Episode #264 with Extreme Sports Psychotherapist Chloe Svolakos

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www.skydiveradio.com from sebastian florida skydive radio number 264 for october 9th

2023 i'm dave and i'm stump and we are

you

actually we're joining the lefkowitz you're not joining us we're in your home that's right i kind

of felt like can you talk into the mic oh yeah you normally say from the way well it's it's the

home studio we're in the home studios i feel like it's the home this is something from the sage

studio yeah i like that yes i like that that is why we're here because sage is in bed yeah that's

right so welcome steve and jeanette thank you for being here and we also have joining us tonight

chloe and i is it i i tried all day

all day what how do i pronounce your last name i do appreciate that though what is it

svalakos svalakos chloe svalakos and chloe we're gonna feel free to jump in at any time

but we wanted to record a feature interview with chloe about kind of her business that she's

running which is very interesting but i thought it would be even nicer to do it with this group

of people so when we get to that point we're gonna get deep into everything that you're doing chloe

that's right and thank you for honoring me just being in your home oh yeah honor

so it uh nationals report steve yeah uh well i guess i was there too but i was in the airplane

the whole time so let's uh can we get a breakdown of of uh 2023 nationals yeah

we were there for the fs stuff so i should just acknowledge there's there was like a month of

of nationals that's true there were other things i did notice their schedule was surprisingly

spread out uh-huh is it was it more than usual oh when we do it in chicago it's usually two weeks

to get through everything uh-huh and and you have all the same things you're not you're not

so we have in the past we don't do cp anymore and they did do cp so maybe that maybe that does

make sense if they're but we do we did every other event and we did style and when style

was still going we do that yeah so and i did notice too that it seemed like there was not

as much overlap like in chicago and maybe that was kind of nice i don't know how did how did

you guys like that it just it felt not as crazy yeah yes except i definitely felt like i missed

seeing the vfs people because they were already gone because they were gone yeah yeah um yeah and

and and those are people i like too so hey they definitely miss seeing yeah them and then

on the other end as well you know like as i'm wrapping up i'm not really seeing what was after

fs you don't care what was that no recollection man i don't i think oh that's right that's right

because there were there were some wingsuiters that showed up yeah i think that was the the

main difference i noticed was it wasn't it wasn't like there was four and five airplanes going every

day all day maybe that maybe that's good yeah i mean i was kind of surprised because because

there have been nationals before where four-way starts on monday and usually people show up

thursday or friday and there's a lot of training friday and saturday and sunday are like super busy

and i felt like this year like saturday wasn't even as busy as i expected it like i feel like

people didn't come in till saturday night sunday they came in later and then sunday was a weather

day right yeah but not too bad the morning there was i mean there were people there but

i wonder if either maybe it's easier to travel to paraclete than other places that have had

to start on monday or i also wonder about the prices like jump prices are up yeah people have

been spending a lot of money to train and maybe they just think well maybe i don't know i'm curious

about why um i saw training happening but it was like almost like it was on its own days because

because the calendar was so spread out like normally we would be in the middle of an event

we might be doing like artistic free fly and then maybe vs fest is also training that same day and

i think that was what i didn't see much of yeah yeah i was just surprised at how easy like usually

you get there early and you can train a little bit and then as it gets closer

you're lucky to you know like you're like we'd like to do four jumps but then all of a sudden

the calls are long i mean maybe also they were just really good but it just felt like it was

you could do whatever you wanted as far as training and there was like not that many people

there on thursday or friday i thought yeah true well i i thought it was great overall it was

awesome like like they they run a really good training and they're not that many people

that's great um uh also the weather man i mean there's just no replacement for having like lots

of sunny days yeah you know also i think uh randy did a good job of you know when it was like the

the the rare day later in the week when it was clearly going to be bad weather and he was like

all right guys i'm going to make a decision early and then he called it for the whole day

where you know it doesn't always happen like that right well that could also be the schedule they

had enough of those days built in that they could maybe afford to do that yeah

to be fair like the weather was so clearly not going to be good so so it was easy to make that

decision yeah but um yeah you know the competitors love it when they're not possibly going to jump

hour after hour after hour you know um and then and yeah it was super sunny and for the majority

of it and everything sort of started on time and finished quickly and um and uh it just everything

was smooth you know clearly communicate i just i thought it was a really great national thing

and personally had a lot of fun so i was thinking

while i was there well and you guys do a lot of traveling around you know this like there's

the level of professionalism of drop zones is on a spectrum you know and i feel like skydive

chicago is one of the most professionally run ones but also empirically very very well run

yeah yeah like they don't they don't screw around with stuff they just do it right so yeah i mean

there's there's just a handful of people there that have a ton of experience jumping running

drop zones competing not just one person like i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know

there's a lot of experience there and it really shows yeah and then they bring in they have that

and then they bring in experience for the event too it's yeah so any any uh reminiscing about

your nationals yeah so personally so the four-way was fun um i got to jump with people i really

enjoy so so that was really great and then eight way i did a i did a player coach team where i

filled in for the team that keith had been keith from rhythm had been jumping with all year

uh i did one weekend with them before and then we did national we came in second nice in intermediate

which is really cool especially there was a couple people who had never done eight way before let

alone it being their first competition you know um so that was super cool um and then it did 16

way and 10 way with sort of the like kind of the pros and stuff and and that was good so 16 way

on my last jump i lost my shoe

this is not steve and jeanette describe your jump by the way this actually no this this happened

and um right out the door you know on 16 way it was 16 way how do you lose your shoe uh you hit

your foot on the door as you're coming out you know the 16 way the entire group at least the

way we do it uh leaves connected so you've got like how many outside i guess it depends on which

point you're launching you do five plus three i think it might be eight outside

mm-hmm if you're going to jump you're going to jump you're going to jump you're going to jump

you're going to jump you're going to jump you're going to jump you're going to jump you're going to jump

i remember correctly an eight inside wow um visualize that yeah yeah you kind of pretty

amazing you know if you're familiar with like the eight-way exit there's sort of the standard

eight-way exit and then i think there's sort of three people kind of in between people

uh on the outside with really long arms hopefully and then on the inside you got a couple people

sort of in between the people that are the inside people and then and then you got a bunch of people

on the back that are just kind of riding that sounds almost like a magic carpet launch where

you're just like holding on for your life you're in the inside

the way back you're just kind of like got your head tucked down in between hips and just hold on

and ten ways sort of that way too yeah uh it's got that quality it's a little different because

because you let go right out the door and and there's and not not everyone is intact usually

the standard 10-way is is a four-way diamond maybe with one person tacking on to that so say

five people intact but you sort of have three floaters and i think that leaves uh three more

or yeah a diver something like that two divers two divers yeah yeah well

two divers if you don't include the diver who's caught on yeah that's right that's right um

so there's three yeah anyway um uh similar but so i lost my shoe but that's that's okay it was an old

shoe um and then there was the other drama uh during 16-way i think that was after you left

right i left before they had done i flew a load or two of 16-way practice yeah and then i left

the next morning yeah so there was

the 16-way was the most dramatic event regard not because of the competition

or the competitors but because the plane stalled oh on on on one of the

competition runs wow you know so um people literally tumbled out when that happened

and they got a re-jump and the plane was okay and everything was okay but that's that's quite a

unexpected experience you know um and then

the bar bent as well um i don't know if it was on that jump or or the inside bar the inside bar

bent and so they didn't necessarily recognize that it was an issue uh when they closed the door

to ride up on i believe the next load but when it came time to raise the door they couldn't because

the bent bar was somehow jamming up so they had to come back down so they had to come back down

oh wow and exit the other door

right i think they had to open the baggage door to get out of the airplane oh wow um i don't know

if it's a baggage door is it is it i don't think it's the baggage door it's the it's the other side

door yeah yeah okay okay okay um because there's also a door inside the hole right but anyway yes

i know what door you're talking okay okay yeah the one right across from familiar with the plane

the exact door is crucial to this story people cannot walk away misunderstanding which door we're

talking about

so that happened you know but i think you know also i mean i mean even the train teams for 16

way aren't like super serious you know and while that's definitely a stress it's also i think

people people took it really well you know so they went they got three jumps it used to be really

only one right it was deguayo the team out of texas wasn't that like the only team that really

actually trained 16-way is that yeah i think that was pretty true for a while yeah yeah now

the guillo doesn't hasn't continued the guayo stopped several years ago but i

I believe there were two.

Was there two trained teams?

Yeah, maybe.

The Dallas team and then Craig and Eliana's team.

Yeah, which is also out of Texas.

I thought it was out of Paris.

Are they?

Yeah, I'm not sure.

But anyway, there's two trained teams.

And that was exciting because I think they were kind of close for a while.

But you still beat them.

Yeah.

Well, good for you guys.

Yeah, yeah.

And the 10-way.

The 10-way was we had two very good teams.

So that was exciting too.

And last year, we came in third.

And it was a blow to many of our egos that that happened.

And I take actually personal responsibility for it.

When you say the pros are on the 16-way team,

who is it we're talking about?

Is it basically like the airspeed guys?

You got airspeed guys.

So the airspeed four-way.

You got the XP8.

So they're the.

World champion eight.

So basically, you have the world champion four-way team,

the world champion eight-way team,

and then several other people.

You know?

Yeah.

Tough to compete against that.

Mm-hmm.

But really fun to be on it.

It's fun.

It's really fun.

I'm sure it is.

Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

Yeah.

And there's no end of shit that you will get

if you make like even little mistakes, you know?

But in a fun way.

In a fun way.

But anyway, so last year with 10-way,

I actually personally made.

Two unforced errors

that I think contributed significantly to us not winning.

So anyway, so.

Yeah, you were invited back.

I know, honestly.

Not that he remembers or anything.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, honestly, I was a little surprised

that I was invited back.

Yeah, because I was.

I was just waiting a little bit to see.

But I was.

And I even, I was like,

I won't mess up like last year.

And this year,

I think everybody was like a little angry from last year.

It was like.

I mean, in a fun way.

You know what I mean?

Just like, this is not going to happen again.

You get one more chance.

Yeah.

No, but yeah.

Yeah.

And it was good.

I know we've talked about this before,

but 10-way is the only event that appeals to me.

Like, I don't have a very competitive nature.

It's funny.

But there's something about 10-way

that it's just like,

it's like drag racing.

Yeah.

You know, it's like,

just get there as fast as you can.

Like.

Yeah.

That appeals to me for some reason.

It's funny.

And I remember years ago trying to talk you,

into doing 10-way with me at nationals

and you refusing because,

oh, it's too dangerous.

Yeah.

True.

Yeah.

That's all true.

Yeah.

I mean,

truthfully,

it's a lot of fun,

but it's also the thing I least want to do.

It's sort of at the end of the competition,

you know,

you're kind of like,

you build up so much for four-way,

there's a certain amount of stress for eight-way,

16-way is fun.

And then by 10-way,

you're a little bit like,

kind of ready.

Like you're tired,

you're sore.

Yeah.

I'm sore now.

I don't get sore,

but to me,

it feels like,

it feels like the end of the party

and you probably should have left,

but you're having a good time

and you want to stay.

The lights are on,

but you still want one more drink,

you know?

A lot of people have left.

There's not.

Yeah.

But it is fun.

It is fun.

It's a lot of fun.

And then the other cool thing about 10-way

is the after.

Yes.

Oh,

yes.

The after,

what do you call that?

Judge's choice.

Yeah.

Can you explain that for listeners

that might not know what that is?

Yes.

So you leave from like,

I think 11,000 feet

and you're trying to make one point.

So,

you know,

for us,

we would make that one point

often in like 10 seconds,

sometimes even a little bit better,

but,

and then you've got five seconds

we're going to hold it,

right?

So you basically have used up 15 seconds

where,

you know,

if you're going to break off at four or five,

you probably have around 40 seconds

to say,

give or take.

So you've got like 25 more seconds,

you know?

So what,

is the tradition,

not just,

not just us,

but everyone who does this

is they kind of come up with like,

almost like a little skit,

like a little silly thing to do

after they've made the formation

in that extra time.

And,

usually it's meant to be kind of like funny

and creative,

you know?

Not necessarily like some,

some fast set of formations,

you know?

And yeah,

it's a lot of fun.

People have a good time

and you kind of hope that,

that when people watch it,

they'll either be like,

well,

that's really cool

or laugh,

you know?

So it's things like,

playing tennis back and forth

with one person.

Like you have a line of people

making the net

and then one guy might hit you

and you go,

yeah.

Pongs are really,

yeah,

exactly.

That's like a thing that kind of,

people do a lot.

One of the things that,

that people really,

really enjoyed that we did

that was like,

maybe among the most memorable

is we made this

sort of just coil,

you know?

So basically just this long cat,

right?

People grab it

into each person's legs

and it sort of,

it sort of snaked

in a,

in a somewhat vertical way,

you know?

Like I had this kind of cool level

to it as well too,

right?

So the lowest person at the tail

was,

was quite lower

than the highest person

at the,

at the head

and that person at the head

was me

and I was supposed to be

the head of this snake.

So the videographer

kind of gets down

and he sort of like

runs up this coil

and then you get to me

and I'm doing this

like ridiculous

kind of viper face.

So it kind of looks like this.

It's kind of like that.

My tongue is sticking out.

This works perfect

for an audio.

But it's like my tongue

is sticking out

and I've got like my fingers

as if they're kind of like fangs

and they're kind of shaking

and it's so dumb

and,

but the thing about it

like is dumb period

but what was,

I thought to me

the most amusing thing

was that

it went on for so long

because we had to

we had all this time

so there's this point

at which like,

it's like I'm looking

at my altimeter,

you know,

and the camera guy

is still looking at me

and I'm like,

oh,

really?

You know,

like,

do you need more viper?

You know,

but then,

but then we landed,

we landed

and this was in Eloy

and you,

in Eloy,

the,

there's sort of a fishbowl

where the judges are watching

so you can watch

the judges watch the video.

Oh,

that's fun.

Yeah.

So,

for this particular one,

the judges are all watching

the 10 way.

Then of course,

they watch this afterwards

and they're all laughing

and I knock on the glass

and they turn around

and I do that same look

and they just cracked up,

you know?

So,

personally,

I think that's memorable

but that's the one

that most people will like

mention to me,

you know?

And that was,

what was it,

2020,

I think?

I don't know,

it was a couple years ago,

you know?

It wouldn't have been 20,

anyway.

It wouldn't,

yeah.

That's right.

I think it might have been 2021.

Not that year.

Why not?

Yeah,

probably 2021.

Well,

so successful nationals.

Yeah,

definitely.

And I don't think

there were any serious injuries.

I'm like,

pretty certain.

Yeah,

I'm going to say,

I'm going to say no.

It's great.

Which is really good.

Yeah.

I had fun flying there.

Those guys always,

I've done a few contracts

there over the years

and they take care

of the visiting pilots

really well there.

Had to be in a nice house,

nice vehicle to drive.

Good restaurants there.

Ate with you a few nights.

Yeah.

It was very enjoyable.

But I think my most memorable thing

from the trip was,

I stopped,

I stopped by the tunnel

because I was staying in Fayetteville

and the tunnel was like

halfway between the drop zone

and Fayetteville.

And anytime I've been there

in the past,

I've never had time.

And I was,

they had cut me loose early

at like two o'clock.

They were done for that day.

And so I was on my way back

to the Airbnb

and I got to the stoplight

at the tunnel

and looked at it.

I was like,

man,

I've never been to that tunnel.

I'm just going to walk in

and say hi

because I probably know

some people that work there.

You know,

I know Dalton,

Charlotte.

So I turn into the parking lot

and I walk in

and,

uh,

Dalton's there

and we talked for a little bit

and I was like,

hey,

is there any chance

you can like show me

the innards of it?

I,

you know,

I just wanted to like peek

in a couple doors.

He took like an hour

and showed me through,

like we were in every part

of that tunnel.

And it felt like being,

um,

a lot of those places

felt like,

like have you ever been

in a concert venue

and you like look up

into the,

into the rigging works

and there's like all these

little catwalks

and stuff up there.

It felt very much

like that.

That's cool.

Um,

he had me up on the roof.

He had me down

in the basement.

The basement was really cool

because we were down there

while it was running.

And so we were like laying

on the turn vanes

and watching people fly.

That was really,

really cool.

Really neat.

Um,

yeah,

it's cool to be flying

in there and look down

and you're like,

Oh,

yeah.

And then we were up

to the very top looking down.

It's like,

Holy smokes.

It is.

It's a long way.

Yeah.

It's actually telling me

about an accident

that happened at some tunnel

where one of the

instructors flew up

and was like hanging

onto the vanes

and the tunnel

wasn't Orlando,

but yeah,

quit.

Yeah.

And he,

like the other people

that were up there,

they realized that it

was slowing down.

So they flew down

right away,

but he held on

and he was hanging there

and ended up falling

all the way down

to the net

and getting injured.

Yeah.

He could only hold on

for so long

and they were up on top

trying to grab,

but they couldn't really

get their hands through.

So at Pericle,

they have a,

uh,

there's a rope up there

for if that happens,

they can feed a rope

through those turn veins

and give somebody

something to hang on to.

Oh,

I didn't know that.

Alton pointed that out

to me too.

It's like a climbing rope.

Oh wow.

What is that?

Where do you store that?

It's,

I mean,

it's in,

it's like beside the tunnel.

If you imagine

the very top of the tunnel

on both sides of that,

there's still a lot of building

and it's like up there,

there's a catwalk

on either side of it.

And so you could,

you can like basically get up

and open a hatch

and stick it in there.

So someone would have to go

and actually feed it through.

You're not going to feed it there.

It's,

no,

it's,

it's like rigged up,

but it's not in the tunnel.

Like somebody would have to get it.

You'd have to hold on long enough

for somebody to run up there

and get that rope fed to you.

You probably have to.

I mean,

the ingenuity around that

is just smart.

Yeah.

But that was really cool.

Dalton,

if you're listening,

thank you very much.

I was really glad.

They have a secret break room.

Do you have a secret break room?

Do you know they have

a secret break room?

It's not a secret now.

I know they have a break room.

Well,

yeah,

I mean,

maybe it's not secret,

but it felt very Batcave to me.

Yeah.

Okay.

It's like,

you know,

you go through this door

that like is employees only

and then it's like in this corner

of the tunnel

that's all kind of unfinished,

you know,

and they've got a fridge there.

Yeah.

Lockers and stuff.

Yeah.

And then that's where the hatch is

to go down to the basement.

Okay.

So you're like,

it's like a submarine hatch

or something,

except it's square

and you open it up

and there's,

it was really cool.

I really enjoyed that a lot.

That's neat.

It's a great tunnel.

They also,

they spoke very highly of Dave.

I didn't tell you this,

but-

At the tunnel?

No,

no,

not at the tunnel.

They would not speak highly of him.

No,

I'm just joking.

No,

no,

at Nationals,

at the drop zone,

I was talking with someone

who was running,

one of the people running the event

and he was like,

you were just left

and he was like,

he was like,

you know,

there's certain people

who they show up pilots

and it's like,

you know,

you're going to get nothing

but professionalism from them.

You know,

absolutely like,

don't have to worry about it

and they're going to be an example

to everyone else

and raise the level.

Wow.

That wasn't you.

That's not Dave.

There are some people.

No,

I'm just joking.

I appreciate that.

There's some people like that.

Dave isn't quite,

I don't know.

No,

that's what he said about you.

That was nice.

Yeah.

I'm all,

I'm all blushing.

Yeah.

Oh,

I have,

I don't know if I told you guys this story yet.

I think the,

the week before nationals,

I'm flying at SDC

and manifest,

I'm climbing through like maybe 7,000 feet

and manifest calls up and says,

hey,

we just want you to know

there's a car on the runway.

We don't know what's going on.

Oh,

yes.

But like,

we're just,

we're just letting you know.

And I was like,

well,

I'm still climbing.

It's fine,

you know?

And so I'm thinking,

wow,

that's kind of weird.

Yeah.

And I had ordered a door dash

and I jokingly said,

I hope that's not my door dash driver,

you know?

And they laugh.

Max was like,

ha ha,

you know?

Well,

on the way down,

they're like,

we just want to let you know

the car's off the runway.

I'm like,

well,

what was the story?

And they go,

it was your door down.

Yeah.

How insane is that?

How crazy is that?

Like,

for those of you

that have not been

to Skydive Chicago,

there is a progressive number

of increasingly obvious things

that you have to drive by

that you are clearly

in the wrong spot

before you get to the runway.

Well,

if you're just looking

at your phone

and following the dot,

then you won't see those.

Well,

no,

I mean,

there's not even road anymore.

Yeah.

It's taking you

to the parking lot.

You know what I mean?

And right in the note,

it's like,

deliver to the office.

She drove past the parking lot.

Into the gravel.

Went across the south side

of the hangar.

No,

she didn't go through the gravel.

She had to go

across the south side.

No.

She went across

the south side of the hangar.

Okay.

And then,

you know,

the taxiway is there

where we pull the airplanes up

to go in the back door.

Oh.

She turned

and got under that.

Yeah.

Got to the T,

to the other taxiway

where there's landing area

right in front of her.

Right,

right,

right.

It didn't occur to her

at that point yet.

So,

she took a right

and drove down

in between the landing area

and the spectators.

Didn't realize

that wasn't a road.

And then,

the big one,

she passed the otter

that was shut down

in loading area three.

But,

she had that,

her car,

she practically

would have had to have turned

to get around the airplane.

It's like,

big airplane

right there.

Then,

gets out onto a tarmac

with no markings.

Then,

passes a

hold short line

which doesn't look like

any road painting

you've ever seen.

You've never seen

in your life.

And then,

turned and went

halfway down the runway

before Rob chased her down

on the Kubota

and was like,

what are you doing?

He's like,

I'm delivering this food

for Dave.

That is awesome.

I gotta say.

Her phone was attached

to your phone

and following you

down the runway.

Well,

that's what a couple

people said.

Well,

maybe it was like,

no,

that's not how it works.

You put an address in.

How many tens

of thousands of people

that have never been

to Skydive Chicago

have followed their GPS

to that parking lot

and not ended up

on the runway?

Yeah.

It still just

blows my mind.

I mean,

I think I feel like

it's exactly out of

like the office

or something,

you know?

It is tremendous.

That's a hilarious story.

Okay.

Boy,

we've been talking a lot.

Let's move to

our first sponsor.

It is Shooting Star.

And today,

Mike is going to talk

about a reline

gone bad.

Hey,

Mike,

how's it going

down there

at Shooting Star today?

It is going

great.

We're still

plugging along

and just

am happy

that our

employees

still like working

here because

I can do it

all myself.

We had a listener

reach out to us.

He wants to

remain anonymous.

But this

jumper

took their

canopy

to their

local rigger

to have it

relined rather

than sending it

back to the

manufacturer

for a reline.

He didn't say

what type of canopy

it was.

But since

that was done,

they've been having

some pretty frequent

uncomfortable openings

and I guess a couple

of real bell ringers.

They say it flies

and flares as normal,

but these opening issues

they had never had

before this reline.

So the question is,

is it possible

that the line set

could have been

improperly installed

and that's what's

causing hard openings?

Or,

like,

how can they go about

figuring out

what's going on

with their

parachute?

That's what they're

really trying to find out.

So,

the first thing

that I'd recommend

is definitely

get with the rigger

that did it.

I mean,

give the guy

or the girl

the benefit of the doubt

to, like,

you know,

go to them

and say,

hey,

look,

this canopy,

it's flying

seems great,

it's flaring great,

but just tell them

everything you've

experienced

and let them

help you

and or

talk with the

manufacturer

to see if there's

something,

that,

you know,

either the line set

could have been

made wrong,

you know,

and the rigger

put it on great,

but maybe something

was off with the line set

and the way that it was made

or it was a,

you know,

generation two

instead of a generation one,

sometimes things get messed up.

The second thing

would be,

you know,

the rigger

and you

could sit there

and they could measure

the lines to specs

just to see if it

matches the specs.

But I would definitely

go to that.

You went to that

original rigger first

to have them

reline it,

go back to them,

tell them what's

happened to them,

let them start

the communication

with the manufacturer

and or do the

inspection with you

and then see if

the manufacturer

has some things

to give feedback

because it's not

all that uncommon

for local riggers

to do relines

and sometimes

it can be

sure that they

sent the,

you know,

something off

with the way

they made the line set

could be something

with the way

it was installed.

It could be that

you're just not used

to the way

that the lines,

the canopy flies

when it's in trim,

like even flying

it out of trim

for so long

and it has these

big mushy openings

because the canopy

is not fully opening

that maybe with

the new line set

it's just like

it's crisp

and that type of thing

so it could be

it's perfectly normal

but if you give

that feedback

to the rigger,

start with the manufacturer

then they could say

hey, no,

I think what you're

dealing with is just

this is the way

the canopy is

when it's in trim,

that type of thing

or it could be

oh crap,

we did do something

weird on the D lines

or something

and that's what's

causing it.

That sounds like

good advice.

Just to go

just a little bit

deeper here,

when should we

reline?

And I guess

that's a big,

that's a whole big

question, right?

Because there's all

different types of line

but like,

is there a general

rule of thumb

for when somebody

should start

considering that?

So we've always

recommended

around 500,

600 jumps

for traditional

Spectra,

Dacron,

HMA,

Vectran,

and normal size

is not

souped up,

you know,

tiny thread floss,

floss thread here

size,

but usually about

500,

600 jumps

with normal wear,

you know,

normal,

you know,

type stuff.

But that seems to be

where Spectra line

has just gone

so out of trim

that any

Vectran or HMA line

has gotten so worn

that lines start breaking.

So the Spectra

goes,

the Spectra actually

shrinks,

correct,

from the friction

created by the slider?

Yeah.

The HMA,

HMA and the Vectran

are stable,

but they just start

to break basically.

Yes.

So basically,

once your lines

start breaking,

then that's when

we should consider

You've got the cell phone

when that A-line breaks

and you're spiraling down,

call that rigger

to get that line set ordered.

Why not call

Shooting Star, right?

You do this, yeah?

Call that

Shooting Star rigger.

There you go.

Then you won't have

these problems, man.

That's right.

Shootingstar.com

is the website.

And all kinds

of great articles

there, too, to read.

Yep.

Tons of articles

and there's even stuff

on line trim and stuff,

but we definitely have

a full parachute rigging loft.

And Big Steve,

our master rigger,

of course,

does the majority

of the rigging work.

So if you do need anything

or need a second opinion,

you can always call us

or ship us

and stop by the shop

and we can get it

done for you.

All right.

Mike, thanks so much.

We'll talk to you soon.

All right.

Okay.

More from Mike.

Mike at

Facebook.com

slash Shooting Star

Instagram.com

slash Shooting Star

everything

slash Shooting Star.

Get yourself

G'd up.

Oh, boy.

Here it is.

It's time.

Yeah.

It's that time.

All right.

Here we go.

Give us a name.

Hey!

T-C-T-C

If you have a joke

and Steve and Janette

gonna tell you

how to talk

Go, go, go, go, go, go

Yeah!

Go, go, go, go, go, go

Yeah!

Okay.

So, Chloe,

this is the ridiculous segment

that we're

I can't wait.

Okay.

Ridiculously important.

Okay.

I think this is

two shows in a row

that we've had you on.

Is it?

This is like

an overload

of Describe Your Jump.

Yeah.

I mean,

there's so many people out there

with so many jumps

to be described.

Okay.

All right.

I don't know.

Are you ready?

Who's going first?

I can go first.

All right.

Janette.

Yeah.

Dave Skydive.

That's a pretty

impressive last name.

It is.

From the ranch.

Yeah.

And he's got 182 jumps.

And I think it's really

quite coincidental

that his name

his last name is Skydive.

I know.

And his number of jumps

is the most common

skydiving airplane

in the world.

Well, do you think

that it was something like

like Dave Skydiveberg

or Skydivekowski

and then,

and maybe in Ellis Island

it got shortened to Skydive?

Oh, yes.

When he moved here from

where would he have come from?

That's a good question.

I mean,

it was definitely

somewhere in Eastern Europe.

I also wonder if Dave

was like,

I need a name.

Let's say Dave.

Okay.

I need another name.

Skydive.

And then I need a number.

Oh, so you think

that Dave

who claims all this time.

I think this might

all be made up.

Oh, you think this is me

is what you're saying.

I mean, you know.

Oh, I see.

I see.

We have a certain number.

We have a certain person here

who claims to not really understand

or appreciate

how great a thing this is.

I need to make it so obvious

that no one would actually think

I would make this up.

You know what I mean?

Like, there's no originality here.

Right.

I'm using my name,

Skydive182.

It might just be true.

I'll throw in the ranch.

But why would I choose the ranch?

That doesn't make sense.

Because you like ranch dressing.

I think it would be,

I think you were thinking

about this over like wings

and it hit you.

Yeah.

That's what he said.

Maybe they'll go that route

but they'll just say.

Or like,

then I'll say,

why would I choose the ranch?

And they'll be like,

yeah, you're right.

Okay, you can believe

whatever you want.

I'm skeptical,

but it's okay.

Dave.

So you think it's Dave Schwartz?

It might be.

You think Dave Skydive

is Dave Schwartz?

Well, I don't think it is

because he has,

this is not Dave Schwartz.

I think he's just,

it's just a made up name.

Maybe by Dave Schwartz.

It is not.

I have nothing to do with this.

It's a,

it's like a,

did you ever have

an imaginary friend?

I had an imaginary friend.

No, I never had an imaginary friend.

Anyway, okay.

Dave Skydive,

you ordered your

brand new equipment

like nine months ago,

right off of student status

on jump 250.

You will jump all of it

and you will be very nervous,

but it's all going to be okay.

Oh.

Oh, so he hasn't

taken delivery yet.

It hasn't, no.

No, he ordered it

and he's been waiting

as you do

when you order new stuff.

You got a little bit of nerves

of new equipment.

Yeah, like,

did I hook it up right?

Is it all going to be good?

Can I reach this?

The handles,

all these things.

But rest assured.

He'll be fine.

And it'll surprise him

how nervous he is

in the plane.

He's like,

oh man, you know.

On 250?

250.

250, okay.

Do you see what this is now, Chloe?

I'm here for it.

Was it worth

the price of admission?

It was absolutely,

I'm here for it completely.

Thank you.

All right.

Okay, Steve,

are you ready?

I'm ready.

Pat Vaughn

is from Skydive Danielson

and he has 242 jumps.

Pat Vaughn.

Pat Vaughn

from Skydive Danielson

with 200.

Hold on,

I need to really,

because this is,

hold on.

Got it.

I need to focus here.

So to be clear,

you don't have this in advance.

There's nothing.

When I tell you the name.

That's right.

I need to channel,

you give me the information.

I need to channel

that information

and it comes to me.

I'm not going to say

that there's something

from another dimension

or anything like that.

You take it how you will,

but it comes to me

and I am but a vessel.

To share what I know

and make the skydiving world.

But the ingredients

have to be put into the vessel

before you can.

That's right.

I understand.

That's just vessel 101.

Okay.

Okay, Steve.

Okay.

So 240 jumps.

242 jumps.

Okay.

So on,

name again.

Pat Vaughn.

Okay.

Skydive Danielson.

Pat.

Got it.

Pat,

on your 800th jump,

don't do that handshake

with that skydiver next to you.

He is a process server

there

to serve you a court summon.

Don't be trapped.

Don't do it.

And also,

you know what you did.

That's good.

Okay.

That's great, Steve.

Okay.

Very, very good.

Steve and Jeanette

describe your jump.

Oh, vessel.

Describe your jump.

Steve and Jeanette

describe your jump.

Jump, jump, jump.

Oh, man.

Okay.

Those songs are wonderful.

So.

I want it to be my alarm.

You know, like when I wake up.

We could make that happen.

Yeah.

I would love that.

I can send you the song, please.

Oh, man.

So I've got to say to our listeners,

it's up to you guys

whether or not this segment continues

because we are down

for the first time ever.

We're low on requests.

I don't have two in the queue.

So we have, as of right now,

there will only be one more.

Steve and Jeanette,

describe your jump.

Okay.

We need more requests.

Or, I mean, if the people don't.

It's like,

it's been a long queue

for a long time.

Yeah.

We have finally worked our way

all the way through.

I see.

At some point.

You know, sometimes,

sometimes,

um,

people are afraid of,

of the truth.

You know?

I mean, if you,

if you, you know,

could know the future,

do you want that?

You know,

it's a deep philosophical question

and I understand that

the answer is a yes for everyone.

Right?

I would not want to know my future.

I feel bad about,

like,

if you are Dave Skydive

and you really do

a real person.

Oh, now you're,

now you're feeling bad

that maybe you offended

Dave Skydive.

Yes.

Reach out to me.

You're such a sweet person.

I know.

Well, yeah.

I'm sorry, Dave Skydive,

if you're really a real person.

On the off chance.

And you're not.

I'm not Dave Schwartz.

And if you would like,

if you're out there

and you've been on the fence,

skydiveradio at gmail.com

is the address.

All you need to send us

is your name.

What, what is it?

What all is it you need, Steve?

Your name.

Your home drop zone

and the number of jumps.

That's okay.

Okay.

And, and,

okay.

Okay.

Let's go to safety first.

And today,

Brian is going to be talking

about unusual jumps.

Hey, Brian,

how are you today?

Hello, Dave.

I'm doing very well.

We've got,

I don't know.

I don't have this listener's name

that,

that gave us this topic,

but they want to know about

basic safety considerations

for doing what they call

silly stuff in quotes.

So this could be things like,

you know,

jumping with an object

of some sort,

maybe an inflatable

or a hoop

or,

or a free fly tube,

maybe,

or maybe wearing some kind

of crazy costume.

Just,

just sort of the,

the stuff that,

that some,

some skydivers

do from time to time.

I don't know even what you,

what we call this.

Yeah.

Safety third.

I like it.

But if we're going to do that,

like what's some consider,

let's just take one.

Let's take like a Mr.

Potato head job.

Throw that out there as a,

as a starter.

Well,

anything that's not

directly attached to you,

you got to consider

it might land

independent of the skydivers,

is it going to put a hole

in the roof?

You know,

is,

is it the we've obviously seen

all kinds of things like that.

I remember one in Illinois

where a pumpkin went through

somebody's roof and exploded

on the kitchen table.

Um, you have to consider

where,

where's the spot,

you know,

even a Mr.

Potato head could theoretically

really hurt somebody,

uh, or,

you know,

damage to property.

And now you're,

you're even getting into FAA

ours,

right?

You can't drop anything

out of an airplane that

could pose a risk to persons or

property on the ground.

So,

um,

you have to have a plan for,

you know,

how are you going to collect

it?

Who's responsible for it?

Is there going to be a

secondary person maybe that's

going to be helping?

Like we used to jump with

sky balls.

Did you do that back in the

day?

It's got some sky ball jumps.

Yeah.

In fact,

I used to,

I had a system for measuring

them in the grocery store.

Um, I would bring the,

I would test them in freefall

to,

to get the right rate,

the tennis balls with like a

pull-up court on them.

And then I'd take them to the

grocery store and put them in

the produce.

Scale to find out the one that

I wanted,

how much it weighed and then I

could recreate it.

So you're putting lead on the

grocery scale.

Well,

I put the whole,

the whole sky ball.

There was a barrier there,

Brian.

Maybe so,

you know,

me and the lead.

I don't know.

I don't think lead is good,

but yeah,

I played with,

with the lead balls too.

And you just have to be very

cautious about,

you know,

where is the spot?

And if it burns in,

I mean,

everybody wants to go up to

assuming they're going to land

with the tube.

They're going to land with the

Mr.

Potato head or whatever it

is.

But what if it doesn't,

you know,

where's it going to go and

think about free fall drift as

well.

It's not that easy to predict

it.

So you leave a margin for

error and you don't,

you don't do that kind of jump

over a city.

I would say,

I would say make sure that you

have permission from the drop

zone too,

because some places are okay

with it.

And if jump run is the correct

direction for it.

And then other days,

if jump run is going out over a

city,

like you just mentioned,

then on those days they might

not be okay with it.

So talk to somebody at the DZ.

Yeah.

I mean,

you could theoretically shut down

an entire drop zone by one stupid

incident.

So,

yeah,

well,

in there's,

you know,

the,

the disconnected objects,

but then there's other things

where you're,

you're actually hanging onto it.

Um,

but like we used to jump with

the hoops a lot,

it's probably not going to hurt

anybody,

but you never know.

Um,

you could do,

you can do some damage,

you know,

and,

and as you expand that out to

the really,

really dumb stuff,

like the heavy,

the head of a heavy tennis ball

and the watermelon or the bowling

ball or the raft,

you know,

now it starts getting more,

you know,

the riding the inflatable shark.

Um,

it doesn't seem like it could hurt

you,

but I've seen people get way out

of control,

you know,

just tried trying to ride a raft

and the whole thing spins out

like crazy,

or it doesn't go well in the

airplane that you're,

you know,

exiting is not the kind where,

you know,

like a tailgate or something where

chances are you're all right.

I mean,

you can take out an airplane.

So please talk to your pilot in

depth,

you know,

and be ready for them to say no

and not get pissed at them.

You know,

this is their reputation.

This is everybody's lives.

They don't like it.

It's a no.

It's okay.

Yeah.

I know in Sebastian,

they,

they have moved to not even really

doing,

you know,

like you mentioned an inflatable shark,

you know,

that's a common thing,

a small inflatable,

that you just hold on to.

And that probably isn't going to hurt

anything on the ground when it lands

on it.

You know,

it's like a balloon almost.

But if it lands in traffic,

it can certainly cause an accident,

you know?

So they,

they've kind of,

I think shied away from that down

there.

Yeah.

I mean,

even weird clothing,

right?

So,

okay,

maybe it's not going to come off of

you,

but it can cause you to not have

access to your handles.

They can obstruct your vision.

Right.

You know,

and just,

I mean,

if you haven't,

if you haven't jumped naked or

like a lingerie,

even that can,

can really change things in terms

of your ability to track.

Right.

So I remember a world free fall

convention,

I guess it was years ago.

They do the,

the lingerie jump.

I don't know if you ever did

that.

I mean,

I witnessed many of them.

I actually,

I never put,

I'm not going to go in and

lingerie,

Brian,

that is not going to happen.

I think you'd look awesome.

So I'm,

so I'm hanging out.

I wasn't,

I was actually wearing a jumpsuit

and all these guys are getting

ready to do their lingerie

jumpsuits.

And I'm,

you know,

big,

you know,

macho guys in lingerie.

And they look ridiculous,

right?

Everybody,

they all look ridiculous.

And this one guy looks at the

other one and he goes,

man,

if I go in on this jump,

my parents are never going to

understand.

That is not the way you want to

go out.

It's not the way you want to go

out.

But you know,

like how could it get you?

That's the real question is to

take a step back from that

novelty jump and go,

all right,

well,

what if it went wrong?

I understand that the best case

scenario is what we're

focused on,

but you don't want to be so

Pollyanna that you don't think,

well,

wait a minute.

What if,

you know,

we track off and we're still

there because we've got no,

no ability to move horizontally.

What are we going to do?

Maybe we should talk about

sequencing our deployments

deliberately.

So there's some vertical as

well.

Let's think through how this

might go weird and what we're

going to do about it.

And if you don't have an answer

to that,

don't do the jump,

you know,

or change something about it so

that you do have an answer to

all those weird what-if things.

You know,

I mean,

I remember the car that they

rode out of the back of the

airplane and it was just

tumbling,

tumbling.

And Olav was getting such great

footage.

I mean,

he was on it like white on

rice,

fearless,

you know,

just being Olav.

And that car,

that convertible just tumbled

right into him,

bounced right off him.

He didn't expect that was going

to happen.

And I'm not saying that the

jump in the car is such a great

idea,

but,

um,

with all of these,

you have to treat it with the

same respect.

It's almost like,

it's almost like a stunt.

You know,

you need to think through all

the possible what-ifs.

Yep.

And take your time,

take your time thinking that

through because that,

that one weird thing that could

get you,

you know,

of the tube wrapping around your

lines and spiraling your canopy,

um,

you might not have thought about

it.

And so don't just think about it

in your own head,

but have discussions with

multiple people.

Hey,

I was thinking about,

you know,

jumping with this thing or

whatever and Darth Vader mask or

whatever.

And,

uh,

you know,

maybe somebody will see

something that you haven't seen,

you know,

they'll think of something you

haven't thought of.

All right.

Well,

Brian,

we're going to keep up with you

at adventure wisdom.com or your

YouTube channel.

What's your YouTube channel?

Uh,

I think it's under my name.

B.S.

Your name.

I remember that.

Well,

that's true.

Technically it is that,

but if you search my name,

it'll come up.

But yeah,

you're right.

It is.

It's not bullshit.

It's my middle name.

That's all it is.

All right.

Well,

we will,

uh,

see you soon,

Brian.

Thanks for the,

thanks.

Thanks for the time.

Yeah.

Have a great day.

All right.

More from Brian at

adventure wisdom.com.

And,

uh,

we sure appreciate man.

Brian's been doing safety first

for like 15 years with us.

Now.

I think he's been doing safety

for a long,

long time.

He did a lot of our first shows

and was one of our most popular

guests.

He was.

We had,

and he hosted show 100

and interviewed us.

That's right.

And then he started the,

the,

the safety first with Brian

Germain.

He's been doing it forever.

Well,

we were,

I think we had started safety

first before episode 100.

Had we?

I think so.

I think it's been a long time

that he's been doing it.

For sure.

So thank you,

Brian.

Um,

uh,

let's see.

Pick of the week.

Uh,

this is a 60 way building over

Eloy at the airspeed challenge.

I think this is maybe a year

old now.

Um,

but the photos is,

is by our friend,

Nicholas Daniel.

And,

uh,

Steven,

Jeanette,

maybe you should weigh in on

this.

You're,

you're belly people.

Is this a good formation?

Oh,

for sure.

It looks like a complex and

challenging one.

Yeah.

What makes this,

what makes what Jeanette just

said,

like the bipoles and the cats

and the cats.

Those are difficult.

Norwegian donuts.

I'm thinking Norwegian donuts.

Yeah.

Mm hmm.

That's what you call that.

Mm hmm.

It looks like a,

it's from underneath too,

isn't it?

Nick must be sitting on his,

laying on his back for this

photo.

Yeah.

Um,

if you have a photo that you

would like to submit for pick

of the week,

you can send those to us at

skydiveradio at gmail.com.

Um,

and now we get to get to

know Chloe a little bit.

Um,

so,

so Chloe,

I'm going to do my best at

kind of lobbing this up a

little bit to start.

I believe in you.

You are a therapist.

Mm hmm.

Uh,

I'm not a physical therapist.

You're a mental health therapist.

Is that the correct way for me

to state that?

Mm hmm.

And when I met you,

you were doing,

um,

a lot of work with athletes

on kind of performance based

stuff.

Is that correct?

Sure.

Yeah.

And now you have sort of

pivoted into more of a trauma

approach or what did you call

it when we talked the other

day?

Trauma.

It's,

um,

so as a,

you can say a mental health

professional or a,

a counselor,

but really I'm a psychotherapist.

I'm licensed clinical social

worker.

And when,

when we met,

I was taking a hiatus from,

from social work and I had

just gotten into like two

years.

I think I was two years into

skydiving.

And so I was a personal

trainer working with athletes

for,

you know,

um,

their,

on their mindset and then

connecting the mind and body

in terms of like,

you know,

athletic workouts,

um,

strength conditioning,

but then really talking to

them and talking a little bit

more about what they were

feeling and how they wanted

to,

I guess,

like apply what they were

doing in the gym with me to,

uh,

their performance.

And so,

um,

so you were doing physical

training with them.

Yeah,

it was,

I was working in a gym,

so I was working,

I started off,

I've been doing trauma work,

um,

across many different types

of life experiences,

gender-based violence.

Um,

I was a domestic violence

counselor.

I was an anti-trafficking

counselor.

I was,

a what,

trafficking counselor?

Anti-trafficking.

Like child trafficking,

that kind of thing?

Yeah,

um,

just in general.

Um,

so I worked in child

trafficking,

um,

anti-trafficking,

uh,

work,

um,

talking about like programs

and policies and,

and doing more of like the

legal social work,

um,

which is kind of looking

at law and seeing how we

can advocate to,

to change the wording in

laws so that it's more

protective over,

you know,

victims and survivors.

And that,

I,

I started doing all of

this work from,

I think the age of

19.

And then when we met

and I started skydiving,

um,

that must've been,

so I started skydiving

in 2015,

I think.

And then probably 2016,

or 16.

Yeah.

So about like 17 is

when I was working at

the district attorney's

office as a domestic

violence counselor.

And I was training,

I mean,

six days a week,

maybe if not on a good

week,

seven days a week in

jujitsu.

And so because I was

balancing that out,

I,

a lot on my mind was

about the

mind and the body.

I was talking to

people,

you know,

that were survivors

of trauma and,

you know,

faring them through,

you know,

educational resources

and,

and just watching them

kind of,

you know,

engage in this mode

of resilience over,

you know,

months of working

together while also,

you know,

as a woman stepping

into at that time,

a very male dominated

space,

jujitsu.

I think I may have

in a three floor

academy,

there were,

I don't know,

three,

three women.

Now there's like 40

and it's an entire

class and similar

to skydiving.

The breakdown,

do you think?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Similar to a lot of

these sports,

I think.

Yeah.

And,

um,

you know,

it,

it got to the point

that I couldn't,

I couldn't really

reconcile the,

the,

the feeling that I

had inside of me of

like wanting to be

an athlete and

wanting to do that

professionally and

wanting to do that

full time while also,

I think reaching a

ceiling in that

career because I,

I was,

I was able to work

with people in a way

that I was no longer

connecting,

but I was very,

I was on autopilot,

but I was on a good

autopilot where I was

having these substantive

conversations and they

were benefiting,

but I wasn't engaged

and I knew I was

burning out,

you know?

So,

um,

I took that hiatus

and then I became a

personal trainer.

Um,

but I couldn't,

I mean,

you can't turn off

your lens,

that clinical lens,

right?

I mean,

that's just the way

that I see it.

It's part of my

worldview.

So I,

um,

I got to the place

where I,

gave myself a solid

chance of,

um,

you know,

trying to do two

full time and I was

skydiving back and

forth between New

York and Florida.

And at some point

I recognized that,

you know,

I had all of my

clinical hours.

I was just at a

place where if I did

take,

you know,

that second boards

exam,

which certifies you

to be a licensed

clinical social worker,

which means I can,

you know,

take clients under

insurance.

I can open up my

own private practice.

It really opened me

up for psychotherapy,

um,

that I should take

that boards exam.

And that's what I did.

Um,

I think during like

2020 just cause there

was nothing to do

during COVID

during COVID.

Yeah.

Because a lot of it

was,

I mean,

I took in terms of

business,

I took a dip to

rebuild again,

you know,

um,

cause I was leaving

a career.

There was an HR

department and people

were telling me when

to take lunch,

you know,

um,

but you know,

at that point I

knew that,

um,

that also wasn't

enough.

So like both career

paths,

I think just had

missing elements.

And at that time

around 2018,

I started thinking

about how I could

really connect

athleticism and

trauma and people,

whether they were

already athletes or

whether they were,

you know,

non athletes at the

time,

they just weren't

connected in that

way with their

bodies or,

you know,

maybe survivors of

trauma or people

that experienced

anxiety,

et cetera.

So I,

I wasn't really

figuring out how

to do that,

but,

um,

I think one

year after the next

and just like

constantly thinking

and seeing friends

and seeing,

I mean,

when you're,

you can have like

200 jumps over

seven years,

but still have a

lot of experience

in the sport

because you see

stuff,

right?

I mean,

this is still,

you end up

learning a lot

about our

community and

even just mechanics

and things like

that.

You just,

you know,

so I don't have

that many jumps.

I have about like

400 at this point,

but over the

course of what,

eight years,

I think I've

understood loss

and grief,

life and,

um,

sustained injury.

I've seen critical

injury.

I've seen death.

I've seen a lot

of different things

happen.

And I just,

I know that when,

when I was meeting

with survivors

of,

um,

domestic violence,

even that,

you know,

you're already

feeling isolated

in,

in something that

I believe is,

um,

generally regarded

that anybody can

experience.

But when you're

an extreme sports

athlete,

how do you go

to a therapist

and say,

okay,

well,

this is the

thing that I

was doing.

This is my

passion.

And,

you know,

without having to

answer and spend

a lot,

expend energy

while you're in

crisis or while

you're,

um,

not feeling

mentally,

you know,

up for it,

you know?

Um,

and so that's,

that's kind of

the,

the premise

of all the

therapy.

It's really

just a space

where any

extreme sports

athlete,

any alternative

sports athlete,

um,

really can just

go without

needing to

explain a lot

of these,

um,

you know,

just,

uh,

what's a good

word?

Like their

attachment to

this thing

that also

is causing

trauma for

them maybe

or feel like

they might be

judged for

having done

that sport.

Absolutely.

People ask,

why would you

do that in

the first place?

That's not the

question I have

right now.

The question is,

how do I get

over this?

Yeah,

this is right.

Yeah.

I mean,

I firsthand

have this

experience.

Yeah,

for sure.

Yeah.

So a lot

of my clients,

I mean,

I've done a

lot of leg

work is,

um,

trying to

figure out

like my

own and,

you know,

Dave,

I was talking

to you about

this the other

day,

but like it

is kind

of proprietary

because it's

like,

how do you

do this

work while

also be part

being part

of the

community

without

violating

ethical

boundaries

without like,

you know,

and really

upholding it

and done a

lot of work

and a lot

of thinking

about how

to actually

make that

happen.

Um,

and of

course I

understand

that it's,

there's always

going to be

like a learn

as you go,

but for

three years,

all the

therapy has

been in

practice.

Um,

I actively

see people

in the

community.

It doesn't

matter,

um,

like who,

but as

on the

whole,

I mean,

there are,

there's so

much overlap

with extreme

sports in

general and

alternative

athletics in

general because

they're

individualized

sports or

they're

individualistic.

So when you

show up as

a rock

climber,

for example,

or,

you know,

in mountain

engineering or

in free

diving or

in motocross,

like you're

out there by

yourself,

it's the

relationship you

have with

yourself.

So that

metaphorically and

quite literally

is space

to,

it's robust

material to,

um,

that's appropriate

for the,

for the

therapeutic

space because

it is

psychodynamic.

You are

going back

into development.

You're,

you're going

back into,

you know,

subconscious

drives and

meaning for

yourself.

And when you

take something

that is so

tangible and

also like

really kind

of approachable

material,

right?

Um,

you're able

to then,

I'm able

to then get

people to

feel more

comfortable

about talking,

you know,

to me about

their,

their childhoods

and their

traumas and

things like

that because,

you know,

resilience or

learning the,

being able to

recount the

moment that you

were able to

trust yourself

in skydiving,

that you're

like,

oh,

or that you,

um,

you know,

you learned

how to calm

your nerves

or you,

um,

you understood

very,

across the

span of your

career,

like resilience.

Those are

things that,

you know,

they're palatable

and,

and when you

speak to

someone about

those themes,

they're already

kind of emoting

in that way

and then you

can segue

and really

open up a

conversation that

would otherwise

be very

difficult for

someone to

talk about.

So,

so what

would be,

um,

I mean,

I,

I realize

I'm not asking

you to talk

about any

of your

actual cases,

but can

you like

talk about

a hypothetical

case where

like what

is somebody

listening who

maybe has

experienced

something bad

in the sport

or base

jumping or

you mentioned

free diving

and it

sounds like

any kind

of sport

where you

could see

some mayhem.

Is that

true?

Like how

does that

person even

know if

they need

to come

see somebody

like you?

Like what,

if somebody's

listening now

and they're

on the fence,

like what,

what should

they be

recognizing

that,

man,

maybe this

is worth

investigating

further?

Okay,

the way

that I

can explain

that because

there are,

there's two

different things.

One is that

there are,

I would

imagine that

in the

free diving

community,

which I

know,

in the

skydiving

community or

in jujitsu,

for example,

there are

commonalities

in terms of

experience,

things that

happen that

are likely

to happen

because of

the activity

itself,

right?

Or because

of,

you know,

the social

dynamics and

just the,

just demographically

like,

you know,

you're,

you're bound

to see certain

things happen

or experience

certain things.

And,

you know,

understanding

the,

the different

sport,

I think

when you're

doing this

work,

you know,

me showing

up means

that I

also do

a lot of

research as

well.

So I have

to read up

on,

you know,

certain

things

in terms

of like,

you know,

I have

to read up

on,

on divers

panic,

for example,

and what

that looks

like and

how that

manifests in

the body

or,

you know,

does this

affect more

women or

men?

And so if

I have

this background

knowledge or

for base

jumping,

for example,

where there's,

you know,

a lot of

avoidant

behaviors and

addiction,

or where

there's,

you know,

risk seeking

or risk

taking or

impulsivity

in certain

areas,

right?

You know,

lack of

boundaries or

not being

able to

substantively

tell yourself

like,

what are

your,

what are

your boundaries?

Can you

measure them?

Right?

Those things

are observable.

It's all

biofeedback.

So if

I first

familiarize

myself with

the kind

of

commonalities

that are

coming up

in each

sport,

then I'm

able to

just be

able to

educate and

normalize a

lot of the

behavior that

I'm seeing.

So that's

one thing.

That's only

from maybe

speaking to

someone in

session,

right?

But what

happens,

I think,

to your

question is

like,

so what

if you

don't,

you don't

know that

something's

wrong or

you don't

know that

you're

engaging in

certain

behaviors that

kind of maybe

have an

underlining

meaning and

it's kind of

coming up for

you in a

certain way

that you're

not able to

read,

right?

No matter

who and

no matter

who's

listening and

if you're

part of

skydiving or

not,

if you

engage in

these sports

or not,

the body

always speaks

first.

It's always

something that

your biological

functioning,

if you have

depression,

is always

going to

decline.

So those

are kinds

of

telltale

signs.

That anyone

can look

for.

So if you're

sleeping too

much or

eating too

much or

too little

or just

irritable or

jumpy,

these are the

kinds of

things and

I'll break

them down

and call

them symptoms,

right?

But they're

symptoms of

certain

categories of

things that

can happen

to people,

right?

So we

can all

reach a

diagnosis in

that way if

we ever get

to that place

where it's

clinically

significant.

But if

you're even

hearing your

friends saying

like,

listen,

man,

I don't

know what's

up with

you,

but like

you're not

yourself or

yeah,

I guess

so,

like,

you know,

you're

definitely,

dude,

you've done

that tower

like three

times this

week,

man,

like what's

going on?

You know,

it's more

about trying

to understand

what your

baseline is

and straying

away from

that at

all,

you know?

That's one

rudimentary

way to

gauge,

I think.

But if

you can't

do that

because

a lot

of people

who have

sustained

trauma

are actually

very

disconnected

with their

body,

so that's

a tall

order.

Another

thing is

just knowing

that off

the bat

without

needing to

know yourself

or to,

you know,

gauge your

senses and

on a

personal

level,

it's just

knowing that

if you

see

something

that is

cataclysmic

in your

life,

meaning that

it has

reverberations,

it affects

you and

it changes

the way

you think

or it

changes

the way

you think

or the

way that

you approach

something,

a jump

or life.

Like seeing

a really bad

accident?

Absolutely.

Or losing

somebody close

to you,

maybe?

Absolutely.

If you are

to experience

something that

causes chaos,

that causes

some sort

of disruption

in the

safety and

stability of

your life

as it was,

right,

because not

everybody,

you know,

we all have

things to work

on, but

if anything

has in

addition

caused that,

then that's

going to

have a

constellation

of effects,

right?

I mean,

naturally it

would.

That's the

whole point.

The whole

point of us

having emotions

and emoting

this way

or physically

sensing things

in our

body and

then those

manifestations,

whether they're

anxiety-driven

or compulsory

or whatever

it is,

right,

you're going

to be

speaking

and that's

valuable

information

because when

you try to

figure out

what is it

that you're

doing,

right,

it could be

that behavior

is rooted

in addiction,

right?

And so we

have to be

able to

understand

one thing

about trauma,

I think,

is that

trauma is

not the

watching a

friend go

in.

Trauma is

not the

plane crash.

Trauma is

not the

car accident

or the

bike accident

or something.

Those are

traumatic,

right?

Trauma is

what happens

to you

after.

It's the

injury.

Like the

way you

process

those

events.

The way

that you

may not

be processing

but that

they are

getting

misrouted

in other

behaviors

because you

don't know

how to

gauge or

where to

put them.

It's sort

of like

the set

of effects

of the

traumatic

experience.

Yeah,

the

consolation,

the reverberation

of this

is the

wound.

The anger,

the fear,

the hate,

the blaming,

the I'm

not going

to talk

to you

because it's

all your

fault that

happened.

The jumping

way too

much,

the

partying

way too

hard,

the,

I mean,

this is,

let's just

not even,

yes,

extreme sports

for sure,

okay,

but then

there's,

you know,

you're overworking,

you're over

exercising,

you're over

eating,

you are,

you know,

like too

much sex,

too much

this,

too much

that.

It's when

addiction is

categorized

by like

this

behavior

that you're

using,

that it's

not,

it's

basically

where you,

how do I

explain this?

Where

anything that

could be used,

whether it's

moderation or

whether you

are prescribed

or whether

that it

would otherwise

be constructive

gets to the

certain point

that the short,

in the short

term,

there is

like an

endorphin gain

and you're

feeling comfort

and you're

feeling,

you know,

soothed

by it,

but that in

the long run

it causes

consequences

and those

consequences

are ignored

because there

is an

unwillingness

to stop.

And when

you have a

person that

has experienced

trauma even

before they

get into

extreme sports,

right,

whether it be,

you know,

they grew up,

their development,

they grew up

in a household

that was

like volatile

or violent

or they saw

something or

something was

chronic,

that you

have two

different things

that are at

odds with

each other.

You have one,

on one hand

you have

attachment,

which we're

all seeking,

so that's why

we love the

community so

much.

Man,

it's like my

family.

This is why

I think

when you see

someone after

the second

day of meeting

them on a

drop zone,

their family,

it's this

endorphin rush

that we get

that makes us

feel like we're

so close,

but there has

to be a

balance there

because we

don't actually

know the

person in

front of us

and this is

kind of

something that

we,

I think a

lot of

us talk

about,

at least I

do with

the people

on the

drop zone

over the

years of

like,

what is

this

phenomenon?

You sort

of feel

more bonded

than you

actually are

because of

that shared

experience?

Yes.

Or maybe

you trust

them a

little bit

too soon.

Could be.

I mean,

I've actually

said that to

somebody.

I was like,

well,

I like

motorcycles and

tattoos,

but I don't

trust every

biker I

meet.

Right.

And you

don't need

to trust

every

scout

ever you

meet

either.

Right.

And so

attachment is

so important

to us

because it's

vital,

right?

We say

that we're

social beings

and stuff,

but you

can actually

see this

in any

kind of

mammal.

And I

think that

they've

done studies

on mice

and baby

mice that

where you

extract the

endorphins,

they don't

actually cry

for their

mother.

They don't

have that

desire to

cry out.

This is

synonymous

with depression.

So when

you are

isolating

and when

you don't

have any

endorphins,

you're

obviously

oxytocin is

low.

All these

good,

feel good

hormones and

stuff,

GABA is

low.

All of

these things,

there's no

dopamine,

right?

You're not

reaching and

that's what

causes a lot

of people to

retract and

not really

move.

And we

call that

hopelessness,

but that's

really,

you know,

I mean,

it could,

there's a

biological model

that explains

what's happening.

You don't

want to do

the very

things that

would help

you.

Right.

Get out

in the

sunshine,

exercise,

be social.

That's the

last thing

that you

want to

but that's

the last

thing that

you can

access as

a, you

know,

within you

biologically,

neurologically,

or neurochemically,

right?

And so

attachment is

really,

really important.

I mean,

it was part,

you know,

us again,

as mammals,

like needing

to be social,

needing to

have this

sort of

sense of

belonging.

And in

cognitive

behavioral

therapy,

when you,

one technique

is when

someone is

like catastrophizing,

they're super,

super nervous

about something,

you can ladder

them down.

So if this

happens,

then,

then what?

All right,

well,

you know,

I mean,

if that

happens,

then people

will be

really mad

at me.

Okay.

And if

people are

really mad

at you,

then what

happens,

right?

Well,

then they,

then they

won't talk

to me.

And then,

all right,

well,

if they

don't talk

to you,

then,

then what

happens,

right?

Oh,

well,

then I'll,

I'll,

I won't

have friends

and I'll

be alone.

And when

you get

to the

bottom

of that

ladder

almost

every

single

time,

you know,

activated,

the reason

is because

our system

is wired

for our

own survival

because then

we'll be

alone and

we'll die

and we'll

be,

you know,

this is

the irrational

fear.

So when

you connect

the base

of that

ladder

to the

thing that

they were

actually

worried

about

and you

realize

like how

disproportionate

that is,

it's

so

biologically

ingrained

in us

to seek

attachment.

Okay,

well,

that's one,

that's one

thing,

one aspect

for our

that's vital

for our

survival,

but then

there's also

authenticity

and here's

where it

gets complicated

because I

think in

extreme

sports,

there's

the idea

is that

you're

finding

yourself

and that

you're

connecting

with yourself

and you

also

socially

you're

disconnecting

from,

you know,

the

value

set

that you

no longer

want to

ascribe to

to some

degree,

right?

You want

to be

alternative,

you want

to be

a free

thinker

or whatever,

you know,

and of

course,

I mean,

this is not

everybody,

I don't

know.

I think

we hear

this in

the skydiving

community

all the

time,

that people

think they

have found

this sort

of,

that it's

somehow

different

in the

skydiving

community,

and there

are

differences

in it,

but like

ultimately

people are

kind of

people

everywhere,

aren't

they?

I find

that.

I don't

know.

Yeah,

but yeah,

so,

and it's

complicated

because there

is a way

to answer

that,

it's a

critical

question