辻田 真佐憲『文部省の研究 「理想の日本人像」を求めた百五十年』紹介〜 読書会主宰者2人による本の紹介！後編 7月後半編

動画をご覧の皆さんこんにちは 大学院合格受けおにの藤本圭一です

Hello everyone watching the video, I am Keiichi Fujimoto, the ogre who has passed the graduate school entrance exam.

さあ今回も藤本の格論をお届けしてまいります

Well then, we will bring you Fujimoto's argument once again this time.

今回はですね 読書セラピストの伊田昌吾さんをお招きして

This time, we have invited the reading therapist, Shogo Ida.

本の紹介でございます

This is an introduction to a book.

今回私が紹介するのは こちらの文部省の研究という本をご紹介していきます

This time, I will introduce this book titled "Research by the Ministry of Education."

先ほどの前半部分はですね 読書セラピストの伊田昌吾さんに

The first part from earlier is by reading therapist Shogo Ida.

精神科医の前奏を教える 心と体の正しい休め方という本をご紹介いただきました

I was introduced to a book titled "Teaching the Prelude to a Psychiatrist: The Correct Way to Rest the Mind and Body."

ありがとうございました

Thank you very much.

こういうですね お互いが本の紹介すると

It's like this, when we introduce each other's books.

なんか相乗効果になったりもしますよね

It can create a synergy, right?

特に精神科医の前奏という なかなか珍しい著者の人が書かれたものなんですけれども

It is something that was written by an author, which is quite rare, especially as a prelude from a psychiatrist.

マインドフルに流行っていますよね

Mindfulness is trending, isn't it?

そちらを追って 実は2つのアプローチがあって

In pursuing that, there are actually two approaches.

それが精神科医的な方法と 禅宗的な方法

That is the psychiatric approach and the Zen approach.

両方やってるって最強ですね

Doing both is quite powerful, isn't it?

そうですね 自分の武器がもう強い武器2つ

That's right, I already have two strong weapons of my own.

しかも似通っているもの

Moreover, they are similar things.

なので ここは何か強さとして出るのかなって思いましたね

So I thought maybe there would be some kind of strength coming out here.

私が今回紹介するこの文部省の研究

The research by the Ministry of Education that I will introduce this time.

どういうのかというところを 今からご紹介をしていきたいと思います

I would like to introduce what it means from now on.

何だと言いますと 今のですね マルチタスクであるとか

What I mean is that currently, it's about multitasking.

今どちらかというと 日本全体として求められている人間観って

Currently, what is generally sought after in Japan is a certain perspective on humanity.

例えば男女共に仕事をずっと 死ぬまでやろうみたいな

For example, both men and women seem to think that they should work until they die.

そういった人間観が求められていません?

Isn't such a perspective on humanity needed?

そうですね

That's right.

はい

Yes

医療機関と頼らないで 例えば時々自分でセラピーを受けたりとか

Don't rely on medical institutions; for example, sometimes consider receiving therapy on your own.

あるいはですね 自分自身で何とかするような

Or perhaps, trying to manage things on your own.

自助努力ができるような人みたいな

Someone who is capable of self-help efforts.

という形で実はですね 国として求める人間像っていうものは

In that sense, what the country actually seeks in terms of the ideal human image is...

今そういった 例えば死ぬまで働くとか

Now, for example, working until you die.

100までずっと働けるような人間である

I am a person who can keep working until I'm 100.

そして男女平等で 例えば男も女も

And in terms of gender equality, for example, both men and women...

時々産休とか育休とか取ったとしても

Even if I occasionally take maternity leave or parental leave...

どっちも働いてる方がいいんじゃない?みたいな

Isn't it better if both are working?

近い価値観が社会の中で 求められていると思うんですよね

I think similar values are being sought in society.

実はこういった求められる人間像

In fact, this is the kind of human image that is being sought.

あるいは理想の日本人って どういうイメージの人なのか

Or what kind of image does an ideal Japanese person have?

これって実はですね 考えている象徴があります

Actually, this has a symbolic meaning that I'm thinking about.

それが何かというと 文部科学省というところですね

What that is, is a place called the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology.

はい

Yes.

文部科学省 その前の前身が 文部省だったというところで

The Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology was previously known as the Ministry of Education.

今後ですね この文部省の研究という

In the future, this research by the Ministry of Education...

このジャーナリストの辻田さんという方が

This journalist named Tsujita.

理想の人間像 日本人像を求めた150年というサブタイトルを

The Ideal Human Image: A Subtitle That Explores the Japanese Image Sought for 150 Years.

研究でなさったというか まとめたのは文部省の研究です

What you did in your research, or rather summarized, is the Ministry of Education's research.

文部省が成立したのは だいたい明治維新が終わった

The Ministry of Education was established roughly after the Meiji Restoration ended.

明治の近代化が始まる頃なので

It was around the time when the modernization of the Meiji era began.

今で105、60年ぐらいの歴史になっています

It has a history of about 105 to 160 years now.

初期の頃っていうのは 結構ですね 理想主義なんですよね

In the early days, it was quite idealistic.

この日本人像 文科省が定める 理想の日本人の姿って

What does the ideal image of a Japanese person defined by the Ministry of Education look like?

年々というか 結構変わっていくと

It's been changing quite a bit year by year.

それを変遷を見ているのが こちらの話でございます

We are talking about observing that change.

ちなみに

By the way

明治時代の日本人像って 辻田さん どんなイメージですか?

What kind of image do you have of the Japanese people during the Meiji era, Tsujita-san?

布告強兵とかですか?

Is it about conscription or strengthening the military?

そうなんですよね 布告強兵

That's right, the announcement of strengthening the military.

実はこれ 初めからそうなんじゃなくて

Actually, it wasn't like this from the beginning.

途中から言ってたんですよ

I was saying it halfway through.

初めは自由主義教育像で

At first, it was an image of liberal education.

これすごいな 福沢諭吉の発想なんですよね

This is amazing; it's an idea from Fukuzawa Yukichi, isn't it?

何かというと 福沢諭吉自身が

Speaking of which, it is Yukichi Fukuzawa himself.

人は人の上に人を作らず

People do not create others above themselves.

天は人の上に人を作らず

Heaven does not create a person above another person.

天は人の下に人を作らずと言えり

Heaven does not create one person beneath another.

みたいな話で 学問の勧めを出しました

I provided a recommendation for academic study in a story like that.

これ何かというと

What this is, is...

本当に身分には 上下ってないんだけれども

There really isn't a hierarchy in status, but...

明らかに所得であるとか 地位に差がついている

There are clearly differences in income and status.

それは何によって生まれるかというと

What it is born from.

教育を受けているかどうか

Whether or not one is receiving education.

自分で立身出世のために 努力しているかどうかで変わってくる

It depends on whether you are making an effort for your own success or not.

だからこそ 立身出世して

That's why I want to rise to success.

自分自身の可能性を開いていく

Opening up one's own possibilities.

自由主義的な人間像教育が

Liberal humanistic education

人間教育が国として行うべきだ

Human education should be conducted by the nation.

実は初期の文科省は

Actually, the initial Ministry of Education was

そういう自由主義的な教育だったんですよね

It was that kind of liberal education.

だから面白いのは そこの中には

So what's interesting is that within there...

教育直後的なものがあって

There is something that is immediately after education.

一切なくて

Nothing at all.

だからみんな自分の近代化の社会の中では

So everyone is in their own society of modernization.

みんな勉強しなきゃいけない

Everyone has to study.

だから勉強ができるように

So that I can study.

学校を全国各地に作りましょう

Let's build schools all over the country.

それができるように

So that it can be done.

みんな学校に行く努力をしましょうね

Let's all try our best to go to school.

みたいなお話から始まってるんです

It starts with a story like that.

ただ こんな悠長なことしてたら

If we keep being so leisurely about this…

例えば日本って

For example, Japan...

ヨーロッパ諸国に 植民地にされてしまうかもしれない

It may be colonized by European countries.

ってことで切り替わるのが

So it's about switching gears.

まさに軍国主義的な教育といいますと

It can be said to be truly militaristic education.

その軍国主義的な教育を 学ぶときに

"When learning that militaristic education."

軍国主義的な教育像の中も

Even within the image of militaristic education

実はこの本の中だと

Actually, within this book...

2段階ぐらいに分かれてる

It's divided into about two stages.

つまり何かというと

In other words, what I mean is

軍国主義の初めのタイミングで

At the beginning of militarism

アジアの諸国としても

As Asian countries as well

ヨーロッパにいつ侵略されてもおかしくない

It wouldn't be surprising if Europe were invaded at any time.

だからとりあえず布告強兵で一生懸命

So for now, I'll do my best with the mobilization of troops.

日清戦争 日露戦争をやりきったような時期と

A time that feels like it has fully undergone the First Sino-Japanese War and the Russo-Japanese War.

もう一つは

Another one is

日清 日露及び第一次世界大戦で

The First Sino-Japanese War, the Russo-Japanese War, and World War I.

戦勝国になっちゃうと

If we end up becoming the victors.

それによって 例えば

For example, because of that.

世界の列強の一位になった後の日本で

After Japan became the number one among the world's great powers.

実は人間と違うんですよね

Actually, it's different from humans.

これを象徴的に表しているのが

What symbolizes this is

はい 教育直後ですと

Yes, it's just after education.

これは森掛問題の時に

This is during the Mori Kake problem.

ちょっと問題になった話でもあるんですけども

It's a story that's become somewhat of a problem.

教育直後 敬邸に言うに

Immediately after the education, I say to the respectful residence.

夫婦相和しみたいな

"I want to harmonize as a couple."

そういった言葉があるわけですよね

Such words do exist, don't they?

これ戦前の日本だと

This is pre-war Japan.

みんながこれを大事にしていた

Everyone cherished this.

というふうに思われがちなんですが

It tends to be thought that way, but...

実はできた初期っていうのは

Actually, what was created in the early stages is...

そうでもなかったと

It wasn't like that.

その証拠に教育直後を作り直そう運動っていうのは

As evidence, the movement to reconstruct education right after it takes place is…

結構戦前起きてるんですよね

It actually happened quite a bit before the war.

だから我々っていうのはイメージで

So, what we are is based on image.

教育直後だからできた時から

Because it was right after the education, I was able to do it from the moment I started.

ずっとみんながそれを大事にしていて

Everyone has always cherished it.

その違いがあるとか

There is such a difference.

全く考えないような人なんですが

They are the kind of person who hardly thinks at all.

実は明治の近代化で

In fact, during the modernization of the Meiji era...

アジアの小国としての日本の時に

Japan as a small country in Asia at times.

その教育直後ができたと

It was created shortly after that education.

その頃というのは

At that time

結構妥協の産物みたいな教育直後を作ったと

It seems like they created a kind of education that is a product of considerable compromise.

ただ日本が列強の一員として強い

Japan is simply strong as a member of the great powers.

列強の一員ですよと

You are a member of the great powers.

要は世界をリードする側ですよになった時も

In other words, when it comes to being on the side that leads the world.

同じ教育直後を解釈書いて使ったんですよ

I used the interpretation right after the same education.

だから教育直後って実は

So right after the education, actually...

もっと本当は緩い内容なんですよね

Actually, it's more of a relaxed topic.

緩い内容なんですけども

It's a light topic, but...

実は結構文字数も少なくて

Actually, it's quite short in terms of character count.

いくらでも解釈できるからこそ

Because it can be interpreted in countless ways.

初めはただ単純に世界のように負けないために

At first, simply to not lose like the world.

とりあえず無理して作ったような教育直後で

For now, it seems like it was made under pressure right after education.

それが世界列強で

That is the world powers.

アジアに文明の光を与えていくのは

It is to bring the light of civilization to Asia.

日本国家の使命だみたいな

It's like the mission of the Japanese nation.

変な解釈になってしまうというところで

It might lead to a strange interpretation.

解釈は変わっていくよというところが

The interpretation will change over time.

この本のハイライトかなというところですね

I guess this is the highlight of the book.

ちなみにですね

By the way,

森友学園の問題の時とか覚えてらっしゃいますか

Do you remember the issue with Moritomo Gakuen?

なんとなくチラッとニュース拝見してたりとかですね

I kind of glanced at the news or something like that.

安倍首相の奥さんとかが

Prime Minister Abe's wife and others.

例えばそこで理事とかを務めている森友学園の時とかが

For example, during the time of Moritomo Gakuen, where they held positions such as board members.

言うところに対して

In response to what you said.

例えば不正に国有地を売却したんじゃないかみたいなことが

For example, it could be something like selling national land illegally.

問題になりました

It has become a problem.

そこの森友学園だと

That's the Mori Memorial Academy over there.

教育直後を子どもたちが暗証しているというので

It is said that the children are reciting immediately after education.

今問題になっていたというか

It has been a problem now, or rather...

そういう教育をやっている場所で

In a place that provides such education.

それにはどうなんだみたいな声があったんですが

There were voices like, "How about that?"

あれって実は本来的にはアウトらしいです

It turns out that is actually considered out by nature.

何かというと教育直後って

Right after education, what do you mean?

バラバラに暗証するもんじゃなくて

It's not something to be done randomly.

みんなで一斉に読んだり

Everyone reads together at once.

校長先生が読んでいるものを

What the principal is reading.

ただで黙って聞くみたいな

It's like just listening quietly for free.

だから教育直後の在り方が

Therefore, the state of being right after education is

実はグダグダになっているみたいな

It seems like things are actually becoming a mess.

そのグダグダ加減というのは

That level of sloppiness is...

実は昔から一緒で

Actually, we've been together since a long time ago.

初めはそんな大した力なかったみたいな話も出ていますし

At first, there are stories that suggest it didn't have much power.

教育直後ってそんなすごいものじゃないんじゃないかと

I don't think it's really that amazing right after education.

作り変えた方がいいんじゃないかと

Maybe it would be better to remake it.

こういうスラムもあって

There are also slums like this.

そうやって戦前軍国主義の教育に突っ込んでいくと

As one delves into the militaristic education prior to the war...

だからこそ国のために占めるような人材育成というのが

That is why cultivating human resources that contribute to the nation is essential.

戦前の本当に戦争第二次大戦の時期で

Before the war, during the time of World War II.

第二次世界大戦の頃は求められているんですが

It was needed around the time of World War II.

その反動として戦後直後は自由主義教育

As a backlash, immediately after the war, liberal education emerged.

だからもう二度と軍国主義にならないように

So that we never become militaristic again.

だからひたすら平和主義的な教育を行う

Therefore, we will carry out an education that is purely pacifist.

ただそれもちょっとですね

Well, that's a bit...

世界的にも例えば朝鮮戦争が勃発したりとか

For example, the Korean War broke out globally.

あるいは世界的にですね

Or globally, then.

ソ連を中心とした共産主義革命が広がりつつあるということで

The communist revolution centered around the Soviet Union is spreading.

日本がそうなってはいけないということで

This means that Japan must not become that way.

日本は別の自由主義的なあり方を

Japan's different liberal way.

今度はですねちょっとやや国家主義的な感じ

This time it has a somewhat nationalistic feeling.

あるいは経済的な企業選手を育成するみたいな方向に

Or in the direction of nurturing economically successful corporate athletes.

文科省が求めるものが変わってきたと

The requirements from the Ministry of Education have been changing.

その企業選手のあり方も実は70年代から80年代でまた変わってきて

The way corporate athletes exist has actually changed again from the 1970s to the 1980s.

ただ会社のために猛烈に働くんじゃなくて

It's not just about working fiercely for the company.

プライベートも充実したりとか

Having a fulfilling private life as well.

あるいは男女雇用機会均等法などは

Or perhaps the Equal Employment Opportunity Act for Men and Women, etc.

男女の平等性を重視したりとか

Emphasizing gender equality and such.

そういった形で求める日本人の方たちは

Japanese people who seek in that way

どんどん変わってきたというところが

It has been changing more and more.

この文科省の研究

This research by the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology.

文部省の研究の中で

In the research of the Ministry of Education.

研究に描かれるというところでございます

It is a place where research is depicted.

だからですねこれを読むと

So when you read this...

文部省のあり方って決して

The nature of the Ministry of Education is never...

今みたいにずっと続いていたわけじゃないし

It hasn't always been like this.

戦前といってもですね

Even if we say before the war...

全部文国主義一色だったわけでもないんだな

It wasn't all just nationalism, was it?

ということは

That means...

上を曲折しながらも

While twisting upward

ちょこちょこ時代時代に応じた

Occasionally adapting to the times.

日本人のあり方を考えていく

Thinking about the way of being a Japanese person.

これから求められる日本人像ってどういうものなのかな

What kind of image of a Japanese person will be required from now on, I wonder?

っていうのをこれをヒントに考えられるんじゃないかな

I think you can come up with that using this as a hint.

というのがこの本を読んでの

This is what I got from reading this book.

私の結論でございました

That was my conclusion.

伊田さんここまで

Mr. Ida, that's it for now.

いかがでしたか

How was it?

でしたんでしょうか

Was it?

時代によってやっぱりあり方って

"After all, the way things are changes with the times."

変わっていく必要がやっぱり私もあると思うので

I do think that I also need to change.

これがどんどんね

This keeps going on and on.

AI側とかって言われる時代ではあると思うので

I think it's an era where we're talking about the AI side and things like that.

その中で

Among them

なんか一つ柱となるものがあると

If there is something that can serve as a pillar...

過ごしやすいのかな

I wonder if it's comfortable to live in.

というのをやっぱり感じたりしますね

I do feel that, after all.

そうですね

That's right.

それってなんか文科省

Is that something related to the Ministry of Education?

文部省だけで決めれるかと

Can only the Ministry of Education decide?

そうでもないものです

That's not the case.

だから時々臨時教育審議会みたいな形で

So sometimes it takes the form of a temporary education council.

いろいろな

various

有識者を集めての会議の中で話し合いを考えたりしてるんですけど

We are considering discussions in a meeting where experts are gathered.

理想の日本人像って結局誰が決めるのかなと

I wonder who ultimately decides what the ideal image of a Japanese person is.

いやあ

Wow!

難しいですよね

It's difficult, isn't it?

ちなみにあの伊田さんが考える理想の日本人像ってどういうものですかね

By the way, what kind of ideal Japanese person does Mr. Ida envision?

今の時代においては

In today's era.

やっぱりグローバル化とかそのいろいろ言われる中で

As expected, amidst all the talk about globalization and various other things...

私はやっぱり英語は使えなきゃとは思ってるんですけど

I still think that I need to be able to use English.

でも英語を使えることがってなったら

But if it becomes possible to use English...

どんどんせっかく日本語っていうものを持ってるのに

Even though we have the wonderful Japanese language, we keep letting it slip away.

その素晴らしさをなくしてしまうので

Because it would lose its wonderfulness.

一言では言えないですけど

It's hard to say in just one word, but...

日本語っていうのをまずしっかり使えるとか

First of all, being able to properly use Japanese.

大切にしていく中で

As I cherish it further.

変わっていく言葉もあるっていうところは

There are words that change over time.

やっぱり大事にしていく必要があるんじゃないかなと思うんですけど

I think it's really important to cherish it, don't you?

日本語だけを使っていくと

If I only use Japanese, then...

どんどん胃の中の数取り残されてしまうところ

It's a place where the number of things left in the stomach keeps increasing.

やっぱり多くあるんじゃないかなと思うんですけど

I think there are probably quite a few, after all.

その難しさはなんか感じてるなと

I do feel the difficulty somehow.

結構ありますね

There are quite a few, aren't there?

そうです

That's right.

はい

Yes

特にグローバリゼーションの時代であればあるほど

Especially in the age of globalization.

日本人って一体何なのかみたいなところが

It's like wondering what exactly it means to be Japanese.

問われてきているわけですよね

It has been questioned, hasn't it?

だから日本的なものって一体何なんだろうとか

So, what exactly is something that is Japanese?

また日本の教育において何を取り組むべきなんだろうとか

What should we focus on in Japanese education?

私自身がですね

As for myself,

世界的なグローバリゼーションの流れって当然あるんですけれども

There is certainly a global trend of globalization.

だからこそ今の時代だからこそ

That's precisely why, especially in today's era.

自分自身がしっかり勉強してですね

Make sure to study hard yourself.

自分の方向性とか自分は今後どうしようかなっていう風に

Thinking about my direction and what I should do from now on.

定期的に考えていく姿勢ってやっぱ大事だという風に思うんですね

I believe that maintaining a regular thought process is really important.

だからこそ理想の日本人像

That's why the ideal image of a Japanese person.

これで文科省が定めてるので別に

Since this is set by the Ministry of Education, it doesn't really matter.

昔は子供に関してだったんですけど

It used to be about children.

最近は社会教育とか生涯学習という形で

Recently, in the form of social education and lifelong learning,

全ての年代になってきてるわけですね

It seems that it's becoming the case for all generations.

私自身は全ての年代がいろいろと学びながら

I myself am learning various things across all generations.

試行錯誤して自分らしく生きていけるような

"Through trial and error, I can live authentically."

そういったことが大事なんじゃないかなと

I think those kinds of things are important.

でそのための応援チャンネルとして

As a support channel for that purpose.

伊田さんとの動画であると

It's a video with Mr. Ida.

また私の塾みたいなのがあってもいいんじゃないかな

I think it would be nice to have something like my own tutoring school again.

という風に思っているところでございます

I am thinking in that way.

今回ですね

This time, you see.

伊田さんとの読書をお話しましょうというところ

Let's talk about reading with Mr. Ida.

伊田さんの方から精神科医の伝送が教える

Mr. Ida will inform the psychiatrist.

心と体を正しい休め方という本をご紹介をいただきました

I was introduced to a book called "The Right Way to Rest the Mind and Body."

私からは文部省の研究という本をご紹介したわけでございます

I would like to introduce a book called "Research of the Ministry of Education."

どちらにしても言えるのは本って大事ですよね

One thing that can be said is that books are important, aren't they?

ということで読書しながらですね

So, while reading...

自分の今後の在り方またですね

It's about how I want to be going forward.

日本の在り方そういう風に考えていくのは

Considering Japan's way of being in that manner is...

すごく大事なのではないでしょうか

Isn't it really important?

特に疲れた時こそですね

Especially when you are tired.

そういった読書をすることで

By engaging in such reading

読書自体がマインドフレーズになるところもあると思いますし

I think there are also instances where reading itself can become a mind phrase.

あるいはこういう方法があるんだなと

Or rather, there is such a method.

だったら別の方法やこの方法をやってみることで

Then, by trying a different method or this method,

自分自身がもっと良くなるんじゃないか

I might become a better version of myself.

そういう読書で学んだことを生かしていけるようになると

When you can start to apply what you've learned from that kind of reading.

もっと生きるのが楽しくなってくるところもあると思いますので

I think there are also times when living becomes more enjoyable.

ぜひ参考にしていただければと思います

I hope you can find it helpful.

こういった形の情報発信定期的にやっております

We regularly provide information in this manner.

もっと見たいという方は

If you want to see more,

いいねボタンやチャンネル登録ボタン

Like button and channel subscription button.

また概要欄から

From the description again.

LINE登録メルマー登録もできますので

You can also register for LINE and subscribe to our mailing list.

ぜひやるにどうぞ

Please go ahead and do it.

今回も最後までご覧いただきまして

Thank you for watching until the end this time as well.

大変にありがとうございました

Thank you very much.

ありがとうございました

Thank you very much.