#4 後半 アート界の1億円プレーヤーは？「アート×投資編」（テスタ・川田十夢・DJ Nobbyのビジネス座談会）

さあ本日のThe Insightでございますけれども

Well, here is today’s The Insight.

アートの楽しさをより分かりやすく身近に伝える

Conveying the joy of art in a more understandable and accessible way.

アートテラーのトニーさんをお迎えしてみます

We will welcome the art teller, Tony.

よろしくお願いします

Thank you in advance.

そして投資家のテスタさんでございます

And this is investor Testa.

よろしくお願いいたします

Thank you in advance.

テスタさんといえば投資

Speaking of Testa, it's about investment.

投資といえばテスタさんということでございまして

Speaking of investment, it's Mr. Testa.

このコーナーで前半はアートアーティスト同士というか

In this section, the first half is about artists interacting with each other.

アートの話を深掘っていったんですが

We delved deeper into the topic of art.

そうですね

That's right.

投資×アートということで金の話をしていこうと

Let's talk about money in relation to investment and art.

金の話って言うとちょっとなんか言い方があれだけど

When it comes to talking about money, it might sound a bit off to say it like that, but...

まあまあお金の話ね

Well, it's just about money.

そうです

That’s right.

お金も関わる話

It's a matter that involves money.

もちろんアーティストだって食わないといけないわけで当たり前ですけども

Of course, it's only natural that artists need to earn a living.

確かに

Certainly.

そうなんですよアートがただで楽しめるはずがないわけですよね

That's right, art can't possibly be enjoyed for free, can it?

だってアートって高いイメージありますからね

That's because art has a high-cost image, you know.

すごい高いってイメージありますもん

I have the impression that it's really expensive.

投資されてますかアートの投資

Are you investing in art?

いや僕も全くしたことないんですよ

No, I've never done it at all either.

全然わかんなくて

I don't understand at all.

怖いっていうのがやっぱちょっと

It's kind of scary, after all.

わかんないから怖いっていうのが一番ありますよね

The most common feeling is that it's scary because we don't understand.

なんか友達の良しみでちょっと買ってみたとかもないですかね

Isn't it possible that I just bought it a bit because of a friend's recommendation?

ないですないです

No, there isn't.

もうだってもうだってこれが何十万とかこれが何百万って言われても

"Even if they say this is hundreds of thousands or millions, it doesn't matter anymore."

本当かどうかがわかんないから

I don't know if it's true or not.

もう怖くてもう怖くて

I'm so scared, I'm so scared.

なんか知識がないとね騙されそうな気も

I feel like I might be deceived if I don't have some knowledge.

なるほどですよね

I see, that makes sense.

偽物とかってありそうですか

Do you think there could be fakes?

1、2万ならいいですけどなんか100万とか出して騙されたら

If it's 20,000 to 30,000 yen, that's fine, but if I were to pay 1 million yen and get scammed, that would be a problem.

いやそうな

reluctant

嫌ですよね

It's unpleasant, isn't it?

だからちょっと怖いなと思うんですけど

So I think it's a little scary.

でも興味はありますけど

But I am interested.

ちょっとまず今アートの投資がどういう状況なのかというか

I'm just wondering about the current situation of art investment.

どういうものなのかというのをトニーさんに最初に伺いたい

I would like to first ask Tony what it is all about.

そうですね前提としてやっぱり投資って言葉はなかなか使ってはないですよね

That's right, as a premise, the word "investment" isn't really used that often, is it?

やっぱりそのコレクターさんがやっぱりアートにお金を出すとは言うけど

After all, that collector says they are willing to spend money on art, but...

投資って言うとやっぱりリターンがあると思う

When it comes to investing, I believe there will definitely be a return.

もちろんリターンが持って買う方もいらっしゃると思いますけど

I'm sure there are people who buy with the expectation of returns, but...

多分生前説で言うとやっぱアート界でお金を出してる方は

Perhaps when talking about the theory of pre-existence, those who are investing money in the art world...

やっぱりパトロネージの端そのが多いから

After all, there are many ends of patronage.

なんかダメな人だ

Someone like that is no good.

ダメな人だ

You're a hopeless person.

発想がダメな人だ

They are a person with poor ideas.

発想が僕?

Is the idea me?

リターンが返ってくると思ってた

I thought the return would come back.

金が金がって言ってたもんだって

They were saying it's all about the money.

でもアートにお金を出すということに関しては

However, when it comes to spending money on art...

多くの方がされてると思いますよね

I think many people do that, don't you?

そもそもリターンを期待してないんですね

In the first place, you don't expect any return, do you?

そうですよね

That's right, isn't it?

そりゃそうですよ

That's true.

いやいやいや

No, no, no.

リターンしか期待してない

"I'm only expecting a return."

リターンっていうのは100万円のアート作品を買って

A return means buying an art piece worth 1 million yen.

100万円でいいだと思って買ってるわけですから

I thought it would be good to buy it for 1 million yen.

その人でもリターンじゃないですか

Isn't that person also a return?

それが何倍になる

What will that multiply by?

何倍になっちゃうとまた投資みたいな話になるけど

It will be like a discussion about investment if it multiplies by that much again.

それ所有できるという喜び

The joy of being able to own that.

もうその時点で

At that point.

何言ってるんですかもう

What are you talking about already?

本当に怖い

Really scary.

ブランドバッグとか買うのとかも一緒ですけど

It's the same with buying things like brand-name bags.

いやいやいやそういうことですよね

No, no, no, that's exactly it, right?

とはいえやっぱり夢がある

That being said, I still have dreams.

アートってのはあると思うんですよね

I think there is such a thing as art.

だからやっぱりその投資じゃないですよ

So, after all, it's not that investment.

っていうのは前提で言ってますけども

I'm saying this with that premise in mind, though.

それこそ例えば有名な草間弥生さん

For example, the famous Yayoi Kusama.

今も何千万とかみんなもそういうイメージあるじゃないですか

Even now, everyone has that kind of image of millions, right?

水玉のような

Like polka dots

かぼちゃ描いたり水玉のような

Like drawing pumpkins and polka dots.

30年前までは本当にそういうイメージがあったんですけども

Thirty years ago, there was really that kind of image.

数百万いかなかったかもって今

I might not have even reached a few million just now.

例えば先にもよりますけどね

For example, it depends on the situation.

今1000万の作品は

Right now, a 10 million yen artwork is...

そんと30年ぐらいまでだと

About until around 30 years ago.

本当に何百万以下で買えたのかなぐらいです

I wonder if I could really buy it for less than a million.

だからこの数年30年ぐらいで

So, in these past few years, about 30 years or so.

30倍50倍になったりとか

It can become 30 times or 50 times.

えかぼちゃっていくらするんですか

How much does a pumpkin cost?

今ね多分版画作品で1000万じゃ効かない

Right now, 10 million probably isn't enough for a print work.

え草間さんの

Eh, Kusama-san's.

はい昔はもう数十万だったのが

Yes, it used to be several hundred thousand.

絵ですあの版画です

It's a picture, that print.

だから絵が一番高いんですか

So that's why the painting is the most expensive?

版画が一番高いんですか

Is the print the most expensive?

版画はやっぱ言ってものじゃないですか

Isn't printmaking something you can really talk about?

版画は

Printmaking is

キャンバスで言ったらもう1億とか

If we're talking about the canvas, it's already around 100 million.

え一点ものだ

It's a one-of-a-kind item.

実物の作品とかになると

When it comes to actual works of art...

なったらやっぱ1億じゃ効かないんじゃないですか

If it becomes that way, then I suppose 100 million wouldn't be enough, would it?

特に今草間さん中国で人気なので

Especially now, Kusama is popular in China.

やっぱ中国マネーが入ってきちゃうと

When Chinese money comes in after all.

ビバリーヒルズとか

Beverly Hills or something.

なんかあの韓国のあのカジノのあのね

There's something about that casino in Korea, you know.

とことかあるじゃないですか

There are places like that, aren't there?

でっかいやつ

Big one.

あれめっちゃ高いんですか

Is that extremely expensive?

高い今買ったら高いです

If you buy it now, it's expensive.

え

Eh?

当時ですよ

At that time.

何億とかするんですか

Does it cost hundreds of millions?

なりますなりますそれはなります

It will happen, it will definitely happen.

作れそうですけどね

I think it could be made.

一線そういうの言っちゃダメなんですよ

You shouldn't say things like that.

それを言っちゃダメなんですけど

I shouldn't say that, but...

てんてんてんてん

dots dots dots dots

そうですねだから作れちゃって

That's right, so you can make it.

元作が出てきちゃうから

Because the original work is going to come out.

またややこしくなっちゃうってことですよね

It means it's going to get complicated again, right?

なるほどそうですよね

I see, that makes sense.

それは確かにそう

That's certainly true.

そんなするんだ

Is that really what you're going to do?

元作問題ももちろんありますし

There are certainly original problems as well.

いや全然わかんないですけど

No, I don't understand at all.

日本でそのなんかすごい人って

In Japan, that kind of amazing person.

もう草間さんレベルのすごい人って

Someone like Kusama is on another level of greatness.

他にもいらっしゃるんですか

Are there others here?

今この美術界あんまりいい言葉じゃないんですけど

Right now, the art world doesn't have very good words for it.

1億円プレイヤー

100 million yen player

値段が1億円って言われるのが

I hear that the price is 100 million yen.

草間さんがいるとして

If Ms. Kusama is here.

一応日本には5人ぐらいかなと

I think there are about five people in Japan just in case.

5人

5 people

奈良義智さん

Mr. Yoshitomo Nara

はい奈良さん

Yes, Nara-san.

方とか杉本宏さん

Hō and Hiroshi Sugimoto.

小野陽子さんですね

It's Yoko Ono, isn't it?

小野陽子さんか

Is it Yoko Ono?

あとはどうだろうそれぐらいかな

I wonder if that's about it.

あと菅岸雄さんっていう方が

Also, there is a person named Sugagishi Yu.

来たかなぐらい

I wonder if they have arrived.

来たって言い方ちょっと偉そうですけど

Saying "I came" sounds a bit arrogant, though.

でもやっぱほんと数え

But really, I can’t count.

あと村上隆さん

Also, Takashi Murakami.

あと村上隆さんね

Also, Takashi Murakami.

村上隆さん

Takashi Murakami

この辺かなって気がします

I feel like it's around here.

村上隆さん

Mr. Takashi Murakami

フォローしてくれてるからね

It's because you're following me.

なんかフォローしてるかどうかだけで話してません

I'm not really talking just based on whether I'm following or not.

誰だろうと思ったけど

I was wondering who it could be.

中谷さんはCJKの

Mr. Nakaya is from CJK.

ヴィトンとかのやつ

Stuff like Vuitton.

中谷さんでも誰だろうと思ってた時期が

There was a time when I was wondering who Nakaya-san was.

いやいやいや

No, no, no.

全員知ってた今

Everyone knows now.

知ってました

I knew it.

うっそ

No way!

なんで

Why?

なんでそんな知ってんの

Why do you know that?

おじいちゃんが彼ですから

Because he's my grandpa.

おじいちゃんが彼だから

Because he is my grandfather.

関係ないですけど

It has nothing to do with it, but...

で一般常識としてやっぱその5人ぐらいは

Well, as common knowledge, about five people or so.

みんな知ってるもんなんですか

Does everyone know about it?

いやでも杉本さんとかは

Well, but Suigimoto-san and others...

あと好きな人はもちろん知ってる

Of course, I know the person I like.

好きなんですか

Do you like it?

そんな好き

I like you so much.

分けてっていう感じではないですけど

It's not like I'm saying to separate them, but...

あのお名前は知ってました

I knew that name.

杉本さんはニュートゥーの

Mr. Sugimoto is with New Too.

あれですよね

That's right, isn't it?

アルバムのジャケットの写真とかやったりとかしてるので

I'm doing things like taking pictures for the album cover.

それで知ってる方もいるかなって感じですよね

So I feel like some people might know about it.

勉強しないとね色々ね

I need to study various things, don't I?

勉強じゃなくて感じるんですって

It's not about studying; it's about feeling it.

勉強じゃなくて

Not studying.

感じれるかな

I wonder if I can feel it.

感じるのがアートらしいです

It seems that art is about feeling.

いや難しいな

Yeah, it's difficult.

いやでも見ててやっぱり

Well, I guess watching it makes me think that after all.

なんか楽しいっていうのはありますから

There are definitely things that are fun.

あのそれこそ

Um, well...

さっきの誰でしたっけ

Who was that person from earlier?

草間さんですか

Is this Mr./Ms. Kusama?

村上さん

Mr. Murakami

村上さんのポップなやつで

Mr. Murakami's pop one.

すごい僕でもなんか見て楽しいって思いますから

It's amazing; even I think it's fun to watch.

楽しいっていう時点でももうリターンあるじゃないですか

Just the fact that it’s fun means there’s already a return, doesn’t it?

宝くじだったら宝くじ眺めてても面白くないけど

If it's a lottery, just looking at the lottery tickets isn't interesting.

あとはそのまず買った時点で楽しいし

It's already fun just at the point of buying it.

それが気づいたらまた値段上がったらいいなって

I hope the price goes up again when I notice that.

他のなんか株券買うのもいいですけど

Buying other stocks is good too, but...

眺めて楽しいっていうまずメリットがありますよねって

One of the first advantages is that it's enjoyable to look at.

そういう人たちの作品っていうのは年間どれぐらいに

How many works do those kinds of people produce in a year?

毎年すごい数作られるんですか

Are a huge number produced every year?

人によって

By person.

本当に人によりますね

It really depends on the person.

例えば草間さんのとこだったら

For example, if it's with Kusama-san...

草間さんは今たくさんは作れてないですね

Ms. Kusama isn't able to make a lot right now.

年間ってキャンバスで書いてますけども

I write about the year on a canvas.

まだ現役で

Still active.

現役でやられてますね

You are still active in it, aren't you?

そうなんだ

Is that so?

その楽しい気持ちになるっていうところに1億円を払うからですよね

That's why you would pay 100 million yen for that feeling of joy.

そういう意味で

In that sense

そうですよね

That's right.

あと例えば草間さんの場合で言うとやっぱ一番人気なかぼちゃなんですよ

For example, in the case of Kusama, the most popular one is definitely the pumpkin.

みんなが分かるものが人気が高まるじゃないですか

Things that everyone can understand tend to become more popular, right?

でも今かぼちゃ書いてないわけですよ

But I'm not drawing a pumpkin right now.

もう今は

Not anymore.

なるとやっぱかぼちゃの価値はどんどん上がりますよね

Naruto's value, as expected, is steadily increasing, isn't it?

数はもう

The number is already...

もうじゃあ書いてくださいって言っても書いてくれない

Well, even if I ask them to write it, they won't do it.

多分書かないと思います

I probably won't write it.

かぼちゃバブルですよ

It's a pumpkin bubble!

だから今生きてる人の話してますけど

So I'm talking about the people who are alive now.

だからさらになくなってしまうと作品は増えないからまた値段が

Therefore, if they disappear even more, the number of works will not increase, which will affect the pricing again.

確かに

Certainly.

まあ理屈上上がりますよね

Well, it does make sense that it would go up.

じゃあおじいちゃんとかおばあちゃんの人の作品買っといた方がいいってこと?

So, does that mean it's better to buy works by people like grandparents?

投資の視点ではそうかもしれない

From an investment perspective, that might be the case.

ただ投資の視点で言うとそうかもしれないです

From an investment perspective, it might be so.

まあ投資の話じゃないよって言いながらあれですけど

Well, even though I'm saying it's not an investment talk, here it is.

亡くなった方でも値段がある程度上がっちゃった人は2倍3倍にはもうならないですよね

For those who have passed away, the prices have already increased to some extent, so they won't become two or three times higher, right?

そんなに

So much.

あーなるほど

Ah, I see.

オチもしないけどそれ以上にも

It won't end with a punchline, but it doesn't go beyond that either.

ある程度値段ついちゃったら

Once the price reaches a certain point,

でもまあもしこれからこうまあ投資じゃないですけどと言ってますけども

Well, I mean, if we’re talking about something that’s not really an investment from now on...

もしこう美術でお金出すって言うんだったら若手の方が

If you're going to spend money on art, then it would be better to support the younger artists.

あの伸びしろはありますよね

There's potential for growth, isn't there?

だって村上隆さんだって1990年代学生だった時には学生の料金だったわけですよ

Well, even Takashi Murakami was a student in the 1990s and had student rates.

それがこの20何年間で何億になってるわけですよ

That's what has become billions over these past 20-some years.

だから数万円数十万円で買えたかもしれない

So it might have been possible to buy it for several tens of thousands of yen.

いやーでもだってとんでもない数のその若手がいる中のってことですよね

Well, I mean, that means there are an incredible number of those young people, doesn't it?

株にも似てますよねやっぱり新しい企業はたくさんあるけど

It's similar to stocks, isn't it? There are indeed many new companies.

どれがじゃあ10年後にアマゾンになるかとかNVIDIAになるかとかって

Which one will become the next Amazon or NVIDIA in 10 years?

やっぱまだわかんないですからね最初のうちは

I still don't really understand it, especially in the beginning.

二乗乗株ってことですよね

It means "It's a square stock, right?"

そうですよね

That's right.

でもまあ村上さんも多分喜んでくれるとは思うんですけど

Well, I think Mr. Murakami would probably be happy about it too.

多分1億円で作品買ったとて村上さん作品もうみんな買ってるから1億円で買ってくれるとは思うんですけど

Even if I bought the artwork for 100 million yen, I think everyone has already bought Murakami's works, so I don't think anyone would buy it for that price.

多分1億円で買った人にそんなにありがとうって言わないかもしれないですよ村上さん

Mr. Murakami, perhaps you won't say thank you that much to the person who bought it for 100 million yen.

でも今10万円で若手にお金作品買ってあげたら多分その人は一生覚えてくれるかもしれないですよ

But if you buy a young artist's work for 100,000 yen now, that person will probably remember it for a lifetime.

あの時のってなるわけじゃないですよ

It's not like it was back then.

多分だから株と一緒だと思うんですけど

I think it's probably the same as stocks.

あの時出してくれた人

The person who helped me back then.

実際に買われたりもするんですか

Do people actually buy them?

僕は一応こういう仕事やってるので誰かを買ってしまうと誰かを買わなかったりになっちゃうんで

Since I'm somewhat involved in this kind of work, if I buy someone, it would mean not buying someone else.

だから買っとけば良かったのはいっぱいありますよ

So there are many things I should have bought.

あの時あの値段だったら

If it had been that price at that time.

だってわかりそうですもんね

Because it seems like you would understand.

人はすごいとかってわかるけど

People can understand that something is amazing, but...

だからやっぱり僕は美術を魅力を伝えてる仕事なのでインサイダーみたいになっちゃうわけじゃないですか

That's why, after all, my job is to convey the charm of art, so I end up becoming like an insider, don't I?

って思われたら嫌だし

I don't want to be thought of that way.

だいたいビビッとくるんですかそれは

Do you usually get a strong feeling about that?

だんだん出てくるとこういう人はやっぱり来てるなとか傾向みたいなのがありますよ

As they gradually appear, there seems to be a trend of certain types of people showing up.

今こういう人が世界的に流行ってきてるなとかをわかってくるのでこの人伸びそうだなとかはわからない

I can start to understand that certain types of people are becoming globally popular, so I can't tell if this person will thrive or not.

業界分析みたいな感じですね半導体くるなみたいな

It's like an industry analysis, saying something like "the semiconductor wave is coming."

そうそうそれで言うと僕が唯一じゃなく知ってるけどバンクシーとかって

Speaking of that, the only one I know besides me is Banksy.

うんうん

Uh-huh.

すごい上がったんですよね

It really went up, didn't it?

上がってますね

It's on the rise, isn't it?

めちゃくちゃ上がってます

It's going through the roof!

ずっとまだ上がり続けてるんですか

Is it still going up continuously?

結構でももうある程度ブワンと上がりましたけど

Well, it's already risen quite a bit, though.

ここからは多分そんなに伸びしろはないと思います

I don't think there's much room for growth from here.

あのシュレッダーのやつがありました

There was that shredder thing.

ありましたありました

I found it, I found it.

やっぱあの絵とかすごい価値が上がってますね

That painting is really increasing in value, isn't it?

上がってます上がってます

It's going up, it's going up.

面白い

Interesting.

でもなんかその所有する市内の視点でNFTでしたっけ

But it was something like NFTs from the perspective of owning a city, right?

ありましたね

It existed, didn't it?

お詳しいですかNFT

Are you knowledgeable about NFTs?

NFTはやっぱり

NFTs are still...

一都会で

In the city.

一時その投資界隈でもやっぱり盛り上がりましたから

For a while, it really got exciting in the investment community.

なんかツイッターのなんか初めてつぶやいたツイッターなんか3億円でその画像

I don't know, but it seems like the first tweet on Twitter was sold for 300 million yen along with that image.

画像って権利なんですかね

Are images considered rights?

データですね

It's data, isn't it?

みたいなのが売れたけど

Something like that sold well, but...

なんか次にその人がオークション出したらなんかもう300万円ぐらいになっちゃったみたいな

It seems like when that person puts something up for auction next time, it might already go for around 3 million yen.

おー

Oh!

とかとかもあるんでなんかイメージ的にすごい流行ったけどなんかすごいシュリンクしたとこもあるので

There were various things like that, so it seems to have been really popular in terms of image, but there are also places where it has significantly shrunk.

なんかイメージ的にすごい流行ったけどなんかすごいシュリンクしたとこもあるので

It seemed to have become really popular in terms of image, but there are also areas where it has really shrunk.

なんかイメージ的にすごい流行ったというかなんかちっちゃくなっちゃってる感じが

It feels like it really became popular in some way, or maybe it feels like it’s becoming smaller.

なんかちっちゃくなっちゃってる感じが

It feels like it's become a bit smaller.

なんかちっちゃくなっちゃってる感じがこういう感じが

It feels like it's become kind of small, like this.

こういう感じが

I feel this way.

実際下がってはいますね

It has actually decreased, hasn't it?

多分その一時期のその大バブルみたいなのではないですけど

It's probably not like that big bubble period for a while.

でもただ始まりの時から比べたら今10倍ぐらいの市場にはなって

But compared to the time when it all started, the market has now grown to about ten times larger.

100倍から10倍に下がったぐらいの感じではありますけど

It feels like it's dropped from 100 times to about 10 times.

ゼロではないと思いますし

I don't think it's zero.

逆に言うとなんか変なものっていったらちょっと語弊がありますけども

Conversely, saying that it's something strange might be a bit misleading, but...

なんかもう本当に玉石混合だった時代があったけど

There was a time when it was really a mix of good and bad.

そういうものが今撤退してって

Such things are now withdrawing.

結構純粋なものというか

It's quite a pure thing, or rather.

まあ将来性があるものが残ってきたかなって意味で言うと

Well, in terms of saying that there are things that have potential for the future, I would say that.

逆に今の方が割合的にはアート作品と呼べるものが増えてきたかなって気はします

On the contrary, I feel that now there are more things that can be called artworks in terms of proportion.

本当に楽しんでる界隈がまだそのNFTをみんなで盛り上げていて

The community that is truly enjoying it is still rallying around that NFT together.

やっぱりNFTってそのだから面白いところはやっぱりその技術

Ultimately, the interesting aspect of NFTs is definitely the technology behind it.

そのやっぱり所有するって考え方が変わったわけで

That way of thinking about ownership has definitely changed.

これまでは本当に実物を手にするというか物を持つだったのが

Up until now, it was really about having the actual object or holding something.

ネット上に所有するっていう発想になった時に

When the idea of owning something on the internet arose

アーティストがいろんなことを新しいことを思いつくっていうか

It's like artists come up with various new ideas.

所有するってどういうことなんだろうって考え始めてて

I've started to think about what it means to possess something.

その実験で生まれたアートってのは面白いし

The art that was created from that experiment is interesting.

多分今後残っていくと思うんですよね

I think it will probably remain in the future.

その技術をうまく使ったという

It is said that they effectively utilized that technology.

例えば一つの例で言うと

For example, to give one example.

ダミアハーストっていうイギリスを代表する国民的アーティストがいて

There is a national artist representing the UK named Damiahurst.

彼は日本円で言うと20万円ぐらいでドットの絵を描いたんですね

He painted a dot picture for around 200,000 yen.

で1万点ぐらい作ったのかな

I wonder if I made about 10,000 points.

で

Well then.

これと同じそのドット絵と同じNFTを作る

Create the same NFT as this dot art.

だから×1万あるわけです

So it's multiplied by 10,000.

じゃあ本物と

Then with the real thing.

オンラインと両方ですね

Both online and in-person.

オンライン上の

online

でそれを買った人に言ったのは

What I told the person who bought it was

どっちかを1年後捨ててくださいと

Please throw away one of them after a year.

破棄してください

Please discard it.

だからあなたは実物として持ってたいですか

So do you want to have it in person?

それともNFTとして持ってたいですかっていう

Or do you want to hold it as an NFT?

踏み絵を踏ませたみたいな

It feels like I was made to step on a踏み絵.

大体の

roughly

大体で言うと5割強というか

Roughly speaking, it’s a bit over 50%.

ちょっとはやっぱり実物で持ってたらしいです

It seems that they actually had the real thing a little bit.

半分以上

More than half.

ちょっとは捨てちゃったってがNFTで捨てちゃったらしいんですけど

It seems that they threw some things away, but it looks like they got rid of them as NFTs.

金額で言うと結局実物

In terms of amount, it ultimately comes down to the actual item.

NFTは20万で買ったものが

An NFT that was bought for 200,000.

大体1年後に80万ぐらいになった

About a year later, it became around 800,000.

でも

But

えーすごい

Wow, that's amazing!

それでもすごいじゃないですか4倍になった

That's still amazing, isn't it? It's four times bigger.

でもその実物で取ってた方は価値としては200万円になった

However, the actual item that was obtained has a value of 2 million yen.

つまり10倍になった

In other words, it increased tenfold.

だからやっぱり今はNFTで持っておくよりも

So after all, it's better to hold onto it with NFTs for now rather than...

まあ物として物質として持っておきたいって人が多い

Well, there are many people who want to have it as a thing, as a physical object.

買ったその時は

At the moment I bought it

ただ今後はまたこの価値はあくまでいいと思うんですよ

I think this value will still be good in the future.

あくまで1年後の結果ですから

It's only the result from a year later.

もしかしたらNFTの方がいいってなっていくかもしれない

It might turn out that NFTs are better.

1万点同じ作品があるのに

Even though there are 10,000 identical pieces.

それを200万で買う人がいるってこと?

Are there people who would buy it for 2 million?

同じっていうかそれぞれやっぱり違うんですよ

It's not exactly the same; each one is different, after all.

ちょっとずつ違うので

It's a little different in various ways.

だから1点ものなんですよ一応

So it's a one-of-a-kind item, just to let you know.

だからやっぱりそれはみんな取っときたい

So I guess everyone wants to keep that.

なるほどな

I see.

だからやっぱりNFTって言っちゃうと

So when you say NFT, after all...

よくわかんないって人も多いと思うんですけど

I think there are many people who don't really understand it.

でも今本当に美術コレクターさんの中で結構問題になってるのは

But right now, what is becoming quite an issue among art collectors is...

作品をどう買うのかっていうのが多いですよね

There are many questions about how to purchase works, right?

作品をどうやって保存しとくか

How to preserve the work?

物理的に

Physically

倉庫を借りて保存するんですけど

I'm going to rent a warehouse to store it.

もしその倉庫が水没しちゃったらどうしますか

What will you do if the warehouse gets flooded?

リスクはいっぱいあるわけじゃないですか

There are many risks, aren't there?

NFTだったらそのリスクは一応

If it's an NFT, then that risk is somewhat...

理屈上ないです

It doesn't make sense logically.

インターネットがなくならない限りと

"As long as the internet doesn't disappear."

まあそうですね

Well, that's true.

だからしかも保存もだし

So, also, it's about saving.

修復もする必要はないですよね

There is no need for repairs, right?

だから長い間持ってたって劣化もしないし

So it won't deteriorate even if you keep it for a long time.

そっちに価値を見出す人が今度もっともっと増えてったら

If more and more people find value in that over there...

NFTの価値は上がっていくし

The value of NFTs will continue to rise.

実物の方が

The real thing is better.

やっぱりいらないよねってなっちゃう

It makes me think that I really don't need it after all.

未来が来るかもしれないし

The future may come.

これはまだ100年後何十年後わかんないですけど

This is something we won't know for another 100 years or so.

そこまで含めた実験だったわけですね

So it was an experiment that included all those aspects.

でこれが今続いてる状態

So this is the state that is currently ongoing.

というかむしろようやくスタート地点に立ったので

In other words, we've finally reached the starting point.

今が面白いんじゃないですか

Isn't now interesting?

今見といた方がいいかもしれない

You might want to see it now.

これがもう結果が出たところに

This is already at the point where results have come out.

参入しちゃっても

Even if I enter in.

もう上がりようがないかもしれないじゃないですか

It might be that we can't go any higher.

今まだ本当にまだまだ未来があるので

There is really still a lot of future ahead.

だからNFTに興味持ってる投資家の方とか

So, for those investors who are interested in NFTs.

アートコレクターは

Art collector is

まだ少しでも

Just a little more.

少なくなくはないと思うんですけど

I think there is not a small amount, but...

そうなんですね

I see.

伸びしろがある分野

Areas with room for growth

投資してみたいと思いましたか

Did you want to try investing?

もうこの10分

Just these 10 minutes.

NFTって僕はやっぱり

As for NFTs, I still...

なんか画像とかだったら

If it's something like an image

簡単にスクショしたら増やせちゃうんじゃないかとか

If I take a screenshot easily, won't I be able to increase it?

っていうので

So, that's why...

もともとそんな流行らないんじゃないかなと思ってて

I originally thought it wouldn't be that popular.

まあ思った通りになってるな

Well, it's turning out just as I thought.

投資の視点からするとね

From an investment perspective, you know.

僕はその流行ってた時も

Even during that trend, I...

投資はしてなかったんですけど

I wasn't investing, though.

でもなんかまだ全然可能性があるって

But somehow there is still a lot of possibility.

聞いてそれはすごい意外だったなっていう感じもしますね

I hear that, and it feels surprisingly impressive.

結局スクショすると確かにそうだじゃないですか

In the end, if you take a screenshot, that's certainly the case, isn't it?

でも言ってしまえば

But to put it simply

版画もコピーしちゃえばそうだし

If you just copy prints, that's how it goes.

結局実物だってできちゃうわけだから

In the end, it turns out that we can also make the real thing.

なんかそこは実はNFTだけの話じゃなくて

Actually, that's not just about NFTs.

アートってのはその危険性をはらんではいるので

Art carries that inherent danger.

そんなにだからそのコレクターからすると

Because of that, from the collector's point of view...

スクショだから本物じゃなくなるかもっていうのは

Since it's a screenshot, it might not be the real thing.

もしかしたらもともとのコレクターさんたちは

Perhaps the original collectors were...

思ってなかったのかもしれないですよね

You might not have thought that, right?

このテスタさんみたいな大富豪が

A billionaire like Mr. Testa.

美術界にというか

In the art world, or rather,

否定はできない

I cannot deny it.

すごい真顔で怖いですけど

It's scary, but your serious face is amazing.

あの参入をしてくるというか

It's like they're going to enter the market.

アートの世界にとその投資家の方というか

In the world of art and those investors, or rather.

そのパトロンでもあると思うんですけども

I think that person is also a patron.

との関係性っていうのはどういう

What kind of relationship is there?

もちつもたれつだとは思うんですけども

I believe it's a give-and-take situation.

なんかどういう関係性というか

I'm not sure what kind of relationship it is.

っていうのが理想なんでしょう

That's what the ideal is, I suppose.

やっぱりそのずっとこれまでもあったと思うんですよね

I think that has always been the case up until now.

その大名とかも

That feudal lord and others.

その時代からというか

From that era or rather

もうやっぱりこう美術家をやっぱり支えてきたのは

It turns out that what has truly supported artists is...

やっぱりパトロンだと思うんです

I think it's definitely a patron.

それってそのまあ

Well, that's...

もちろん投資の意味もあるかもしれないけど

Of course, there might also be a meaning of investment.

文化度を上げることじゃないですか

Isn't it about raising the level of culture?

文化度

Cultural level

やっぱりそのそういう人がいなかったら

After all, if there weren't people like that...

例えば浮世絵も生まれなかったかもしれないし

For example, ukiyo-e may not have been born.

いわゆるリンパとかも生まれなかったかもしれないしとか

It might be that what we call lymph never even came to be.

それこそ村上隆さんも生まれなかったかもしれない

That might mean that Takashi Murakami was never born either.

これは全部日本の文化になるわけじゃないですか

Isn't this all part of Japanese culture?

でもその日本の文化度が上がると

But as the level of Japanese culture increases,

日本の魅力が上がるわけですから

That's why Japan's charm is increasing.

日本の経済だって世界的に

Japan's economy is also global.

意味度も上がるわけで

The meaning will definitely increase.

別に美術にお金を出すってことが

It’s not like spending money on art is a big deal.

美術界だけじゃなくて

Not just in the art world.

本当に文化全体の話になるわけですよね

It really becomes a matter of the entire culture, doesn't it?

確かに確かに

Certainly, certainly.

だからそこが例えば

So, for example, there.

海外のアーティストばっかり褒めちゃってると

If you keep praising only foreign artists...

その海外に資本が流出してるもんですよね

Capital is flowing out to overseas, isn't it?

でも今こそ多分日本

But now is probably Japan.

これまでも例えばそうやってパトロネージしてきた

Until now, I have supported in that way, for example.

おかげでいろんな日本の芸術家が世界に広まってるんで

Thanks to that, various Japanese artists are spreading around the world.

ならば今後のためにもそれは続けていっていただいた方が

Then for the sake of the future, it would be better for you to continue that.

いいかなって思います

I think it will be fine.

絵画だけとか美術だけなんか特別なことに思ってるけど

I think of painting or art as something special, but...

要するに例えば大谷選手もそうで

In short, for example, player Ohtani is the same.

言い方すごく悪いですけど

I know this sounds really rude, but...

美術ってよくさっきも言った役に立たないかもって

Art might often be considered useless, as I mentioned earlier.

思うかもしれないけど

You might think that, but...

でも野球も役に立つ役に立たないって言ったら

But if you say that baseball is useful or not useful...

役に立たないじゃないですか

It’s not useful, is it?

ちょっと失礼な言い方ですけど

It's a bit of a rude way to say it, but...

まあそれだけを持ってはってことですね

Well, that means you only have that.

でも野球って面白いからみんな行くし

But baseball is interesting, so everyone goes.

野球にだからあんなお金が動くわけじゃないです

That's why so much money isn't involved in baseball.

もうみんなが面白いと思ったら

If everyone thinks it's interesting...

多分お金は動くわけですよね

Maybe the money will change hands, right?

なんか美術と野球は全然違うもんでは

Art and baseball are totally different things, aren't they?

僕はエンターテインメントとしては同じだし

I think it's the same as entertainment.

でも美術は残念ながら

But unfortunately, art...

そのさっき言った1億円プレイヤーがあんまりいないので

There aren't many players who make 100 million yen, as I just mentioned.

そうなるとクリエイティブだったら

If that's the case, then it would be creative.

お金稼げるからユーチューバーになろうとか

"Let's become a YouTuber because you can make money."

漫画家になろうとか

"Let's become a manga artist or something."

違うジャンルに行っちゃうわけです

It's going into a different genre.

それ日本特有なんですか

Is that unique to Japan?

世界でも1億円プレイヤーってあんまりいないんですか

Are there really not many players who make 100 million yen in the world?

いや世界の方がまだいます

No, there are still more in the world.

だから世界のやっぱりアートマーケットはでかいので

That's why the art market in the world is really big.

日本はやっぱりマーケットが少ないから

Japan really has a limited market after all.

同じ才能を持ってるんだったら

If you have the same talent, then...

違うところに多分みんな行っちゃう

Everyone will probably go to a different place.

海外にチャレンジする人ももちろんいますけども

There are definitely people who challenge themselves overseas, but...

だからこのままだとやっぱり日本の美術界が

So if this continues, the Japanese art world will...

自力になっていっちゃって

It's becoming self-reliant.

失礼ですけど

Excuse me, but...

なっていっちゃうから

Because it will become that way.

今こそやっぱりそこに底上げ

Now is the time to raise the bar there after all.

やっぱり文化に海外の人が来てくれるしね

After all, people from overseas come to experience our culture.

でも年間700、800行けるぐらいのギャラリーは

But galleries that can hold around 700 to 800 a year...

たくさんやってるんですよね

You're doing a lot, aren't you?

あります

There is/exists.

でもそれでも全体的にそんなに盛り上がってないって感じるんですか

But do you still feel that overall it's not that exciting?

やっぱりその

After all, that...

やっぱり美術館に行く人

After all, it's the people who go to the art museum.

僕も行きますけど

I'll go too.

美術ファンたくさんいますけど

There are many art fans.

言ってもね

Even if I say it...

全体の1から3%じゃないですか

Isn't it about 1 to 3% of the whole?

そこで回してるみたいな感じですよね

It feels like it's being turned around there, right?

確かに確かに

Certainly, certainly.

これが単純に2倍になればいいし

It would be nice if this simply doubled.

10倍になったら嬉しいしってことだけど

I'd be happy if it became ten times.

今逆によくこれで

"Now, it's quite strange that this is working."

なんとかやってきてるなって感じですよね

I feel like I'm managing somehow.

でもこれがどんどんどんどん

But this is going on and on.

これはもうどう見たって減っていく一方なので

This is clearly going to keep decreasing.

でも海外で見ると

But when you see it overseas,

海外の方が

For overseas people.

もう少しやっぱり人口は多いですよね

I suppose there are still a lot more people, right?

美術に興味持ってる人口

The population interested in art.

やっぱ日本は見てはいるけど

I am definitely watching Japan, though.

そういうこと僕みたいに年間700、800行く人は

People like me who go 700 or 800 times a year...

そこまで行かない方が面白いけど

It's more interesting not to go that far.

美術館いっぱい行く人いるけど

There are a lot of people who go to museums.

買うはやっぱりハードルがない

Buying definitely has no hurdles.

だから見てはいるけど買ってはない

So I’m watching, but I haven’t bought it.

人は多いですよね

There are many people, aren't there?

トニーさんがソフト面から面白さを伝えつつ

While Mr. Tony conveys the fun from a soft perspective,

テスタさんがハード面からキャッシュを

Mr. Testa is handling the cash from the hardware side.

キャッシュをって言うとあれですね

When you say "cache," that's what it is, right?

アートの世界を盛り上げてもらうみたいな

It feels like bringing excitement to the world of art.

そういう循環を回していくといいですよね

It would be good to keep that kind of cycle going, wouldn't it?

絶対心はやっぱ豊かになると思うんですよね

I really believe that the heart will definitely become richer.

やっぱり家に絵飾るだけでも

After all, just decorating the house with paintings...

全然違ったりするじゃないですか

It's totally different, right?

本当そういうのでは全然

That's really not the case at all.

絶対に何かしら誰かの作品は

Surely, there is something that belongs to someone.

いろんな人がいるわけだから

Because there are various kinds of people.

やっぱり自分にぴったり

It's just perfect for me after all.

自分の感性にぴったり合う人って

Someone who perfectly matches my sensibility.

必ずいると思うんですよ

I think they will definitely be there.

たくさん見てそういうのを一つ一つでも

It seems like you've seen a lot, even just one by one.

やっぱり見て楽しんで

After all, it's enjoyable to watch.

その次に所有したいと思ったら所有するんですよ

If you think you want to own something next, then you own it.

そういうのを一つ一つでも見て楽しんでその次に所有したいと思ったら所有するんですよね

If you enjoy looking at those one by one, and then if you feel like you want to own it next, you just own it.

みんながやると誰も損しないというか、いいですよね。

When everyone participates, no one loses, which is nice, isn't it?

美術ってみんなわかんないとか難しいとかおっしゃってるけど、服は選べてるじゃないですか。

People say that art is hard to understand or that they don't get it, but you can choose your clothes, can't you?

服どうやって選んでるんですかって言ったら、多分好きで選んでるわけじゃないですか。それと一緒で美術も絶対そうなんですよ。

When I asked how you choose your clothes, you probably choose them because you like them, right? It's the same with art; it’s definitely that way too.

好きか嫌いかで選べばいいだけなんだけど、服を選ぶときに理解はしないじゃないですか。

You can just choose based on whether you like it or not, but you don't really understand when you're picking out clothes, do you?

もちろんこの柄がいいなとか、この素材がいいなとか思うかもしれないけど、結構直感でみんな選んでる。

Of course, you might think that you like this pattern or this material, but everyone tends to choose based on intuition.

のに美術だけは直感で選んじゃダメみたくなってるけど。

It seems like we shouldn't choose art based solely on intuition.

確かに。ちょっと難しいっていう先入観が邪魔してる感じがしますね。

Indeed. It feels like the preconception that it's a bit difficult is getting in the way.

好きっていう。だから抽象画とかよくわかんないって言ってるけど、家にあるファブリックって基本抽象柄じゃないですかって思うし、

"I say I like it. So I often say I don’t really understand abstract art, but I think the fabrics we have at home are basically abstract patterns, right?"

それどうやって選んだんですかって言ったら多分みんな直感で、感性で選んでる。それと一緒なんだけどなって思うんですよね。

When I asked how they chose that, I think everyone probably chooses based on intuition and sensitivity. I feel like it's the same thing.

確かにね。

That's true.

テスターさんもこのアートに投資をする意味を今日は認識をしていただいたということで。

I believe the tester has come to understand the significance of investing in this art today.

帰りギャラリー寄って帰ろうかな。

I wonder if I should stop by the gallery on my way home.

そうですね。もうギャラリーごと購入していただいて、テスターギャラリーが六本木周辺に登場するかもしれませんけど。

That's right. They might purchase the entire gallery, and a tester gallery could appear around Roppongi.

でもテスタ美術館が、テスタミュージアムができたらいいですよね。

It would be nice if the Testa Museum was established.

みんな海外の人が遊びに来るかもしれないわけですからね。

Everyone might come to visit from overseas, you know.

大していいねを押してください。テスタ美術館が欲しいという方はぜひいいねを押していただいて。

Please press like if you want the Testa Art Museum.

はい、というわけで、今回ですね、アートテラーのトニーさんからまずアートに投資しようという、

Yes, so this time, we are going to start with Mr. Tony the Art Teller, who will talk about investing in art.

テーマでお話を伺いました。テスタミュージアムを楽しみに、今回は後半とさせていただきます。

I heard about the theme. I look forward to the Testa Museum, so I will conclude this part here.

どうもありがとうございました。

Thank you very much.

ありがとうございました。

Thank you very much.

The INSIGHTでございますけども、今回アートテラー、トニーさんをお招きしたアートの楽しみ方、伺いました。

Regarding the INSIGHT, we invited art teller Tony to discuss ways to enjoy art.

いかがだったでしょうか、田下さん。

How was it, Mr. Tashimo?

いや、アートアートはやっぱり、僕は全く見てなかったんですけど、ちょっと興味湧きましたし、

Well, I hadn't really seen any art at all, but it has piqued my interest a bit.

なんか1個買いたいなとはやっぱりちゃんと思いますけどね。

I do think that I want to buy at least one, after all.

来ましたね。ゴッホですか?

You’ve come, haven’t you? Is it Van Gogh?

ゴッホ?

Van Gogh?

クレマール?

Kremar?

いや。

No.

いやー、でもゴッホって、やっぱ分かるやつじゃないと、なんか分からないゴッホ買っても、なんかあれじゃない?

Well, I mean, if you don't really understand Van Gogh, buying a Van Gogh that's hard to understand feels kind of pointless, right?

そこまでいくと、本物かどうかがまず問題ですよね。

At that point, the first issue is whether it’s real or not, right?

そう。え、持ってるんですか?川田さん。

I see. Do you have it, Kawada-san?

僕はもちろん持ってないですけど。

Of course, I don't have it.

何も持ってないんですか?アート作品。

Don't you have anything? An artwork.

あのね、アートも高いのから安いのがあって、100万いかないぐらいの絵とか飾ってますよ。

You know, there are both expensive and cheap artworks, and I have paintings that are around a million yen or less on display.

えぇー。

Huh?

普通に僕好きだから。

I just like you normally.

何十万とかの?

Like hundreds of thousands?

はいはいはい。

Yes, yes, yes.

すごー。

Amazing!

逆に川田さんの作品を、

On the contrary, Kawada's works,

買うっていうこともできるんですか?

Can I also buy it?

あ、まだ売ってないですね。

Oh, it's not on sale yet.

あ、でもたまに、たまに売ってますよ。

Ah, but sometimes, they do sell it.

あの人何も知らないですよ。

That person doesn't know anything.

何も知らないです。

I don't know anything.

その作品があるわけないだろ。

That work doesn't exist, right?

売ってないだろ。

They aren't selling it, right?

そんなの。

Something like that.

ねえ。

Hey.

いじめっ子じゃないですか。

Aren't you a bully?

はい。

Yes.

まだ売ってないよ、そんなの。

It's not being sold yet, you know.

ぜひじゃあ、投資を始めていただいて。

Then, please go ahead and start investing.

売ったときはもう僕買いますから。

I'll buy it when it's sold.

すぐ買いますから。

I will buy it right away.

じゃあもう、第一村人ということで。

Well then, let's just say I'm the first villager.

村人じゃない。

I'm not a villager.

川田さん、今日いかがでしたか?

How was today, Kawata-san?

いや、あのー、テスタさんに興味持ってもらえたのは、

Well, um, I'm glad that Mr. Testa has taken an interest in me.

よかったなと思いますけどね。

I think that's great.

あと、トニーさんなんか、いいですよね。

Also, Mr. Tony is really great, isn't he?

あのー、あんまり堅苦しくアートを語ってないから、

Um, I'm not really talking about art in a very formal way, so...

すごい興味持ちますよね。

It's really interesting, isn't it?

うんうん。

Uh-huh.

元はね、なんかその、

Originally, you know, it's kind of that...

楽しいから入ってらっしゃる方なので、

Since it's fun, those who are coming in are welcome.

やっぱり楽しく話してくれるなと思いました。

I thought you really do talk enjoyably.

ありがとうございます。

Thank you.

さて、ここで実はちょっと重大発表がございまして。

Well, actually, I have a somewhat important announcement to make.

え、重大発表でなんかワクワクするよね。

Wow, a major announcement is really exciting, isn't it?

The INSIGHTなんですけれども、

It's about the INSIGHT, but...

さとみ?

Satomi?

これまでですね、

So far,

毎月石原さとみをお招きするために、

To invite Satomi Ishihara every month,

お届けをしてきたわけなんですけれども、

I have come to deliver this.

なんとここからは、

Well, from here on,

不定期となります。

It will be irregular.

ははははは。

Hahahaha.

それって、手のいい終わりってことですか?

Does that mean a good ending for the hand?

いや、不定期というのは、

Well, what I mean by irregular is that...

1ヶ月に1回じゃなくなるっていうことなので、

It means that it will no longer be once a month.

ひょっとしたら毎週っていうことですね。

It might mean every week.

もっと増える可能性があるんですか?

Is there a possibility that it could increase more?

増える可能性がある。

There is a possibility of increase.

そうなんです。

That's right.

不定期って言い方が悪いね、じゃん。

The way to say "irregular" is not good, huh?

そうです。

That's right.

不定期って言うと、なんか、

When you say irregular, it sounds like,

なんか良くないイメージがあるけど。

I have a bit of a bad image about it.

そうなんです。

That's right.

あ、違うんだね。

Ah, it's different then.

ちょっと今後の展開については、

As for the future development,

それぞれのパーソナリティが、

Each personality,

それぞれの持ち場で頑張りつつも、

While doing our best in our respective roles,

このジー・インサイトの位置づけというのをですね、

The positioning of this G-Insight, you see,

いろいろ試行錯誤をもっと大きなレベルでしていこうということになろうかと思いますので、

I think we will be trying various experiments and trial and error on a larger scale.

ちょっとその方向性を今度ビールでも飲みながら、

Let's discuss that direction while having a beer next time.

ちょっとアテスタさん飲まれないんですよね。

Well, I can't really drink, Atesta-san.

いや、全然その時は飲みますよ、それは。

No, I will definitely drink at that time.

話し合ってみたいなと思っております。

I would like to have a discussion.

はい。

Yes.

はい、というわけで、

Yes, so then,

ジー・インサイト、今回はアートテラー、

G Insight, this time it's Art Teller,

トニーさんを迎えてお届けをしてまいりました。

We have brought the delivery with Mr. Tony.

J-WAVEとラジオ日経の共同プロジェクト、

A joint project between J-WAVE and Radio Nikkei,

東京インサイトでは様々なコンテンツを配信していきます。

Tokyo Insight will deliver a variety of content.

今後もぜひご注目ください。

Please continue to pay attention in the future.

それでは今回はこの辺でお別れとなります。

Well then, this is where we part ways for now.

さようなら。

Goodbye.