「ABC ラジオ・タビラジ × ひすとりぃわん！ ミニツアー」🚍

みなさんおはようございます

Good morning, everyone.

よろしくお願いいたします

Thank you in advance.

小樽町発

From Otaru Town

広瀬麻生の旅ラジ

Aso Hirose's Travel Radio

ヒストリーワンバスツアーということで

It's called the History One Bus Tour.

今日ようこそお越しくださいました

Thank you for coming today.

ありがとうございます

Thank you.

私が

I am

柴田広瀬でございます

I am Hirose Shibata.

びっくりするほどオーラがありませんね

You have surprisingly little aura.

ありがとうございます

Thank you.

そして私が

And then I

高野麻生と申しますのでよろしくお願いします

My name is Asou Takano, nice to meet you.

びっくりするほど迫力あるでしょ

It's surprisingly powerful, isn't it?

失礼いたしました

I apologize for the inconvenience.

そして今日

And today.

ご案内していただける天野先生です

This is Professor Amano, who will guide you.

どうもよろしくお願いします

Thank you for your kindness.

はい

Yes

今日は多門と四季ということで

Today, it's Tamon and Shiki.

多門は歩いて楽ですけど

Tamon is easy to walk around.

四季さんはちょっと足元気をつけておいてください

Please be careful with your footing, Shiki-san.

優しそうな顔してますでしょ

You have a gentle-looking face, don't you?

本当に歴史好きでね

I really love history.

大好きなんですよ

I really love you.

さあということで

Well then, here we go.

3月17日日曜日

Sunday, March 17th

お越しください

Please come.

旅ラジ初めてのバスツアーへ

"To the first bus tour of Travel Radio"

行ってまいりました

I have returned.

今はバスの中の

Now I'm on the bus.

出発前の様子なんですけど

It's what things were like before departure.

出発したすぐ直後か

Right after we departed.

そうですね皆さんニコニコっとしながらね

That's right, everyone should smile happily.

見てくださってましたよね

You were watching, weren't you?

関西ゆかりの

With ties to Kansai.

松永久秀が築いた

Built by Matsunaga Hisahide.

奈良の城跡をめぐる

Exploring the ruins of Nara Castle.

バスツアーということで

Since it's a bus tour,

奈良を中心に

Centered around Nara.

近畿一帯ぐらいまで勢力があった

It had power up to the Kinki region.

戦国武将の松永久秀さんの

The Sengoku warlord Matsunaga Hisahide.

作った

I made it.

城のもう今は跡地しかないんですけども

The castle now only has ruins left.

そのあたりをめぐるツアーということだったんですけども

It was supposed to be a tour around that area.

このツアーでは

On this tour,

歴史学者の天野忠之先生

Professor Tadayuki Amano, a historian.

先ほどね

Just a moment ago.

お声もちょっと聞きいただきましたけども

I also heard a bit of your voice.

天野忠之先生にお話を

I would like to talk to Mr. Tadashi Amano.

伺いながら奈良市にある

I will visit Nara City while listening.

多門城席

Tamonsu Castle Seat

多門城の跡

The ruins of Tamon Castle.

今実はこちらは若草中学校という

Right now, this is Wakakusa Junior High School.

中学校に変わっている

It's changed to a junior high school.

そして東大寺

And Todai-ji.

四義山城の

Yagiyama Castle's

跡地をめぐってまいりました

I have visited the site.

まずは松永久秀が建てた

First, it was built by Matsunaga Hisahide.

多門城に行ってきました

I went to Tamon Castle.

ここ今はもう若草中学校ということで

This is now Wakakusa Junior High School.

戦後中学校にやってたんですけども

I was attending middle school after the war.

このお城がですね

This castle, you see,

多門山城

Tamon Mountain Castle

多門城と言われている

It is said to be Tamon Castle.

松永久秀のお城になります

It will be Matsunaga Hisahide's castle.

彼がですね

It's him.

ここを作った

I created this place.

多分最大の理由が

Maybe the biggest reason is...

奈良の象徴ですね

It is a symbol of Nara.

興福寺の五十の塔が見えます

You can see the five-story pagoda of Kōfuku-ji.

本当だ五十の塔見えますね

It's true, I can see the Tower of Fifty.

この辺側から見てもらった方が

It would be better to have it looked at from this side.

ちょっと丘になってるから

It's a bit hilly.

ここから五十の塔が見える

You can see the Tower of Fifty from here.

この場所を選んだわけですか

Is this the reason you chose this place?

松永久秀はですね

Matsunaga Hisahide is...

あの三好永之という人の家臣で

He is a vassal of that person named Eiyuki Miyoshi.

この大和の国をもらいます

I will take this land of Yamato.

当時はですね

At that time, you see.

奈良っていうのは日本の副首都ですので

Nara is Japan's secondary capital.

ここはしっかり支配せえよと

"Make sure to take control here."

でも奈良県大和の国の

But in the country of Yamato in Nara Prefecture.

支配者と言いますか

Do we call it a ruler?

事実上奈良県起義をやっておられるのが

In fact, what is being done is a rebellion in Nara Prefecture.

あの興福寺さんなんですね

That’s Kofuku-ji, isn’t it?

さあ興福寺さんと松永久秀

Let's go with Kofuku-ji Temple and Matsunaga Hisahide.

どっちが上なのかというところ

Which one is superior?

はっきりさせんといかんよねということで

We need to make it clear, right?

興福寺さんを見下ろせるこの場所に

At this place where you can overlook Kofuku-ji.

もともとお寺があるんですけども

There is originally a temple.

お寺があったんですが

There used to be a temple.

あんたどいてと言うて

"You said to move aside."

ここにお城を作って

Build a castle here.

四階建ての

Four-story building

当時はまだ天守という言い方はないんですけども

At that time, the term "tenshu" (castle keep) did not yet exist.

やぐらを作ってどうだと

What about making a yagura (tower)?

あの興福寺さんよりも立派な建物がここにあるぞ

There is a more magnificent building here than at Kōfuku-ji.

大和の本当の支配者は俺なんだぞということで

The true ruler of Yamato is me.

ここにお城を作り始めたということになります

This means that they have started to build a castle here.

でも権力者ってやっぱ考えることがあるんですかね

But I wonder if those in power really think about things.

権力者ってやっぱ考えることがあるんですかね

Do those in power really have things to think about, I wonder?

考えることがあるんですかね

I wonder if there are things to think about.

この場所に来たら初めてわかりますね

You'll understand for the first time once you come to this place.

ここに建てたかった理由が

The reason I wanted to build here is...

西側がどこまで広がっているかなんですね

It's about how far the West has expanded.

当時の古文書では

In the ancient documents of that time

爪の丸

Round nail

爪の丸っていうのは本丸のことなんですが

"The roundness of the nail refers to the main citadel."

西の丸っていうのが広がっていました

There was an expansion called Nishinomaru.

江戸時代風に言うと二の丸なんですけども

In the Edo period style, it's referred to as the Ninomaru.

それがどこまで広がっていたのかは

I wonder how far it had spread.

なかなか微妙なんですが

It's quite delicate, isn't it?

はい

Yes

えー

Ehh.

このお城の西側にあるものは何でしょうか

What is located on the west side of this castle?

西側にあるもの

Things in the west

ちょっと見にくいんですけども

It's a bit hard to see, but...

山

Mountain

実は

Actually

唐太子を作った聖武天皇のお墓があります

There is a tomb of Emperor Shomu, who created the Crown Prince.

えー

Uh...

もし西の丸がこの場所まで入っているとなると

If Nishinomaru has entered this place...

奈良の象徴幸福寺を見下ろす

Overlooking the symbol of Nara, Hōcchō-ji Temple.

もう一つはこの辺から見てもらいますと

The other one can be seen from around here.

唐太子の大仏殿まで見えてしまうわけですよ

You can see the Great Buddha Hall of the Crown Prince.

めちゃくちゃ見えますね大仏殿

The Great Buddha Hall looks really impressive.

はいあれが大仏殿なんですけども

Yes, that is the Great Buddha Hall.

そうすると

In that case

えー

Ehh?

正しく奈良の象徴を両方とも抑えるという

It correctly encompasses both of Nara's symbols.

あの聖武天皇のお墓も我がお城の中だぞというね

That the grave of Emperor Shomu is also within our castle.

そういう意図ありやなしやということになってくるわけです

It comes down to whether there is such an intention or not.

ということでまずは天野先生のお話聞いていただいたんですけど

So, first of all, we listened to Dr. Amano's talk.

わかりやすいですね今聞いても

It's easy to understand, even when I hear it now.

そうですね

That's right.

行ってみて改めて

Go and see for yourself again.

はい

Yes

お城作った意味がよくわかりましたよね

I understood the meaning of building the castle quite well, didn't I?

えーちょうど中学校の正門の前ぐらいに立たせてもらったんですけど

I was allowed to stand right in front of the main gate of the middle school.

丘になってるから五重の塔ちょっと見下ろして見てる感じになるんですよね

Since it's on a hill, it feels like you can look down a bit at the five-story pagoda.

そうです

That's right.

振り返ると

When I look back

右見たら五重の塔左の見たら幸福寺っていうロケーションでしたよね

When I looked to the right, there was a five-story pagoda, and when I looked to the left, there was a temple called Kōfuku-ji, right?

でさらにもうちょっと左側というか東の方には道が街道があって

And a little more to the left, or rather to the east, there is a road, a highway.

これが奈良と京都を結ぶ道で

This is the road that connects Nara and Kyoto.

そこも見下ろしてるぞと

"I'm looking down at that too."

そうそうそう

That's right, that's right, that's right.

全部押さえてるぞっていう話もしてくださいまして

Please also talk about how you're keeping everything in check.

南を聞かせたわけですよね

You were telling me about the south, right?

でこの多門城っていう多い少ないの多いに

So this Tamon Castle is referred to as "many" in terms of abundance.

新聞の文聞くっていう字で門多門城というんですけども

It's called Mondo Monjou, which is written as "the gate of many doors" in the characters used for the newspaper article.

この多門っていうのが仏教でいうところの四天王っていうのがいまして

This Tamon is what is referred to in Buddhism as the Four Heavenly Kings.

それの北側を守る神様仏様がこれが多門天と

The deity protecting the northern side is called Tamonten.

でちょうど北側に位置するんですよねその幸福寺から見ると

It is situated exactly to the north when viewed from the Kōfuku-ji Temple.

はい

Yes

北側の王冠に立てたから多門城という風な名前になってるそうなんですけども

It is said that it is called Tamon Castle because it stands on the northern crown.

この後はですね実はこの中学校に行きましたから

After this, I actually went to this middle school.

その元若草中学校の社会の先生をされてた

He was a social studies teacher at the former Wakakusa Junior High School.

北村正明さんにもご登場いただきましていろいろお話聞きました

We had Mr. Masaaki Kitamura join us and heard various stories from him.

この北村さんは今はこの大和多門城の研究会をされているということで

Mr. Kitamura is currently conducting research on the Great Yamato Takamon Castle.

はい

Yes

こちらのお話も面白かったですお聞きください

This story was also interesting, please listen to it.

あの北村さんあのあちらに

That Kitamura-san is over there.

はいはいはいはい

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

ちょっと石が積んだ

I piled up some stones.

ああそうですね

Ah, I see.

こちらのもしご説明をしていただけると

I would appreciate it if you could provide an explanation for this.

はいはい実は多門城跡にあたるこの若草中学校の敷地の土の中から

Yes, yes, actually from the soil in the grounds of Wakakusa Junior High School, which corresponds to the ruins of Tamon Castle,

ボロボロと出てきた石で作られたもの

Made from stones that came out in fragments.

えー破壊石とか

Uh, destruction stones or something.

はい

Yes

木曜灯とかいう風なねはい

It's something like "Thursday light."

えーそういうの石灯って言うんです

Well, that's called a stone lantern.

石灯類って言うんですけどね

It's called a stone lantern.

一番多かったのはやっぱり五輪灯って呼ばれるものです

The most common one is definitely what is called the Olympic light.

えーそんなのがこの出てきたんです

Um, something like that has come out.

でそれをここへ集めて

So gather that here.

まあ大事に守っていこうとしたんですよね

Well, I was trying to protect it carefully.

実はお城作るにはね石がいるんですよ

Actually, you need stones to build a castle.

石材石がね

Stone masonry

はいもう石垣築こうと思ったらいいし柱の下にもいいしあるいは地盤固めをまずしないとあかんからいいし

Yes, it's fine to think about building stone walls, and it's also good to have them under the pillars, or we first need to solidify the groundwork, so that's fine too.

もう石がたくさんいるんで

I already have a lot of stones.

でもちょっとこのあたりで石切り場にあたる場所がほとんどないんですよ

But there aren't many places around here that are stone quarries.

そうすると石材が不足

Then there will be a shortage of stone materials.

これを松永久秀は何とかって言うんで近隣のお寺あるいは墓地

Matsunaga Hisahide referred to this as something, and so nearby temples or cemeteries...

そういうところからこういうものを

From places like that, things like this come.

挑発って言うんですか強制的にも持ってくるということを家来に命じて集めたわけですね

Are you saying that it's provocation? You ordered your subordinates to forcibly gather them, right?

そして利用したんです

And then I used it.

で利用するときに五輪灯そのまま利用するというわけではなくって

It doesn't mean that we will use the Olympic light as it is.

部分部分を使える場所に利用したわけです

I utilized the parts in places where they could be used.

地輪って呼ばれるのは四角くてこれ使いやすそうですね

The one called "jirin" is square and looks easy to use.

積み上げたら石垣にもなりそう

"It seems like it could become a stone wall if stacked up."

まるっこいようなやつは地盤固めでも地面の中に掘り込む

The round ones are dug into the ground even in groundwork.

そういう使い方をしてたんで後々バラバラ出てくるわけです

That's how it was used, so later on, it comes out in bits and pieces.

なんかちょっとだけ罰当たりな感じもしますね

It feels a bit like bad karma, doesn't it?

ただね罰当たりなんですけど当時の考え方ではねそうでもないんですよ

Well, it's a bit blasphemous, but at that time, it wasn't really seen that way.

私たちはこういうものは先祖代々から受け継いで守らなあかんというね

We must inherit and protect things like this from our ancestors.

そういう信仰としての対象のように思いますけどね

I think it seems like an object of faith like that.

当時はもうその人を供養したらもうそんでええねということで

At that time, it was enough to have that person memorialized and that was it.

ものみたいなね

It's like something.

そうなんでね織田信長だって明智光秀だって

That's right, both Oda Nobunaga and Akechi Mitsuhide.

お城作る時にはこんなのを使ってます

I use something like this when building a castle.

というわけでねどこのお城でもよくそういうのは使われてるんでね

So, that's why such things are often used in castles everywhere.

松永久秀だけが罰当たりなことをしたわけではないです

Matsunaga Hisahide was not the only one who committed blasphemous acts.

失礼しました

I apologize for the inconvenience.

当時としてはこのリタイクルみたいな感じですかね

I guess it's kind of like this recycle at that time.

SDGsだったり

Such as the SDGs.

もうどうしても石材の不足をね補うには適当だとね

It is appropriate to compensate for the shortage of stone materials no matter what.

まあ普段はなかなか中学校なんで入れないんですけど

Well, normally you can't really get into a middle school.

特別にいらさせていただきましてね

I'm specially allowed to be here.

あの掘り切りっていうかちょっと何ですか深く削るところがあって

That cut, or rather, there's a place that's carved quite deeply.

それも我々見ることができたんですけど

We were able to see that too.

そこまで下ったじゃないですか

You've come down all the way to that point, haven't you?

そしたらやっぱむっちゃ角度もう90度ぐらいありました

Then, as I thought, there was definitely an angle of about 90 degrees.

急勾配の上

On a steep slope.

あの上に上から石を投げられたり矢を放たれたりされてたって聞くと

I heard that stones were thrown and arrows were shot from above.

ちょっとゾッとしましたね

That was a bit creepy, wasn't it?

さあそして続いてはですね

Now, next up is...

東大寺に行きました

I went to Todai-ji.

こちらは多門城の後から歩いて15分ほどなんですけれども

This is about a 15-minute walk from Tamon Castle.

東大寺に行ったのはなぜかというと

The reason I went to Todai-ji is because of...

この松永久秀と三好長吉の家来だったっていう話をしましたけど

I mentioned that this was the story of being a retainer of Matsunaga Hisahide and Miyoshi Nagayoshi.

三好長吉さんが亡くなってその後勢いを取り戻してきた

After the passing of Nagayoshi Miyao, we have regained our momentum.

三好一派と松永久秀が戦うという東大寺なんですけども

It's about the battle between the Miyoshi faction and Matsunaga Hisahide at Todai-ji.

で奇跡的に実は焼け残ったというちょっと火事になったりしちゃったんですけども

It miraculously survived the fire, even though there was a bit of a fire incident.

東大寺の裏手にある手買い門というところを通って入ってきました

I entered through a place called Tegai Gate located behind Todai-ji Temple.

これも初めて通りました東大寺の門

This is also the first time I've passed through the gate of Todai-ji.

私もです

Me too.

あそこまで行ったことなかったですね

I had never been that far before.

かなり歴史を感じるね

It feels quite historical, doesn't it?

立派なものでしたよ

It was splendid.

立派なもんですけども

It's quite impressive, but...

その後東大寺の大仏殿も行きましたんでちょっとお聞きください

After that, I went to the Great Buddha Hall of Todai-ji, so please let me know a bit about it.

うーわ久しぶりに来たけど

Wow, it's been a while since I came here.

大きいし

It's big.

やっぱりすごい重厚な感じがする

It really does have an impressive and heavy feel to it.

なんかこうね

It's like, you know...

ドッて収まってるっていうイメージ

It's the image of being neatly contained.

いやー

Wow!

ちょっとやっぱ圧巻

It's just really impressive after all.

やっぱりこれだけの大きさこれだけの高さ

After all, such a large size and such a height.

そしてあの屋根の上についている木がものすごくキラキラ光ってます

And the tree on that roof is shining incredibly brightly.

あっぱれです

It's admirable.

大きいね

It's big, isn't it?

ということで高野麻生さんの感想がずっと入ってましたけど

So, I’ve been receiving Takano Mao's impressions all along, but...

恥ずかしいくらい小学生のような感想だったんですけども

It was an embarrassing reaction, almost like that of an elementary school student.

でも久しぶりに行ってこんな大きかったっけってちょっとびっくりしました

But I was a bit surprised to find it so big when I went back after a long time.

なかなかね高野麻生さんが集合時間になっても帰ってこなくて

It seems that Asou Takano hasn't returned even by the meeting time.

みんなリスナーの皆さんをお待たせするというちょっと失態がありましたけど

Everyone, there was a slight mistake in keeping the listeners waiting.

ごめんなさいごめんなさい

I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

なんかあまりの圧倒感にちょっとその場をねさりがたくなってしまうぐらいに

Somehow, the overwhelming feeling makes it difficult for me to leave that place.

なんかものすごくオーラを感じました

I felt an incredible aura.

なんかまたもっともっとおいでもっとおいでって言われてるような気分で

I feel like I'm being told to come closer and closer, even more deliciously.

だから包み込まれるような感じだったんですけどね

So it felt like I was being enveloped.

僕らも知らなかったんですけどあの大仏さんは実はね3代目だったんですよ

We didn't know either, but that Great Buddha is actually the third generation.

そうなんですってね

I see, is that so?

私今しましたように松永久秀と三好一派との戦いで焼けてしまった

I was burned in the battle between Matsunaga Hisahide and the Miyoshi faction as I just mentioned.

そうなんです

That's right.

ねえ

Hey.

だからちょっと悪者って言われてしまったんだけどね

So I ended up being called a bit of a villain.

そうなんですよねでも3代目で今台座だけは当時のままのものが残っているということなんですけれども

That's right, but the pedestal from the original is the only thing that has remained unchanged through the three generations.

でなんか高野さんがなぜ遅刻したのか遠くから見てましたけど

I was watching from afar to see why Takano-san was late.

なんか撫でてませんでした何か

Did you not pet something?

あのね身代わり地蔵がありましたよね

You know there was a substitute Jizo, right?

はい

Yes

で私ちょっと膝悪くしてたので膝をなでなでしてたもんですから

Well, I had a bit of a knee problem, so I was gently stroking my knee.

なるほど

I see.

でついでにもう悪いとこ直してくれるって言うから頭触りたかったんですけど

Since you said you would fix the bad things while you were at it, I wanted to touch your head.

頭までは手が届かずどうしたもんやろうなって思ってる間に時間が過ぎておりました

I couldn't reach my head, and while I was wondering what to do, time passed by.

いや楽しかったです

No, it was fun.

大変失礼いたしました

I sincerely apologize.

ちなみに私はそこでお守りを一つ買ったんですけど

By the way, I bought a talisman there.

はい

Yes

花守りっていうね

It's called flower protection.

花がないから花守りだったの

It was a flower guardian because there were no flowers.

私あの挨拶の時にオーラがないって言ってちょっとオーラ作るために

I said I don't have any aura during that greeting, so I tried to create a bit of aura.

この花守りを私は肌見肌させるんですよ

I will keep this flower charm close to me.

肌を持ってますんでこれでオーラ出まくりですこの後は

I have skin, so I'll be radiating aura with this from now on.

ちょっとご覧ください私御朱印を書いていただいたんですけど

Please take a look; I received a goshuin.

すごくかっこいい

Very cool.

ケゴンって書いてあるんですけどね

It says "Kegon."

ケゴン

Kegon

すっごい勢いのある字でしょう

It's a really powerful-looking character, isn't it?

立派な御朱印書いていただきました

I received a wonderful goshuin.

ありがたや

Thank you very much.

ありがたやということで東大寺から続いての場所に移動するんですけども

We will be moving to the next location after Todai-ji, thanking you for this opportunity.

四季山城に行くんですがバスに乗りながら移動しました

I went to Shikiyama Castle, but I traveled by bus.

でバスの中ではお待ちかねのお昼ご飯ということで

So, on the bus, it was the much-awaited lunchtime.

はい

Yes

奈良といえばそうです

Speaking of Nara, that's right.

柿の葉寿司本舗田中の柿の葉寿司をいただきました

I received the persimmon leaf sushi from Tanaka, the persimmon leaf sushi shop.

美味しかったですね

It was delicious, wasn't it?

なんかむっちゃうまくもう本当に美味しい美味しいもうバクバクバクってうますぎて

It's just so incredibly delicious, really tasty, I'm devouring it so much because it's too good!

柿松さんあっという間に召し上がってましたもんね

Mr. Kakimatsu finished eating in no time at all, didn't he?

美味しいサバも美味しい鮭も美味しいタイも美味しかった

The delicious mackerel, the delicious salmon, and the delicious sea bream were all tasty.

ねえ

Hey.

あれの時一番いいですね手軽で手も汚れず

That's the best time; it's convenient and keeps your hands clean.

おっしゃる通り

As you say.

ねえ

Hey.

はい

Yes

さっといただきましたありがとうございました

I quickly received it, thank you very much.

さあお腹いっぱいになったところです

Now that I've had my fill, let's go.

はい

Yes.

次は

Next is

うん

Yeah.

三条に向かいますあの奈良と大阪の境目ですからね

I'm heading to Sanjo, as that's the border between Nara and Osaka.

はいはい

Yes, yes.

バスで移動したわけなんですけども

I moved by bus, you see.

ここは松永久秀が織田信長と戦ったと言われている場所なんですね

This is said to be the place where Matsunaga Hisahide fought against Oda Nobunaga.

松永久秀がここで最後を迎えたと言われてるんですけれども

It is said that Matsunaga Hisahide met his end here.

実はその由来は聖徳太子に由来するということで

In fact, its origin is said to come from Prince Shotoku.

聖徳太子ですから松永久秀の時代よりももう1000年ぐらい前の話なんですけど

It's a story from about 1000 years before the time of Matsunaga Hisahide, as it's from the era of Prince Shotoku.

その聖徳太子がね

That Prince Shotoku, you know.

当時のモノノベモリアっていうライバルと戦った時に

When I fought against my rival, Mononobe Moria, at that time.

このビシャモンテンの御加護を受けて勝ったと言われてるんですね

It is said that we won thanks to the protection of Bishamonten.

でここにあります超御尊寺っていうのがそのビシャモンテンさんを祀ってるということで

So here we have the Chōgonsji temple, which is dedicated to Bishamonten.

ここに戦いに強い御利益があるあやかれるということで

Here, there are blessings that enhance one's strength in battles.

松永久秀がその超御尊寺というお寺の北側に四義三条を建てたんです

Matsunaga Hisahide built the Yogi Sanjo on the north side of the highly esteemed temple.

戦いに強いお城だ

It is a castle strong in battle.

うん

Yeah.

聖徳太子さんって平和なイメージだったんですけど

I always had the image that Prince Shotoku was peaceful.

本当ですよね

That's really true.

戦ってあったんですね

You were fighting, weren't you?

戦いのイメージだと戦いに強いというイメージでここに建てたということなんですが

The idea of building this here was based on the image of being strong in battle.

四義三条結構高いところにありますよ

The Yagisanjō structure is located in a high place.

はい

Yes

苦労しましたお聞きください

I had a hard time, please listen.

ええじゃ

"That's fine."

これだいぶしんどい

This is quite tough.

え

Huh?

ちょっとここで行くの

I'm just going to go here for a bit.

休憩する気ないです

I have no intention of taking a break.

ちょっと

Just a little.

これ

This

みんなついてきてこれてる

Everyone is able to keep up.

5分も歩いてないです

I haven't walked for even 5 minutes.

うそやん

You're lying.

後ろはまだ大丈夫です

The back is still okay.

大丈夫ですか

Are you okay?

ちょっとだいぶしんどないこれ

This is a bit exhausting, isn't it?

だいぶしんどいですよ

It's quite tough.

かなりこれ急な階段です

This is quite a steep staircase.

長いで

It's long.

え

Eh?

,

,

山の神じゃないと無理やなおかしい

It's impossible unless it's the mountain god; it's strange.

山の神

Mountain deity

すいません私の口しか入ってなかったですね

I'm sorry, it was only in my mouth, wasn't it?

山の神というのは箱根駅伝のことをちょっと思い出して

The mountain god reminds me a little of the Hakone Ekiden.

山の神が走るぐらいの急勾配に感じて

It feels like a steep slope that even the mountain god would run down.

そうなんですよあのね山道じゃなくて階段なんですよね

That's right, it's not a mountain path, it's a staircase.

階段なんですよ

It's a staircase.

そう

Yes.

で本当に急勾配だとまっすぐ登れないからこう

It's really steep, so you can't climb straight up like this.

らせん状になってくんじゃないですか

Isn't it going to become spiral-shaped?

右左に

To the right and left.

しかも雨が降り始めたんですよ

Moreover, it started to rain.

そうなの

Is that so?

道路直前にね

Right before the road.

雨が降り始めてそれがだんだんきつくなってきたんですよ

It started to rain, and it gradually became heavier.

で私のちょっと愚痴の数も増えてきまして

And my little complaints have been increasing.

申し訳ございません

I am sorry.

ちょっと修行っぽくなってきましたけどね

It's starting to feel a bit like training, isn't it?

そんな中でも天野先生は元気に

Even in such times, Teacher Amano is doing well.

そうなんです

That's right.

どんどん登っていってですね

Keep climbing up, you know?

そして説明もしっかりしてくださいました

And they also explained it thoroughly.

松永久秀さんのことを話してくれてます

You are talking about Matsunaga Hisahide.

織田信長に背いて死ぬということで

By betraying Nobunaga Oda and dying.

松永久秀ってなんかもう本当に将軍殺すは

Matsunaga Hisahide really is going to kill the shogun.

信長に背くわで

"Without going against Nobunaga"

めっちゃ悪いやつやんけということで

You're really a bad one, aren't you?

大抵信長の野望とかいう某ゲームでは

In most cases, in a certain game called Nobunaga's Ambition...

非常に忠誠心はゼロとかね

There is virtually zero loyalty, you know.

設定されます

It will be set.

ただ問題がありまして

However, there is a problem.

将軍を殺害したのは久秀の息子なんですね

The one who assassinated the general is Hisahide's son, isn't it?

麒麟が来るでも

Even in "Kirin ga Kuru"

吉田幸太郎さんなんて早まったことをしたんだって言ってましたよね

They said that Yoshida Koutarou did something hasty, didn't they?

ここにこもって

Hiding out here.

信長に背くって言ったのは誰なのかなんですね

Who was it that said to betray Nobunaga?

でよくNHKの時代劇なんかに使われる

It is often used in NHK period dramas.

新潮口記という

It's called "Shinchō Kōki."

そこでは親子が背いた

There, a parent and child turned away from each other.

で織田信長

Oda Nobunaga

彦之さん攻めてくるときに

When Hikoni-san comes at you aggressively.

木から攻めしたらいっぱい損害が出るわけですね

Attacking from the tree would cause a lot of damage, wouldn't it?

もう我々がハァハァ言うてるように

Just like we're panting now.

織田軍団の声に上ってくるときは

When the voices of the Oda army rise up.

言ってると思います

I think they're saying that.

我々がハァハァ言うときは言ってると思います

I think when we are panting, we are saying something.

これ今これほぼ素手で登ってますけども

I'm climbing this almost barehanded right now.

皆さん20キロから30キロの鎧つけてください

Everyone, please wear armor weighing between 20 to 30 kilograms.

しんどっ

I'm tired.

ですよね

That's right.

で上から息が落ちてくるわけですね

So the breath comes down from above, right?

ひょいってかわせないですよね

You can't just dodge it, can you?

でそういう織田軍団が攻めてくるときも

So, even when the Oda army comes to attack,

できるだけ松永に味方しないよう

Try not to side with Matsunaga as much as possible.

大和部品お手紙書きます

I will write a letter to Yamato Parts.

あいつらに味方すんなと

Don't side with those guys.

そこで何て書いてあるか

What does it say there?

松永植物助

Matsunaga Shokubutsu (Matsunaga Plant Assistant)

で増設と合併

Expansion and merger.

松永久秀じゃなくて

Not Matsunaga Hisahide.

松永悲惨鬼

Matsunaga the Tragic Demon

息子がいろいろ横原の噂

My son has various rumors about Yokohara.

すなわち謀反の噂があるようだが

In other words, it seems there are rumors of a rebellion.

この悲惨方に味方して

Support this tragic side.

兵糧なんかを入れちゃ駄目だよ

You shouldn't put in supplies or anything like that.

信長はね

Nobunaga, you see...

息子がこのお城にこもって

My son is holed up in this castle.

背いたと思ってるんです

I think I've betrayed you.

久秀をやったと思ってないんですね

You don't think you defeated Yoshihide, do you?

そういう意味ではね

In that sense.

久秀の悪行の半分ぐらいは

About half of Kyuuhide's misdeeds are...

息子がやったことで

What my son did.

どうもその息子に結構引き継がれている

It seems that a lot has been passed down to that son.

天天お父さん

Every day, Dad.

そういうところも

In that regard too.

あの松永久秀あるんですね

That Matsunaga Hisahide exists, huh?

なるほどね

I see.

松永久秀さんが

Mr. Matsunaga Hisahide

いわゆる大役人と言われてたこともあったんですけど

There was also a time when I was called a so-called high-ranking official.

実はそうではないっていうことを

Actually, that's not the case.

天野先生の思いがここでね

Here are Dr. Amano's thoughts.

そう出てたんじゃないかな

I think it was coming out like that.

東大寺だって焼けてしまった久秀の

Even Todai-ji was burned down by Hisahide.

おかげでって言われてたけど

I was told it was thanks to you.

でも実は再建されてたんですよね

But actually, it was rebuilt.

クラウドファンディング

Crowdfunding

今で言うところをやろうとしてたけど

I was trying to do what we would call it now.

うまくいかなかった

It didn't go well.

火事になってしまったのもどうやらこう

It seems that a fire broke out for some reason.

風で他のところを焼こうと思ってたのに

I was planning to burn someplace else with the wind.

風でたまたま東大寺の方が焼けてしまった

By chance, it was the Todai-ji temple that caught fire due to the wind.

という風に言ってましたんでね

They said it like that.

そんな思いもありましたけど

I had those feelings too.

そして登っていって登っていって

And then climb up, and climb up.

雨の中

In the rain

頂上着きました

I have reached the summit.

やったと思ったんですけど

I thought I did it.

雨で煙る

It is hazy with rain.

雨に煙る景色でございましたけど

It was a scenery shrouded in rain.

きっと立派な景色が見えた

I'm sure a magnificent view could be seen.

ちょっとムーディーな感じ

A bit of a moody feeling.

でも山登ってくと気持ちいいんでしょうね

But climbing the mountain feels good, doesn't it?

晴れた日に上がるとね

On a sunny day, when you go up...

30分以上上がりましたからね

It's been over 30 minutes.

山道をね

On the mountain path.

そして帰り道や途中には

And on the way back or along the way,

松永久秀さんの住居跡っていうのがあって

There is the site of Matsunaga Hisahide's residence.

これも随分広い敷地に

This is also quite a spacious area.

あったんだなって

I realized it existed.

山城本当に山の中なんですけど

Yamashiro is really in the mountains, you know.

ちょっとだけ切り開いて

Just open it up a little bit.

大きなお城を作ったということなんです

It means that they built a large castle.

さて今回私たちが巡った場所

Now, the places we visited this time.

ですけれども

However,

スマホアプリの

Smartphone app of

聞くたびヒストリー1

Every time I listen, History 1

松永久秀スタンプラリー

Matsunaga Hisahide Stamp Rally

というものを使いますと

I will use such a thing.

実は楽しく学びながら

In fact, while learning enjoyably

巡ることができるんですね

You can go around, can't you?

そうなんですよね

That's right.

天野先生の話

Mr. Amano's story.

もうちょっときっと凝縮したようなものがね

I'm sure there will be something a bit more condensed.

わかるんです1分ぐらいで

I understand in about a minute.

多門城跡

Tamon Castle Ruins

赤草中学校の前ですよね

It's in front of Akakusa Junior High School, right?

それから四義山城跡にあります

It is located at the ruins of Yagiyama Castle.

QRコード

QR Code

はい

Yes

実はその看板の下にあるんですよ

Actually, it's under that sign.

QRコードが

QR code is

QRコードを読み取っていただくと

If you scan the QR code

あの可愛らしいワンコちゃんと

That cute little doggy.

アニメの女の子が出てきて

An anime girl appears.

1分の動画でその場所の説明をしてくれます

They will explain the place in a 1-minute video.

とってもわかりやすいので

It's very easy to understand.

ぜひ使ってみてください

Please give it a try.

聞くたびヒストリー1

Each time I listen, it's history 1.

松永久秀スタンプラリーです

This is a Matsunaga Hisahide stamp rally.

このアプリで

With this app

松永久秀ゆかりの地の

The land associated with Matsunaga Hisahide.

スタンプラリーをすることもできて

You can also participate in a stamp rally.

全部集めると

When you gather everything together

いいものももらえるそうですよ

I've heard you can get good things too.

我々もね2カ所行きましたよね

We went to two places as well, didn't we?

何カ所かあるようです

It seems there are several places.

さあということで

Well then, with that said,

いろんなことをやってきた

I have done various things.

盛りだくさんのバスツアーでしたけど

It was a packed bus tour, but...

本当にギュッて凝縮して

Really tightly compressed.

あちらこちら行って

Going here and there.

歴史をそんな詳しくなくても

Even if you don't know history in detail...

現場に行くと

When I go to the site...

ほーって感心することばかりで

I can only be impressed and amazed.

すごくちょっとお勉強した感じになりました

I feel like I studied just a little bit.

ねえちょっと

Hey, wait a minute.

この丘の上から見たらこういう景色を

From the top of this hill, I saw this kind of view.

当時は松永久秀さん見てたんだとか

At that time, I heard that they were watching Matsunaga Hisahide.

ここに石が積んであるけど

There are stones stacked here, but...

この石は昔こういう使われ方してたんだ

This stone was used this way in the past.

そして東大寺に行ったらね

And when I went to Todai-ji.

ここで膝を撫でるとよくなるから

If you stroke your knee here, it gets better.

花守りかもらおうかなとか

I wonder if I should protect the flowers.

思ったりとか

Thinking about it or something like that.

四義山城もねなかなか華やかでございましたし

The Yagiyama Castle was quite splendid as well.

いや本当にとってもいい旅

"Yeah, it was really a great trip."

そしてリスナーさんが

And then the listeners...

雨にも負けず風にも負けず

Unyielding to the rain, unyielding to the wind.

一生懸命歩いてくださって

Thank you for walking so earnestly.

話を聞いてくださって

Thank you for listening to me.

本当に素晴らしかったですね

It was truly amazing.

ありがたかったですね

It was appreciated.

また行きたいですね

I want to go again.

今日は旅ラジ初のバスツアーをご紹介しました

Today, we introduced the first bus tour of the travel radio.