Ep.34 学校では教えてくれない西洋服飾史～下着編～

ねえねえマーラー

Hey, hey, Mahler.

今日の下着何色?

What color is your underwear today?

え?タオちゃんどうしたの?

Huh? What's wrong, Tao-chan?

ダウナーズファッションパンチクラブ

Downers Fashion Punch Club

パーソナリティのマーラです

This is Mara, your personality.

キャメです

It's Camel.

タオです

I am Tao.

この番組はお酒を燃料とする

This program uses alcohol as fuel.

ちょっぴりダウナー気質な3人組が

A trio with a slightly downer temperament.

ファッションにまつわるもやもやを

The confusion surrounding fashion.

考えたり

Thinking or considering

共有したり議論したり

Sharing and discussing.

そんなトークプログラムとなっております

It is such a talk program.

えーということで

Well, then.

あのー

Um...

初っ端からセクハラ発言から

Starting off with sexual harassment comments.

始まったんですけども

It has started, but...

今日はねちょっと下着

Today, just a little underwear.

ディグ

Dig

下着について

About underwear

そうそうちょっと調べてきたのよ

Yeah, I did a little research.

そうそうそう

That's right, that's right, that's right.

でなんでまず

So why, first of all...

今回下着をやるかっていうと

Are we going to do underwear this time?

説明すると

To explain

下着って西洋服飾師

Underwear is a Western fashion accessory.

服飾の歴史なんだけど

It's about the history of clothing.

学校でね

At school, you know.

昔文化通ってた時に

When I was attending cultural classes.

服飾の歴史みたいなの

A history of clothing and fashion.

勉強してたのよ

I was studying.

一番最初の導入みたいなのから

Like a very first introduction.

ってやってたんだけど

I was doing that, you know.

面白いんだけど

It's interesting, but...

すっごい雑なのね

It's so messy.

その授業が

That class.

なんか

Somehow

座ってたら単位取れますみたいな

It's like saying you can earn credits just by sitting.

授業で

In class

本当はもっといろいろ聞きたいし

Actually, I want to ask a lot more things.

いろいろ勉強したかったのに

I wanted to study various things.

サラサラサラって進んじゃって

It progresses smoothly and effortlessly.

でなんか

Well, you know...

今になってちょっともったいなかったな

Now I feel it was a bit of a waste.

と思って

I thought so.

でこの間本屋行ったら

So the other day I went to the bookstore.

今手元にある

I have it at hand now.

ヨーロッパ服飾物語

European Fashion Story

っていう内村里奈さんっていう方が

There is a person named Rina Uchimura.

書いた

I wrote.

ヨーロッパの西洋服飾史

History of Western Fashion in Europe

を

wo

書いてる本

The book I am writing.

はい

Yes

じゃあタイトルゴール行きます

Well then, let's go to the title goal.

タオちゃんの

Tao-chan's

学校では教えてくれない

They don't teach you at school.

西洋服飾史シリーズ下着編

Western Fashion History Series: Underwear Edition

イエーイ

Yay!

ということでね

So, with that being said.

はいお願いします

Yes, please.

お願いします

Please.

はいで

Yes.

その参考にした

I referred to that.

ヨーロッパ服飾物語内村里奈さんの

Rina Uchimura from the European Fashion Story.

最初に

Firstly

この人がその

This person is that.

本題に入る前にね

Before getting into the main topic...

この人がなんで

Why this person?

このヨーロッパの服飾集を

This collection of European clothing

こう

Like this

その人が勉強したりとか

That person studies or something like that.

追ってるかっていうのが

Are you following?

すごいいい言葉があるから

Because there are some really good words.

紹介したいんだけども

I want to introduce you to someone.

お願いします

Please.

はい

Yes.

ヨーロッパの服飾を通して

Through European fashion

その時代に生きた人々の

People who lived in that era.

ものの考え方や感じ方

Ways of thinking and feeling.

意識生き方などを読み解く

Interpreting consciousness and ways of living.

という視点を大切にしたいと思っている

I want to value that perspective.

うんうん

Yeah, yeah.

はい

Yes.

というのと

That is to say

服飾は人が身につけることによって

Fashion is something that people wear.

まるで命を得るかのように生きる

Live as if you have gained a new life.

人が服飾を身につけるとき

When a person puts on clothing

服飾は単なるものであることにとどまらず

Fashion goes beyond being merely a material thing.

様々な意味を担うことになる

It will come to carry various meanings.

時に人の感情を揺さぶり

At times, it shakes people's emotions.

高揚させ生き方も変え

Elevate and change your way of life.

そして時には時代を突き動かす力にさえなる

And sometimes, it can even become a force that drives the era forward.

っていうね

You know what I mean.

なんかすごいロマンなんだよ

It's like an amazing romance.

すごい

Amazing

わかるじゃん

I understand, right?

というので

"Because of that" or "So"

あの

Um...

まず下から

First from the bottom.

下着から

From underwear

やろうと思います

I will do it.

この辺もね

This area too, you know.

なんか今の言葉すごい歴史感ある

Somehow, that word has a strong sense of history.

歴史感ある

Has a sense of history.

ある

There is; there are.

聞いたことある

I've heard of it.

突き動かすって

To drive forward.

誰

Who?

和紙

Washi (Japanese paper)

じゃあ和紙

Well then, washi.

かもね

Maybe.

和紙の弟子

Washi apprentice

まあ共通してるんだもんね

Well, it's common after all.

そうだね

That's right.

うん

Yeah.

じゃあ

Well then.

じゃあまずね

Well then, let's start.

下着ね

It's underwear.

うん

Yeah.

下着の歴史

The History of Underwear

うん

Yeah.

からちょっと説明していこうと思うんだけど

I think I'll explain it a little from here.

はい

Yes

なんか今回はまず

Well, this time, first of all,

メインは

The main thing is...

メインは16世紀から17世紀の下着にフォーカスしてお話しようと思うんだけど

I’d like to focus on and talk about undergarments from the 16th to 17th century.

でそもそもまずそれ以前にも下着っていうのは存在したのよ

Well, first of all, underwear already existed before that.

なんかそれ以前の下着っていうのは

Well, that kind of underwear from before...

なんかさこの古代ギリシャンの想像してほしいんだけど

I want you to imagine something about this ancient Greek thing.

あの布を巻きつけてる

I'm wrapping that cloth around.

巻きつけてるテルマイロマンみたいなのが

It’s like a Thermae Romae wrapped around.

まあその昔のほう

Well, that old time.

あれ下着の?

Is that underwear?

あの時はそのあれがもう下着

At that time, that thing was already underwear.

下着兼服みたいな感じじゃん

It feels like a combination of underwear and clothing.

うん

Yeah.

でそっからこうだんだんそのチュニックとかそのスモックっていう

From there, gradually the tunic and the smock...

うん

Yeah.

まあなんか長袖の

Well, it's something like long sleeves.

えー

Uh...

スモックって何?

What is a smock?

スモックはフレヨンしんちゃんが幼稚園で着てる青いやつ

The smock is the blue one that Crayon Shin-chan wears at kindergarten.

頭が青

Blue head.

そうそう

That's right.

幼稚園児

Preschooler

そう幼稚園児が着てるやつがあれがスモック

Yes, the one that kindergarteners wear is called a smock.

へー

Oh really?

だね

That's right.

そうそうそう

That's right, that's right, that's right.

でそれがねえーっとなんか肌着としてそのチュニックとかスモックが

Well, as for that, something like a tunic or smock for undergarments...

チュニックとかスモックが一般化するのが

The generalization of tunics and smocks is...

だいたい13世紀以降からまあ16世紀ぐらいまで続いたのね

It continued from around the 13th century to about the 16th century.

へー

Oh really?

でそっから次の16、17からちょっと下着がだんだんそう変わっていくのね

From there, starting from 16 and 17, the underwear gradually starts to change.

うんうん

Uh-huh.

そうでまずそもそもなんだけどみんなに聞きたいんですけれども

Well, first of all, I want to ask everyone, but...

はい

Yes

あの下着ってなんで着けると思う?っていう

Why do you think people wear that underwear?

あれー

Oh?

僕はっていうか

As for me...

僕は個人的な個人構想

I have a personal individual concept.

個人的なのは汚れねえよね汗とか

Personal items don't get dirty, right? Like sweat and such.

えっワーラリーさんその時下着にこだわりとかある?こういうのがいいとか

Huh, Mr. Warari, do you have any particular preferences when it comes to underwear? Like, do you like something specific?

うんうんあるある一番はあのその下着の服を一番綺麗に見せてたシームレスのものとか

Yes, yes, that's common. The number one is those seamless underwear that made the clothes look the prettiest.

うんうん

Uh-huh.

あっいいねでもやっぱそのファッション好きだから好きだからこその答えがいいなーって思う

Oh, that's good! But I think I want an answer that reflects your love for that fashion, since you like it so much.

うんうんうんうんうんうん

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

答えっぽいよね

It sounds like an answer, doesn't it?

普通にさっきキャメも言ってたけど

Well, as Cam said earlier...

下着をつけるのって

Wearing underwear is...

汚れから体守ったり

Protecting the body from dirt.

清潔でいる

Stay clean.

あとは快適に過ごす

Just spend comfortably.

とかっていう意味合いもあると思うんですけど

I think there is also a meaning that suggests that.

清潔は下着なの?

Is cleanliness underwear?

下着をつけることで自分は清潔でいられるみたいな

Wearing underwear makes me feel like I can stay clean.

下着をつけないと

I need to wear underwear.

そわそわする

To be restless or anxious.

なんだろう

I wonder what it is.

外部から守る

Protect from the outside.

外部から守るみたいな

It seems like it's meant to protect from the outside.

要素だと思うんだけど

I think it's an element.

どうかな

I wonder how it is.

両方あるよね

There are both, right?

外からの力の汚れは

The dirt from external forces

両方

Both

体を清潔に保つみたいな

Like keeping the body clean.

例えばさ

For example, you know.

ヒートテックとかエアリズムとかって

Things like Heattech and Airism.

体を清潔に保つための機能じゃん

It's a function to keep the body clean.

なんか

Somehow

例えばエアリズムだったらさ

For example, if it's Airism...

吸水速乾というか

It's more about quick-drying.

汗を吸って

Absorbing sweat

ベタつきが残らないように

To avoid any stickiness.

清潔に保つための衣類みたいな感じの

It's like clothing for keeping clean.

ニュアンスがあると思う

I think there is nuance.

そういうことか

I see.

思いまして

"I thought."

進みます

I will proceed.

で

and

16世紀17世紀の

16th century and 17th century

舞台がフランスなんだけど

The stage is set in France, but...

今言っていた

I was just saying.

清潔っていう概念が

The concept of cleanliness

私たちが

We are

思うと

When I think about it

思ってるのと全然違う

It's totally different from what I was thinking.

のね

It's like that, huh?

引用します

I will quote.

日本語の清潔という内容を

The content of cleanliness in Japanese.

工事園で確認しますと

I will check at the construction site.

1汚れがなくきれいなこと

1. The state of being clean and free of dirt.

2衛生的なこと

2 Sanitary matters

3人格や品行が

3 personalities and conduct

清く潔いこと

Purity and integrity.

人格

Personality

まあでも清潔ね

Well, it's clean, isn't it?

清潔感ある人が好きとか

I like people who have a sense of cleanliness.

あるじゃん

It's there, isn't it?

そういう感じで

In that kind of feeling.

フランス語で

In French.

清潔にあたる言葉が

Words related to cleanliness

プロプルテなんだけども

It's about Proplute, but...

この言葉が

This word is

1

1

清潔さ

Cleanliness

2きちんとしていること

Being neat and tidy.

きちんとした仕上がり

A neat finish.

3

3

潔白さ

Purity/Integrity

っていうちょっと違うのよ

That's a bit different.

潔白さ

Innocence

えっとね

Umm…

日本語の清潔と

Cleanliness in Japanese

フランス語の清潔の言葉の

The word for cleanliness in French.

何が違うかっていうと

What's different is...

一番は衛生的であるっていうのが

The most important thing is that it's hygienic.

日本語には含まれていて

It is included in Japanese.

フランス語には含まれてないの

It is not included in French.

だからその

So, that...

衛生的であるイコール

Being hygienic means

清潔であるっていうのは

Being clean means that

違う意味だったんだよね

It had a different meaning, didn't it?

違うことだったの

It was something different.

衛生的ってなんか

What does "hygienic" really mean?

どういうこと

What do you mean?

例えば

For example

お風呂に入ること

Taking a bath.

で清潔になる

To become clean.

っていうことがそもそも

That being said, to begin with,

考えられない

Unthinkable.

それは清潔さは結びつかないよねって

That doesn't connect with cleanliness, right?

それよりも例えば

More than that, for example,

きちんと

properly

みなりがきちんとしていること

Being well-groomed.

例えば白いシャツをきちんと着ていること

For example, wearing a white shirt neatly.

が

but

フランス語で言う清潔さ

Cleanliness in French.

になっていたんだよ

It had become that way.

当時は

At that time.

汚れを落とすとかそういう行為ではなく

It's not about actions like removing dirt.

そうそう汚れを落とさなかったの

Yeah, I didn't clean off the dirt.

まとうことで

By wrapping around.

まとうことでの清潔さ

The cleanliness of being adorned.

そうそう

That's right.

だからきちんとした服装をするっていうことが

So, dressing properly means that...

当時の人たちの清潔さの概念だったんだって

It was the concept of cleanliness that people had at that time.

そっかそっか

I see, I see.

きっと何だね

Surely, it's something.

お風呂とかがないからってこと

It's because there is no bath or anything.

そうそう

That's right.

でそれなんだけど

Well, about that...

17世紀の時は

In the 17th century.

パリっていうのは下水が通ってなくて

In Paris, there are no sewers running through.

道の中央を

In the center of the road.

汚物が流れ

Waste flows.

あふれ流れ出してるみたいな感じの

It feels like it's overflowing and spilling out.

汚物が流れ出してるみたいな感じの

It feels like污物 is flowing out.

状態だったんだって

I heard it was in that state.

しかもお風呂に入ったら

Moreover, when I get in the bath,

逆に病気になっちゃうみたいな考え方

It’s a way of thinking that seems to make you sick instead.

だったんだって

I see.

水が汚いのか

Is the water dirty?

水を介して

Through water

皮膚に病原菌が入って

Pathogens enter the skin.

その当時ペストとかがすごい流行ってた

At that time, the plague and other diseases were spreading rapidly.

それがうつるから

Because it can be transmitted.

お風呂は絶対入っちゃだめ

You absolutely must not take a bath.

みたいな

Like a...

入ったら病気になっちゃうからみたいな

It seems like I'll get sick if I go in.

なるほど

I see.

そうそう

That's right.

だから衛生じゃなくて

So it's not hygiene.

礼儀正しく

Polite.

外見を整えていること

Keeping up appearances.

汚れていないこと

Being unsoiled.

装飾をされていることっていうのが

The fact that it is being decorated

清潔の概念だったらしい

It seems to have been the concept of cleanliness.

全然違うの

It's completely different.

面白い

Interesting.

じゃあそれで次に

Well then, let's move on to the next thing.

清潔でいるにはどうすればいいのか

How can one stay clean?

っていうのが

That is to say

礼儀作法書

Book of Etiquette

当時出版されていた

Published at that time.

マナー本みたいなのに掲載されてるんだけど

It's published in a book about manners.

それが

That is it.

白い下着を身につけなさい

Wear white underwear.

っていうことだったんだって

I heard that was the case.

へー

Wow.

で

So,

その

That.

水を返さない清潔

Cleanliness that does not return water.

それが17世紀の頃のヨーロッパの清潔感

That was the sense of cleanliness in Europe during the 17th century.

だったんだって

I see.

それで

So, then.

白い下着を着ると汚れが

Wearing white underwear gets stained.

白い下着が取ってくれるみたいな

It seems like the white underwear will take it off.

考え方

Way of thinking

それも感覚つきれちゃう

That sensation fades away too.

感覚的なことで

In a sensory way

なんというか

How should I put this?

なんだろうな

I wonder what it is.

そもそも白っていうのに

In the first place, it's supposed to be white.

清潔感っていうのを

The sense of cleanliness.

なんとなく感じるじゃん我々も

Don't you feel it somehow, like we do?

なんか

Somehow

なぜそう思うのか分かんないけど

I don't know why I think that, but...

続きね

Let's continue.

さっきまでさ

Until just now.

白い下着を着けることで清潔になれるよね

Wearing white underwear can make you feel clean, right?

みたいな話だったんだけど

It was a story that was like that.

当時の下着がどんなんだったっていうのが

What kind of underwear was it back then?

えっとね

Well, uh...

シュミーズって聞いたことある?

Have you ever heard of a chemise?

シミーズ?

Chemise?

じゃないよ

It's not that.

シミーズだっけ?

Is it a chemise?

それトミーズか

Is that Tomy's?

トミーズはマサ?

Is Tomy's Masa?

わかんない

I don't know.

え?

Huh?

やめよ

Stop it.

シュミーズ聞いたことある?

Have you heard of a chemise?

聞いたことある?

Have you heard of it?

聞いたことあるんだ

I've heard of it.

昔の下着なんだけど

It's old underwear, but...

キャメがいつも着てるような長い丈の

A long length like the one Cam always wears.

グランパみたいな

Like Grandpa.

そうそうそうそう

That's right, that's right!

シャツなんだよね

It's a shirt.

それがシュミーズ

That's a chemise.

それがシュミーズで

That is a chemise.

その当時の人たちの男女兼用の下着みたいな感じでね

It felt like the unisex underwear of that time.

写真

Photo

イラストがね

The illustration, you know.

ほんとこういう

Really like this kind of...

こういう

Like this

襟はないんだけど

There is no collar, though.

へぇー

Oh really?

もうほんと簡単な仕様の

It's really a simple specification.

長袖のシャツ

Long-sleeved shirt

じゃあこれを一番下に着て

Then wear this underneath.

上に服着るってこと?

Are you saying to wear something on top?

そうそうそうそうそう

That’s right, that’s right, that’s right, that’s right.

なのよ

That's how it is.

っていうね

You know what I mean?

なんか今で言うさ

It's like what we'd say now.

そういうブラジャーとかではなくてね

It's not that kind of bra.

今多分その当時の人たちはブラジャーじゃなくて

Probably the people at that time didn't wear bras.

外側でポルセットで締めたりしてたから

I was tightening it with a corset from the outside.

シュミーズが一番肌着として扱われてたんだって

I heard that chemises were treated as the best underwear.

っていうね

You know what I mean.

でその

So, that…

さっき白さの話をしてたんだけど

I was talking about whiteness earlier.

その

That

やっぱ白ければ白いほどいいらしいのね

It seems that the whiter it is, the better it is.

でその白ければ白いほどいいっていうのは

The whiter it is, the better it is.

やっぱその

Well, you know...

白っていうのは高いんだよ

White is expensive.

白い下着を買う子っていうのは

The child who buys white underwear...

コストがすごく高いの

The cost is very high.

でその

So then...

当時ね

Back then.

そのシュミーズの素材っていうのが

The material of that chemise is...

麻だったのね

So it was made of hemp.

でそうそうそうそう

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

でその真っ白い

So that pure white...

オランダ製の

Made in Holland

雨

rain

うん

Yeah.

が一番良いとされてたんだって

I heard that it was considered the best.

オランダなんだね

It's the Netherlands, huh?

そうそうそう

That's right, that's right, that's right.

オランダの

Of the Netherlands

はなんかその水質が

The water quality is somewhat...

すごい良くらしくて

It seems really good.

良いらしくて

Seems to be good.

なんか白にも綺麗に染まって

Somehow, it’s beautifully dyed in white.

っていう

That is to say

それが最高級のやつだったんだよね

That was the top-quality one, you know.

そうそうで

That's right.

まあその白い下着を持ってるってことはさ

Well, the fact that you have those white underwear means that...

もう結局その

Well, in the end, that...

富の象徴みたいになってくるのよ

It’s starting to become a symbol of wealth.

だからその白い下着を持っている

That's why I have those white underwear.

イコールのお金持ちみたいなね

Like a rich person, you know?

感じになるんだけど

It gives me the feeling that...

その

That

みんなでも

Everyone together.

下着ってさ

Underwear, you know.

あの見せないじゃん

They don't show that, do they?

普通は

Usually

見せる方法じゃん

It's a way to show it.

そうそう見せないんだけど

I don't usually show it, but...

その豊かさを

That richness.

アピールしたいすぎて

I want to appeal too much.

当時の貴族たちは

The nobles of that time

あのね

You know,

服に切れ込みを入れ始める

I start making cuts in the clothes.

その

That

めちゃめちゃファッション

Super fashionable.

そうめちゃめちゃファッションなので

It's really fashionable.

なんかこの襟元とか

It seems like this collar or something.

なんかダメージジーンズとかあんじゃん

Isn't there something like damaged jeans?

今でも

Even now

とか

"Etc."

ちょっとカットして

Just a little cut, please.

そこから白い下着をちょい見せする

From there, they slightly reveal white underwear.

へー

Heh.

そう

That's right.

っていうのが

That's what it means.

当時は

At the time

流行ってたんですよ

It was popular.

当時の肖像画とかを見ると

When you look at portraits from that time,

そういう

That's how it is.

ほんと

Really.

でもそうやってね

But in that way, you know...

本当にこの切れ込みを服にバーって入れて

"Really just putting a cut like this in the clothes."

ちょっとずつ出すみたいなのがね

It seems like they're going to release it bit by bit.

すごい当時は

It was amazing at that time.

こいつ白着てるみたいになってた

It looked like this guy was wearing white.

あそうこいつ白いみたいな

Oh, this guy looks white.

白いみたいなね

It looks like white, right?

白さが正義みたいになってたみたいなね

It’s like whiteness became synonymous with justice.

で逆に

On the contrary,

あの黒い服も人気があったの

That black outfit was also popular.

あそうなの

Oh, I see.

なんでこれ分かるの

How do you know this?

えー

Ehh?

カウンターカルチャー

Counterculture

あ違う違う

Ah, no, no.

マーラの

Mara's

カウンターカルチャー

Counterculture

違うマーラの好きなカウンターカルチャーじゃないんだけど

It's not the kind of counterculture that Mara likes.

あの

Um...

黒い服を着ると

When I wear black clothes

白い下着が目立つから

Because the white underwear stands out.

なるほどね

I see.

そうそうコントラストで目立つから

That's right, it stands out because of the contrast.

そうだから

That's why.

そのなんだろうね

I wonder what that is.

その下着以外でも

Not just that underwear.

その自分の肌の白さ

The whiteness of one's own skin.

うん

Yeah.

っていうのも清潔感の象徴になったのよ

It became a symbol of cleanliness.

へー

Oh really?

その白ければ白いほど

The whiter it is, the whiter it becomes.

この肌がこう清潔で美しいみたいな

This skin is so clean and beautiful.

美白

Whitening

そうそう美白文化だったのが

Yes, it was a culture of skin whitening.

価値観だったんだよね

It was a value system, you know.

そうだから

That's why.

その

That.

つけぼくろ

beauty mark

うん

Yeah.

とか

and so on

あーそれも

Ah, that too.

気を立たせる

to raise one's spirits

そうそうそうそう

That's right, that's right, that's right, that's right.

白さを

whiteness

白さをつけ

Add whiteness.

気を立たせるために

To motivate oneself.

みんな

Everyone

このほくろを

This mole.

つけたり

Attach or put on.

とか

"and so on" or "etc."

黒いリボン

Black ribbon

うん

Yeah.

を手首に

On the wrist

巻いたりしてたんだって

I heard you were rolling it up.

いろんなことをしてたんだ

I was doing various things.

そうそう

That's right.

試行錯誤でをね

Trial and error.

繰り返して

Repeat it.

いたんだって

I heard there was someone there.

えー

Uh...

っていう話ね

That's the story.

でこれはね今まで

And this is, until now,

宮廷の貴族の

court nobles

話を

Let's talk.

うん

Yeah.

しました

I did it.

まあ白が流行ってたよって

Well, white was in style.

でこっからその

"From here on out, that..."

庶民

Common people or the masses.

うん

Yes.

そうで

That's right.

その

That

復職史ってさ

It's about the history of returning to work, right?

そもそも庶民の

In the first place, the common people...

ファッションの話出てこない

There's no talk about fashion.

じゃん

Ta-da!

その

That

宮廷の

of the court

例えばさ

For example, you know...

ゴテゴテした

Overly ornate.

さあ

Well then.

ザ王様みたいな

Like a king.

はい

Yes

の話が出てこないんだけど

The subject isn't coming up.

ここから庶民の話

Here begins the tale of common folks.

うん

Yeah.

するね

I'll do it.

で庶民は実際今

The common people are actually now.

何を着ていたかっていうのをね

What I was wearing, you know.

えーと今から説明したいんだけど

Um, I would like to explain now.

うん

Yeah.

その

That.

資料がね

The materials are...

遺体聴書なのね

It's a hearing for the deceased, isn't it?

その死んだ人の

Of that dead person.

そうそう

That's right.

聴書

Audiobook

新編

New edition

そうそうそうそう

Exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly.

だからファッションを読み解く

So let's decipher fashion.

当時の普通の庶民が何を着てたかっていうのを

What ordinary common people were wearing at that time.

この内田さん

This Uchida-san.

筆者の内田さんがやってるんだよね

It's done by the author, Mr. Uchida.

でその庶民の服装の

Well, the clothing of the common people...

まあその文献がないから

Well, since there is no literature on that.

だからその

So, that...

実際にこの人は

This person actually is

フランスのリオンっていうところの

It's a place called Lyon in France.

川で溺死した人

A person who drowned in the river.

うん

Yeah.

の100年分の資料を

100 years' worth of資料

みんな何着て死んでんのみたいなのを

"I'm curious about what everyone is wearing when they die."

調べた

I investigated.

で

So/And then

そんなにほんとスポットライト当てて

You're really putting the spotlight on it, huh?

来られなかったから

Because I couldn't come.

何も情報が残ってなかった

There was no information left at all.

そうそうだからその

Right, so that...

遺体聴書がほんと一番リアルだ

The autopsy report feels the most real.

本当に来てた

You really came.

で結構詳細に書かれてたんだって

It seems that it was written in quite a lot of detail.

うん

Yeah.

こう何素材のパンツで

These pants are made of some kind of material.

帽子はこんなんで

This is what the hat looks like.

何素材のベストを2枚着ていて

I'm wearing two vests made of what material.

下着はこれこれで

This is the underwear.

こういう刺繍が入っていたみたいなのが結構こう

It seems like there was quite a bit of embroidery like this.

細かく書かれてるらしいの

It seems that it is written in detail.

で

So.

えっとね

Well then,

その溺死した人

The drowned person.

1700年から1790年の間に

Between 1700 and 1790.

300人ぐらいの人が

About 300 people.

リオンの川で溺死してるんだけど

I'm drowning in the Lion River.

あのね

You know,

その人たちが

Those people

大体

Generally

約7割が

About 70%.

朝のトワール

Morning towel

トワール

Tulle

そう

Yes.

トワール

Towel

トワールって

What is a toile?

あれあれ

Oh dear.

うちらが

We are

学校で使ってたやつ

The one I used at school.

そうそううちらが学校で使ってたやつ

Yeah, that's the one we used at school.

ガッサガサの

Rough and coarse

あの刈り縫い屋さんとかにあるのよ

It's found at places like that tailoring shop.

えぇ、あの刈り縫い屋さんとかにあるのよ

Yes, it's something that can be found at those tailoring shops.

仮縫いをするときに使うトワル生地

Muslin fabric used for making a fitting sample.

テスト用の生地だよね?

It's a fabric for testing, right?

そうそうそう

That's right, that's right, that's right.

本番の生地で作るマイテストでね

I'll make my test with the actual fabric.

トワルっていう生地を使って我々はね

We use a fabric called twill.

服飾学校時代やってたんだけどそのトワルの生地

I did it during my time at fashion school, but that fabric for the toile.

なんで?

Why?

お金がないから

Because I don't have any money.

そうそうそう

That's right, that's right, that's right.

だし色も白じゃなくて赤褐色のトワルだったんだって

They said the fabric was not white but a reddish-brown color.

赤褐色っていうのも色が濃くなるほど

The reddish-brown color becomes more intense as it deepens.

悪質の粗悪な麻になってると思って

I think it's become a poorly made, malicious product.

そのトワルはどういう形だったの?

What shape was that toile?

形は大体一緒

The shape is mostly the same.

さっき言ってたシュミーズの形

The shape of the chemise you were talking about earlier.

それが下着

That is underwear.

そうそうそうそうっていう感じだったんだって

It felt like, "That's right, that's right, that's right."

だから全然貴族とは全然違うね

So it's completely different from being a noble.

アリマなんだけどっていう感じでした

It felt like I was saying "It's Arima."

で

So

あっ

Ah.

IKKOさん面白い話があって

IKKO has an interesting story.

18世紀の哲学者ルソーね

The philosopher Rousseau of the 18th century, huh?

ルソー

Rousseau

ルソーってどんな人だっけ?

What kind of person was Rousseau?

いやルソーは僕もあんまだけど

Yeah, I'm not really a fan of Rousseau either.

自然に帰れっていう風に唱えた

I chanted as if to say, "Return to nature."

何?人間が?

What? A human?

猿になれみたいなこと?

Like, become a monkey?

そういうことではなくて

It's not that.

人間の社会で起こってる不平等が

The inequality happening in human society

今の文明社会についてあるみたいな

It seems to be about the current civilized society.

文明反対ってこと?

Are you saying you're against civilization?

うんを批判して

Criticize luck.

やっぱり何もない状態が人間って自然だよねって

After all, being in a state of having nothing is what feels natural for humans, right?

ヒッピーだね

You're a hippie.

幸せだよねみたいな

It's like saying, "I'm happy, right?"

そういうのを唱えた人

The person who proclaimed such a thing.

でなんかでもその自然状態っていうのは

But somehow that natural state is...

本当に実際にない

It really doesn't exist.

文明が発展してるから

Because civilization is developing.

そういう状態はないけど

There is no such state.

そういう視点を持ってこうぜみたいな

Let's have that kind of perspective.

唱えた人があって

There is someone who recited.

へぇー

Oh really?

その中で人民主権を唱えた

Among them, the claim of popular sovereignty was made.

そっかはいはいはい

I see, okay, okay, okay.

なるほどね

I see.

いやなんか薄いなんか

No, it's kind of thin or something.

18世紀ってあれ

That's the 18th century, right?

フランス革命の日の

On the day of the French Revolution

あった直前だから

Because it was right before it happened.

だから人民主義とか

So, things like people's democracy...

絶望の前はずっとルイ・ナンセイとかが

Before despair, there was always Louis Nansei and others.

絶対王政みたいな拳突き上げてたんだけど

It was like a raised fist reminiscent of absolute monarchy.

それか分かった分かった

Got it, got it.

だからザーザーしたんだよねその時代としては

That's why it was so chaotic for that era.

なるほどね

I see.

フランス革命の前に

Before the French Revolution

でまぁそのルソーに関する話なんだけど

Well, about that story regarding Rousseau...

ルソーはね下着を42枚盗まれた

Rousseau had 42 pieces of underwear stolen.

誰に?

To whom?

下着泥棒に

To the underwear thief

なんだって

What do you mean?

ルソーだから

Because it's Rousseau.

ルソーはだからその

Rousseau is, therefore, that...

いい下着を持って

I have good underwear.

高級品だからね

Because it's a luxury item.

高級下着を持ってたけどその時の

I had luxury underwear, but at that time...

ルソーの告白大発刊に

The grand publication of Rousseau's Confessions.

下着を42枚盗まれたということを

I was told that 42 pieces of underwear were stolen.

述べているんだけれども

I'm stating that...

そんなのを出してるんだ

They're putting out something like that.

なんかエステみたいな

It feels like a spa or something.

なんかルソーね面白いの

There's something interesting about Rousseau.

なんかそういう私全然分かんないけど思想とか

I don't really understand things like that, but ideas and thoughts...

なんかちょっとお茶目っぽい感じがしてたので

I felt like you had a bit of a mischievous vibe.

でちょっと割愛するかもしれないけど

I might skip over it a bit.

ちょっと文章読むねルソーの告白の

I'll read a bit of Rousseau's Confessions.

聞きたい

I want to hear.

私の下着はベネチア時代の残り物だが

My underwear is leftover from the Venetian era, but...

上等で数の多く特に愛着していた

I was particularly attached to the high quality and large quantity.

清潔を求めたあまり贅沢に流れた

In seeking cleanliness, it ended up becoming extravagant.

かなり金がかかった

It cost a lot of money.

ところが誰かのおかげで

However, thanks to someone.

こうした気遣いから解放されることになった

I have been liberated from such concerns.

そこには洗濯したばかりの私の下着が

There were my freshly washed underwear.

そっくり干してあった

It was completely dried out.

それがすっかり持っていかれたのだ

That was completely taken away.

その中には私の上等のリネルジのシャツ

Among them is my fine linen shirt.

42枚も含まれていた

It included 42 pieces.

これが私の下着衣類の主なものだった

These are the main items of my underwear.

とにかくこの事件のおかげで

Anyway, thanks to this incident,

私の贅沢な下着道楽は止み

My luxurious lingerie indulgence has stopped.

それ以後はごく普通の全体と釣り合った下着が

Since then, it has been just ordinary underwear that balances everything out.

しか持たないようになったのである

It has come to be that I only have this.

ルソー告白

Confessions of Rousseau

っていう言葉を残しているのよね

It's a phrase that has been left behind, you know.

だから42枚っていうところから

So it's about the 42 sheets.

異常な量じゃん

That's an abnormal amount, isn't it?

当時その清潔さがどれだけ求められたか

How much cleanliness was sought after at that time.

っていうのがやっぱり分かるよね

I guess that's really understandable.

みんな多分1週間分くらいなんだけど

Everyone probably has about a week's worth or so.

私は持ってるの

I have it.

42枚も持ってる?

Do you have as many as 42?

持ってない

I don't have it.

それを何日何回も変えてるのかなっていうのを思ったよね

I wondered how many times and on what days they keep changing that.

さっきの話だとやっぱり水が汚くて洗えないし

As we talked about earlier, the water is dirty and can't be washed.

とにかく洗えないからいっぱい持っとく

Anyway, I’ll just hold onto a lot of them since I can't wash them.

あーそういうことか

Ah, I see.

確かにそれもあるかもね

That might be true, too.

水にできるだけ触れないようにして

Try to avoid touching water as much as possible.

はいっていうところで

Well then, that's where we are.

清潔さイコール白みたいな話を今までしてきたんだけども

I've been talking about cleanliness being equal to whiteness until now.

ここからはね

From here on out

今まで内側に着ていた下着が

The underwear that I have been wearing inside until now.

どんどん表着になっていったのね

You were gradually becoming more open, weren't you?

だんだんだんだん

Little by little, gradually.

フランスで?

In France?

そうそうフランスで

Oh right, in France.

っていうのもさ

The thing is, you see...

もともとさっき話したように

As I mentioned earlier.

上着の服に切れ込みスラッシュを入れて

Make a slash in the jacket.

ちょっと見せるっていうのがあったって言ってたじゃん

You said there was something you wanted to show me, right?

うんうんうんうんうん

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

それがどんどんどんどん前に出て きちゃうの加速してマリーアントワ

It's pushing forward more and more, accelerating like Marie Antoinette.

ネットの時代には18世紀くらいかな シュミーズドレスってのが生まれ

In the age of the internet, it was around the 18th century that the chemise dress was born.

ちゃうのね下着ドレスになっちゃう のでマリーアントワネットはその

It's different; it turns into an underwear dress, so Marie Antoinette does that.

当時のファッションリーダーみたいな 感じになってたんだけど結構どの

It felt like I was becoming a fashion leader at the time, but it was quite...

文献見ても当時のファッション リーダーマリーアントワネット

Even looking at literature, the fashion leader of the time was Marie Antoinette.

ですってなってるんだけどそれが すごく衝撃だったんだってなぜ

I heard that it was really shocking, but why?

そのシュミーズドレスを下着姿 で肖像画を残してるのね彼女は

She is leaving a portrait in that chemise dress while in her underwear.

っていうことがあって大批判されて たんだよねでもその彼女の死後

There was a lot of criticism about that, but after her death...

シュミーズドレスは大流行りする っていうのがありで

The chemise dress is going to be very popular.

死後なんだね

It's after death, isn't it?

そうそう死後すごいマリーアントワ ネットのファッションが大流行

Yes, yes, after death, Marie Antoinette's fashion from the internet becomes a huge trend.

して進化化されてるみたいなことが

It seems like it's evolving and changing.

あるんだよね

It exists, you know.

すごい突発的なタブーとされてた ことをやったからすごくみんな

Because I did something that was considered a tremendous taboo, everyone was really surprised.

も憧れの対象になったんだよね

It became an object of admiration, didn't it?

かっこいいよねでもなんかそういう ちょっとチャレンジなところが

It's cool, but there's something about that challenging aspect.

ね

Right?

でヨーロッパ近世17世紀18世紀の 白い下着は建前上人には見せない

In 17th and 18th century Europe, white underwear was not shown to people as a matter of principle.

ものでありながら清潔さと豊かさ をアピールするために表にどんどん

While being a product, it increasingly emphasizes cleanliness and richness on the surface.

見せるものってなってきたのね

It has become something to show, hasn't it?

でこれ日本でも同じようなことが あって平安時代では内側に着るよう

In Japan, a similar thing happened, and during the Heian period, it was worn on the inside.

であった小袖っていう着物があるん だけど12人の下に着るなんか小袖

There is a kimono called "deatta kosode," but it's a kind of kosode worn under 12 people.

の逆が振袖みたいな感じなんだけど 浴衣とかってさこの肘から手首

It's the opposite of a furisode, but yukata or something like that, you know, from the elbow to the wrist.

にかけてさベローンって長方形 長くたってたんだよね

It was a long rectangle that stretched out, you know.

それが普通のロンティーぐらいの 太さ袖幅が小袖

It's about the thickness of a regular long-sleeve tee, with narrow sleeves.

ジンベエみたいな小袖がもともと 12人の中に着るインナーだった

The kimono-like inner garment resembling Jinbei was originally worn by the 12 people.

けど鎌倉自体には外着としてなる ようになったり下着が表着になる

However, in Kamakura, outerwear has started to become more common, and underwear has become outerwear.

みたいな現象は

Such phenomena are

どこでも

Anywhere

昔からあって

It has been around since ancient times.

で例えばシャネルの中身がこう やってるんだけどその下着が表着

For example, the contents of Chanel are like this, but that lingerie is the outerwear.

になるみたいな現象はどこでも 昔からあって例えばシャネルの

It seems like a phenomenon that has existed everywhere since ancient times, for example, Chanel's.

中身が表着になるみたいな現象は どこでも

It seems that the phenomenon of the contents becoming the outer garment happens everywhere.

昔からあって

It has existed since ancient times.

knitting Maiselのジャージースーツ とかもそう思って

I think the same about the knitting Maisel's jersey suit.

って

"Well then" or "I mean" (depending on context)

だんだんだんだん

Gradually, gradually.

揺れていく

Swaying.

変わっていく

Changing.

だよね

That's right.

白い下着ってあんま着なくない

Don't you hardly wear white underwear?

と思って

I think.

白い下着がいい

I like white underwear.

欲しいと思って着ることないな

I don’t really want to wear it.

って思ってさ

I was thinking that.

私今日白い下着着てきたのね

I wore white underwear today.

わざと

On purpose.

この収録のために

For this recording.

どういう気持ちになるかってこと

It's about what kind of feelings you would have.

やっぱり緊張感が出る

After all, it brings a sense of tension.

出るの?

Are you going out?

っていうね

You know what I'm saying?

白い下着着て思ったっていう

"I thought about wearing white underwear."

さっきのなんだっけ

What was that from earlier?

プロプリティ

Property

に繋がる

Connects to

清潔さきちんとしていることみたいな

It seems like something related to cleanliness and being tidy.

感じがちょっと分かる

I can somewhat understand the feeling.

きちんとしようって

Let's get things in order.

やっぱ肌で

After all, it's about the skin.

直接着るものだから

Because it's something you wear directly.

それがさ

Well, you see...

白い色っていうものを

The thing called the color white.

着ることで結構

It's fine by wearing it.

感じた今回

This time I felt.

今日

Today

え?

Huh?

今日初めて着たんだけど

I wore it for the first time today.

へぇ

Oh really?

そうそう

That's right.

っていう感じ

It feels like that.

なんだよね

That's right.

OKじゃあちょっと最後に

Okay, then just a little at the end.

まあその現代

Well, that modern...

現代の下着の話をしようかなと思うんだけど

I was thinking of talking about modern underwear.

まあ現代の下着の歴史をちょっと喋ると

Well, if I talk a little about the history of modern underwear...

長くなっちゃうんだけど

It's going to be lengthy, but...

あの

Um...

その現

The current state.

えっとね

Um, well...

その下着イコール白みたいな

It's like that underwear is equal to white.

イメージも揺れてきて

The image is also shaking.

白着ないじゃんみたいな話になったんだけど

It became a conversation like, "You don't wear white, do you?"

そうそうそう

That's right, that's right, that's right.

で

So

この

This

現代のそのカラフルの下着のタイトー

Modern colorful tight underwear.

っていうのは

What that means is

その明らかに

That is obvious.

その親しい誰かの目に触れることを前提としているのではないかっていうのを

Isn't it based on the assumption that it will come to the attention of that close someone?

筆者の内村さんから

From the author, Ms. Uchimura.

うん

Yeah.

内村さんが言っているんだよね

Uchimura-san is saying that.

そうそう

That's right.

で

So.

え?どう思う?

Huh? What do you think?

なんか

Something.

その下着を見せるっていうカルチャーもさ

The culture of showing that underwear as well.

なんか

Something.

最近のそのカルバンクラインの下着を

Recently, that Calvin Klein underwear.

こうチラッと腰から見せたりとかもさ

For example, showing a glimpse of the waist like this.

してるじゃん?なんかそういう感じでね

You're doing it, right? It's kind of like that.

なんかそういうのもさ

I guess something like that too.

その昔々のその

Once upon a time, long ago, that...

衣服の着れ込みからさ

From wearing clothes to...

出してたの

I had put it out.

時代と繋がってくるのかなみたいな

I wonder if it's connected to the times.

のも

"of"

んー

Hmm...

なんかわかんない今の下着をさ

I don't really understand this current underwear.

結構見せるファッションっていうか

It's more of a fashion that really shows off.

うんあれなんだと思うね

Yeah, I wonder what that is.

あれはなんか下着もファッションの一部なの?

Isn't that like underwear is also a part of fashion?

あーあっ分かったそう

Ah, I understand now.

あっそうだそうそうなんかそれでさやっぱその

Ah, right, right, so about that...

下着とそのファッションの境界線が

The boundary between underwear and fashion.

あいまいになってるんだって

It's becoming ambiguous.

うんうん

Uh-huh.

あいまいになってるよね

It's becoming ambiguous, isn't it?

そうそう

That's right.

あっそうそうなんかあれだ

Ah, that's right, it's something like that.

ブラトップ

Bra top

うんはい

Yeah, okay.

そう最近ブラトップめっちゃ着るんだけど

Lately, I've been wearing bralettes a lot.

てかブラトップめっちゃ着てる人多いじゃん

A lot of people are wearing bra tops, right?

多い

Many

でなんかそのブラトップが市民権を

So that bralette has gained mainstream acceptance.

ここ2年3年ぐらいで急速にこう

In the last two to three years, this has rapidly changed.

得てきている感じがする

I feel like I am gaining something.

うん今着てる

Yeah, I'm wearing it now.

だって今さなんかそのシアのものの下に

Because right now, under Shia's things or something...

ブラトップとかさ

Like a bra top, you know?

うんうんうんうん

Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.

キャミソールとかあともうなんか

Like camisoles and then something else.

お腹出た感じがするからね

I feel like my stomach is sticking out.

お腹出た感じのブラトップみたいなの

It looks like a bralette that makes your stomach look bigger.

うんうんうん

Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.

着るじゃん普通じゃん

You wear it, right? It's normal, isn't it?

そうそうなんかちょっと前まで

Yeah, just a little while ago...

てかちょっと前までさこのシアすら

Well, until just a little while ago, even this Shia...

結構敬遠されてた感じがするの

I feel like it was quite avoided.

チャレンジだったり

It was a challenge.

そうそうでも今みんな着てるじゃん

Yeah, but everyone is wearing it now.

ルミネ行ったらどこも出してるし

If you go to Lumine, they have it available everywhere.

ルミネ行ったら大体どこもブラトップ

When I go to Lumine, most places have bra tops.

売ってるみたいな感じでさ

It feels like they are selling it.

えなんかすげーなーって

Wow, that’s amazing!

うん

Yeah.

なんかなんでだろうね

I wonder why that is.

なんだろうね

I wonder what it is.

まあそのファッションと下着が

Well, that fashion and underwear...

この境界線がなくなってきてるのが

This boundary line is starting to disappear.

なんでかってことで

The reason why.

そうそうそうそうそう

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

ただのセルフがあるもん

There are just selfies.

なんか結構

Somehow quite a bit.

なるほど

I see.

なんか解放事故の解放じゃないけど

It's not exactly an incident of liberation, but...

うーん

Hmm.

なんかさらけ出す視点感があるもん

It feels like there's a perspective of exposing something.

うんうんうん

Uh-huh.

ブラトップって一番にあるもん

A bralette is the most basic item.

結構ドキドキするけどね

It's quite thrilling, though.

そう

Yes.

見てて人を

Watching people.

うんうん

Uh-huh.

そうなんか今後どうなるのかなと思っているの

I wonder how things will be in the future.

なんかどんどんそうやってファッションしたりと

It seems like you're increasingly doing things like that with fashion.

服と自分の体との境界線がなくなってきてるから

Because the boundary between my clothes and my body is disappearing.

なんかねそういうところで

Well, in places like that...

すごい新しい可能性を感じるから

Because I feel an incredible new possibility.

なんか新しい服とか出てきそうだなと思って

I thought something like new clothes was going to come out.

すごい楽しみだなと思って

I'm really looking forward to it.

うん

Yeah.

っていう感じ?

Is that how it feels?

わかるかもしれないちょっと

I might understand it a little.

えーっていう感じでした

It felt like "huh."

はい

Yes

下着編

Underwear Edition

はい

Yes

お疲れさまでした

Thank you for your hard work.

ありがとうございます

Thank you.

はい

Yes

アフタートーク

After talk

下着ね

Underwear, huh?

うん

Yeah.

どうだった?下着

How was it? Underwear.

うん

Yeah.

やって

Do it.

やっぱなんかあの数年前のさユニクロとマメのコラボ

That collaboration between Uniqlo and Mame a few years ago was something else.

あれがやっぱ下着と服の境界線をすごく攻めてたものだったじゃん

That really pushed the boundaries between underwear and clothing, didn't it?

わかる

I understand.

今メルカリってすごい高くなってる

Mercari is really expensive right now.

ほんと?

Really?

うん

Yeah.

なんかあれがすごい概念変えたなって思う

I think that really changed the concept.

すごいよね

That's amazing, isn't it?

すごい影響力だった

It had a huge influence.

うん

Yeah.

わかる

I understand.

うん

Yeah.

まあね新しい服だよね

Well, it's a new outfit, right?

そういって

Saying that

うん

Yeah.

なるほどねなんかよりその下着も体の一部化してる気がする

I see, it feels like that underwear has become a part of the body in a way.

体の一部化?

Body partification?

うん

Yeah.

だからすごいさなんかレースとかその 装飾とかじゃなくって

So it's amazing, not just the race or the decorations.

うんうんうん

Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh.

なんかもう馴染むヌードカラーとか

Somehow, it's a nude color that just fits in.

あー

Ahh.

つらっとした素材とか

Such textures or materials.

うん

Yeah.

なんかそういうなんか体にいかになじむ かっていうところが

It’s like how it somehow conforms to the body.

なんか下着って

It seems like underwear.

確かになんかさ

Sure, something like that.

ウェルネス系のやつ多いよね

There are a lot of wellness-related things, aren’t there?

インスタの広告とか見てても

Even when looking at ads on Instagram...

なんか

Something.

レッシーな感じのやつより

Rather than something that feels flashy.

私の

My

あれかもしれないんだけど

It might be that.

なんかこうもうちょっと

I feel like it could use a little more.

なんだろうね

I wonder what it is.

体に沿ったとか

Something that fits along the body or conforms to the body.

あんまり装飾じゃなくて

Not too much decoration.

なんかリブ素材とか

Something like ribbed material.

天竺の素材とかっていう優しいタッチの

A gentle touch like the materials from Tenjiku.

この下着

This underwear

ブランドっていうのがすごい増えてるな

There are a lot more brands now, aren't there?

って思うね

I think so.

逆にさ

On the contrary.

メンズのさ

For men.

レースのパンツがなんか

Something about the race pants.

あったよ

I found it.

あれどうなんだろうね

I wonder what that’s all about.

あのねうちの社長が買ってた

You know, our company president bought it.

なんかその興味本位でさ

"It's kind of just out of curiosity."

買って

Buy it.

チクチクする

It feels prickly.

チクチクするって言ってたわ

She said it was prickly.

気持ちは別によくなかったし

My feelings weren't really good either.

完全になんだろう

What could it completely be?

ね

Hey.

なんとファッションなんだ

What a fashion statement!

ファッションだった

It was fashion.

でも確かに

But certainly

メンズの下着っていうのは

Men's underwear is...

ファッション性が

Fashionability

あまり遊び幅ないさそうだよね

It seems like there isn't much room for play.

なんか

Somehow

レディスってすっごい下着

Ladies' lingerie is really amazing.

なんかその形とかってめっちゃ

It's really something about that shape.

いろいろあるじゃん

There are various things, aren't there?

バリエーションがね

There are variations, you know.

水着もそうだけどさ

It's not just the swimsuit, you know.

だから

So.

ワコールのチャレンジ

Wacoal's Challenge

ちょっとしたね面白い

It's a little interesting.

あれ

That.

ね

Hey.

っていうことで

So, that's how it is.

はい

Yes

じゃあ

Well then.

最後に

Finally

皆さんもよかったら白い下着つけてみて

If you'd like, everyone, try wearing white underwear.

あの清潔感についてね

About that sense of cleanliness.

一度考えてみるということも

It might be worth considering once.

もしみたらいいかなとか

I wonder if it would be good to see it.

うんいいね

Yeah, that sounds good.

検討しますね

I'll think about it.

近寄らせていただきますね

I will get closer to you.

はいありがとうございました

Yes, thank you very much.

ありがとうございました

Thank you very much.

じゃあね

See you later.

またね

See you later.

番組の感想やファッションに関するご指摘をお聞かせください

Please share your impressions of the program and any comments regarding fashion.

質問取り上げてほしいテーマなど

Topics you would like to address or questions you would like to discuss.

どんな内容でも大歓迎です

Any content is welcome!

お問い合わせは

Inquiries are.

全てこの小文字で

everything in these lowercase letters

dfpunchclub

dfpunchclub

atmarkgmail.comまでお願いいたします

Please contact me at atmarkgmail.com.

はい

Yes

それではまた次回の配信でお会いしましょう

Well then, let's meet again in the next broadcast.

ここまでのお相手は

Until now, the partner has been...

ダウナーズファッションパンチクラブ

Downers Fashion Punch Club

tao

tao

came

came

malaでした

It was mala.

またねー

See you later!

さっきと言う

Say it again.

急な明るさ

Sudden brightness

見てみる

Take a look.

暑いな

It's hot, isn't it?