おしゃべり回だけどきわどいテーマで攻めます！「陰謀論」について話そう

ショーファームの農民ラジオ

Showfarm's Farmer Radio

みなさんこんにちは

Hello everyone.

ショーファームの農民ラジオ始まりました

The farmer's radio show from Show Farm has begun.

ショーファームの農民ラジオは

The farmer radio of Show Farm is

千年続く農業ビジョンに

A vision for agriculture that continues for a thousand years.

神奈川県横須賀市で農業を営む

Farming in Yokosuka City, Kanagawa Prefecture.

ショーファームのショーコ・ショーと

Shoko from Show Farm.

農園の仲間たちが一旦農業の話題を封印して

The friends on the farm temporarily sealed off the topic of agriculture.

フェミニズム、環境問題、社会正義など

Feminism, environmental issues, social justice, etc.

政治的な話題を

Political topics.

でもやっぱり農業についても語り合う

But we still talk about agriculture after all.

ポッドキャスト番組です

It's a podcast program.

というわけでショーコです

So, it's Shoko.

ショーです

It's a show.

カイです

It's Kai.

はい、じゃあ今日はこの3人でお届けしていくんですけど

Yes, well then, today we will be delivering with these three people.

テーマは?

What is the theme?

ちょっとこれぶち込んでみたいなと思う

I feel like trying to put this in.

テーマがあるので

Because there is a theme.

テーマはですね

The theme is...

陰謀論です

It's a conspiracy theory.

いいですね

That's good.

陰謀論について考えてみようっていう

Let's think about conspiracy theories.

ちょっとディープな回にしたいなと思ってるんですけど

I want to make this a bit of a deep episode.

俺結構大人になってからだな

I became an adult quite a bit later.

24歳ぐらいで初めて陰謀論っていうものを知ったから

I first learned about conspiracy theories at around 24 years old.

大学卒業して

After graduating from university.

2年ぐらい経ってから

After about two years.

陰謀論って言葉自体

The term "conspiracy theory" itself

そうそうそうそう

That's right, that's right, that's right.

ああそうですか

Oh, I see.

うん

Yeah.

カイさんは?

Where's Kai?

自分は大学在学中ですかね

I guess I'm still in college.

20歳ぐらいには陰謀論っていう言葉は知ってた気がしますね

I feel like I knew the term "conspiracy theory" around the age of 20.

結構際どいトピックじゃないですか

Isn't this quite a sensitive topic?

すごい際ものを言ってきますよ

They're saying something amazing.

際どいよね

That's a close call, isn't it?

いやでもこれが後々ですね

Well, this will be later, right?

今回フェミニズム界で

This time in the world of feminism

ずっとやってきたけど

I've been doing it all along.

この後エコロジー界やりたいなとかって思ってるんですけど

I'm thinking about wanting to get into the ecology field after this.

それともすごく関わってくる話で

Or is it something that is very involved?

あの

Um...

都知事選で

In the Tokyo gubernatorial election

うつびさんの話が出たと思うんですけども

I think the topic of Utsubi-san came up.

そうすると結構ディープ系のエコロジストたちが

In that case, there are quite a few deep ecologists.

うつみさん支持してる人が多いよねみたいな話

It seems like there are a lot of people supporting Utsumi, right?

でうつみさんががっつり陰謀論的なことを

Well, Utsumi-san is really into conspiracy theories.

言ってくれたんですけども

You said it, but...

そういうのが

That kind of thing.

主張している方でみたいなところと

It seems like you're trying to express something along the lines of "the places where they are asserting."

だんだんつながってくる話なので

It's a story that gradually connects.

その話しましたもんね

We talked about that, didn't we?

多分陰謀論っていう言葉もその時出したかな

Maybe I also brought up the word conspiracy theory at that time.

ちょこっとね

Just a little bit.

そんな気がしますよね

I feel that way too.

一般的に陰謀論って言われた時にはですよ

Generally, when we talk about conspiracy theories...

最初にその言葉とコンタクトする時って

When you first come into contact with that word,

ちょっとやばい感じですよね

It feels a bit dangerous, doesn't it?

そうだね

That's right.

裏社会っていうか

It's not exactly the underworld, but...

なんだろうね

I wonder what it is.

陰謀論の中にもすごい幅があるじゃないですか

There is a wide range within conspiracy theories, isn't there?

アメリカとかだとキューアノンとか

In places like America, there's QAnon and so on.

日本だと

In Japan,

フリーメイソンとかね

Like the Freemasons, you know.

ロスチャイルドとか

Rothschild, for example.

そういう意味では小学生ぐらいの時から

In that sense, since around elementary school...

都市伝説っていうのは

Urban legends are...

都市伝説って言葉は

The word urban legend means...

あれですね

That's right.

ありましたね

It exists, doesn't it?

そういえば

By the way.

確かに確かに

Indeed, indeed.

一度に言われた時は

When I was told all at once,

1ドル札のこうやって見ると

When you look at a dollar bill like this…

そこに目が書いてあるとかね

There are eyes drawn there, you know.

ピラミッドと目ね

The pyramid and the eye.

その辺も一応陰謀論の中にはあるのかな

I wonder if that's included in the conspiracy theories as well.

そうでしょうね

I guess so.

そうですよね

That's right.

一方でそういう組織みたいな話もあれば

On the other hand, there are also stories about organizations like that.

割と身近なところで言うと

To put it relatively close to home,

ワクチンの問題とか

Issues related to vaccines.

この間もうつみさんのところで言ったけど

I mentioned this the other day at Utsumi-san's place, but...

ちょっと話しましたけど

I talked a little.

実際に選挙の公約の中にも掲げられるような

Such as those that are actually presented in election pledges.

ワクチンをじゃあ誰が作っててみたいな

So then, who is making the vaccine?

そういう具体的な話まで陰謀論の中に

Such specific topics are also included in conspiracy theories.

そうね

I see.

含まれてるっていう感じですよね

It feels like it's included, right?

あとはなんか地震とか台風が起きるたびに

"Every time an earthquake or typhoon occurs..."

これは人工地震だとか

This is said to be an artificial earthquake.

あそうですそうだ

Oh, I see.

それも陰謀論も含まれますね

That also includes conspiracy theories.

そうですよね

That's right.

そうですね

That's right.

あとこれも結構際どいところ行きますけど

Also, this is quite a delicate matter.

あの地球温暖化とかどうですか

How about that global warming?

多分リスナーの中には

Perhaps among the listeners,

地球温暖化と陰謀論がどう結びつくんだ

How are global warming and conspiracy theories connected?

みたいな方もいらっしゃると思うんですけど

I think there are people who feel that way.

結構そもそも地球温暖化なんてないんだと

Actually, there isn't really such a thing as global warming.

いう人もいる

Some people say that.

いますよね

There is, isn't there?

地球温暖化っていうのを留守しているのは

What I'm neglecting is global warming.

闇の組織みたいな

Like a dark organization.

そういうニュアンスの話もありますよね

There are also stories with that kind of nuance, right?

要はなんかくくるのちょっと難しいけど

In short, it's a bit difficult to tie something together, but...

陰謀論って言った時に

When you said conspiracy theory

何かすごく力を持った悪い悪の組織みたいなのがあって

There seems to be some kind of incredibly powerful evil organization.

それが私たちの身の回りの様々な事を

That brings various things around us.

実は全部コントロールしてるんだみたいな感じかな

I guess it feels like I'm actually controlling everything.

個人的にはそういうイメージを持っているし

Personally, I have that kind of image.

陰謀って言う言葉が持つ力みたいなところだ

It's like the power that the word 'conspiracy' carries.

と思いますけど

I think so, but...

誰かの画策によって全てが決まってる

Everything is decided by someone's scheme.

って感覚ですよね

That's the feeling, isn't it?

うんうんうん

Hmm, hmm, hmm.

うーん

Hmm.

あ、 когда Verkehrになりますけどね

Ah, when it becomes traffic, you know.

なんかねこういう…

You know, something like this...

何を陰謀論とするかっていうのがまずそもそも結構難しくて

Determining what constitutes a conspiracy theory is fundamentally quite difficult to begin with.

例えば

For example.

全てが政府の発表じゃないものとか

Not everything is based on government announcements.

科学的に担保されてないものとか

Things that are not scientifically guaranteed.

本当にいろんなものがあるんだけれども

There are really all sorts of things.

そういったすべての公式発表以外の言説に対して

Against all comments other than those official announcements.

陰謀論だって片付けてしまうっていうのは

To dismiss it as just a conspiracy theory is...

そこも違うなっていうふうに思ってて

I think that's also different.

例えばお金の話とかさ

For example, talking about money.

よく甲斐さんと中央銀行制度がなかなかって言ったりするけど

I often hear that Mr. Kai and the central banking system are quite something.

お金の仕組みってみんな

The mechanism of money is something everyone...

どういうふうにお金が作られて

How is money created?

どういうふうに

How should I do it?

それが

That is it.

集められて回されていて

Gathered and being rotated.

それで利益を受ける人たちが

The people who benefit from it are

実はいるじゃないですか

Actually, you are here.

銀行の利子とかも

Interest from banks and so on.

そこら辺を

Around there.

みんながお金ってこういうものですよね

Everyone thinks money is like this, right?

みたいなこういうふうに生まれて

Born like this, in a way that feels like...

こういうふうに回ってきますよねっていうことが

It comes around like this, right?

誰もちゃんと教えられてないというか

It's more like no one has properly been taught.

なんとなくもう存在していて

Somehow, it has already existed.

それが当たり前になってるけど

It's become the norm, but...

その制度の仕組み自体考えると

Considering the structure of that system itself...

あれなんかこれ不公平じゃないみたいな部分ってあるじゃないですか

Isn't there something about that that seems unfair?

そもそも自分たちの生活とか

In the first place, our own lives and such...

身の前で起きてることの仕組みとか

The mechanisms of what is happening in front of me.

その出所みたいなお金の出所とかあるいはワクチンってどこからきてるんだろうとか

I wonder where the source of that money is and where the vaccines are coming from.

あるいはワクチンってどこからきてるんだろうとか

I wonder where the vaccine comes from.

てるの誰が作ってるのとか あるいは政府の発表って

"Who is making it, or maybe the government's announcement?"

じゃあ誰が考えて発表してるのとか 自分たちが見えていないことそして

So, who is thinking and presenting this, and what we are not aware of?

触れなくてもいいことにされている範囲について 語り出すと

When I start to talk about the range of things that are deemed unnecessary to touch...

それ全て陰謀論ということになってしまう 陰謀論という言葉の曖昧さみたいなものがありますよね

That all ends up being a conspiracy theory. There's a certain ambiguity in the term "conspiracy theory," isn't there?

例えば今しょうこさんがおっしゃってたお金の話とかで言うと じゃあお金の発行権を持っているのは中央銀行で中央銀行のその制度ってじゃあいつから

For example, regarding the money discussion that Shoko was talking about, if we say that the right to issue money is held by the central bank, then when did that system of the central bank start?

あるのかとかって知ってますかと 学校でそれ習い

Do you know if it exists? I learned that at school.

絶対に習わないですよね

You definitely won't learn it, right?

実際日銀に友達が就職しましたけど

Actually, a friend got a job at the Bank of Japan.

日銀の就職の最初の新入社員説明会の時に

At the first orientation for new employees of the Bank of Japan.

中央銀行とは何かっていう話をするんですけど

I'm going to talk about what a central bank is.

そこで中央銀行株式会社ですよと

So, it's the Central Bank Corporation.

その株式の半分を持っているのは

The one who holds half of that stock is...

40何%だったかな50何%だったかな

Was it something like 40-something percent or 50-something percent?

だいたい半分を持っているのは日本政府ですよ

The Japanese government holds about half of it.

もう半分は誰が持っているか分かりません

I don't know who has the other half.

って入社式で言うんですよ

That's what they say at the entrance ceremony.

じゃあ誰の持ち物なんだ

Then whose belongings are they?

すごいことだよね

It's amazing, isn't it?

すごいことじゃないですか

Isn't it amazing?

日本の金融の根幹ですよ

It's the foundation of Japan's finance.

誰が持っているか分からない

I don't know who has it.

誰が持っているのか分からない

I don't know who has it.

謎の中央

Mysterious Center

中央銀行という組織が日本という国家

The organization known as the central bank is the state of Japan.

日本円が流通する範囲内

Within the scope of Japanese yen circulation.

全てのお金を発行しているっていう

It is said that all money is being issued.

そういう状況を意識しないですよね

You don't really notice that kind of situation, do you?

普段

Usually

そういうもんだって思ってるからね

That's just how it is, I believe.

ただ物と物を交換するための件で

It's just a matter of exchanging goods for goods.

ちゃんと政府が公正にね

The government needs to be fair properly.

需要と供給見ながら出してるんだろうな

It seems like they are adjusting based on supply and demand.

ぐらいの話なんだろうと思っちゃうけど

I can't help but think it's about that level.

でもそこには

But there...

実際には発行の仕方って本来いろいろあって

In reality, there are actually various ways to issue it.

例えば今僕らはこの西洋の社会の中に

For example, right now we are in this Western society.

西洋文明の社会の中に生きてるから

Because we live in a society of Western civilization.

利子付きのお金を発行していくことって当たり前だけどね

It's natural to issue money with interest, isn't it?

だけど

But.

じゃあイスラム圏に行けば

Then you should go to the Islamic world.

利子付きのお金を発行することは

Issuing money with interest

固く禁じられてるわけですよ

It is strictly prohibited.

それはなぜかといえば詐欺だからですよね

That's because it's a scam, right?

利子なんて

Interest is nothing.

詐欺なんですよ

It's a scam.

それはイスラムの世界では詐欺なんですよ

In the Islamic world, that is considered fraud.

でもこの国では

But in this country...

それはまかり通ってるんですよね

That's how it goes, isn't it?

そこにはきっと複雑な理由があるんだけれども

There must be complex reasons for that.

そのせいで

Because of that.

もともとあるはずのお金と

The money that is supposed to exist originally

じゃあ誰かに貸し付けた時に

So when I lent it to someone.

誰かプラスで返さなきゃいけないお金っていうのが増えるから

Because the money that needs to be paid back with interest will increase.

お金がどんどんどんどん

Money keeps coming and coming.

その負債によって増えていって

It continues to grow due to that debt.

架空のお金っていうのが

It's called imaginary money.

無限に増え続けていくっていう

It's said to keep increasing infinitely.

そういう無限増殖の仕組みになっちゃってるわけですね

So it has become a mechanism of infinite replication.

利子っていうのは

Interest refers to

だから本来物が持っている価値と

So the value that things inherently have

投下の物がマネーなのではない

What is being dropped is not money.

価値そのものとは関係ない速度と規模で

At a speed and scale that has nothing to do with the value itself.

マネーのみが増大していってしまっていて

Only the money is increasing.

それがその資本主義の根幹にある

That is at the core of capitalism.

お金の発行の仕組み自体がその資本主義の根幹にあって

The mechanism of money issuance itself is at the core of capitalism.

それが多くの問題をもたらしてるっていうことは

That means it is causing many problems.

語られないですよね

It isn't talked about, is it?

やっぱり

As I expected.

今言われてもポカンってする人もいるかもしれないね

Some people might still be confused if they hear it now.

まあそうですよね

Well, that's true.

じゃあちょっと改めて

Well then, let's do it again.

この回はね

This time, you see...

やりたいね

I want to do it.

塩ビンコ制度

Vinyl chloride system

例えば今子供のために借りた本があったんですけど

For example, there was a book I borrowed for the children.

もしも地球が一つのリンゴだったらっていうね

What if the Earth were one single apple?

それでいろんなものを

So with various things...

ちょっと分かりやすい単位に置き換えて

Please convert it into a slightly easier-to-understand unit.

それでどんな風に物が分布してるかっていうのを

So, how are the objects distributed?

示したい本なんですけど

It's a book I want to show you.

例えばお金っていうところだと

For example, when it comes to money...

世界

World

あここね

I see.

えーと

Um...

こっちですごいお金

A lot of money over here.

アメリカドルと言われる

It is called the US dollar.

世界中のでも世界中のお金を100枚のHHコインで表すと

If you represent all the money in the world with 100 HH coins,

どうなるかという

What will happen?

世界の人口の上1%のお金持ちで40枚持ってる

I am among the top 1% of wealthy people in the world and own 40 pieces.

100枚のち40枚がね

Out of 100 sheets, 40 sheets.

その1%がね

That 1%...

人口がそうね

The population, that's right.

そうね

That's right.

45万9人で45万40%で14万で残りの50%つまり世界人口の半分の人でたった1枚のコインを分け合っていることになる

With 459,000 people and 40% of 459,000 being 140,000, it means that the remaining 50%, or half of the world's population, is sharing just one coin.

なるわけですよね

That makes sense, doesn't it?

すっごい不公平じゃないですか

Isn't that really unfair?

お金ね

Money, huh?

お金ね不公平ですよね

Money, isn't it unfair?

おかしいじゃんって思うじゃないですか

You'd think that's strange, right?

やっぱりこういった不平等っていうものが私たちの社会の中に当然のように内在しているっていうことはですよ

Indeed, the existence of such inequalities is something that is inherently present in our society.

アメリカとか国連とか日本とかが世界の人が平等に健康に幸せに生きるためにみたいな

Something like the United States, the United Nations, and Japan, all working towards a world where everyone can live equally, healthily, and happily.

頑張ってますみたいなね

It's like I'm doing my best.

嘘やんみたいな

That's a lie, isn't it?

そうやんってなりますよね

That would make you say "That's right," wouldn't it?

公式発表を信じられないじゃないですか

You can't believe the official announcement, can you?

明らかに何かこうお金の仕組み一つとっても社会とか文化とか政治経済的な力が働かない限りこんな不平等なことって起き得ないと思うんですよね

Clearly, I don't think such inequality could happen unless there are social, cultural, or political economic forces at play, even just looking at the mechanism of money.

やっぱりそれは何で起こったのかなっていうのを考えていくとやっぱり

I can't help but wonder what caused that to happen.

ザ陰謀論ではないですけれどもやっぱりこう

It's not a conspiracy theory, but still...

もっと権力を持ちたいとかもっとお金を稼ぎたいって言ってるすごく上位1%の人たちが何かしら

The top 1% of people who are saying they want to have more power or earn more money are something.

あと

After

政治的な力を持っているというふうにはなんか普通に考えられるかな domestic

It seems that having political power can be normally considered domestic.

なんか仕組みだからお金って発行する仕組みじゃないですかで流通させる仕組みで仕組みいって絶対人間が作ってるんですよね誰かが作ってて仕組みを

It's like a system, isn't it? Money is a mechanism that gets issued and circulated. The system is definitely created by humans; someone has made this system.

でもそれを作ってるのは明らかに庶民じゃないわけですよ

But it's obvious that those who are making it are not common people.

僕たちがなんでかっていうと

The reason why we are...

僕らには発行権がないわけじゃないですか

We don’t have the right to issue it, do we?

お金を発行する権利はなくて自分たちは

We do not have the right to issue money.

それって重罪になりますよね

That's a serious crime, isn't it?

日本とかで勝手にお金を作ると

If you create money arbitrarily in Japan or elsewhere,

だから仕組みの中で制限されていて

So it is restricted within the system.

じゃあその仕組みを作ってる人たちが

Well then, the people who are creating that system...

誰なのかっていうところを突き止めるのは難しいかもしれないけれども

It might be difficult to find out who it is, but...

誰かが作っていることは確かっていうことは言える

It can be said for sure that someone is making it.

ですよね

That's right.

なんか陰謀論って言うと多分そこで

When it comes to conspiracy theories, I suppose that's where it stops.

急に特定をしようとしてしまうと思うんですね

I think that suddenly trying to make a specific identification could happen.

批判されて簡単に批判されちゃう陰謀論

Conspiracy theories that are easily criticized and criticized.

っていうのは多分その時に

That probably means at that time.

いわゆるロスチャイルド家の王家の人たちの中の

Among the so-called royal family of the Rothschild family.

誰々さんですよとか

It's someone like so-and-so.

あるいはビルゲイツ財団の誰々さんが

Or someone from the Bill Gates Foundation.

世界のすべてを牛耳っているんだとか

They say they control everything in the world.

そうやって特定していくっていう形になると思うんですけど

I think it will take the form of identifying it that way.

そうすると急にその周りで起きている出来事が

Then suddenly, the events happening around that place...

多分見えなくなってくるんですよね

Maybe it will become invisible.

このお金の仕組みに例えば言えば

For example, in terms of how this money system works,

仕組みのことを言えば

Speaking of the mechanism.

じゃあすごくそれを利用してうまく

Well, then, let's use it effectively.

ビルゲイツだったり

It could be Bill Gates.

ロスチャイルド家の人たちは

The people of the Rothschild family

それをうまく利用したかもしれないけれども

I might have made good use of that, but...

おそらくその他にも同じ仕組みを利用しようとした人たちは

Perhaps there were others who tried to use the same mechanism.

たくさんいただろうし

There were probably many.

その中の競争に勝って今生き残ってる人たちだけの可能性も十分にあるし

There is also a strong possibility that only those who have survived by winning in that competition are still alive.

あるいは少し自分の周りを見渡してみても

Or perhaps, if I take a look around me a little.

お金をめちゃくちゃ稼ぎたい人って普通にたくさんいません?

Aren't there a lot of people who just really want to make a lot of money?

いません

There is no one.

いくらでもいるんですよね

There are many, aren’t there?

だからその誰かを特定してその人が悪いんだっていうことには

So identifying someone and saying that person is to blame for it...

おそらくあまり意味がなくて

Perhaps it doesn't make much sense.

そこにそういう欺瞞があることは暴く必要があるんだけれども

It is necessary to expose the fact that such deception exists there.

それはあらゆる人のあらゆる思惑の上で成り立ってるんだっていう認識に立たないと

You need to recognize that it is built upon everyone's various intentions.

おかしくなっていっちゃう気がしますね

I feel like I'm going to go crazy.

なんか前海さんとこの話をしてた時に

I was talking about something with Maikai-san earlier.

例えてくださったのがすごく分かりやすかったなと思ったので

I thought the analogy you provided was really easy to understand.

例えばクラスの中で

For example, in the class.

例えば30人の生徒と1人の先生がいたら

For example, if there are 30 students and 1 teacher.

それぞれ31人分の表沙汰にはならない

It won't become a public matter for each of the 31 people.

私枠があるわけですよ

I have a slot, you see.

それがいろんな風に絡み合って絡み合って

It gets intertwined in various ways.

一つのクラスっていうのが成り立っているわけなんだけれども

A single class is established.

今いわゆるすごくチープな陰謀論というか

Right now, it's what you might call a really cheap conspiracy theory.

Qアノンとかね

Such as QAnon.

あとはロスチャイルドではうんちゃらかんちゃらみたいのは

As for the Rothschilds, there's something or other like that...

もう先生が悪いんだみたいな

It's like blaming the teacher.

先生が陰謀を張っているから

Because the teacher is plotting a conspiracy.

全ての子どもたちがこういう風に考えて

I hope all children think this way.

こういう風に動いているんだみたいな話にしてしまっていると

If you turn it into a story about how things are moving like this...

それが間違っているよねっていうところを指摘していて

You're pointing out where that's wrong, right?

すごく秀逸な途絶えだなって思った

I thought it was a really excellent interruption.

そんなことは言ったんですね

I see you said something like that.

忘れちゃいましたけど

I forgot, but...

でもその話を聞くと僕もそうだよなと

But when I hear that story, I feel the same way.

自分が言ったかと思いました

I thought I said that.

だって告げ口する子とかもいるし

Because there are kids who gossip.

そのクラスが嫌いで

I hate that class.

もうめちゃくちゃにしたいって思うかもしれない

You might feel like you want to mess everything up.

誰か思う子もいるから

Because there are some who think of others.

そのクラスからドロップアウトしている子もいるかもしれないし

There may be some children who have dropped out of that class.

いろんなのがあって

There are various things.

同時に忘れちゃいけないのが

What you must not forget at the same time is

多分実社会だとそこに暴力が必ずつきまとっていて

Perhaps in the real world, violence always accompanies it.

この例えだと多分先生

In this analogy, it’s probably the teacher.

先生が暴力していいことになっているんですよね

It's accepted that teachers can use violence, right?

今の社会だと

In today's society

それが国家とか

That relates to the nation or something like that.

政府とか

Government and such.

そういう

In that way.

僕ら市民は暴力することは

We citizens do not resort to violence.

許されていないけれども

Even though it is not permitted.

ある特定の集団

A specific group

組織になると

When it becomes an organization

警察みたいな感じで

Like a police officer.

暴力っていう手段を取ってもいいことになっていて

It's considered acceptable to resort to violence.

それが強いレギュレーションを

That has strong regulations.

強い

Strong

力を持つ

To have power.

っていうことは

That means...

嫌悪に起こり得ることなんだけれども

It could arise from disgust, but...

でもそれも結局

But in the end, that too...

組織なんですよね

It's an organization, isn't it?

暴力手段を持ってる人たちも

Those who have violent means as well.

特定の個人ではなくて

Not a specific individual.

その中に組織があって

There is an organization among them.

組織の中にいろんな人がいてっていう構造だから

Because there are various people within the organization, it's a structure like that.

なんか分かりやすいピラミッドって

It's kind of an easy-to-understand pyramid.

多分どこにもないんですよ

Maybe it doesn't exist anywhere.

それに気づきたいって感じですかね

I guess it's a feeling of wanting to notice that.

なんかみんなで

Somehow, everyone together.

でも陰謀論にハマっちゃう人って

But people who get hooked on conspiracy theories...

まあ結構農園やってると合うんですけど

Well, I tend to meet a lot of people while running a farm.

どういう人が多いかな

I wonder what kind of people are there.

でも最近多いのは

But recently, what's been common is...

コロナの時に全て分かっちゃったみたいな人がいるけどね

There are people who seem to have figured everything out during the corona period.

その人の中で全て分かったんですね

You understood everything about that person, didn't you?

そうそうそう

That's right, that's right, that's right.

コロナの時に食事のあり方とか

How meals were approached during COVID.

ワクチンとか

Vaccines and such.

それによって

By that means

いろいろおかしいっていうことに気づいちゃった

I realized that there are various things that are strange.

なんか打たされるから多分

"Because you'll probably be made to hit something."

なんか急に打たされるのおかしくないって言って調べてるうちに

Isn't it strange that I suddenly have to be shot, and while I'm investigating?

あれ製薬会社めっちゃ儲けてるぞみたいなところから入っていって

"Let's start with something like, 'That pharmaceutical company is making a lot of profit.'"

とかってことですよねきっと

I guess that's what it means, right?

あとはなんかそういうのおかしいなって思うと

When I think that something like that is a bit strange...

もうフィルターバブルだからね

It's already a filter bubble, you know.

調べれば調べるほど

The more I investigate, the more...

なんかこれやばいですやばいですやばいですみたいな

This is really bad, it's really bad, it's really bad or something like that.

そこにはあそこたくの組織があってみたいな情報に

There seems to be information about a organization like Akutaku over there.

どんどんどんどんハマり込んでいってしまう

I'm getting more and more hooked.

なんかそう結構そういうのにハマってしまうと

Once you get hooked on something like that, it’s pretty intense.

ハマっちゃう人そういうストーリーにどっぷり入っちゃう

People who get hooked really immerse themselves in that kind of story.

でも最初は楽しいよきっと

But it's definitely fun at first.

あー確かに

Ah, that's true.

まあ確かにね

Well, that's true.

周りの周りの人が知らない真実を私は知っているみたいな

It's like I know a truth that those around me don't.

そうそうそうそう

Right, right, right, right.

やっぱりこことここが繋がったらやっぱりこうなんだって思ってた

I really thought that if these two were connected, it would be like this after all.

確かにエキサイティングではありますよね

It is certainly exciting, isn't it?

でもねそうじゃないってことでもね

But you see, that's not the case either.

なんかあの全部繋げすぎちゃうというか

It feels like everything is being overly connected or something.

全部繋げすぎちゃうというか

It's like everything is connected too much.

いやこないだの台風だって全部そうだとか

"Well, even the last typhoon was all like that."

こないだの地震も絶対そうだとか

The recent earthquake was definitely one of those.

もうなんならね目の前蜂が通っててこれも陰謀だみたいな

"Well, if anything, there’s a bee flying right in front of me, and it feels like this is a conspiracy too."

どんどんどんどんあらゆるものがそういうストーリーに回収されてしまうっていうのは

Little by little, everything is being drawn into that kind of story.

なんていうのかな

I wonder what to say.

確かに今の社会っていうのはものすごく複雑だし

Indeed, the current society is incredibly complex.

なんか大きなものを変えなきゃいけない局面の中でも

Even in the situation where we have to change something big,

自分にできることとか

Things I can do.

自分にできることってすごく限られてるし

What I can do is really limited.

なんかそこに対して諦めたくなっちゃうじゃないですか

It makes me want to give up on that, you know?

なんか諦めた方が簡単だしね

Sometimes it feels easier to just give up.

自分にできることは何もないみたいな

It feels like there's nothing I can do.

なんかそういうものの諦めというか

It's more like a sense of resignation towards those kinds of things.

もう思考を停止した方が楽だっていうスイッチが入っちゃうと

Once the switch is flipped that it's easier to just stop thinking,

どんどんそういう方に流されていっちゃうんじゃないかなっていう懸念をしています

I have concerns that you might gradually be influenced by such people.

確かにね

That's true.

もうどうしようもないですもんね

There's nothing we can do anymore, right?

本当にそれを言い始めると

If you really start saying that

でもまあ答えがわかってるから楽なんだろうね

Well, I guess it's easy since I already know the answer.

その人もね

That person too.

やっぱり

I knew it.

自分の中の答えがね

The answer within myself.

やっぱりはあいつが悪だから

As I thought, that guy is the one at fault.

もうそしたらこうなっちゃってるんだよねみたいなとか

It's already become something like this, you know?

またあの悪だからもうしょうがないのよみたいな

"It's like saying there's nothing we can do about that evil again."

しょうがないのこの世の中悪がやってんだよみたいな

It's just how it is; in this world, evil is running rampant.

笑

Laugh.

悪ってこと?笑

Is that what you call evil? Haha.

あいつがこう牛耳ってんだからしょうがないのみたいな

"I guess there's nothing we can do because that guy is calling the shots."

までなっちゃうとやっぱさ面白くないんじゃないかなと思っちゃうけどね

I can't help but think that it becomes less interesting, doesn't it?

そうですよね

That's right.

難しいね

It's difficult, isn't it?

単純なストーリーに回収されるっていう危険性もあるし

There is also the risk of being caught up in a simple story.

かといってね政府の公式発表でね

That being said, in the government's official announcement...

日本をもっと素晴らしい国にこれからもしていきますとかね

I will continue to make Japan an even more wonderful country from now on.

アメリカは自由と正義の国ですみたいな

America is a country of freedom and justice, or something like that.

そうですよね

That's right.

信じて生きていくっていうのが違うと思うし

I think it's different to live by believing.

笑

Smile

イスラエル虐殺しながら愛と平和語られてる

While Israel is committing massacre, love and peace are being spoken of.

笑

Smile

でも愛と平和って言ってんだから

But they're talking about love and peace.

それ以外のことを考えることは陰謀論だみたいなね

Anything other than that is like a conspiracy theory.

そうですね

That's right.

笑

Smile

その辺の

Around there.

多分見極める必要はないんだろうけど

Maybe it's not necessary to distinguish it.

情報を

Information

なんか自分の中で精査していく必要はありそうですよね

It seems like there is a need to examine it carefully within myself.

誰が何て言ってるかっていうことを

What people are saying

その多分誰がを忘れちゃうんだと思うんですよね

I think that's probably why everyone forgets who it is.

例えば政府がこう言ってるっていうことはそれは事実ではなくて

For example, the fact that the government says this means it is not true.

政府が言ってることじゃないですか

Isn't that what the government is saying?

じゃあ政府とは何かっていうところを今度は問える

Then we can ask what the government is.

政府が言ってるっていうことを認識できる

I can recognize what the government is saying.

あるいは陰謀論とかも

Or maybe conspiracy theories too.

本当にそれにハマっちゃうけどね

You really get hooked on it, though.

そういう人って多分

There are probably a lot of people like that.

○○さんが言ってることが

What ○○ is saying is

○○さんがたぶん見えなくなっちゃって

It seems that Mr./Ms. ○○ has probably disappeared.

事実になっちゃうんだと思うんですよ

I think it will become a reality.

だから常に情報が

So information is always...

自分が今持ってる情報が

The information I currently have is...

誰から発されているもので

It comes from someone.

それにはどんな意図があって

What intention is behind that?

どんな思惑がある

What intentions are there?

可能性があるのかっていうことには

Whether there is a possibility or not.

やっぱり広げておかないと

After all, you have to spread it out.

うん

Yeah.

どんどんどんどん思い込みになっていっちゃいますよね

It's easy to get swept away by assumptions more and more, isn't it?

でも一個またちょっと話飛びますけど

Well, I'll jump a little off topic again.

あのさっきの最初にちょっと話した

Earlier, I mentioned something briefly at the beginning.

温暖化の話で言うと

Speaking of global warming,

結構その陰謀論者の人たちにとっては

For those conspiracy theorists, it is quite...

それはいろんな政府とか国が

That involves various governments and countries.

そうやって留守することで

By being away like that.

二酸化炭素排出権とかを奪い合ってるだけだ

They are just competing for carbon dioxide emission rights.

さらなるビジネスのためにやってるだけなんだ

I'm just doing this for further business.

っていう話を結構する

I often talk about that.

で僕はそれも嘘じゃないと思ってます

And I also believe that it's not a lie.

間違いなくあると思うそれは

I definitely think it exists.

だって二酸化炭素排出権なんて取れば取るほど

The more carbon dioxide emission rights you acquire, the more...

そんなの有利になるに決まってるじゃないですか

Of course, that will definitely give you an advantage.

新しい産業を作り放題

Unlimited creation of new industries.

パネルを作れば作るほどね

The more panels you create.

そうなんですよね

That's right.

だからそういう意図があるのは間違いないんだけれども

So there is definitely that intention, but...

じゃあそうなんだって言って

Well then, say that.

あれはだから嘘なんだ

That’s why it’s a lie.

もう温暖化に対して何もしなくていいんだってなったら

If it were to be said that we no longer need to do anything about global warming...

それこそ地球おしまいじゃないのっていう話なんですよね

That's the kind of story that makes you think the world is really coming to an end, isn't it?

そこだよね

That's the place, isn't it?

だってその逆を張ってるチームもいるわけですよ

That's because there are teams that are doing the opposite.

それは嘘だって

That's a lie.

だから今の話は3つの問題は何かっていうのを

So now let's discuss what the three issues are.

科学的に証明したいっていうチームがいるけど

There is a team that wants to prove it scientifically, but...

そっちはそっちでやっぱり石油会社とか石炭会社とか

Over there, there are still oil companies and coal companies.

化石燃料で儲けてる動きたく

I want to move to profit from fossil fuels.

今のビジネスから動きたくない

I don't want to move away from my current business.

利権を手放したくないチームからの陰謀を受けて

Due to a conspiracy from a team that doesn't want to give up their vested interests.

そういった調査をしてるわけで

We are conducting such research.

そっちもそっちで利権なんですよ

That's a vested interest on your side too.

利権と利権がぶつかってる状況っていうのは

The situation where interests are colliding with each other is

間違いなくある?

Is it definitely there?

手軽に言うと科学ですよね

In simple terms, it's science, isn't it?

科学はもちろんすごく研究費がかかる問題だし

Of course, science is a problem that requires a lot of research funding.

それで大学のポスターとか研究員のポスターとか

So, university posters and researcher posters, etc.

本当に見苦しい白い巨頭の世界ですから

It's truly an unsightly world of the white giant.

純粋に実力だけの世界ではないにせよ

Even though it's not a world purely based on ability.

でも気候変動に関しては

But when it comes to climate change...

本当にあらゆる分野の科学者が

Scientists from truly every field

あらゆる角度から論文を書いて組み立てているので

I am writing and structuring the paper from all angles.

そこを覆していくというのは

To overturn that is...

ちょっと不可能に近いレベルになっているかなというのは

I feel like it's getting close to an impossible level.

一応科学をかじったものとしてちょっと思いますよね

As someone who has dabbled in science, I can't help but think a little about it.

科学というのは複雑系を捉えることは非常に苦手なんですけど

Science is very poor at capturing complex systems.

還元主義的な方法で

In a reductionist way

全体を切り取ってというのが得意な手法なんですけども

It's a technique that specializes in capturing the whole.

でもまあ

Well, anyway...

あらゆる分野からね

From all fields.

それこそ熱力学だとか海洋だとか植物だとか天文学とか

That's precisely thermodynamics, oceanography, botany, and astronomy.

そういった分野が集まって結局同じような結論になっているというのは

The fact that such fields come together and ultimately reach similar conclusions is...

もうちょっと覆しようがないかなというのは感じますね

I feel like there's no way to overturn it a little bit more.

あとは人間の心理としてどうしても信じたいものを信じるというのがあるじゃないですか

There's also the human psychology aspect where we tend to believe what we want to believe, isn’t there?

やっぱり気候変動が深刻な

After all, climate change is serious.

危機であるというふうに考えるか否かというのは

Whether or not one considers it a crisis is...

どっちを信じたいかみたいなところもありますよね

There is also the aspect of wanting to believe one over the other, right?

やっぱり危機が迫っているってなったら

When it comes to feeling that a crisis is approaching...

いろいろ変えなきゃいけないじゃないですか

We have to change various things, right?

自分の暮らしもそうだし社会もそうだし

It's true for my life and for society as well.

変えたくないなみたいなさ

I don't want to change it, you know?

仕事も変えたくないし

I don't want to change my job either.

このままの暮らしがいいしってなったら

If you think living like this is good, then...

やっぱり

As I thought.

え、何?

Huh, what?

気候危機ないっていう説もあるわけ?みたいな

Is there a theory that says there is no climate crisis?

うん

Yeah.

そっちになんか飛びつきたくなっちゃう

I feel like jumping over there.

人間の心理みたいなものもあるような気がしますよね

I feel like there is also something like human psychology involved.

確かにね

That's true.

そこにそれぞれ自分の使いたい論文だったり

There are papers that each person wants to use.

科学だったりっていうのを

Whether it’s science or something like that.

ほらこういう研究だったよみたいな感じで

It's like, "See, it was research like this."

それぞれがやってる感じがしちゃいますよね

It feels like everyone is doing their own thing, doesn't it?

まあそれぞれがやってますよね

Well, everyone is doing their own things, right?

それをやってますよ

I'm doing that.

それこそ陰謀があらゆるところにあるという

That's exactly what they say, that there's a conspiracy everywhere.

そういうことではありますけどね

That's how it is, though.

まあやっぱり私は

Well, after all, I...

私の世界認識は

My perception of the world is

やっぱり世界ってめちゃくちゃ複雑だと思うんですよ

I really think the world is incredibly complex.

これだけの数の人間がいて

With this many people around,

それまでの長い長い歴史があって

It has a long, long history leading up to that.

それぞれ

Each one

それぞれの文化だったり

Each culture, or rather,

考え方だったり

It was a way of thinking.

歴史だったり政治だったり

History or politics.

社会の背景がある中で

In the context of societal background.

それが様々なレイヤーで絡み合っていて

It is intertwined in various layers.

私たちが今生きているから

Because we are living now.

それを追い続けるって

To keep pursuing that.

すっごいしんどいことなんだけど

It's really tough, but...

だからといって

That being said

政府が言うような公式発表だけを

Only the official announcements as the government says.

信じて生きていくっていうだけでもなく

It's not just about living by believing.

そういったキュアノンみたいなね

Something like Cure Non.

安直な簡単なストーリーに回収されるわけでもなく

It's not that it gets collected into a simplistic, easy story.

やっぱり自分たちで勉強して

After all, we need to study on our own.

この複雑な社会を認識していくための

To recognize this complex society.

努力をし続ける必要があるんじゃないかなと思って

I think it's necessary to continue putting in effort.

私は日々本を読んだりしてるわけですよ

I read books every day, you know.

皆さんどうですか

How is everyone?

いいと思います

I think it's good.

自分の中でそういった

Within myself, I feel that way.

単純なストーリーに回収されないための

To avoid being caught up in a simple story.

僕らは自然と対峙してるからね

We are confronted by nature, after all.

それはでかいですよね

That's huge, isn't it?

常に自然という圧倒的に強いものと対峙してるから

Because they are constantly confronting the overwhelmingly strong force of nature.

これはちょっとやそっとの人の目的で

This is not something that can be achieved by just anyone.

どうこうできるもんじゃねえなって

It's not something that can be easily changed.

いう感じがしてます

I feel like that's the case.

それはあるかも

That might be the case.

台風を日本に当ててんだとかね

"They're saying that they're aiming the typhoon at Japan."

地震を当ててんだみたいな

It's like I'm predicting the earthquake.

なんかそんな簡単じゃないけどみたいな

It's not that simple, you know?

そんな簡単にコントロールできなくないですか

Isn't it too difficult to control that easily?

っていうのはすごく感じるよね

I really feel that way.

そんな自然って簡単じゃないし

Nature isn't that simple.

解明されてるものでもないと思ってるんで

I don't think it's something that's been clarified.

甲斐さんどうですか

How is Mr. Kai?

自分…

Myself...

なんか常にやっぱり

I feel like it's always something.

さっき言った通りです

As I mentioned earlier.

僕はやっぱり誰が何を言ってるのかっていうことを

I still want to know who is saying what.

僕は多分ずっと考えてますね

I’ll probably be thinking about it forever.

それが僕をぶれるけど

That makes me waver, though.

なんか自分がどこに立ってるのかを

"I wonder where I stand."

気づかせてくれてる気がする

I feel like you're making me realize something.

例えばなんかいろんな言葉って

For example, various words...

人から大体与えられるんですけど

It's mostly given by people.

例えばなんかいろんな言葉って人から大体与えられるんですけど

For example, various words are usually given to us by others.

それって僕は陰謀とか全然関係なく

That has nothing to do with me being involved in any conspiracy at all.

自分の認識すべてについて結構思うんですけど

I think quite a bit about all of my perceptions.

親から言われた言葉とか

Words that were said by my parents, etc.

ショーファームでもいろんな人から言われた言葉とか

Words I've heard from various people at the show farm.

あの時読んだ本のこの言葉とか

Like these words from the book I read back then.

あの時テレビで見たこれとか

Like this that I saw on TV back then.

あの時あそこでちょっと見た広告のあれとか

That thing I saw in an advertisement over there at that time.

いろんなものをすごい吸収して

"Absorbing a lot of different things."

自分の認識って出来上がってるから

My perception is already established.

それがどっから来てんのかなっていうのは

I wonder where that comes from.

結構いつも僕は気にしてますね

I usually care about it quite a bit.

疲れるかもしれないけど

It might be tiring, but...

すごく

Amazing

でもそれがすごく僕自身は自由に

But that makes me feel really free.

それによって自由になってる感覚がすごいあるから

That sense of freedom you feel is really strong because of it.

それは誰かに寄りすぎてないかなっていうのを

I wonder if that's leaning too much towards someone.

チェックしてるっていう意味ですか?

Does it mean you are checking?

そうですそうです

That's right, that's right.

まあ寄りすぎてない

Well, it's not too close.

寄りすぎてるってもいいんですよ別に

It's okay to get too close, you know.

寄りすぎててもいいんですよ別に

It's okay if you're too close, you know.

寄りすぎててもいいんだけど

It's fine if you get too close.

常に誰に寄りすぎてるかとか

Always wondering who I might be getting too close to.

俺今誰々さんのことすごく信じてるとか

I'm really trusting someone right now.

そういうことをちゃんと意識しておかないと

If you don't keep that kind of thing in mind properly...

気づかないうちにやっぱりハマってっちゃうから

Before I know it, I find myself getting hooked again.

また掘り下げていきましょうかね

Shall we dig a little deeper?

また今度の回で

In the next episode.

じゃあこんなところですか

Well, I guess this is it.

ちょっとえみさん編集よろしくお願いしますみたいな感じです

It's kind of like, "Hey Emi, could you please help with the editing?"

全カットになります

It will be a complete cut.

ではみなさん

Well then, everyone.

ショーファームの農民ラジオでした

This was the farmer radio of Show Farm.