考えるための「出発点」

ん

Hmm.

うんっ 誰がかもか分かってなかったら自分がかもっていうのがながポーカー名言であるんだ

Hmm, if you don't know who the sucker is, then you're the sucker, which is a famous poker saying.

けど うん

But, yeah.

ワールドレベルをわかっている 顔は自分のレベル

Understanding the world level, the face matches my own level.

がどれだけかっていうのは本当にわかっているのかなぁっていうのはあって 何も問題意識にも同じことが言える気がしてて

I wonder if they really understand how much it is, and I feel the same can be said about having a sense of problem awareness.

だからなんか僕たちのポッドキャストでそういう問題意識ではがアレサイト小屋家 人ですよ

So in our podcast, we have this awareness of such issues, and it's about the people at Are Site Cabin.

ああいうのが何で問題意識低いと思うのかとかのレベルが低いと思うのかっていうのを 話していく

I will talk about why I think that kind of thing has a low level of awareness regarding problems.

ことでそのまあそれを聞いてる人の意識はなんか底上げされたらなんかめっちゃいいなぁ っても一緒に思って

I think it would be really nice if the awareness of the people listening to that was somehow raised.

あーとしてん うん

"Ah, I'm doing it. Yes."

成人発達理論とかインテグラルいろんとでちょっと面白いのがあってその まあいる問題意識で広さ

There is something quite interesting about adult development theory and integral theory, and it relates to the breadth of awareness of the issues present.

それは深さってものとその発達段階人の精神の構造がどう変化していくかってものは もほぼイコールと思っていいと思うけど自分より下っていうものは自分が経験

I think you can consider that the depth of something and the developmental stages of how the structure of a person's mind changes are almost equal, but what is beneath oneself is based on one's own experiences.

してる高 感覚とが感触だったらあの自分より問題意識が小さい人ってよくわかるとそのどれ

If it’s about sensation and feeling, I can clearly understand that people who have a smaller problem awareness than myself are often what stands out.

やっ 5年前の自分の考えがちょっと似てるなんて

Wow, my thoughts from five years ago are a little similar.

考え方っていうとちょっともっとメタ度の高い感じなんだけど

When it comes to thinking, it feels a bit more meta-level.

そういう自分より下っていうのは結構分かりやすくて

Being below someone like that is quite easy to understand.

自分より上はやっぱりそれを押し量ることができないから

Because those above me really cannot gauge that.

どっちかっていうとよく分かんないとか

It's more like I don't really understand.

よく分かんないからっていうので切り捨てるとかもあるんだけど

There are times when things are dismissed just because they aren't well understood.

でも分かってるから違うなっていうのは

But I understand, so I know it's different.

明らかに自分の分かってる範囲よりも

Clearly beyond my understanding.

ちょっとレベルの低いと判断できる

It can be judged to be a little low in level.

でなんかそういうここはこうだからダメみたいな

So it's like saying that this place is bad because of that.

指摘ができるっていうレベルだと

At a level where one can make points.

本当にその問題意識の広さ深さみたいなものが

The depth and breadth of that awareness of the issue is truly remarkable.

出てるんだろうなみたいなことは

I guess it's something that comes out, right?

実際そういうのが言われてるからあるんだろうなと思って

I think that's probably why such things are being said.

だから自分の思想的な営みが全部批判で行ってきてるから

So all of my intellectual endeavors have been carried out through criticism.

高校生の時からそういうなんかきっかけというか

Since high school, I've had some kind of trigger or opportunity like that.

思想に興味を持った時からこの人読んで

Read this person since I became interested in ideology.

ちょっとおかしいなと思ったらなぜおかしいのかを

If you think something is a little strange, then ask why it is strange.

突き詰めて説明するみたいな

It’s like giving an in-depth explanation.

ずっとそのなんか階段を通ってきて

I have been coming through that staircase all this time.

で今その高橋さんとかの方を読んでて

I'm currently reading about Mr. Takahashi and others.

あの人もずっとその基本的に全ての著作とか論文とかで

That person has continually discussed that in basically all their works and papers.

もう他者批判なんだよね全部

It's all just criticism of others now.

他者批判で自分の論理を言って

Expressing one's logic through criticism of others.

言説というか思想を位置づけていく仕方で

In the way of positioning discourse, or rather, thought.

大体そこにもうパターンがいくつかのもうパターンがあるというか

Generally, there are already several patterns there.

大体その型があってその型を結構もう一通り全ての

Basically, there is that form, and that form has already been pretty much all covered.

全てわかんないけどある程度その体験してきてる

I don't understand everything, but I have experienced it to some extent.

その他人自分の思想の本を通じてとか

"Through books of other people's thoughts or my own."

自分自身の読書経験を通じるとかもそうだけど

It's also through my own reading experiences.

それである程度その話したりとか書いてることとかを読むと

So, to some extent, when I talk about it or read what I've written...

なんか分かってくるなって

I feel like I'm starting to understand something.

そこがなぜ分かってくるのかとか

Why do I start to understand that?

どういうどういう風な見方を見ればそこがより分かるのかとか

How should we look at it in order to understand it better?

そういうなんかそのものの見方

That kind of perspective on things.

その立場の肯定とかあるじゃん

There’s also the affirmation of that position, right?

歴史認識の立場の高さ低さがあるから

Because there are varying levels of historical awareness.

そこをなんかみんなで交流していきたいなっていうのはめっちゃあるな

I really want everyone to interact and connect there.

だからなんかよく言うのはさそのその人

So what is often said is that that person...

こういう人もいればこういう人もいるじゃんって

"There are people like this, and there are also people like that."

俺そういうのおかしいと思うけど

I think that's strange.

やっぱりその客観的な事実としてその高さ低さはあって

After all, as an objective fact, there is that height and lowliness.

それがその心理性の度合いだし

That is the degree of that psychological aspect.

どれだけ現実をこううまく説明できるか

How well can one explain reality?

あるいはどれだけ現実を変革する力になりうるかっていうところだと思うから

I think it depends on how much power we can have to transform reality.

そこがなくしちゃってるのがその要するに

What you’re essentially missing is that part.

別にそこが興味がないから

It's not like I'm interested in that place.

Aっていう人とBっていう人は全然レベルが違うけどそういう人も

Person A and person B are on completely different levels, but even people like that...

なんかBを擁護する形で

In a way that defends B.

低い人を擁護する形でああいう考えも別にいいじゃんっていう風に言ってくる

It's not a problem to say that such thinking is okay as a way to support those who are less capable.

そのナーナー主義とかごまかし主義とかあるけど

There is such a thing as Na-na-ism or deceptive-ism, but...

アグリーチスティフィリエンスやね

It's agritech resilience, isn't it?

そうそうそういうのがめっちゃなんかその日本人の知識人が多いじゃん実際

Yeah, there are actually a lot of knowledgeable Japanese people like that.

日本人も多い

There are many Japanese people as well.

例えばさ高橋さんだってあのイエスっていう男でさ

For example, even Takahashi is that guy named Yes.

片っ端からもう荒井ささぐっていう東大教授の

"One after another, there's a professor from Tokyo University named Sasagu Arai."

東大の教授の書いてることを徹底的にもうボロクソにしてるんですよ

The professor at Tokyo University is thoroughly criticizing what he's written.

そう言ってくんだけど

That’s what they say, but...

だいたいその高橋さんにこう反抗アンチみたいな人は

Basically, there are people like those who oppose or are anti towards Mr. Takahashi.

笑いもああいう笑いでああいう立場があるよみたいなこと言ってくるんだけど

They say things like, "Laughter also comes from a place like that."

そうじゃないんだよっていうのはめっちゃ言ってるし枯れてしまう

It's not like that, and I'm saying it a lot, but it's withering away.

そう

Yes.

確かに

Certainly.

そんなことやったら

If you do something like that.

その良いものと悪いものっていうものが存在しないっていうこと

The existence of things that are good and bad does not exist.

考え方になるもんね極端に

It can lead to an extreme way of thinking.

そう

Yes.

そういう相対主義

Such relativism.

すべての相対主義に活気してしまうっていう考え方は

The idea that all relativism becomes vibrant is

これはどうも

Thank you very much.

なんか甘いなっていうか妥協だなっていうか

It feels a bit sweet, or maybe it's a compromise.

いや僕もそういう風に考えた時期はあったな

Yeah, I had a time when I thought that way too.

でもなんかあの

But somehow, you know...

なんでそう思ったかっていうと

The reason I thought that is...

最初に慶應くんに会った時に

When I first met Keio-kun,

あの

Um...

どこだっけな

Where was it again?

銀座の銀座シックスだっけな

Is it Ginza Six in Ginza?

のエレベーターとかで

in the elevator, etc.

エスカレーターでレイくんに

On the escalator with Rei-kun.

いや慶應くんみたいな人って日本に何人いるんだろうって言って

I wonder how many people like Keio-kun there are in Japan.

日本に何人いるんだろうねみたいな話をしてたじゃん

We were talking about how many people there are in Japan, right?

してたねしてたね

You were doing it, you were doing it.

いやマジで何人いるんだろうねみたいなこと言ってて

"Seriously, I wonder how many people there really are."

でなんか

Well, something...

その僕たちが最初に

That we first...

Podcast始めた時に

When I started the podcast

そういう高いレベルの問題意識

A problem awareness of such a high level.

持ってる人に出会えたらいいよね

It would be nice to meet someone who has it.

とかって言ってたけど

They said things like that, but...

ある意味その

In a sense, that...

いなかったとしても作り出すことって可能じゃん

Even if they weren't there, it's possible to create something.

うんうん

Yeah, yeah.

だからそういうプラットフォームを目指してもいいのかなって

So I think it's okay to aim for a platform like that.

問題意識をこう

Awareness of issues like this.

確かに

Certainly.

深めていく

To deepen.

進化させていくきっかけを与えるようなっていう

It is something that provides the opportunity for evolution.

うんうんうんうん

Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.

そうしたら結構いい

That would be quite good.

他者批判っていうのがいいのかなって思うし

I think it's okay to criticize others.

うんうんうんうんうん

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

根拠を持ってね

Have a reason for it.

何か

Something

そうだね

That's right.

そういう問題意識を深めたいとか

I want to deepen that awareness of the issue.

広げたいみたいに

Like I want to spread it.

潜在的に思ってる人が

People who are potentially thinking.

その人が自分が取り込んでる

That person is absorbing themselves.

情報なり何なりに対して

Regarding information or anything else.

批判を述べていくとか

Giving a critique or something like that.

それを反対に言うと

In other words,

自分の考えを作っていくみたいな感じにも近いと思うんだけど

I think it's somewhat similar to creating your own thoughts.

そういうことはすごい直結するんじゃないかなってことを

I think those kinds of things connect directly, don't you?

思うね

I think so.

今あの

Now, that...

今その違和感を発掘するっていう

I'm currently digging into that sense of discomfort.

授業をやろうとしてるから

Because I'm trying to have a class.

違和感を発掘するっていうのは

Discovering a sense of discomfort is...

問題意識の

Awareness of the issue

効果じゃん効果というか

It's an effect, rather than just an effect.

目じゃん

It's an eye, right?

でそれをこう持ってさ

So hold it like this.

いてくれればどっかで

If you stay, maybe somewhere.

絶対その問題意識が花開くと思うし

I definitely believe that awareness of that issue will flourish.

でちょうどそのために

Just for that reason.

今問題意識ゴリゴリの人間

A person who is currently very conscious of issues.

誰ですか代表曲って

Who is it that represents the song?

やっぱYESだと思うのね

I think it's definitely a yes.

YESが多分歴史上

YES has probably been a significant part of history.

これほど問題意識を持った人はいないと思うし

I don't think there is anyone who has such a strong awareness of the issues.

だからこそ30

That's why 30.

若干35くらいで殺されたんだよ多分

I was probably killed at around 35 years old.

はいはい

Yes, yes.

でそれをもう一回

So, do it one more time.

読み返したのYESのとこ

The part where I reread "YES."

そしたら300ページにさ

Then on page 300...

直感的な反発は

Intuitive rejection is

物事の基礎にある大きな力である

It is a great force that underlies the fundamentals of things.

これはおかしい

This is strange.

そういうのはもうやめてくれという感覚を

I have a feeling that I want you to stop doing that.

正直に表現するところから

Starting from expressing honestly.

すべてが始まるって感じ

It feels like everything is about to begin.

これまじで

This is serious.

まったくそうだな

That's exactly right.

あたずけられたって感じ

It feels like I've been suggested or pointed out.

感覚がするんだけど

I have a feeling.

そういうところはなんか

There's something about that place.

よりなんか大切にして

Take care of it more.

その出発点というかすべてが

That starting point, or rather everything.

始まるところを

At the point of beginning.

うん

Yeah.

より広めていきたいなっていう

I want to spread it more widely.

いろんな形でね

In various forms, you know.

授業はその一つだと思うし

I think class is one of those.

そうですね

That's right.

成人発達理論だから

Because it is adult development theory.

人がどう発達するかみたいなところで

In terms of how people develop.

なんかコーチングとかそういうところも

I think it's related to coaching and stuff like that too.

やっぱり人の発達みたいなところ見てると

After all, when observing aspects like human development...

結構あるなって感じなんだけど

I feel like there are quite a few of them.

なんかその

Well, um...

別にその辺の理論がどうのっていうよりも

It's not so much about the theories in that regard.

なんか僕が結構いろんな人見てて

I've been observing quite a few different people.

これめっちゃ大事だなって思ったのが

I thought this was really important.

なんかその

Well, um...

やっぱ違和感を

I still feel a sense of discomfort.

感じても

Even if I feel it.

自分の気持ちに正直になるのって

Being honest with your own feelings is...

めちゃくちゃ大変っていうか

It's not just extremely difficult, but rather...

現実的に不通が起きてくるから

Because disruptions will realistically occur.

なんか

Somehow

あまりにも会社で例えば

For example, too much at the company.

働いてるときに感じる

I feel it when I'm working.

違和感だったりとかっていうのを

It's about that feeling of discomfort.

自分の中から発掘しすぎると

If you dig too deep within yourself,

やめてしまうとか

Like quitting or giving up.

自分の生活が成り立たなくなるっていうことを

The idea that my life would become unsustainable.

直感的にこう

Intuitively like this.

癒さないようにして

"Try not to heal."

抑圧して抑圧していくと

As you continue to suppress and suppress,

それって結構その

Well, you see...

体の反応とかと直結してるから

Because it is directly linked to the body's reaction.

体が嫌だって言ってるみたいな

It feels like my body is saying it doesn't want to.

直感的に嫌だって言ってるっていうのは

What you are saying is that you intuitively dislike it.

体が拒否してるみたいなと

It feels like my body is rejecting it.

かなり近いみたいなところがあるって

It seems like there are places that are quite close.

結果それで

As a result, that's it.

なんか歪みが起きて

Some kind of distortion is happening.

病気になっていくだとか

Like getting sick or something.

なんかすごい調子悪くなってうつっぽくなってくる

I'm feeling really unwell and starting to feel depressed.

みたいなのはその違和感を発掘しないから

Because it doesn't discover that sense of discomfort.

うつっぽくなって

Feeling down.

逆に違和感を発掘さえすれば

Conversely, if you can uncover a sense of discomfort...

その分エネルギーも出て

That much energy is also being expended.

問題意識に向かって自分の

Towards the awareness of the problem, myself.

点を突き詰めるとか

To delve into the details.

なんかそういうふうに

In that kind of way.

本当にその違和感を

I really feel that discomfort.

全く見ないようにするのか

Are you trying to avoid seeing it completely?

見るのかっていうので

Are you going to watch it?

ちょっとこうなんだろうね

I guess it's something like this.

別れ道というか

It's like a crossroads.

ものになってるんだなーみたいなことを

It’s like it has become something, huh?

実感として結構思ってて

I actually feel that way quite a bit.

多分大学生とかは本当に

Maybe university students really are...

違和感を共有する人とかいなかったら

If there weren't any people to share the sense of discomfort with.

自分がおかしいって思うから

Because I think I'm weird.

多分LGBTの人とかもさ

Maybe people who are LGBT as well.

自分も責める方に

I will also end up blaming myself.

行ってた

I was going.

それは周りのみんなから否定されるからだと思うんだけど

I think it's because everyone around me denies it.

今だったらある程度の

If it were now, to some extent...

市民権というか

Rather than citizenship,

なんだろうね

I wonder what it is.

受け入れられてきて

Having been accepted.

自分が間違ってるんじゃないんだ

It's not that I'm wrong.

みたいなのが表明されてくると思うんだけど

I think something like that will be expressed.

そういう感じで

In that kind of feeling.

いまだ表明されてなかったり

It has not yet been expressed.

市民権を得てない

Not having citizenship.

特に日本の大学に入った

I entered a Japanese university, in particular.

大学生とかって

Like college students.

めちゃくちゃおってそうだなーって

It really seems like you're having a great time!

思ったなー

I thought so.