Working: A Working Farewell and What We’ve Learned

Welcome back to Working. I'm your host, June Thomas.

And I am your other host, Isaac Butler.

And I am your other other host, Ronald Young Jr.

Isaac, Ronald, I am, as always, really glad to see you both. But I am also a little sad

to see you both because, as a lot of listeners already know, this is the final episode of

Working.

That's where I thought this was going, and I assumed that Isaac was going to do it.

Yeah, I really fucked up, you guys. I can't believe I missed an opportunity to sing a

dumb song into a microphone, which I feel like is my trademark.

You know, we've talked about this before. We could make this a musical episode. This

is our last chance.

No, we're not prepared.

We didn't. We didn't. We didn't. Among other things, the songwriting team of Pasek and

Paul was too expensive. We put a bid out. We said we have $7.35 to spend on this. And

they said that will get you one measure of music. You get four counts of music out of

it.

Ooh, four counts? You can do a lot in four counts.

I mean, if you just loop it, and then one of us freestyles over it, right?

There you go. I've been ready. This is my moment.

This is your moment. You got your moleskin filled.

Yo, I'm spaghetti. I'm ready to go.

Listeners, this is all the stuff we normally edit out that Cameron, maybe Cameron will

edit it out again. We're in suspense. We don't know.

Yeah, true senioritis over here, man.

Ooh, boy. It's like Joe Biden at 11.30 p.m. right now on this podcast. And on that note,

let's get to the actual meat of this episode.

All right. It's our last episode, so we're going to do something a little bit different.

Instead of inviting a guest on the show, we are instead going to talk about what we've learned

in the course of making it. What are the best tools, techniques, and general words of wisdom

that we've absorbed from our guests, and maybe from each other. How does that sound to you guys?

Sounds like a plan. Yeah, I love it. Let's do it.

All right. Well, let's start with you, Isaac.

Oh, okay.

You said it. Well, you've been hosting this show since 2020. You've talked to dozens.

Of talented people. Can you share something you learned that stuck with you?

Yeah, totally. So, obviously spoken to a lot of people. I think each one of those interviews had

wonderful advice and insights and thoughts. I loved all the guests. I learned so much from

them. So, I just decided to go top of the dome. It's like, what's the first thing that came to

you in the answer? Because otherwise, I'd just get mired in re-listening to all of my stuff.

And the first thing that came to mind was my interview with the choreographer and director

Annie B. Parson. And you may recall this one, June, from many moons ago, because at one point,

she said that she never gets creatively blocked. I think she was the first guest we asked,

what do you do when you get creatively blocked? And she was like, I don't really have a lot of

experience with that question. And I was like, what are you talking about? But then she said

this thing that really stuck with me, that the reason why is because she focuses and gets a lot

of inspiration from very small things.

One gesture, one image, one little moment. And so, you know, we've talked a lot on this show

about, hey, when you're feeling creatively blocked, sometimes you just need a break,

let your unconscious do its thing. It's got to digest what you've done. It's okay. It'll come

back. But I do think that that strategy, if you turn it into an actual strategy, is really,

really helpful. When you don't know what to do next, when you're feeling stuck,

when you have no idea what you're doing, just focus on something.

Something small. Just focus in on that. Don't worry about anything else. And just do that small

thing. Look at that small image. Write that one sentence, you know, whatever it is. And then that

will unlock the next small thing and the next small thing. And then eventually you have enough

small things that you can look at them and turn them into a big thing.

I think of things, it's so tiny that I feel like anything could be the beginning of something.

Like I'm really, I'm going to make a piece that's like 50 people moving in unison for,

an hour. I've been trying to make this piece for a really long time. And I don't have an hour of

unison movement. It's going to take me forever to make it and it's very intimidating. But I do have

like six seconds of movement that I know is going to be really cool. And so for some reason, I'm fine.

I'm very convinced by that. And I do think that everything is small things. Every, you know,

every huge thing is composed of a lot of very small things.

But it can be really hard to find that small thing that you're going to start on. So it can

be anything. Yeah, that's the thing. I think if you're really stuck, just pick one. It doesn't

actually matter. You should just pick something and do it. I also think that, you know, we have

a great idea for a book here, which is called Please Sweat the Small Stuff. And it's all small

stuff. Indeed. Okay, Ronald, I know that you've only been with us for much too short.

of time. But you've interviewed, well, at least 10 people by my count for the show. You've also

co-hosted multiple episodes of Working Overtime. Can you share one of your favorite lessons from

the show? So I think repetition is something that I've heard a lot on this show. Generally,

I'm not going to attribute it to any one person. But there's several people that talk about the

idea of having some sort of daily practice, whether it be writing, whether it be art,

whatever that is. And on

the episodes, one of the recent episodes, you and I, June, talked about my desire to develop a daily

practice. And I've really been thinking about that since we recorded that episode, which is

that I really want to get into the habit of doing two things every day, reading every day and playing

the piano every day. I want to get into a real habit of doing those things, because I think they

would be very good for me. But if I'm being honest, I think the most important lesson I learned on

this show was from both of y'all. And it was specifically about

hosting and producing a podcast. Now, I've been doing this for quite some time, but the working

podcast is a well-oiled machine. We have scripting. We are performing these scripts. We are going back

and forth all the time. There's a lot of writing that goes into this. And the two of you, Isaac and

June, have uniquely different styles. Like, June, you write a script. Isaac, you like to riff. I've

worked with both of you, and I love working with both of you and both of your styles. Like, both

of them have been very different styles. And I think that's one of the things that I've been

very conducive to me continuing to grow as a host. And so I would say working with both of y'all

has actually made me better at hosting. And I'm looking forward to what's next because of this

very short stint on this show, which I've enjoyed. And now that we walk out the door, I get to walk

out saying, like, when I look back at these moments, saying that I actually learned and grew

as a host from working with you two. Best answer ever.

Yeah, totally. Totally. I mean, I especially, I got the sense that the subtext was that you learned

more from me.

I'm just going to say, I think that in there was the clear message.

I mean, scripting's more useful. I mean, come on. So, like, I think he clearly was saying, you know.

These two schools of thought going head to head, do you riff or do you write? Which one?

Scripting can be useful, but let's admit, riffing, more impressive.

I will say, I'm going to recommend one episode of mine because you're talking about daily habits

and repetition. Amitabha Kumar.

Who I interviewed, I think, just after you came on board.

No, I did that one with you.

Oh, you did do that one. That's right. That's right.

I did that one with you.

Yeah. His whole thing was about a daily writing practice, which doesn't have to just be writing.

And I love his hack that he, like, has a little journal where he keeps track of whether he wrote

or not. So he gets, like, a little dopamine burst every time he completes a writing session.

Yeah.

June, June, June, June. What have you got?

Yes. It's true. I guess it's my turn. So, one of the interviews that had the biggest impact on me was the one that I had the biggest impact on me.

The biggest effect on me was my November 2021 chat with Oliver Berkman. He, at that point, had just published the book

4,000 Weeks Time Management for Mortals, which, as the title suggests, is all about reminding us

that it is impossible to do everything because time is finite.

You know, we're finite human beings and we're all going to die. And this finitude imposes,

has certain ramifications for how we think about time.

So I'm sort of trying to think about time management as a really important question. I think it gets, you know, those words very easily sound like something incredibly superficial or a bit sort of boring, that they're just to do with a certain kind of, you know, how you organise meetings and email and things like that. And, you know, those things are part of life. But life is a lot more than that, too.

His book came out a little bit after I'd sold my first book.

I'd figured that I'd keep working, you know, with as much of a book leave as I could negotiate, of course.

And that book helped me recognise that that was too much, at least if I wanted to feel good about my work and not burn out completely and utterly and totally.

I needed to think about my priorities, what really mattered to me. And that led me to leave my day job at Slate.

You know, and I realised that path isn't available to everyone. But the important thing was having a conversation with myself about what was realistically possible.

And, you know, deciding to leave a steady job is one thing. Decisions don't have to be quite so massive.

But the idea of spending quality time really thinking about and deciding on your priorities, I now realise is maybe the most important thing you can do.

I agree. I think, like, there's a specific way that you talked about making those decisions for yourself.

And the result of it was a book that I can, like, see, feel and read.

And I think in terms of especially being a freelancer, the riskiest parts of freelancing is not just, like, the days without a gig or, like, how am I going to pay rent, all that stuff.

All that stuff is regular stress. But the riskiest parts are saying, am I going to put all of my weight and energy into doing one thing, which is ultimately betting on yourself?

And I just feel like as freelancers and as, like, talented people, we have to do that constantly.

And I think that's what that represents for you.

It was the right thing to do, June. It was the right thing to do.

Yeah.

Woo.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I have so much trouble with this, with accepting this very thing.

I even have a copy of Oliver's book on my bookshelf, you know.

But I have so much trouble accepting and being at peace with the fact that you can't do everything.

Like, I know you can't do everything.

Yeah, absolutely.

Do you know what I mean?

But not translating that into a panicked, are you wasting your time?

You haven't read Proust yet.

You're going to die someday.

You know?

The way of approaching your life is really hard, at least for me.

And so, you know, I find it very moving that you were able to kind of take that and do something with it that wasn't about panic, that wasn't about, you know, oh, I don't have time to do everything?

Well, then I'll try to do as much as possible.

But instead about, like, really sorting through your life, I think, is amazing.

You know, the other thing is, like, by saying that, by, like, admitting that you can't do everything, it kind of makes the thing that you're doing that much more.

You know what I mean?

Because it's like, all of a sudden, it's saying, well, I'm never going to be able to do everything, so I might as well do the one thing that I'm super excited and passionate about, so that when that thing gets done, if I, if they take me out, if I'm gone tomorrow, at least wait for it got done.

And if you do that one time, every, if you do that project to project, then who knows how many projects you can complete before your time is up, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, to do that, you have to know, you know, what your number one priority is.

So, yeah.

It is a very useful exercise.

For Isaac, of course, it's reading A La Recherche du Temps Perdu, so he'll be back right after this.

Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back with more of our favourite words of wisdom from the show.

And we're back.

And we've reached the top of the line.

Coming up again, Isaac, can you share something else that you learned from the show?

Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonheur.

Oh, I mean, sorry, I was reading Proust in the original French there.

I got a little, I got a little distracted.

That's normal.

So, I interviewed Ariane Moyed, who played Stewie on Succession a while ago.

And, you know, I love Ariane.

I, you know, we worked together like a million years ago, but we had been out of touch.

And actually, we became friends again after that interview, which was very lovely.

Oh, that's cool.

But, you know, I love Ariane.

You know, the thing that really impressed me throughout was a kind of ethic that I think he would call, you know, his sort of immigrant DIY sensibility.

When he first came to the United States, he was undocumented.

He spoke English.

Not all of his family did.

He had to do some of the paperwork, you know.

And that sort of instilled in him this kind of DIY thing that, like, you know, if no one's giving you a job, create the work.

You know, if you want your theater company to.

To be a nonprofit, read up on how to do that and just do it.

Like, that information actually is out there if you want to spend the time to do it and learn how to do it and work on it.

And, like, that's like a thing we all know or that all creative people talk about.

What I thought was interesting is how much that has carried forward into the rest of his career once he found success.

To such an extent that he doesn't even have an agent right now.

Do you know what I mean?

Because he's like agents do get 10% of the money because they do 10% of.

The work.

I can just do that work and pocket that money.

So, you know, it just it just struck me this idea of, like, independence.

And when you feel like, you know, you can't get the thing from someone else to just create it yourself and to just always be thinking about, you know, where is the room for me to create the thing?

I just thought that was, like, really brave and and fascinating.

You know, that also appeals to me, I should say, because I am someone who does not.

Like asking for help and does not like relying on other people and has had to work to learn how to do that.

But I think it is useful to know that that strategy is still available to you, even when you're not like a scrappy artist making work in a basement anymore.

Yeah, I mean, that's the part of it that I find so inspiring that we all know, you know, the stories these days.

Oh, you know, if you're not getting a what do they call it?

A traditional publishing office self publish.

And that's the thing that people do.

But hurry in.

It's super successful at this point.

And so for him to maintain that vibe, because like that now is just how he operates.

That's the thing.

It's like it's not an act of desperation.

It's it's it's his mindset.

And that's what I find.

Yeah, that DIY isn't only when you're at the beginning of your career and someone's dad has a barn.

Like, yeah, it's successful in that way.

I think it's also like like he's really speaking to it, like as an independent audio producer.

Like there's there's many times in which just a quick story with wait for it.

We had a we had a deal with a different organization that was ready to produce the show and they strung us along for six months.

And after the six months, they were like, just kidding.

We have to focus on our four higher projects.

So they dropped us, which is why we ended up going independent for wait for it.

And doors open Tribeca.

All these things like really went well for the show.

And if we didn't have the idea of saying, like, we're going to do this on our own.

And there we might not have had other doors that open that were really helpful to us.

Maybe opportunities that wouldn't have been there if we had like waited for the official opportunity to come down the pipeline.

And in today's like society, especially in the media landscape that we're in right now, that idea of saying, I'm just going to go do it myself is kind of I almost feel like that's kind of the way to go.

And hopefully along the way, maybe you get some boosts that are really helpful.

But the idea of people used to look down their nose at self-publishing.

But now it's like people are self-publishing.

Self-publishing every day on TikTok, Instagram, on all the social medias.

Like you barely need the things that you once needed to have in the beginning.

So I think he's on the right track.

Yeah.

All right, Ronald, speaking of which, it's your turn for number two.

June, what was the name of those organizational tools that we talked about on that episode of working overtime?

PKM, personal knowledge management.

Okay.

So when we had that discussion about PKM, I looked into those tools.

And I got immediately overwhelmed and did not use them.

However, you having that conversation with me made me make a very hard look at my own PKM and my own organizational structure that I have that I use in Google Drive.

And I really went through and started as I'm like getting more knowledge and more information and uploading new documents.

It added another layer of organizational structure for my own brain to my own files in a way that probably could be done through PKM.

So I will likely look into it again.

But I wanted you to know that you even talking about it made me take a very, very close look at my own knowledge repository and take a hard look and say, like, how deep do I need to get into this?

Like, what do I need to be thinking moving forward?

Also, with my mom dying, I realized the idea of a knowledge repository is something that we could in some cases leave behind.

So it's really got my wheels turning on saying when someone finds this knowledge.

At some point, maybe it'd be my kids, my spouse, my friends, whoever, when they find it, what are they going to see?

And what could I do best for them to help organize it so that it makes sense to them if they needed to find something important?

So I wanted you to know that episode.

While I didn't use the actual tools you recommended, it really made me do some deep thinking about my own knowledge repository and what that means for the future.

So wait, so wait, so wait.

So you're not you're saying that you have a system other than just kind of keeping everything in your head.

And then you have a bunch of different.

You have a bunch of different notes on your notes app.

And then there's random scraps of paper that you've written ideas on scattered all throughout the house and then sort of marginalia and print books.

You have that.

That's not your.

Is that not a good system?

That is not my system.

And I'm learning that the three of us have three different knowledge repository systems.

And yours is the stuff of nightmare.

There's Isaac.

This sounds like riffing with your brain in a way.

You know, it's funny because it's still the difference between riffing and scripting.

In this case, in June, you're like, I'm scripted this.

And Isaac's like, this is jazz, baby.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I'm just I'm just I'm just Art Blakey over here taking like a 19 minute solo in the middle of Monan on stage in Tokyo or something.

This is something I'm gradually getting better and better at.

But I know that I will I will return to June's working overtime episode about PKM at some point and be like, yeah, I should fucking do that.

Well, here's the thing.

Ronald.

I actually think that your approach is exactly the right one.

It's not about the particular tool.

Like some of these apps are a little bit much, honestly.

And I, in a way, have kind of I'm still using them, but I've stopped kind of updating.

I don't add more, you know, plug ins or anything.

It is about collecting and connecting.

It's not about the particular tool.

It's just like, don't forget stuff.

If you, you know, find amazing insights or you have breakthroughs, don't lose them.

Or even.

Even, you know, quotidian ones that you can later, you know, add to something else to make something remarkable.

Our brains are just not meant to hold all that stuff.

They're they're good for having ideas, not holding on to them.

So, yeah.

PKM, baby, PKM.

Right.

That's why I have this file called ideas.

And how many do you have any sense?

You've been scrolling for a while there.

You are.

So that's the thing.

Like how many pages if you printed that out, do you have any sense how many pages that would be?

Oh, my God.

I wrote the book, Isaac.

Yeah, really?

Just print that.

Just print it.

Self-publish it.

Self-publish.

Yes.

It just keeps going and going and going.

Oh, my God.

Dina Hashem, you know, who's a stand-up comic, you know, said she has a notes file where she writes down all of the ideas that come to her as she walks around.

But she also has never looked at it.

And it's just like thousands of words of ideas.

I guess that serves a serves a purpose.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's amazing.

All right.

It's my turn again.

My second insight actually came from you, Isaac.

No way.

It did.

And it's something that actually I think I got from you when you posted it on Twitter.

You remember those glory days?

It was one of the most actionable items, as they say in the world of ideas books, that I've kind of received in the last few years, which was when you said that all writers should buy a laser printer.

I have to say, this is my one.

This is my one enduring piece of practical advice to every writer.

And I got it, just to give full credit before you talk about this more, I actually got it from David Adjmi, the playwright who wrote Stereophonic, which is now a big hit on Broadway.

He, I read an interview with him where they were like, what advice would you give writers?

He was like, buy a laser printer.

No, totally.

I mean, I, of course, had had, you know, terrible experiences with several inkjet printers, which I think everybody who ever buys one has, you know.

Well, the ink is expensive.

They're messy.

They don't do much beyond the most basic task.

And a lot of the time they won't even do that.

So I just gave up on them.

But, you know, you said the words laser printers.

They're boring.

There's a lot they can't do, but they also are much less error prone.

And if you're a writer, being able to print out your work on demand when you want to look at it and read it and mark it up, it makes a huge difference at all stages of a project.

And the one I got cost about 150 pounds, you know, 150 pounds.

I just use off-brand toner and it's a deal.

I'm a total convert.

Yeah.

You will actually make the price of the, of the, the price difference of a laser printer and inkjet printer back.

You will, you will make that price back on toner by the end of life of the, of the printer by far.

And it just wasn't, wasn't expensive, you know.

Is it also a scanner?

No, it's not.

That's the thing.

The laser printer just laser print.

But yeah.

Oh.

Okay.

Gotcha.

Well, they have scanners.

They have ones that come with scanners.

My feeling is, this is the thing that this is part of the advice is that you want very specifically a black and white laser printer made by the brand brother that only does black and white printing.

You don't want one that does color.

You don't want one that does scanning.

You don't want one that faxes.

I guess that's still a thing.

You just want like the most basic because those are the most reliable.

The more features that get put in it, the more.

Weird it gets like, I would prefer to have one that doesn't even do Wi-Fi printing.

I just want the dumbest fucking rectangle that spits out paper that I, that I can find scanning.

I could do on my phone now.

Do you know what I mean?

It's like, yeah, that's, that's, that's my personal perspective on it.

Yeah.

And, and that really, you know, proved out.

It also made me think just generally about tools, you know, do you need a printer to write?

No, you know, you can do it with a 20 cent pencil and a 50 cent notebook.

But.

But, you know, I've also learned that.

Where are you getting a 20 cent pencil and a 50 cent notebook?

I'm sorry to keep cutting you off, June.

No, no, no, no.

From the national health, Ronald.

Inflation might impact you when you move.

I'm telling you, this time of year, you go down to Target, you can get amazing stationery for really, really cheap.

It's this time of year.

It's very time based.

But yes, anybody listening to this episode and another time of year, they're going to be like, what?

But no, it's true.

I paid $40 for this pencil.

I've had those.

I've sold pencils for hundreds of dollars.

But anyway, that's not what we're talking about.

Yeah, my bad.

But I have learned that it's worth thinking about how much of a difference a particular tool could make.

Like if you have no funds to invest, then the cheapest route is the only one that you can take.

But just think about it.

And, you know, how would the ability to print out your drafts help?

How much time would subscribing to a transcription tool save you?

Would that be worth?

Whatever it might cost?

Would paying for a program rather than working with a free option make a significant difference?

So, yeah, I just think think about those tools.

Don't always take the cheapest option unless you have no other option.

That's made a big difference to my creative process.

Do you have a laser printer, Ronald?

I do not.

I don't have a printer at all.

And now I'm like, you know, what's funny is my mom has a printer.

And I still sometimes use her office and I always look at the printer.

And it was funny because she was like my Kinko's.

I would show up and go, Mom, I need to print this out.

So I show up to her house and she'd hand me stuff in a folder and be like, that'll be 10 bucks.

And I'd be like, OK.

And she'd be like, no, I'm just kidding.

Of course, you can have it.

But it was just it was just very cute.

That interaction we would have several times a year where I'd be like, Mom, I got to print something out.

And I'd run over.

But she made me really understand the value of a printer because we're still signing a lot of things digitally and scanning things on our phones.

But there's still something to be said about physically.

There's still something to be said about physically having something in your hand, which comes into play when you just need one piece of paper.

Right.

I have to say, you know, I've done a bunch of archival research for this book, which is, of course, amassed in large scanned, you know, PDFs on my phone.

And then is, you know, in the cloud and I can read it on my computer and stuff or on my iPad and even highlight it.

But for me, anyway, nothing compares to just like printing out the giant stack, taking it to a coffee shop with a pen and just going actually through it.

Right.

I noticed so much more stuff.

I also work faster.

Like I work both faster and better.

So I just think the more we can get back to tangible objects, the better.

All right.

We're going to take another break.

And when we come back, we'll read some lovely listener emails.

You definitely don't want to miss that.

All right.

Before we go.

We wanted to share a few listener emails we've received recently.

It's been really lovely to hear from people who are sad to see us go.

One listener named Dana says.

I don't need to send a voice note or anything profound.

Just a quick note to say that this is hands down my favorite podcast.

I never miss an episode and it has sustained me through a really rough period.

You've given me lots of hope, encouragement and community through hearing others creative processes.

I will miss my Sundays with y'all and second Thursdays, which I always miss.

I also loved June needs to start a stationary podcast.

Missing you already, Dana.

I just want to say, Dana, thank you so much.

But most importantly, correct about how June needs to start a stationary pen notebook bullet journal themed podcast or tick tock channel.

I think you would become a huge hit on tick tock.

Just going through and reviewing stationary and stuff like that.

You should.

You should actually do that, June, because.

I'd 100 percent listen to you talk about, well, most things.

But definitely if you started talking about stationary, I'd be like, yeah, go for it.

All right.

Five cent pencil.

Where can I get that?

At Target.

Well, there are some.

I will just put a couple of shout outs for great stationary podcasts.

The Pen Addict.

You interviewed the Pen Addict for this show.

I did.

Now you make me feel bad that I didn't interview the guys from Erasable.

Also, Stationary Cafe.

So those are three.

Three stationary podcasts to be getting on with.

And June's tick tock stationary show will launch in two weeks.

Some date to be announced.

All right.

Here's another email.

Ronald, do you want to share what Dura said to us?

Sure.

Hello, working team.

This is my first email to y'all, but I've been a listener since the beginning.

I'm so sad to hear you're ending the podcast and I want to express my gratitude.

The podcast helped me a lot.

As I was graduating with an MFA in musical theater writing and entering the dreadful state of live theater in 2020.

Though Isaac Butler's interviews are more relevant to my field, I'm equally drawn to each and every episode.

The extra working overtime episodes have been enlightening as well.

I have to admit that I sometimes fantasize about getting on the podcast as a guest myself.

I'll miss the podcast very much.

Thank you so much for all your work.

Best, Dura.

Aw.

Dura, I'm going to invite you on my TikTok channel.

Well, I will say.

Nice.

So it is happening.

We did have a couple guests come from people pitching themselves to us.

You know, they would write and they'd be like, I'm a big fan of the show.

You know, I do X, Y, and Z.

You know, one of them was actually Allie Slagle, the New York Times food writer, which was a great episode.

I had a lovely time talking to her.

So I am sad, Dura, that, you know, in a year or so, we wouldn't.

We wouldn't have received an email from you asking to be on the show and had you on.

Thank you so much for writing us.

It really means a lot.

Yeah, it really is.

One of the things, though, when Dura mentioned, you know, going into live theater in 2020, I mean, my goodness.

What a time to be alive.

But also, you know, when we started in 2020, it is a good reminder that, you know, we started right at the beginning of the pandemic.

Our first interview happened the day after.

Do you remember the meeting we had in June?

We had this meeting in January at Slate offices.

This was before Cameron was on the show.

It was me, June, Ruman, and I think Gabe Roth.

But I think it was just the three of us meeting at that point.

And I was like, hey, so if we were trying to figure out what we were going to do if this pandemic thing happened.

Right.

You were the first person I knew who mentioned it.

Yes.

Yeah.

And we're like, huh, we should probably have a plan for that.

And then sure enough, June, as you were saying.

Our first episode aired, I think, right after all schools shut down or something like that.

It was like.

Yeah.

It was bonkers.

And so, you know, so much change.

And yet, you know, it's astonishing now that we aren't still talking about it every day.

I mean, obviously, some people are.

But yeah, that really blows my mind that just to think back to how things were in 2020.

And that really did, you know, change a lot of people's processes.

So, yeah.

We also heard from.

Listener Danielle.

She's been listening to the show since it was hosted by Jacob Brogan.

Shout out to a friend who's now at the Washington Post Boot World.

And she has enjoyed the focus on creative work as well.

We also have a funny story from a listener named Sharon.

I'll read that one.

She writes, don't go.

I am literally crying.

You may not remember this, but I am pretty sure I was your first listener query.

I had written a short story and gotten feedback from the editor that I should, quote unquote,

write more.

And yes, it has only recently occurred to me that she may have meant that I should write more stories.

Not that I should write more on this story.

I worked on it intermittently over the past few years and managed to finish it recently.

Taking a deep breath, I submitted it again.

Unfortunately, what I hadn't done was read the submission requirements about word count.

The story is now about 900 words too long.

I will go through and see if I can show less while maintaining the story's integrity and resubmit if I can.

Wish me luck.

As I do all three of you, stay well and thank you for all you do and have done.

Talk about overachieving.

That's true.

I mean, it is a good point that like it's, you know, whether or not the advice of the feedback, you know, keep working, keep writing.

That is what she did and that is what everybody needs to do ultimately, right?

Keep working.

Keep working at it.

Yeah, no, totally, totally.

I'm so glad that, well, first of all, it's great.

To have the sort of circle closed with someone, you know, that we gave advice to.

I've always loved interacting with our listeners and getting their emails and phone calls and trying to help them out.

And I will also say like, you know, it's okay to take a couple years to finish a short story.

You know, she related it somewhat comically, but, you know, it's like everyone goes at their own pace.

You know, there's the pace that the industrial world of publishing.

Needs authors to do, but that doesn't have to be your pace.

Your pace could be a short story every five years.

It could be a short story every hour.

It does.

It really, it really doesn't matter.

And so finishing the thing is the most important.

And so Mazel Tov for that.

Yeah.

All right.

Let's look at one final email.

Jack from the UK has a question.

Isaac, you want to read that?

Yeah.

Should I do it in a bad English accent?

No, absolutely not.

Yeah, that's offensive.

Okay.

Now do it.

Oi, governor.

What the?

You rascal, Jack.

Wait, Jude did it too?

Offensive.

If only it was an Australian reader, then I could have done my amazing Australian accent.

What are some good media sources, websites, newsletters, podcasts for the kind of topics you cover on working overtime?

Routines, creativity, work habits, et cetera.

Would be good to have some things to fill the gap you'll leave.

All the best.

Jack in London.

Okay.

You'll not be surprised that I am going to jump in here because this is my happy place.

Okay.

There are a couple of podcasts I get a lot of ideas from.

The first is Focused, whose tagline is, there's more to life than cranking widgets.

I beg your pardon.

I know.

We can discuss it.

The hosts of that show spend a lot of time on intentionality and the whys of productivity.

I love it.

Secondly, I do enjoy, as you know, Isaac, the occasional productivity book.

And I often learn about them from a show called Bookworm.

As it happens, Focused co-host Mike Schmitz is one of the hosts of Bookworm.

So, you know, small world, but a good world.

Now, Cal Newport, who is the king of productivity, he wrote books like Deep Work and Slow Productivity.

He has a weekly podcast called Deep Questions.

Personally, I can't really get along with it.

He annoys me.

But there is a reason he's so popular.

So that's a me thing.

On YouTube, Ali Abdaal, a Brit, says a lot of smart things about getting work done.

And last year, he published an interesting book called Feel Good Productivity.

And if you're interested in routines, and believe me, I totally am.

There are thousands of routine videos on YouTube.

I've watched most of them, I think.

Just search for AM routine, writing routine, nighttime routine, or whatever routine you're looking for.

And prepare to be served up some serious content.

What about you two?

What are your favorite routine videos?

I don't have any favorite routine videos.

But I will say, there is a podcast that most people probably know that I listened to before I even knew about working that was very inspirational to me in terms of the gems that would get dropped about process and stuff.

I don't even think they were trying to teach people about process.

They were just telling stories.

But the name of the show is How I Built This.

Oh, yeah.

From NPR.

And it's a bunch of luminaries that they have on there that are talking about how they built their businesses.

And they're literally just giving you the game as they go.

Like, I did this.

We kept all the purses in our garage.

That's the Kate Spade episode, which is an excellent episode.

We didn't quit our job until this point.

We were broke.

We were living.

You know, like all of the things that you learn about building a business or building a brand, whatever, they're all like just these wonderful gems from people who have done it.

So I really enjoy having that.

So I really enjoy How I Built This.

I think it's a great podcast to listen to in the gap.

It's still on.

And then always you can just go through the back catalog of working because even though we're not here anymore, there's probably episodes that you can go back and listen to that will hit differently as you continue to grow in your own creative endeavors and career.

Yeah, totally.

I do not have a favorite routine YouTuber or productivity podcaster, I will admit.

But I'm going to recommend one that's more about the creative process.

But you'll find lots of lessons within it, which is a podcast that I'm surprised isn't talked about more called the Team Deakins podcast.

Do either of you listen to Team Deakins?

Never heard of it.

Okay.

So Roger Deakins, one of the most preeminent and prestigious directors of photography alive.

Yeah.

His wife, James, is his script supervisor.

So they work together.

And during the pandemic, they started a podcast.

It's a podcast where they just interview their friends about making movies.

But their friends are like Joel Cohen, you know, or like Denis Villeneuve.

Right.

So they interview first.

So you get interviews with incredibly high level craftspeople that are far more frank and forthcoming than they would normally be because they're just talking to their friends.

But they also interview key grips, lighting technicians, editors, sound guys, boom operators, other directors of photography.

So not only will you learn an enormous amount about the movie world, you'll hear some great gossip and all of that stuff.

But more importantly, these are all craftspeople.

It's all craft.

It's all getting the job done.

And as they relate these stories about how they did these things, you will learn an enormous amount that is adaptable, I think, to any creative process.

It's also very charming.

The Deakins are not interviewers.

They're not journalists.

They're people who work in the industry.

So it has a sort of rough, you know, oh, what do you think about this?

Do you use it?

You know, it just has a very rough, friendly, you know, like you're just listening to a great chat around the table.

And it is often, like I said, much franker than you would expect it to be.

Just to give one example, the director of photography of the first three Matrix movies is totally happy talking about what went wrong on the second two and why they're not good.

And he's very frank about them not being good.

And he'll tell you what happened and why it didn't work.

You know, it's like stuff like that.

So I really highly recommend it.

It's really charming.

You'll learn an enormous amount.

Jack, get ready.

Tune in.

Well, that is unfortunately all the time we have this week and, well, forever.

We hope you've enjoyed the show.

If you have, do check out our back catalog.

Maybe go back and listen to some of the episodes we mentioned today if you haven't already.

We'll make sure to link to those episodes.

To link to those episodes in our show notes.

Working was originally launched by Gabriel Roth, June Thomas, myself, and Ruman Alam.

Morgan Flannery was our initial producer.

We've had a bunch of other co-hosts over the years besides Ruman.

Karen Han, Nate Chenin, Kristin Meinzer, TK Dutez, and Ronald Young Jr.

We've loved working with all of them.

Our longtime series producers, Cameron Drews and Kevin Bendis,

have picked so much ass in making us sound amazing week after week.

And we are especially grateful to all of our listeners.

It has been such a joy to make this show for you, to interact with some of you over email.

We've learned an enormous amount doing it.

We hope you have, too.

If you have any parting words to share, you can still reach out to us anytime at workingatslate.com.

We'll continue to get those emails.

Okay.

Ronald, you want to take us out for the last time?

I would love to.

Listeners, I'm only going to say it one more time.

Get back to work.

Oh, now I've lost my Zoom window.

Where the hell's the Zoom window gone?

Come on.

Oh, I thought you were being emotional, but no, it was just about your Zoom window.