21,04,11瑞因寺 飯田さんとの対談02【いま・ここ、念仏】 from Radiotalk

仏陀のお便り

Buddha's Letter

お経に写しむ毎朝の10分間

"Transcribing sutras for 10 minutes every morning."

こんにちは

Hello

日曜トーク

Sunday Talk

今回も飯田さんにお越しいただきました

This time, we have Mr. Iida here again.

さて前回は最後に電話がなってしまいました

Well, last time the phone rang at the end.

すみません本当にハプニング

I'm sorry, it was really a surprise.

これもライブ感があります

This also has a sense of live presence.

その中で今日は前回の次というところもあって

Today, it's also because we're continuing from where we left off last time.

今ここという感じといいますか

It's like saying "here and now."

自分の時間軸上にそれはないというところの終わりですけど

That's the end of it not existing on my timeline, but...

今ここというところ

Right here and now.

このところを少しお話してくださっている途中だったと思いますので

I believe you were in the midst of discussing this point for a bit.

よかったら聞かせてもらえたらなと思っています

I would like to hear it if you don't mind.

改めてよろしくお願いします

Thank you in advance.

よろしくお願いします

Thank you in advance.

そうですね今ここ

That's right, now here.

念仏の念も今に心

The thought of the Nembutsu is now in my heart.

仏と書いて念仏

The character for "Buddha" is written as "Nembutsu."

最近何か言ってるのが

Recently, I've been saying something.

今に心で仏になろうっていう

"Now, let's become a Buddha in our hearts."

要は時間軸に自分がもう仏様なんですよ

In short, on the time axis, I am already a Buddha.

自分軸にいると自分になるっていうか

When you are centered on yourself, it's like you become yourself.

自ら分けちゃうっていう

"I'll divide it myself."

自ら分けちゃってる

"I'm dividing it myself."

自らと書いて自分

"Write as oneself."

そうそうとかね

Yeah, that's right.

そういうことで

That's how it is.

もともと一個だったものを分けて捉えるっていう

It's about perceiving something that was originally one as being divided.

分けないと分かんないしねもちろん

Of course, if you don't divide it, you won't understand.

そうそう

That's right.

そういうのもあれだろうとかですね

I suppose that's one way to look at it.

で

And

ずーっと

Forever

今にしかいないしここにしかいないのに

Even though I’m here only now and nowhere else.

悩みがあるのは今に心がないからだっていう

It's said that having worries is because the heart is absent in the present.

うーん

Hmm.

そういうイメージ

That's the kind of image.

そういう感じというか

It's more like that kind of feeling.

念仏今に心仏その漢字の理解とか今どうでしょう

How is your understanding of the kanji for "nenbutsu" and "shinbutsu" now?

漢字の理解ですか

Is it an understanding of kanji?

今に心

"Heart of the present."

Kyle

Kyle

あの言葉が残っていて

That word remains.

カンムル事業の言葉だと思いますけど

I think it's a term related to the Kanmuru project.

アミダブツここを去ること遠からず

Amitabha, it will not be long before I leave here.

遠くないんだなっていう気づきというか

It's a realization that it's not that far away.

ここのところで

"At this point"

不思議な出会いという言葉で表現しているのかわからないですけれども

I'm not sure if it's expressed with the phrase "mysterious encounter."

今おっしゃられた通り不思議と思議の違いですよね

It's the difference between "wonder" and "mystery," as you just mentioned.

できる時点で自分ですからねやっぱり

After all, it's still me since I can do it.

でも不思議がわかるのも面白いしとか

But it's also interesting to understand the mysteries.

なんか言葉遊びかもしれないですけど

It might be some kind of wordplay, but...

うん

Yeah.

まあでも全部は後付けかな

Well, I guess it's all just an afterthought.

うん

Yeah.

でもこの不思議としか呼べない体感というか感覚っていうのはすごく

But this experience, or rather this sensation that can only be described as mysterious, is quite amazing.

大事なもんな

It's an important thing.

うん

Yeah.

うんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうんうん

Hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm.

白分別を超えたところに何か

Something beyond white distinction.

そのままそこに

Right there as it is.

入ってきてしまうというか

It's like it can't help but come in.

そこと

there and

受け入れるって言ったら変な言い方

Saying "to accept" sounds like a strange way of putting it.

どういうことか分かるんですけどね

I understand what you mean.

不思議な感じがしますね

It feels very strange, doesn't it?

不思議な感じがするっていう

It feels mysterious.

ですよね

That's right.

卵が先かには

Which came first, the egg or the chicken?

かじゃないけど

It's not like that, but...

その矛盾する中で

In that contradiction.

いろいろ

Various

ありますよね

It exists, doesn't it?

今このラジオでも

"Now, on this radio as well"

浄土三部教

Three Pure Land Sutras

読んでる

I'm reading.

んですけども

Well, you see...

改めて

Once again

書いてあることをそのまま

As it is written.

耳を傾けてみると

If you listen carefully,

むちゃくちゃ

Nonsensical or ridiculous.

でかいことが書いてあるというか

It can be said that something big is written.

スケールがすごく

The scale is amazing.

大きいんですね

It's big, isn't it?

そうかもしれない

That might be true.

そうだね

That's right.

時間軸にしても場所というか

Even in terms of the timeline, it's about the location.

距離にしても

Even in terms of distance.

しかもこの

Moreover, this...

例えば僕好きな言葉で

For example, with words I like.

自由制下の

Under the system of freedom

自由制下

Under free control

大破では三制下って言うんですかね

Is it referred to as "largely broken" under the three systems?

三制下です

It is under the three systems.

ガコン朝鮮なんですね

It's a rough Korea, isn't it?

そうです

That's right.

あれの最後大仙王感動って

The ending of that really moved me, Great Sage King.

三仙大仙世界まさに感動すべし

The world of the three immortal sages is truly inspiring.

なんかすごいですよ

It’s pretty amazing.

天も地も差してこう

The heavens and the earth also shine this way.

私のこの願いに応えろっていう風に

"Respond to my wish like this."

なんていう自信だそれかね

What kind of confidence is that?

しかもそれが教の中で答えるんですよね

Moreover, that answers within the teaching, doesn't it?

なんかね

Well, you know...

大地をグワーンと揺れて

The earth shakes with a roar.

神々が天の花を

The gods flower in the heavens.

雨降らしたという

It is said that it rained.

なんかむちゃめちゃすごいスケールというか

It's like an incredibly enormous scale or something.

なんかね

Somehow, you know...

スケール感

Sense of scale

なんかもうんとこう

Well, I guess...

それこそ

That’s exactly it.

菩薩だけじゃなくて

Not just a bodhisattva.

その大地も神々を全部こうして

The earth also treats all the gods like this.

書かれてある感じというか

It's more of a feeling that it's written.

なんかこう

Like, well...

震えるというか

It's more like trembling.

まあ改めてやるよ

Well, I'll do it again.

すごいの聞いてんだなって思う

I think it's amazing to hear that.

あれだからね

It's because of that, you know.

なんか思ったりするし

I sometimes think about things.

浄土真宗やば

Jodo Shinshu is amazing.

神来主にはこれが真実やとしか言わんのです

I can only say that this is the truth to the deity.

やっぱり

As I thought.

それだけなんですよね

That's all there is to it.

真実のだいぶん状況これなりっていう

This is quite a significant situation of truth.

でもそれをこう

But in that way...

今ね聞いてるとね

I'm listening right now.

そう聞いてる毛利さんがいるもんね

I hear that Mr. Mouri is listening to that.

それがすごくない

Isn't that amazing?

なんかねそんなこと思いますね

I feel like that sometimes.

本当に我一人ですよ

It's really just me.

本当に世尊が一心じゃないけど

"Really, the venerable one is not single-minded."

ちょっとそれは違うか

Well, that's a bit different.

でもね

But you know,

あの気持ちはそんな感じなんで

That feeling is kind of like that.

世尊が一心って

The Buddha is single-minded.

あれはお釈迦様のやつで

That's from the Buddha's teachings.

自分のお療養を聞いてくださいって言うと

When I say to listen to my treatment,

本当は時代も超えた言葉だと思うんですよね

I really think it's a phrase that transcends time.

天神ポタスがおられた時に

When the heavenly deity Potasu was present

お釈迦様が亡くなっておられるわけだけれども

Although the Buddha has passed away,

でもお釈迦様に対して世尊は我一心に

"However, regarding the Buddha, I earnestly..."

奇妙人事法無下行におられてこう

Strange personnel affairs are being left unattended like this.

なんていうかなこう

How should I put this...

叫ばれるって言ったら

If you say "it’s being called out"

言葉が強いかもしれないけど

The words may be strong, but...

自分のことで殺していかれるというか

It's like being killed by my own issues.

語られてたりいう感じって

It feels like it's being talked about.

なんかねこんな感じします

It feels like something like this, you know.

そうだよねスケール感だよね

That's right, it's about the sense of scale.

後行し優位だしね本当に

It's really advantageous to follow behind, isn't it?

どんだけ考えたんだって

How much have you thought about it?

なんかねでもそういうものにこう

Well, you know, it's like those kinds of things...

もうね今はだからもう

Well, you see, right now...

これやってるともう

When I'm doing this, it's already...

直接触れていきたいなって思いがあるんですよね

I have the desire to directly connect with you.

こう

Like this

ん?何?直接?

Huh? What? Directly?

うん触れていきたいというかこう

Yeah, I want to touch it, or rather...

おぉ

Oh!

ここはどういった意味があって

What does this place mean?

こういった意味があってとかじゃなくって

It's not that there is a meaning like this or that.

もうこの直接でそのでかいものに

Now, directly with that big thing.

もう生でこう触れていく

I will touch you like this alive.

当たっていけたらいいなと思って

I hope I can hit it.

まあそれができたら

Well, if that can be done.

浄土史上すごいことだと思うんですよね

I think it's an amazing thing in the history of Pure Land Buddhism.

いや毛利さんすごいと思う

I think Mouri-san is amazing.

多分頭に走ってないもんね

Maybe it’s not running in your head, huh?

言葉とか哲学とかじゃなくて

It's not about words or philosophy.

そっちに行く浄土真宗のお坊さんって

Are the Jodo Shinshu Buddhist priests going over there?

珍しいと思うよ多分

I think it's probably rare.

僕が言うのもなんだけど

I hate to say this, but...

やっぱさ哲学とか言葉にすがっちゃわない?

Aren't we just clinging to philosophy and words after all?

っていうかまあまあまあ決めとけちゃダメだけど

Well, I mean, you shouldn't make it too definite, but...

うん

Yeah.

言葉大事にするって言い方もできるんだけど

You could also say that it's important to cherish words.

言葉ばっかになっちゃって

It has become just words.

その直接触れるとかそういうところに

"To those places where you touch directly or things like that."

アプローチできてないから念仏を勧められずに説明をしちゃうみたいなふうな

It seems like I'm explaining things because I can't approach it, so I can't recommend chanting sutras.

なってるんじゃないかな

I think it's become that way.

ナマンダブって言ってはいいんだもん

It's okay to say "Namu Amida Butsu."

それじゃダメだって言い出した時点でもう

Once you said that it wouldn't do, it was already too late.

お前何様だって話し合う

"Who do you think you are to talk about this?"

計らいを超えたもの念仏ね

It is a chant of the nembutsu that surpasses all planning.

そうやって計らってるんですけどね

I'm doing it that way, you know.

まだ結果

Not yet results.

でもねこの頃今思ってみると思い返してみると

But you know, when I think back on it now…

僕が最初浄土真宗に興味が持ったのもこのお念仏だったんですよね

The reason I first became interested in Jodo Shinshu was because of this nembutsu.

そうなのねすご

I see, that's amazing!

もともと関心がなかったんだけど

I wasn't originally interested in it, but...

やっぱりほんと腹から念仏してる人の姿というか

It's really like seeing a person who is truly chanting from their core.

なんかねほんとにこう

Well, you know, really like this...

お念仏に涙を流される

Tears are shed in prayer.

ことを見てドキッとしてる

I'm startled by what I see.

何これってことでなんか

What is this about?

お念仏に触れたというか

It's like having come into contact with the teachings of the Buddha.

もちろんどう言ったらいい念仏がそういったのがないんですよ何も

Of course, there’s no way to say it. There’s nothing at all.

だけど何かそこに起こってるのを感じたらを得なかったというか

But I couldn't help but feel that something was happening there.

不思議としか言えなかったですよ

I can only say it was mysterious.

僕の理解の範疇が実証があったというか

It's like I had evidence within the scope of my understanding.

そこに触れたのが大きなこれなんだこれっていう

What I touched there was something big, what is this?

思わざるを得ない

I can't help but think.

念仏が大事とは聞いていたけれども

I had heard that reciting the Nembutsu was important, but...

なんかそこに生々しさを初めて感じたというか

It's like I felt a rawness there for the first time.

ぬくもりを感じたというか

It's more like I felt warmth.

そんなことを

Such a thing.

思い

Thoughts

起こしましたね

You woke me up, didn’t you?