

think there's anything wrong with it it's a good genre uh i think comedy podcasts have have lasted

longer and are probably another reason podcasting is uh still big today the tech podcast we dominated

in the early 90s and the early 90s and the early 90s and the early 90s and the early 90s and the

early days but uh uh you know i mean that's you you know the early adopters were into tech

and they had ipods and they knew how to figure out how to get their ipod connected to the computer

so they could download a show and put it on their ipod so they could listen to it in their car

that was a special audience that was way back when actually it's timely because this believe

it or not is the 20th anniversary this month is the 20th anniversary of the birth of podcasting

well um i think

uh i mean you could say there were earlier shows that certainly i offered my radio show for

download on the internet but what made podcasting podcasting was the idea of putting uh binary files

in rss feeds originally when rss was created it was a way of following your favorite blogs

and every blog would have an rss a really simple syndication feed and you would subscribe to it

in something called a podcasting podcasting podcasting podcasting podcasting podcasting podcasting

called an rss reader all these this sounds so old hat now but your rss reader would then let you

know there's a new post from your favorite uh blogger uh when dave weiner i think it was adam

curry actually former mtv uh vj and now the host of a kind of uh crazy conspiracy podcast with my

old friend john c devorek called no agenda uh curry said to weiner hey we should have a way

to not only have the rss's feed say there's a

new new article but what if we could do it there's a new audio file or we could you know

and uh and weiner said okay he did that um in fact he did it in 2001 so yeah he played a grateful

dead album basically in 2001 but but curry made him revisit it because of an update that had

happened with rss that's right so the the first i became aware of uh podcasting i would

say it was it really uh the first podcasts were in september 2004 but um that's when i potter x

uh race lakinski's uh early attempt to make a a program dedicated specifically to downloading

podcasts was created um i potter came out in september 2004 i got a phone call in late

september 2004 from a kid named matt bischoff who said hey i i know you

you can download your shows on on the web but what would you ever think about making a podcast

and i said what's a podcast and he explained oh you just make an rss feed and then so i did so our

first uh my first podcast was the tech guy show and that was in october 2004 uh so i think i i

will date back the beginning of podcasting for real as at least the fall of 20 years ago which

is kind of a kind of amazing um

pioneer yeah i went down a rabbit hole and season one of serial was 2014 so that's the thing it was

10 years later that it became mainstream and then but i thought it was like um a pandemic thing

where i was listening during the pandemic and i was and so i had to look it up i was like i thought

i'd listen to it during like covid and uh no apparently it's i'm the my whole time is warped

i thought everyone was into podcasts back then but

you know i'm not sure i'm not sure i'm not sure i'm not sure i'm not sure i'm not sure i'm not sure

yeah it's been 10 years and this is really crazy how that just changed everything like

literally you brought a whole bunch of people to it and so when serial was over that's when

people were like well what else can we listen to yeah and there was no more of the true crime type

of thing but serial also did one other major thing it brought not necessarily good it brought

the major networks into podcasting right so about a year after serial you had comedy central

starting a podcast network you had iheart starting a podcast network you had all these other

these you know everybody's doing it yeah the pain in the butt guys made it into it

let's put it that way so the first time podcasting was mentioned on a podcast was

the evil genius chronicles dave slusher mentioned the word september 18th 2004

so yeah he was trying to come up with the name for basically what was what you were doing

prior and even like sean king guys were doing prior which was these web shows right that you

know people were doing on their website many years before that long time ago yeah even i was doing

shoutcast shoutcast and ice cast back in the day right right and so he was like what are we going

to call these guys pirate radio if it's not really a broadcast and people are going to take these

things and put them into these little pods and then the ipod had just sort of come out he goes

well maybe we'll call it podcast whatever and somebody was like i like that and that was the

word

that stuck because theoretically podcasts it will not theoretically 100 podcasts existed long before

the ipod right because i remember my creative labs 300 rio is that what it called real 300

yeah diamond rio that was my first podcast appliance the diamond that was my first podcast

appliance yeah i had active sync that would sync it up to my pda back in the day yes yes put them

on to the to trio i had a trio at that time a handspring trio i used to put it on there and

listen and the other thing i just thought about recently when the apple tv came out in 2009 the

big flat you know like cheesecake box size one which basically mac mini size i only bought that

because the only video podcast i wanted to see at the time was leo and um patrick norton and roger

and they were the only video podcast at that time that were worth getting and so you had just made

i don't even remember what was that 2000

2009 because i still have that and i bet you if i plugged it in and turn it on

it would be like three that's pretty funny yeah uh i don't know what you call what we do anymore

because of video and youtube and and all of that i it certainly has nothing to do with the ipod

in fact i doubt anybody listens to podcasts on an ipod anymore doc searles began keeping track

you remember doc from uh floss weekly he began keeping track of how many hits google found

for the world for the word podcast his first search was late september 2004 24 results

uh on october 1st 2004 there were 2750 just a few days later the number continued to double

every few days i don't know if you search for the word podcast on google today it's going to

be millions right and there are probably more than a million podcasts currently in the uh in the world

um i'm on two personally yeah yeah there you go i i speak at podcast movement um every year the one

that just happened in dc last week i couldn't go to because i was in japan living it up but um it's

funny i see people that have been there from the very beginning and then i see all the brand new

people who are bright-eyed and bushy tail but you know the revolution the revolution happened this

year when youtube is now focusing on podcasts and i've been saying this for about a year and i've been

doing this for about three years now and it's finally starting to happen and of course everybody's

like well they don't have rss feed yet i'm like the modern world doesn't need rss nobody nobody

has rss readers what do you need nobody really knows what's going on so but youtube now um

basically having a podcast tab it is going to be the game changer because i think youtube and

spotify oh youtube is the largest oh the spotify to youtube disparity number is almost hilarious um

youtube

is the largest streaming platform in the planet if you combine disney netflix hulu uh the hulu

triumvirate right so which is espn and all of that and you go down online they still outcast

them by a long time so what do i so i go to youtube.com and then click the podcast button

is that their podcast feed yeah yeah oh look there we are there you are so hey hi hi me any show

like say you have something on your youtube channel that you do um let's say lou is talking

about you know how people can get into ui design these are the best colleges whatever and he makes

a series of say 12 videos about how to get into ui ux you take that make it a playlist of that

playlist you check podcast give it a 3 000 by 3 000 graphic and a description and now it is a

youtube podcast i guess that's what we're doing automatically convert the audio side and yeah

it's a game changer because 2.8 billion

users every tv sold in the planet for about the last 10 years has a youtube button there is no

pocket cast button wow or apple podcast but i remember every tv on the planet has a youtube

button so race lakinski who wrote that first uh podcasting program ipod in 2004 i remember sitting

next to him uh at mac world uh in 2005 a year later when steve jobs announced that it was going

to add podcasting to itunes

and talk about a guy who was sherlocked in like in a minute that was it that was it for ipotter it

was gone and ray knew it and his face just fell um and i i think even then i said boy apple adding

podcasting is both the best thing and the worst thing that could happen to podcasting it's nothing

compared to youtube adding podcasting talk about blurring the line what is podcasting anymore is it

a show that's on the internet right

well basically because i have this conversation basically every day um the the actual terminology

somewhat doesn't matter because there's we started out with narrowcast and then we went to

widecast and then we went to broadcasts and then we went to multicast and yeah netcast you love for

the people that's right this is by the way why i wanted to call them netcasts because they had

nothing to do with the ipad they were they were broadcasts on the internet but nobody nobody

there was no take up correct and and so now if you just have a show that if you just if you just

have a show it's just a show put out that's all like in in a manner where people can digest it

seasonal or not and it's on a sort of consistent basis you can make it a podcast or a broadcast

yeah that's all it is so yeah flu there's your uh everybody's posting their first podcast

uh tool there's your compact pocket pc i love that thing dude i love that

i still have that thing got mine yeah really yeah and you press the button and it syncs up

and then you get with a foldable keyboard it was awesome yeah ipac i love the ipad the ipac

oh all of you all of you just got the ipac well this must have been a kind of critical invention

in the world was that when it was had a had a windows c on yeah i had a dell axion though

similar yeah similar probably the same it wouldn't just see on it it had the little uh stylus it was

awesome there was there was didn't come back

make one with pie with palm on it palm pilot yeah it did yeah because i remember i played

bejeweled so much on it because it had a stylus and i used the sounds that there were scratches

on the glass horizontal and vertical scratches from all the bejeweled all the swiping all the

swiping uh here is uh dissolving the pixels posted their creative zen micro this was probably a very

popular platform that's one of the very first apps ever created by

these two guys from merrimack county massachusetts ken and glenn aspersley was a palm app that they

say well we need a name for the company and they named it ecam there was nothing camera involved

in it at the time oh my god you're kidding 1999 it's not everyone thinks it's new because of what

we do now but they started with a palm app way way way well you know what that's right i remember

that and i used ecam to copy files off my uh iphone as well right yep iphone explorer i never

remember now i think that that makes sense they were doing the they were doing the good the google

thing or just pick some random they knew where they were headed that's why it's so crazy eat

the oligarchs nomad this was a creative labs uh podcast player the nomad i loaded my mp3s on

minidiscs that's really on the sony minidiscs yeah i have i have my minidisc right here

wow okay so we're all the same age because i have a sony minidiscs

minidisc guy too my player recently died i feel like you would have a minidisc i have a whole

bunch of what the hell my tracks from my my days of making an album back when i wanted to be an

elite rapper and they're here to find my player just died and i can't listen to none oh you got

to get to know a pretty fly for a sci-fi guy he's got his uh sony walkman disc player the net md

minidisc that's super funny

i've been i've been like saving these i'm like oh sony kept this like sony kept that format alive

for far longer than any should ever i'm surprised i'm surprised how accessible that was for data

storage you know at one point there was um side quest made a minidisc drive that you can actually

store data with it on here p hall still has his diamond oh rio oh what's that what is that you

got wes there it is there's your minidisc player wow see mine's in a box somewhere

more in the attic like you guys are you got it right there someday archaeologists are going to

dig up all those minidiscs and say gee i wish we had a way to play them

minidiscs were in that critical period of time right before cd burners became big accessible

right yeah how how much could you they were analog right or were they digital no digital

time it was like 60 minutes or 74 60 minutes 74 minutes is the majority of the ones that i have

so they

74 and 80 but the thing is you had to burn them real time so that was you have to record that

sucked yeah it was like a tape but it was like a cd yeah it was a tape it was it was i used the

digital out on my sound on my sound blaster uh in order to uh load it onto the digital in into

and the reason why i liked minidisc better than anything else at the particular time

because somebody posted one earlier the uh old yellow sony that stopped the cd

from skipping like nothing sucked more than having your cd scared while you're trying to do something

and so walkman was the early walkman which i remember spending a ridiculous amount of money

for skipped like at the drop of a hat i mean the disc man the disc man the the disc the disc man

oh the walkman was cassettes that's right the discman yeah skipped like crazy here's a diamond

rio p hall still or is it fall still has it most people like the uh the minidisc because i saw some

as they had 24-bit recording yep so i remember djs who used mini discs would come with a big

box of discs yeah yeah uh i guess tommy that's my deck that just died tommy posted a picture of the

of the uh player the sony player like that i had this one top digital yes this is a digital there

were twins there was so i went from that which we recorded on in the music studio to copy to

me this and there was a twin set and so the mini disc part of that set died oh well somebody's

found i have to go get my zune or something now on ebay just 299 for the denon dn m99 ir professional

md mini disc player working doc i think i'd snap that up if i remember that i can't believe you

just made me think of that the watermelon zune was a thing it was like green and like look at it like

pink accent

it's oh my god we have just had a completely spontaneous trip down memory lane

for no apparent oh i know why because this is the 20th anniversary of podcasting that's why

before there was a podcast ipod shuffle it's the story of little pieces of my friends

the story of us let's take a little break more to come with our great panels lou maresca from uh

formerly of this weekend enterprise tech but he's still principal engineering manager

at microsoft yes uh also great to have wesley faulkner uh wesley83.com are you looking for

work or do you have a job and just can't talk about it well right now i'm just surviving on

my only fans account um but hey i'll subscribe to that but yeah i i'm uh i'm currently on the market

so if you're looking to hire yeah how can people get a hold of you if they want to hire you

wesley83.com there's a uh contact form that i just set up this morning uh if you scroll all the way to

the bottom uh i'm wesley i will vouch for this guy you know this guy is uh great in developer

relations in marketing uh and just communication uh i'm a huge fan of wesley faulkner so hire him

thank you hire him does a geography matter or you will you travel no because i only take remote jobs

so ah yeah nowadays i've been i don't know why anybody would do anything less right why go to

an office

anymore

yeah

the end of the end of the line for offices we none of our employees burke was asking me hey

do you ever want me to come and see you it's not logical um no like there's studies that are out

there saying like they're the the it's just a power grab where companies just want they just

want to keep it they want to watch you yeah but there are no studies saying that it makes you

more effective there was actually a spike during uh when when it when most people went remote

during covid and productivity went up it went up so high and they started hiring more people

and then they're saying well if productivity is this high we can start firing people and so then

the layoffs happened because they didn't need to hire more people because the productivity of each

individual person was pretty high and then then they're like oh now we want you to come into the

office and then so then people started leaving and now things are just a mess into chaos it's a mess

we're in a place of flux and so hopefully it'll settle in the next couple of years when people

will figure out like we just want people to be effective yeah there used to be a whole trend and

it was called row r-o-w-e it was Ryan Carson from Basecamp whatever his 30 something signals whatever

yeah 37 signals and Adobe a whole bunch of people it was called row results only work environment

and that was a whole thing that your employees are more productive if they didn't have to think about

let me just leave the office and go you know pick them up or get them where they need to be

and it was a whole trend and then everybody kind of laughed it off and then the pandemic put

everybody in that environment that's why I wanted to go to the office because I had kids at home and

I didn't I wanted to get out of the house honestly I couldn't wait to go to work I was like ah adults

how many kids do you have Lou I have five kids and they're all they're trying to run past the door

you can see them and I don't know what's going on at West's house but I saw him just throw something

at somebody there's a cat just meowing at me just like staring at me just meowing like go away I uh

I have any animals we actually had so Lisa used to have her office next to next to me and you could

hear her on the shows so she's moved away so I know I have a sound lock but she's she says she's

gonna get they make a a cat bed that go that clamps to a desk you know how you have those

clamps like for a microphone

stand that clamps to a desk and then there's a cat bed right like at this level at eye level and

she says she's where she's getting that so I don't know I might have a cat there's no way anyone don't

tell her I said this there's no way anybody can share office with Lisa when she's on the phone

and she's excited she's kind of loud I felt really bad even me I'm loud but Lisa she would like drown

me out she's enthusiastic you know what it's pure enthusiasm she's good 100 dude she's a ball of

energy love her to death exactly I said that though

no no no but that's really what it is and the problem is we couldn't have two people in the

same area that were bundles of energy and joy so we had one of them had to move and I had already

put all this stuff here so we're walking on keyboards too much I could not have a nest for

them to to do a quick launch onto it yeah well that's why you put her in the nest and then I

don't know maybe I just this is a cage is there a lid I need a cage a little bit yeah they would

just do there yeah then all you get is all right a little quick one quick thing I'm uh it's it I

shouldn't be saying this but I'm going to say it anyway I'm in negotiations to um to do the outline

of writing a book about a new way of working um and so and so definitely do it and so totally do

that three or four years when it's ready uh actually you should do a YouTube series and

forget 100 percent but

YouTube podcast YouTube podcast winner just whatever you do don't do benchmarks that way

you write the book in real time um as you make episodes about I did that so when we're done

recording I'll give you a quick peek the first book I wrote which was 95 90 something I had a

net cam on me and it would take a picture every minute of me and then I would add to the caption

page 173 down page

174 down it was the most painful have you ever written a book Wesley no you're gonna love it no

no it's painful I'm I right now so we're I'm doing the legal paperwork too the best thing about

writing a book is having written a book yes exactly then you can go on tour and you know

talk about your book and you get on NBC and stuff like that maybe the next time they do the story of

us it'll be

Leslie Faulkner and the state of us maybe Leo you should write your next book and launch your

book at the mall that I was at last week it's called Lollaport Fukuoka Japan Lollaport is in

L.A L.A P-O-R-T it's uh the Mitsui conglomerate they own this thing is I have a mall named after

me in Japan I don't even yeah it's a pretty dope mall and they have a giant Gundam outside that

animates

it's a super

cool Gundam star malls only have guns wow that's pretty awesome oh geez dude that is dude too soon

that's Doc Rock YouTube.com slash Doc Rock great final saving us in this our show today brought

to you by fundrise do you know what fundrise is so let me talk about investing okay Venture Capital

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if you go look at the s p 500 nearly every major tech company on that list was started and funded

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producing billions of dollars in the process so how do you get in well the hard truth is the

biggest Venture funds are almost entirely funded by institutional investors like endowments or

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if you don't have Saudi oil money behind you or you know a guy who knows a guy uh most of us 99.9

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at the beginning you have to wait till it goes public even then you probably can't buy stock day

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You're not required to say that. But we are thrilled to have Fundrise as a new sponsor on

this week in tech. On we go with the show.

Doge.

What?

That's a doge.

Doge. Everybody, buy doge. Get in early. Doge.

To the moon.

To the moon. Doge. The only thing good about a doge is it had a, was it a corgi or a shinaibu?

Shinaibu.

Very cute.

Shiba inu.

Shiba imu.

Inu.

Inu. Inu.

In Japanese, inu is dog.

What does it mean, Shiba inu?

Inu is dog. Shiba is, we're from the Shiba Prefecture.

It means dog.

It's a dog from the Shiba Prefecture.

That's the worst name.

That's like if I were named Leo, California.

Okay.

All right.

I was all excited.

It's a good name.

But if you know what it means.

That's a good name.

it would be california man california man yeah it wouldn't even be leo i'd just be california man

and you'd be hawaii man doc hi and you'd be i don't know where you're from

where are you are you american man i'll just say american i'm in southern virginia i'm in

roanoke virginia roanoke that's right i delivered the newspaper in roanoke virginia before you were

born probably yeah i saw that message i was like yeah so the we we said from the washington star

and post we would drive all of them in a gigantic like ups size truck to all of the tributaries

around and deliver it to the mall somewhere where they would deliver it to all the people

so we would meet the mailmen of your neighborhood and give them all the buttons that's cool

my brother-in-law i live in such a rural uh area you formerly rural area chicken capital of the

world my brother-in-law used to deliver newspapers on a horse

good lord horseback super fun he said yeah we when we bought our house he says oh yeah i used

to deliver newspapers out there on a horse tom hanks warns followers don't believe those ads you

see with my likeness these ads have been created without my consent fraudulently through ai

do not be fooled has anybody been fooled

there are multiple

multiple ads promoting miracle cures and wonder drugs

i mean this is not the first time this has happened is this going to be a bigger problem

or are all the celebrities going to have to come on and say this is what i endorse this is what i

don't endorse i saw bruce bruce willis like a few years ago was a victim of this of some ads with

his likeness in it was was it in russia i think as well oh it was i remember that yes yeah it's

right i think the those are television ads yeah those are television ads and the people who are

reading this article about tom hanks are probably not the same people who are seeing whatever these

scams that's the problem unfortunately so the the i don't think he's reaching the right people but

i think this is something we need to start talking about i had a uh i heard a podcast about

the talking about deep fakes and ai how most of them especially on the political front

How they've been used as things that like Swifties for Trump, where people aren't supposed to feel like that is supposed to be real.

It's not supposed to fool people, but it's made to just to like make fun of other people.

It's like Dogecoin.

It's a meme.

And it's also a call to the followers, to the in crowd.

Yes.

Wink, wink.

But it makes people comfortable, though, with creating this stuff and sending it out and laughing about it, like the Pope jacket and stuff like this.

Yeah, that's for now.

That's the point is that's for now.

But in a year, you're not going to know what's real and what's not real.

We were talking about this on this week in Google because I took out the Pixel phone and did the reimagined thing.

And I turned my kitty cat into a tiger.

And it's very credible.

It's very realistic.

It looks real.

I don't know how you know the difference.

But it's even the same thing with like with the posing of what is it like with the pixels they have?

Like you take a picture and then you can get in there and you can actually superimpose someone else who wasn't in the original picture.

You could do that with.

Do you remember the time where celebrity celebrities, but people with a political bent would take pictures with an opponent and they would be wearing a T-shirt that was offensive?

And then taking pictures with them.

And you could do that now where you can have people sub in using AI, like Epstein and Trump or something.

As bad as this election might be, this is going to be the last election where you can believe anything.

Yeah.

Here is a picture of Samantha, the cat that's going to be sitting on my desk.

And here's a picture of Samantha as a tiger.

I think that's pretty cute.

I would like that cat.

By the way, the original picture, she had a big pole coming out of her.

She had a big neck, you know, behind her, the, the fence post.

So I was able to remove that.

I think completely invisibly, I guess if you knew where it was, you might look carefully at some of the rocks and then I was able to modify it and make her a tiger and all of that in the phone, in the pixel phone.

I think the, the one that's been freaking people out as I don't know if you've seen the, the doors brothers, the door brothers videos where they take all those celebrities and they go and stick them in.

And those are the super deep fakes, but they, they freak people out.

If you take them out of context.

Uh, D O R the door brothers.

Door brothers.

Yeah.

AI generated stuff.

Um, it looks like it won't affect us, but there's so many people that can't tell, like, we know what the signs are.

We know what to look for.

Uh, you know, we know to check for shadows.

We know to check for like lighting that wouldn't cast a particular way.

but you know there's other people isn't it weird all this stuff that this this looks like my dreams

these are what my dreams look like is that is it's do you anybody else notice that that ai is

is like what your brain does when you're sleeping without any control no maybe it's just me

these are really good they're pretty good yeah definitely yeah um i don't know it can i don't

know if i can show all of these but anyway probably not yeah it reminds me when i had

when my kids were little we would watch a television show and they would be like oh my

gosh and i would say oh it's not real right but then we watch a documentary and they're like oh

my gosh is that real i was like yeah that's real and so i had the knowledge to understand the

framework of what is real and what is not and i think we need to like re-educate everyone to

understand that everything can be fake and unless you did it yourself unless

you're able to willing to go pixel peeping and stuff like that where it's like before someone

says do your own research and before when you say do your own research you would actually like

take the vials out and actually do the own like experiments yourself but no one does their own

research and so it's all about who you trust and um and so trust as a as an exchange as an economy

as a currency for making sure that you're getting things that no happen is going to be more and more

interesting for you and the way you move forward the trust economy has been slowly deteriorating

for a long time even before we got to the sort of ai thing or even the tech thing um this is funny

to me because i'm old enough to remember but there was a point in time where you will get into an

argument between the camaro lovers and the pontiac firebird lovers and they would have full fights

about which one was better while gm was standing in the back knowing the only difference between

those two cars was the trust economy and the trust economy and the trust economy has been slowly

deteriorating for a long time even before we got to the sort of ai thing or even the tech thing

was the shell and the name tag every other bit of that car was the same screw for screw

so we have been pulling this kind of stuff for the longest time and now it's at a level where

we've we've allowed people to get lazy with so like you say doing their own research or

vetting these things for themselves right we've allowed people to even take positions of power

by fooling enough people to believe that they're going to do one particular thing and not the other

thing right we've allowed people like elon to just come in and snatch which was you know a halfway

decent platform at one point now it's up to us we really have to go back and re-educate and so it's

weird for all of us smart people who've always take the time to go study more and learn more

and things like that you know and it's that smart people is not even the right way to

just the people who were curious enough about something to dig deeper uh because now i know

highly intelligent people who are being constantly fooled by stuff and i was like i have to look at

them like i don't believe you would fall for that like i see your master's degree on the wall and

you're falling for this and they go why that's not my you know my my area of concern or whatever

well now it has to be unfortunately we have to have areas of concern even in places we aren't

necessarily concerned do you think oprah is going to cover this on her special on abc

no uh i mean that's kind of what we need is people like oprah inoculating us against this

an inoculation is kind of how i think of it by the way the door brothers uh video which you posted

lou has uh anthony fauci coming to your front door with an inoculation that maybe that's not

the kind of inoculation i'm talking about this is the one that was on the door brothers stuff that

was on uh twitter look what he's doing with the

with the pope it's unbelievable yeah yeah um it's obviously fake though right i mean yes i don't

think this but the point is at this point it's just funny or creepy or dreamlike and weird but

the reason why it's more creepy leo is although it's obviously fake to the majority of us we are

at a level of there's a lot of people who are let's just say unstable in plain sight who you

never knew were unstable

until they cross a line right and again i have to pick on the same person that's a good point because

we kind of seen we've seen elements of it at one point but now we really see yo your man e is a

little bit unstable okay we're starting to see some famous people like when when when yeezy went

sideways like you know we watched a whole bunch of people go from okay you're a little strange

to you're completely unstable and we watch them progress

right

and in a way uh for us specifically i would say a lot of it probably has to do with like

diet and medicine and then just you know way we've not paid attention to an education system

where we live i actually think that mental illness is a real problem and it's because it's hidden

uh when we see mental illness like yeezy is a good example um i mean he's genuinely has

a mental mentally ill i don't know if he's schizophrenic i don't know what the diagnosis

is but it's clear he's mentally ill um it's unfortunate that it gets exploited but on

the other hand it's probably better that you see it because it's honestly going on all the time

it's just we hide it because it's so uh embarrassing or uncomfortable i do want to say

really quickly though because you brought up mental illness that people who are mentally ill

are most likely the victims of crime oh exactly right exactly they're not the ones that yes no

exactly right much more likely the victims are especially the victims of crime because a lot of joe librer is at this point who's most likely to be со designer of people are mostly those low ranking lawyers who are not

likely to be a victim yes and absolutely being convinced and thinking like going into a pizza

parlor and saying let the kids out um those are the people those people who are just wanting to

do good are probably one of the people who are most dangerous not the people who are are wanting

to do violence but they wanted to they think that it tweaks that their motivation center of them

being a good person and then trying to fulfill that trying to be batman or something uh could

could be a problem where it could it could be a problem for the rest yeah i don't think ai would

ever make somebody mentally ill but on the other hand if somebody is mentally ill they could be

perhaps you said the main thing though people are learning how to manipulate people's emotion

centers that's true and you're making people who are otherwise good people do crazy things

because they're sparking their emotions

system and so when and leo to your point about youtube right you have people who

otherwise good people all of a sudden get a little bit of taste of fame and then being told

that their self-worth is based around the number that is attached to the end of their profile

and they start trying to my my favorite word embiggen that profile so they start doing more

and more dangerous things and then you got youtubers putting themselves in harm's way

all for what we used to call s and g's um s and giggles but now it's for likes you know now it's

for clicks and likes and so you got people just doing really dangerous things and causing harm

is it worse than it was or is it more visible than it was it's just visible it's more visible

i feel like though that social media especially has weaponized a certain kind of popularity and

search for popularity and

uh fomo that might not have been so commonplace when it was you know oh i read something in a book

what it is is emotion can take over in the vacuum of proper education i'm going to say something i

don't mean this in any political standpoint whatsoever so people put your knives down now

i i had the benefit of going to school in japan and i'm going to just give you a one strange

example about japan that's so different from us but it goes to show you what happens in a place

where everyone's trying to grow together versus we're trying to hold back a certain sect of

people i can say this from experience because i am part of this certain sect okay in japan

if your kid is misbehaved you are forced to remove your kid from school spend money to put him in the

school where he can learn how to behave properly in the u.s you put your kid in the paid school

to keep them away from the

forecast let's provide this kid a better opportunity a better education a better everything

books meals the whole nine yards so we're going to use the pay for school to separate the us from

them in japan you only send your kid to private school because your kids are strong right when

your kid's acting up right so we've created from a long time ago from being actually started from

the royals we ran away from the royals and came here to japan and we're going to use the paid school

and recreated the royals but instead of blood we did it based off of currency and that is that set

up the u.s in a place of failure for a very very long time we also don't teach kids because we

don't let them be together in japan from the minute you're like three you are taking turns

cleaning up for each other and you understand i was always impressed when i learned that japanese

school kids have to clean up the school

yes janitors they clean up there's no janitors there but the reason why we had janitors there

is because my kid is is purebred so they don't need to clean the grounds let's hire some people

that look like me to clean the ground instead because we're less than so we created that mess

so and then now we have no way to dig out of it because it's so deeply ingrained do you think

that the people at the highest tell the people at the bottom that someone else is coming for you

they tell the people in the middle

the reason why you can't become at the top is the people at the bottom are holding you back and so

they can just sit at the top be protected do you think that the japanese or other cultures are

better protected against ai because of that no they still have similar problems but they're more

there's a definitely more education i tell you what this will blow your mind i don't know when

last time you've been but i go religiously there is a bookstore on almost every other corner where

restaurants which they do they also have a bookstore everywhere yeah but you could leave

your purse on the table at mcdonald's and go to the bathroom and no one will steal it no one will

steal it you know this is amazing so they're the culture of like you don't but this is the test of

what your thesis are they as vulnerable to this ai and other manipulation as we are and you are they

yes yes yes and no but in a different sense they're they're not going to get attacked based

off of their emotions

because they'll do a better job of processing is this real they'll take the time to go look

we won't even care we'll just be like lou said it so it must be factual i don't need to investigate

lou lou's cool let me just listen to lou you know like they will at least take the time to think it

through and test it out and then you know ask other people it's really weird you know how it is

but there is definitely something to like i look at places like uh finland and other places we have

really really strong media

literacy right uh someone just said imagine said it i look at places where reading is still

fundamental we went through a phase in my day of the 80s where being an athlete as i was and a

straight-a student i had to fight every day in both camps i had to fight with my nerd camps to

let me play the nerd group they go no but you're a jock yeah i'm a jock because i'm the fastest kid

in the state but i still got more computers than you so i could be in a nerd club i could be both

you know

it was weird to be both but the only reason why i was able to live in both is because i grew up a

half breed so i started always on two sides of a fence that didn't like each other but

what can we do about it now make people understand that you have to i don't care if you're an adult

and you're not in school anymore you have got to educate yourself people need to go back to

spending at least an hour a day educating themselves on something and it is way too much fun

but you know once you're done shopping you're gonna go to your bed and hungry for food and

that's a significant step but forget about it okay what does anybody do i hate the smart people term

because it's a term that is made by some people of you one shares a confession to the heart of

these guys they are very very intelligent so there's no compelling reasons that they have to

be smart when they are in school they try to you guys remember how i surprised allilleiteel

what your gym teacher did it was it missed the tub because my increase in graduation and university

my first quality gym workout night was an exercise for on an all day by day workout for everybody

who was watching all of them are smart people do stuff instead of like find a way to educate yourself

again everybody we're talking to in the chat we all take time to read up and learn and you know like all of us are i

have to say though i uh know young people who think that they're doing research but really

they're just going out on the internet and reading crap and a hundred percent yeah so so true they

are reading up on stuff they're trying to learn they're they're they have the urge to learn what's

true and what's critical thinking but they're surrounded by critical thinking yeah i don't

know if there's a is there enough i don't know if there's enough critical thinking in the world to

cut through all this i have a question for you doc rock about the is the i'm guessing the internal

incentive structure might be different in japan than it is here for instance well it's collective

as opposed to individual i think that's the biggest thing in america we are an individualistic

society they are much more collective society and we're a lot about what freedom is and what

freedoms are if someone said like here in the united states you could be rich but you have to

screw over a whole bunch of people people are like okay i can do that i can do that but but in

like for instance are there mlms in japan multi-level marketing there must be no it's

really funny because yes and no okay so i'm a prime example this is going to sound super crazy

uh just random as i don't even know what they cost because i don't eat fast food but let's just say

a big mac is eight bucks in your town what does a big mac cost in any airport in the u.s almost

double whatever it is at a regular price yep in japan the fast food in the airport is the same

price it is anywhere in the world it's the same price it is anywhere in the world it's the same

everywhere at the baseball game still the same price they don't elevate it just because of the

urgency of the event that kind of stuff is not have surge pricing in japan they don't do surge

pricing so although there are multi-level type things it's never it's about actually at meeting

people enjoying spending time together and doing business not trying to jack people out and yes

let me point this out before anybody says i'm crazy japan is definitely not a utopia they have

their own set of problems you've got the um you've got the salary

man who works 80 hours a week and gets drunk that's that's a whole different companies how

they cheat the people that do cheat they exploit the salary people like you do not go home until

your job is done and there there's a they have their own mental health issues whatever i'm not

saying that but i'm just using their their when you're nobody in the united states ever married

a pillow well maybe that my pillow guy did but nobody else and right we'll talk about that yeah

there's definitely some there are definitely some things there so let's not get it this is

important the reason this is important is because you know and we have listeners 30 percent of our

audience is outside the u.s so even though we are somewhat u.s centric uh uh we have an audience all

over the world i hear from them and i love it uh but i do think that a lot of what we think about

in terms of the perils of social media and the perils of ai are very american centric that i

don't know if they're the same perils elsewhere i think you're making that case doc right they're

different that's what i'm saying it is different

but i do know that when when we were quote unquote top of the food chain

and everybody looked up to us and to this point as i traveled the world a lot of people still look

up to us um they were focused on the thing that is making them better is education okay so let's

focus on education and everybody else spent time getting educated and we spent time trying to stop

certain people from getting educated whether that was women whether that was people of color

that was the poor folks uh we we really somewhere in the 80s and 90s took this level of uh let's just

start defunding schools if you will and the biggest one that we have right now which is a big

pain in the butt to me i had it hard so you need to have it hard too like no like i i think i think

opening up education so that everybody can be college educated is brilliant you know why because

we have less stupid people in the world we have less of the really dumb accidents because you know

there's nobody out here being stupid you don't think that some people are just stupid no i don't

think so you think everybody is educable and and and i feel like some people just aren't that bright

maybe i'm wrong i always thought that it's that's why i say it's unfair when people say oh well

you're just smart no i took the time to learn tech so anybody can be anybody can be smart well maybe

call smart is just the desire to learn there you go or the willingness to be taught but not everybody

has your old and even after you're old and degreed and have a status it's the willingness to be taught

too many plenty of dumb old degree where they no longer want to be taught or they don't think that

they're teachable well i like your utopia doc i don't know if we'll ever achieve that uh no i i

still think though my question is well for instance lou you put this story in the wall street journal

where you were talking about the fact that china's ai engineers are secretly accessing the chips that

the chips act bans them from accessing specifically nvidia chips nvidia makes chips for the chinese

market that are dumbed down but they don't want those um they want the real deal because they're

developing ai should we be threatened by chinese ai i think they're they're at a race like they are

they are behind and they want to be in front are they behind actually they may not be behind

I think there's a lot of evidence they might be ahead, right?

They're behind in chip manufacture, for sure, because we have EUV and other technologies which we won't share with them.

But they've been using AI for social control for a lot longer than we have in the United States.

Right.

I think the biggest thing is they are, because they don't have access to this, you know, it's more of a commodity.

Like, they are trying everything they can to get ahead.

And I think that's the thing that's really driving them.

That's the type of society they live in.

And so, you know.

Will they be better prepared than we are for the advent of AI, deep fakes, and so forth?

I don't know if you can be.

Yeah.

I don't think there is prep for that.

Yeah, I think in some ways, kind of to disagree with you, Doc, human nature is hard to change.

And there are some ways that we are very gullible.

And easily fooled.

And no amount of reading or education is going to change that.

That's just human nature.

Yeah, I think that part of it has to do with wanting the individualism at the same time we do best when we are around others.

Yeah.

I think some combination of collectivism and individualism might be.

There's benefits to both, right?

There you go.

Because that's the problem with Japan.

The collectivism is so tight.

You can't get anybody to agree on anything because no one wants to step up and take the chance of being wrong.

So that was funny.

Hey, everybody, let's go to dinner.

What time should we go to dinner?

We can innovate.

Our companies innovate because people are willing to say something dumb or do something dumb to the degree that they're not willing in Japan and other cultures.

Right, right.

Their AI is not going to tell you to put glue on pizza.

Never.

Yeah.

Or eat rocks.

Yeah.

But ours will.

God bless it.

USA.

All right.

Let me take a little break.

Last break of the show.

And we will continue on with a fabulous show.

Doc Rock, Lou MM, and Wesley Faulkner, great to have all of you on the show today.

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Guys, stop passing notes.

You guys are passing notes while I'm talking.

It's totally ineffective.

I didn't hear it.

Wesley has a sign that says, Doc, we hear you typing.

Oh, sorry.

Doc, did you see that sign?

It's the lovely Cherry MX switches.

Oh, you see?

Yeah.

So I bought the mushiest keyboard I could find.

This is a Logitech MX anywhere.

Keyboard because I can type and you don't know I'm typing.

It's really mushy.

I have to get no cherry.

I don't know.

I can't type, so I need to feel the click.

But I also came up with IBM Selectic.

So, you know, there's that, isn't there?

There's a new documentary out called In Search of Mavis Beacon.

And I almost want to say, you know, give it up, you guys.

You're not going to be like in search of Betty Crocker.

Let me see if I can find this.

Mavis was made up, right?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure she was.

Maybe, you know, I'm going to watch this documentary and learn otherwise.

Seeking Mavis Beacon.

Two digital sleuths set out to find the woman who lent her image.

Oh, so there is a real picture.

That's true.

I mean, she wasn't a famous typing teacher in elementary school.

So many people in your generation, Doc, and younger learned to type from Mavis Beacon.

So this is, I guess, a podcast.

They did the podcast Missing Richard Simmons.

They found him and then he died.

So that's no good.

So I'm hoping Mavis is going to be okay after this.

No, I think it's a movie.

Seeking Mavis Beacon.

Did you learn how to type with Mavis?

Or did you have a real teacher?

Well, the problem is I had the real teacher, but it was in 12th grade.

At the same time, I discovered

that that and the really awesome five leaf plant.

So I never went to that class.

I was busy working on my first ever business,

which required hanging out by the lockers in the back.

Why is a quick brown dog keep jumping over the cow, man?

Yeah, the Lazy Fox.

Yeah.

So I completely skipped, which was dumb, because had I known I was going to be

such a computer nerd, I never, ever would have skipped that class.

Completely would not.

But I think the thing that was unique

to me, and this is, again, a weird perspective now.

At the time, there was never a software box anywhere with a black female on it.

Well, that's true.

All you had was Aunt Jemima, which is definitely not a role.

For that matter. Right.

So at the time, when this got popular, I was working in a store called Software,

et cetera, and I just like, wow, that's pretty a trip.

That is such a thing. All right, cool.

And so I bought it, and I swear I played it like three times.

I was like, man, I can't type. Never mind.

I'll just leave it to the fact that I can't type.

I'm fantastic at music.

I can wrap my face up.

Get this.

You can buy Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing on Steam.

Wow.

It is still out there.

There's Mavis, who is not real.

But this is still the way kids learn to type, and they do it in Steam.

Is there a multiplayer option?

That would be cool.

I wonder what the reviews are.

There's only seven user reviews.

It's not exactly taking the world by storm.

Yeah, it's 50 bucks.

Do you know how to type, Wesley?

Like, real touch type?

No, I'm one of these.

Yeah, me too. How about you, Lou?

You type for a living.

Typing Tutor from 1989.

So you're a touch typist?

Yes. Wow.

But Doc isn't because he found something with five leaves.

No, Wesley isn't because I know there's a thing as home keys.

That's about the extent of my fingers.

But then I have to look at the keyboard while I'm typing.

So that's no good.

I don't use one of my fingers.

People look at me weird.

I don't use my pinky.

So I use all the other fingers, all nine fingers, just not my pinky.

Well, it's funny that you should say that because I like Emacs.

I use Emacs, and Emacs users are always complaining about Emacs pinky.

I don't know why they're complaining about it.

You just put your finger on the control key.

There's no pinky involved.

Who types with their pinky?

Well, apparently Emacs users do anyway.

I think that's all the news that fits the print.

It was a light news week.

We are going to get ready for an Apple event a week from tomorrow, and I will be

out of

circulation.

We've been on vacation.

So Micah Sargent will be covering that for us.

10 a.m.

Pacific, 1 p.m.

Eastern time on Monday for the Apple event.

In fact, I don't know what I'm going to do because the iPhone comes out on the 20th.

I won't be back to the 22nd.

So I might be a little bit weird.

I normally get iPhone every year on my birthday because I'm the 12th and the

order day will be the 13th, but when I order it is still technically the 12th

because, you know, white time.

Yeah.

And you have to get up really early in the morning, don't you?

What time do you have to get up?

Normally two or three, depending on, you know, am.

Yeah.

But last year I had to do my phone in Japan

because I was in Japan for my birthday, and I ended up ordering it there and then

picking it up when I got home.

So I came home and the UPS guy showed up.

So this year I did my Japan early, so I wouldn't have

that problem because it was trying to order a phone from the.

Do you get a new phone every year?

Super stupid. Absolutely.

And a nerd.

Do you think who doesn't?

What kind of nerd?

I so want I will know that I am finally

retired when I don't buy the new iPhone, the new Pixel phone.

I can't wait.

Yeah, we all have our crosses.

Good point.

That is kind of a first world problem, isn't it?

Oh, no.

No, I have to buy the new iPhone again.

It seems like it was just a year ago.

Wesley, what kind of phone do you use?

I have a Pixel seven, and I don't plan on upgrading until I absolutely need to.

No. How about you, Lou?

You have the Windows phone.

I know.

I really wish I did.

I do. I know.

I have two.

I have an iPhone and an S22.

Yeah.

The Samsungs are the most popular in the world.

Yeah.

I got the flip phone because I thought, oh, I should get a bendy one.

But I buy them kids.

They don't send them to me.

I don't get any special treatment.

Is there any because there was a lot of going in the chat early.

Is there any of the bendy phones right now?

Would you say is good?

Yeah.

Let me see if I just seems weird.

Every time I see the screen with a little weird curve.

You mean good or do you mean better than a slap phone?

Yeah, I think it's good.

I like this phone.

Let me go get it.

Yeah, to me, it's just really good.

It's relative.

Does it make you more productive?

Does it enhance the experience?

Is good.

The bar is.

And what would be the bar in terms of being a fluffy fellow?

The Chubb of fatter in my pocket would bother me.

The Chubb.

You know what I mean? Because I got big thighs.

Like, you know, I was a track.

I played safety slash running back.

So my phone is in my pocket and it, like, sticks out.

That just seems weird to me.

That's what's cool about this.

You can put this in your shirt pocket.

It's got a screen on the top here like this.

And I think it unfolds to a pretty nice.

I mean, cargo shorts were made for these types of phones.

Yeah, I don't wear.

I think I didn't like the fold or the pixel fold because those are too big.

This is the flip.

So it's about the size of a pocket square.

In fact.

Whoops. Here it is.

I took it out.

It's not that bad.

Quippy. Come on.

Super funny.

Oh, my God.

What did Clippy say?

Oh, my God.

Look at the guy right in your pocket there.

Like that.

Isn't that good?

Yes.

You know, it's fine.

I don't know.

Does this green sad you at all?

No, you don't see the crease.

Okay.

You don't.

The only thing that bothers me a little bit is that.

See, there's the crease.

You can see it if I angle it just right.

Right.

The only thing that bothers you is that it doesn't feel like glass.

It feels a little it's almost a little rubbery because it has to be.

You know, the thing is, when you see them in the store, like if I go to Spectrum for

whatever reason or stuff into the AT&T store that has been sitting there

and manipulated by like 3000 people, so it's extremely evident.

So I've never really seen one where like a normal person, normal wearing there.

The other thing that does, it's kind of cool.

You might like this.

You can use it.

As a camera sitting like an L, like a beach chair.

So you can put it like that and then look at it.

I'm not a big fan of fish because one of the best compliments you can give fish is saying it doesn't taste like fish.

And when I see these flip phones, I have the same feeling of like, oh, you can't tell it's a flip phone or like, that's the advantage.

That doesn't feel like it's worth it to me.

And from somebody in our YouTube channel.

Chat, this is the open source typing tutor, Clavaro touch typing tutor, which is available for free runs on Unix Linux.

That's about it.

And there is no lovely woman teaching you, but it will teach you tarball for that's how funky this is.

Download the tarball and explode it and you can learn how to type.

If you already know how to do all that, you don't need to learn how to type.

You're still in high demand.

Lou MM.

He is a wonderful fellow, principal managing editor and I'm sorry, I'm losing it at the end of the show.

Principal engineering manager for Microsoft, former host of Twiet.

We really appreciate it.

You said you were saying earlier you stay in touch with all the old Twiet guys.

Oh, yeah.

All the time.

Yeah.

Cheaper sends me text pretty much every day about the stuff he's working on.

He's working on down there at the grounds.

So he didn't really retire.

He just no, he became a board member of the Orlando Conference Center down there, and he helps them with their networks and all that stuff.

So, yeah, he loves it.

Have a good time.

Very nice.

Well, that's great.

Give them our regards.

We miss them.

Thank you.

Thank you for being here.

Oh, thank you to chocolate milk.

Minisip P Hall.

Here is an online typing tutor.

Zty PEZ type.

So it's a game.

And you can.

Turn to type by shooting.

Yeah, it's like the old stuff.

Invaders.

Yeah, that's what this is.

Former kid posts.

Whoops.

Posts.

That's kind of cool.

That's kind of fun.

Thank you, Lou, for being here.

Thank you so much, Wesley Faulkner.

Everybody go to Wesley 83.

Com.

Give this guy a job or join.

In as the Developer Relations Forum gets underway, starts up.

There's lots you can do at Wesley 83.

Com.

Except learning to type.

You can find me on the socials, mostly on Mastodon.

And your podcast, Radical Respect.

How's that going?

It's going well.

Curing up for we have another episode recording on Wednesday.

Nice.

Really enjoying the guests that we have lined up.

I wish I could.

Actually, so I saw on the rundown.

I don't know if I'm sorry if this is breaching etiquette, but I think Amy Webb

is supposed to be on Twig next week.

Yeah, I'm so mad.

She's going to be on when I'm gone.

Yeah.

Trying to have her to get her on a guest podcast.

So that'd be great.

But yeah, really, really, really exact, like, happy about this.

And we also submitted again for South by next year.

So hopefully our panel votes.

And so I'll be able to do that next year as well, based on the book by Kim Scott.

Radical respect.

Yes.

What gets in the way of collaborative, respectful work environments, lack of

respect, and look for Wes's new book about the future of work.

That's exciting, too.

Yeah, it's exciting, too.

I just locked down the name of it.

And so I'm excited for don't tell anybody, though, but I'm not saying it.

Yeah.

A book is like a baby.

You don't tell anybody about it until you're in the second trimester.

That's my rule.

I just made that up.

So good.

Thank you for laughing, Doc.

Rock.

That's why he's on because he laughs at my lousy jokes.

YouTube.

Com funny.

That was legit.

Funny.

He's also director of strategic partnerships at Ecamm, which made this show possible.

Thank you.

Ecamm.

Thank you.

I was blown away by your team when they called me to ask me questions.

And I was like, wait, you can do that.

And then, like, I don't know, we'll find out.

And I'm like, well, I got a lot of you say you can do it, but I think you can.

And we went through the steps.

And I was floored.

So I think it's amazing.

I appreciate you guys.

Thank you.

Yeah.

We got an amazing team with some real shops and what they keep doing.

I keep moving studios and changing the ground rules, and they keep coming up with

great solutions like this attic studio.

So I really appreciate it.

Benito Gonzalez, our producer, technical director.

Do you like working at home, Benito?

Or would you rather be coming into the TD in the studio?

It has its advantages.

You know, I'm fine with either.

Are you lonely?

Do you miss us?

I mean, I miss hanging out.

Yeah, that's what I miss.

And hanging out and stuff like that.

That's what you got to solve.

Wesley is, yeah, you could get a lot of work done at home, but there's some social element missing.

You know, I have a fix for it.

Oh, well, it's all in the book.

It's all in the book.

Good.

We're thinking we just maybe have a regular monthly

potluck or something here.

Have everybody come over.

But they don't even part of the problem is they're all over the country now.

Everybody's distributed.

I miss you guys anyway.

Benito, thank you. I appreciate it.

It's nice to see you on the other end of the Zoom.

Burke McQuinn, our new studio manager.

Not that there's a studio to manage, but that's his job.

While I'm gone, he's going to paint the medallion.

We'll take your votes for colors, whatever you want.

But obviously, white is the wrong color because it looks like I have a halo,

which is not really what we're going for on this.

And of course, our executive producer, my dear wife, Lisa, who you couldn't hear all.

Could you hear her in the show today?

No, because she's way the hell down the other house.

We moved her.

Thank you all for being here.

Thanks especially to our club.

Twit members who made this show possible.

We do twit every Sunday, 2 to 5 p.m.

Pacific Time.

That's 5 to 8 p.m.

Eastern 2100 UTC.

We stream it on seven platforms.

Count them seven Discord YouTube.

Com Twitch Live Twitch.

Tv Twit.

We're also on X.

Com right on the front page, usually because who else is streaming on X?

We're on Facebook.

We're on LinkedIn.

That's six. Oh, and kick.

Although and we'd love your input.

We're thinking about trading kick in for Telegram.

We can only do.

Seven.

So I think maybe Telegram might be better.

I don't know.

Now that Pavel Dorov is in Dutch, we could do that.

If you can't watch live, they'll get an on demand version of the show.

It's available at the website.

Twit TV.

All our shows are or you can go to YouTube.

Each show has its own channel on YouTube.

But if you go to the main YouTube channel, you'll see them all.

That's YouTube.

Com Twitter, as I mentioned, or subscribe in your favorite podcast player.

That way you'll get it automatically.

The minute it's available.

So you have it for your Monday morning commute.

And since nobody's commuting anymore, I think, honestly, that's going to be bad for podcasting.

Wesley, you got to get people to listen to more podcasts while they're working from home.

If you can solve that, that would be very nice.

I'd appreciate it.

Easy.

Use the podcast button on YouTube on your TV.

There are a surprising number of people who actually watch the show on TV.

I don't know.

That's crazy talk.

Thank you, Doc.

Thank you, Wesley.

Thank you.

Thank you, Lou.

Thanks to all of you.

We'll see you next time.

Another twit.

Oh, I won't see you next week.

Two weeks off.

I'll see you on the 22nd.

Another twit is in the can.

This is amazing.

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