016 後期ベートーヴェンはヤバい 後編

ねえ後期がねすごく不思議な軽さに行くっていうのがあって

Hey, there's something really mysterious about going to the latter period with such a lightness.

その話もねぜひ聞きたいんだけど

I would definitely like to hear that story too.

一つはさっき聞いてた16番のフィナーレですね

One is the finale of number 16 that I just heard.

ちょっと聞いてみましょうか

Shall we ask a little?

今の冒頭のレディータでしょ

It's the lady's data from the beginning, right?

これ楽譜の頭にムスエスサインって書いてある

It says "Muses sign" at the top of this sheet music.

核あるべきかっていうのがムスエスサイン

The question of whether there should be nuclear weapons is the "Musuesu Sign."

トイがねムスエスサインって書いてある

It says "Toy is a museum sign."

楽譜の頭に入ってる

It's in the beginning of the sheet music.

これも

This too.

キャーキャーキャーみたいなやつのさ

Something like "Kya kya kya."

すごい単純じゃん

That's really simple, isn't it?

すごい単純なところにいったなって

You've gone to a really simple place, haven't you?

これが助奏なんだよ

This is assistance music.

まもなく主部が始まるんだけど

The main part is about to begin.

これ

This.

パッパンパンがねエスムスザインって書いてある

It says "Pappanpan is Esumusuzain."

核あるべし

There should be a nucleus.

これ核あるべし

This should have a core.

じゃあ結論は出たんですね

So the conclusion has been reached, huh?

で書いてるもんだから

Because I'm writing it like this.

これ哲学的な深淵な問いだと

This is a philosophically profound question.

言われてましたんだけど

I was told, you know.

絶対そうじゃないと思うので

I absolutely don't think that's the case.

もうただの押すだけでしかも言えないし

I can only just push, and I can't say anything else.

あの河西府にやる打ち印をいくらにするかっていうので

It's about how much to set the payment for the stamp to be sent to that Kawanishi prefecture.

ムスエスザインエスムスザインと書いたんじゃないか

Did you write "Mususainen Sumusain"?

という説もあるもん

There is also a theory that says that.

どういう意味?

What does that mean?

いくらにやるかしかこれでいいやっていう

"I'll just go with whatever price it is."

えへへ

Hehe.

なんかさベートーベンの電気をさ

It's like Beethoven's electricity.

漫画で小学生の頃とか読むとさ

When you read manga as an elementary school student...

よく力持ったんですけどもこれを読むとさ

"You were really strong, but when I read this..."

なんかさベートーベンの電気をさ漫画でさ小学生の頃とか読むとさ

You know, when I read about Beethoven's electricity in a manga when I was in elementary school...

めっちゃ深刻やん

That's really serious.

最後はさ、耳が聞こえなくなってさ

In the end, I became unable to hear.

なんか血を這うようにさ

It feels like blood is crawling.

最後さ、なんだっけ?

In the end, what was it again?

我に光をじゃなくて

Not "give me light"

悲劇が終わったね

The tragedy has come to an end.

我に光をじゃなくて

Not "give me light."

違う

Different

なんかそれでさ、私の見た漫画は

Somehow, the manga I saw was...

拳を握りしめて、拳を高く上げて

Clenching your fists, raise your fists high.

なんか雷が

There's some thunder.

ビシャーみたいになって、死ぬみたいな

It feels like I'm going to die, like a bishar.

人とは思えないよね

It's hard to believe they are human.

いやー、後期のベートーベンってさ

Well, you know, Beethoven's later works...

やっぱりもう

I knew it already.

滑稽と

Ridiculous and

フェイスをするみたいなものが相まった

It feels like something resembling a face.

世界に入っていて

Entering the world.

すごい感動的だと思うんだよね

I think it's really moving.

あの展開部で

In that expansion section.

冒頭のね、あの

At the beginning, you know, that...

やんやんやんっていうのがね、戻ってくる

"You know, it comes back like 'yan yan yan'."

だからちょっと不協和音になって

So it became a bit of dissonance.

なんか、おーどうしたどうしたみたいな

Something like, "Hey, what's going on?"

なんだけど

It's just that.

なんてことなかったのように

As if it were nothing.

で、てーんてーんって戻ってくるから

So, it comes back with a "teen teen."

あの辺がもう、あんなに

That area is already like that.

あんからめーへの音楽をね

It's music from Ankarame.

守備一貫した論理を組み立てようとしていた人がね

The person who was trying to construct a consistent logical defense, you see.

もうなんか

Well, something...

平気の平座でこう

I'm fine, sitting calmly like this.

シリアスとのんびりが同居している世界に

In a world where seriousness and relaxation coexist.

行ってるっていう

I'm saying I'm going.

いや、いよいよ感情というか

No, it's finally about emotions, I guess.

なんか、もうサイレンみたいだもんね

It feels like a siren already, doesn't it?

そうそうそう

That's right, that's right, that's right.

もはや

No longer

いや、もはや

No, not anymore.

なんていうの

What do you say?

過ぎ去る何か

Something that has passed.

になってるっていうか

It's more like it's become...

なんでさぁ

Why is that?

いわゆるエモエモじゃないのにさぁ

It's not really what you would call "emo," you know?

これに感動するんだろうね

I guess this will move you, right?

やっぱいろいろ入ってるからな

Well, it has a lot of different things in it.

そこ抜けに明るいってわけでもない

It's not like it's exceptionally bright there.

かといってシリアスにもならないように

But I don’t want it to become too serious either.

いろんなことが

Various things.

あるされっていうことで

It's called "alser."

そういう話みながら

While watching such talks

まあ、悪いことがあったら

Well, if something bad happens

じゃあどや

Well then, how about that?

楽器の話しか

Are you talking about instruments?

小さく言ってくれる

Please say it softly.

どうなるのかな

I wonder what will happen.

この2つが

These two things.

もしかして

Perhaps.

こう

Like this

これで終わりなのか

Is this the end?

すごいな

That's amazing!

胸打つでしょ

It hits you in the chest, doesn't it?

めちゃくちゃ感動できたと思うんだよね

I think it was extremely moving.

これが実際最後だね

This is really the last one, isn't it?

この後に

After this

13番の

Number 13

付け足しフィナーレってのが書いてあるんだけど

It says "additional finale" but...

それをね

That.

すごい不思議な音楽で

It's an incredibly mysterious music.

一見すると

At first glance

ロシア民謡みたいな感じなんだけど

It has a feeling like a Russian folk song.

途中謎の転調をひたすら繰り返すところがあって

There's a part that repeatedly shifts mysteriously in key.

そこがすごい不思議ですね

That's really mysterious, isn't it?

今みたいなやっぱりね

Just like now, after all.

謎軽やかさと

Mysterious lightness and

謎

Mystery

ある種こう

In a certain sense, like this.

モナリザの微笑み的な何かで終わっていくというか

It's like ending with something reminiscent of the Mona Lisa's smile.

謎の滑稽さを叩いて終わっていく感じとかはやっぱね

It definitely has that feeling of ending with a mysterious absurdity, doesn't it?

すごくいいと思いますね

I think it's really great.

これ16番の

This is number 16.

三楽章なんだけど

It's the third movement, though.

ここさ

Here.

,

,

和音が小さい音でこう移り変わって

The harmony shifts like this in a quiet sound.

ダイナミクスだけついてるみたいな

It seems like it's only about dynamics.

そう徹底的にもう切り詰められてて

It's been thoroughly cut down already.

なんかそれも修行演奏団の人が言ったんだけど

Someone from the training performance group said something like that.

レッド弁を演奏する上で大事なものが二つありますって言って

There are two important things when it comes to playing the red valve.

それダイナミクスとハーモニーだって

That's dynamics and harmony.

旋律とかは大体どうでもいいですよね

Melodies are pretty much unimportant, right?

旋律を綺麗に歌うとかじゃないんですよ

It's not just about singing the melody beautifully.

ベートーベンは

Beethoven is

ダイナミクスとハーモニーがとにかく大事って言って

They say that dynamics and harmony are really important, after all.

16番の三楽章の中間部分は

The middle section of the third movement of No. 16 is

ダイナミクスとハーモニーしかないって

It's just dynamics and harmony.

旋律がもうなくて

The melody is gone.

完全に和音とハーモニーの進行と

The complete progression of chords and harmony.

ダイナミクスがすごい細かくついてるらしいんだけど

I hear that the dynamics are really detailed.

そこしかないって言っていて

You said that's the only place.

16番の三楽章はもう極自ですね

The third movement of No. 16 is really something special.

うん

Yeah.

ベートーベンの

Beethoven's

を徹底的に抽象化すると

If thoroughly abstracted,

これになるって

It will become like this.

だからさっきの抽象化的な何かよ

So it's something abstract like what we talked about earlier.

だから中間部

So the middle part

絵、真ん中の部分もね

The middle part of the picture too, you know.

前半部分もさっき見たらすごいメロディアスな

The first half was also really melodic when I looked at it just now.

音楽なんだけど

It's about music, but...

中間部が徹底的に切り詰められた

The middle part has been thoroughly shortened.

ザ・ベートーベンみたいなものになってる

It's become something like Beethoven.

なんかそういうものに興味が移ったってことなのかな

I wonder if that means my interest has shifted to something like that.

それで表現できることがあるって思ったことなのかな

I guess it’s something I thought could be expressed that way.

知らないね

I don't know.

だからさっきの話で言うと

So, going back to what we talked about earlier...

やっぱり意味

After all, it has meaning.

具象的意味的な領域から離れたってことだと思う

I think it means we have moved away from the realm of concrete meanings.

でもそれはひょっとするといっぱい抽象化するとさ

But perhaps if we abstract it a lot, you know...

抽象的って言うと

When you say abstract,

現実から離れる感じがする

I feel like I'm drifting away from reality.

だけど実はそこじゃないんじゃないかっていうのは

But actually, I feel like it's not really there.

さっきよぴこも言ってた

Yopiko just said that too.

アサさんの会話の研究みたいなのと一緒で

It's similar to a study of conversations like Asa-san's.

実は我々の現実がそれほど意味じゃないんじゃないかっていうか

Actually, it's not that our reality holds that much meaning, is it?

意味じゃない領域のいろんな営み具みたいなものを持ってる

I have various activities that are not in the realm of meaning.

別の連感っていうか

It's a different kind of resonance, or rather.

意味で繋がってない連感みたいなのがあって

There's a kind of connection that doesn't really have meaning.

そういうところに行こうとしてるのかもしれないね

You might be trying to go to a place like that.

そういう風な音楽になんかだんだん聞こえてくる

It starts to sound like that kind of music.

16番の中まさにそんな音楽で聞こえるよ

It sounds just like that kind of music in number 16.

今日はですねそういう風な音楽になんかだんだん聞こえてくると言うと

Today, if I say that music gradually starts to sound that way...

今日は全然紹介してないけど

I haven't introduced anything at all today, but...

ベートーベン的にはね

In a Beethoven-like manner.

自分は晩年に創作力が枯渇したと思ったけど

I thought my creative power had dried up in my later years, but...

久々にすごくいいのが書けたよみたいなことが言ってるのが14番なのよ

It's like saying that number 14 has written something really great after a long time.

14番で全7楽章があって

There are a total of 7 movements in number 14.

1楽章がすごくシリアスな風雅で始まって

The first movement begins with a very serious elegance.

いろんな曲を経た後に

After going through various songs

すごい突撃するみたいな終楽章で終わるっていう曲なんだけど

It's a song that ends with an amazing, almost like a sudden assault kind of finale.

確かに素晴らしいんやけど

It’s certainly wonderful, but…

俺からすると

From my perspective

今の文脈で言うと

In the current context, it can be said that...

すごい意味の音楽に聞こえる

It sounds like a music with a powerful meaning.

14番で

At number 14.

すごいいいんだけど

It's really nice, but...

で昔からその人気もあるんだけど

It's been popular since ancient times, though.

やっぱり16番とか15番のおしまいのところとか

As expected, it's the end of number 16 or number 15, etc.

大風雅みたいな

Like a grand wind.

意味連関では捉えることができない領域に

In the realm that cannot be grasped by semantic associations.

俺は感銘を受けるねより

I am impressed.

素晴らしいんだけどね

It's wonderful, though.

14番とかも

Number 14 as well.

うん

Yeah.

意味とか不小声

Meaning and whispers.

いやでもさぁ

Well, you know...

意味とか不小声

Meaning and whispers.

たくさん音は費やすにしてもさ

Even if it takes a lot of sound, you know.

喋ってる時はさ

When I'm talking, you know...

無意味な言葉とかさ

Meaningless words, you know?

とかその雰囲気とかさ

Things like that atmosphere, you know?

仕草とかまで含んでるから

Because it even includes gestures.

あんまり意味がなくても伝わってたりとか

Even if it doesn't have much meaning, it still gets across.

その場の雰囲気ができてたりするじゃん

The atmosphere in that place is already created, right?

でも音ってさ

But sound, you know...

基本的に出ない

Basically, it doesn't come out.

なんかオンオフ

Something like on and off.

出し方の問題はもちろんあるけど

There is, of course, a problem with the way it is presented.

それがダイナミクスってことなのかもしれないけど

That might be what dynamics is about.

でもあるかないかとか

But whether it exists or not...

なのになんでそんなことになるのか

Then why does it come to that?

まあ僕の見立てではですね

Well, in my opinion...

だからもともと音楽にはなかったはずですよ

So it shouldn't have been in music originally.

音だから意味わかんないでしょ

You don't understand the meaning because it's just sound, right?

で普通音楽はね

Well, usually music is...

歌詞がついてるから

Because it has lyrics.

歌の歌詞が意味を担ってたわけ

The lyrics of the song carried meaning.

で実際西洋の音楽もキリスト教のグレゴリオ聖歌みたいなものとして発展していくが

In reality, Western music also develops as something like Christian Gregorian chants.

ダンスの音楽になってるんだけど

It's become dance music.

だからまさにベートーベンぐらいが

So it’s just like Beethoven.

ウィン古典派くらいが

"About the classical style of Win."

そういう歌詞ではない

It's not that kind of lyrics.

器楽だよね

It's instrumental, isn't it?

器楽の音楽っていうのを開拓していって

"I'm going to explore instrumental music."

まさにハイドンが

Indeed, it is Haydn.

主題を

Subject

こねくり回す

to knead around

主題ろう作みたいなことによって

By doing something like wax modeling.

革新的な作曲法を発明した

I invented an innovative method of composition.

ということで

So, then.

モーツァルトもそれ真似して

Mozart imitated that too.

ハイドンセットみたいなの書いて

Write something like a Haydn set.

ベートーベンに行くみたいなルールがあるんだけど

There seems to be a rule like going to Beethoven.

その時にやっぱり抽象的な音なんだけど

At that time, it was still an abstract sound, after all.

それによって意味を構築できる

You can construct meaning through that.

ような音楽が

music like that

その他形式を筆頭に

Leading with other forms.

できてくる

It will be completed.

ベートーベンはある意味

In a sense, Beethoven is...

抽象的な音素材で

With abstract sound materials.

意味を構成するっていう

It means to construct meaning.

その意味を

That meaning.

作り上げるということを

The act of creating.

中期の時に死ぬほど極めた

I mastered it to the point of death during the middle period.

その一番わかりやすいモデルが

The easiest model to understand is

だから

So.

案から命へというよりも

Rather than going from an idea to life

案から命へというのは

From idea to life.

曲の印象の話であるけど

It's about the impression of the song.

わかりやすくてそうだし

It's easy to understand, and that's true.

もう少し言うと

To put it differently...

だから冒頭のテーマが

So the theme at the beginning is

曲の終わりに出てきた時には

When it appeared at the end of the song

全然違うものに

Completely different things.

そのプロセスの中で

During that process.

様々な可能性が吟味され

Various possibilities are examined.

そのポテンシャルがひたすら

That potential is relentless.

組みつくされていくから

Because it is being overwhelmed.

最後に出てきた時に冒頭のテーマとは

What was the theme at the beginning when it appeared at the end?

全然違う奏法を

A completely different playing technique.

聴いてる側が勝手に付与する

The listener imposes it on their own.

そういう音楽的な時間を

Such a musical time

まさに音楽的な意味を

Indeed, a musical meaning.

時間の中で構成するってことを

It's about composing within time.

やってたベートーベンが

Beethoven was doing it.

そういう意味の音楽から離れる

Distance oneself from music of that meaning.

しかもロマン派

Moreover, the Romantic style.

もちろんロマン派とかもね

Of course, the Romantic era as well.

その意味の音楽からは

From the music of that meaning

その意味では離れてるわけよ

In that sense, we are distant.

だけどもっと感情とか

But more emotions and such.

雰囲気とか

Atmosphere and so on

まさにアーノン・ブルガイの

Indeed, it is Arnon Burghart's.

公共詩みたいな形で

In a form like public poetry.

情景とか

scenery, etc.

そういう音楽

That kind of music.

気分とか

Feelings and such.

雰囲気みたいなものになるのに

It'll become something like an atmosphere.

後期のベートーベンはどう思う

What do you think of Beethoven's late period?

そういういわゆる

So-called

絵画でいうところの

In terms of painting

具象から離れていくような

Like moving away from the concrete.

純粋抽象みたいなものに

Something like pure abstraction.

関わっていった感があるね

It feels like I've been getting involved.

それが全く

Not at all.

机上の空論家っていう

It's called an "armchair theorist."

さっき言ったみたいに

As I mentioned earlier

非常に日常的に起きている

It happens very commonly in everyday life.

人間の言葉

Human language

言語とかの使い方の

Usage of language and such.

いわば抽象性みたいな

It's like abstraction.

ところに関わってる気がするね

I feel like I'm involved in that place.

全く現実から離れた音楽に

Music completely detached from reality.

聞こえないもん

I can't hear you.

ベートーベンの後期って

Beethoven's late period, huh?

音楽の広さに気づいたのかもね

Maybe they've realized the vastness of music.

いい話だね

That's a nice story.

なんかさ

You know...

クールの中で

In the midst of coolness.

書こうって思ってたけど

I was thinking of writing it, but...

でもこっち側には

But on this side...

もっと

More

なんかあるじゃんみたいな

It’s like, there’s something, right?

自分が中期の時に書いていた

I was writing this during my mid-term period.

音楽の領域よりも

More than the realm of music

もっと広い音楽があるってことだよね

It means that there is a wider range of music, right?

そうそうそう

That's right, that's right!

それはわかんないけど

I don't know about that.

その

That

広さの中で

In the spaciousness.

でもそしたらさ

But then, you know...

いろんなわかんないけど

I don't understand various things, but...

ポップスとかさ

Like pop music, you know?

なんかそういうのが

I don't know, something like that.

その先にはありそうな気もするけど

I feel like it might be there ahead.

やっぱり意味

After all, it has meaning.

意味って言葉がうまく

"The word 'meaning' is well expressed."

ちょっと言語

A little language.

言葉として適切じゃない

It's not appropriate as a word.

気もするけど

I feel like it.

なんかねタイトルがね

Well, you know, the title is...

付けられないと思う

I don't think I can do it.

なんかドビュッシー海みたいなのは

It's like Debussy's sea or something.

なんかないよね

There's nothing, right?

ないし

or not

純粋気楽になったっていうか

It's more like I've become carefree and pure.

すごい純粋気楽の音楽で

It's amazing, pure, and carefree music.

20世紀になって

In the 20th century

ようやく出てくる

Finally coming out.

抽象性みたいな感じ

It feels like abstraction.

だからまさにあの

So, precisely that...

絵画が具象から離れて

"Painting moves away from representation."

ほんと色と線と

Really the colors and lines.

あの

Um...

表面のテクスチャー

Surface texture

きめになったっていう

I heard that it has been decided.

話と同じような

Similar to the conversation

抽象性だと思うけどね

I think it's about abstraction.

一般に調整音楽の場合は

In general, in the case of adjustment music,

調整体系自体がもう

The adjustment system itself is already...

意味を持ってしまってるから

Because it has taken on meaning.

チョウチョウなら明るい

If it's a butterfly, it's bright.

単調なら暗いみたいになるので

If it's monotonous, it might end up feeling dark.

それから離れようっていうのが

"Trying to leave that behind."

無調だったわけだけど

It was unmodified, but...

なんか

Something.

後期のベッド弁は

The later bed valve is

もちろんその調整から

Of course, starting from that adjustment.

はみ出してるわけじゃないから

It's not like I'm sticking out.

調整の音楽にありながら

While it is music for adjustment

意味がわかんなくなってるっていうか

It's not so much that I don't understand the meaning.

あの

Um...

不思議なものになってるっていう

It has turned into something mysterious.

しかしそれがね

However, that's it.

めちゃくちゃ変じゃないってことが

It's that it's not really strange at all.

後に出てくる

It will come out later.

その無調の音楽のような

Like that untuned music.

もういわゆる調整とは違う

It's no longer what you would call adjustment.

別の無調っていうものですみたいな

It's something like another form of atonality.

なのに

Even so

いわゆる一つは調整という

What is commonly referred to as adjustment.

あるいはルールの中にいるのだけど

Or perhaps I'm within the rules.

そのルールの適用の仕方が

How that rule is applied.

だいぶ違う変わってるっていうか

It's quite different, or rather, it's changed a lot.

ルールの枠組みの中でも

Even within the framework of rules.

こんな風になれるっていう

"To be able to become like this."

音楽の感じがするよね

It feels like music, doesn't it?

なんかもう一個くらい聞きます

I'll ask one more thing.

そうですか

I see.

13番の五楽章じゃないですか

Isn't it the 5th movement of number 13?

ベッド弁自身が

The bedpan itself

泣いたっていう

They say they cried.

一押し

Recommended.

ベッド弁一押し

Bedside toilet recommended.

信じないぞ

I won't believe it.

作曲家の一押しとかは信じないぞ

I don't believe in a composer's recommendation.

いいねぇ

That's nice!

3回戦

Third round

の

of

映像

Video

昔で

In the old days.

3回戦

Third round

の

of

おやすみなさい

Good night.