766 Endangered European Languages; Black Women Travelers; Beating the Crowds, Part 2

How much do national borders define a culture?

Ross Perlin suggests that we follow the languages

to get at what really sets one society apart from another.

The linguistic map is the deeper one

that really gets you into European history,

European culture.

Coming up, we'll look at where the words we speak came from.

As a woman of color who often travels solo,

Onika Raymond wants to encourage everyone

to get excited about traveling and other cultures.

I think it's really important for all of us

to be a good neighbor.

As we make the world our oyster

and as we navigate all these different places,

spaces, and destinations.

She also lets us in on the issues

that black travelers often have to face.

People have a certain idea in their mind

of who I am, where I'm from, and what my intentions are.

And listeners share more stories

on how they're avoiding being overwhelmed

by tourist crowds in Europe.

Come along for the hour ahead.

It's Travel with Rick Steves.

A host of budget travel shows

tells us what her priorities are

as a black woman who often travels solo.

And we'll check with more listeners

on how they're avoiding the crowds

at popular tourist sites

now that the whole world is traveling again.

That's in the hour ahead

on today's Travel with Rick Steves.

Europe is home to about two dozen official languages

and many more regional ones

that may still be spoken today.

While languages die out all the time,

knowing how one language became dominant over the others

can help you understand the history

and character of any society.

And it can help you notice

when the minority languages start to make a comeback.

Joining us is Dr. Ross Perlin.

He teaches linguistics at Columbia University

and co-founded the nonprofit Endangered Language Alliance.

They help document, map, and preserve languages

that are at risk of disappearing.

He joins us from his office in New York City.

Ross, thanks for being with us.

Thank you.

Rick?

You know, I'm just fascinated by a linguist.

And a lot of us don't really appreciate

or understand what a linguist does.

Tell us, what is a linguist?

I wish it was somebody who just got to learn languages

because I do love learning languages

and people always ask,

oh, how many do you speak?

But linguists also have a responsibility

to think about language more broadly,

research theories of language,

try to understand principles of language more generally.

And my particular specialty within it

is endangered languages,

especially of the Himalaya,

but I've also worked in the United States

and I've also worked in Europe and other places

and have a base here in New York City,

the most multilingual city in the history of the world

where languages come from all over.

And you just wrote a book called Language City,

which is all about the fight to preserve

endangered mother tongues in New York.

Now, you mentioned that people ask you,

how many languages do you speak?

And I know that you've written that

that's something that linguists do not like to be asked.

Well, first of all, why not?

And how many languages do you speak?

Well, I guess the reason why not

is just because linguistics is about more than that.

And it's not about just sort of enumerating

and bagging languages.

And as in my case, yes, I think I counted,

I've studied, you know, 15 or something like that

and have varying degrees of knowledge of them.

But like anybody, they come and go

or I know them in different ways.

So it's about language as part of lived experience,

I think, is an important thing to remember.

I know from reading your book

that there's new schools of linguistics and so on.

And you're what I think would be called

a radical linguist.

The only other linguist I've ever known

is, of course, Noam Chomsky.

And you wrote kind of humorously that he's a radical,

but he's not a radical linguist.

What is the difference between

your focus on linguistics and Chomsky's?

So, you know, Noam Chomsky,

in terms of his linguistic work,

which is pretty different in many ways

from his political writings,

comes along in the 1950s and 1960s

and really changes the field

with the sort of idea of searching

for linguistic universals.

And, of course,

there's a lot more to it there.

But it, by and large,

sort of bypasses actually existing

linguistic diversity

and the imperative to document

the, you know, more than half

of the world's languages,

which are little documented

and are highly endangered.

So the focus of the sort of,

you could say, radical linguistics

that I have been part of

is really in the last couple of decades

of stressing that actually

this diversity is being lost.

We need to really recognize

and document all the differences

and take them seriously

and actually appreciate

and celebrate that.

And, yes, where there are commonalities,

we can look at those too,

but those actually, in some cases,

pale before the immense differences

and fascinating different ways

that we communicate with each other.

And talking about, you know,

the fascinating history

and story of languages

as they relate to peoples and cultures,

this is a travel show.

I focus on Europe in my teaching,

and Europe, to me,

is just a fascinating story

of bully tribes and weak tribes

and pushing and pulling.

And that would show itself today

in the linguistic map of Europe.

If you were to look at

the political map of Europe

and the linguistic map of Europe,

they would be different, wouldn't they?

Those are very different maps,

and I think the linguistic map

is the deeper one

that really gets you

into European history,

European culture,

you know, whether if you want to go

to the Basque country,

you go to the Dolomites,

you go to Istria,

or any number of places.

These are multilingual spaces

where if you really want to understand

what's going on,

you need to understand

who are the Basques,

what is their language,

what is the Ladin language,

that's spoken in some of those

Dolomite and Alpine regions,

you know, what is multilingual Istria?

This is really the deeper view

on what's happening,

and it gets into the food,

the dress, the music,

but language is the lens.

I think when you look at Europe,

there's, what,

there's like 24 official languages.

There's five languages

that really are dominant.

I think there's five languages

that are spoken

by over 50 million people.

But if you look at the little languages,

which are a few of those

that you find interesting

as a linguist?

Well, one of the places

I've worked in Europe,

is Istria,

the Istrian peninsula,

which is part of Croatia,

but very close to Italy.

And it's one of the most

multilingual places

that I've been.

Everybody's speaking

four or five languages.

And I worked there

a little bit with

what people know

as the Italian community,

which is considered

by some, you know,

sort of ethnically Italian,

but I actually speak

a native language

called Istriotto,

and this is the original

language of Istria.

It's a Romance language,

but pretty different,

maybe, from some

of the other ones you know.

And then many speak

Istroveneto,

which is a dialect

of the Venetians,

a Venetian language,

because Istria was

under Venetian control

for almost a thousand years.

And then on top of that,

people may speak

standard Italian, too,

because Istria did spend

some time as part of Italy,

and Italian was brought in,

and there are ties there.

And then, of course,

there's Croatian,

specifically the sort of

Western dialects of Croatian,

since this became

part of Croatia.

And, you know, of course,

then there's English

and German that people

also speak,

but that's just one example

of how multilingual

a place can be.

And is it a coincidence

that that happens to be

where three giant

linguistic families

come together?

You've got the

Romance languages,

you've got the

Germanic languages,

and you've got the

Slavic languages, right?

That's true.

It is kind of a fulcrum,

so it is a pretty unique place.

And that's, you know,

an important thing to remember

is that, yeah,

these language families

interweave in such

fascinating ways.

You know, there are

certain regions like

the Balkans that linguists

just love to look at

because it represents

a kind of meeting point

as well of all these

different languages

and how they influence

each other.

And actually,

even in a single language,

you can see the grammar

coming from different families.

And, Ross,

as a linguist,

do you look

at some languages

that you just think,

oh, yeah,

barbarian hordes,

you know, like Hungary, right?

Hungary is just

a weird language

as far as

what are the other

languages around it.

It's not related

to any of these.

And you can trace it back,

and it was a bunch

of nomadic warriors

that eventually said,

ah, this is a nice place.

Let's settle down.

Yeah, the history

of Hungarian

is certainly

a fascinating one,

and, of course,

it then links you

to the history of Finnish, right?

These are related,

Finnish and Hungarian

and Estonian.

And then if you look at

what are the related languages

you're going deep

into Russia,

and there's a bunch

of, you know,

endangered little-known languages

that are part

of that same family.

And so then

to piece together

that archipelago

is to understand

something pretty fundamental

about, you know,

European history,

really Eurasian history.

You sort of see

those connections

of Eurasia as a whole,

which, you know,

of course,

Europe is this

fascinating peninsula

or world

of Western Eurasia,

but it's linked

to all these other places

as well.

It's part of

a global history.

Ross Perlins,

our guest on

Travel with Rick Steves,

as we look at

how understanding

the role of Europe's

many languages

can help you

better appreciate

its distinct cultures.

Ross is the author

of Language City,

the Fight to Preserve

Endangered Mother Tongues

in New York.

In it,

he explores how New York

is the most linguistically

diverse city in history.

Ross has also been

co-director

of the Endangered

Language Alliance

since 2013,

where he manages projects

on urban linguistic diversity.

There's more about their work

at elaalliance.org.

Ross,

I'm fascinated

by the survival,

frankly,

of these small languages

that are bullied

by the big languages.

And when we think in Europe,

what are a couple of languages

that are regional

that are not national languages

that you think are healthy?

Well, some of the best-known

cases are Welsh,

which has held on

in northern Wales

in amazing ways.

In Spain,

you're looking at Basque

and Catalan in particular,

which have stabilized

and even mounted revivals.

And there are other cases

around as well.

These stories

are pretty amazing.

And those are hard-fought

successes from a linguistic

point of view.

I mean,

Catalonian people,

they'll fall on their sword

for their language.

I mean,

they were really brutalized

by Franco,

and now they can wave

the Catalonian flag

and they can speak

their language at school

and it can be

the first language

of that part of Spain.

Yeah,

it's really the story

of Spanish history,

that this was a pretty

federal place

that had these deeply

regional identities

from long ago.

Franco tries to suppress that

and make everyone Castilian,

but that's not

what people wanted.

Aren't you impressed

by the feistiness

and the durability

of these linguistic groups?

They don't just roll over

and teach their kids

to speak the dominant language.

Well, Basque is a particularly

extraordinary case, right?

This survived, you know,

the Roman Empire.

It survived

Ferdinand and Isabella.

But similarly,

the Celtic languages,

whether it's Welsh

or Irish

or Scottish Gaelic,

I mean,

they have survived

thousands of years.

Well, let's have a moment

of silence for Cornish.

Oh, that's right, Cornish.

Although there are people

reviving it, actually,

and Manx as well,

from the Isle of Man.

Is that right?

Language is another Celtic one

being revived,

so the story may not be over.

Well, Ireland has actually

subsidized the survival

of traditional Irish language

on the West

in Gaeltacht,

national parks

for the survival

of the language, frankly.

That's what they are.

And, you know,

Ireland has had

its independence now

for a century,

and, you know,

I know many hoped

for the language

to be revived even more,

but a whole new world

of second language speakers

has been created.

Irish has a big place

in, you know,

the national culture,

and those Gaeltacht's

in Western Ireland,

I mean, they're some

of the most extraordinary,

beautiful, and culturally rich

and interesting places around.

You know, that leads me

to just wonder

about the complexities

and the disadvantages

or the hardship

caused by multilingual countries.

I mean, Belgium

is a good example.

They have a hard time

with its split

between French-speaking Walloons

and Dutch-speaking

Flemish people, right?

It's interesting.

I mean, you can look

at a place like Belgium

where, from what I understand,

you know, there is

some of that tension there, right?

And some would say,

you know, maybe

that they will split up.

You know, part of what

I understand in Belgium

was that it was the way

that French was put on top

that has led to some

of the resentments

and issues now.

But then you can look

at a case like Switzerland

where it's very successfully

multilingual,

and it sort of depends

on how you manage it.

I think, in and of itself,

it's not necessarily a problem.

Ross, I just want to finish

talking about

the nonprofit organization

that you are the co-director of,

the Endangered Language Alliance.

What is the mission

of the Endangered Language Alliance,

and what is its perspective

on Europe?

So we're a unique organization

based here in New York,

founded in 2010.

I tell the story of it

in my book, Language City,

which doubles as a linguistic

history of New York.

A lot of people forget

about the European linguistic

diversity in New York City,

which has been here now

for four centuries.

And virtually every

European language,

including all these

minority languages,

has been spoken here,

including all the ones

we've mentioned.

There's a church

where the services

are in Welsh.

There's a Basque club.

There's a Catalan

literature festival.

All of these languages

are actually here.

So in some ways,

if you can't get over

to Europe at some point

or you just want a taste of it

and you're in New York,

you can find it here.

Ross Perlin,

thanks so much for joining us

and best wishes

with your work,

inspiring and encouraging us

to be a little more multilingual

in our outlook.

Thank you very much, Rick.

Dr. Ross Perlin,

is the author of

Language City,

The Fight to Preserve

Endangered Mother Tongues

in New York.

He's also written

Internation,

How to Earn Nothing

and Learn Little

in the Brave New Economy.

A list of Ross'

upcoming appearances

is on his website,

rossperlin.com.

Up next,

travel host Onika Raymond

shares what it's like

to travel beyond

your time zone

and your comfort zone

as a black woman

traveling solo.

And listeners tell us

how they've been avoiding

the overcrowding

of the world.

and of bucket list destinations

to enjoy their own corners

of Europe this year.

It's Travel with Rick Steves.

It's her goal to educate

and encourage women

to explore the world.

Onika Raymond does that

in her travel writing

by hosting

About the Journey

on Apple Podcasts,

in TV shows

for the Travel Channel,

and as a correspondent

for CTV in Canada.

Onika joins us from Miami today

on Travel with Rick Steves

to talk about her experience

as a black woman traveler.

And to inspire other women of color

to join her in experiencing

the many delights

our world has to offer.

Onika, it's nice to meet you.

Thank you so much

for having me on the show, Rick.

You know, I have long wanted

to have this topic

and you're the perfect guest

because I'm really into travel.

I really believe

in the value of travel

and I'm a white male

and I'll never know

what it's like

to be a woman traveler

and I'll never know

what it's like

to be a black traveler

and certainly not

a black woman traveler.

And you are both.

Yes.

And you're on a mission

to creatively inspire black women

to be confident on the road.

You know, we have

a pretty wide industry

when you look at it straight

and this is so important

and I'd like to just start out

by asking you

what would you like me

to appreciate about this subject?

Thank you so much

for even opening the conversation.

I think that's really something

that's important to note

because I do think that

when you're in a position

of being the mainstream

or when you're in a position

of being the status quo,

it's so easy to close your eyes

to other people's experiences

and it's not even

necessarily malicious.

It's just the way things are.

We are highly individualistic.

We think of ourselves

and it's difficult for us

to put ourselves

in the shoes of others,

especially when our needs

are being catered to

because we do comprise

the status quo.

So I think more than anything else,

I think it's just really important

to acknowledge

that there are differences

for women like myself,

black women like myself

and other people of color

who travel the world.

We travel differently.

Doesn't mean that it's any less fun.

Doesn't mean that it's

any less transformative.

But there are different issues,

topics,

things that we have to navigate

in order to have

not only an enjoyable time

on the road,

but also a safe time on the road.

Are you more comfortable

because the world is black, brown, white,

and you go to a different continent,

a different corner,

and there's different dominant cultures.

I mean, I've traveled in places

where I feel like the minority,

but yeah,

generally I go to places

that are mostly white

and that's kind of Europe

and North America.

But if you travel in a place

that's mostly white,

it's a different experience for you

than in a place

that's mostly black, isn't it?

Well, sure.

I mean, look,

I think any black person

or person of color

who's grown up,

who has been born, raised,

or lived a significant portion

of their life in Europe

or in the United States

or in Canada,

I mean, you're kind of used

to navigating space

that are very white.

I know that for myself,

I was born and raised

in Toronto, Canada,

which is a very multicultural city,

but Canada on the whole

is a very white country.

And so I grew up having

to navigate issues of race

and culture and diversity

and having kind of a multiplicity

of cultural background.

You know, my family is from the Caribbean.

My family is Jamaican.

I grew up in a very Jamaican household.

And having that sometimes be at odds

with my Canadian identity.

But with that being said,

I do feel as though

it's a really beautiful thing

to travel to places

where people look like me,

where I don't have anybody

asking me questions

about my skin color or my hair.

There's a certain, I guess,

cultural fluency and fluidity

that comes with traveling to places

where people or where folks look like you.

So maybe that would be

a more relaxing vacation.

Yeah, definitely.

I mean,

I think I absolutely enjoy

traveling back to the West Indies

where my family is from,

traveling to the continent of Africa.

I mean, that's a beautiful thing.

Or even traveling some places in Europe

where we have very large populations,

very large black populations

like France, for instance.

I love going to Paris

because not only do I get

that stereotypical French culture,

but then I'm also able to engage

with the, I guess, also French culture,

but,

but the Afro-French culture,

which I think is so rich

and so wonderful.

Oh, yeah.

And that's something

that white travelers

may be oblivious to

is the richness of the black African French culture.

Yeah, oblivious to.

And if they're not,

exactly,

and if they're not oblivious to it,

they may be intimidated by it

because so often we reduce destinations

to, I guess, a single story.

Right.

And that's changing a lot now.

It's definitely changing a lot.

You're pretty much not getting it

if you go to Lisbon

and you think it's a bunch of white people.

Yeah, definitely.

And I,

I love that.

And I think that's where social media

has played such a large role

in opening up the world for people.

And, you know,

I'm an older millennial,

you know,

I'm in my 40s now.

And I remember

when I first started traveling

20 odd years ago,

there was no Instagram.

I mean,

Facebook didn't even exist at the time.

I went to France in 2003,

sight unseen.

I crossed the Atlantic

for the first time

and lived for a year in France.

In fact,

there were no

smartphones.

I used a phone card

and went down to a,

to a phone booth

to call my family.

And I only spoke to them

maybe like once a week

or once every two weeks.

So it was a very,

very different time.

I didn't know,

you know,

we were kind of going into the void

a lot of the time.

And so now we live in a different time

and you can go onto Instagram

and you can see that,

yes,

Lisbon of all places

is a very multicultural place.

And one,

where a variety of races

and cultures

and religions coexist.

And that's changed a lot

in one generation,

especially in,

in predominantly white corners

of a continent like Europe.

And the world,

even in countries that are,

that are just so homogenous,

is getting mixed up

and made more interesting

and more vibrant.

I think in general,

wouldn't you say people

are welcoming that

and celebrating that?

Oh, definitely.

I think we are seeing,

I guess,

what would equate to kind of

like a cultural mashup,

right?

Where we are really seeing,

you know,

we see it in Europe,

for instance,

where the countries are so small,

the distances between countries

and borders and cities

are so small

that obviously

is we have more

and more people moving there,

more people,

you know,

really integrating themselves.

We're seeing more,

I guess,

mixes,

even racially,

right?

Intercultural

and interracial relationships.

We're seeing,

we're seeing all this

intermingling of colors

and, you know,

literally and figuratively,

right?

And nationalities

and languages.

And it's a beautiful thing

because I think it just makes

everybody a little bit more open

and hopefully a little bit more,

more tolerant.

So there are,

there are none of these surprises

or these,

these shocks.

You know,

something that I've said in the past,

which I've said it kind of

tongue in cheek,

but in a way it's kind of true

and it's really resonated

with a lot of the people

who read my,

my stuff

or who follow me online

is,

is basically

anywhere you travel

in any corner of the world,

you are sure to find

a Chinese person,

somebody who's Dutch

and a Nigerian.

I swear to you,

you could go to the farthest reaches

of Russia

and you will find

each one of those nationalities.

And I think that just really speaks

to how people

are just moving

and claiming the world,

making the world their oyster.

They are migrating

to different places.

For additional opportunities.

And they're just doing it.

You know,

there are not as many barriers

as they were before.

It is not as strange

or as novel

as it was in the past.

And now people are everywhere

and exploring

and living

and enjoying themselves

as they see fit

in different places.

This is Travel with Rick Steves.

We're talking with

travel journalist Onika Raymond.

And she's joining us

from Miami right now

to share her perspective

as a black woman.

She's a black woman

who loves to travel

and why she's dedicated

so much for travel writing

and teaching

to inspire other black women

to be comfortable on the road.

She's the host of the podcast

About the Journey.

You can also find Onika

on the Travel Channel

as the host of a show called

Big City Little Budget

and another show called

One Bag and You're Out.

Her website is

onikaraymond.com.

That's spelled

O-N-E-I-K-A

onikaraymond.com.

Onika, I was enjoying your website

and there's lots of information there.

And I'm sure you'll find

a lot of information there.

And I'm sure you'll find

a lot of information there.

You talked about two things

as a black woman on the road,

the celebrity treatment

and being profiled.

That's kind of like...

Two ends of the spectrum.

Two ends of the spectrum, yeah.

Talk a little bit about

the serious issue

of being profiled.

As a white person,

I wonder what could be

the downside.

And, I mean, pretty clearly,

it's hard to imagine

the indignity of being profiled.

What's that like?

What kind of an issue is that?

And then what about

the celebrity thing?

I try to travel the world

without fear.

I try to travel the world

with an open mind.

But at the end of the day,

I can't control

the way I am perceived.

And there are certain historical

and political things,

incidents that make it such

that as a black woman,

as somebody who is visibly black,

who presents, you know,

I mean, I wear a head wrap

a lot of the time.

In the past, I've worn dreadlocks.

I've worn my hair in dreadlocks.

I currently wear braids.

You know, people have a certain idea

in their mind of who I am,

where I'm from,

and what my intentions are.

And to their eyes,

to their mind,

I present a threat.

And so I absolutely

have been profiled

going through immigration.

I've had people ask

or officials ask for my passport,

trying to ensure that I have

the proper documentation

to enter into a country,

as my other companions.

Yeah, treatment that you wouldn't get.

So my other, you know,

if I'm traveling with somebody

who is white,

and particularly a white male,

they aren't getting that treatment.

They aren't getting that scrutiny.

And that's the type of place

that we live in, unfortunately.

That's the world that we live in.

And so that's really something

that I don't want black people

in particular to harp on that.

I don't want it for them

to be a deterrent to travel.

But I absolutely do want them

to be aware of it.

And I do want them to be,

to be equipped to deal with it.

Now, Onika, you talked about

presenting as a black person.

Yes.

With a wrap and your hairstyle

and so on.

There are certain countries,

if you're a gay person,

you would not want to present

as a gay person,

unless you're really on a crusade

to make that clear,

because it's dangerous.

Well, here's the thing.

Something that I always say with,

whether it's sexual orientation

or whether it's religion,

by and large, a lot of the times

there aren't necessarily

physical expressions of that.

As a dark,

skinned black woman,

there's no,

I'm not fooling anybody.

I am not,

I am not fooling anybody.

I, I present the way

that I present with

my African features,

my wide nose,

my crinkly hair,

my mahogany skin tone.

And I love it.

I own it 100%.

You own it.

I was just going to say you own it.

You've got pride

and confidence in your step.

And I would think

that's kind of a travel skill.

If you are a person

that is wondering,

will I be comfortable?

Oh my gosh.

Oh my goodness.

Absolutely.

It definitely does help

to be confident in yourself

and to walk with purpose

and to take up space.

And that's the way

that I have decided

to live my life.

And that's why I really want to,

particularly with my travel stories,

I always want to make sure

that I am empowering people.

Yeah, you're doing a service

to other people by owning it

and embracing it.

You know, I hope so.

I think that leading by example,

is really, really important

and being a visibly black woman,

dark-skinned woman,

and just going about the world

and making it her oyster.

I think that that's really significant.

And then you can get more

of that celebrity treatment.

Tell me about the celebrity treatment.

Well, that's definitely

one of the positive aspects

of traveling while black

is getting noticed

and having a lot of praise

kind of heaped upon you.

I've had people call me Beyonce.

I look nothing like Beyonce.

I would love to look like Beyonce,

but I look,

nothing like her.

I've had people call me Michelle Obama.

I've had people offer to buy me drinks,

just lots of special treatment.

And so that's something

that I always try to share with others,

particularly black women,

is that, you know,

that's the other side of the coin.

You'll get noticed,

but a lot of it is filled

with positive affirmations.

This is Travel with Rick Steves,

and we're talking with

travel journalist Onika Raymond.

She's dedicated so much

of her travel writing and teaching

to inspiring others

and other black women

to be comfortable on the road.

She's the host of the podcast

About the Journey,

and you can see her

on the Travel Channel.

She's the host of

Big City Little Budget

and also One Bag and You're Out.

Her website is

onikaraymond.com.

Onika, you know,

I would think that

you being a teacher

and you being somebody

so committed to this idea,

you also,

you're sort of a role model

on the road

for younger black people,

I would think,

looking up to you and thinking,

yeah, this is how we can do it.

What sort of responsibilities

do you feel

as a thought leader

in this subject?

Well, you know,

thank you so much for saying that.

I come from an education background.

I was a classroom teacher

for over 10 years.

I have my master's in education.

I worked with young children,

sixth grade through 12th grade.

So I don't take my role

as a role model lightly.

And I take it on with pride.

I take it on with aplomb

because I feel as though

it's really an opportunity

to serve people.

To serve and to lead

and to help.

To help these people

navigate places,

spaces,

destinations

that for them

are just intimidating.

Right.

And you're a leader

in that area

that people can emulate,

that can be inspired by.

There's not a lot of voices

doing what you're doing.

And there's a lot of people

that can benefit

from that encouragement

and that inspiration,

I think.

I appreciate that.

And I think that my ultimate goal,

my goal,

was never to be one of one

or to be one of few.

My goal is to continue

to create content,

educational content

for Black people

such that there's no longer

a need for it.

Anika, you're able to

gallivant around the world

and make the world

your playground.

And you've done a great job at it.

How does that factor

into your teaching?

Because a lot of people

who would look up to you

as a leader

and a Black voice in the media,

will never see their name

on a plane ticket.

That is something

that I do grapple with.

It's something that I acknowledge

and recognize,

particularly having come

from an immigrant background myself.

I have a Canadian passport.

I have a U.S. green card.

My family,

a lot of my family,

don't have that.

They are Jamaican.

They come from an island

and they have a passport

where even to travel

to the United States or Canada,

they need a travel visa.

They need to provide

proof of finances.

They need to have

all of this additional documentation

to be permitted to travel,

to leave the island

and to go somewhere else.

And that is the case

for so many people.

So there's something to be said

about passport privilege.

And I think what I endeavor to do

more than anything else

is to show people

what exists in the world,

what is possible for them,

and then to give them the tools

to figure out

how they can make that happen

for themselves,

whatever their nationality is

or where they find themselves.

It's been so great talking to you again.

Your website is onikaraymond.com.

The podcast is About the Journey.

Onika, if you could just give

a parting message,

what would you like

our white traveling audience

to take away from your teaching?

And what would you like

your black audience to take away?

You know, I would tell everybody

to just go,

buy the ticket first

and worry about the logistics later.

And then I would encourage,

I would encourage everybody

to practice empathy.

The world can be your oyster,

but I think it's really important

for all of us to be a good neighbor

as we make the world our oyster

and as we navigate

all these different places,

spaces and destinations.

So your fellow man,

whether he's a different color,

nationality,

or whether he speaks

a different language from you,

is indeed a human just like yourself.

And we should treat each other respectfully

and with tolerance.

The more we know each other,

the more we can be good to each other.

The more we can be good to each other,

the more we can be good to each other.

The more we can be good to each other,

the more we can be good to each other.

The more we can be good to each other,

the more we can be good to each other.

Exactly, exactly.

Just move with joy

and move with love.

I think that's my greatest hope

for everyone.

All right.

Onika Raymond,

words of wisdom from the road.

Thanks so much

and happy travels to you.

Thanks for having me.

We're having a party

I hope you are hearty

We're having a party

I hope you are hearty

Sing it to me too

And rum-ba-ba-loo-bum-bum-bum-ba-loo

Rum-ba-ba-loo-bum-bum-bum-bee

Intensify

Rum-ba-ba-loo-bum-bum-bum-ba-loo

Rum-ba-ba-loo-bum-bum-bum-bee

Intensify

Onika Raymond shares tips and opinions

to help you explore your own relationship

with the world.

You'll find her articles and blog posts

from visiting six continents

at onikathetraveler.com

Onika also lets us in on the nod

you may observe among fellow travelers.

You can hear about that

in a website extra from today's interview.

That's at ricksteves.com slash radio.

Next,

we're checking with you,

our listeners,

at 877-333-7425.

We're eager to hear

how you're navigating

around long lines and crowds

at the places you want to visit in Europe.

It's travel with Rick Steves.

You may have noticed

a theme popping up

in the last couple of years

when we talk about

popular tourism destinations.

Some of them have simply become

a bit too popular

and are overcrowded

and take a bit more effort to enjoy.

So we've put out an invitation

to our Travel with Rick Steves

listeners to tell us

how they find relief

from the stress of too many people

all wanting to see the same sights.

They've emailed their tales and advice

to us at radio at ricksteves.com

and our phone number is

877-333-RICK.

Michael's calling in

from Pine in Arizona.

Hey, Michael, thanks for your call.

Oh, thank you for taking my call.

I appreciate it.

Yeah, we're talking about crowds

and how that has been a part of our travels.

What have you done to avoid

the crowds?

Well, we took your backdoor philosophy

to heart.

And my wife and I decided

30 years ago

to go to Europe

to meet the people,

not necessarily to see all the sights.

So our top priority

is not to beat the crowd,

but we eliminate the crowd.

So we forego

a lot of the major sights

so we haven't been to Paris

to see the Eiffel Tower

or Rome to see the Colosseum.

But we haven't created

some of the most lasting memories

I think anybody has ever experienced.

For example,

we have shared recess

with nine students

from a one-room school in Switzerland.

We have helped three generations

of an Austrian family

move their cows

from the pasture to the barn.

We have watched a Black Forest farm host

bake.

Twenty-eight loaves of bread

in a wood-fired oven.

In Norway,

we were able to find

a World War II

German coastal fort

that was completely deserted.

We were the only people there

nosing around

to look at this thing.

And in the same light,

we found a Swiss

Army training

tank ground

where we could peek

in the windows

at the tanks

inside the tank sheds.

Again, we were all by ourselves.

Michael, these are all good examples.

Wow.

These are examples

of not having a bucket list.

You know, you started out by saying,

ah, we haven't done

the Eiffel Tower or the Colosseum.

You know, those are little,

well, those are bucket lists.

Check it off.

You've seen it.

Yeah, it's great.

But each one of those things

that you just mentioned,

those are the intimate memories.

Those really are

the most lasting memories,

aren't they?

Yeah, exactly.

And it's a trade-off.

So, you know,

this style of travel

is not for everybody,

but,

for us anyway,

it is much more meaningful.

We get to know the people.

We, as you say,

we go close to the ground.

Right.

And we stay on farms

and we stay

in one-bedroom apartments

with the kitchen,

which helps us do two things.

We can go to the local grocery store

where we can rub elbows

with the local people

and buy the food that they buy.

And it's much more inexpensive

than constantly eating

and eating

in restaurants.

So we can travel

at a much lower rate.

Yeah.

And then we can travel

more often.

And it's all carbonated

by the people you meet

and the experiences

that those give you.

I mean,

that, what you're saying,

is a travel skill,

is how to travel

in a way that opens you up

to these connections

with people.

And if you're staying in a,

I always say,

if you're staying

in a fancy hotel,

you know,

you're going to have

a friendly welcome,

but it's all angling

for a tip, you know,

to carry your bag

to your room

or something like that.

But if you're staying

in an apartment

and going to the corner

grocery store

and talking to the,

to the cheesemonger

about what cheese

you should have

and picnicking in the park,

that's where you're

going to meet people.

And, you know,

if that's your agenda

is to,

is to create those memories,

it can be done.

It's very rewarding,

I think.

Nobody can,

can guarantee

that you'll have

these memories

because a lot of them

are serendipity.

In fact,

we're so excited

about this mode of travel

as we've created

a free website

where we try

and encourage people

to consider it

as an important option

for independent travel.

That's great.

You have a website for this?

Yes, it's

europscountryroads.com.

I understand you were looking

for a non-touristy alternative

to Rothenburg

because Rothenburg's got to be

the most touristy city

in Germany.

I love it,

but boy,

it is built for tourists.

If there's,

if the tourism economy

was gone,

that city,

that city would have

almost nothing.

Yeah,

we love it too,

but we found

an alternative

called Machmuhl

and it's a walled city

with a castle

and it's entirely,

not entirely,

but if you see tourists there,

they're likely to be Germans.

Michael,

I spent years

looking for the quote

untouristy Rothenburg

and I never found it

and you have Machmuhl,

M-O-C-K-M-U-H-L.

I'm going to put that

on my list.

Yeah,

Omlats on the

O

and on the U.

Okay,

so you got your

double umlaut

to that word,

Machmuhl.

Yeah.

All right.

And we go to,

Swabia is almost

tourist free.

So in between

the Black Forest

and Bavaria

is a district

called Swabia

and they boast

that they have

more castles

and castle ruins

than any other place

in Germany.

Huh,

Swabia.

Very good.

Well,

Michael,

thank you for your call.

This has really

been an inspiration

just to think that

you've sort of

amped up

your travel experiences

by focusing

on those special moments.

Thanks, Michael.

Thank you.

Happy travels.

You too.

This is Travel with Rick Steves.

Our phone number is

877-333-7425.

You can email us

at radio

at ricksteves.com.

In fact,

Craig in Vancouver,

B.C.

emailed us

and he writes,

sidle up to the bar

and get a pint

in the neighborhood

pub in London.

Grab a glass of wine

and a Chiquetti

and stand at the corner

of one of the little bars

in Venice.

Join a raucous

shared table

at a beer garden

in Munich

and just talk

to the people.

You'll get all sorts

of insights

into hidden gems

that locals

have discovered.

Craig,

that is great advice

and wherever you're traveling,

you can get a drink

with the locals

and use that

as an excuse

to talk to the people

and, hey,

I love to go

to a university town,

find out where

the students

are hanging out

and buy the table

a round of spritzes

and then you are

suddenly the most popular

kid on the block

and you've got

a lot of friends.

One way or another,

meet the people.

Andrew's calling in

from Traynor, Iowa.

Hey, Andrew,

thanks for your call.

Hi, Rick, how are you?

Doing good.

How's your travels

been lately

when it considers

crowds and avoiding them?

Well, I think

like a lot of people,

they're getting

busier and busier

but one secret

I've found,

um,

is to hit the

less touristy areas

and I had one place

in mind

that I wanted to see

if you've ever visited.

So,

in 2018,

a group of friends

and I went from

Amsterdam to Berlin

which are obviously

very popular places

but on the way,

we stopped in this area

called the Harge Mountains.

Oh, yeah.

And it, uh,

was really incredible.

Very quaint,

very picturesque

but you could tell

they were not accustomed

to American travelers

which we thought

was a good thing.

It felt very authentic

and I was wondering

if you've ever been there

and if it's a place

that you would recommend

to fellow travelers.

You know,

the Harge Mountains

are in northern Germany,

aren't they?

And, uh,

they're up sort of

on the way to Berlin

in the north

and I've been there

a couple of times.

The fact is,

Americans just are not

inclined to go

to that part of Germany.

We all want to go

on the Rhine River

and the Romantic Road

and Bavaria and Munich

and, you know,

understandably so

but the Germans

and a lot of people,

who know a good place

for a vacation,

they really enjoy

the Harge Mountains.

It's famous because

that's where the Pied Piper

of Hamelin was

but, uh,

I've never,

I can't even think

of an American I've met

that's reported

on the Harge Mountains.

It's just not something

Americans tend to do.

Germany is an interesting

case that way

because after World War II

it was divided

into four zones,

I think French,

British,

Russian,

and American.

All of our German

travel dreams

are set in the

American sector

which,

which is Bavaria,

the south of Germany.

That's where our image

of lederhosen

and clinking mugs of beer

and umpah bands

and stuff,

that's,

that's pretty much

Bavarian more than German

but we think of that

as German, don't we?

Right.

This area,

I believe it was actually

part of the eastern Germany.

Is that right?

I think it was, yeah.

That was, uh,

what we think of

as eastern Germany,

that was the,

the Soviet sector, yeah.

And Berlin was a little

island of the west

embedded in

Soviet east Germany.

One of the things

I found really interesting

is this town,

Wernigerode,

where we stayed,

I think it's actually

pronounced Wernigerode,

uh,

you take a train

up to the Brocken

which is the tallest part

of the Harz Mountains

and it's a,

it's a pretty

popular thing to do.

Yeah.

I think maybe because

there's not a ton to do.

Yeah.

Um,

other than the old

buildings and castles

and whatnot but

just a really fascinating

area and I thought

it would be worth,

uh,

mentioning in case

anybody in your show

or anybody that would

listen might have

interest in a,

uh,

less touristy area

of Germany.

You know,

I think that there's

something to be said

even if the,

if it doesn't have

the razzle-dazzle sights,

you know,

it doesn't have

Neuschwanstein or,

or,

you know,

something that we

might all want to go

see,

just to be in a place

that's beautiful

and charming

and well-preserved

and,

and filled with

German vacationers

perhaps but without

any Americans

or without any

international travelers,

that's a delightful

experience and I would

say the,

the Harz Mountains,

I,

I believe it's spelled

H-A-R-Z

and,

the Harz Mountains

are just a great

example of that.

In a lot of ways,

former Eastern Germany,

the DDR,

the,

was,

um,

kind of in a,

sort of mothballed

and didn't change

that much,

uh,

during the Cold War

and then after,

uh,

Germany was reunited,

they had to scramble

to get the infrastructure

and,

uh,

and the affluence

and the efficiency

that the West

has been known for,

uh,

but a lot of that

old,

charming,

small-town,

half-timbered,

uh,

quaintness survives

in that part of Germany.

I'll be,

I'll be traveling

in a few weeks

into a region

called the Valley

of the Clueless

and it was a part

of Eastern Germany

that did not get

radio or TV reception

from the West

so they didn't really know

what was going on

in the West

like some of the towns

on the border

that could be connected

by the West

through media

even when that was,

uh,

supposedly forbidden,

you know,

or foreboden.

Interesting.

Yeah,

but,

uh,

it's a good,

good tip,

Andrew,

and,

um,

I hope that,

uh,

you have,

do you have any good

travels coming up?

I might be going

to Utrecht

to visit my

sister here

in April

next year.

Ah,

Utrecht.

That's the goal

with my two toddlers.

I think there's

a wonderful

open-air folk museum

near Utrecht

at Arnhem

that you might

want to go,

especially if you're

traveling with kids.

It brings all

of the traditions

of the Netherlands

together in this

one beautiful folk park.

I will definitely

check that out.

Thank you for the

recommendation.

All right, Andrew,

thanks for calling in.

Take care.

Bye.

You can hear from more

of our Travel with Rick Steves

listeners in Part 1

to this topic of

getting beyond

tourist sites

in Europe

that have gotten

a bit overcrowded

lately.

Those conversations

aired in August

on program number 763.

Listen from our

show archives

at ricksteves.com

slash radio.

And Ginger

in Redlands, California

has another great

example of how

a smart traveler

can avoid the crowds.

Ginger writes,

We went to the Acropolis

in the Parthenon

in Athens.

To beat the crowds,

we got in line

at the back entrance

at 7.30 a.m.,

30 minutes before

they opened their doors.

By 7.50,

the line behind us

snaked beyond

where we could see.

When the doors opened,

we walked and climbed

as quickly as we could

to the top

and enjoyed

a beautiful,

magical moment

where we were all alone

on the Acropolis

in Athens.

Such a great example,

Ginger,

of how all of us

need to be thoughtful

about being at

those popular places

when they're not so popular.

Dusty from Honolulu

emailed us,

and Dusty writes,

The island nation

of Malta

in the middle

of the Mediterranean

is part of the European Union

and an ideal backdoor.

They have 365 churches

that really come alive

during religious festivals

which are almost weekly.

Try going during

St. Joseph's Day

or Palm Sunday

or some other time

that's not in peak season.

You'll experience

local culture coming alive.

Processions can have

as many as 500 locals

in costumes participating,

and each village

rivals each other.

Mosta's Cathedral

is one of the largest

unsupported domes

in the world

with a World War II shelter

that's a museum today.

The three islands of Malta

also include

Blue Lagoon beaches

and medieval towns

like Rabat and Medina

which blend

Eastern, Western,

and North African styles.

Wow, Dusty sounds like a,

he's on the tourist

promotion board

of the island nation

of Malta.

That sounds really good.

And it's an island

that a lot of people

have one-day stop

when they're on a cruise ship.

It's a huge cruise

port.

It's an island

that's very easy to access

from different points

around Mediterranean Europe,

and it is an island

that I was impressed

by the fortifications.

It's just a totally

fortified island

in the middle

of the Mediterranean there,

sort of indicating

it's had a hard-fought history

and reminding us

of its strategic importance.

Great to hear from Dusty

about all the things

you can see and do

on that little tiny country

in the middle

of the Mediterranean, Malta.

Alice is on the line

from St. George in Utah.

Alice, thanks for your call.

Yeah, hi, Rick.

Thanks for taking my call.

Yeah, I found that

going, like,

for the Christmas markets

off-season,

there's nothing other

than the Christmas markets

themselves that are

crowded at all.

You know, theme parks,

boat rides,

tours, museums,

nothing.

So all the people

visiting Nuremberg

during the Christmas festival,

for example,

the Christmas market

will be focused

on the festivities

around that market scene,

leaving the rest

of the sites

that are worthwhile

all year long

less than the rest

of the sites.

Absolutely.

I walked right up

to the castle

and almost nobody

up there.

Free reign.

That's good advice.

Everybody's on the main square

enjoying it.

You're going to enjoy

the festival,

but the Christmas market,

but don't neglect

what the city is known for

365 days out of the year.

Exactly.

And like I said,

no wait.

So, you know,

best time to go.

So when were you there?

I was there last Christmas

and I'm going back again.

Actually, I went

to the Christmas markets

like two years,

last two years.

Really?

And I'm going back again.

Alice, where have you seen

Christmas markets in Europe?

Well, mostly in Germany.

And then I went up,

you know,

over in Paris, of course,

but mostly in Germany

and went into Salzburg

from Munich.

So how are they different?

I'm curious about that.

What distinguishes one?

Well, the first thing

is the German ones

really aren't really

that different.

You know,

maybe a few little

regional things,

but, you know,

you find the more differences

in the different countries.

You know,

like the Nuremberg

or sausages or something,

but really not

a lot different.

All the merchandise

is, you know,

substantially

the same.

Nuremberg sausage.

I love a Nuremberg sausage.

Did you eat

the Nuremberg sausages?

Yes, I did.

I always try to get

the specialty, yeah.

Oh, I love it.

Three,

the size of your little finger,

three of them on a little bun

with some nice mustard.

Oh, baby.

I even saw the Christkind.

She just happened

to be there

when I was walking through.

Oh, you saw the Christkind.

Tell us about the Christkind.

What was that like?

Who is she, first of all?

It was interesting.

Well, you know,

it was packed, obviously,

and she was trying to,

you know,

pay attention to the kids,

but it was just interesting

after seeing, you know,

Oh, that's great.

The Christkind, by the way,

for our listeners,

is the celebrity

of the Christmas season

in Bavaria,

in Nuremberg,

I think especially,

and she's a teenage girl

that's chosen to be

like the angel.

It's called the Christchild,

Christkind,

but it's a young girl

who really is the gift giver

for all the gifts,

and sort of the little children

are enamored by her,

aren't they?

Yes, they were,

and she really played

to them also,

and she was a great person

Oh, it was amazing

for me to see

this Christkind in action,

and I'll never forget,

she'd hold an audience

with all the little kids

looking up at her

like she was just

a gift from heaven,

and she said,

if you're very gentle,

you can touch my wings.

I'll never forget that.

If you're very gentle,

you can touch my wings,

and then all the kids

came up and got

to touch her wings.

And I've also noticed,

like I said,

not just museums,

which are empty,

but like the TV Tower

in Munich,

Boat Towers in Berlin,

Boat Tourism,

Boat Tours in Berlin,

the theme park

at Europa Park.

You could even

just walk right in.

I've never walked

into a theme park

without any weight,

and they let you

just stay on the ride

if you liked it.

You didn't have to get off

and go through again.

They're that empty

because it just sucks

all the travel oxygen

out of the city.

Everything's on the main square

for that Christmas market.

Oh, yeah,

it's elbow to elbow

at the Christmas markets.

So what's a highlight for you?

Because I'm fascinated

by people who just,

they go back year after year

for the Christmas markets.

What is it about it?

Is it the hot spiced wine?

Is it the little family?

Is it the family scenes?

Is it the craftsmanship

and the loving artisan work?

What is it about

these Christmas markets?

Oh, that's a really

interesting question

because I try to,

like I said,

squeeze in some other sites,

but I find that

as opposed to just going

museum after museum,

you know,

on a kamikaze tour,

it's just kind of relaxing.

You know,

you have a little snack.

Yeah.

You people watch.

You get something,

you know,

different that you're not

going to get here

in America to eat.

Yeah.

You know,

and then you throw in

a site or a tour.

Yeah.

And it's people.

I think it's a community

coming together.

It's just a,

like we go to,

we have a county fair here,

you know,

outside of Seattle,

and it's just,

half of the fun

is people watching,

all the families

that are there

and all the traditions,

and that's the same thing

at a Christmas market

anywhere in Germany.

Absolutely.

Alice,

thanks for your call

and have fun

at your next Christmas market.

Thank you, Rick.

Bye-bye.

Take care.

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© transcript Emily Beynon