#11 雑談会会津でle Tonneauに参加してきた！【後編】

わっしょーい【農業従事者】

独身農家の独り言～事業承継とそれに付随する何か～

前回からの続きです

This is a continuation from the last time.

前回をお聞きでない方は前回を聞いてからこちらを聞いていただけると嬉しいです

If you haven't heard the previous one, I would be happy if you could listen to it before listening to this one.

ではスタートです

Well, let's get started.

前半はですね、室越さんのそういったキューバだったり

In the first half, Mr. Murokoshi will talk about Cuba and other topics like that.

今までやってきたフィールドワークのお話が主題ですね

The main topic is about the fieldwork that I have been doing so far.

後半に関してはいよいよテーマであった人類学に関する歴史の総論といえばいいですかね

As for the latter half, I suppose it can be described as a general overview of the history of anthropology, which was the theme.

そういったことをお話ししていただきました

Thank you for discussing such matters.

まずですね、人類学っていうのが大きく2つに分かれているというところが

First of all, anthropology is largely divided into two parts.

まず

First

面白かったところですかね

I guess it's the interesting parts.

室越さんがやっている、研究されていた方がですね

Mr. Murakoshi is the one who has been conducting research.

分類としては文化人類学または社会人類学という方法でして

It is categorized as either cultural anthropology or social anthropology.

それとは別に自然人類学っていうんだったかな

Aside from that, I think it's called natural anthropology.

そういった分野があるそうなんですね

I hear there are fields like that.

自然人類学

Anthropology of Nature

自然人類学って聞いて、辻里さんなんかイメージ湧きます?

When you hear "natural anthropology," do you have any image of Tsujisato?

いや、全然ピンとこないな

No, not at all. I don't get it.

生物学的に人類の違いを見るとかそんな感じ?

Are you talking about looking at the differences among humans from a biological perspective?

あー結構近いですね

Ah, that's actually quite close.

自然人類学っていうのは

What is called natural anthropology?

人を動物として見たとき

When viewing people as animals.

ホモサピエンスとしての特性を調べる学問だそうで

It seems that it is a study that examines the characteristics of Homo sapiens.

だから詳しくジャンルで言うと

So to be more specific in terms of genre...

考古学とかあと生態学だとか

Archaeology and also ecology.

なるほど

I see.

そういうのが自然人類学っていうのに当たるそうで

It seems that such things fall under what is called natural anthropology.

人類学の始まりっていうのが

The beginning of anthropology is...

こっちの自然人類学の方だったそうですね

It seems that this is the field of natural anthropology.

こっちが先なんだ

This comes first.

そうだそうです

That's right.

初期の人類学だとなんか大真面目に頭の大きさだとか

In early anthropology, there was some serious focus on things like head size.

鼻の高さだとか

Like the height of the nose.

腕の長さだとかっていうのを

Things like the length of the arm.

本当に一人一人調べていって

"Really investigating each and every one."

真剣にそれを比較して研究してるっていうのがメインだったそうです

It seems that the main focus was seriously comparing and researching it.

ホモサピエンスと他の人類と比べていくって感じかな

I guess it feels like comparing Homo sapiens to other humans.

ホモサピエンスの中でもその個体差とか

Among Homo sapiens, the individual differences and such.

はいはいはい

Yes, yes, yes.

なんかその地域とかによる特性だったりとか

It's something related to the characteristics of that region or area.

両方やるかな

I might do both.

そうですね

That's right.

例えば考古学の分野だと

For example, in the field of archaeology.

縄文人だとか

Such as the Jomon people.

弥生人だとか

Things like the Yayoi people.

あとホモサピエンス以外の

Also, other than Homo sapiens.

類人猿

Hominids

人類に近い

Close to humanity.

その種類の

That kind of

まあ骨だったりとかから

Well, it might be from bones and such.

脳の大きさだとか頭の大きさだとか身長だとかっていうのを調べてたそうですね

It seems that you were researching things like brain size, head size, and height.

だから人類

So humanity.

いろんな人類の中での比較みたいな

It's like a comparison among various types of humanity.

そうですね

That's right.

で結構わかりやすかったのは

What was quite easy to understand was

あの肌の色ですかね

Is it that skin color?

あのまあよく言う白人黒人黄色人種で

Well, you often hear about white, black, and yellow races.

まあ肌の色

Well, the skin color.

違うんだけれども

It's different, but...

まあその違いを本当に

Well, that difference really...

つぶさに研究してたっていう

They said they were studying it in detail.

まあどっからが

Well, where does it start from?

まあ色黒い人って

Well, dark-skinned people...

まあ日本の中にもいらっしゃるじゃないですか

Well, you have people like that in Japan too, don't you?

その人が黒人かって言うと

When you ask if that person is Black...

いや違うけどな

No, that's not it.

けど

But

あのそれこそ

Well, that's exactly it.

キューバとか

Like Cuba, etc.

ラテンアメリカ系だとか

Like someone of Latin American descent.

あとアボリジニだとか

Also, Aboriginal people, for example.

で肌は黒いは黒いけれども

"But my skin is dark, it is indeed dark."

なんかどっからが黒人でどっからがそうじゃないのかみたいな

It's like, where does being black start and where does it not?

そういう研究があったと

There was research like that.

えー面白そう

Oh, that sounds interesting!

うん

Yeah.

まあなんか調べた結果結局はもうグラデーションすぎて

Well, after researching, it turns out it's just too gradient.

もうどっからが白人でどっからが黒人でみたいな

It's hard to tell where white people end and black people begin.

もう結局分けらんねえと

In the end, I can't separate them anymore.

だろうね

I guess so.

いう結論に至ったらね

I reached the conclusion that it should be said.

みたいですね

It seems so.

本当になんか黒人白人黄色人種のその肌の色の違いだけで区別するっていうのが

It's really something that people distinguish others just based on the differences in skin color between black, white, and yellow races.

なんか非常にくだらないというか

It's just really silly or something.

もう見た目だけに惑わされてるなーって

I'm already getting distracted by appearances.

まあ多分自分の意識もまだそこまでいってないんですけども

Well, I probably haven't reached that level of awareness myself yet.

そういったことを感じましたね

I felt that kind of thing.

まあでもねこう一番パッと見で分かりやすいところではあるし

Well, it's definitely the most easily understandable part at first glance.

なんとなくのこう傾向があるんですけども

There seems to be a bit of a tendency for that.

ここがついちゃうから余計に関連づけちゃうんだろうけどね

It's probably because this is attached that I associate it even more.

そうですね

That's right.

でえー自然人類学っていうのはそんな感じの学問だと

Well, that's the kind of discipline that human anthropology is.

で対する対するって言っていいのかな

Is it okay to say "in relation to" or "against"?

まあもう一つが文化または社会人類学って呼ばれるもので

Well, the other one is called culture or social anthropology.

まあこっちはなんか自分が聞いた感じで言い表すと

Well, if I were to express it in my own words based on what I've heard...

人の営みっていうのを

The activities of people.

まあ比較研究していく学問なのかなと

Well, I suppose it's a field of study that involves comparative research.

っていうと分かりやすく挙げられてたのが宗教だとか

For example, it was clearly mentioned that it was about religion.

あと歴史だとかも

And also history, etc.

歴史学もこっちの文化社会人類学のほうに

History is leaning more towards this side of cultural sociology and anthropology.

あと民族学っていうのも文化社会人類学っていうのに当たると

Also, ethnology corresponds to what is called cultural social anthropology.

だから自分がイメージしてたのはやっぱり

So what I had in mind was still...

こっちの文化社会人類学のほうに

"Towards the cultural anthropology here."

当たるほうで

In favor of hitting.

もうなんか最初にお話しした自然人類学のほうっていうのは

Well, regarding the natural anthropology we talked about at the beginning...

あんまりそっちなんか人類学なのかなーっていうような感じはあって

I feel like that's more of an anthropology thing over there.

すごい意外意外というか

Incredible, surprisingly unexpected.

生物学っぽい

It looks like biology.

うんそうそうそうなんか生物学っぽくて

Yeah, that's right, it has a sort of biological feel to it.

なんかサイエンス

Something like science.

うん

Yeah.

本当にサイエンスのほう

Really science-oriented.

かなーって思ってたんですけども

I was thinking, maybe...

まあそこは全然違うと

Well, that's completely different.

まあ人類学の中の一ジャンルなんだなーっていうのは

Well, it's a genre within anthropology.

やっぱりそう考えてみると

When I think about it, after all...

人間まあホモサピエンスっていう種類に関する

Regarding the species known as Homo sapiens.

関連するんだったら何でも人類学に当たるんだなっていうふうに思いましたね

I thought that anything related would be considered anthropology.

うんうん確かに

Yeah, that's true.

そうだね

That's right.

うん本当だ

Yeah, that's true.

で講座の中でもその人類学の頭に

"And in the course of the lecture, it is in the mind of anthropology."

例えば社会

For example, society.

人類学だとか宗教人類学だとか

Anthropology and such, or religious anthropology and such.

結構頭につく

It sticks quite a bit in my head.

なんか人それぞれの専門分野っていいのが

It's nice how everyone has their own area of expertise.

かなり多岐に割るていうようなお話もされてて

It seems that there are quite a few diverse topics being discussed.

もう本当に人がやってることに関してだったらもう

If it's really about what people are doing, then...

どんなことでも人類学になるなーって

"Anything can become anthropology."

幅広すぎっていうふうに思いましたね

I thought it was too wide.

それぐらい人が多様で面白いってことだよね

That just means people are diverse and interesting.

そうですね

That's right.

人の営みというか奥が深すぎて

The activities of people are so profound.

それと同時にこの二分野

At the same time, these two fields.

自然人類学と文化人類学

Physical anthropology and cultural anthropology

大体二分野ぐらいに分かれるよっていうようなお話だったんですけども

It was a story saying that it roughly divides into about two fields.

その区分区分けに意味があるのかなっていうようなのも思いまして

I wonder if there is any meaning in that classification.

自然人類学っていうふうなのに区分けされてる中でも

Even within the categorization known as natural anthropology...

文化人類学とかに近いのとかあるだろうし

There might be something close to cultural anthropology.

研究によってはその自然人類学と文化人類学に分けられてた

Depending on the research, it was divided into physical anthropology and cultural anthropology.

両方

Both

両方の知見を使って行う研究だとかも想定されるだろうし

There might also be research that uses both insights.

なんか入り乱れすぎて

It's all mixed up in a way that's too chaotic.

その二つに区分けするっていうのが

Dividing it into those two categories means...

なんか意味があるのかなみたいな

I wonder if there’s some kind of meaning to it.

なんかこれからどんどんその区分けの境界が

Somehow, from now on, the boundaries of that classification are going to become increasingly blurred.

曖昧になってくんじゃないかなっていうふうなのは思いましたね

I thought it might become ambiguous.

研究って

What is research?

その

That

It seems there is no text provided for translation. Please provide the text you'd like me to translate from Japanese to English.

専門性をすごく尖らせていく活動だから

It's an activity that sharpens our expertise significantly.

その研究の最先端にいる人たちからすると

From the perspective of those at the forefront of that research

やっぱり少し違うって言いたくなるけど

I can't help but want to say it's still a bit different.

でもその研究を外から見てる人からすると

But from the perspective of someone looking at that research from the outside,

なんかあんまり

I don't really feel like it.

その違うって言ってることにピンとこない感じはあると思うし

I think there is a sense that you don't really get what they're saying when they say it's different.

今言ったみたいにその

As I just said, that...

ほぼ似てるようで

It seems almost similar.

でも本人たちから違うっていう研究分野でも

But even in the field of study where they themselves say it's different.

ざっくり言えば人類のことだから

To put it roughly, it's about humanity.

やっぱり

After all.

お互いの知識を混ぜて

Mixing each other's knowledge.

さらに次のステップに研究を昇華していくみたいなことも

It seems like we are elevating our research to the next step.

実際あるのかもしれないけどね

It might actually exist, though.

そうですね

That's right.

その講座の中で

In that course.

えっと

Um...

最新って言っていいのかな

Can I say it's the latest?

えっと

Um...

その文化人類学の方かな

Is that the cultural anthropology person?

文化人類学の方には

To the anthropologists.

えっと

Um...

第一から第三世代まであって

There are first to third generations.

っていうようなお話があって

There is a story like that.

第三世代がこう

This is how the third generation is.

今我々がほぼ生きてる2000年とか

Now, we are almost living in the year 2000.

1900年代ぐらいから

Since around the 1900s

今ぐらいにかけての研究っていうのを

Research that has been conducted around now

ご紹介していただいたんですけども

I was introduced to you.

なんかそういうのが本当に

I really feel like that.

まあさっき言った自然と文化の人類学

Well, the anthropology of nature and culture that I mentioned earlier.

どっちも混ざってるっていうか

It's more like both are mixed together.

どちらとも言い難いような研究もあって

There are also studies that are hard to say one way or the other.

これは本当に最新のやつは難しいなって

This really is difficult with the latest version.

人の移動もかなり大きいし

The movement of people is quite significant.

情報交換とかもね

Like exchanging information and stuff.

インターネットの普及でかなりされてるから

It's been significantly facilitated by the spread of the internet.

なんか混ざりやすそうな環境なんだろうね

It seems like an environment that's easy to mix in.

で、えっと

Well, um...

その自然人類学と社会

That natural anthropology and society.

文化人類学の区分け

Classification of cultural anthropology

こういうのがありますよっていうので

There is something like this.

文化人類学の方をメインに

Focusing mainly on cultural anthropology.

今までどういった研究がされてきたかって

What kind of research has been done so far?

さっき言った第一世代から第三世代のお話をしていただいたんですけども

You mentioned earlier about the story from the first generation to the third generation.

その中ですごい面白かったお話が

Among them, there was a story that was extremely interesting.

ライティングカルチャーショックっていうことのお話だったんですね

It was a story about writing culture shock, wasn't it?

聞いたことない

I haven't heard of it.

それこそ文化人類学だとか

That's exactly what anthropology is about.

それこそ室越さんがやってたキューバでのフィールドワークの研究

That's exactly the fieldwork research that Mr. Murokoshi was doing in Cuba.

とかっていうのは

What do you mean by that?

観察者である室越さんとかっていう研究者っていうのが

The researcher referred to as Mr. Murokoshii, who is an observer, is...

研究したい地域だとか

A region I want to study, or something like that.

そういったところに行って

Going to places like that.

1年から2年かけて

Over the course of 1 to 2 years.

そこの社会というか

The society over there, or rather,

そこの地域で実際に生活して

Live in that area.

産与観察って言ってたかな

I think they were saying something about "production and observation."

産与観察

Ecosystem observation

一緒に

Together

生活していきながら

While living my life.

そこにいる人たちのお話を聞いていって

Please listen to the stories of the people who are there.

研究していくっていうのが

It means "to continue researching."

主な調べ方になるそうなんですけれども

It seems that this will be the main way to investigate.

そのライティングカルチャーショックっていうのが

That culture shock of writing...

そういった調査に対して

Regarding such investigations

実は迷惑になってることもあるんだぞと

Actually, there are times when it's become a nuisance.

調べるのは本当に知的好奇心かもしれないけれども

Researching might really be an intellectual curiosity, but...

調べられてることに関して

Regarding what is being investigated.

不満に思ってたり

Feeling dissatisfied.

不快に思ってたり

Feeling uncomfortable.

人もいるんだぞっていうのが

It's to show that there are also people.

文化人類学者の中から出てきたっていうのが

It emerged from among cultural anthropologists.

言われてて

I was told.

普通にありそうだけどね

It seems like it could happen normally.

あだこだ

"Back and forth" or "this and that."

外から来た人がね

Someone who came from outside.

いくら一緒に生活してるとはいえ

Even though we're living together.

聞かれるのが

Being asked.

やっぱりちょっと気分的に

I guess I'm feeling a bit off.

いい気はしない人もいるだろうし

There may be people who don't feel good about it.

難しいとこだよね

It's a tough situation, isn't it?

うん

Yeah.

そうですね

That's right.

もうそこら辺は

It's already around there.

けどその意見が実際に

But that opinion is actually

その文化人類学者の中から出てきてるっていうのが

It seems to be coming from among those cultural anthropologists.

すごい面白いなと思って

I thought it was really interesting.

ある意味なんか自分たちの調査研究への批判というか

In a way, it's like a criticism of our own research studies.

自己否定みたいな感じに聞こえて

It sounds like a kind of self-denial.

なんかすごいことを中から言い出す人が

Someone inside is saying something amazing.

お前そんなこと言ったら

If you say something like that...

自分の研究なんもできねえじゃねえかって

I can't even do my own research, can I?

もう周りの同僚とかから責められそうなのに

I feel like I'm going to be blamed by my colleagues around me.

よくよく言ったなって

I have to say that you said it well.

確かにね

That's true.

でもなんかその後ろめたさみたいなものが

But there's something like a sense of guilt behind that.

そこで生活してるからこその

Because I'm living there.

感じるものがあったのかもしれないね

There may have been something to feel.

しかも短期じゃなくてさ

Moreover, it's not just for a short period.

結構何年か年単位で行ったりとかするって

It's been quite a few years since I started going regularly.

聞いたことあるから

Because I've heard of it.

うん

Yeah.

やっぱりその

After all, that...

気まずさの中で耐えれない人

A person who cannot endure the awkwardness.

知的好奇心と社会的に自分がどう見られてるかみたいな

It's like intellectual curiosity and how I'm perceived socially.

そのバランスがちょっと取れない人とかもいるかもしれないよね

There might be some people who struggle to maintain that balance.

そうですね

That's right.

なんか室越さんが実際フィールドワークの中で感じた

It seems that Mr. Murokoshi actually felt something during the fieldwork.

似たようなものではないと思う

I don't think it's something similar.

似たようなことなのかな

Is it something similar?

室越さんがおっしゃってたのは

What Mr. Murakoshi was saying is

その地域内

Within that area

まあ多分調べたのは国内のある地域だったと思うんですけども

Well, I think the research was probably conducted in a certain region within the country.

その地域の中で

Within that region.

まあ宗教的な行事って

Well, religious events...

村のお祭りだったりあるわけじゃないですか

It's not like it's a village festival or anything.

その中で

Among them

集落の一部しか知らない

I only know a part of the village.

なんか秘密の行事というか

It's like a secret event or something.

まあ秘技っていうのがあって

Well, there’s a secret technique.

それの調査のことだとかもおっしゃってて

You mentioned something about investigating that as well.

調べる側としてはそれすごい興味深いと思うので

As someone who is researching, I find that really interesting.

それすごい興味深い

That's really interesting.

本当に知りたいことだと思うんですけれども

I think it's something you truly want to know.

けど、中の人からしてみれば

However, from the perspective of the person inside...

なんか外から来た

Something came from outside.

知らない人にそんな

Not like that to a stranger.

村の秘密を話すわけないだろ、みたいな

There's no way I'd tell you the village's secrets, you know?

まあそういうのも

Well, that's one way to look at it.

確かにわかるしなーっていうのもあって

I definitely understand that feeling.

もう一つ面白かったのが

Another interesting thing was

ちょっとライティング・カルチャー・ショックとはまた違う

It's a bit different from culture shock in writing.

うんうんうん

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

のかなーって

I wonder if...

似たような

Similar

またちょっと別な話だったんですけども

It was also a slightly different topic, but...

来てる観察者っていうのが

There are observers who are coming.

そこの地域に

In that area.

与える影響もあるんだぞ

It also has an impact.

もうあくまで

I'm done for sure.

そこに住んでる

I live there.

住んでフィールドワークで研究しながら

Living while conducting fieldwork research.

やってるわけだから

Because I'm doing it.

その観察者の

that observer's

影響って少なからず

There is no small influence.

あるじゃないですか

Isn't there?

そういうのが

Things like that.

そこの

Hey there!

宗教行事だったり

It was a religious event.

そういうのに

In situations like that.

影響することもあるっていう

It can also have an influence.

事例を実際に

In actual examples.

お話しされてて

You are talking.

あるんだ面白い

There is something interesting.

実際にご紹介されてたのは

What you were actually introduced to was

海外の文化人類学の

Cultural anthropology abroad

研究者の

Researcher’s

お話だったんですけども

It was a story, but...

なんか

Something

お祭りの時に

During the festival

人形を作って

Make a doll.

飾る

To decorate.

みたいな

Like a.

お祭りをしてる

We are having a festival.

ところがあると

However, there is a place.

それについて

About that.

人類学者が

Anthropologist

調べに行って

Go investigate.

で翌年

The following year.

同じ祭りを

The same festival.

調べに行ったら

When I went to investigate

ある人形が追加されてたと

They said a certain doll has been added.

去年はなかった人形が追加されてて

There are new dolls added that weren't there last year.

これは何ですかって

What is this?

その調査に来た

I came for that investigation.

人類学者の人か

Are you an anthropologist?

村の人に聞いたら

When I asked the villagers

これはお前だよ

This is you.

いやー

Well...

ははははは

Hahahahaha

それはどういう役割で使われてるんだろう

I wonder what role it is used for.

だってお前なんか

Because you are nothing.

ここに来てさ

"Come here."

何やってるか分かんないけどさ

I don't know what you're doing, but...

なんか人に話聞いたらさ

I heard something when I talked to someone.

ずーっとなんかメモ書きしてんじゃんって

You've been writing notes the whole time, haven't you?

もうなんかすごい面白くてさ

It's just really interesting, you know?

人形にしたんだみたいな

It’s like I turned it into a doll.

お話だったそうなんですね

I heard that was the case.

あー

Ah-

好意的に一応捉えられてるんだね

It seems that it is being taken positively, at least for now.

あーちょっとそこら辺のニュアンスは

Ah, the nuance around that area is...

分かんなかったんですけども

I didn't understand, but...

まあ悪い意味では

Well, not in a bad way.

うんなんか批判する意味で作ってるんですけども

Yeah, I'm making it with the intention of criticizing.

作ってるっていうわけではないとは思うんですけども

I don't think it's that they're actually making it, though.

なんかもうそれは実際観察してたことが

It feels like what I actually observed was...

対象者に影響を与えた結果が

The result that affected the subjects.

本当に出てきてる例だったんで

It was a really good example that came up.

そこら辺はもう人類フィールドワークの難しさとか

The difficulties of human fieldwork around that area, or something like that.

っていうのがすごい出てて

That's really coming out strongly.

なんかこれはなんて言い表せばいいんだろうかっていう

I wonder how I should express this.

なんか無力感というかこう

It's like a sense of powerlessness, or something.

けど調べなきゃ分からないことだし

But it's something that can't be understood unless you investigate it.

っていうのが湧いてきて

"That just came to mind."

なんかすごいジレンマだなーっていうところを感じましたね

I felt like there was a really great dilemma going on.

なんか研究って仕事にしてる人もいるだろうけど

There are people who make research their job, right?

でも知的好奇心がその人にあるから

But it's because that person has intellectual curiosity.

その研究をしてるわけで

That's why I'm doing that research.

それって

What is that?

当事者にとってはやりたいことだけれども

For the parties involved, it's something they want to do, but...

じゃあやりたいことのために

Then, for the sake of what I want to do.

他の地域に入って何でもしていいのかっていうと

Is it okay to enter other regions and do anything?

法には触れてないけど

It's not against the law, but...

何に何でもしていいわけではないと思うし

I don't think it's permissible to do anything just for the sake of doing something.

やっぱりその

After all, that...

何て言うかその研究する人の自覚

How should I put it, the awareness of the person conducting the research.

そういうことがあるかもしれないっていう自覚とか

Awareness that such things might happen.

その謙虚さみたいなもの

That sense of humility.

できるだけその地域に影響を与えない

To have as little impact on the area as possible.

与えらんようにしようみたいなものがないと

If there's nothing like an effort to give.

やっぱり成り立たないんじゃないかなとも思うし

I can't help but think that it probably won't work out after all.

そうですね

That's right.

っていうなんかそういう気持ちがあるのとないのとで

It's like having that kind of feeling or not having it.

全然やっぱり違うなと思うし

I really think it's completely different.

そこらへんはもうなんか

It's kind of around there.

最大限努力するしかないんでしょうけれども

I guess there's nothing to do but to do my utmost.

もう調査するとなった時点で

At the point when it was decided to investigate.

もう対象に影響を与えてるっていうことについては

It is already having an impact on the subject.

もうありのままの

Already as it is.

そのそこの文化っていうのを調査する術はもうないんだなっていう

It feels like there’s no longer a way to investigate that local culture.

のがあって

"having" or "there is"

そうね

That's right.

なんかでもそれってそのままさ

Well, that seems to be just like that.

その人間関係にも当てはめられると思うんだけど

I think that can also be applied to relationships with people.

人間同士のその関わり方ってさ

The way humans are connected with each other, you know?

何がどう影響するかって

What will influence what?

本人たちにも分かんなかったりするじゃん

They themselves might not understand it either.

そんなつもりで言ったんじゃないのにとか

I didn’t mean it that way, though.

絶対あるし

There must be absolutely something.

やっぱり相手が言ったことを

After all, what the other person said...

いくらその

No matter how much that...

同じ例えば日本人同士で喋ってたとしても

For example, even if Japanese people are talking to each other...

相手が言ってたことを100%そのまま自分の中にインプットするって

Inputting exactly what the other person said 100% into yourself.

無理だと思うんだよね

I think it's impossible.

うんですね

Yeah, that's right.

やっぱりその背景とかね

After all, it's about that background and such.

認識とかが違うと

If the recognition is different, then...

絶対同じ言葉使ってても違う

Even if the exact same words are used, they are different.

あの理解になると思うから

I think it will lead to that understanding.

まあそういう意味で

Well, in that sense.

その同じ文化同じ言語を使ってても

Even if we use the same culture and the same language.

やっぱりそういう限界はあるから

After all, there are limits to that kind of thing.

そもそもだからそういう認識でいると

That's why if you have that kind of awareness...

その多言語で多地域で多文化のところの調査に行くっていうことの限界っていうのは

The limitations of going to conduct research in multi-lingual, multi-regional, and multi-cultural areas are...

もしかしたらその研究者たちが一番

Perhaps those researchers are the best.

なんかこう

Well, something like this...

痛感してるんじゃないかなっていう気もする

I feel like you might be acutely aware of it.

でも知りたいからやってるみたいな

But it seems like they're doing it because they want to know.

なんかその

Well, um...

このここまでかっていう限界と

"Is this really the limit?"

でもやりたいっていう

But I want to do it.

その攻め合いみたいなのが

It’s like that back-and-forth attack.

なんか勝手に想像されるんだけども

It seems like I'm being imagined on my own.

そうですね

That's right.

だからこそその価値ある研究みたいなものが生まれるんだと思うし

That's why I believe that valuable research like that is created.

なんかただ言って

Just say something.

はい調べてきました

Yes, I looked it up.

ポンってこう生まれた研究より

"Born from research like this."

そういうなんかその

Something like that, um...

やっぱり人間同士の関わりの話だからこそ

After all, it's a story about the connections between people.

生まれるなんかものがあるんじゃないかなって

I think there might be something to being born.

なんかこれ完全に想像で言ってるけど

I'm saying this completely out of imagination, but...

なんかいいんじゃないかな

I think it's somewhat good.

そういう葛藤の上で生まれてきたものの方が

Things that were born from such conflicts

私はなんかその人間らしさがあるなって思うし

I feel that there is a certain humanity in that person.

なんか正解

Somehow, that's correct.

研究ってその正解を出すことではなくて

Research is not about coming up with the correct answer.

これが絶対真実だみたいな正解を出すのが研究じゃなくて

It's not research to come up with a definitive answer as if it's the absolute truth.

あくまでその研究者から見た

From the perspective of that researcher.

一視点を提示するぐらいの感覚だと思ってて

I think of it as just presenting one perspective.

うん

Yeah.

うんうんうん

Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh.

だからいいんじゃないかな

So it's probably fine, isn't it?

その人から見たその世界くらいの感じで

It feels like the world from that person's perspective.

ダメかな

Is it no good?

でそれが多くの人に認められたら

And if that is recognized by many people.

それはそれで価値があるし

That has its own value as well.

でもやっぱりその時もてはやされたとしても

But even if I was celebrated at that time,

何百年後とかにやっぱりこれは間違ってたとかって

"After several hundred years, will it still be said that this was wrong?"

普通に今でもあるわけじゃん

It's still normally there now, right?

常識が変わったりとかってすることってあるわけだから

There are times when common sense changes.

なんかあんまりそこになんかこだわらなくてもいいというか

I feel like it's okay not to be too particular about that.

そういうむしろ自覚があることの方が

In fact, being aware of that is more important.

限界を感じながらやってる方が大事だと思うけどな

I think it's more important to do it while feeling your limits.

と思いますが

I think so.

そうですねどうしても最初言った人類学って

Well, the anthropology I mentioned at the beginning...

人に関することが全て研究対象になるから

Because everything related to people becomes a subject of research.

どうしてももう人との影響は避けられないっていう

I just can't avoid being influenced by others anymore.

それをもう前提に組み込んでしまって

I've already incorporated that as a premise.

もうそこら辺は影響が出ることは仕方ないっていうのを

It's unavoidable that there will be some impact around that area.

徹底した前提において成り立つ学問なんだな

It's a discipline that is established on thorough premises.

まあそれこそ人ねおっしゃった通り

Well, that's exactly what you said, isn't it?

人はそうそうなんだからねって

People are just like that, you know.

そうね

That's right.

でも

But

開き乗っちゃいけないと思うし

I don't think you should open it.

そうですね

That's right.

難しいよね

It's difficult, isn't it?

バランスだよね

It's about balance, isn't it?

そうですね

I see.

なんかこれを聞いた時に

When I heard this...

ちょっと思ったのが

I was just thinking that...

辻さんこんな言葉を聞いたことありませんか

Mr. Tsuji, haven't you ever heard such words?

深淵を覗くとき

When you gaze into the abyss.

深淵もまたこちらを覗いているんだ

The abyss is also gazing back at us.

聞いたことがある程度ですけど

I've only heard of it to some extent.

ニュアンス的には

In terms of nuance,

うん

Yeah.

なんかこれ

This is something.

結構ネットの中では

Quite a lot on the internet.

クテルフ神話っていうかなり

It's called the Cthulhu Mythos.

#11 雑談会 会津でle Tonneauに参加してきた！【後編】

#11 雑談会会津でle Tonneauに参加してきた！【後編】