S19 Ep1365: Towerborne: An Interview with Stoic

Ladies and gentlemen, this is GamerTac Radio with your host, Danny Pena, Paris Lillie and Peter Toledo.

All right, so GamerTac Radio, we're back here and we have some special guests and we're going to be talking about Towerborn,

which we talked about it a couple of weeks back. We got to play it at the Xbox Gamescom event here in L.A.

I wasn't in Germany. I'm jealous, but it's OK. So we have a special guest here.

Both are going to. Can you guys introduce yourself? Let's start with Tricia.

Sure. Hi, I'm Tricia Stauffer and I am the CEO and president of Stoic, also number one fan of Towerborn.

All right. And I am McLaren and I am the game director on Towerborn and the number two fan.

Oh, number two fan. All right. So I'm number three then, I guess. Right.

Always got to nip at the heels of number one.

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I heard about you guys a while back. Didn't you guys worked on Banner Saga?

A while back, right?

We did. So Stoic was created twelve and a half years ago when John, Arnie and Alex left BioWare to they said

they looked at the money they had and said, what what can what game can we make with this?

And started with Banner Saga and made three games there.

Yeah, I mean, the transition is a little different compared to like the Banner Saga and now with your new project, Towerborn.

What was like the any inspirations or what was it that you wanted to do something different?

Compared to like your previous games?

Sure. Banner Saga, like I said, was created because they had a limited amount of money in order to make a game.

And that's what they thought they could make with that.

But John, Arnie and Alex all have a long history of multiplayer games.

So actually, Banner Saga was kind of more of a switch for them than Towerborn.

But as they were making Banner Saga one, two and three, you know, their families were growing.

More kids involved.

And all of that Banner Saga series is a single player, dark, dark series, affectionately called a depression simulator inside the studio.

And so as they were continuing, they wanted something that they could play with their friends and family and sit on the couch and play with their kids and things like that.

So that was really it.

And then I return back to a live live game that you could feel like community is very important to Stoic.

And we still have a very strong community around Banner Saga.

But being able to have a game where you can continue that conversation longer than just here's the box product and go play the game once.

And that's been very important to us.

Yeah, I know the game is coming out early access.

What are the things that your team would like to get from the committee, you know, because from feedback about the game early access and also how much content we're going to get to see once this is out to the masses?

The big thing here is that Stoic has always been a studio that's engaged with its community.

When we were doing Banner Saga, all of those games got kicked over to the wall to the to the group of players who were who were helping us out and participating in the Kickstarter.

So it just continues the tradition.

That's just how we've always made games.

And we want the same things that we wanted out of out of Banner Saga.

Hey, are we going in the right direction?

You know, are you?

Are you enjoying the way the game works?

Are things balanced correctly?

What are you doing?

What are you engaging with?

And that will be the focus of what we continue to not only immediately address in the short term.

Oh, hey, this isn't balanced correctly or this thing isn't working well or this thing just isn't fun.

Maybe we need to take that out or change it or update it versus the long term.

Hey, what are we continuing to build in this game?

And on that, we're actually launching.

We're launching about 40 hours worth of content, so the entire core loop is there.

You can create your character, you can go out and experience the whole world map.

There's, I think, 15 plus dungeons on the world map that you can engage with.

There's lieutenants, there's bosses, there's gear so you can you can play and get more powerful and kill more powerful bosses.

And then what we will continue to do is unleash more of that content.

Harder content, more advanced content, legendary items, legendary gear, all that sort of stuff.

Wow, 40 hours, that's a lot of content, a lot of content.

Yeah, and now also for the Xbox gamers, you know, you know, the game is coming out later or was it next year, sometime next year?

Are they also going to get some type of early access on the console version or is it just going to be like, okay, this is the full release based on the feedback from the PC gamers?

We'll go into game preview in the early part of 2025.

Our main focus.

Our main focus here is to get the game ready for a 1.0 launch.

What is that date?

I don't know when the game is right and players are like, this is awesome and we feel great about this.

We want to make sure that the process of creating this type of game is done as reasonably well as possible.

I mean, every time you pick up a live game, it's always that first window of time where you're like, ah, this is very rough.

And so our our mind.

That was like, we know it's going to be rough.

It's a live game when you start.

So why not utilize it?

This early access and game preview methodology is a way to engage with players and have them feel like, oh, yeah, we actually are shaping this.

We are actually making this game better.

Like, I love these these, you know, developers.

We want to be a part of this.

So, yeah, you know, when I was talking to my co-hosts, we were we got to play the game at the event a couple of weeks back.

And one thing.

You remind me kind of it has like this old school casual crashers type vibe.

Was there any inspiration you guys, you know, that helped you to work on this game, design this game to gameplay and all that big time?

Everybody like I think the majority of the people here love side scrolling games, everything all the way back to the old school arcade games.

You know, Simpsons certainly comes up.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles comes all classic Streets of Rage, Streets of Rage, Streets of Rage.

In fact, we have a we have an internal document where we talk about our inspirations, like Streets of Rage is on there.

The Vanillaware old Vanillaware titles, Odin Sphere, Dragon's Crown, that kind of stuff's all on there.

So, yeah, all of that stuff was a huge, huge inspiration for us.

And one of the things that's really cool is, you know, when we looked at it, there's a lot of single player games.

In fact, all of them are single player and they're very tight, short experiences.

So like nine to 12 hours.

I think.

Maybe.

The Vanillaware titles, you could push a much further thing, but those are aren't accessible to a lot of players anymore.

It's not like you can just go and play Odin Sphere, Dragon's Crown on on Steam anymore or at all.

And really the only living game that exists that side scrolling brawler is like an Eastern title.

So there's nothing really in the West where we've said, hey, you can have a larger experience.

We could continue to push the style forward.

We can continue to improve on the combat.

And we can do it all on the fly.

And so it's just a really great opportunity to kind of address a missing spot for players.

Yeah.

And, you know, speaking about those type of games to local co-op, we're going to get to see that console version.

Is it possible to also for the PC version, if somebody has like their PC connected to the TV or something like that?

Not when we release next week into early access, it won't be there.

It is.

It is possible to do like a couch co-op on a PC or something like that.

I mean, I don't know.

I don't know.

It's a lot of work, though.

Too heavy.

Yeah.

There are some hurdles there.

But I will say, yeah, when we come to the game preview on Xbox, it's absolutely there.

And it is fun.

It's the great couch co-op games are kind of far and few, you know, far from what you would call a PC or a console version of the PC.

Right?

few and far between and um i said i was the number one fan mclaren claimed number two but i'll put

i'll put my husband in as 1.5 because he's put in nearly as many hours as i have because we did

nothing but couch co-op as we were uh you know for the last oh my gosh how many months has been

10 months or something um it is fantastic and it's just you know it's it's it's hard to capture

that that feeling you know it's fun to play online as well it's fun to play you know whether

you're one to four players it's super fun to play but there's something about sitting there next to

somebody you can elbow them you can you know talk about what's happening it's just it's fantastic so

we're we want to bring it wherever we can as soon as we can but we we also know that it needs to be

great like there's nothing worse than coming in and being unsatisfied with it so that's that's

our marker yeah so uh you

know while we got to play uh the game a couple weeks back um i noticed that michael michaels has

a different uh character that had like you know weapons different than mine's mine's was more of

like the gloves right so um is this like for those that haven't had a chance to play the game is it

where you create your own class or is it you select the class the beginning of the the axis

we we define the weapon types as classes and so players can select from one of four different

classes and that'll be it so i think it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's

it's it's it's is what you're looking for that that'll that'll still matter the way as long as

you sit at least five years at least of course but but when you're one year older so there's

going to be positive change coming to the esports scene as well and i'd also like to add a comment

about these classes as well if you found them useful i'm not unblu huntin porsche glass

erich strap frightening however if you want a proper emphasis on one of the classes here

scott equestrian inСnty voiwCue i'ma grab one of the classes and we'll take a minute right here

so for example scott and vic may that'll that'll define the weapons we've got uh pyroclass which

is the war club you've got the sentinel which is sword and shield you've got the shadow striker

which are the the daggers and then you've got the rock breakers which were the gauntlets that

um you know slowing down the group messing around in your inventory you just but it's pretty quick

you just go into the menu you go to class you select what you want to play in it and it equips

it and you go well he's a great question for the number one and number two fans of the game

which one is like your favorite your favorite class oh well yeah if you've watched any any of

our gameplay uh i am rock breakers all day every day but why is that all the way i mean who doesn't

love spin to win spin to win dude you just push a button and you spin and you kill everything i

see that one that was pretty cool too that was um gauntlets for me are great i love the up close

and personal nature of it all i enjoy there's there's just so many great moves with gauntlets

and uh the animation

are great i mean it's just fun it's fun to play and it's fun to watch and um like yeah there's

there's elbow drops and flying kicks and things like this um moves that are inspired from the

real world you know kind of world of wrestling and sometimes like my husband and i will be playing

and we just make up our own rules like okay this level for this mission only do elbow drops and

like how can we be successful doing that it's just kind of fun like you can do your own thing

yeah but yo i really really enjoy the

the animation the look of the game and also the music now who worked on the soundtrack because

man the music is really really cool even even exactly when you start the game uh you know early

access uh it felt like it didn't sound repetitive it was like it felt like it was changing the whole

time i don't know yeah yeah it was very often austin wintery is back austin is a an award

winning composer uh did all of the music for banner

saga he's known for journey other games so he's here again with us for towerborn and yes the

the soundtrack is fantastic i i had the privilege of and sitting for three days listening to it all

get recorded at the warner brothers studio and that was amazing and yeah even with the the start

screen it is it is beautiful and gorgeous and we have a dynamic music system in the game so

as you're playing through missions they're

there are so many i don't even remember the count of the number of themes that were recorded but as

different things change during the mission you know oh you know building up to you know maybe

the the the peak moment during the mission and and winding down it's it it's very dynamic it changes

it's uh and it's beautiful people will will love to you know for those of us fortunate to already

have access to the music we just sort of put it on in the background and listen all day and

it's that's it's that lovely well you got to release them music services so people could you

know start streaming it you know so now um yeah another thing too i know i talked about the

animation like how was the process of working on those uh animation and stuff because uh it looks

really really cool too in the game yeah that's something that we started way back at the

beginning of the project right the inspiration was studio ghibli and and trying to achieve this

playing in a cartoon or playing in an anime look uh and it's just it's been

there from the start uh you know our art team has been very focused on it there's a lot of

iteration that happens when you think like is this close enough to the style is this too far from the

style so you know it's just uh it's just the commitment of the art team to to not just hit

that quality but to be consistent with it i think they've really done that yeah uh you know the the

the part i'm really excited about this game is you know it's coming out next week early access but

a year from now it's going to be a totally different game like how much

how much do you think it's going to be a totally different game i think it's going to be a totally

different game i think we're going to get to see based on the feedback from the community man for

you know 100 i mean that's the thing if the community doesn't like us we don't have a game

right like we're we're serving the player right like there's only so much of it that belongs to

us in the beginning where we where we're you know concepting the idea of putting it all together

doing all the work to kind of build it and then you hand it over the thing is is that if if we

don't have the mindset that the that the player is our customer or is our is the person that we're

there to serve then we're just building for ourselves and we're not actually building

for anybody to to be in and actually enjoy this this is a game it's supposed to be enjoyed it's

supposed to be delightful and and if if we hand this to the players and their first reaction is

like this isn't what i want we've missed the mark and and we've not done our our job so

now would it change from the perspective of oh i don't want it to be a side-scrolling ball or it's

now an over-the-shoulder third it's like no no no no that that we that that's not going to change

but where the game goes as far as content as far as new classes being added as far as

difficulty as far as the rewards and the challenges that's going to continue to grow

year over year based off of how the players interact what they tell us what they think

about it

um and and are they enjoying it yeah um yeah i can't wait to to to actually play this uh with

with the community and and see what you know what type of feedback we're gonna get to see

you know from from everybody i think that's what makes the games better man once you get feedback

to the developers man like i bet you they'll they probably will come up with ideas that you guys had

no idea right all the time i mean that's the thing is like players when you are making something you

have a you have this set of knowledge

hey i know what i want this to be i know what we're pursuing and it's got to feel like this

it's got to look like this and there's so many times where we've even sent this out you know

we'll send it over to xbox and they'll play and um their their play teams will send stuff back

and we'll look at that we'll be like oh dang that's actually a really good idea we've already

done stuff uh based off of things that we saw gamescom and things that uh testers have looked

at and said back to us the user research all that sort of stuff you can't possibly think of

everything um and you don't know how to do it you can't possibly think of everything um and you don't

know what people will always like or dislike and so being open to that hearing that and responding

to that i mean obviously there's some stuff you you get back you're just like that's cool

just either can't fit in the game as it currently stands and maybe it's a future idea

or you know maybe it's just like well that's neat but it kind of like that would make a lot

of players angry or wouldn't really connect and so you just kind of have to be wise and how you

hear that feedback and and action on that feedback yeah can you explain a little bit more about the

founders pack sure yeah yeah well what's the difference between the two the silver and the

gold yeah so the gold is the premier founders pack it has a bunch of cosmetics in it uh and

the silver is the uh lower version which has some cosmetics in it both of them get you access

into the game and get you playing right away on the

on the first day we wanted to provide multiple options for players to come in at the point that

they felt comfortable and we continue to reiterate here that you don't need to if you don't want to

it will be a free-to-play game when it launches but we want people who are excited about this game

to have an opportunity to come in early support us in the remaining development window like that's

pretty important and then feel like

i get a chance to have direct feedback to the developers so both those packs offer that option

and and the price points are set for how you feel you want to support stoic and towerborn

yeah uh this is very different now that you guys are going to free to play like how scary are you

guys when it comes to like making that decision it's free to play the thing is is that the thing

is is that there's so many different games out there that you can play and you can play a lot of

and they're all set at different price points there are many games that have been free that are

quite successful and quite kind and generous to their players and then there are other games that

are on the other end of that i think it's but you also have that in the 60 space and in the

100 space the reality is is that it is up to us to determine how we treat and respect our players

it doesn't matter if we put a huge price tag on it or we make it free to play our commitment is

being ethical to our players and we're not going to be able to do that if we don't do that

being responsible to our players and being good stewards of the game and the and the community

around that game it that's is that's where it boils down to and that's what we're committed to

yeah i would i would add to that that i mean this game we've been working on this game a long time

uh over five years and it was pitched it was originally pitched as a free-to-play game we've

never we've never strayed from that and we think that this game is powerful

and interesting when it has as many players as possible and so that's why you know a free-to-play

game can bring you that audience then it's our job to make sure it's uh entertaining and they

want to stick around and that we bring value to it and if someone says oh i won't yeah i want to

play towerborn but i'll never spend a cent on it that's fine that's fine we've we've made another

fan of a game and that's great and you know

at the end of the day that's really what we want to do that's good that's good now um let's just

say and this is my last question by the way uh let's just say i'm playing with my friends you

know everybody had different schedules maybe their levels is not the same as mine

and let's say i'm my level is higher up and my maybe the difficulty is gonna be a lot higher

than others how are you guys gonna balance that out with you know when when you have like a

situation like that where everybody has different type of levels

you can play with your friends they can join you we have a difficulty scaling system in the game

that we're also going to continue to work on forever but basically you can play at a lower

level with them and help them clear content or you could if you think you've got what it takes

you can carry them into more difficult content and and uh and try to keep them alive the best

you can now the loot isn't gonna scale in the way of like oh i'm a i'm level one and you're

level 70 loot it's like well hold on a sec there's gonna be loot that's scaling more appropriately

to to the player in that particular level so they can grow but you can help them get more experience

so they could level a lot faster um and then you guys can be playing together and so you have a lot

of options there to kind of set the difficulty uh relative to you and to your group yeah it

reminds me of playing this old school game fatty star line where yeah yeah i'll see people with

bands and items and i'm like man i just started yeah yep 100 well that's what we want we want you

to feel like there's something to aspire to and that there are people there who are going to help

you and and and you know play with you and help you get some of that uh sweet loot and solve some

of the bigger bosses and that sort of stuff like you could play it solo but why not play it with

others yeah i mean is it going to be too hard playing solo no no i mean if you're if you're

if you're blindfolded and set your controller down and just let everything kill you sure

i i don't think so i i play solo a lot when i you know um and certainly we're making some

adjustments so maybe it'll it'll get it'll get harder um but i think

it speaks to sort of the depth of the game it's a very approachable game like i said i i can put

the controller in the hands of nearly anyone and say hey just hit x or y and move around with your

left thumb stick every once in a while whatever and they'll be they'll have fun you know while

we're doing it

but the it's very deep as well so you will learn about the enemies you will learn what your weapon

can do you will learn about the combos that are most uh productive you will learn about the umbra

that you should take with you like we don't call it a strategy game but certainly i do think about

like i'm about to go do this mission it's going to be in this biome i might encounter these enemies

how maybe i should do something different with my loadout and think about that or maybe i want

to find somebody else to come with me

that might you know help balance me and and that sort of thing so i think it won't be too hard i

think it'll be a great challenge for people who like something like that yeah that's the exciting

part and there's that upper end too gets really difficult and so it becomes this measure of skill

and how much you've invested in your character and what you've collected and put on yourself so

there are points where i expect solo and groups uh to

to encounter a very difficult uh experience and then rethink what am i doing how am i playing

um have i mastered my my entire kit and my entire loadout am i appropriately geared for this

and i we i think we've sat down and talked several times about how we can't wait to turn on a twitch

stream and watch somebody do a a gearless deathless no hit run through some of the most

difficult content and i'm just gonna be like oh yeah get your popcorn ready just yeah i'm ready

yeah yeah for sure but uh thank you so much for for taking your time from your busy schedule and

uh yeah i'm excited to not only to play the game but i'm very curious to see like the community

what they're going to be doing with with the game and all that stuff also also watching us on like

twitch and youtube and all that stuff so it's gonna be a lot of fun i can't wait but you know

for those that are very curious about this game like and i know we explained a lot about the game

here during the interview but why do you why they should try out this game once it comes out

early access why not i think is the is where i stand it's i think at the core of it

we've tried to really just lean into fun uh which sounds like a nonsense word a lot of times well

what is fun and what does it mean but really the when we play it's about the feel of the controller

are we laughing are we having a good time did we feel like the game was fair to us did we feel like

it was appropriately challenging to us was it rewarding us

well uh whenever we get into groups and we're playing together and we're on we're on zoom or

we're sitting next to each other there's just a lot of laughter and banter and a lot of engagement

i think at the core of this we're not we're trying not to take ourselves too seriously

we're just trying to create something that really gets at the heart of why people love this type of

genre and that is we picked it up we played we had a good time and it just felt good it was okay to

put down and there wasn't a bunch of fomo around it that was like oh if i don't get back i'm gonna

it's like no no no vibe have a great time enjoy it and we just continue want to build on that

and um gosh and i hope people come in and try it and tell us and until we can get better at it and

fine-tune that yeah my answer is a little shorter it's fun it's super fun and you can play for five

minutes or five hours take your pick like it's a it's a lovely game in which you're like ah

maybe i just want to pop in and and just play for a little bit

and then you get sucked into it because you're like ah just one more time one more tile one more

mission um yeah at the end of the day it is fun it is fun um just a really fun game and that's the

hardest part about making games is is it fun yeah yeah well thank you so much for for uh for the

interview and everybody make sure to check out uh towerboard next week on steam and hopefully

very soon on xbox next early next year until next time guys take care

thanks for listening to gamertag radio be sure to like us on facebook and follow us on twitter

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