将棋棋士の羽生善治さんをお迎えした最終回。羽生さんのこれまで、そしてこれから。

tbs パンプキャース tbs ラジオミートアップ笹川ゆりと岩瀬大輔がお送りしています

TBS Pump Case, presenting TBS Radio Meetup with Yuri Sasakawa and Daisuke Iwase.

本日のお客様です将棋基地の羽生義原さんですよろしくお願いしますよろしくお願い致します よろしくお願い致します

Today's guest is Yoshihara Hanyu from Shogi Base. Thank you for having me, and I look forward to working with you.

それでは番組恒例の質問なんですが羽生さん子供の頃はどんな家庭の環境で育ったんですか

Well then, it's time for our show's traditional question: Hanyu, what was your family environment like when you were a child?

はいそうですねまあなんか自分で言うのも変ですけど多分まあ普通って言い方変ですけどどこにでもあるというような感じのところでまあ過ごしていたと思います

Yes, that's right. Well, it's a bit strange to say this about myself, but I think I was probably just living in a place that feels pretty ordinary, somewhere that's found everywhere.

まあ私はあの埼玉県の所沢市っていうところで生まれたんですけどあのまあ幼稚園の時からはですねあの波長寺市というところで引っ越しまして

Well, I was born in a place called Tokorozawa City in Saitama Prefecture, but I moved to a place called Hachioji City when I was in kindergarten.

でまあ妹が一人いてまあ家族4人でまあ暮らしていたと

Well, I had one younger sister, and we were living as a family of four.

まあそういう感じで

Well, it feels like that.

というところです

That's where we are.

あれお父様が将棋の騎士だったとかそういうわけじゃないんですよ

It's not like my father was a shogi knight or anything like that.

あ中は全然あの将棋は興味ないというかまあ年代的にはルールぐらいは知ってるんですけど基本的にアウトドア派なんであんまりそういうボードゲームとかそういうのにはまあ関心がないというところですね

Well, I'm not really interested in shogi at all. I know the basic rules due to my age, but I'm basically an outdoors person, so I don't have much interest in board games or things like that.

一番最初にあの将棋の番を見た時って何

What was it like the first time you saw that shogi game?

えっとどこだった

Um, where was it?

6歳の時に近所で同級生の友達がいてなんか野球やったりとか

When I was six years old, I had a friend who was a classmate living in the neighborhood, and we played baseball together.

ラジコンやったりとかいろんな遊びの中でまあ将棋も教わったっていうのがたまたまそういう遊びの一つで教わったのがきっかけです

I learned shogi as one of the various games, including playing with remote-controlled cars, and it just happened that I was taught it during those activities.

衝撃的なこれ面白いなっていうような感覚でもなかった

It wasn't the kind of shocking or interesting feeling at all.

そうですねだからまあトランプやるとかなんかダイモンドゲームやるとかいろんなことやる中の一つでしょうよそうやってでまあだんだんやってるうちにこれって面白いなと思うようになっていったというところです

Yes, well, doing things like playing Trump or Diamond games is just one of the many activities. As we gradually engaged in these activities, we started to think that this is interesting.

地元の将棋道場に通っていた期間もあるということでこれご両親の買い物に紐づいてるんですか

I heard you attended a local shogi dojo for a while; does this relate to your parents' shopping?

そうですね結構うちはその郊外というかあの車で40分ぐらいまで市内までかかっていたので1週間分の買い物を毎週土曜日にあのまとめ買いして行ってたんですけど

Yes, that's right. We live in the suburbs, which means it took about 40 minutes by car to get into the city, so I used to do a weekly grocery shopping trip every Saturday for the whole week.

子供がついてくるといろいろ大変なんでその買い物してる3時間4時間の間私は将棋道場で将棋させて終わった頃に迎えに来て帰るっていうまあそういう生活をしていました

When the kids come along, it's quite a hassle, so during those 3 to 4 hours of shopping, I would have them play shogi at the shogi dojo and come pick them up when they're done, so that's how I was living my life.

始めた頃から強かったんですかどれぐらいしたら

Were you strong from the beginning, or how long did it take?

結構勝ちまくるようになったんですか

Have you started winning quite a lot?

最初15球で道場に行って最初の3ヶ月間ぐらいは多分1回も勝てなかったんですね

In the beginning, I went to the dojo with 15 balls, and for the first three months or so, I probably didn't win even once.

だからまあ本当にルール知ってるだけなんで道場に来てる将棋を本格的にやってる人には全く歯が立たなかったんですけど

So, well, I only really knew the rules, so I couldn't hold a candle to the people who were seriously playing shogi at the dojo.

ただまあ子供なんでその3時間の間にこう20局とか30局とかいっぱいさせてくるんで

Well, since they're kids, they'll fit in a lot of games during those 3 hours, like 20 or 30 games.

で積み重ねてるうちにまあ1年ちょっとぐらいするようになったんですけど

While I was accumulating things, it ended up being about a year and a little more.

そういうようになったら結構あの少しずつ勝てるようになったというそういう感じです

It feels like I've gradually started to be able to win a bit more.

当時小学1年生とか2年生とかですか

Were you in the first or second grade at that time?

道場に行き始めたのは2年生ですね

I started going to the dojo in my second year.

勝ち始めるようになったのが3年生ぐらいかな

I think it was around my third year that we started to win.

そうですね3年生ぐらいになると今度その道場以外にも子供の将棋大会とかそういうのもたくさん出るようになったので

That's right. By the time they reach the third grade, they start participating in many other events besides that dojo, such as children's shogi tournaments and things like that.

まあそのあたりからかなり将棋の方に力を入れてやるようになっていたということです

Well, I guess that's when I really started to focus a lot more on shogi.

小学生の時はどうなったんですか

What happened when you were in elementary school?

小学生の時に一番初めに感じたその将棋の面白さってどのあたりだったんですか

When you first experienced the fun of shogi in elementary school, what aspect of it stood out to you?

なんて言うんでしょうかね

What can I say?

まあ勝負がはっきりつくっていうところも面白かったですし

Well, I found it interesting that the outcome of the match was quite clear.

あとなんかコツがよく分かんなかったっていうところも面白かったんですね

I also found it interesting that I didn't really understand some of the tips.

なんかこれなんかどういうふうにやればいいのかっていうのが全然見えなかったんで

I couldn't see at all how I should go about doing this.

そこが結構面白いと感じたところでした

That was the part I found quite interesting.

難しいが面白かったんですね

It was difficult, but it was interesting, wasn't it?

そうですね

That's right.

ただなんか全然分からないっていうよりも

It's more like I just don't understand at all.

部分的にはちょこっと分かることもあるっていうのがあって

There are parts that I can understand a little.

まだ分からないところもあるっていう

There are still some things I don't understand.

その分からないところと分かるところの加減が自分にとってはちょうど良かったのかなっていう気がします

I feel like the balance between the things I don't understand and the things I do understand was just right for me.

ちなみに当時将棋以外の学校の勉強とかスポーツとかそういうのはやられてたんですか

By the way, did you do any studies or sports other than shogi at that time?

そうですね

That's right.

ただなんかあれです

It's just that...

私小学生の頃って

When I was in elementary school...

漫画のキャプテン翼とかああいうのすごい流行ってたんで

Captain Tsubasa and things like that were really popular.

はい

Yes

学校行って休み時間とかは結構サッカーとかやってました

I used to play soccer a lot during recess while at school.

本格的なやつじゃないですよ

It's not the real thing, you know.

子供のいい加減なルールの適当な

Inconsistent and arbitrary rules of children.

はい

Yes

ですけど結構そんな感じ

But it's kind of like that.

ハブさんがサッカーやってるってなんか見てみたい

I would like to see Hub-san playing soccer.

見てみたい

I want to see.

いやもう今はボール蹴れないと思うんですよ

I don't think I can kick the ball right now.

そうなんです

That's right.

でもずっと将棋ばっかりやっているそのハブ少年を見て

But watching that Hub boy who is always playing shogi...

ご両親はもっと勉強しなさいとか

Your parents tell you to study more or something like that.

そういうのがあって

That's how it is.

将棋ばっかりやってるんじゃないとは言われたりせず

I don't want to be told that I'm just playing shogi all the time.

もうどんどんやりなさいという感じだったんですか

Was it the feeling that you should just keep going?

そうですね

That's right.

であのまだですね

Well, not yet.

実は私の小学生時代って塾ってなかったんですよ

Actually, I didn't go to cram school during my elementary school days.

小学校の高学年ぐらいになって

By the time I reached the upper grades of elementary school.

初めてなんか塾っていうのが近所にできて

A cram school has opened nearby for the first time.

世の中にこんなものがあるんだっていう風に思ったぐらいなんで

I was just thinking that there are such things in the world.

だからなんかまだ時代的にそんなに

So, it feels like it's still not quite the right time for that.

なんか勉強にすごい重きを置いてやるっていうところでは

It seems that there's a strong emphasis on studying.

なかったところが幸いしたのかもしれません

It might have been fortunate that it didn't exist.

そして奨励会に入られたのが12歳

He entered the training institute at the age of 12.

そうですね

That's right.

はいだからこのあたりからもうちょっと

Yes, so from around here a little more...

自分は将来こっちの道に行くのかもっていう感覚は

I have a feeling that I might go down this path in the future.

そうですね

That's right.

あの奨励会っていうのはプロの養成機関なんで

That training institute, known as the Shōreikai, is a training organization for professionals.

まあプロ野球で言えば二軍みたいな感じのところではあるんですけど

Well, it's kind of like being in the minor league in professional baseball.

小学生なんで

Because I'm an elementary school student.

なんかあんまり深く考えずに入ったっていうのは

I guess I entered without thinking too deeply about it.

まあ実情で

Well, in reality...

はいです

Yes.

ただあの今までなんかアマチュアで

Well, until now, I was somewhat of an amateur.

わきあいあいと指していたというところからですね

It's from the part where they were pointing at each other with friendly banter.

結構まああの養成機関で年齢制限とかもあるので

Well, there are also age limits at the training institutions.

結構厳しい雰囲気というか

It's quite a strict atmosphere.

なんていうか空気が全然違うんで

It's hard to explain, but the atmosphere is completely different.

そのシリアスな雰囲気に触れて

Touched by that serious atmosphere.

まあちょっと真面目にやらなくてはいけないなっていうことを

Well, I think I need to be a little more serious about this.

奨励会に入って思うようになったというところです

I think it has become as I hoped since joining the training community.

前対談させていただいた時にお話したんですけど

I talked about it during our previous conversation.

僕も小学校の頃に

When I was in elementary school, I also...

チェスやってて

I'm playing chess.

昼休みになったら

When it becomes lunch break

チェスのクラブのところに行って

Go to the chess club.

みんなで指して

Everyone, point!

お昼食べる時間最後5分か10分だけ残して

Just leave the last 5 or 10 minutes for lunchtime.

ずっとチェスのことばっかり考えてたんですけど

I've been thinking about chess the whole time.

ハブさんだったら

If it were Mr. Hub

本当に起きても寝てもずっと将棋のこと考えてるという感じだったんですか

Did it really feel like you were thinking about shogi the whole time, whether you were awake or asleep?

そうですね結構なんていうか

Well, how should I put it...

移動時間とかが私は長かったんで

The travel time was long for me.

移動時間とかでも結構その頭の中で

Even during travel times, quite a bit of it is in my head.

考えていたときに

When I was thinking

そういうことはあります

That can happen.

爪将棋という問題解いたりとか

Solving problems related to "tsume shogi".

そうですよ

That's right.

当時はスマホとかもちろんないわけなので

At that time, there were of course no smartphones.

過去の木札とか爪将棋のパズルみたいなものを

Like wooden plaques from the past or puzzles like tsume shogi.

ずっとやり続けるという感じなんですか

Is it a feeling of continuing to do it forever?

そうですね

That's right.

ものすごいアナログです

It's incredibly analog.

そういう本読んだりとか問題解いたりとか

Reading books like that and solving problems.

そういうことをやってました

I was doing things like that.

奨励会時代でお世話になった先輩とか師匠みたいな

Like the seniors and mentors who took care of me during my time in the training association.

方っていらっしゃるんですか

Is there someone there?

特に師匠のこと

Especially about my master.

何人かいます

There are several people.

師匠を紹介してくださった方とかは

Those who introduced me to my master, for example...

結構最初入会して1年ぐらいは

It was about a year after I initially joined.

結構直接教わってたっていうことがあって

There was a time when I was taught quite directly.

将棋の世界って師匠が弟子に教えるっていう機会は

In the world of shogi, there are opportunities for masters to teach their disciples.

少ないんですけど

It's a little bit.

一問で同問の人で教わるっていうことはあるので

There are times when you learn from someone who has the same question.

何人かの兄弟子の人が教わってたりとか

Some senior disciples are being taught.

そういう人には結構直接教わっていました

I learned a lot directly from such people.

師匠が弟子に教えるって機会ないんですか

Is there no opportunity for a master to teach their disciple?

そうなんです

That's right.

職人さんの世界と同じで

Just like in the world of artisans.

直接教えるんではなくて

Instead of teaching directly,

背中を見て育つというか

It's like growing up by watching your back.

そういう世界なんです

That's the kind of world it is.

ただちょっとそれ最近変わってきて

It's just that it has changed a bit recently.

それを見てると

When I see that...

いつまでたってもなんか進まない人もいるんで

Some people just don't seem to make any progress no matter how much time passes.

師匠が見るに見かねて直接教える機会が

The opportunity for the master to teach directly out of concern.

最近は増えてきてるっていう風には聞いてます

I've heard that it has been increasing lately.

教えるっていうのは対局して

Teaching means facing off against each other.

さっきのこう打った方が良かったよって

I should have hit it like that earlier.

教えてくれる感じですか

Are you going to teach me?

そうですね対局して終わった後に

Well, after the match is over...

完走戦っていって反省会みたいなのをやるんですけど

After the race, we have something like a debriefing session.

それを積み重ねていく中で

As I continue to build on that.

こうだんだんいろんなことが分かってくるっていうところですね

It's when you start to understand various things more and more.

奨励会は同級生の子が何人くらいいらっしゃったんですか

How many classmates were there in the training association?

同級生でも5、6人はいたんで

There were about five or six of them among my classmates.

ただあんまり数としては

It's just that the number isn't very large.

例えば同期で入会した人って

For example, the people who joined at the same time as me.

17、18人だったんで

It was 17 or 18 people.

そんなに数としては多くなくて

It's not that many in number.

でも大体もうみんな顔見知りなんですね

But basically, everyone is already familiar with each other.

将棋の世界って小さい世界なんで

The world of shogi is a small world.

子供大会で顔合わせてたとか

"We met at the children's tournament."

大人の大会でも会ったことあるっていう人なんで

I've met someone at an adult tournament before.

基本的には

Basically,

大体みんな知ってるメンバーで

It's mainly members that everyone knows.

入っていくっていうところです

It's the part where you go in.

そして15歳の中学3年生の時に

And when I was in my third year of middle school at 15 years old

史上3人目の中学生のプロ棋士になられたということで

You have become the third junior high school student to become a professional shogi player in history.

この時の世の中からの注目とか

The attention from the world at this time.

逆に中学3年生で感じる圧とかってあったんですか

On the contrary, did you feel any pressure as a third-year middle school student?

圧っていうか

It's more like pressure.

一応

Just in case.

社会人なんで

Because I'm a working adult.

結構中学生で社会人って

It's quite something for a middle school student to be a working adult.

すごい変な感じはありますね

It feels really strange, doesn’t it?

義務教育中だから

Because it's during compulsory education.

もちろん学校行かないといけないですけど

Of course, I have to go to school, but...

対局はもう社会人なんで

The match is already for adults.

絶対そっちは外すことはできないですし

There's absolutely no way to miss that side.

普通に大阪に遠征したりとか

Usually going on trips to Osaka and such.

地方行ったりとかっていうのも普通にあるんで

It's common to go to rural areas and such.

その辺はなんかすごく

That area is somehow amazing.

全然違う2つの世界で

In two completely different worlds.

揺れていたっていう感じはあります

I feel like it was swaying.

プロってことは

It means "Being a pro means..."

お給料が出る

Payday.

出ます

I will go out.

4段から棋士

Starting from 4-dan as a shogi player.

1人前の棋士として認められるんですけど

You will be recognized as a full-fledged shogi player.

3段までは無給で

Up to the third level is unpaid.

4段からは一応いろんな保証があるというか

From the 4th stage, there are various guarantees in place, so to speak.

給料が出たり対局料が出たりっていう形になります

You will receive a salary and also receive fees for matches.

これプロになるべきかどうか

Should I become a professional?

そうじゃない道もあるんじゃないかって

Isn't there another way?

この時考えたりはしなかったんですか

Did you not think about it at that time?

いやそれかですね

Well, that's it then.

なんか時間としては

It feels like it's been a while.

考えてみたかったんですけど

I wanted to think about it.

一度でもいいから進路について考えてみたかったっていう感じで

I just wanted to think about my future career path, even if just once.

小学生の時に決めてしまったんで

I decided it when I was in elementary school.

中学の時も高校の時も

In middle school and high school too.

なんかそういう感覚が全くなかったんで

I didn't have that kind of feeling at all.

なんかそういうのを思い悩んでみたかったなっていうのは

I wanted to think deeply about something like that.

ものすごく贅沢な悩みなのかもしれないですけど

It might be an incredibly luxurious concern, but...

そういう気持ちは結構ありました

I had quite a few feelings like that.

周りの人はまだまだいろんな可能性があって

The people around me still have various possibilities.

いろんな選択肢があって

There are various options.

そこで思い悩むっていう感じで

So it feels like you’re troubled about it.

そういう感じだと思うんですけど

I think that's the kind of feeling it has.

自分の場合はもう決まってしまったんで

In my case, it's already been decided.

もうどうにもならないっていう

It can't be helped anymore.

そういう感じはあります

I have that kind of feeling.

なるほど

I see.

今話題なのが

What’s currently trending is

ハブさんのツイッターだと思うんですけれども

I think it's Hub's Twitter.

なんとも可愛らしい

How adorable!

そして可愛らしさと将棋にあふれた

And filled with cuteness and shogi.

ツイッターになってますよね

It's on Twitter, isn't it?

今年からですか

Is it from this year?

そうですねまだ半年ぐらいしか経っていないんですけど

Yes, it's only been about six months.

4月2日8時23分

April 2, 8:23 AM

ハブさんの時間に始められたというところが話題になります

The fact that it started at Hub-san's time has become a topic of discussion.

はい

Yes

,まだ全然初心者で

"I'm still a complete beginner."

試行錯誤という感じでやっています

I'm doing it through trial and error.

将棋の解説

Shogi commentary.

動物と学ぶ将棋講座が大変人気だということで

It's said that the shogi course studying with animals is very popular.

そうですね

That's right.

やっぱりツイッター見てる方は

As expected, those who are looking at Twitter...

基本的に将棋のことをあまり知らないというか

Basically, I don't really know much about shogi.

ルール知らない方もたくさんいらっしゃるので

Many people don't know the rules.

そういう方にも楽しんでもらえるようにというところと

So that those people can have fun as well.

あとツイッターの特性上

Also, due to the nature of Twitter,

なんかあんまり真面目なことばっかりやってる

It feels like I'm always doing serious things.

あんまり反応が薄いというところもあるので

There are also some aspects where the reaction is rather weak.

まあちょっとそういうのも取り入れながらやってるというところですかね

Well, I guess it's about incorporating a little bit of that as well.

はい

Yes

あとちょっとまた将棋の話をお伺いしたいんですが

I would like to ask you a little more about shogi.

先週も少しだけ触れたんですが

I touched on it a little last week as well.

やはり藤井壮太さん

As expected, Sota Fujii.

先週すごく完成度が高いという印象をされたんですが

Last week, I got the impression that it was very well completed.

例えばハブさんが同じ年ぐらいだった時の指し方と

For example, the way of pointing when Hub-san was around the same age.

藤井壮太さんの指し方はやっぱり違うなという感じはあるんですか

Do you feel that Shota Fujii's way of playing is indeed different?

そうですね

That's right.

私例えば20歳の時だと

For example, when I was 20 years old.

なんかもう明らかにここが弱いとか

It's already obvious that this place is weak or something.

まだ改善の余地があるっていうところは

There is still room for improvement.

あるっていうところに違いがあるというのと

The difference is whether there is something or not.

あと藤井さんは結構なんて言うんでしょうかね

Also, what should I say about Fujii-san?

作戦的なところは結構決めてやるっていうところはあるので

There are definitely aspects where we decide and execute strategically.

なんかこう一つの自分のテーマを持った形を

I want to take shape with a theme that represents myself.

結構深掘りしていくタイプなのかなっていうところは

I wonder if you're the type to dig quite deep into things.

そこはちょっと自分とは違うところかなっていう風には思いますね

I think that's a bit different from who I am.

思ってます

I am thinking.

なるほど

I see.

でもたくさんの若い騎士の方は見てこられたと思うんですけど

But I think many young knights have watched it.

ああいうタイプの方が現れるのは突然変異的なのか

Is it that people of that type emerge as a result of a sudden mutation?

それとも何かこう練習の仕方が違うのか環境が違うのか

Or is it that the way of practicing is different, or is the environment different?

何かが違うからああいう方が現れる

Something is different, which is why that kind of person appears.

つまり説明ができるのか

In other words, can you explain?

それともポツッとその時代に現れるものなんですか

Or does it just appear suddenly in that era?

いくつかの側面があるんですけど

There are several aspects to it, but...

例えば

For example

藤井さん出身愛知県ですけど

Mr. Fujii is from Aichi Prefecture.

愛知県って結構その将棋を教える人の数が多い地域なんですね

Aichi Prefecture is actually a region where there are quite a few people who teach shogi.

その指導員普及指導員っていうインストラクターのような方がいて

There is an instructor called a dissemination instructor, who acts like a trainer.

人数も多いですし

There are a lot of people.

もう50年以上前からすごく力を入れてやってきたっていうことがあるので

"It's something we've been working very hard on for over 50 years."

やっぱりその半世紀の積み重ねの中で

After all, within the accumulation of that half century,

ああいう能力のある人が開花したっていう側面も

There is also the aspect that people with such abilities have blossomed.

それもあります

That is also a factor.

長い年月で

Over a long period of time.

その環境的なものでっていうのもあるし

There are also environmental factors involved.

あとは本人の資質とか才能みたいなもので

It's also about the individual's qualities and talents.

突然すごく強い人が出てくるっていうことは

It means that suddenly a very strong person appears.

将棋の世界では結構あるということではあります

It's quite common in the world of shogi.

ただ藤井さんの場合は今まで数多くの記録とかも乗り換えていますし

However, in Fujii-san's case, he has switched between numerous records so far.

将棋の内容的なものもですね

The content of shogi as well.

本当にびっくりするんですけど

I'm really surprised.

びっくりするぐらいミスが少ないんで

There are surprisingly few mistakes.

そこはちょっと今までの将棋の歴史ではなかった出来事かなっていうふうには思っています

I think that was an event that hasn't occurred in the history of shogi until now.

以前羽生さんご著書で

In the past, in Mr. Hanyu's book...

才能とは努力を続ける力

Talent is the power to keep making an effort.

続ける力って書かれてましたね

It was written that there is strength in continuing.

そうおっしゃってたんですけど

You mentioned that, didn't you?

今の藤井さんみたいなタイプの才能は

The type of talent that Mr. Fujii has right now is

やっぱり努力だけじゃないものがたくさんあるんですかね

I guess there are many things that aren't just about effort, after all.

そこは何て言うんでしょうかね

What do they call that place, I wonder?

実際に藤井さんがどういう才能を持っているのか

What kind of talent Fujii-san actually possesses.

どういう努力をしているかっていう

What kind of efforts are you making?

そのバックグラウンドのところまでは見えないんで

I can't see up to that background.

なんとも言えないとは思うんですけど

I can't really say anything about it, but...

ただその爪将棋とかを解くスピードがですね

It's just that the speed of solving those nail shogi puzzles is...

もう11歳とか12歳ぐらいの頃に

When I was around 11 or 12 years old.

大人の人と混じって競争を解く競争をしても

Even if I compete with adults and solve the competition.

もうぶっちぎりで早かったんで

It was already overwhelmingly fast.

そのあたりのやっぱりそのセンスとか能力みたいなものも

That kind of sense and ability around that area as well.

やっぱり間違いなくあるんじゃないかなっていうふうには思っています

I think there definitely is, without a doubt.

あと最近話題になっております

It has been a topic of discussion recently.

女流棋士の里見さんがプロ編入試験を受けられるということで

Professional female shogi player Satomi is going to take the entrance exam for professionals.

これも歴史400年の歴史で言うとかなり

This also has quite a history of 400 years.

そうなんですよ

That's right.

棋士の世界基本的に男性でも女性でもどちらでもなれるんですけども

In the world of shogi, anyone can become a player, whether male or female.

今まで女性でその棋士のライセンスを資格を取った人は

So far, there have been no women who have obtained the title of that professional shogi player.

一人もいないんで

There isn’t a single person.

里見さんが今回取ればですね

If Mr. Satomi takes it this time, then...

その400年の歴史の中で初めてっていう

It's the first time in that 400-year history.

本当に大事な人たちがいるんですよ

There are people who are really important to me.

大異業です

It's a great achievement.

女流棋士の方今75人いらっしゃるってことですが

There are currently 75 female shogi players, it seems.

それだけいらっしゃってもやっぱりチャレンジするっていう方が少ないのか

Even with that many people, it seems that there are still few who are willing to take on the challenge.

そもそもやっぱり制度として難しいのか

Is it really difficult as a system in the first place?

両方ありまして

Both are available.

なんて言うんでしょうかね

What should I say?

掛け持ちでやるというケースもできる時もありますし

There are times when it is also possible to do it in a dual role.

ただ4段からプロなんですけど

I'm just a 4-dan professional.

その3段っていう一歩手前まで行ったことがある人は

Someone who has been just one step away from those three levels.

今編入試験を受けている里見さんっていう人と

There is a person named Satomi who is currently taking the transfer exam.

あともう一人西山さんっていうタイトルホール

There's also a person named Nishiyama, who is the title holder.

あの人がいるんですけど

That person is here, you know.

その2人はもうかなり限りなく

Those two are already quite limitless.

プロに近いレベルのところまで来てるっていうところです

I'm reaching a level that is close to that of a professional.

大輔さん楽しみですよね

I'm looking forward to it, Daisuke!

そうですね

That's right.

でもなんでいろんな分野で女性の対等目覚ましいんですけど

But why are women making remarkable equal progress in various fields?

将棋がすごく遅れていたって理由があるんですか

Is there a reason why shogi was greatly delayed?

私はこれを持っているのはですね

I have this, you see.

実は小学生の時点では最近は

Actually, at the elementary school level, recently...

男の子も女の子も大会出たら

If boys and girls participate in the tournament...

同じぐらいの強さになるんですよ

It becomes about the same strength.

強い女の子もたくさんいるんですけど

There are many strong girls, though.

だからその能力の問題ではないと思っています

So I don't think it's a problem of ability.

ただあとはあれですよね

Well, it's just that.

そういうリスクある世界を

A world with such risks.

本人だったり親御さんが

It was either the person themselves or their parents.

例えば小学生とか中学生の子で

For example, kids who are in elementary or middle school.

選ぶかどうか選ばされるかどうかっていうところも

Whether to choose or to be made to choose is also a part of it.

実は結構大きいんじゃないかなっていう風に思っていて

I actually think it's quite big.

結構そのあたりがですね

That's pretty much around that area, isn't it?

解消されると

When resolved

全然別に女性力士になる人が増えても

It's perfectly fine if the number of female wrestlers increases.

なんか話題にもなくなるっていう日が来ても

Even if the day comes when it becomes a topic of no interest...

何の不思議もないっていう風に思っています

I think there’s nothing strange about it.

やっぱり鶏と卵で先駆者がいてロールモデルがいて

After all, there are pioneers and role models with the chicken and the egg.

ああいう感じなんだっていうのが増えてくると

When that kind of feeling increases,

またそういう道を選ぶ方も増えるんですかね

I wonder if more people will choose that kind of path as well.

それもそうですね

That's true.

すごく影響大きいと思っています

I think it has a very large impact.

なのでさとみさんの挑戦は

So Satomi's challenge is

そういう意味でもものすごく

In that sense, it is really amazing.

大きな意義があることかなっていう風にも感じています

I feel that it has significant meaning.

あと最近の将棋人気の広がりを担っている

It is also playing a role in the recent spread of popularity of shogi.

一つがアベマ将棋チャンネルがあるということで

One is that there is the Abema Shogi Channel.

私もびっくりしたんですけど

I was surprised too.

将棋のファンの数っていうのが

The number of shogi fans is

ゆりさん実はすっごい多いんですよね

Actually, there are a lot of lilies, you know.

今一応交渉何人とかってあるんですか

Are there currently any negotiations regarding the number of people?

将棋ファン将棋する方って

Shogi fans are people who play shogi.

ルールを知ってる人は

Those who know the rules.

700万人ぐらいとか言ってる

They're saying it's around 7 million people.

っていう風に言われてるんですけど

I've been told it's like that.

ただ将棋を指す人と中継を見たり

Just playing shogi and watching the live broadcast.

イベントに来る人たちは

The people who come to the event

基本的に全くそうの違う人たちなんで

Basically, they're completely different kinds of people.

同じ将棋ファンって言っても

Even if we say we're both shogi fans...

交わらないっていうか

It's not that we don't intersect.

全然違う人たちなんで

They're completely different people.

最近増えてるのはそちらの

Recently, what's increasing over there is...

イベントに来るとか

Like coming to the event.

そういういろんな中継を見てる人たちが

People watching various broadcasts like that

すごく増えてるという印象があります

I have the impression that it's really increasing.

だからアーティストの

So the artist's

コンサートに行くとか

Like going to a concert.

イベントに行くのかとかと

Are you going to the event?

同じような感覚で

With a similar feeling.

将棋のイベントに来ている

I am attending a shogi event.

っていうようなことは結構ありますね

Such things happen quite often.

2週にわたって

Over the course of two weeks

いろんなお話をお伺いしてきたんですが

I've been listening to various stories.

カブさん個人として

As for Mr. Kabu personally

今後の展望みたいなものをお伺いしたいんですか

I would like to ask about your future prospects.

そうですね

That's right.

まあ棋士として

Well, as a shogi player.

やっぱりなんかこう

After all, it feels like something...

時間が有限の中で

Within the limits of time.

何ができるのかっていうようなことを

What can be done?

結構考えなくてはいけないな

I really have to think about it.

っていうようなことを

Things like that.

思っているということと

The fact that you are thinking

あとこれは

And this is...

実験みたいなものでもあると思うんですけど

I think it's somewhat like an experiment.

AIみたいなものが出てきたときにですね

When something like AI emerges, you see...

自分の年齢になってからでも

Even after reaching my own age.

本当にその技術を

Really that technology.

向上できるのかどうか

Whether it can be improved or not.

上達できるのかどうかっていうのは

Whether or not one can improve is...

結構大きなテーマというか

It's quite a big theme, or rather.

課題で

In the assignment.

頑張ってみようかなっていう風に

I think I'll give it a try.

思っているというところと

The part where I am thinking is...

あとは将棋の世界をですね

As for the world of shogi, you see...

なんかもっと幅広く

Something broader, I guess.

多くの人に知ってもらいたいなっていう風にも

I want many people to know about it.

思っています

I am thinking.

ありがとうございます

Thank you.

ということでミートアップ

So, a meetup.

お迎えしたゲストは

The guests we welcomed are

将棋棋士の羽生義晴さんでした

It was the shogi player Yoshiharu Habu.

2週間ありがとうございました

Thank you for the past two weeks.

どうもありがとうございました

Thank you very much.

ありがとうございました

Thank you very much.

TBSラジオミートアップエンディングのお時間です

It's time for the TBS Radio Meetup ending.

今回の羽生義晴さんのお話は

This time, Mr. Yoshiharu Hanyu's story is

放送後1週間は

One week after broadcasting.

ラジコのタイムフリーでお聞きいただけます

You can listen to it on Radiko's time-free feature.

またゲストトークは

The guest talk will also be.

お待ちしております

I will be waiting for you.

トークのアーカイブは

The talk archive is

ラジオクラウドやポッドキャストで

On Radio Cloud and podcasts.

お楽しみください

Please enjoy.

ぜひ過去の放送も

Please also check out past broadcasts.

遡って聞いてみてください

Please try asking about it again.

さあということで

Well then, let's get started.

2021年1月にスタートした

Started in January 2021.

このミートアップも

This meetup too

今回で最後となります

This will be the last time.

濃い1年9ヶ月でしたね

It was a rich 1 year and 9 months, wasn't it?

大輔さん

Mr. Daisuke

そうですね

That's right.

振り返ると

When I look back

いろんな方のいろんなお話を

Various people's various stories.

お伺いしたなと思うんですが

I think I've heard that before.

最初DNAナンバー智子さんから始まって

It all started with DNA Number Tomoko.

最後羽生義晴さんということで

Lastly, speaking of Yoshiharu Hanyu.

豪華ゲストがオンパレードでした

There was a parade of luxurious guests.

しまりましたね

It's tightened up, hasn't it?

全部で43人の

A total of 43 people.

3組お越しいただいたということで

Since three groups have come,

あと私やっぱりこのね

Also, I really think this...

テーマソングが大好きでした

I loved the theme song.

ピアニストで作曲家の

pianist and composer

松永隆さんにお願いして

I asked Takashi Matsunaga.

本当に素敵なテーマソング

A really wonderful theme song.

作ってもらってて

I am having it made.

よかったなと思ってます

I'm glad to hear that.

頭から離れないですよね

It won't leave my mind, will it?

本当ですよ

It's true.

流れるようなね

Like it's flowing.

爽やかな曲ですが

It's a refreshing song, isn't it?

いやでも大輔さんの

Well, Daisuke-san's...

お友達とか

Like friends and such

私の知り合いの方とかも

People I know as well.

たくさん来ていただきましたけど

Thank you for coming a lot.

大輔さんすごい仲いい経営者の方でも

Mr. Daisuke is very close with other business owners.

知らない一面が出てきたりとか

It's like discovering a side you didn't know about.

いろんな思いがありましたよね

There were many different feelings, weren’t there?

ただ一つ共通点やっぱりあって

But there is one common point after all.

この番組のタイトル

The title of this program.

ミートアップの通りで

On Meetup Street

本当に様々な家庭環境で

In various family environments.

いろんな学生時代

Various student days.

いろんな社会人時代

Various working-life experiences

過ごした方々

Those who spent time.

そこには共通点なさそうなんですけど

It doesn't seem like there are any commonalities there.

やっぱり人生を変える

It will change your life after all.

出会いがあったんだな

It seems like there was a meeting.

それ偶然じゃなくて

That's not a coincidence.

自ら動いてる中で

While moving on my own

会えた方々からの出会い

Encounters with those I've met.

なってるんだな

It has become that way, huh?

というふうに思ったので

I thought that way.

積極的に自分から興味を持って

Take the initiative to show interest.

動くことが大切なのかなと思ってます

I think it's important to move.

本当に今でも聞き直しても

I really still listen to it again now.

ヒントがたくさんあるぐらい

There are plenty of hints.

すごくためになるお話がたくさんあるので

There are many stories that are very informative.

ぜひ皆さんミートアップのポッドキャストで

Please definitely check out everyone's meetup podcast.

聞き直してほしいなというふうに思います

I would like you to listen again.

本当に恋2年間をありがとうございました

Thank you for the truly wonderful two years of love.

ありがとうございました

Thank you very much.

ということで本当大輔さん

So, really, Daisuke-san.

いつかまたねリスナーの皆様に

Someday, once again to all the listeners.

お会いできる日を期待して

Looking forward to the day we can meet.

我々今回最終回となります

This will be our final episode.

それではまたいつかお会いしましょう

Well then, let's meet again sometime.

お相手は岩瀬大輔と

The opponent is DaisukeIwase.

笹川由里でした

I was Yuri Sasagawa.

ありがとうございました

Thank you very much.