605 Poly change management

This is Polyamory Weekly, episode 605 for October 15th, 2021.

Coming up on today's show is Poly Change Management. That's coming up on today's show.

Hello, everyone. I'm your host, Minx, and sitting here with my favorite co-host, Lusty Guy.

Happy and lucky to be here, as always. And we can't ignore our now pre-annual co-host,

in the middle, being very quiet and well-behaved.

And, but, the puppy, Baloo.

Right after he licked the microphone.

Well, whatever.

Maybe we can get that audio in the Easter egg at the end of him sniffing and licking the mic.

Short memory, he's being good now.

He's being very good right now. Yes, he is. He's all curled up under our table and all ready to go.

Speaking of being ready to go.

Are we ready to go? Are you ready to go?

Yeah, we are actually, as we record this, it'll post a week later, but as we record this,

we are getting ready to...

To head out on a trip to Croatia.

Barring any more last-minute wrinkles and permutations.

There have been so many wrinkles. This has been...

I don't know how many of you have tried to travel internationally during COVID,

but it's a challenge. It is not for the faint of heart.

This trip has been on and off and on and off, and one version and another version,

two weeks and one week, and to this country and to that country.

I tell you, it's like a teen relationship. It's like, we're on again, we're off again.

No, now we're dating this person. No, we're dating... No, now we're not.

Oh, well, we will, but we're going to get a test.

But we're leaving, hopefully, in a few hours.

As of recording, the trip is on. We shall see.

I'm packing a raincoat because it's supposed to rain the whole time.

Oh, well.

Yeah, I'm very much in need of a vacation.

Burned out doesn't even begin to describe how I've been feeling for the last couple of months.

The fact that I'm able to function is a testament to my resolve and my adultiness,

because I really shouldn't be functioning right now.

Well, but you are.

You're just that tough.

There you go. Just that tough.

Welcome to the Politics Corner.

Today, we're going to come around to one of the topics that I find most disheartening about U.S. politics,

but it's something that has been true ever since.

I've been involved all my adult life, which is to say since the 1980s during the Reagan administration.

It was during that time that I noticed a strong consensus of polls

that showed the majority of people in the U.S. did not support Ronald Reagan's policies,

but the majority of people did strongly support Ronald Reagan.

You see, there's this disconnect between how people vote and what they say they think

consistently in U.S. politics for years.

If you ask most people what they think is most important and the issues that they agree with

or don't agree with, most people in the U.S. ought to vote Democratic, but they don't.

In fact, we live in a system where even though there wasn't a single Republican,

not one, who voted for the federal aid package to help people deal with COVID over the last year,

where a third of all voters in Southern states think the Republicans made that possible.

None of them voted for it, but they still get the credit.

This weird conflict between people's stated positions and what ought to be

and how they actually vote has baffled me for years.

Most recently, you can see Mitch McConnell, leader of the Republicans,

on one hand and one day saying that the U.S. must never default on its debt,

and he is confident that it never will,

and on the next day lead a filibuster against an attempt to make sure the U.S. did not.

He'll bear no electoral pain for that particular bit of hypocrisy, not in the slightest.

There's this huge disconnect between the rational thought of how we ought to vote

and the way we actually do.

Now, where does this all come out?

Frankly, it comes out in defense of partisanship.

When Mitch McConnell can flip like that, when most people vote completely independent

of their actual allegiance to position,

there's only one possible way to be,

and that way is in opposition to the party that denies reality,

that says that the 2020 vote,

eh, we really don't know what happened, it's something to be questioned,

who says that climate change isn't happening,

who actively worked to take away a woman's right to an abortion in Texas.

If nothing else, when you're playing on a field with voters who will vote for that regardless,

then those of us who can think a little bit,

gotta vote against that, regardless.

And if you have questions, comments, or feedback,

please call 802-505-POLY

or email polyweekly at gmail.com

and attach an mp3 file with your questions.

To book us or anything that involves a calendar,

please email lustyguy at polyweekly.com

This week we had a fun little chat with Dan and Dawn,

of course, we had a fun little chat with Dan and Dawn,

of the Erotic Awakening podcast that we talked to many, many years ago,

and I was really excited when they reached out to come back on the show again

to see how things have been going.

So without further ado, here is my interview with Dan and Dawn.

I am really excited to have back to the podcast,

Dan and Dawn from the Erotic Awakening podcast.

Welcome back.

Thank you.

So for those of you who are new to the podcast,

those who may not have been listening way back then,

Dan and Dawn have been a lifestyle couple since 2001.

They presented over a hundred events around North America.

They are also the co-host of the Erotic Awakening podcast,

which is an educational show that explores all things erotic since 2011,

almost as long as me.

And also co-founders of the Columbus Space and Alternative Community Center,

2016 MAST International Members Choice Presenter of the Year Award winner,

Dan and Dawn.

And Dan and Dawn have been a lifestyle couple since 2001.

And also co-founders of the Columbus Space and Alternative Community Center,

2016 MAST International Members Choice Presenter of the Year Award winner,

Dan and Dawn have been a lifestyle couple since 2001.

And also co-founders of the Columbus Space and Alternative Community Center,

2016 MAST International Members Choice Presenter of the Year Award winner,

Dan and Dawn have been a lifestyle couple since 2001.

And also co-founders of the Columbus Space and Alternative Community Center,

Great Lakes Region title holders,

Creators of the Scarlet Sanctuary and Path of the Kaddishti,

featured educators on both Kink Academy and Creative Sexuality,

and mentioned in a number of books, articles, and other media.

Welcome back to the show, folks.

Hi.

Hey, Minx.

How are you?

Okay.

Now quiz for you.

Do you remember the last time you were on Polly Weekly?

Time flies and has been really funky over the last couple of years.

It has been.

Yeah.

It has been.

I'm going to say 17 or 18.

I'm going to say 18.

2018.

I'm going to say 16.

I only know because I looked it up while we were having technical difficulties.

Episode 400, Polly for Introverts, September 1st, 2014.

Holy cow.

Wow.

How time flies.

Indeed.

And COVID has made me more of an introvert than ever.

Me too.

Definitely.

Well, I know you have another podcast recording live right after this.

So let's jump on.

Obviously, you've been doing fantastic work in the space for forever.

You mentioned that you have been talking about polyamory change management.

And because you have been podcasting and presenting and a couple for so long, I think it's something

that we don't talk about a lot.

We talk about Polly 101.

We've been talking about breakups a lot more in recent years.

A lot more folks are presenting on that.

Talk to me about polyamory change management.

So one of the things you come to realize, and like you said, Dawn and I have been not only co-hosting the podcast, but we've also been talking about polyamory change management.

So one of the things you come to realize, and like you said, Dawn and I have been talking about polyamory change management.

But within our polyamory spheres, we also have been partners with each other for over 20 years now.

We've got other partners that have been around from 12 years to seven years to very shorter amount of times.

And one of the things that came to us and it's not, you know, everybody talks about COVID as the big all these changes because of COVID.

But changes are part of being alive.

Change is just something that will continue to happen.

And if you're polyamory, can't handle change.

changes then you're just going to be constantly fighting against you know swimming upstream as

they say right some of some of us have a hard time with changes to begin with like i me personally

dawn i don't adapt well to changes so i've had to learn that about myself because in polyamory

it's exponential right you know all the partners that we bring in the partners that we have the

breakups the additions the moving of houses i mean just in the last three years we have moved

from a five-bedroom poly house with a partner with a partner that relationship ended so the

house was sold we've lost our business because of covid we actually had a partner die we had one of

my partners he sold his house and moved with his wife he's rving dan and i sold our house we're

rving i mean just so many changes

and if you're not resilient i guess and if you don't have tools in your tool belt it's going to

be so hard and it's not even that the big changes you know i mean obviously right now there's the

time of change for everybody over the last uh few two years or so but just the you know like

dawn mentioned that one of my partners and i broke up and we ended up selling the house but even that

continues it's not like my memory of and it's been a while since i've practiced monogamy but my

my memory of

monogamy is

is when I've ended relationships, they ended. Story over. In polyamory, at least you have that

opportunity. And I've been very fortunate to have very healthy breakups where my partner of 12

years, Karen, and I are no longer in a polyamorous relationship, but you get to keep that 12 years

of history and it just mutates. And now we have a new style of relationship. You guys learned how

to shift your relationship instead of end it. So, which is really, it comes in very handy because

the poly community is very small, right? You're going to run into each other again if you do poly

things with poly groups. So it's good that it ended, shifted that way. You know, one of the

things that really strikes me is I've had a partner I was dating that was a college student.

And now that same partner is a research professor.

And I'm like, oh, I thought you were talking about the other one that became the doctor's

assistant and married and we're still friends with her too. So again, it is our view that we as poly

people, you have to be very, even though things are wonderful and great, don't cling to that

wonderful, great moment because it will change. It's going to be something different. But that's

good because when things are bad, don't hold onto that either because things will change. Things

cycle around.

Change is going to happen. And I mean, we talk about some of the stuff in our book,

Polyamory Toolkit, and some of these tools can be used for that as well. When Big D, my boyfriend,

Big D, when him and his wife decided to sell their house and get in an RV and move, man,

that could have been so horrendous for me. And instead I had to not take things personally.

It had nothing to do with me, right? I had to not cling to what I wanted to be because that was not

going to happen. And I had to not cling to what I wanted to be because that was not going to happen.

So just things like that. It's like Dan said, avoid clinging to things. Instead, it is what it is,

and we're going to make it work, and it's going to work or not.

So it's a matter of cultivating those tools and those views that make adapting to change and

rolling with change and accepting change that gives us that opportunity to have this long-term

poly happiness. Is there anything easier in the world than interviewing fellow podcasters?

I think you asked one question.

Thank you.

I'm just sitting back. I've got a drink here. I'm good to go. I'm all good.

No, first of all, I have to say, I smell a lot of Buddhism coming off of this.

Oh, yeah. You're not wrong. You're not wrong.

And second, I mean, it's easy to say. I literally have change tattooed on my ass

to remind myself that the strength that we gain as humans is through our ability to embrace change,

even when it's hard. That being said, super easy to say, roll with the punches, really hard,

to do.

Right, because emotions happen. I mean, logically, it's like, you know, for me with Big D,

logically, it's like, okay, so, you know, just because he's moved away doesn't mean we don't

still love each other, you know, and things like that. And then out of the blue, emotions can smack

me in the face of, I really want to hug, and he's not around, you know, so things like that. So,

you know, emotions happen, but there's so many tools.

Yeah. And I do want to compliment you on that recognition.

A lot of this comes from my background in Buddhism, and Don and I ran a Buddhist group

here in Columbus for many years, and with 12-step recovery as well, which also takes a look at the

importance of being able to understand and embrace changes and not clinging to a particular view,

you know, one view or another. You know, if we were talking deep into Buddhism,

we could talk about emptiness and suffering and all that kind of jazz.

The importance of meditation.

We'll save that for the guys in the brown robes.

There you go.

And it's easy to say, but it's perfectly natural. If you have a partner that has sold their house,

say, and bought an RV, and you're just not going to be able to physically see them for a number of

weeks, months, or even years, of course, you're going to feel a sense of loss. In fact, you're

going to go through that, the grieving period, because that person is not, like, the role that

they played in your life isn't there anymore. They could still play a role, but it's going to

be different, and you have to grieve the loss.

Right.

Which isn't to say, you know, wallow in your misery.

But you also don't want to ignore those feelings or ignore what you had while you're trying to

appreciate what you still have. How do you do that?

Well, I'm just sitting here thinking about emotions again, right? So emotions of grieving,

and I'm staring at this one tool in our notes that I want to make sure that I throw out there,

which is, I don't even think we mentioned it in the book, but this one is very much about the

statement of, I don't know. When I asked Big D, so what do you see about this? Are we going to be

able to visit each other?

Because this was before we had decided to sell our house. I was like, you know, am I going to be

able to fly and meet you certain places? And his response was, I don't know. And I actually like

that response more than if he went, you know, started to describe things, and now they weren't

coming to pass. Right? So it's the same thing when Dan starts dating someone new, or I start

dating someone new. We would try to put people or experiences in a box and label it, and then get

totally frustrated. And then I would say, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I

don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to try to make it related if it leaked outside

of the box. Right. So instead I would rather Big D or Dan or whoever, any of my partners say,

I don't know. And then I can just let it go because I'm not holding onto this box that I think the

experience should fit in.

Yeah, absolutely. And I just think about how much anguish we create in ourselves and for our

partners. You know, when, like Dawn said, she'll come to me and say, oh, you're starting to see

Suzie Jo.

what's that like? And I say, well, it's just a play relationship. We're going to get together

once every two weeks. We're going to do some bedroom stuff and that's going to be it. And

then I'm taking Susie Jo to lunch the next week. And she's like, well, why are you taking Susie

Jo to lunch? You have a play relationship, not a lunch relationship. That's a different,

again, so we cling to these ideals and stuff. Instead, what Dawn was saying, this power of

saying, I don't know. I think it feels like this. I think it's probably just going to be,

don't hold me to it because emotions happen and I'm not exactly sure what's going to happen.

So part of that change management is simply saying, but I will keep you appraised if that's

important to you. Before I update my Facebook status that I'm dating somebody, I'll let you

know just so you don't have to read it there first, because we don't want, our partners don't

want us. Management of surprises. Yeah. This isn't just, that's just a given. You should

find out from Facebook who your partner is dating. You would think.

And that's just, you know,

a courtesy that we practice with all of our relationships and that, you know, what you were

saying before, there's that, that natural grieving and all that kind of stuff to recognize that

shit's okay. Take it out, look at it, let it sit with it. Right. If you have other partners around

and they're like, boy, you look a little grumpy, what's going on? Say, Hey, can you help me with

this? You know, can you come, can you work on this place of assistance is what we call that,

you know, where, yeah, I am grieving this relationship, even though logically I recognize

the relationship.

The relationship is simply changing. It's not over, but part of me says, this is what it feels

like when people leave me, when they abandoned me, when they run away. Right. You know, let logic,

I like to picture, again, this has got to reflect us being old people, but original crew Star Trek,

right? You have Kirk and Spock and McCoy and Spock's all about the logic, right? And he's like,

look, just because someone is moving to a new house doesn't mean they no longer love you.

It's a logistical thing, right? Maybe they have a new job and McCoy's all like, Oh my God,

I don't know what McCoy sounds like, but you didn't get the idea to sit in there and you let

both of those have a voice. And you say, neither one is completely true. And neither one is

completely false, but let me hear both of you and find somewhere where my peace is.

I also think that we have a tendency to try to avoid negative emotions. I actually just read,

Barbara Ehrenreich wrote a book on toxic positivity and I I'm spacing on the title right now, but I'll

put it in the show notes. I'm going to put it in the show notes. I'm going to put it in the show

notes when it comes to me. And it's true that, you know, there's so much focus on, you know,

being resilient and it's okay to feel broken for a while. It's okay. You know, if your relationship

changes in the way that you didn't want and that you're not, you're feeling that loss that it's

okay to be sad. It's okay to be depressed. It's okay to miss it. Obviously you don't want to let

those emotions, you know, take hold of you for long periods of time, but instead of trying to

chase them out with that toxic positivity, you know, maybe sometimes you don't need to

convince yourself in that first day or two that, you know, this is just a change. This is just a

change. Maybe you just let yourself be negative for a little bit. And then, because you know,

in the long run that it will be okay. Right. I always say this, like in the long run, I know

things are going to be okay, but right now I just feel crappy and I'm just going to feel crappy for

a little bit. And then I'll, you know, eat some ice cream and grump for a while and then I'll be

fine. I'll figure it out. Yep. You probably have better tools than that in your toolkit,

but Haagen-Dazs has got to be in there somewhere, right? You know, I've had my share of

Haagen-Dazs with changes. So like I said, I don't adjust well. And you know, one of my other

things is, is that I like to tell people is, and I think I've already mentioned this a few minutes

ago, was don't take things personally, right? Big D did not move from Dayton because he wanted to

get away from me. Him and his wife had other plans. It was something totally different. Dan

just did a weekend away with one of his partners. He just came back about an hour ago, right? That

is not for me to take personally. He is trying to cultivate,

his relationship with her because we have moved away. So yeah, don't take it personally.

And of course that gets credit to the four agreements by Don Michael Ruiz.

Don Michael Ruiz. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know that he knows we're perverting his work into polyamory terms,

but you know, I'm sure he doesn't mind. He won't take it personally. I'm sure.

And it's kind of funny. That was hilarious.

That was. Sorry. I already moved on to my other thoughts.

Thank you very much.

Because I want to, I want to get it in, but it's like, um,

so when we decided to move from Dayton to Dayton, we moved from Dayton to Dayton.

We decided to RV, which was, God, I think we decided on Memorial day weekend and here it is

September and we've already been doing it for two months. So it was, um, a very fast thing that

happened. And, um, one of Dan's partners was having a hard time with it. Cause we're going

to be moving from their area. So I took Dan aside and I'm like, so Dan, let me give you some hints

of things that you can do with your partner, because these are things that I would have liked

to have happened to me when big D moved, even though big D moved.

I don't know if he did it correctly for what our relationship was, blah, blah, blah. Right.

But I'm like, you know, I'm like, but here's some hints of things you could do because

Dan and I have never done long distance before. So we don't have the long distance skills.

We got, we got to figure these out and again, change. So we're trying to, trying to figure

it out. So I gave Dan some hints and I think he's been following up on them.

Absolutely.

So place of assistance.

I want to circle back to not taking things personally.

Mm-hmm.

Those things again, that is super easy to say.

Right.

Really hard to do.

Oh yeah.

Do you have any tools or any mantras or ways of looking at things that help with that?

I've got a mantra that I use for not taking things personally. And my mantra actually

works with a lot of things that, that triggers me. So, I mean, I I've got, um, PTSD, so I,

I get the whole, the, when the logic and the emotions don't line up perfectly, I get that

whole triggered out of control.

Right.

And so I had to come up with a mantra and mine is love, trust, faith. So if I can say

love, trust, faith, then I know things are going to work out. Okay. So not taking things

personally. So sometimes that mantra helps me with not taking things personally, because

my love, trust, faith puts my faith, not only in my partners, but in the universe.

And what that mantra does is right. When you are hit with these conflicting emotions, right?

Whether it's jealousy or abandonment or that.

Sort of thing. Right. It can lead a lot of negative self-talk. Right. So what Dawn will

do is regard, you know, try to get past all that.

It helps me reframe. Don't forget that word. Yeah. Reframe.

Reframe into, you know, just, you come back to this one little nugget, this little anchor

that you're holding on for Dawn it's love, trust, faith, right. For me, not taking things

personally, a lot of that has to do with, I'm a big fan of one of the most valuable

tools in polyamory for myself is developing a self-love.

Yeah.

Is developing a sense of self-confidence and I have to come to recognize that allows

me to say, even if, you know, you've decided you would rather go see the new Marvel movie

with your other partner, then go see it with me. Even though I kind of feel like that's

our thing. That's not about me. That is about how you want to do things. Here's a great

example, right? And it used to be Android versus iPhone. I don't think people care about

that so much anymore, but when they did, right, that used to be a big fucking deal, but you

know, creating these, these differences, right? Oh, you've got an iPhone, but I've

got an Android. Well, you're, you're an iPhone person. You're not something or whatever,

right? That's all illusion shit that we create. When you come to understand that there's a

great story about the man's got his children running around in the train and they're screaming

and hooping, hollering. And finally this woman comes up and says, look, can you just like

try and get your kids under control? You know, she's all pissed off because the guy obviously

can't, he's a rotten parent. And the guy looks up and he says, Oh, you know what? You're

right. We just came from their mom's funeral. And I've just, you know, I don't, I don't

know what to do right now. Things like that, that change your perception, know people's

stories, right? You don't know what the heck's going on. So that's for me is where don't

take things personally, where I work it in. Cause I don't really know what your deal is.

I only know what my perception of your deal is. And there's a big difference between that.

Yeah. And I think it's also important to think about what it is that you actually need when

situations change. I mean, you can't get the past back, right. But being able to say what

kind of support you need and

Mm-hmm .

as you say, I like the idea of reframing, you know, I'm fairly analytical and whenever

a new situation comes up, that wasn't my idea or that I'm not super fond of, or that has

obstacles to it. I do not toxic positivity, but I do tend to look for what is something

about this that I can look forward to, or that I can get excited about mm-hmm because

if I can get excited about something, it makes all that loss and pain a little bit easier.

That's a little trick that works for me.

Nice.

So mileage may vary.

There you go.

Right. But it's about that sort of self-knowledge and having your own emotional intelligence,

like knowing what you need to do or hear or tell yourself in order to help yourself through this.

And of course your partners can help as well.

And that only comes with time and experience. Not all of us were able to jump into poly and,

and just have all these skills right away. That would have been so nice.

Oh, nobody does. But then relationships are as only as valuable as what you experience together

and what you learn about yourself.

And each other through them. Right, right. Now, this has been fascinating. I know you

have another interview and I want to make sure you're on time for that. So Dan and Don

from Erotic Awakening, where can we find you and your work online?

Easiest place to go is to just head over to eroticawakening.com. There you will find all

kinds of stuff that we do like the podcast, books, presentations, workshops. We're doing

a lot of virtual stuff right now, obviously, but we're hoping to be back in person at some

point.

Absolutely.

We're hoping to get back to our newsletter, get on our discord, all kinds of stuff.

You know, I so miss teaching in person. I really, really do.

No kidding. Absolutely.

It's been so long. And by the way, a little plug for your show, they actually talk about

sex and kink, which we don't tend to do on this podcast so much anymore. Yeah. So if

you want something a little juicier, head over to Erotic Awakening.

We just don't, we don't just say fuck. We do fuck.

You do fuck. Yes.

That could be our new catchphrase, honey.

There you go. All set.

Thank you.

All set.

Thanks again, Dan and Don, for joining us today. Always a pleasure to talk to you. Let's

not make it seven years next time. Okay?

Fantastic. Thank you.

Sounds like a deal.

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That's what it should be.

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Or now on TikTok as at Cunning Minx.

Our listener question this week is from S, who says, I'm writing because I'm torn about

whether or not to continue a romantic relationship.

About seven years ago, before my husband P, he, him, and I got married, I developed strong

feelings for a good friend and coworker J, he, him.

These feelings clearly went both ways and they were impossible to ignore.

So I started looking into ethical non-monogamy.

I read Sex at Dawn and talked with P about polyamory a bit before we tied the knot.

I was torn about whether or not to go through with it.

I was torn about whether or not to go through with the marriage, but I ultimately chose

monogamy with P with the understanding that we were to open to E and M in the future.

At this point, every experienced polyamorous or non-monogamous person who is listening

goes, oh.

Well, they did write the letter for a reason, right?

Right.

That's right.

At the time, I didn't understand poly was an orientation for me.

The tension with J continued for years, but we were able to stay friends until a couple

years ago when we fell out of touch due to my having a baby and moving a bit further

away.

We reconnected a couple months ago and I learned that he'd broken up with his girlfriend of

five years.

Pretty much as soon as we learned we were both available, things became romantic.

It's been so amazing to reconnect with him and my feelings are as strong as ever.

I was seeing one other person besides P at the time, but he ended things just the other

day for unrelated reasons.

J is dating multiple other women casually.

He asks a lot of questions about polyamory and seems generally intrigued by it.

I know from his history that he feels stifled by monogamy, but he hasn't told me that he's

interested in practicing polyamory.

He's expressed that he's happy to see me whenever I'm able, even if that means bringing my toddler

along sometimes, and he seems to be as head over heels for me as I am for him.

But he's also out a lot on dates and every time he is I feel anxious that he's going

to end things with me the next day because he's met the one.

I feel sure at some point J will want to be monogamous with someone else he meets.

He's been honest with himself and me about the fact that he truly doesn't know what he

wants right now, relationship wise.

Since he's still processing his breakup, I care about him so much that I'm willing

to accept the likelihood of a sudden end date for this relationship.

Do you have any advice about how to protect both of us from being seriously hurt by this

situation?

So to answer the question you actually asked, how do you minimize pain?

You minimize pain by minimizing intimacy and minimizing joy.

With joy comes the pain.

Falling for somebody and being intimate with someone and interweaving your life and emotions

with theirs is how you build love and how you build joy.

If you want to minimize the pain of loss, then you have to minimize the intimacy.

If you go the Buddhist way, which I'm by no means an expert in, you accept the joy for

what it is and accept the intimacy while you have it for as long as you have it and then

you accept the pain and you appreciate both of those for what they bring you.

However, there's questions you didn't ask.

It's unclear to me what is up with P in all of this.

Did you and your husband actually talk?

Is he good with?

Is he good with consensual non-monogamy?

Is he down with this?

Does he know that you and Jay have reconnected?

One of the ways you might be able to minimize pain, speaking from a more practical stance,

is to have those difficult conversations with both P and Jay about best and worst case scenarios.

Talking through things and acknowledging the risks with your partners and about what might

happen can bring some people comfort.

What say you, Mr. Guy?

Well, I'm going to agree with pretty much everything you said because I'm smart and

within range.

There's that, just to say first of all.

You know what?

Congratulations on experiencing what I can, and I'm not going to say this dismissively

but admiringly, only call a big dose of NRE.

Good for you.

I'm glad that you're having fun.

Yeah.

I'm glad that you're head over heels and enjoying yourself, so a little brava to that.

Now, like Mink said, pain is the other side of pleasure.

Yeah.

The only way to guarantee that you're going to minimize your pain is to make sure that

you don't invest in this relationship.

That may not be worth the pain then of not investing in this relationship.

Now, there are things that you can do if stuff goes south to minimize your experience of

pain at the time, stuff like focusing on where you are now, on framing it in ways that don't

involve blame, and doing stuff like that.

But that's all after the breakup, and it presumes one, and let me say now to step outside of

what you've directly asked and address what I think I see really between the lines because

I have that little dose of ego.

There is a famous saying that was said in anger around households that I grew up all the time

in, which is to say, might as well be hanged for a murderer as a thief, which is to say

if you're getting blamed for everything all the time, if you're getting accused for something

all the time, you might as well go all the way in.

It's another way of saying that our fears actualize in relationship.

Yeah.

relationships. Show me the thing that you're worried about all the time. And you're always

talking with your partner about, and you're always accusing them of doing it. And eventually

they're going to do it. So if you were constantly worried that he's going to find the one,

and you're always talking about how afraid you are that he's going to find the one,

and it's making you jealous whenever they go out, then he's probably gonna find the one.

So just accept it and get over it. It's also true that as I look at things, when you say that he's

dating multiple people that you know about, and I'm going to presume they all know about each

other. It's consistent with the pattern here. I don't understand why you say he's not practicing

polyamory. Looks to be to me. Is it because you don't think there's true love involved with the

others? So what is it about what he's doing that isn't practicing polyamory right now would be a

question that I have for you. And in terms of addressing the relationship, really the best

thing that you can do to avoid the pain of polyamory is to avoid the pain of polyamory.

Breakup is minimize the odds of a breakup. And one of the ways of doing that is to contribute

to everybody being versions of themselves, better versions of themselves. While you're

stressing and worrying about him finding the one, you're not going to be doing that.

That's true. You're not really, you can't really be present there for yourself and your partner.

If you're worried about that all the time, it's not to say the fear isn't valid. I mean,

it could happen certainly, but like all the rest of our fears, you have to face into it and learn

how to be effective.

In the presence of it. So I would say to you to work on reframing that fear. One of the things

that I have done oftentimes in the face of that fear is think about how if they were to find

somebody who was better for them than me, who they really wanted to be monogamous with, who being

monogamous with would fulfill them in a way that being non-monogamous never could. If I truly love

them, my answer would have to be good on you, right? Love is doing the right thing when it's hard.

If it would be better for them to be,

with someone else than me, I should support that happening even when it's hard, if I love them.

So if you can start to reframe that fear instead of a fear, but as an opportunity to do the right

thing when it's hard, it'll reduce some of that fearful power of it based on my experience,

because I think doing the right thing when it's hard is one of the most important things that we

can do as people. So I'm going to say, think about what you mean about practicing polyamory and why

this person isn't. I'm going to underscore Minx's comments about making sure that you include your

husband and that really the only way to diminish pain is to diminish entanglement, while also

saying that there are some techniques post-event you can do to help diminish your experience of

pain. Things like centering yourself, being where you are now, not framing the issue in ways that

blame you, and framing the issue in ways that try to make it positive, particularly if they're doing

what's right for them and you are supporting them in doing that.

Yeah. Even the relationships I've had that ended and ended in a way that made me very unhappy for a

long time, I'm still really glad that I had them. I mean, it takes a while to get to that point,

but I'm so much happier that I had them than if I had chosen not to do them because of fear of loss,

which was substantial for at least one of them.

Our feedback today is from HerbalWise, and we haven't heard from her for a long time.

She writes in to say, enjoying the podcast again,

BTW, I personally like the political segment as I'm getting more and more involved and especially

the historical connotations. I'm in the middle of a movie that's kind of amusing you may like if you

haven't seen it. I just realized that it can be interpreted as a poly movie with the full knowledge

and consent of all the characters, sort of. Should be a quad, but due to jealousy turning out to be

a triangle. Bit of a spoiler there, but not much. Very different, but a light movie. As I said,

I'm in the middle, don't know how it comes out. I'm in the middle, don't know how it comes out.

Hope they don't blow it. It's from 2014. The one I love. Got the DVD from Netflix. A DVD. Wow.

Haven't seen one of the, well, apart from my yoga DVDs, I should say, but I haven't rented a movie

DVD in a while. Keep up the fabulous podcast and glad to hear y'all are getting to have some fun

times and travel. Aloha, HerbalWise. And I'd like to welcome our newest poly weekly playmate, NS,

who joined at the lowest level, just a buck.

It's not all about the sex.

It's about the sex.