ウォー・ギルト・インフォーメイション・プログラム④ 歴史研究家シン、編集者・前田守人教育勅語とは from Radiotalk

紙本櫻士（カミモトオオシ）

トクトクトーク！　つながるつなげる Radio

それでは4日目です前田さんよろしくお願いします

Well then, it's the fourth day. Maeda-san, please take care of it.

はい戦後の日本人再教育プログラム

Yes, post-war Japanese re-education program.

ウォーギルトインフォメーションプログラムをテーマにしていってるんですけども

I'm focusing on a theme related to the War Guilt Information Program.

教育現場ですごいそういったことが行われて

It seems that amazing things are happening in the educational field.

メディアでも行われたっていうことは伝えてきたんですけども

I have communicated that it has been reported in the media.

特に先生の側も変わってきたよねっていうのと

Especially, the teacher's side has changed too, hasn't it?

教科書って言うんですかね変わったんですけども

I wonder if it's called a textbook. It's changed, though.

それまでは教育直後みたいなのがあって

Until then, there was something like a direct education.

それも結構随分変わったかなと思うんですけど

I think that has changed quite a bit as well.

新さんこの辺詳しいと思うんですけども

I think Shin-san is familiar with this area.

はい教育直後今回7月に都知事選の時に

Yes, immediately after the education, during the gubernatorial election in July this time.

玉上さんが教育直後の復活なんてね

Mr. Tamagami's revival right after the education, huh?

いうことを言ってましたけども

They were saying something like that.

教育直後って中身を

Right after education, the content is...

私明治神宮にさっきも言ったように

As I mentioned earlier, I'm at Meiji Shrine.

毎月というか新月ごとに行ってるんですが

I do it every month, or rather every new moon.

そこで配ってる教育直後も

Even right after distributing education there

医薬がもう現代語にしてるって言っても

Even if you say that medicine has already been translated into modern language,

全然チン思うにが

I can't really think about it at all.

チン思うにってチンって天皇自ら

In my opinion, it’s the Emperor himself.

私が思うになんですけど

I think that...

国民の皆さんって訳してるしね

They are translating it as "the people."

全然違ってるというか

It's completely different, or rather...

意味合いも教育直後の中身を簡単に言ったら

To put it simply, the meaning and content right after education are...

実はこれ天皇陛下の感謝状なんですよ

In fact, this is a letter of appreciation from His Majesty the Emperor.

要は皇祖皇祖最初に皇祖神武天皇以来の

In short, it is about the founding emperor, starting from the first emperor, Emperor Jimmu.

全ての天皇が願ってることを

What all emperors wish for.

国民が賢く国民が愛深く国民が力があったから

Because the citizens were wise, because the citizens loved deeply, because the citizens had strength.

この国をここまで長く続けてくることができましたと

We have been able to keep this country going for so long.

で明治維新以降

Since the Meiji Restoration.

中に外に国内にも国外にも思想の違う

Inside and outside, both domestic and international, there are differences in thought.

考えの違う人たちと対してかなきゃならなくなったと

I have to confront people who think differently.

だから今まで以上に知恵深く愛深く団結して

So let us unite with even greater wisdom and love than before.

この国をさらに繁栄してって欲しいっていう願いが

I have a wish for this country to prosper even more.

簡単に言うとそういうこと書いてあるんですよ

In simple terms, that's what it says.

でもその団結っていう部分とって

But that part about unity...

また軍需国家になるのかというふうに

"Will we become a military power again?"

大体左翼の人たちは

Generally, people on the left...

そこを批判するんですよね

That's where they are criticizing.

教育長号ってすごく今大きなもの

The superintendent's office is something really big right now.

戦時中にもなってたんですけど

It was happening even during the war.

僕教育長号は発表された時の新聞を見たことがあるんですよ

I have seen the newspapers from when the Education Director was announced.

明治かな

Is it Meiji?

すごく小さい記事だったんだので

It was a very small article.

こういうのがありましたっていうだけで

Just that there was something like this.

そんな重要視してないんですよね

It's not something that I consider that important.

市内のマスコミも

City media also

だから言ってることは今言ったら感謝してるだけなんですよ確かに

What I'm saying is that if I say it now, I'm just expressing my gratitude, that's true.

そうなんですよ

That's right.

そんな大きな話じゃなかったもともと

It wasn't such a big deal to begin with.

もともとはですね

Originally, you see...

これでも実は不責があって

Actually, there is a lack of responsibility in this.

この教育直後を

After this education.

直後だから天皇陛下が意図することを

Right after, what His Majesty the Emperor intends.

当時の有識者がまとめて書いたものなので

It is something that was compiled and written by knowledgeable individuals of the time.

早直ってなると玉音放送みたいに

When it comes to an early recovery, it's like the Imperial Rescript.

直接喋ったことですけど

I've spoken directly about this.

意図することをもんでもんでもみ上げて

I will ponder and ponder over what I intend.

文書化してるので

I'm documenting it.

これが要はどうやったら国民に伝わるのかなので

The key is how to communicate this to the people.

さらっとしてるんですけど

It's smooth, though.

実は深い内容があって

Actually, there is a deeper meaning.

でこの教育直後の前の明治4年から7年までかけて

During the period from the fourth to the seventh year of Meiji, immediately after this education.

連載していた学問のすすめ

The Promised Advancement of Learning

この福沢諭吉の天は人の上に人を作らず

"God does not create one person above another."

人の下に人を作らずっていうところから始まって

It starts from the idea that one should not create a person beneath another person.

ではあるけれども

Well then, however...

天はそうだけど

That's how it is with heaven.

実際はそうなってませんねと

In reality, that's not the case.

で日本この明治維新以降

Since the Meiji Restoration in Japan.

日本だけじゃなくて

Not just in Japan.

世界を見つめたら

When I looked at the world

もう全然天が願ってること違うじゃないかと

Isn't it completely different from what heaven wishes for?

じゃあそれを願ってるような

Well, it seems like you're wishing for that.

神様願ってるような

It seems like a wish from God.

そういった世界にするにはどうしたらいいか

What should we do to create such a world?

それには知恵が必要ですよ

It requires wisdom for that.

それには愛が必要ですよ

It requires love for that.

それには行動できる

I can take action on that.

それだけの力が必要ですよ

You need that much strength.

だからそういう学問をしっかり

So you should study that kind of scholarship thoroughly.

学びましょうということで

Let's learn.

17巻連載してるんですよね

It's been serialized for 17 volumes, hasn't it?

その17巻連載の中で

In that volume 17 serialization.

個人の幸せと

Personal happiness and

社会の幸せ

Happiness of society

世界の幸せのために必要な

Necessary for the happiness of the world

道徳教育をしっかりしましょう

Let's make sure to provide solid moral education.

ということで

So, that's it.

大体1巻が300万部売れたそうですね

It seems that the first volume sold about 3 million copies.

当時明治の人口って3000万人ぐらいですから

At that time, the population in the Meiji era was around 30 million.

10人に1人が

1 in 10 people.

当時大家族ですから

Because we were a large family back then.

一家に

In a household

一軒に一冊

One book per house.

買ってたんじゃないかと

I was wondering if you had bought it.

しかも今みたいな出版物っていうか

Moreover, publications like the one now...

和紙に

to washi (Japanese paper)

一応印刷技術あるから

I have printing technology, just in case.

印刷か筆書きかあれですけど

It's a matter of whether it's printed or handwritten.

そういったものだったって言ったら

If I said it was something like that.

ものすごく貴重なものを

Something extremely valuable.

それだけ国民が読んでいたっていう

It means that the people were reading that much.

すごいですね

That's amazing!

すごいんですよ

It's amazing.

そういう土台があっての国民が

It is the people who are based on such a foundation.

知恵というか

It's more like wisdom.

教育がされてる中でのこの文章だから

Because this sentence is within the context of education.

もう読んだだけで

Just by reading it already.

何を天皇が意図してるのかっていう

What the emperor intends.

だから自分たち頑張んなきゃいけないなって

So we have to work hard ourselves.

そういうのが

That kind of thing.

この国や世界を

This country and the world.

本当に発行一流

Really top-notch issuance.

全人類が家族のようになるっていうことに

The idea that all of humanity becomes like a family.

努めていこうって思いが

I intend to make an effort.

本当に強く

Really strong.

この心の底に根付くような

Like something that takes root deep within my heart.

響くような文章だったんだろうなと

I guess it was a resonant piece of writing.

我々が読むとさらっと

When we read it, it's quite straightforward.

この短い文章なんですけど

It's a short sentence, but...

そこを本当に

Really there.

今の若い人たちにもしっかりと伝えていきたいなと

I want to make sure to convey this clearly to the young people of today.

いうふうに思うんですけど

I think it feels like that.

僕とか前田さんは

Me and Maeda-san

もう教育直後から離れた

I have already separated from education right after it.

影響を受けてない人たちである

They are people who are not influenced.

多分ね

Maybe.

あのそうなんですけどね

Well, that's the thing...

さっきしんさんがおっしゃった

What Mr. Shin said a moment ago.

発行一流って言葉も

The phrase "発行一流って言葉も" translates to "The term 'top-tier publication' as well."

すごくね

That's amazing!

軍国主義の悪い言葉みたいな感じで

It feels like a bad word associated with militarism.

戦後教育の中で言われてるんですけども

It is said in post-war education, but...

本来は違いますよね

It's originally different, isn't it?

これも禁止用語になってます?

Is this also a prohibited term?

なってるかも

It might be happening.

禁止用語じゃないと思うんですけども

I don't think it's a forbidden term, though.

なんか悪い

I'm sorry about something.

悪い言葉と言われてるんですけども

It's said to be a bad word, but...

言葉として

As a word.

世界を悪い方向に持っていくようなイメージで

With an image of leading the world in a bad direction.

使われてるんだと思うんですけども

I believe it is being used.

そうじゃないですよね

That's not it, is it?

そうですね発行って四方八方全部

That's right, issuance is all around in every direction.

全人類っていうことを象徴してるんですけど

It symbolizes all of humanity.

発行っていうふうな表現をしたのは

The expression "issuing" was used.

実は我々の先祖は神様で

In fact, our ancestors were gods.

神様を中心とする全人類なんですよ

It is all of humanity centered around God.

これを発行と

This will be issued.

で一流っていうのは

Being top-notch means...

一つ屋根の下で暮らす家族のように

Like a family living under one roof.

っていう意味合いで

In that sense.

でも宇宙の右を

But to the right of space

表現してるのは

What is being expressed is

人間だけが仲良しさになるんじゃなくて

It's not just humans who become friends.

この世は死んだ晩生宇宙全部

This world is the entire dead late-born universe.

だから自然破壊はとんでもよくないし

So destroying nature is absolutely not acceptable.

動物や昆虫や

Animals and insects and

すべてが調和する

Everything is in harmony.

要は大調和ですよね

In short, it's a great harmony, isn't it?

日本が目指してきた

What Japan has aimed for.

この大調和の思想っていうのが

This idea of great harmony is...

この発行一流という

This issue is top-notch.

四つの言葉に込められている

It is packed with four words.

それをなんか

Something like that.

日本の軍国主義は

Japanese militarism

世界を支配するみたいなキーワードで

Keywords that suggest ruling the world.

この発行一流を使って

Using this issuance type.

そういう風なイメージを持たせてるんですけど

It gives that kind of impression, doesn't it?

ハワイへ新地盤攻撃だって

They're attacking a new base in Hawaii.

日本が新地盤行ってから

Since Japan went to the new ground.

西海岸まで攻めようなんて

"Let's attack all the way to the West Coast."

一ミリも持ってませんもんね

I don't have even a millimeter of it, do I?

むしろアメリカずっと傍聴してて

Rather, America has been listening all along.

ハワイまで来て

Come all the way to Hawaii.

そこから日本に来て

From there, come to Japan.

日本とぶつかって

Colliding with Japan.

今やもう中東まで行ってる

Now, it's even gone as far as the Middle East.

っていうような力関係だけど

It's a power dynamic like that.

なんか日本が攻めてったんですよ

Japan seemed to be attacking or advancing somehow.

みたいな教育を我々は受けてます

We are receiving an education like that.

そうなんです

That's right.

アメリカ自体がね

The United States itself, you know.

1776年に独立した後に

After gaining independence in 1776

最初13

First 13

東部地区でね

In the eastern region.

13くらいの地区だったんですけど

It was around district 13.

それが

That's it.

ちょっとずつ広げていくんですよね

You gradually expand it, don’t you?

海側からずっと海に大変より来たんですよね

I've been coming from the seaside all the way from the ocean, you know.

大体五大湖の辺りまでは

"About up to the area of the Great Lakes."

1800年代くらいまで

Until around the 1800s.

占領するんだけども

I will occupy it, though.

その後この真ん中のエリアっていうのは

After that, this central area...

フランスから買い取って

Buy it from France.

そのもうちょっと

A little bit more of that.

西部側によって

By the western side.

僕はメキシコから買い取るんですよね

I am going to buy it from Mexico.

分取った方がいい

It's better to take your share.

いいように言ったんかもしれないけど

They might have said it in a nice way, but...

アラスカはロシアから買い取る

Alaska will be purchased from Russia.

今

Now

上野さんおっしゃったように

As Mr. Ueno mentioned,

その後にハワイまで占領しちゃうと

After that, we'll end up occupying Hawaii.

平和

Peace

ほっとくとどんどん拡張しちゃうんだけど

If you leave it alone, it will keep expanding more and more.

一応その辺で落ち着いたっていうのが

I guess that means I've settled down around there for the time being.

今のアメリカ合衆国ですよね

It's the current United States, isn't it?

だから別に

So it doesn't matter.

日本とドイツとイタリアは

Japan, Germany, and Italy

当時なんで

Why at that time?

そういうふうに

In that way.

拡張主義取ったかっていうと

Are you asking if we adopted expansionism?

植民地がなくて

Without colonies.

経済的にもう

I'm already economically.

落ち着いていけなかったんですよね

I couldn't calm down, you see.

羨ましかったんですよ

I was envious.

植民地取ってさ

"Let's take the colony."

反映してくる

It will be reflected.

50年とか100年前

50 or 100 years ago.

前の先輩たちを見て

Looking at the previous seniors

自分たちもそれやりたいと思ったんだけど

We thought we wanted to do that too.

植民地政策やってて

Implementing colonial policies.

これ悪いことなんじゃないかっていう風に

I feel like this might be a bad thing.

反省してる時に

When I am reflecting.

やったんですよ

I did it.

日本とドイツ

Japan and Germany

最初にやったのは

What I did first was

スペインでありポルトガルであり

It is both Spain and Portugal.

スペイン

Spain

ポルトガルイギリスフランス

Portugal, England, France

その辺オランダとかが

Around that area, like the Netherlands.

アフリカとかアジアを植民地に

Colonizing Africa and Asia

反映したんですね

You reflected on it, didn't you?

まあまあひどいもんですよ

It's pretty terrible.

結局中東にしろ

In the end, it's also the Middle East.

アフリカにしろアジアにしろ

Whether it's Africa or Asia.

あちこちやられるんですけども

I get hurt in various places, you know.

それを

That.

遅れちゃいけないって入っていったのが

I went in thinking I shouldn't be late.

ドイツ

Germany

遅れた

I'm late.

そうですよ

That's right.

遅れて起こったんですね

You woke up late, didn't you?

ドイツと日本とイタリアは

Germany, Japan, and Italy are

僕らがね学生の頃っていうか

Back when we were students, or rather,

中学生ぐらいの時

Around the time I was in middle school.

モテる国とモタザル国っていう分け方をして

Dividing countries into those that are popular and those that are not.

分けてたんだけども

I was separating it, though.

連合国側はモテる国で

The Allied powers are attractive countries.

数字国側は

The side of the digital nation

モタザル国っていう教え方して

Teach it as the Kingdom of Motazaru.

今はそれ教科書から消えてるみたいなんですけども

It seems that it has now disappeared from the textbook.

数字国って言い方も

The term "digital nation" as well.

本当はなかったみたいなことを

It seems like it really didn't happen.

ウォー・ギルト・インフォーメイション・プログラム④ 歴史研究家シン、編集者・前田守人 教育勅語とは from Radiotalk

ウォー・ギルト・インフォーメイション・プログラム④ 歴史研究家シン、編集者・前田守人教育勅語とは from Radiotalk