第60回「きょうびの音楽シーン」後編

Chillout Radio

風流なくらし

第60回「きょうびの音楽シーン」後編

チルアウトラジオ風流の暮らし第60回前回に引き続き話し相手は仕事仲間の森川よしのりさんです

Chill Out Radio: Life in Style Episode 60. Continuing from the last episode, my conversation partner is my work colleague Yoshinori Morikawa.

このプログラムは風流の暮らしに憧れる音楽家掛川陽介がある時は仕事仲間の森林とある時はゲストの方々とある時は一人で

This program features musician Yosuke Kakagawa, who admires a refined lifestyle, sometimes with his work partner Mori, sometimes with guests, and sometimes alone.

あれこれゆるくお話をする脱力系トーク番組です

It's a relaxed talk show where we chat about various things casually.

寂しくないっていうののためにいっぱいライバーがいるんだなぁとか思うし

I think there are a lot of streamers out there to prevent loneliness.

役に立ってるよね

It's really helpful, isn't it?

多分寂しさを紛らわすのはいいと思うんですけど

I think it might be good to distract myself from loneliness.

逆に言うとこれがあるから寂しくないから人とは付き合わないとか

Conversely, this means that I don't feel lonely because I have this, so I don't engage with people.

結婚しないとか少子化はこれで起こるんじゃないかと思うぐらい寂しさはないだろうな

I think the loneliness that comes from not getting married could be a reason for the declining birthrate.

なるほど

I see.

って思いますよ

I think so.

だって目の前で喋ってるかのようにいつもこうやって

Because it always feels like you're talking right in front of me like this.

でも錯覚じゃんそれ

But that's just an illusion.

そう錯覚じゃないですか

Isn't that just an illusion?

だから目の覚める時が来るから

Because the time will come when you will awaken.

目の覚める時が来た時は

When the time comes to awaken.

あれと一緒じゃないですかホストとかと一緒じゃないですか

Isn't it the same as that? Isn't it the same as with hosts?

ホストね人もすごい盛り上がってるもんね

The hosts are really getting excited too.

不思議なんだよホストってものすごい問題になってるじゃん

It's strange, you know, hosts have become a huge problem.

実際すごいじゃんひどいじゃん

It's actually amazing, isn't it terrible?

ひどいとこはひどいんですって

It's said that the bad places are really bad.

個人も

Individuals as well.

これもちょっとあれですけど

This is also a bit of a concern, but...

今

Now

ホストの仕事やってるんですよ

I'm working as a host.

誰が

Who?

ホストの曲

Host's song

曲

Song

コールいわゆるシャンパンコール

Call, also known as champagne call.

すごい仕事だね

That's a great job!

これはお金がもらえるんで

This is because you can get paid for it.

誰がクライアントなの

Who is the client?

ホストではないんですよ

I'm not a host.

ピザ職人で

As a pizza maker

元ホストだった人がいて

There was a person who used to be a host.

超有名なピザ職人なんだけど

He's a super famous pizza chef.

何故か知らないけどホストの

I don't know why, but the host's...

もう一回勉強に行くって

"I'm going to study one more time."

ホストに行って

Go to the host.

ホストの仕事をしてるんですよ

I'm working as a host.

一回勉強って何だろう

What is studying, anyway?

分かんないですけど

I don't know, but...

でホストって

So, what is a host?

アコギのやつもあれば

If there's also an acoustic guitar one.

すごい健全なのもあるんですって

There are some really wholesome ones, apparently.

健全なホスト

Healthy host

そうあの普通に

Yeah, just normally.

ホストクラブ

Host club

普通のちゃんと

Ordinary properly

良識的なホストクラブ

A sensible host club.

でちゃんとした

It was properly done.

そのある程度のレベルの

that certain level of

お手なしするだけ

Just assist you.

お金をどんどん

Money is flowing in abundantly.

だって買収させるとか

Because you're making me acquire it.

とかっていうところまで行くような

It's about reaching a point like that.

ホストじゃない

Not a host.

普通の今までの昔ながらの

Ordinary traditional

あの女の人を接客して

Serve that woman.

とかっていうレベル

That's the level we're talking about.

でそれがどう起こしてきて

So how did that happen?

今そのビジュアル系みたいな

Now, like that visual kei.

すごいねスターでしょ

You're amazing, right? You're a star!

ってなってくると

When it comes to that

その人のために熱狂的な

Enthusiastic for that person.

人がお客さんに出てきちゃって

People have come out to the customers.

どんどんお金使う

I keep spending money more and more.

見ついでってっていう

"I'm saying it's a find."

悪い方にどんどん行っちゃってる

It's getting worse and worse.

1位にさせてあげたくてみたいな

I want to help you reach first place.

っていうので行くでしょ

So we're going with that, right?

そうばっかりじゃないんですよ

It’s not always like that.

普通に

Normally.

そればっかりじゃないんだね

It's not just that, is it?

っていうのはあるらしい

It seems that there is such a thing.

いやそう

No way.

もちろんそうでしょうけど

Of course, that would be the case.

そうじゃなきゃやってられないですよね

If that's not the case, then I can't do it.

みんなが沼に落とすみたいなやつばっかりやってたら

If everyone is just doing things like pushing each other into the swamp...

そりゃそうだとは思うんだけど

I think that's true, but...

でも俺はすごい不思議だなと思ってて

But I find it really mysterious.

もうすごいニュースになって

It's already become amazing news.

さ大問題になったじゃん

It became a big problem, didn't it?

そうなんですよ

That's right.

本当に大問題になってるんだけど

It's really becoming a big problem.

なんでさホストそんな大変なの

Why is hosting so difficult?

ホステスでそんな大変なことになってないのに

It's not that being a hostess is such a difficult thing.

ホステス昔からいたから

The hostess has been around since a long time ago.

売りかけってやつじゃないですか

Isn't that called an accounts receivable?

でもほら同じことだってあるでしょうね

But you know, there are probably similar things too.

分かるんですね

I see you understand.

だってあれか男を無理やり阪神させるとかいう

Because, is it that they're forcibly making men do Hanshin?

筋書きにならないから問題にならないのか

Is it that it doesn't cause any problems because it doesn't follow the script?

そうかも

It might be.

逆だと

It's the opposite.

男だと会社の金を使い込んでみたいな

A man might want to embezzle company funds.

そっかそういうのでもうすでに昔からそういうのがあって

I see, so there have already been things like that for a long time.

いっぱいあったんじゃないですか

Didn't you have a lot?

それがそうだ

That's right.

だからなんで俺ってホステスのやつが

So why am I the one with the hostess?

そんな問題にならないんだろうと思ってたけど

I thought it wouldn't be such a problem.

もうあちこち昔からそこら辺で

It's been around here for a long time.

ホステスのやつはもうここ30年40年

The hostess thing has been going on for 30 or 40 years now.

40年もうずっと長い歴史が

For 40 years, there has been a long history.

歴史でいろんなことがあったじゃないですか

There have been various events in history, haven't there?

もう大変なのが状態化してるんだね

It's becoming a situation that's really difficult, isn't it?

じゃないですか

Isn't that right?

事件にならないっていうか

It's not that it won't become an incident.

分かんないけど

I don't know, but...

そういうことなのかな

I wonder if that's how it is.

いや俺不思議だなと思って

Well, I find it quite mysterious.

なんでそんなホストってそんなすごいんだろうと思って

I wonder why that host is so amazing.

ホストもそれやりすぎて

The host is overdoing it too.

今健全化してるんだけど

I'm currently getting better.

今健全化してるというか売りかけ禁止になったりとか

It's now being normalized, or rather, they have prohibited accounts receivable.

そうなの

I see.

だから要するにお金

So, in other words, it's money.

売りかけがあるから

Because there are accounts receivable.

お前売りかけこれないと俺困るからみたいなので

I can't have you not selling it, or I'll be in trouble.

お前働いてこいよとかっていう話になるわけでしょ

It would turn into a conversation like "You should go work."

要するに借金させないっていう考え方じゃないですか

In short, isn't it a way of thinking that prevents people from going into debt?

なるほどね

I see.

今や

Now

なるほど

I see.

多分

Maybe

それはでもどうなんどれぐらい抑止されるんだろうね

I wonder how much that would actually deter things.

個人的な借金とかだってまでは

"Even personal debts..."

規制できないだろうからね

Because it probably can't be regulated.

そうか影響力がね

I see, it's about influence.

なんでホストの話になったんだっけね

Why did we start talking about hosts again?

なんかそうか

I see.

なるほどね

I see.

なんでしたっけ

What was it again?

いやいいですよ

No, that's fine.

へー

Oh really?

パトロールしてるとね

When I'm on patrol, you know.

さっきTikTokのパトロールで

I was on patrol for TikTok earlier.

個人的にグッときたやつとかはありますか

Is there anything that personally moved you?

なんか

Somehow

俺も見たことあるかもしれない

I might have seen it too.

なんか言ってたのなんだよ

What were you saying?

中国の歌う人

A singer from China.

ベトナム?

Vietnam?

なんかその辺の感じのハーフ

It's like a half who has a vibe around that area.

でも中国のとどっかのハーフ

But I'm half Chinese or something.

マレーシアかな

Is it Malaysia?

わかんないけど

I don't know, but...

さっきちょっと見せてくれたけどすごいね

You showed me a little earlier, and it's amazing.

すごいうまい

Really delicious.

いい歌だよね

It's a nice song, isn't it?

いい声だよね

You have a nice voice.

いい声ですよねあの子

That child has a nice voice, doesn't she?

いいですね

That sounds good.

あの子は何ですかじゃあ

What is that child then?

どっかに所属してるんですか

Are you affiliated with any organization?

何ですか中国の人?

What is it, Chinese person?

わかんないです

I don't understand.

中国の何かから流れてきただけなので

It's just something that flowed in from China.

なるほど

I see.

すごいよね

That's amazing, isn't it?

あの仕組み自体がすごいし

That mechanism itself is amazing.

あれもう包括契約なんです音楽は今は

That's already an inclusive contract; music is like that now.

かつては日本は確か

Once, Japan was surely

日本はっていうか大体の国は

In Japan, or rather in most countries...

なんかすごい揉めてましたもんね

It seemed like there was a lot of fighting going on.

TikTokの著作権に関して

Regarding TikTok's copyright

今は多分包括したはずです

I probably included everything now.

クリアしたんすか

Did you clear it?

そっか

I see.

あれは確かにすごい世界だなと

That is certainly an amazing world.

想 Fraser

Think of Fraser.

類似だなと思って

I thought it was similar.

鍧乃金

The phrase "鍧乃金" translates to "seasoned gold" in English.

ただろうとやっていけないよね

It can't be helped, can it?

ちゃんとおもてなしの心がある人達がパッショ陰陽家ならどたる単なる何個 War

People who truly have a spirit of hospitality, if they are passionate Onmyoji, will not just create a mere war.

ギギギのとこかギギギのとこだね両方両方パーが熱量があれば承認要求と表の使用心とそうか表の演じ apprenticeの心と仕事でает

It's either at Gigi Gigi or at Gigi Gigi, both have the heat of desire for approval and the intention of using the surface, and I see it's the heart of an apprentice acting on the surface and work.

そっか面倒しそうな企業ね

I see, it seems like a troublesome company.

おもてなしの心によって承認欲求が満たされるっていうループかもしれないね

It may be a loop where the desire for approval is fulfilled by a spirit of hospitality.

仕組みかもしれないから頑張れてしまうみたいな

It seems like I can manage to keep going because it might be a system.

そうっすね

That's right.

でもねそう思い出した

But you know, I just remembered that.

さっきねモリリンが音楽そのものの商品価値っていうかの部分よりも

Earlier, Moririn mentioned that the part about the intrinsic value of music itself is more important than the product value.

音楽そのもののパワーより俗人的っていうの

It's more about the human aspect than the power of music itself.

そのやってる人の人間の方だよね

It's the person who is doing that, right?

あの推しに関してもそうだろうし

It’s probably the same with that favorite of mine.

そうっすね

That's right.

それがどんどん極まってどんどん極まってきてますよね

It's becoming more and more extreme, isn't it?

そうっすね

That's right.

その書かれたり歌われる曲ももちろんそうなんだろうけど

Of course, the songs that are written or sung are probably like that too.

歌ったり作ったりしてる演奏したりしてる人そのもののパワーというか

It's like the power of the person themselves who is singing, creating, and performing.

そうっすね

That's right.

新体制っていうのは

The new system is...

でもなんかどんどんなんかこの今の生成AIのことを考えると

But somehow, the more I think about the current state of generative AI...

生感みたいなところに行くんじゃないかとは思ってるんですけどね

I think we're going to a place that feels alive.

その反動というか逆を行く

It's a reaction, or rather, going in the opposite direction.

逆に魅力的というか

On the contrary, it's quite attractive.

そうだよねそれは多分そうでしょうね

Yeah, that's probably true.

なおさら各社がかかるかもね

It might be even more burdensome for each company.

生っていうライブみたいな

It's like a live performance.

本当に演奏してますみたいなのを

It’s like I'm really playing.

みせる事が差別感みたいな

It feels like showing it is a form of discrimination.

まあでもそれは既に起こってるもんね

Well, that has already happened, hasn't it?

だって激うまのギターの女の子とか

Because there are girls who play guitar really well.

ドラム叩いてる人とかいますよ

There are people who play the drums.

まあ女の子が結構やっぱ話題になりやすい気がするんだけど

Well, I feel like girls tend to become a topic of conversation quite easily.

ドラムのとベースピアノを逆立ちして弾くとかとか

Playing the drums and the bass piano while doing a handstand, or something like that.

サーカスみたいなことになってるじゃん

It's like a circus, isn't it?

そうで需要あるなと思いますけどね

I think it's certainly in demand.

でもあれさ、逆さまにひっくり返ってピアノを激馬の早弾きしてる激派手なピアニストの

But you know, it's about a flamboyant pianist who's playing the piano at breakneck speed, turned upside down.

それはインスタからなんかにもあるから見たことあるんだけど

I've seen that on Instagram or something like that.

あれってその人自身の作品が売れるかっていうとどうなんだっていう音楽作品が

It raises the question of whether that person’s own works will sell when it comes to music.

全くわかんないですね

I don't understand at all.

あれって逆さま込みで

That's including upside down.

まあビデオしか売れないんじゃないですか

Well, I guess only videos will sell, right?

そしたら別にビデオ売らなくてもいいって話になるんじゃないですか

Then it would mean that there's no need to sell the video, right?

YouTubeの再生回数とかでいいんじゃないですかそういうと

Isn't the number of views on YouTube enough for that?

そうだよね音楽そのものを売る必要ないんだよね

That's right, we don't need to sell the music itself.

パフォーマンスを売りにしてますからね

We are selling performance, you see.

だから音楽よりもコンテンツっていうことはそういうことですよね

So when we say content rather than music, that's what it means, right?

コンテンツっていうかまあその

Well, it's more like content, I guess.

作品じゃないんですよね今ね

It's not a work right now.

コンテンツって言い方がなんかよくわかんないっていうか難しいんだけど

I find the word "content" a bit difficult to understand or confusing.

うん

Yeah.

今森のAIつったけど

I said it's the AI of the forest now.

うん

Yeah.

確かにAIが極まってくるとさらにそうなんだよね

Certainly, as AI continues to advance, it becomes even more so.

ねえAIね

Hey, AI.

すでにもうなんかAIのテストなんか

It's already some kind of AI test or something.

仕事仲間のザワくんがザワくんとかザワくんの中

My coworker Zawa-kun is in Zawa-kun or inside Zawa-kun.

もう一人の友達の仕事仲間の人とか

Like a coworker of another friend.

めっちゃAIを研究パトロールしてるっぽいけど

It seems like you're really patrolling AI research.

俺もちょっとそれをそうなんだってやってみたけど

I also tried doing that a bit, you know?

結構すごいとこまで来てるもんね

You've come quite a long way, haven't you?

うん

Yeah.

でもやっぱり熱量が足りないんですよ

But still, the enthusiasm just isn't enough.

あーそうだよねそこだよね

Ah, that's right, it's there, isn't it?

そこはなんか出てくるような気がしますね

I have a feeling that something will come out from there.

それ自体を

Itself.

うん

Yeah.

やっぱフィニッシュに持ってく時には

When it comes to bringing it to a finish, after all...

やっぱりクリエイターの力っていうのが発揮されるなとは思いますけど

I do think that the power of creators is really showcased.

これが熱量かじゃあもうねやっぱ熱

Is this the heat? Well, it really is heat after all.

熱量ってなんかもう熱量ってこれあれできないじゃないですか

Energy is something that you can't really do anything about, right?

数値化できないっていうかなんかうまく表現できないからあれだけど

It's not that it can't be quantified, but I just can't express it well, so it's like that.

なんかちょっと違う気がするんですよね

I feel like something is a bit off.

いやわかるわかる

Yeah, I understand, I understand.

妙な思い込みとかね

Strange misconceptions, you know.

なんか変な感じとか

It feels kind of strange.

うん

Yeah.

違和感とか

Feeling of discomfort, or sense of incongruity.

うん

Yeah.

まあでも生成AIのやつでも違和感みたいなのがいっぱい出てくるんですけど

Well, there are many things that feel off even with generative AI.

違和感もパラメータに入れられるんですよね

You can also include discomfort as a parameter, right?

うん

Yeah.

と思うあれは

I think that is...

あのね今なんかもうめっちゃこれ普通の話だけど

You know, right now this is just a really ordinary conversation, but...

この間アモリンとも同席してたあの映像監督の映像の人とかと話してた

The other day, I was talking with that video director who was also with Amorin.

映像監督の映像の人とかと話してた

I was talking with the video director and the people from the video team.

映像監督の映像の人とかと話してた時に思ったけど

I thought about it when I was talking with the people from the video director's team.

あの例えば映像

For example, that footage.

なんていうの発注物の音楽とかだと

What do you mean by the music for the ordered items?

映像の監督から発注されてるやつとかだと

It's something that's been commissioned by the video director.

なんていうのかな

What should I say?

小直しがあるじゃないですか

Isn't there a small correction?

モディファイがあるじゃないですか

There is a modify, isn't there?

小直しではなく大直しの時もあるし

Sometimes it's not just a small adjustment, but a major overhaul.

そういうのにこう

Like that, in this way.

なんていうのかな

I wonder what to say.

小回りがきかないかもしれないね今んとこねAIだとね

It might not be very flexible right now, especially with AI.

うんうん

Uh-huh.

そうですね

That's right.

どう直すかっていう時に直すかっていうと

When it comes to how to fix it, it’s about whether to fix it or not.

直すための精度が低いっていうかそのプロンプトを書くのが大変かも

It's not that the accuracy for fixing it is low, but it might be difficult to write that prompt.

そもそも直せる能力がありつつAI使ってるんだったらいいんだけど

If you have the ability to fix it in the first place, then using AI is fine.

全くその完全AIプロパーで音楽作ってると音楽AIに指示しなきゃいけないからその直しも

If I'm creating music entirely with that complete AI, I have to give instructions to the music AI, so that needs to be adjusted too.

それは結構

That's fine.

汲み取ってくんねーなーみたいな風になりかねないなとは思うけど

I can't help but think that it might end up feeling like you're not really picking up on things, you know?

思いますよ

I think so.

あとはまあでもそのうちあれなんじゃないか精度が上がっていけば

Well, I guess if the accuracy improves eventually, it might be fine.

本当にない

There really isn't any.

ねえそのうち

Hey, someday.

そうなってくるともう生成AIに勝手にこんな感じの今日さ聞きたいんだけどって言ったら勝手に流れてきたら別にあのなんか人の作品とか関係なくなってくる時代来ちゃうかもしれない

If that happens, we might enter an era where it doesn't really matter about human creations anymore, as you could just say to generative AI, "I’d like to hear something like this today," and it would automatically generate it for you.

来ちゃうかもしれないですかね

It might come, I guess.

でも誰それが作ったみたいなさっきの話に戻ってくるんじゃ

But it seems like we're going back to that earlier conversation about who made it.

そうだから

That's why.

誰それ俺の好きな

Who is that person I like?

印必要ですよね

A stamp is necessary, right?

何々が作った

Made by someone.

でその人が作った曲なんだっていうのがやっぱやっぱ大事になってくるのかな

So I guess it becomes important that it's a song made by that person.

大事ですよね

It's important, isn't it?

かな

Kana

うん

Yeah.

そうであって欲しいですけども

I hope that is the case.

ねえそうであって欲しいよね俺ら的には立場的には

Hey, I hope that's the case for us, considering our positions.

いやだからだからそうすると音楽は別にながらで流れてればいいっていうことになるとっていう話ですけどね

Well, that means if that's the case, it's fine for the music to just play in the background, right? That's the point of the conversation.

うんうんうんうん

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

その今日はこんな気分になるねって言ったら生成されたものだけ聴いてるっていうのがあると別に思い入れも思い入れもないしね

If you say, "Today makes me feel this way," then just listening to what was generated doesn't really hold any attachment or sentiment.

音もなくなってくじゃないですか

Isn't the sound going away?

そうだね

That's right.

ただ流れてればいい

Just let it flow.

求めるものが変わってくるよね音楽

What you're seeking in music changes, doesn't it?

うんうん

Uh-huh.

アーティスト性とか関係

Related to artistry.

だけど気分だからこんな気分だからとかでそもそも音楽あの聴くっていうねことそういう場面ばっかりじゃないだろうと思うんだけど

But I think it’s not always about just listening to music because of how you feel or for that kind of mood.

僕らはねでもなんか最近の人なんか流れて

We're like, but recently people seem to be flowing.