#04 ポッドキャストにゲスト出演して思ったこと

2828club

ニワニワクラブ

テキサイの野生です草まけらの田村です

This is the wilds of Tekisai. I am Tamura from Kusamakera.

お久しぶりです 1年ぶりですね

It's been a while; it's been a year, hasn't it?

ちょっとあんまりやるタイミングがなくて

I haven't really had the chance to do it much.

ズルズルズルズルやらなくなっちゃったんだけど

I stopped doing it little by little.

春の芽吹きとともにニュアニュアクライムを再開しようと

As the sprouts of spring emerge, I will try to resume the NyuNyuA climb.

いい季節ですね

It's a nice season, isn't it?

もうちょっとうまいこと言うのかと思った

I thought you would say something a little more clever.

いい季節ですよ今日はちょっと意外と晴れない

It's a nice season, but today it's surprisingly not sunny.

昨日まで雨で

It was raining until yesterday.

ちょうどいいね

That's just right.

めっちゃ暑いな

It's really hot, isn't it?

ちょっと湿気がね

It's a bit humid, isn't it?

今なんかちょっとパラパラしてますね

It’s a bit drizzling right now, isn't it?

本当だね

That's true.

ニュアニュアクライム始めたら雨が降ってきた

When I started the new crime, it began to rain.

大丈夫ですよ大丈夫だよ

It's okay, it's alright.

はい

Yes

昨日あの

Yesterday, that...

サラドクっていうポッドキャストをやってる友達がいて

I have a friend who does a podcast called Saradoku.

そこにちょっとゲスト出演してきて

I just made a guest appearance there.

知ってますか?

Do you know?

サラドク?

Saradoku?

サラリーマンドクター

Salaryman doctor

惜しいんだよ

It's a pity.

サラリーマン合ってるけど

Being a salaryman suits me, but...

サラリーマンなんとか

Salaryman something.

独立の独立

Independence of independence.

日本語入ってると思わなかった

I didn't think there would be Japanese in it.

日本語だよ

It's in Japanese.

それに出てきた

It came out.

そう出てきた

It came out like that.

中津の街の中にリバーベットコーヒーというコーヒー屋さんがあって

There is a coffee shop called Riverbed Coffee in the city of Nakatsu.

そこをやってること

What they are doing there.

あとエナでシェアオフィスやってる

Also, I'm doing a shared office with Ena.

なんだっけな

What was it again?

シェアオフィスの名前忘れてたぞ

I forgot the name of the shared office.

シェアーズだ

It's Shares.

フェアーズ?

Fairs?

フェアーズじゃない

Not fairies.

マッチじゃない

It's not a match.

カットで

With a cut.

使います

I will use it.

シェアーズね

It's shares, right?

2人が

Two people

結構もう2年くらいやってるんじゃないかな

I think I've been doing it for about 2 years now.

長いんだね

It's long, isn't it?

結構定期的にやってて

I do it quite regularly.

夜8時から

From 8 PM.

収録だけで言ったらもう多分

If we're just talking about the recording, then probably...

2時間以上

More than 2 hours

3回に分けてやった

I did it in three parts.

喋りだすと止まらなくて

Once I start talking, I can't stop.

3回に分けてやった?

Did you do it in three parts?

1回の放送が2時間とかじゃなくて

It's not like a single broadcast is two hours long.

例えば40分とか30分とか

For example, 40 minutes or 30 minutes.

分の3回ってことですね

So that means three times a minute.

結構喋って

Talk quite a bit.

でも楽しかった

But it was fun.

独立

Independence

捨てる

To throw away.

最近は

Recently...

いやそれこそ

No, that's precisely it.

なんか

Somehow

ますますインテリになってきちゃう

I'm becoming more and more of an intellectual.

いや自分で言う

No, I'll say it myself.

ますますインテリじゃねえよ

You're not becoming more of an intellectual, you know.

いや今のは冗談だけど

Well, that was just a joke.

でもあれよ

But you know...

このニオニアクラブ聞いてる人の話聞くと

When I listen to the stories of people in this Nionia club...

田村君は頭いい人なんだろうなって思う

I think Tamura is a smart person.

そうですね

That's right.

やっぱこう自分で言うのと

As expected, saying it myself...

人に言われるのとやっぱ訳が違いますね

It's different when someone tells you.

じゃあなんかその

Well, um...

最近造園だけじゃなくて

Recently, it's not just landscaping anymore.

いろんなタイプの林業系の

Various types of forestry-related.

仕事も関わるし

It also involves work.

自分で持ってるお客さんとかとか

Customers that I have personally.

変わった

Changed.

要するに庭園を作る仕事ってほとんどやらないんですけど

In short, I hardly ever do work to create gardens.

関小園以外で

Other than Seki Park.

なんかこう

Something like this...

なんだろう

I wonder what it is.

なんかそれでこう

Somehow, with that...

庭園の在り方っていうのにすごい疑問じゃなきゃ

I have a lot of questions about the way gardens are.

ないけど

But I don't have it.

どういう風な在り方っていうのがいいのかなっていうのを考えるようになった気がする

I feel like I've started to think about what kind of way of being might be good.

ちょっと引いてみて

Take a step back.

かなり引いてみてますね今は

You're pulling away quite a bit now.

なんかその今樹木医の勉強してるって話だじゃないですか

I've heard you're studying to become a tree doctor, right?

樹木医の勉強の中で

In the study of tree medicine

いろんなこの教本っていうか

Various things, this textbook or rather.

その教科書みたいなの中に項目があるんですよ

There are items in that textbook-like thing.

で項目で

In the item

総論と格論っていって

They say general principles and specific arguments.

全体のことをなんとなく

Somehow about the overall thing.

説明した導入部分と

The introductory part that was explained.

あとそれぞれの

And each of them

カテゴリーにおいて

In the category

詳しく説明した

I explained in detail.

なんか章があるんだけど

There's a chapter, but...

その格論の中でも

Even within that framework of argument.

例えばこう植物学

For example, botany.

森林生態学とか

Forest ecology, for example.

あとは病害中とか農薬とか

As for pests and diseases, as well as pesticides.

そのカテゴリーがあって

There is that category.

なんかそれをこうバーって見てると

When I look at it like this...

自分がどこに今

Where am I now?

興味を置いてるのかってのが

I wonder if you're interested.

結構明確に分かってきて

It's becoming quite clear.

どこの

Where?

俺は総論が好きなんですよ

I like general discussions.

樹木っていうもの自然っていうものが

The thing called trees, the thing called nature.

この社会において地球において

In this society, on Earth.

どのような位置づけにあって

What kind of positioning does it have?

どうやってそれを育んできたか

How have you nurtured that?

育んでいくか

"Will nurture."

あるいはそれを人にどうやって伝えていくか

Alternatively, how to convey that to others.

そういう部分が一番なんか

That's the part that stands out the most.

勉強してるのが楽しいなと

I'm having fun studying.

大まかな流れ

Rough outline.

そうそうそう大きい流れ

That's right, that's right, it's a big trend.

だから別に

So it doesn't really matter.

僕の断面見て顕微鏡で見て

"Look at my cross-section under a microscope."

あっ何だっけ

Ah, what was it again?

病害中が入ってて

It has a plant disease in it.

動感が詰まってるか

Is it packed with dynamism?

うんたらかんたらみたいな

Like "untara kantara" or something.

そういうのってあんまし興味ねえなって

I'm not really that interested in that kind of thing.

思うようになってきた

I'm starting to feel like things are going the way I want.

部分がどんどんどんどん興味になってきたのか

Parts of it have gradually become more interesting.

マクロ的な

Macroeconomic

マクロ視点になってきたのかなぁ

I wonder if I've started to gain a macro perspective.

それは

That is

勉強して気づいたのかと思うんですけど

I think you realized it while studying.

勉強して気づいたっていうか

It's more like I realized while studying.

結局庭の世界よりも

In the end, more than the world of the garden

林業の世界の方が視点が広いじゃないですか

The world of forestry has a broader perspective, doesn't it?

扱うものもでかいし

The things we handle are also big.

なってきた時に

When it started to become

そのミクロの世界

That micro world.

その庭っていう超最小

That garden, which is ultra-small.

自然の最小単位っても言っていいぐらい

You could say it's the smallest unit of nature.

なミクロな自然の世界と

The microscopic world of nature and

中間的な人工林

Intermediate artificial forest

自然の単位と

Natural unit and

あるいはもっとも

Or perhaps the most.

ランドスケープっていうか

It's more like a landscape.

山々に生えてる木とか

Trees growing on the mountains.

あるいはもっともっと広い

Or much, much wider.

日本の国土としての森とか

Forests as part of Japan's land.

そういう

Like that

ちょっとわかんない感じになっちゃった

I kind of don't understand it.

壮大な話をしてる

I'm telling a grand story.

いやなんかいろいろ

Well, various things...

今自分で言って思ったけど

I just said it myself, but I thought...

庭って結構自然の最小単位って面白いなって

I find it interesting that a garden is quite the smallest unit of nature.

面白いってこと?

Are you saying it's interesting?

なんか面白くないですか?

Isn't it kind of interesting?

人が関わる自然の最小単位に近い部分を作ってるって

"It's creating parts that are close to the smallest unit of nature that involves humans."

結構面白くないですか?

Isn't it pretty interesting?

人が?

Is someone there?

人がというかその仕事

It's not so much about the person, but rather about the job.

仕事がか

Work is...

そう

Yes.

まぁでも実際そうだもんね

Well, that's actually true.

もちろん行ったら

Of course, if I go.

テラリウムとか盆栽とかそういうのが

Things like terrariums and bonsai.

もっと

もちろん

Of course.

もうちょっと

A little more.

細かいかもしれないけど

It might be a little細かいかもしれないけど.

でもそれはやっぱり

But that is still...

人が包み込んでる自然だって

It's nature that people are encompassing.

自然に包み込まれてる人じゃない

You're not someone who is surrounded by nature.

そうなるとそのギリギリのラインって

Then, that borderline is...

たぶん庭ぐらいが

Maybe just the garden.

最小単位になりそうな気がするって

I have a feeling it might become the smallest unit.

思ったわけです

I thought so.

なるほど

I see.

考えてますね

You're thinking, aren't you?

これなんか良くないですか?

Isn't this nice?

なんかキャッチコピーになってますよね?

It somehow feels like a catchphrase, doesn't it?

キャッチコピーに使えそうじゃないですか?

Doesn't it seem like it could be used as a catchphrase?

人をなんだっけ?

What do you call a person again?

いやなんか自然の最小単位を作る仕事みたいな

No, it feels like a job creating the smallest unit of nature.

そういう感じのなんか

It feels like something like that.

結構響きそうな気がする

I feel like it will resonate quite a bit.

自然の最小単位を作る仕事

A job that creates the smallest unit of nature.

そうそうそう

That's right, that's right, that's right.

たぶんそのまま使っちゃダメって思うけど

I think it's probably not okay to use it just as it is.

そんな感じ

That kind of feeling.

そうそんな感じのものってなんか結構いいな

Yeah, something like that is pretty good.

確かに聞いたことないね

I have definitely never heard of that.

なんかそれをたぶん

I think that's probably it.

これどういうこと?を聞かれたときに

What does this mean? When asked.

なんかそれを説明すると

If I try to explain that,

自然っていうものの成り立ちというか

It's about the formation of what we call nature.

もっとマクロ的な視点も話さなきゃいけないし

We also need to talk from a more macro perspective.

そうなるとこう

If that happens, then this.

なんていいっすか

How nice is that?

断片的な庭っていう業界じゃなくて

It's not the kind of industry that deals with fragmented gardens.

もっと複雑に絡み合ってる

It's entangled in a more complicated way.

昨今流行りな

Recently popular

なんか持続可能な社会ってなんだろう

I wonder what a sustainable society really is.

みたいな

Like.

そういう部分を踏み込んでいけるから

Because we can delve into those aspects.

なんかやっぱり

Somehow, after all.

結構良い考えを思いすぎてしまったかもしれません

I might have thought of a pretty good idea.

すごい良い視点だと思う

I think it's a really good perspective.

よくっていうか、庭って何なんでしょう?みたいな

What is a garden, I wonder?

庭とは?みたいな

What is a garden?

考えられたりすることってあると思うけど

I think there are things that can be thought about.

でも結構その説明は腑に落ちた

But that explanation really resonated with me.

すげー腑に落ちた

That totally makes sense.

関正園が例えば外交をやりたがってるかどうかはちょっとわかんないけど

I’m not sure if Seki Masayen is particularly interested in doing diplomacy.

やりたくないとしたら

If you don't want to do it.

僕たち自然の最小単位にしか考えてないで

We only think of ourselves as the smallest unit of nature.

外交って別に自然の最小単位でもなんでもないからみたいな

"Diplomacy isn't really the smallest unit of nature or anything like that."

だからそのすみ分けが

So that division of roles...

庭ってどこからどこまでが庭なの?

Where does the garden start and where does it end?

って考えた時に

When I thought about that

外交って庭じゃなくね?みたいな

Isn't diplomacy not like a garden?

庭ってそういう自然の最小単位を考えたものでしょ?

A garden is something that considers the smallest unit of nature, right?

っていう態度で言ったら

If you say it with that attitude,

なんか腑に落ちた気がした

I felt like I understood something.

知らないっすよ

I don't know.

外交屋さんから何かちょっとクレームが来そうな気がするけど

I have a feeling that we might receive a slight complaint from the diplomat.

でも外交屋さんも庭だと思って作ってるじゃん

But isn't the diplomat also creating it thinking it's a garden?

庭周り、カーポート庭周りとかいるじゃん

Around the garden, like the carport area, you need it, right?

その辺の言葉の使い方はどうなんだろうね?

I wonder how the usage of words around here is?

庭の周りっすからね

It's around the garden, you know.

まあ庭の周り

Well, around the garden.

庭じゃない

It's not a garden.

だからその

So that...

庭って何なの?って結構

What is a garden, really?

大事な話な気がしますよ

I feel like this is an important conversation.

そんな気する

I have that feeling.

人によって捉え方違ったりとか

It can be perceived differently by different people.

外交屋さん

Diplomat

経費を使って作って

Make it using the budget.

で、場ができて

So, the situation was created.

で、そこが庭って捉えても別にいいと思うし

Well, I think it's perfectly fine to interpret that as a garden.

自然の最小単位としての庭も

The garden as the smallest unit of nature.

立派な庭だし

It's a splendid garden.

どっちも庭とは言えると思うけど

I think both can be called gardens.

そうね

That's right.

なんか

Something.

例えば全く木も石も

For example, neither trees nor stones at all.

石は別か

Is it different for stones?

木も下草も

Both trees and underbrush

何もないところを指す言葉が

A word that points to a place with nothing in it.

なんか無い気がする

I feel like there's nothing.

土だけ?

Just soil?

例えばセメントだけとか

For example, just cement or something like that.

あ、セメントだけね

Oh, just the cement.

そう

Yes.

土だけも

Even just the soil.

砂利敷だけとか

Just gravel.

あ、でも確かに

Ah, but that's true.

でも砂利って石

But gravel is stone.

うん

Yeah.

で

まあ採石

Well, quarrying.

まあ採石も石だけど

Well, quarrying is also about stones.

あのコンクリートだけの場所が庭って言われたら

If that place made of just concrete is called a garden, then...

ね、違う

No, that's not it.

なるじゃん

It will happen, you know.

じゃあそれ何なの?

So what is that?

ってなった時に

When that happens

それを形容する言葉っていうのは無いよね?

There are no words to describe that, right?

その場っていうのは無いような気がするな

I feel like that place doesn't really exist.

あんのかな?

Is that really the case?

確かに

Certainly.

それが

That is it.

それは確かにそう

That's certainly true.

そこに例えば木が

For example, there is a tree there.

どっかに植わってるとか

Maybe it's planted somewhere.

してたら

While I was doing it...

まだ庭という

It's still called a garden.

まあそれはその

Well, that's that.

なんていうんですか

What do you call it?

まあそのさっきの

Well, that just now...

自分の言った

What I said.

考えたら庭じゃないかもしれないけど

It might not be a garden if you think about it.

講義の意味で含めると

If included in the meaning of a lecture,

庭って言えそうですもんね

It seems like you could say "garden."

うん

Yeah.

深い話

A deep conversation.

深いっすよ

It's deep.

庭について考えるって

Thinking about the garden.

結局その自然との関わり方について考えるにつながっていくし

Ultimately, it leads to thinking about how to connect with nature.

それを考えていかないと

We need to think about that.

なんかもうダメな世の中になってくんじゃないのかな

Isn't the world just going to get worse?

ダメな世の中っていうのは

A world that is not good.

世の中がダメになってくんじゃなくて

It's not that the world is going to hell.

考えていくことが必要な時代

A time when it is necessary to think things through.

必要っていうのは何?

What does it mean to need?

地球にとって

For the Earth

うん

Yeah.

じゃあ俺らはそのきっかけを作れる

Then we can create that opportunity.

そう

Yes.

仕事ではある

It is work.

そう

That's right.

自分たちもそれに対して

We also feel that way about it.

深い理解を

Deep understanding.

理解とか

Understanding and such.

うん

Yeah.

考えを持って

Having thoughts

庭を作ってると

When I am making a garden

お客さんに

To the customer.

なんかそういう部分で響いて

It resonates in some way.

うん

Yeah.

より

ね

Hey.

庭の輪が広がるというか

It's like the circle in the garden is expanding.

だってやっぱり

Well, after all...

もう形は

It's already a shape.

どんな形であれば

In any form.

やっぱり

As expected.

こう

Like this.

木があって

There are trees.

草があって

There is grass.

石があって

There is a stone.

庭が

The garden.

いろんなところに広がっていくと

When it spreads to various places.

いいと思ってるじゃないですか

You think it's good, don't you?

そういう世界がいいなと思ってるわけですね

I think it would be nice to have a world like that.

そういう

That's the way it is.

そのための

For that purpose.

啓蒙とかが

Enlightenment and such.

自然と

Naturally

形をつけることで

By giving it shape

できて

I can do it.

いくと

Iku to.

いいですね

That's good.

たしかに

Certainly.

そういうのには

For that kind of thing.

そういうことができる

I can do that.

仕事だね

It's work.

はい

Yes

あの

Um...

その

That

仕事の

Work's

やっぱり

As I thought.

みんな

Everyone

昨日そのラジオで庭を作る時に気をつけてることみたいな

Yesterday on the radio, they talked about things to be careful of when creating a garden.

その場所で使える木とかその場所の文脈とかに沿ったりとか

Using wood that is available in that area or fitting within the context of that place.

っていうのを考えるみたいなことを大まかに言った

I vaguely mentioned something like thinking about that.

やっぱりその土地で使える木って限られてきたり

After all, the types of wood that can be used in that area are limited.

暑い寒い

Hot and cold.

思いあって

Thinking of each other

逆にその

On the contrary, that...

逆にじゃないけど

It's not the opposite, but...

出かけた先で

At the place I went out to.

植わってたりそういう木を見て

Seeing trees like that being planted.

ここはこういう木が育つんだとか

This is where trees like this grow.

という視点で見るとか

Looking from that perspective, for example.

いう風に話した時に

When I talked like that.

それを話したら

When I talked about it

面白がってて

Having fun with it.

全然やっぱり

Not at all, after all.

知らないから見ないじゃん

I won't look at it because I don't know.

自分もサラリーマンの時に

When I was a salaryman myself

深谷幸喜が作った庭の横を通ってたけど全く見ぬ気もしなかった

I was walking past the garden that Kouki Fukaya created, but I didn't notice it at all.

けど実はあれは代表作だったみたいな

But actually, that seems to have been their representative work.

のと一緒で

Like with...

一つ気づくと

When you notice one thing

そこに目がいって面白かったり

It was interesting to focus on that.

自然と

With nature

石とか木とか自然なものに触れる

Touching natural things like stones and trees.

という意識ができるんだなと思って

I thought it was possible to have such consciousness.

昨日話しただけでも

Just talking about it yesterday.

全然庭の見方が変わる

The way I see the garden completely changes.

街の見方が変わったなみたいな感想を持ってくれて

I'm glad to hear that you have a changed perspective of the town.

それはやっぱり

That is surely...

少しでも話すだけでも

Even just talking a little.

そういう感想を持ってくれたのが嬉しかったし

I was happy that you had such feelings.

それはそういう反応もらえたら

If I could get that kind of reaction.

やっぱりちょっとでも伝えていかなきゃいけないなって気持ちにはなりますよね

I feel that we definitely need to convey it, even just a little.

そう

Yes.

なんか

Somehow

結構そうやって

That's quite a way to do it.

庭師じゃないとか

It's not a gardener, huh?

知らない人と話すの面白いなと

It's interesting to talk to strangers.

そうか

I see.

質問してくれて答えて

Please ask me a question and I'll answer.

すごい気づきを持ってくれてる

You have an amazing awareness.

知ってる者同士じゃないですかね

Aren't we acquaintances?

知ってるそのことをブラッシュアップしていくけど

I will brush up on what you know.

でも知らない状態から質問してくれて

But you asked me a question without knowing.

話して

Talk to me.

それで気づきを持ってくれて

I'm glad you became aware of it.

視点を変えてくれるって

It changes your perspective.

知らない人じゃないとできない

It can only be done by someone I don't know.

そういう側がもっとあってもいいのかなと思って

I think it would be nice if there were more sides like that.

あるべきだと思うんですよ

I think it should be that way.

ていうか

I mean...

そうだなぁ

I see.

なんか

Somehow

そうですね

That's right.

そういう話をしないとやっぱり

If we don't talk about things like that, after all...

興味持たないですね

I'm not really interested.

そうなんかに

Is that so?

本当に自分が思ってる以上に

More than I really think.

知らないしそういう視点も

I don't know, and I don't have that perspective either.

自分もそうだったなと思うし

I think I was the same way.

自分はいつも当たり前に使ったり接してるから

I always use and interact with it as if it's natural.

その辺って一回そうやって

Could you do that again around here?

さらな状態のことを

The state of being bare.

状況に置かれないとわかんないから

Because you can't understand unless you're in the situation.

そうですね

That's right.

庭が一番

The garden is the best.

さっき自然の最小単位の話じゃないですけど

I wasn't talking about the smallest unit of nature earlier, but...

僕らは

We are

なんか

Somehow

なんていうんですか

What do you call it?

どこまでいっても結局

No matter how far you go, in the end...

環境の中で生きていくしかないですからね

We have no choice but to live within our environment.

うん

Yeah.

その環境のなんか

Something about that environment.

基盤になってるのは

What underlies it is

それこそ大きい意味で地球だし

That is, in a larger sense, the Earth.

うん

Yeah.

その部分に対して

Regarding that part.

やっぱり

After all.

理解

Understanding

理解というか

Rather than understanding...

なんだろう

I wonder what it is.

知ってて当然のことを知らなくても生きられる世の中だから

It's a world where you can live even without knowing things that you should naturally know.

そうだね

That's right.

そう

That's right.

そうなんですか

Is that so?

うん

Yeah.

逆境です

It's adversity.

逆境

Adversity

自然に対して逆境

Adversity against nature.

うん

Yeah.

こんなにいっぱいあるのに

Even though there are so many.

今いる場所はね

Where I am right now is...

ものすごい

Incredible.

いい場所だよね

It's a nice place, isn't it?

一番自然を身に

"Embrace nature the most."

皆さんが

Everyone

皆さんがね

Everyone, you know...

一番自然を身近に感じる場所って多分花粉症ぐらいですよね

The place where you probably feel closest to nature is probably during hay fever season, right?

絶対

Absolutely

老若男女

People of all ages and genders.

花粉症と災害だね

It's pollen allergy and disasters, isn't it?

都会にいても花粉感じるし

Even in the city, I can feel the pollen.

都会に行ったことないから知らないけど

I don't know because I've never been to the city.

災害もそうね

Disasters are like that too.

うん

Yeah.

そういうなんか非常事態がないよね

There aren't any emergencies like that, right?

うん

Yeah.

触れない

Do not touch.

自然が近くない人たちは

People who are not close to nature.

そのためにやっぱり庭を作りたいと思ったりするから作るんだと思うし

That's why I think I want to create a garden, and that's why I end up doing it.

やっぱりあれだな

I knew it.

都会の人の庭には自然の脅威とも言える木を植えた方がいいですね

It's better to plant trees in urban people's gardens that can be considered a natural threat.

メタセコリアとか

Like Metasequoia

杉

Cedar

そんなとこっすかね

I guess that's about it.

そうっすね

I see.

深い話しました

We had a deep conversation.

いいっすか

Is it okay?

はいもう全然

Yes, not at all.

じゃあありがとうございました

Well then, thank you very much.

ありがとうございました

Thank you very much.

自然大切に

Cherish nature.

笑

Smile.

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