39. Jak zaplanowa膰 do艣wiadczenia pacjenta? 馃搳 Rozmowa z Adrian膮 Przesz艂owsk膮
Zima, UX, UI, Design Strategy
Design i Biznes
39. Jak zaplanowa膰 do艣wiadczenia pacjenta? 馃搳 Rozmowa z Adrian膮 Przesz艂owsk膮
Cze艣膰. W dzisiejszym odcinku kontynuujemy temat Patient Experience, czyli do艣wiadczenie pacjenta.
Hello. In today's episode, we continue the topic of Patient Experience, which is the patient's experience.
Wi臋c je偶eli jest to co艣, co Ciebie interesuje, zapraszam do wys艂uchania tego odcinka.
So if this is something that interests you, I invite you to listen to this episode.
A nasz膮 go艣cini膮 b臋dzie Adriana Przesz艂owska, kt贸ra zajmuje si臋 od wielu lat projektowaniem PX, czyli Patient Experience.
Our guest will be Adriana Przesz艂owska, who has been involved in PX design, or Patient Experience, for many years.
Zapraszam.
Welcome.
Podcast Design & Business.
Podcast Design & Business.
Zapraszam Ilona Skarbowska.
I invite Ilona Skarbowska.
I Radek Rejsen.
I Radek Rejsen.
Cze艣膰.
Hello.
Cze艣膰 Ilona.
Hi Ilona.
Ju偶 jest weso艂o, co jak w pocz膮tku.
It's already cheerful, just like at the beginning.
To b臋dzie dobra rozmowa, dobra energia.
It will be a good conversation, good energy.
No wi臋c zaczynaj膮c, przygotowuj膮c si臋 do naszej rozmowy, powiedzia艂y艣my sobie o tym, 偶e projektowanie do艣wiadcze艅 pacjenta i w og贸le projektowanie dla pacjent贸w jest dosy膰 m艂od膮 dziedzin膮.
So, to start, while preparing for our conversation, we talked about how designing patient experiences and design for patients in general is a relatively young field.
I mam tutaj na my艣li nie tylko Polsk臋, ale w og贸le ca艂y 艣wiat.
And I mean not only Poland here, but the whole world in general.
Nie jest to co艣, co robimy jako projektanci UX, czy w og贸le projektacze.
It's not something we do as UX designers, or designers at all.
Nie jeste艣my projektanci od dawien dawna, tylko jest to m艂oda dziedzina i dlatego chcia艂abym nasz膮 rozmow臋 zacz膮膰 od definicji, 偶eby w og贸le naszych s艂uchaczy i widz贸w ustawi膰 w jakim艣 takim rozumieniu, czym w艂a艣ciwie jest to projektowanie CX, czy projektowanie UX dla pacjent贸w.
We are not designers for a long time; it's a young field, and that's why I would like to start our conversation with a definition, to set our listeners and viewers in some understanding of what exactly CX design or UX design for patients actually is.
No od strony organizacji to jest po prostu zaplanowanie wszystkich wydarze艅, kt贸re maj膮 si臋 wydarzy膰 i kt贸re maj膮 si臋 nie wydarzy膰 w poszczeg贸lnych punktach styku.
From the organizational side, it is simply the planning of all events that are to occur and those that are not to occur at various points of contact.
I one maj膮 by膰 powtarzalne.
And they are supposed to be repetitive.
Powtarzalne i mierzalne. I czy to jest PX, czy to jest CX, to za艂o偶enie jest podobne.
Repeatable and measurable. And whether it is PX or CX, the assumption is similar.
Z punktu widzenia pacjenta i z punktu widzenia klienta to jest troch臋 nie suma tych wszystkich do艣wiadcze艅, a r贸偶nica.
From the patient's perspective and from the client's perspective, it's not so much the sum of all those experiences, but the difference.
Czyli klient albo pacjent wchodzi z za艂o偶eniami, ma jakie艣 wyobra偶enie, ma jakie艣 oczekiwania, a zakup us艂ugi, zakup produktu jest po prostu weryfikacj膮.
So the client or patient comes in with assumptions, has some idea, has some expectations, and purchasing a service or a product is simply a verification.
No i wtedy jest pytanie, czy wynik jest pozytywny, czy jest negatywny.
And then the question is whether the result is positive or negative.
No pi臋kna wynika do艣wiadczenia, chodzi o emocje.
Well, beauty comes from experience, it's about emotions.
Chodzi, dok艂adnie.
It goes, exactly.
Chodzi o emocje i chodzi o t膮 indywidualn膮 perspektyw臋.
It's about emotions and it's about that individual perspective.
No i to jest oczywi艣cie z punktu widzenia biznesowego trudno, jak si臋 tego dobrze nie ustawi, dobrze nie wyja艣ni, no to trudno rozmawia膰, no to co my mamy, jak mamy te emocje dostarcza膰.
Well, of course from a business perspective it's difficult; if it's not set up well and explained properly, then it's hard to have a conversation. So what do we have, how do we deliver those emotions?
Buduje si臋 specjalne platformy, buduje si臋 ca艂e procesy i buduje si臋 wszystkie standardy, w艂a艣nie to o czym na pocz膮tku m贸wi艂am.
Special platforms are being built, entire processes are being built, and all standards are being built, just like I mentioned at the beginning.
Czyli co si臋 ma wydarzy膰 i co si臋 ma na pewno nie wydarzy膰.
So what is supposed to happen and what is definitely not supposed to happen.
I ka偶da z tych zaplanowanych akcji jest obliczona na wywo艂anie konkursu.
And each of these planned actions is designed to provoke a competition.
P贸藕niej sobie to wra偶enie oczywi艣cie mierzymy, albo badaniem satysfakcji, chocia偶 ja my艣l臋, 偶e w przypadku do艣wiadcze艅 pacjent贸w bardziej powinni艣my m贸wi膰 o bezwysi艂kowo艣ci.
Later, we obviously measure this impression, either through satisfaction surveys, although I think that in the case of patient experiences we should speak more about effortlessness.
Bo o ile w przypadku klient贸w mo偶emy m贸wi膰 o satysfakcji, to pacjent raczej unika do艣wiadczenia, nie chce tej us艂ugi, cz臋sto nie ma wyboru, nie mo偶e zrezygnowa膰.
Because when it comes to clients, we can talk about satisfaction, but a patient is rather avoiding the experience, does not want the service, often has no choice, and cannot opt out.
W zwi膮zku z tym bardziej powinni艣my stawia膰 na t膮 tak膮...
Therefore, we should focus more on this kind of...
艁atwo艣膰 we wsp贸艂pracy.
Ease of collaboration.
To ja bym to uj臋艂a mo偶e w takie sformu艂owanie
I would perhaps phrase it like this.
pomaga膰, nie przeszkadza膰.
help, don't hinder.
O, dok艂adnie. Dok艂adnie.
Oh, exactly. Exactly.
Czyli patient experience,
So patient experience,
do艣wiadczenie pacjenta ma pomaga膰, nie przeszkadza膰.
The patient's experience should help, not hinder.
Dok艂adnie tak. Jak si臋
Exactly that. How are you?
藕le czujemy, a pacjent
we feel bad, and the patient
no raczej jest w obni偶onej kondycji
well, it's rather in a deteriorated condition
psychofizycznej i nie potrzebuje dodatkowych
psychophysical and does not require additional ones
bod藕c贸w. Oj, mam histori臋 na ten temat.
stimuli. Oh, I have a story about that.
Nie wiem, czy ci opowiada艂am to,
I don't know if I told you this,
jak rozmawia艂e艣 wcze艣niej.
as you talked earlier.
Jak膮艣 histori臋 mi opowiada艂a艣, tak, tak, tak.
You were telling me some story, yes, yes, yes.
Chyba ci opowiada艂am o mojej, o jak dzwoni艂am do lekarza, jak mia艂am
I think I told you about my experience when I called the doctor, how I had...
gor膮czk臋. Tak, tak. No w艂a艣nie.
the fever. Yes, yes. Exactly.
I to jest ta bezwysi艂kowo艣膰. Ty po prostu
And this is the effortlessness. You just
chcia艂a艣 jak najszybciej za艂atwi膰
you wanted to get it done as soon as possible
swoj膮 potrzeb臋 i nie mia艂a艣
your need and you didn't have
si艂y ju偶 na dodatkowe
forces already for additional
pytania, wyja艣nienia, przechodzenia
questions, explanations, transitions
przez aplikacje, przeklikiwania si臋,
through the application, clicking through,
wybory i tak dalej. Po prostu ju偶 na to
elections and so on. I'm just already on it
autentycznie nie ma
there is genuinely none
zasob贸w, wi臋c jak my艣limy
resources, so how do we think
o tych do艣wiadczeniach pacjenta, to to jest w og贸le
About these patient experiences, that is in general.
podstawa, ta bezwysi艂kowo艣膰.
the basis, this effortlessness.
I ona te偶 si臋 na jako艣膰 b臋dzie
And she will also focus on quality.
p贸藕niej przek艂ada艂a. Tak, to jest
later she translated. Yes, it is
fajne to, co m贸wisz i to,
That's nice what you're saying and that,
co te偶 sobie powiedzia艂y艣my
what we said to each other
wcze艣niej, to jest jakby to,
Earlier, it's like this,
偶e ta dziedzina jest taka m艂oda i nie ma
that this field is so young and there is no
jeszcze tych zasad tak sztywnie
not those rules so rigidly yet
ustawionych. Nawet nie powiedzia艂abym, 偶e zasad,
set up. I wouldn't even say that it's rules,
bo tak w艂a艣ciwie te zasady
because, in fact, these rules
user experience czy customer experience
user experience or customer experience
one s膮, one dotycz膮 innych bran偶,
they exist, they concern other industries,
bo to nie jest co艣 nowego. Tylko tutaj
because it's not something new. Just here
troch臋 si臋 tak zaw臋偶amy,
we're kind of narrowing down a bit,
偶e ta nasza persona jest bardzo
that our persona is very
sprecyzowana. Tutaj mamy,
specified. Here we have,
jeszcze b臋dziemy sobie o tym m贸wi膰, 偶e tych person
we will still talk about this, that these people
jest bardzo du偶o tak naprawd臋 dla kogo
There is really a lot for whom.
projektujemy, no ale mamy
we design, well, but we have
powiedzia艂abym, 偶e nie persona, tylko to 艣rodowisko
I would say that it's not the persona, but the environment.
jest bardzo zaw臋偶one, no bo w艂a艣nie to s膮 te
it is very narrow, because these are exactly those
produkty, us艂ugi medyczne, czyli
medical products, services, that is
co艣 si臋 dzieje z naszym zdrowiem i oczywi艣cie
Something is happening with our health and of course.
jest ten wycinek powiedzmy takiej
here is this excerpt, let's say such
bardziej medycyny estetycznej, gdzie co艣
more aesthetic medicine, where something
poprawiamy, chcemy si臋 poczu膰 lepiej. No to tutaj bardziej jest
We are improving, we want to feel better. So here it's more.
klient, albo klientka. Tak.
client, or client woman. Yes.
I wtedy mo偶emy m贸wi膰 o tej satysfakcji. My艣l臋,
And then we can talk about that satisfaction. I think,
偶e to by艂oby bardzo dobre s艂owo, ale w momencie,
that it would be a very good word, but at the moment,
kiedy mamy jak膮艣 jednostk臋 chorobow膮,
when we have a specific disease,
jak te偶 tak fajna nomenklatura
what a cool nomenclature too
medyczna, nie chorob臋, tylko jednostk臋
medical, not disease, but an individual
chorobow膮, to
sick, it
faktycznie tutaj powiedzie膰 o tym,
actually to say about it here,
偶e kto艣 jest usatysfakcjonowany,
that someone is satisfied,
chocia偶 to s艂owo jest mery pojemne,
although this word is very broad,
偶e faktycznie,
that indeed,
偶e moja sprawa w艂a艣nie by艂a za艂atwiona
that my matter has just been resolved
i nie mia艂am niepotrzebnych nerw贸w, prawda?
And I didn't have unnecessary nerves, did I?
Czyli to pomaga膰, nie przeszkadza膰, by nam fajnie to
So it's about helping, not bothering, to make it nice for us.
podsumowa艂o t膮 definicj臋
summarized this definition
do艣wiadczenia pacjenta.
patient experiences.
Ale te偶
But also
poruszy艂y艣my fajny w膮tek, kt贸ry
we touched on a nice topic that
bardzo mnie zaciekawi艂
it intrigued me a lot
i my艣l臋, 偶e fajnie, 偶eby艣my do tego wr贸ci艂y.
And I think it would be nice for us to return to that.
Poruszy艂y艣my w poprzedniej rozmowie,
We touched on it in the previous conversation,
tak, 偶eby艣my jakby, wiesz, podcast nagrywa艂o
So that we, like, you know, record a podcast.
trzech godzin.
three hours.
Bo te偶
Because also
rozmawia艂y艣my sobie o r贸偶nicach
we were talking about the differences
w podej艣ciu mi臋dzy tym polskim
in the approach between this Polish
rynkiem, a zagranicznym. A ty
the market, and foreign. And you
masz troch臋 do艣wiadcze艅, troch臋 edukacyjnych
you have some experiences, somewhat educational
te偶. Mam na my艣li, 偶e po prostu
too. I mean that it's just
zdobywa艂a艣 edukacj臋 zagranic膮.
You obtained your education abroad.
I
I
chcia艂abym, 偶eby艣my sobie chwil臋 powiedzia艂a,
I would like us to talk for a moment.
偶eby艣 ty powiedzia艂a, podzieli艂a si臋 swoj膮 perspektyw膮,
so that you would speak up, share your perspective,
jak w艂a艣nie to patient experience
just like that, patient experience
wygl膮da, nie wiem, UK,
looks, I don't know, UK,
US, no bo te do艣wiadczenia masz,
US, well because you have those experiences,
versus w艂a艣nie jak to wygl膮da w Polsce.
versus this is how it looks in Poland.
No, my jeste艣my na dobrej drodze
No, we are on the right track.
i ju偶,
and that's it,
troch臋 rzeczy si臋 wydarzy艂o. Oczywi艣cie one s膮
a few things have happened. Of course they are
kontrowersyjne, bo powsta艂a ustawa o jako艣ci
controversial, because a law on quality was created
w ochronie zdrowia, ta, ona tam
in healthcare, yes, she there
spor膮 cz臋艣膰 po艣wi臋ca w艂a艣nie
devotes a large part to just
satysfakcji i jako艣ci w obs艂udze
satisfaction and quality in service
pacjenta. No, ale to
patient. No, but that's
wymaga czasu. W Stanach
it takes time. In the States
satysfakcja pacjent贸w jest
patient satisfaction is
mierzona, no, od po艂owy lat dziewi臋膰dziesi膮tych
measured, well, since the mid-nineties
to by艂y takie, takie zr臋by,
they were such, such frameworks,
takie pocz膮tki. W UK troch臋 d艂u偶ej.
Such beginnings. A bit longer in the UK.
Wi臋c wiadomo, 偶e oni mieli
So it's known that they had.
po prostu, no, dwadzie艣cia pi臋膰 lat, tak w skr贸cie
Just, well, twenty-five years, so in short.
m贸wi膮c, czasu
speaking, time
na testowanie, na poprawianie, testowanie
for testing, for improving, testing
i poprawianie. I oni doskonale
and improving. And they are perfect.
wiedz膮, co mierz膮.
they know what they are measuring.
Tych wska藕nik贸w w Stanach to jest
These indicators in the States are
ponad trzysta, wi臋c oni naprawd臋 bardzo
more than three hundred, so they really very
rzeczowo do tego podchodz膮.
They approach it in a matter-of-fact way.
I g艂贸wna r贸偶nica,
And the main difference,
my艣l臋, polega
I think, it depends.
na tym, por贸wnuj膮c te dwa rynki
on this, comparing these two markets
UK i Stany do naszego,
UK and the States to ours,
to jest powi膮zanie
this is a connection
satysfakcji pacjenta
patient satisfaction
z finansowaniem plac贸wek.
with the financing of institutions.
I z finansowaniem produkt贸w.
And with the financing of products.
Bardzo ciekawa miara.
Very interesting measurement.
W Stanach na przyk艂ad aplikacje,
In the States, for example, applications,
kt贸re dotycz膮 zarz膮dzania
which relate to management
swoim stanem,
his state,
swoim bardziej samopoczuciem
your well-being more
w przypadku os贸b z ADHD,
in the case of people with ADHD,
aplikacje s膮 przepisywane
applications are being rewritten
na recept臋. Wi臋c to nie dotyczy tylko i wy艂膮cznie
by prescription. So it's not only and exclusively about
pomiaru satysfakcji
measurement of satisfaction
w szpitalach, chocia偶 na to jest po艂o偶ony
in hospitals, although it is laid down for that
bardzo du偶y nacisk, ale dotyczy te偶
a very strong emphasis, but it also concerns
produkt贸w cyfrowych.
digital products.
W zwi膮zku z tym, tam naprawd臋 na t膮
In this regard, there is really something about that.
satysfakcj臋 wszyscy menad偶erowie
satisfaction of all managers
bardzo patrz膮 i wszyscy
they look very much and everyone
na ni膮 pracuj膮.
They are working for her.
No u nas jeszcze
Well, not yet for us.
pewnie,
sure,
chwil臋 to zajmie.
It will take a moment.
I opr贸cz tego, 偶e wyniki s膮,
And besides the fact that the results are,
偶e jak gdyby satysfakcja jest
that as if satisfaction exists
powi膮zana z finansowaniem.
related to financing.
Ale finansowaniem plac贸wki, prawda?
But funding the institution, right?
Tak, z finansowaniem plac贸wki, ale
Yes, with the funding of the institution, but
te偶 z refundacj膮 na przyk艂ad
also with a refund, for example
aplikacji.
application.
Ale to mi si臋 bardzo podoba, co
But I really like it, don't I?
m贸wisz, bo jednak zdrowie,
you say, because after all health,
mimo tego, 偶e je偶eli sprzedajemy
despite the fact that if we sell
jako us艂ug臋, jakie艣 us艂ugi
as a service, some services
dotycz膮ce zdrowia, tutaj
concerning health, here
miar膮 mog艂yby by膰,
they could be a measure of,
mog艂a by膰 konwersja, ile
there could have been a conversion, how much
zarabiamy na
we earn on
danym pacjencie i tak dalej, i tak
the given patient and so on, and so forth
dalej. Co prowadzi艂oby w mojej
go on. What would lead in my
ocenie do pewnych patologii, 偶e
I assess certain pathologies that
zamiast wyleczy膰 pacjenta, by艣my
instead of healing the patient, we would
leczyli tego pacjenta.
They treated this patient.
A dzi臋ki temu, 偶e ten wska藕nik jest
And thanks to the fact that this indicator is
zmieniony i to nie jest, ile
changed and it is not how much
ten pacjent u nas wyda przez
this patient will spend with us through
ten lifetime, znowu
this lifetime, again
troch臋 niefortunne okre艣lenie.
a somewhat unfortunate term.
My jeste艣my na tym etapie w艂a艣nie,
We are at this stage right now,
ile wyda.
how much will it cost.
No w艂a艣nie.
Exactly.
Ile wyda, ile razy wr贸ci.
How much he spends, how many times he comes back.
Dok艂adnie, zamiast powiedzie膰 o
Exactly, instead of saying about
tym, to m贸wimy o tej satysfakcji,
we're talking about that satisfaction,
co bardzo fajnie zmienia nam wektor
which changes our vector very nicely
na to, na co faktycznie powinni艣my
for what we should actually
zwr贸ci膰 uwag臋, bo znowu
to pay attention, because again
te wszystkie
all of them
czy produkty, czy aplikacje, one
whether products or applications, they
maj膮 poprawi膰 nasze samopoczucie i
they are supposed to improve our well-being and
poprawi膰 nasz膮 jako艣膰 偶ycia.
improve our quality of life.
To o to chodzi.
That's what it's all about.
I to te偶 jest mierzone.
And this is also measured.
Ta jako艣膰 偶ycia po skorzystaniu
This quality of life after using it.
z us艂ugi czy produktu te偶
from the service or product too
jest liczona.
It is being counted.
W zwi膮zku z tym to, jak szybko
In connection with this, how quickly
wracamy do zdrowia, to jak szybko
We're getting back to health, so how quickly?
wracamy na rynek pracy, to jak
We're returning to the job market, so what now?
szybko wracamy do aktywno艣ci
we quickly return to activity
sportowych, to wszystko jest
sports, everything is
wska藕nikiem do tego, czy faktycznie
an indicator of whether in fact
dany produkt, czy us艂uga, jest wskazany.
The given product or service is indicated.
Czy us艂uga zadzia艂a艂a.
Did the service work?
Tak. I m贸wisz, 偶e w Polsce jeste艣my
Yes. And you say that we are in Poland.
jednak na tym etapie, 偶e liczymy
however, at this stage, we are counting
powracalno艣膰, jak w sklepie
returnability, like in a store
internetowym.
online.
Tak, mierzymy lojalno艣膰.
Yes, we measure loyalty.
Nie bardzo lubi臋 t膮, to jest w og贸le
I don't really like this one, not at all.
ten zwrot lojalizacja, a ju偶 w og贸le
this phrase loyalty, and generally
lojalizacja pacjenta brzmi...
the patient loyalty sounds...
Kuriozalnie.
Curiously.
Tak, kuriozalnie brzmi, dok艂adnie,
Yes, it sounds absurd, exactly.
bo celem jednak powinna by膰 nie
because the goal should not be
powracalno艣膰 pacjenta.
patient recurrence.
Tylko wyleczenie.
Only healing.
Tylko wyleczenie i polecenia,
Only healing and recommendations,
czyli to
so that's it
opinie, kt贸rymi si臋
opinions, which we
dzielimy, no to jak gdyby, no ale
we're dividing, so it's like, well but
u nas si臋 bardziej stawia na t膮
we place more emphasis on this
w艂a艣nie
exactly
lojalizacj臋, ale
loyalization, but
jest jeszcze...
there is still...
Ale w pi臋knych, okr膮g艂ych s艂owach o tym m贸wimy.
But we talk about it in beautiful, round words.
No tak, ale tak jest.
Well, that's how it is.
Tak jest po prostu, no mierzymy tego
It is just like that, well, we are measuring it.
NPS-a i p贸藕niej patrzymy, czy
NPS and then we see if
poleci艂 i czy wr贸ci艂, tak? I liczymy
He recommended and whether he returned, right? And we are counting.
w艂a艣nie to CLV z tego pacjenta,
that's exactly the CLV from this patient,
z tego pacjenta biednego,
from this poor patient,
ale jest jeszcze jeden wymiar,
but there is one more dimension,
kt贸ry nas r贸偶ni pomi臋dzy
which distinguishes us between
tak szeroko m贸wi膮c, 偶e
so broadly speaking that
Zachodem.
The West.
I nami, mianowicie te wyniki s膮
And to us, namely these results are
publikowane i plac贸wki i
published and institutions and
w艂a艣ciciele produkt贸w maj膮
product owners have
obowi膮zek publikowa膰
obligation to publish
regularnie wyniki satysfakcji,
regularly satisfaction results,
co oznacza, 偶e ten produkt
what it means that this product
i us艂uga staj膮 si臋 bardziej
and the service becomes more
transparentne, mierzone s膮 w ten
transparent, they are measured in this
sam spos贸b, powtarzane badania
the same method, repeated studies
s膮 w tym samym czasie, co daje
they are at the same time, which gives
ewidentn膮 korzy艣膰 pacjentowi,
a clear benefit to the patient,
bo on ma mo偶liwo艣膰 por贸wnania
because he has the ability to compare
us艂ugi produkt贸w na rynku
product services in the market
medycznym, co jest bardzo trudne,
medical, which is very difficult,
bo nie posiadamy wiedzy,
because we do not have knowledge,
pojawiaj膮 si臋 r贸偶ne takie
various such things appear
zak艂贸cenia w stylu altmet,
disturbances in the style of altmet,
kt贸ry nie u艂atwia rzeczowego i
which does not facilitate a factual and
merytorycznego podej艣cia do por贸wnania us艂ug,
substantive approach to comparing services,
w zwi膮zku z tym w momencie, kiedy
In connection with this, at the moment when
T艂umacz jeszcze, co to jest ten altmet.
Translate what this altmet is.
To s膮 wszystkie alternatywne metody
These are all alternative methods.
podej艣cia do leczenia,
approaches to treatment,
czyli nie oparte o badania.
so not based on research.
Powiedzmy, jak medycyn臋 konwencjonaln膮,
Let's say, like conventional medicine,
jakby艣my to nazwali, a powiedzmy
how would we call it, let's say
jak膮艣 alternatywn膮. Dok艂adnie, wi臋c
some alternative. Exactly, so
raczej to jest pejoratywne
rather, it's pejorative
okre艣lenie, ten altmet.
definition, this altmet.
Wi臋c w momencie, kiedy
So at the moment when
instytucje pa艅stwowe, rz膮dowe
state institutions, government institutions
trzymaj膮 na tym r臋k臋
they are holding their hand on it
i w Stanach
and in the States
mamy t膮 instytucj臋 FDA,
we have the FDA institution,
kt贸ra gwarantuje
which guarantees
w jaki艣 spos贸b prawid艂owo艣膰
somehow correctness
dzia艂ania, legalno艣膰 badania
actions, legality of the investigation
i tak dalej, no to powoduje, 偶e to
and so on, well that causes it to
daje pacjentowi przewag臋
gives the patient an advantage
nad dokonaniem najlepszego w jego
at the completion of the best in his
mniemaniu wyboru co do produktu czy us艂ugi.
in the opinion of the choice regarding the product or service.
Tak, na nasz膮 te偶 aktualny stan
Yes, it's the current state for us as well.
wiedzy, bo wiadomo, 偶e
knowledge, because it is known that
te偶 medycyna ewoluuje,
medicine also evolves,
odkrywamy nowe
we are discovering new
rzeczy, dowiadujemy si臋 nowych rzeczy i te
things, we learn new things and those
zalecenia mog膮 si臋 zmienia膰, ale
recommendations may change, but
na aktualny stan wiedzy pacjent jest w stanie
Based on the current state of knowledge, the patient is capable.
podj膮膰 najlepsz膮 decyzj臋 dla siebie.
make the best decision for yourself.
Tak, ma narz臋dzia. Tak, dok艂adnie.
Yes, he has tools. Yes, exactly.
Ma narz臋dzia, wi臋c my powoli w tym
She has the tools, so we are slowly working on it.
kierunku zmierzamy.
which direction are we heading.
Takie badania s膮 prowadzone
Such studies are being conducted.
obecnie
currently
w Polsce w szpitalach. Jest taka organizacja
In Poland in hospitals. There is such an organization.
Centrum Miar i Jako艣ci
Center for Measurement and Quality
i oni w tym roku ju偶 przebadali 100 tysi臋cy
And they have already tested 100 thousand this year.
szpitali w taki wystandaryzowany, powtarzalny
hospitals in such a standardized, repeatable
spos贸b. Oko艂o 250
way. About 250
szpitali przyst膮pi艂o do tego badania.
hospitals participated in this study.
Wi臋c ju偶 mo偶na sobie
So now you can already...
co艣 por贸wna膰. No i oni w艂a艣nie badaj膮
compare something. And they are actually researching.
komunikacj臋, 偶ywienie,
communication, nutrition,
organizacj臋, opiek臋 piel臋gniarsk膮,
organization, nursing care,
zarz膮dzanie b贸lem.
pain management.
No tam jest ile艣 tych
Well, there are some of those.
wska藕nik贸w, kt贸re mo偶na
indicators that can
sobie jeden do jeden por贸wna膰
compare one to one
w ramach tych 250 szpitali. Wi臋c je偶eli
within these 250 hospitals. So if
szukasz jakiego艣 zabiegu,
are you looking for a treatment,
no to to jest dobre 藕r贸d艂o do tego,
well, this is a good source for that,
偶eby stwierdzi膰, ok, to jednak nie b臋d臋
to determine, okay, I won't after all
korzysta膰 z zabieg贸w w Warszawie, tylko
use treatments in Warsaw, only
we Wroc艂awiu na przyk艂ad.
in Wroc艂aw, for example.
Super. Bardzo, bardzo dobrze
Great. Very, very good.
jest to, 偶e zaczynamy to robi膰, zaczynamy mierzy膰
It is that we are starting to do it, we are starting to measure.
i dajemy pacjentom narz臋dzia
And we give patients the tools.
i w pewien spos贸b te偶 w艂adz臋 nad
and in a way also control over
tym, jak膮艣 decyzyjno艣膰 dotycz膮c膮
with some decisiveness regarding
w艂a艣nie stanu zdrowia.
just health condition.
W naszej rozmowie
In our conversation
jeszcze powiedzia艂a艣 co艣 fajnego, co mi si臋
you said something nice that I really like
mega spodoba艂o i
I really liked it and
chcia艂am do tego wr贸ci膰. U偶y艂a艣 w艂a艣nie
I wanted to come back to that. You just used it.
takiego cudownego okre艣lenia,
such a wonderful expression,
偶e do艣wiadczenie pacjenta to jest taki
that the patient experience is such a
dwug艂owy smok. Tak. I to mi si臋
a two-headed dragon. Yes. And I like that
strasznie spodoba艂o. I m贸wili艣my
I liked it a lot. And we talked.
wtedy o tym, 偶e to co si臋 dzieje online
then about what is happening online
jest tak samo wa偶ne, jak to
It is just as important as that.
co si臋 dzieje offline.
what happens offline.
Teraz powiedzia艂a艣 jeszcze o drugim
Now you mentioned the second one.
aspekcie tego dwug艂owego
aspect of this bicep
smoka.
dragon.
No w艂a艣nie, no bo 偶eby dostarczy膰
Exactly, because in order to deliver
to dobre do艣wiadczenie, to potrzebujemy
it's a good experience, we need it
i kadry zarz膮dzaj膮cej,
and the management staff,
i kadry administracyjnej,
and the administrative staff,
i kadry medycznej.
and medical staff.
I teraz to wszystko trzeba spi膮膰. Tutaj te grupy
And now everything needs to be tied together. Here are the groups.
mog膮 mie膰 r贸偶ne interesy,
they may have different interests,
cz臋sto maj膮 r贸偶ne interesy,
they often have different interests,
wi臋c to jest d艂uga i 偶mudna
so it is long and tedious
praca, taka strategiczna.
work, such a strategic one.
Dla co si臋 umawiamy, no i znowu wracaj膮c
What are we agreeing on, and once again going back?
do definicji do艣wiadcze艅.
to the definition of experiences.
Jakie do艣wiadczenia chcemy dostarcza膰,
What experiences do we want to provide,
w kt贸rym punkcie styku i jakich nie chcemy
at which contact point and which we do not want
do艣wiadcza膰 i jak b臋dziemy to robi膰. A na ko艅cu
to experience and how we will do it. And in the end
mamy tego pacjenta, kt贸ry
we have this patient who
spodziewa si臋, 偶e co艣 go spotka,
he expects something to happen to him,
b膮d藕 co艣 go nie spotka, no i decyduje
"Let something not happen to him, and then he decides."
czy to jest r贸偶nica, czy to jest
Is there a difference, or is it?
czy to jest suma.
Is this a sum?
My艣l膮c o tym do艣wiadczeniu pacjenta
Thinking about this patient experience
offline, online,
offline, online
w plac贸wce, w domu,
in the facility, at home,
no przecie偶 to nie chodzi o to, 偶e my
Well, it's not about the fact that we...
tam w tej aplikacji, w tym produkcie
there in this application, in this product
medycznym mamy sp臋dza膰 czas i si臋 dobrze bawi膰,
We should spend time in a medical environment and have a good time.
to nie jest Instagram, czy Duolingo,
This is not Instagram or Duolingo,
tylko chcemy za艂atwi膰 jak膮艣 spraw臋.
We just want to take care of some matter.
I teraz zastanawiam si臋,
And now I am wondering,
jakie pu艂apki czyhaj膮
What traps are lurking?
w tym projektowaniu do艣wiadcze艅 pacjenta,
in this designing of patient experiences,
je偶eli nie b臋dziemy pami臋ta膰 w艂a艣nie o tym
if we do not remember just about that
ca艂ym kontek艣cie offline,
in the entire offline context,
online, w szpitalu,
online, in the hospital,
w plac贸wce, w domu,
in the facility, at home,
to co tam si臋 kryje?
What is hidden there?
Co mo偶e p贸j艣膰 nie tak?
What could go wrong?
Jak to klasyk mawia, wszystko
As the classic says, everything.
mo偶e p贸j艣膰 nie tak.
things can go wrong.
Zacznijmy od pocz膮tku, my艣l臋, 偶e podstaw膮,
Let's start from the beginning, I think that the foundation is,
to te偶 o tym rozmawia艂y艣my
we talked about that too
na naszym ostatnim spotkaniu, 偶e w og贸le
at our last meeting, that at all
ochrona zdrowia,
health care,
niewa偶ne w jakim kanale, w jakim
it doesn't matter in which channel, in which
narz臋dziu, ona stoi na bezpiecze艅stwie
"tool, it stands on security"
i na jako艣ci. I teraz w zale偶no艣ci
and on quality. And now depending on
od tego, kto m贸wi o bezpiecze艅stwie i jako艣ci,
from the one who speaks about safety and quality,
no to b臋d膮 to
well, that will be it
troch臋 inne definicje, inaczej b臋dzie to definiowa艂
slightly different definitions, it will be defined differently
lekarz, no bo jego
doctor, well because of him
obowi膮zkiem jest dostarczy膰 jak najlepsz膮 us艂ug臋,
it is our duty to provide the best possible service,
pom贸c pacjentowi, ale te偶 ci膮偶y na nim
to help the patient, but it also weighs on him
odpowiedzialno艣膰 prawna za to, jak on dzia艂a
legal responsibility for how he operates
i co dostarcza. W przypadku
and what it delivers. In the case of
tej kadry niemedycznej, no oni
that non-medical staff, well they
te偶 pracuj膮 na bezpiecze艅stwo i na jako艣膰,
they also work on safety and quality,
no bo tu jest i zarz膮dzanie dokumentacj膮,
because there is also document management here,
zarz膮dzanie przep艂ywem informacji,
information flow management,
zarz膮dzanie kolejk膮 pacjent贸w
patient queue management
i
I
dopilnowanie, 偶eby wszystko dzia艂a艂o, po prostu 偶eby
making sure that everything works, just so that
rzeczy si臋 dzia艂y. Natomiast z punktu widzenia
things are divided. However, from the point of view
pacjenta, no to rozmawiamy
Patient, well then let's talk.
po prostu o jego
just about his
chyba no najpierwszej potrzebie,
probably in the first need,
jak膮 jest zdrowie i dobre funkcjonowanie,
what health and good functioning is,
wi臋c i on b臋dzie to ocenia艂
So he will evaluate it.
no na pewno niemerytorycznie,
Well, certainly not substantively,
bo nie jest lekarzem, nie ma takiej wiedzy,
because he is not a doctor, he does not have such knowledge,
tylko b臋dzie to ocenia艂 bardziej emocjonalnie,
he will only evaluate it more emotionally,
no i im jego stan b臋dzie trudniejszy, tym wi臋cej
Well, and his condition will be more difficult, the more.
emocji b臋dzie si臋 pojawia膰, wi臋c kluczem
emotions will appear, so the key
jest chyba zdefiniowanie na pocz膮tku
There is probably a definition at the beginning.
jak膮
what
jako艣膰 my chcemy dostarczy膰, pami臋taj膮c
We want to deliver quality, remembering.
o bardzo szerokim kontek艣cie tej persony,
about the very broad context of this persona,
o kt贸rej rozmawiamy, bo ta persona
what time are we talking about, because this persona
b臋dzie, to nie b臋d膮 tylko lekarze, piel臋gniarki,
it will not only be doctors, nurses,
plac贸wka
facility
i otoczenie, czy produkt, ale te偶 na przyk艂ad
and the environment, or the product, but also, for example
opiekunowie, albo
caretakers, or
pacjentem jest dziecko,
the patient is a child,
a decydentem jest rodzic, wi臋c wtedy nam si臋
and the decision-maker is a parent, so then we have
w og贸le, nie mamy jednej persony, tylko
In general, we don't have one persona, only...
mamy dwie podstawowe persony, bo jest i dziecko
We have two primary personas because there is also a child.
i rodzic i musimy spe艂ni膰 troch臋 inne
And the parent and I have to meet a slightly different
oczekiwania, wi臋c no musimy
expectations, so we have to
na pocz膮tku wykona膰 bardzo
at the beginning do very
rzeteln膮 prac臋, te偶
reliable work, too
badawcz膮.
research.
Takie pu艂apki nas czekaj膮 w艂a艣nie w tym pierwszym
Such traps await us precisely in this first one.
kroku, w tym kroku badawczym.
step, in this research step.
No nierozpoznanie potrzeb psychologicznych
Well, the failure to recognize psychological needs.
na przyk艂ad. Okej.
for example. Okay.
Nierozpoznanie potrzeb psychologicznych, czyli
Failure to recognize psychological needs, that is
jak na przyk艂ad ma wygl膮da膰
for example, how is it supposed to look like
obs艂uga
service
obs艂uga dziecka w obecno艣ci
childcare in the presence
opiekuna.
guardian.
Bo mo偶na si臋 skupi膰 tylko
Because one can only focus
i wy艂膮cznie na opiekunie, a pozostawi膰
and exclusively on the guardian, and to leave
niezaopiekowane emocjonalnie dziecko,
emotionally neglected child,
nie zadba膰 o komfort, o dobre
not taking care of comfort, of good
emocje, o dobr膮 wsp贸艂prac臋, b膮d藕
emotions, for good cooperation, be
na odwr贸t, mo偶na w og贸le pomin膮膰 opiekuna
On the contrary, one can completely skip the guardian.
i to bardziej w przypadku
and it is more so in the case of
pacjent贸w starszych, w przypadku
older patients, in the case of
senior贸w, kiedy wchodz膮 do gabinetu
seniors when they enter the office
albo korzystaj膮 z us艂ug,
or they are using services,
do kt贸rych potrzebuj膮 w艂a艣nie
which they need right now
osoby towarzysz膮cej opiekuna, no i mo偶na
accompanying person of the caregiver, well, and one can
po prostu zapomnie膰 o potrzebach
just forget about the needs
jednej ze stron. I wtedy
one of the sides. And then
zaczynaj膮 si臋 komplikacje, mo偶na
complications are beginning, one can
zrobi膰 najpi臋kniejszy
to make the most beautiful
interfejs, on mo偶e by膰 prosty
interface, it can be simple
w u偶yciu, mo偶e by膰
in use, it may be
intuicyjny.
intuitive.
Albo nawet do艣wiadczenie w samej plac贸wce, bo to te偶 jest ciekawe,
Or even experience in the institution itself, because that's also interesting,
je偶eli mamy w艂a艣nie te dwie persony
if we have just these two personas
i wiemy o tym, 偶e jest osoba,
and we know that there is a person,
kt贸ra przychodzi z opiekunem, niewa偶ne
which comes with a guardian, it doesn't matter
jakby tu kwestia wieku,
it's like the issue of age,
bo tak w艂a艣ciwie
because actually
tak, dok艂adnie,
yes, exactly,
ale jakby wiemy, 偶e tutaj mamy, 偶e tak powiem
but as if we know that we have here, so to speak
brzydko, dw贸ch aktor贸w,
ugly, two actors,
kt贸rzy podchodz膮, nie wiem, do recepcji
who are approaching, I don't know, to the reception
czy nawet wype艂niaj膮 jakie艣 dokumenty,
do they even fill out any documents,
no to musimy wzi膮膰 pod uwag臋 to, 偶e
well, we have to take into account that
to b臋d膮 dwie osoby, a nie jedna. I mo偶na
It will be two people, not one. And you can.
w艂a艣nie, 偶e tak powiem, skiep艣ci膰
I would say, to screw up.
to i w tym produkcie cyfrowym
so in this digital product
i w tej us艂udze cyfrowej.
and in this digital service.
Tak, bo tutaj te偶 w gr臋 wchodz膮
Yes, because here it also comes into play.
na przyk艂ad umiej臋tno艣ci cyfrowe
for example digital skills
i pos艂ugiwanie si臋 produktami
and using the products
cyfrowymi. Kolejna warstwa, prawda?
digital. Another layer, right?
Jeden aktor, jak to 艂adnie go nazywa艂a艣,
One actor, as you beautifully called him,
jeden aktor b臋dzie bieg艂y i b臋dzie to dla niego
one actor will be running and it will be for him
naturalne, a drugi na przyk艂ad b臋dzie mia艂 problemy
natural, and the other one, for example, will have problems
z widzeniem, z niedowidzeniem
with sight, with low vision
i nie b臋dzie si臋 potrafi艂 p艂ynnie
and he will not be able to speak fluently
pos艂ugiwa膰 po aplikacji.
serve through the application.
Tak偶e albo wype艂ni膰 dokument贸w w plac贸wce
So either fill out the documents at the office.
na przyk艂ad, bo b臋dzie druk
for example, because there will be printing
na formularzach zbyt ma艂y.
too small on the forms.
Bez mo偶liwo艣ci
Without possibility
na przyk艂ad powi臋kszenia.
for example enlargements.
A to jest prosta rzecz, prawda?
And this is a simple thing, right?
Wszystkie te rzeczy s膮 proste, tylko
All these things are simple, only
najgorzej zrobi膰 b艂膮d
It's worst to make a mistake.
w za艂o偶eniach, w艂a艣nie w tej personie,
in the assumptions, precisely in this persona,
jak si臋
how are you
nie dopilnuje wszystkich szczeg贸艂贸w.
I won't oversee all the details.
Oczywi艣cie wiadomo, 偶e prawdopodobnie
Of course, it is known that probably
nie mo偶na zadba膰, nie da si臋,
it cannot be taken care of, it cannot be done,
to w kolejnych iteracjach mo偶na p贸藕niej poprawia膰,
In subsequent iterations, it can be improved later.
ale ta rzetelna praca na pocz膮tku
but this thorough work at the beginning
jest bardzo istotna, 偶eby wzi膮膰
it is very important to take
pod uwag臋, po prostu, no tak jak w CX
take into account, just, well just like in CX
si臋 m贸wi, albo w PX, wej艣膰 w buty klienta,
it is said, either in PX, to step into the customer's shoes,
wej艣膰 w buty pacjenta i naprawd臋 czasami
to step into the patient's shoes and really sometimes
oczy si臋 szeroko otwieraj膮,
the eyes widen,
o czym w og贸le nie pomy艣leli艣my,
what we didn't think about at all,
a to jest tak oczywiste, tak jak teraz powiedzia艂e艣,
and it is so obvious, just like you said now,
偶e powi臋kszenie tekstu, tak? To jest oczywiste,
that enlarging the text, right? It's obvious,
nie? Ale jednak my mamy
No? But still, we have.
tak膮, znaczy ciekaw膮,
such, means interesting,
nie wiem czy ciekaw膮, no bo
I don't know if it's interesting, because...
ciekawa to jest dobre s艂owo, bo my z miary neutralne,
"Interesting is a good word, because we are neutral by measure."
histori臋, kt贸r膮
the story that
opowiada艂a nam nasza PMK Dorota
our PMK Dorota told us
jaki艣 czas temu, kt贸ra ma
some time ago, which has
szcz臋艣cie trafi艂a do szpitala
Happiness ended up in the hospital.
z barkiem
with a shoulder
i powiedzia艂a... To bolesne dosy膰.
And she said... It's quite painful.
Tak, bolesne do艣wiadczenie, ale
Yes, a painful experience, but
to co nam opowiada艂a by艂o jeszcze
what she was telling us was still
bardziej bolesne, bo powiedzia艂a,
more painful, because she said,
偶e w szpitalu
that in the hospital
by艂y telewizory, za kt贸re
there were televisions for which
trzeba by艂o, czyli jedyna mo偶liwo艣膰
it had to be, which means the only option
zap艂acenia za ogl膮danie tej telewizji
payment for watching this television
by艂a za pomoc膮 blika
it was done using Blik
i wiele os贸b, kt贸re w艂a艣nie nie by艂y
and many people who just were not
na tyle bieg艂e, 偶e nie posiada艂y
sufficiently proficient that they did not possess
tej technologii, nie wiedzia艂y nawet co to jest
they didn't even know what this technology was
ten blik, by艂y pozbawione
this flash was devoid
mo偶liwo艣ci jakiego艣 zabicia czasu
options for killing some time
w pewien spos贸b w tej plac贸wce medycznej
in a way at this medical facility
no i musia艂y chodzi膰 szuka膰 jakiej艣 m艂odszej
And they had to go looking for some younger one.
osoby, kt贸ra pomog艂aby im obs艂u偶y膰
a person who would help them operate
tego blika i m贸c po prostu
this blik and simply be able to
ogl膮da膰 sobie t膮 familiad臋 czy
watching that Family Feud or
jakikolwiek inny program przyrodniczy
any other nature program
na kt贸ry mia艂aby ochot臋.
that she would like.
To nie ma znaczenia, ale po prostu
It doesn't matter, but just
to jak prawdopodobnie
so it's probably
projektantom mog艂o si臋 wydawa膰
designers might have thought
genialnym pomys艂em siedz膮c
a brilliant idea sitting
na sali warsztatowej i generuj膮c
in the workshop hall and generating
pomys艂, no to dajmy im mo偶liwo艣膰 zap艂acenia
The idea is to give them the option to pay.
z wysi艂kow膮. Dok艂adnie. Okazuje si臋,
with effort. Exactly. It turns out that,
偶e jest to praktycznie niemo偶liwe do wykonania
that it is practically impossible to accomplish
ze wzgl臋du w艂a艣nie na t膮 barier臋
due to this barrier
cyfrow膮. To te偶 fajnie podkre艣la
digital. It also nicely emphasizes
r贸偶nic臋 mi臋dzy
the difference between
pacjentem a klientem,
the patient and the client,
bo w przypadku
because in the case of
organizacji
organization
mo偶na stwierdzi膰,
it can be stated,
m贸wi臋 o produktach powszechnych,
I'm talking about common products,
niezwi膮zanych ze zdrowiem, m贸wi臋 o takich produktach,
not related to health, I'm talking about such products,
z kt贸rych nie mamy jako艣 wi臋kszej
from which we don't have any greater
relacji emocjonalnej. 艁atwo
emotional relationship. Easy
nam powiedzie膰, ok dobra to odcinamy
Let us know, okay good, we are cutting off then.
tych co nie obs艂uguj膮 blika,
those that do not support Blik,
no bo wiadomo, 偶e
because it is obvious that
idziemy do przodu, z czasem po prostu te
We're moving forward, with time just those.
grupy konsument贸w nam si臋 b臋d膮
consumer groups will be for us
zast臋powa膰. Tak, p艂acenie rachunk贸w tu mog艂o by膰 fajnym
to replace. Yes, paying bills here could have been fun.
przyk艂adem, bo ka偶dy musi to robi膰,
as an example, because everyone has to do it,
a jednak te sposoby s膮 r贸偶ne. Dok艂adnie.
However, these methods are different. Exactly.
Ca艂y czas trzymaj膮c si臋 tej analogii
All the time sticking to this analogy.
do sposobu p艂atno艣ci,
to the payment method,
kto艣 sobie b臋dzie p艂aci艂 blikiem za ten rachunek,
someone will be paying for this bill with Blik,
a kto艣 p贸jdzie na poczt臋 i wype艂ni
Someone will go to the post office and fill it out.
druczek. Dok艂adnie, tak, ale s膮 te dwie mo偶liwo艣ci.
The form. Exactly, yes, but there are these two possibilities.
A w przypadku o tym, o kt贸rym
And in the case of the one about which
powiedzia艂a艣, no jak gdyby
you said, well, like
zosta艂o wdro偶one bardzo dobre rozwi膮zanie,
a very good solution has been implemented,
no tylko, 偶e zapomniano o tym,
well, it was just forgotten about,
偶e to s膮 grupy
that these are groups
w艂a艣nie nie klient贸w,
not clients,
tylko pacjent贸w,
only patients,
kt贸rzy maj膮 inne potrzeby. Ich pierwsz膮 potrzeb膮
who have different needs. Their primary need
nie b臋dzie ogl膮danie Familiady,
there will be no watching of Familiada,
to te偶 jest wa偶ne.
this is also important.
Tak, jego figur臋 retoryczn膮 zabieramy.
Yes, we are taking his rhetorical figure.
Tak, dok艂adnie, oczywi艣cie tak, czy
Yes, exactly, of course, yes, or
innego programu
another program
podobnego do reporta偶u, natomiast
similar to a documentary, however
to nie b臋dzie pierwsza potrzeba, natomiast
it won't be a primary need, however
mo偶e znacznie poprawi膰 jako艣膰.
it can greatly improve quality.
Jako艣膰, dok艂adnie. W艂a艣nie i znowu wracam
Quality, exactly. That's right, and I鈥檓 back again.
do tej jako艣ci, 偶e
to such quality that
wydawa艂oby si臋, 偶e zupe艂nie banalny krok
it would seem to be a completely trivial step
b臋dzie wp艂ywa艂 na ocen臋 jako艣ci.
will affect the quality assessment.
I teraz tak, czy
And now, so are you...
wprowadzenie p艂atno艣ci
introduction of payments
przez Blika za telewizj臋 wp艂ywa
Through Blik, it affects the television.
na ocen臋 jako艣ci dostarczan膮
for the quality assessment provided
przez lekarza? Albo wyleczenie
by a doctor? Or a cure
tego pacjenta totalnie nie wp艂ywa,
this patient is totally unaffected,
ale na to jak ja si臋 czuj臋 b臋d膮c
but about how I feel being
w tym szpitalu wp艂ywa bardzo.
In this hospital, a lot is happening.
I te偶 wp艂ywa to na to, czy je偶eli dostan臋
And it also affects whether if I get
kolejne skierowanie, to ja
another referral, that's me
z ch臋ci膮 p贸jd臋 do szpitala, znaczy
I will gladly go to the hospital, I mean.
nikt raczej nie p贸jdzie z ch臋ci膮, ale przynajmniej
nobody will probably go willingly, but at least
z takim prze艣wiadczeniem, 偶e ok,
with the conviction that it's okay,
jest w porz膮dku,
it's fine,
czy b臋d臋 my艣la艂a znowu o tym
Will I think about it again?
przykrym do艣wiadczeniu, kt贸re spotka艂o mnie ostatnim
a unpleasant experience that happened to me recently
razem. To jest wykluczanie po prostu.
Together. This is just exclusion.
Wydawa艂oby si臋, 偶e rzecz b艂aha, natomiast
It would seem to be a trivial matter, however
w momencie, kiedy
at the moment when
tak si臋 nad tym g艂臋biej zastanowi膰,
to think about it more deeply,
to jest to po prostu wykluczenie. Bior膮c pod uwag臋
this is simply exclusion. Considering
te偶 jak nasze spo艂ecze艅stwo wygl膮da, no i wiadomo, 偶e
also how our society looks, and it is known that
chorujemy wraz z up艂ywem wieku, wi臋c w szpitalu
We get sick as we age, so in the hospital.
raczej jest wi臋cej os贸b starszych ni偶
there are rather more older people than
m艂odszych. Tak, ok. To wracaj膮c
younger. Yes, okay. So coming back.
do mojego pytania o pu艂apki,
to my question about traps,
kt贸re w艂a艣nie czyhaj膮 na
which are just lurking for
nas projektant贸w,
us designers,
czy w艂a艣nie CX, czyli Customer Experience,
is indeed CX, or Customer Experience,
czy UX, User Experience,
is UX, User Experience,
to powiedzia艂y艣my sobie o tych problemach
we talked about these problems
na samym pocz膮tku, czyli problemy
At the very beginning, that is, problems.
z za艂o偶eniami, kt贸re
with the assumptions that
mamy, dalej problemy
we still have problems
z
z
samym odbiorc膮, person膮, 偶e nie jest
the recipient itself, the persona, that it is not
ona do ko艅ca zdefiniowana. Potem mamy jakie艣
She is defined until the end. Then we have some.
problemy badawcze, 偶e tych bada艅 tak w艂a艣ciwie
research problems, that these studies actually
nie ma, czy tego rozpoznania
there is none, whether this diagnosis
艣rodowiska. Co jeszcze mo偶e si臋 pojawi膰?
environments. What else might emerge?
Tutaj mi przychodzi na my艣l,
Here I am reminded of,
by艂o takie badanie zrobione
There was a study conducted.
przez Deloitte'a za 2023
by Deloitte for 2023
rok. Ono nie dotyczy艂o
year. It did not concern
stricte ochrony zdrowia, ono dotyczy艂o
strictly health protection, it concerned
wszystkich bran偶, ale Deloitte
all industries, but Deloitte
zapyta艂 r贸wnie偶 w Polsce,
he also asked in Poland,
za co, za jakie do艣wiadczenia
for what, for what experiences
p艂acili klienci w 2023
customers paid in 2023
roku. I Polacy
year. And the Poles
orzekli jednog艂o艣nie, 偶e p艂acili
they unanimously ruled that they had paid
za to, 偶eby by艂o 艂atwo,
for making it easy,
szybko i komfortowo. To za to p艂ac膮,
quickly and comfortably. That's what they pay for,
otwieraj膮 swoje portfele,
they open their wallets,
natomiast bardzo nie
however, very no
lubi膮, je偶eli ich
they like it when their
za偶alenia,
complaints,
reklamacje, pr贸ba kontaktu
complaints, attempt to contact
zwrotnego s膮 trudne.
Returns are difficult.
To wyj膮tkowo
It's exceptional.
nas irytuje i my艣l臋, 偶e to
It irritates us and I think that it
dobrze si臋 wpisuje te偶 w ochron臋 zdrowia,
it also fits well into health care,
bo opieka nad pacjentem
because patient care
nie ko艅czy si臋 w momencie wizyty
it doesn't end at the moment of the visit
albo przeklikania si臋 przez aplikacj臋,
or clicking through the application,
tylko ten proces trwa.
only this process is ongoing.
I to wra偶enie ko艅cowe,
And that's the final impression,
z艂e wra偶enie
bad impression
ko艅cowe, mo偶e absolutnie zatrze膰
final, can absolutely blur
wszystkie pozytywne do艣wiadczenia,
all positive experiences,
kt贸re mia艂y miejsce wcze艣niej.
that took place earlier.
I to ju偶 ta strata jest nie do odrobienia.
And this loss is already irreparable.
Wi臋c trzeba te偶 my艣le膰
So you also have to think.
o tych ko艅c贸wkach i o tym, co si臋 dzieje
about those endings and what is happening
po wizytach, po us艂udze,
after visits, after the service,
po zakupieniu produktu
after purchasing the product
i tak dalej. Te ko艅c贸wki s膮 bardzo
and so on. These endings are very
wa偶ne.
important.
Czyli pu艂apki czekaj膮
So the traps are waiting.
na nas praktycznie
on us practically
na ca艂ej 艣cie偶ce, gdzie planujemy
On the entire path where we plan
do艣wiadczenie pacjenta.
patient experience.
I jakbym
And as if I
mia艂a wyci膮gn膮膰 taki wniosek
she was supposed to draw such a conclusion
z tego, co powiedzia艂a艣, to
from what you said, it is
musimy jako
we must as
w艂a艣ciciele us艂ug medycznych
owners of medical services
czy produkt贸w medycznych
or medical products
bardzo dobrze zastanowi膰 si臋
it's very good to think it over
nad za艂o偶eniami i mie膰
above the assumptions and have
艣wiadomo艣膰 ca艂y czas,
awareness all the time,
mie膰 艣wiadomo艣膰 gdzie艣 z ty艂u g艂owy
to have an awareness in the back of one's mind
problem贸w i wyzwa艅, jakie maj膮
problems and challenges they have
nasze osoby,
our people,
osoby, kt贸re korzystaj膮 z naszego produktu.
People who use our product.
Tak, ja mog臋 powiedzie膰 o swoim przypadku,
Yes, I can talk about my case,
nie b臋d臋 wymienia膰 nazwy,
I won't mention the name,
ale
but
jedna z firm
one of the companies
bardzo podchodz膮ca nowocze艣nie
very modern-approaching
do ochrony zdrowia.
to health care.
Ja si臋 tam oczywi艣cie z za艂o偶膮cej konto
I will of course sign up there.
przez jaki艣 czas korzystam i
I've been using it for some time and
oni bardzo mocno stawiali na diagnostyk臋.
They placed a strong emphasis on diagnostics.
Zapraszali do tej diagnostyki,
They invited for this diagnosis,
przypominali, co mi si臋 bardzo podoba艂o.
They reminded me of what I really liked.
I nie wiem dlaczego oni w kt贸rym艣 momencie
And I don't know why they at some point
przestali to robi膰 i ja musz臋 powiedzie膰, 偶e ja odczuwam
they stopped doing it and I have to say that I feel
zaw贸d, bo dla mnie to by艂o
a profession, because for me it was
odci膮偶enie, 偶e kto艣 pami臋ta,
relief that someone remembers,
偶e ja raz na jaki艣 czas powinnam wykona膰 jakie艣
that I should do something once in a while
badania diagnostyczne dla w艂asnego
diagnostic tests for personal use
bezpiecze艅stwa, po prostu dla profilaktyki.
safety, just for prevention.
No i musz臋 powiedzie膰, niby nic si臋 wielkiego
And I have to say, it's like nothing big is happening.
nie sta艂o, ale kontakt si臋 urwa艂
It didn't happen, but the contact was lost.
i ja nad tym ubolewam.
I regret that as well.
Okej, okej. Czyli jakbym
Okay, okay. So if I were to...
mia艂a spojrze膰 z takiej perspektywy biznesowej,
she was supposed to look from such a business perspective,
to by艂a jaka艣,
that was some,
jaki艣 charakter marki, jaka艣 propozycja
some brand character, some proposal
warto艣ci, jak to lubimy
values, as we like them
m贸wi膰 w UX, czyli po prostu
speaking in UX, or simply
czym si臋 ta marka wyr贸偶nia i marka
What sets this brand apart and the brand?
przesta艂a to robi膰 i pewnie
she stopped doing it and probably
nie wiadomo dlaczego. Prawdopodobnie im si臋
it's unknown why. Probably they are
wydaje, 偶e nikt tego nie zauwa偶y艂,
it seems that no one noticed this,
a ty teraz masz w pewien spos贸b
and you now have in a way
poczucie zawodu,
feeling of disappointment,
bo nie jest to...
because it is not...
Brakuje mi tej warto艣ci po prostu.
I simply miss that value.
Bo przestali dostarcza膰 to, co
Because they stopped delivering what
by艂o wa偶ne.
it was important.
A powiedz mi jeszcze
And tell me still
o samych pacjentach, jakby艣my si臋 mog艂y
About the patients themselves, as if we could...
chwil臋 skupi膰 na pacjentach, jakie s膮 te偶 oczekiwania
focus for a moment on the patients, what their expectations are as well
pacjent贸w, bo powiedzia艂y艣my troch臋 o mapowaniu
patients, because we talked a bit about mapping
tej 艣cie偶ki, o tym co mo偶e p贸j艣膰 nie tak,
this path, about what could go wrong,
ale jakie s膮 oczekiwania pacjent贸w i te偶
but what are the expectations of the patients and also
na co s膮 gotowi, a na co nie s膮 gotowi
what they are ready for and what they are not ready for
w ochronie zdrowia?
in healthcare?
Oczekiwania co do ochrony zdrowia
Expectations regarding health care
s膮 dosy膰 zbie偶ne. Ilo艣膰 takich raport贸w
are quite similar. The number of such reports
powsta艂o, pocz膮wszy od
it was created, starting from
2019 roku
year 2019
i niezale偶nie od
and regardless of
grupy wiekowej, te oczekiwania
age group, those expectations
s膮 zbie偶ne, czyli 艂atwa dost臋pno艣膰,
they are convergent, meaning easy accessibility,
kr贸tkie kolejki, 艂atwy kontakt,
short queues, easy contact,
rzetelny, profesjonalny,
reliable, professional
merytoryczny lekarz,
substantive doctor
tempo zdrowienia i tak dalej.
the pace of recovery and so on.
Natomiast r贸偶nice si臋 pojawiaj膮
However, differences do appear.
w momencie, kiedy
at the moment when
rozmawiamy o
we are talking about
szybko艣ci realizacji
speed of execution
i o cierpliwo艣ci do b艂臋d贸w,
and about patience for mistakes,
kt贸re pope艂nia produkt
which is committed by the product
czy miejsce,
is the place,
w kt贸rym si臋 leczymy.
in which we are being treated.
No i to chyba jest znowu
Well, that's probably it again.
taka charakterystyka zbie偶na dla
such a convergent characteristic for
wszystkich bran偶. Im m艂odsze
all industries. The younger
pokolenie, im jeste艣my m艂odsi, tym
the younger we are as a generation, the more
mniejsz膮 wykonywujemy,
we perform a smaller one,
tym mniej wybaczamy, o tak.
the less we forgive, oh yes.
Tym mniej wybaczamy, jeste艣my bardziej
The less we forgive, the more we are.
surowi w ocenach
strict in evaluations
i te偶 jest bezpo艣redni zwi膮zek
and there is also a direct connection
w
w
kwotach, jakie p艂acimy za us艂ugi. Im
the amounts we pay for services. The more
wi臋cej p艂acimy, te wymagania rosn膮.
We pay more, these requirements are increasing.
Pokolenie
Generation
baby boomers贸w najbardziej jest
most of the baby boomers are
wybaczaj膮ce, a p贸藕niej jak ju偶 schodzimy
forgiving, and then when we are already descending
ni偶ej, to jest
below, this is
coraz gorzej z tym wybaczeniem i z t膮
it's getting worse with this forgiveness and with this
cierpliwo艣ci膮.
with patience.
Te偶 jest bardzo
It is also very
du偶e oczekiwanie co do wyja艣nienia,
great expectation for an explanation,
co b臋dzie dalej. Im jeste艣my
What will come next. Who we are.
m艂odsi, tym bardziej nie
the younger, the more not
lubimy by膰 zaskakiwani. Lubimy przewidywalno艣膰
We like to be surprised. We like predictability.
i to wynika te偶 z tempa 偶ycia,
and it also results from the pace of life,
z ilo艣ci obowi膮zk贸w, kt贸re mamy,
from the number of responsibilities we have,
z planowania swojego dnia
from planning your day
pracy czy nauki.
work or study.
W zwi膮zku z tym nie lubimy
As a result, we do not like.
by膰 zaskakiwani. To zaskakiwanie,
to be surprised. This surprising,
brak informacji,
no information,
brak kontaktu, nieprzewidywalno艣膰
lack of contact, unpredictability
w planowaniu te偶 wp艂ywa na jako艣膰,
planning also influences quality,
wi臋c to jest tak jakby kolejny kamyczek
so it's like another pebble
do tego, o czym wcze艣niej rozmawia艂y艣my,
to what we talked about earlier,
偶e znowu to
that again
planowanie komunikacji na ka偶dym
communication planning at every level
kroku, oczywi艣cie nie mo偶emy zarzuci膰 te偶
step, of course we cannot blame also
nadmiern膮 liczb膮 komunikat贸w
excessive number of messages
naszego pacjenta, natomiast
our patient, however
ta przewidywalno艣膰 jest bardzo wa偶na, bo ona si臋
this predictability is very important because it is
sk艂ada na jako艣膰.
contributes to quality.
Je偶eli wiemy, co si臋 b臋dzie dzia艂o albo wiemy, 偶e
If we know what will happen or we know that
co艣 si臋 nie wydarzy z jakiego艣 powodu i
something will not happen for some reason and
znamy przyczyn臋, to wtedy jeste艣my bardziej sk艂onni
we know the reason, then we are more inclined
to wybaczy膰.
to forgive.
A czy s膮 jakie艣 elementy albo jakie艣
Are there any elements or any
nie wiem, fragmenty mo偶e
I don't know, maybe fragments.
produkt贸w medycznych, na kt贸re nie jeste艣my gotowi,
medical products that we are not ready for,
nie wiem, 偶eby by艂y scyfryzowane
I don't know if they are digitized.
albo nie chcemy w pewien spos贸b,
or we don't want to in a certain way,
albo mo偶e nie chcemy w艂a艣nie w ten tradycyjny spos贸b
or maybe we don鈥檛 want to do it in that traditional way
tych us艂ug
these services
czy
whether
produkt贸w cyfrowych jako艣
digital products in some way
z nich korzysta膰? Czy widzisz
to use them? Do you see?
co艣 takiego w艣r贸d pacjent贸w?
Something like that among the patients?
My艣l臋, 偶e jest wr臋cz odwrotnie.
I think it is quite the opposite.
W og贸le
At all
jako nar贸d kochamy
as a nation we love
nowinki technologiczne i w og贸le je
technological news and in general it
adoptujemy bardzo szybko, znacznie szybciej ni偶
we adopt very quickly, much faster than
nasi s膮siedzi z Europy.
our neighbors from Europe.
Co dowodem na to jest
What is the evidence for that?
ostatni case, nie b臋d臋 przywo艂ywa艂a nazwy
the last case, I won't mention the name
tej strony internetowej.
this website.
W og贸le trudno doj艣膰 kto jest
It's hard to figure out who is.
w艂a艣cicielem, kto j膮 postawi艂. Natomiast
the owner, who put it up. However
no ewidentnie tak od strony patrz膮c zza plecza
Well, obviously looking at it from behind.
to by艂o wyci膮ganie danych medycznych.
It was data extraction of medical records.
Ok, to od zakonu ta strona polega艂a?
Okay, so this page was based on the order?
Strona polega艂a na tym, 偶e kupujesz
The website was about you buying.
abonament, jest kilka
subscription, there are a few
plan贸w dost臋pnych,
available plans,
uploadujesz do tej platformy
you are uploading to this platform
swoj膮 dokumentacj臋 medyczn膮,
your medical documentation,
wypisy, wyniki
excerpts, results
bada艅, opinie, no jak gdyby wszystko,
research, opinions, well, as if everything,
co masz na sw贸j temat. No i ta
What do you have to say about yourself? And that.
platforma teoretycznie
theoretically platform
powinna ci postawi膰 diagnoz臋, da膰
She should give you a diagnosis, give you.
jaki艣 opis, co dalej, rekomendacje i tak dalej.
some description, what next, recommendations and so on.
Z tym, 偶e tam po drugiej stronie w og贸le nie by艂o 偶adnego
With the fact that there was absolutely no one on the other side.
lekarza, tam nie by艂o 偶adnego medyka.
There was no medic there.
Tam by艂 podpi臋ty
It was plugged in there.
czat po prostu. A, czat
Just chat. Oh, chat.
GTP, kt贸ry by艂 naszym lekarzem.
GTP, who was our doctor.
Kt贸ry by艂 naszym lekarzem, no ale ten czat
Which was our doctor, well, but this chat.
GPT on nie jest jeszcze na tym
GPT is not yet on that.
etapie, 偶eby tak膮 prac臋 wykonywa膰.
stage to perform such work.
Poza tym to zawsze jednak powinno
Besides, it should always, however, be.
by膰 przepuszczone przez
to be passed through
oko lekarza. Natomiast no
the eye of the doctor. However, no
bardzo ludziom si臋 to spodoba艂o,
many people liked it very much,
bo to by艂o te偶 proste rozwi膮zanie.
because it was also a simple solution.
Bezwysi艂kowe, o w艂a艣nie, no by艂o bezwysi艂kowe.
Effortless, oh exactly, it was effortless.
Zap艂ac臋 50 z艂otych albo
I will pay 50 zlotys or
70 za kolejny plan,
70 for the next plan,
za艂aduj臋 te dane i dostan臋
I will load this data and get it.
szybk膮, prost膮 odpowied藕. Natomiast w regulaminie
a quick, straightforward answer. However, in the regulations
by艂o jasno napisane, 偶e portal nie bierze za nic
It was clearly written that the portal takes no responsibility for anything.
odpowiedzialno艣ci, to nie s膮 parady medyczne
responsibility, these are not medical parades
i w og贸le to w zasadzie
and basically that's it
ta informacja
this information
zwrotna w 偶aden spos贸b nie jest wi膮偶膮ca.
The return is in no way binding.
Wi臋c my zdecydowanie
So we definitely
lubimy nowinki,
we like novelties,
lubimy rozmawia膰 z chatbotami, nawet si臋 zgadzamy
we like talking to chatbots, we even agree
na to, 偶eby z tym chatbotem rozmawia膰
to talk to this chatbot
zamiast na przyk艂ad z lekarzem,
instead of, for example, with a doctor,
byle by艂 on
as long as it's him
pod kontrol膮 i merytoryczny.
under control and substantive.
Wi臋c otwarto艣膰 mamy du偶膮, bym powiedzia艂a na ryzyka.
So we have a great openness, I would say, to risks.
Okej, bardzo ciekawe,
Okay, very interesting,
bo te偶 jaki艣 czas temu
because some time ago
rozmawia艂am z osobami, kt贸re
I talked to people who
projektuj膮 chatboty i w艂a艣nie
they design chatbots and just
one m贸wi艂y w drug膮 stron臋, 偶e
they were saying the other way, that
mamy przesyt
we have an excess
rozm贸w w艂a艣nie
just talking
nie z tym fizycznym cz艂owiekiem, tylko w艂a艣nie
not with this physical person, but rather
dzwoni臋 gdzie艣 na infolinie
I'm calling somewhere on the hotline.
i znowu rozmawiam
And I'm talking again.
z maszyn膮 i ona znowu nie rozumie, co ja do niej m贸wi臋.
With the machine and it still doesn't understand what I'm saying to it.
Tutaj wydaje mi si臋, 偶e
Here it seems to me that
fajnie to zahacza o to, co wcze艣niej
It's cool how it touches on what was before.
powiedzia艂a艣, czyli o ten brak cierpliwo艣ci,
you said, that's about the lack of patience,
znaczy brak, dosy膰 niski pr贸g
It means a lack, quite a low threshold.
je偶eli chodzi o nasz膮 cierpliwo艣膰
as for our patience
oraz bardzo niski pr贸g
and a very low threshold
wybaczenia b艂臋d贸w, bo je偶eli
forgiving mistakes, because if
taki chatbot si臋 wiele razy
such a chatbot does many times
pomyli albo my powtarzamy co艣, a on nie rozumie
He confuses something, or we repeat something, and he doesn't understand.
naszej sprawy, no to faktycznie
our case, well that's actually true
mo偶emy si臋 bardzo szybko te偶 zniech臋ci膰.
We can also get discouraged very quickly.
Wi臋c z jednej strony
So on one hand
chcemy szybkiej obs艂ugi w nocy
we want quick service at night
czyli chcemy z tym chatbotem rozmawia膰,
so we want to talk to this chatbot,
a z drugiej strony bardzo si臋 denerwujemy,
on the other hand, we are very concerned,
je偶eli on nie daje nam tej
if he doesn't give us this
dobrej diagnozy, czy nawet odpowiedzi na
a good diagnosis, or even an answer to
jakie艣 pytanie zwi膮zane z innego obszaru.
any question related to another area.
Je偶eli rozmawiamy o tych samych badaniach
If we are talking about the same studies.
i o tych samych do艣wiadczeniach, to
and about the same experiences, it
ja kojarz臋 taki w膮tek, 偶e
I associate such a thread that
my lubimy te
we like these
chatboty
chatbots
pod warunkiem, 偶e mamy mo偶liwo艣膰 wyboru,
provided that we have the option to choose,
偶e jak ju偶 si臋 zm臋cz臋 rozmow膮 z tym chatbotem
that when I get tired of talking to this chatbot
albo on po prostu gada jakie艣
or he's just talking some nonsense
bzdury po prostu wypisuje, to ja
I'm just talking nonsense, that's me.
chc臋 mie膰 mo偶liwo艣膰 p艂ynnego prze艂膮czenia si臋
I want to have the ability to switch smoothly.
na rozmow臋 z cz艂owiekiem,
for a conversation with a person,
ale to generalnie dop贸ki ten chatbot daje rad臋
but generally as long as this chatbot can handle it
to jest w porz膮dku.
It is okay.
I to te偶 fajnie te偶 zatacza p臋tl臋
And that's cool too, it also comes full circle.
wobec jakiej艣 takiej psychologii
in relation to some kind of psychology
naszej
our
i tej psychologii 艂膮cz膮cej si臋 z UX-em,
and this psychology related to UX,
bo podobny przyk艂ad,
because a similar example,
znaczy w podobny spos贸b
means in a similar way
dzia艂aj膮
they operate
aplikacje do zamawiania taks贸wek,
taxi ordering applications,
偶e nam nie zale偶y na tym,
that we don't care about it,
偶eby ta taks贸wka by艂a za minut臋, za pi臋膰,
so that the taxi arrives in a minute, in five,
czy za dziesi臋膰, to nie ma a偶 tak du偶ego wp艂ywu
Is it not such a big impact in ten?
dop贸ki nie wiemy kiedy ona b臋dzie.
until we know when she will be.
Przewidywalno艣膰.
Predictability.
Chodzi o przewidywalno艣膰.
It's about predictability.
S膮 pewne zasady w艂a艣nie UX-owe,
There are certain rules that are specifically related to UX.
kt贸re wynikaj膮 z psychologii,
which stem from psychology,
kt贸re pomagaj膮 nam projektowa膰
which help us design
czy do艣wiadczenia pacjenta, czy szerzej
either patient experiences or more broadly
do艣wiadczenia u偶ytkownik贸w jako takie.
user experiences as such.
I je偶eli znamy te zasady,
And if we know these rules,
wiemy, potrafimy
we know, we can
z nich korzysta膰 i jakby
to use them and like
projektowa膰 produkty,
design products,
kt贸re b臋d膮 czerpa艂y te fajne
which will draw from those cool
wzorce z psychologii,
patterns from psychology,
no to faktycznie mo偶emy
Well, we can indeed.
zminimalizowa膰 te b艂臋dy,
minimize these mistakes,
i jako艣 zaopiekowa膰 si臋
and somehow take care of
oczekiwaniami pacjenta.
patient's expectations.
Albo wpa艣膰 na dobre tropy.
Or to get on the right track.
Co to znaczy dla ciebie
What does it mean to you?
wpa艣膰 na dobre tropy?
to be on the right track?
Jakie pytania zada膰?
What questions to ask?
Bo czasami dobrze zadane pytanie
Because sometimes a well-asked question
przerzuca nas na inn膮 艣cie偶k臋
it puts us on a different path
i powoduje, 偶e warto zbada膰
and it makes it worthwhile to investigate
inne w膮tki, co艣 doda膰,
other threads, to add something,
co艣 uj膮膰, no to znowu s膮 te badania
to capture something, well, there are those studies again
i dobrze zadane pytania
and well-posed questions
i zbudowane podstawy,
and the foundations were built,
te za艂o偶enia, na kt贸rych p贸藕niej chcemy bazowa膰.
the assumptions on which we want to base later.
A powiedzia艂a艣 co艣
And did you say something?
fajnego, co te偶 utkwi艂o mi w g艂owie,
cool, which also stuck in my mind,
o tym, 偶e
that
niezale偶nie od tego, do kogo
regardless of who
adresujemy w tej naszej dzia艂ce medycznej
we address in this medical field of ours
dany produkt, czy w艂a艣nie do personelu
the given product, or just to the staff
medycznego, czy do pacjenta,
medical, or to the patient,
czy nie wiem, do administracji,
I don't know, to the administration,
to jest ta cz臋艣膰 wsp贸lna zwi膮zana z jako艣ci膮
this is the common part related to quality
i bezpiecze艅stwem.
and safety.
I teraz zastanawiam si臋, jakby艣my zesz艂y
And now I wonder how we would go down.
do detalu, jak te r贸偶ne grupy
to detail, like these different groups
w og贸le rozumiej膮 t膮 jako艣膰
They generally understand this quality.
i bezpiecze艅stwo.
and safety.
Co taki na przyk艂ad
What such for example
produkt dla lekarzy,
product for doctors,
dla personelu medycznego,
for medical staff,
musi w sobie mie膰, 偶ebym
must have in itself, for me to
ja jako, powiedzmy, nie wiem, piel臋gniarka,
I as, let's say, I don't know, a nurse,
czy osoba, nie wiem,
I don't know if the person,
rejestratorka, rejestrator,
registrar, registrar
偶ebym ja si臋 czu艂a bezpiecznie i 偶ebym,
so that I would feel safe and that I,
偶eby ten produkt by艂 dobry.
for this product to be good.
Chyba podstaw膮 to jest
I think that's the basis.
przechowywanie danych i przetwarzanie tych danych.
data storage and processing of that data.
Natomiast je偶eli
On the other hand, if
chodzi o wsp贸lny mianownik w jako艣ci
It's about a common denominator in quality.
pomi臋dzy tymi
between these
trzema stronami, to jest chyba
three sides, that's probably it
tak skonstruowany interfejs
such a constructed interface
i tak zrobiona 艣cie偶ka,
and the path is made like that,
kt贸ra
which
minimalizuje liczby czynno艣ci
minimizes the number of actions
do wykonania i pozostawia jak najwi臋cej
to be completed and leaves as much as possible
czasu na kontakt z pacjentem.
time to contact the patient.
Bo wizyty 艣rednio trwaj膮 od
Because visits usually last from
10 minut, one s膮 przekraczane tam
10 minutes, they are exceeded there.
do 20 nawet albo i wi臋cej.
up to 20 or even more.
Po prostu ze wzgl臋du na potrzeb臋
Simply due to the necessity.
zdrowotn膮 i te偶 zrobienie
health-related and also doing
dobrej diagnozy. No i tutaj
good diagnosis. And here
niebagateln膮 rol臋 odgrywa
plays a significant role
te偶 oprogramowanie czy aplikacja,
also software or application,
na kt贸rej si臋 pracuje. No bo je偶eli ona b臋dzie
on which one works. Well, if it is going to be
wymaga艂a wielu czynno艣ci,
required many actions,
przeklikiwania si臋,
clicking through
poszukiwania danych,
data search,
wracania, jeden z
returning, one of
produkt贸w gabinetowych
office products
do zarz膮dzania w艂a艣nie gabinetem
to manage the office
ma jedn膮 tak膮 funkcj臋, kt贸ra powoduje, 偶e jak
it has one such function that causes that when
chcesz wr贸ci膰 do danych
Do you want to return to the data?
z poprzedniej wizyty albo z jeszcze poprzedniej wizyty,
from the previous visit or from the one before that,
to musisz si臋 wylogowa膰 i zalogowa膰
You need to log out and log back in.
raz jeszcze, bo nie ma takiej mo偶liwo艣ci.
Once again, because there is no such possibility.
Pewnie jest to w roadmapie, kto艣 to doda,
It is probably in the roadmap, someone will add it.
natomiast obecnie
however currently
tej funkcjonalno艣ci
this functionality
nie ma, wi臋c
there isn't, so
ta jako艣膰, wsp贸lny mianownik to jest po prostu
this quality, the common denominator is simply
czas, bo oczekujemy i on jest
Time, because we are waiting and he is.
potrzebny i lekarzowi,
needed by the doctor,
bo on wtedy ma czas
because he has time then
na tego pacjenta, ma czas na niego spojrze膰,
for this patient, he has time to take a look at him,
ma czas pos艂ucha膰,
he has time to listen,
co on m贸wi, jakim tonem g艂osu,
what he says, in what tone of voice,
jak si臋 zachowuje,
how it behaves,
jak膮 ma mow臋 cia艂a. To te偶 jest wa偶ne
What kind of body language does she have? That's important too.
z punktu widzenia diagnozy. W momencie, kiedy
from the perspective of diagnosis. At the moment when
on tylko m贸wi,
he only says,
natomiast wzrok ma skierowany w ekran,
but their gaze is directed at the screen,
no to ta diagnostyka
well, that diagnostics
mo偶e by膰 nieco zubo偶ona.
it may be somewhat impoverished.
A z perspektywy pacjenta, po tej drugiej
And from the patient's perspective, after this second one.
stronie? To jest te偶 czas,
side? This is also a time,
po艣wi臋cony na
dedicated to
obs艂ug臋 tego pacjenta i na
the care of this patient and on
nawi膮zanie relacji, bo bardzo cz臋sto
establishing a relationship, because very often
pacjenci doceniaj膮, nie s膮 w stanie
patients appreciate, they are unable
oceni膰 merytoryki.
to assess the substance.
R贸偶ni bywaj膮, tak jak w innych zawodach,
They can vary, just like in other professions,
r贸偶ni bywaj膮 lekarze, jeden jest bardziej kontaktowy,
Doctors can vary, some are more approachable.
mniej kontaktowy, ale to nie wp艂ywa na to,
less contact-oriented, but that doesn鈥檛 affect it,
jak merytorycznie on jest mocny.
how strong he is substantively.
Wi臋c zdecydowanie
So definitely
znowu technologia
again technology
mo偶e wspom贸c
may assist
zbudowanie tej relacji z
building this relationship with
lekarzem, dzi臋ki temu, 偶e jest wi臋cej czasu.
a doctor, thanks to having more time.
A powiedz mi,
And tell me,
jak odnios艂aby艣 si臋 do stwierdzenia,
how would you relate to the statement,
偶e pacjenci k艂ami膮?
that patients lie?
To jest mocne stwierdzenie.
This is a strong statement.
No k艂ami膮,
They're not lying,
konfabuluj膮, nie przyznaj膮 si臋.
They are confabulating; they do not admit it.
I do czego
And what for
tutaj zmierzam?
Where am I heading?
Zmierzam do tego, 偶e te偶
I mean that too.
jaka艣 taka kompletno艣膰 naszej historii
some kind of completeness of our history
medycznej.
medical.
Ja tutaj u偶y艂am dosy膰 mocnego
I used quite a strong one here.
sformu艂owania, 偶e pacjenci k艂ami膮, ale
such statements that patients are lying, but
oni si臋 nie przyznaj膮.
They will not admit it.
Albo nie pami臋taj膮 te偶 wszystkiego.
Or they don't remember everything either.
I teraz w momencie, kiedy pacjent musi powtarza膰
And now, at the moment when the patient has to repeat.
dziesi膮temu lekarzowi, do kt贸rego idzie
to the tenth doctor he is going to
od pocz膮tku swoj膮 histori臋
from the beginning its story
medyczn膮 i
medical and
wyci膮ga膰 z g艂owy r贸偶ne wyniki,
to pull various results out of one's head,
czy w艂a艣nie co si臋 kiedy wydarzy艂o,
What just happened?
mo偶e po prostu tego nie pami臋ta膰, wi臋c
maybe just not remember it, so
automatycznie ta jego historia
automatically his story
medyczna b臋dzie niekompletna.
The medical report will be incomplete.
Przez co dostarcza mniej informacji
Because it provides less information.
lekarzowi i
to the doctor and
lekarz nie jest w stanie da膰
the doctor is unable to give
bardziej trafnej diagnozy.
more accurate diagnosis.
Tak, tak.
Yes, yes.
Czyli te偶 jest brak
So there is also a lack.
jednego centralnego miejsca,
one central place,
gdzie by艂yby wszystkie dane medyczne.
Where would all the medical data be?
Albo chocia偶by jaka艣
Or at least some
teczka pacjenta online,
online patient file,
ale w艂a艣nie znowu wracamy do tego
but we're getting back to this again
bezpiecze艅stwa danych, o kt贸rych powiedzia艂a艣,
data security that you mentioned,
czyli jako艣膰 i bezpiecze艅stwo.
that is quality and safety.
Te dwa wsp贸lne elementy,
These two common elements,
kt贸re s膮 po偶膮dane
which are desirable
w produktach medycznych.
in medical products.
I nawi膮偶臋 do tej strony, o kt贸rej powiedzia艂a艣.
And I will refer to that page you mentioned.
Tam teoretycznie
There theoretically
mo偶na by艂o za艂adowa膰 swoj膮 dokumentacj臋
You could upload your documentation.
medyczn膮 i mog艂aby by膰 taka funkcja,
medical and there could be such a function,
偶e ja po prostu sobie przechowuj臋 te dane
that I simply keep this data to myself
poza t膮 diagnoz膮,
besides this diagnosis,
no ale znowu, kto jest w艂a艣cicielem tych danych?
But again, who owns this data?
Czy one s膮 bezpieczne? Czy one nie zostan膮
Are they safe? Will they not be?
przechwycone albo usuni臋te kiedy艣?
Captured or removed once?
Jakie ja mam jako pacjent
What do I have as a patient?
gwarancje, 偶e
guarantees that
kto艣 nie
someone not
u偶yje kiedy艣 tych danych
I will use this data someday.
w jaki艣 niegodziwy spos贸b,
in some wicked way,
a jednocze艣nie chcia艂abym p贸j艣膰 na wizyt臋
At the same time, I would like to go for a visit.
i w艂a艣nie nie traci膰 tego czasu,
and just not waste that time,
to o czym powiedzia艂a艣,
what you said,
da膰 lekarzowi jak najwi臋cej danych?
Give the doctor as much information as possible?
Jezu, t臋gie g艂owy nad tym pracuj膮
Jesus, smart heads are working on this.
i nie ma dobrego rozwi膮zania.
And there is no good solution.
I to te偶 s膮
And these are too.
ustalenia na poziomie Unii Europejskiej.
arrangements at the European Union level.
Bo to nie jest tylko
Because it is not just
gromadzenie i przetwarzanie danych
collection and processing of data
w ramach jednego kraju, no ale my si臋 przemieszczamy.
within one country, but we are moving around.
Przecie偶 nasze ubezpieczenie dzia艂a nie tylko
After all, our insurance works not only
w Polsce, ale poza Polsk膮. W zwi膮zku z tym
in Poland, but outside of Poland. In this regard
ta wymiana danych powinna by膰 te偶 mi臋dzy krajami.
This data exchange should also occur between countries.
My艣l臋, 偶e wytrychem
I think it鈥檚 a key.
tutaj dla zarz膮dzania danymi
here for data management
i wsp贸艂dzielenia tych danych jest
and sharing this data is
na chwil臋 obecn膮 aplikacja IKP.
Currently, the IKP application.
W kt贸rej mo偶esz udost臋pni膰 swoje
In which you can share your
dane medyczne, czyli histori臋 chor贸b,
medical data, meaning medical history,
wyniki bada艅, recepty
test results, prescriptions
i leki, kt贸re za偶ywasz i w jakich dawkach.
and the medications you take and in what dosages.
Mo偶esz udost臋pni膰 farmaceucie,
You can share with the pharmacist,
mo偶esz udost臋pni膰 lekarzowi, piel臋gniarce po艂o偶nej,
you can share it with a doctor, nurse, midwife,
rodzinie, przyjaciom.
to family, to friends.
Gdyby ty decydujesz,
If you decide,
komu te dane udost臋pniasz. Wi臋c to na t膮 chwil臋
Who are you sharing this data with? So that's it for now.
to jest jakie艣
this is something
rozwi膮zanie. Ale te偶 czy te dane
solution. But also whether this data
w IKP s膮 bezpieczne? By艂 ju偶 przypadek
Are they safe in IKP? There was already a case.
chyba rok temu
probably a year ago
z poprzednim ministrem zdrowia, kt贸ry
with the previous Minister of Health, who
ujawni艂 tam jakie艣 dane pacjenta
he disclosed some patient data there
na temat tego, jakie leki
about what medications
za偶ywa. Wi臋c
uses. So
no w艂a艣nie, to bezpiecze艅stwo danych jest
Exactly, that data security is.
my艣l臋 kluczowe. Tak, ale
I think it's key. Yes, but
dzisiaj tego nie rozwi膮偶emy i nie wiemy
We won't solve this today and we don't know.
jak b臋dzie wygl膮da艂a przysz艂o艣膰
what will the future look like
i bezpiecze艅stwo naszych danych medycznych.
and the security of our medical data.
Ja 偶ycz臋 i sobie
I wish for myself too.
i tobie i te偶 wszystkim
and to you and also to everyone
pacjentom, 偶eby jednak by艂o
to the patients, so that it is still there
centralne miejsce, gdzie
central place where
te dane s膮 przechowywane, 偶eby艣my
these data are stored so that we
nie musieli mie膰 jeszcze
they didn't have to have yet
dodatkowego obci膮偶enia w postaci
additional burden in the form of
kompletowania
completing
naszej teczki medycznej.
our medical folder.
I tym
And this
troch臋 optymistycznym akcentem
with a somewhat optimistic tone
przysz艂o艣ciowym
future-oriented
bardzo ci dzi臋kuj臋 za nasz膮
thank you very much for our
dzisiejsz膮 rozmow臋. A ja ci dzi臋kuj臋
Today's conversation. And I thank you.
za zaproszenie i jestem bardzo zadowolona,
Thank you for the invitation, and I am very pleased.
偶e Patient Experience trafia
that Patient Experience is on target
na szersze wody i zaczyna si臋 o tym
to broader waters and it starts with this
bardzo otwarcie m贸wi膰. Dzi臋ki.
to speak very openly. Thank you.
Dzi臋kuj臋 bardzo.
Thank you very much.
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